EditorsAbout the SiteComes vs. MicrosoftUsing This Web SiteSite ArchivesCredibility IndexOOXMLOpenDocumentPatentsNovellNews DigestSite NewsRSS

06.09.09

Mono Critique Almost a Taboo in Ubuntu Forums, Ideas, Bugs, and Mailing Lists

Posted in GNU/Linux, Microsoft, Mono, Novell, Ubuntu at 5:41 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

“I saw that internally inside Microsoft many times when I was told to stay away from supporting Mono in public. They reserve the right to sue”

Robert Scoble, former Microsoft evangelist

Summary: There is no route through which to communicate with Ubuntu regarding the Mono problem

IN the Ubuntu Web site where ideas are being proposed, some appointed moderators were seen diverting people who raise concerns about Mono to bug reporting sections. But Jeff Enns makes the fair point that: “you are not describing a bug with mono. The forums would be a better place for discussion, not bug reports. Thank you.” Tony Manco spotted this one yesterday.

“[P]eople who voice concerns about Mono are sent around in loops and their freedom of expression is hence compromised.”So basically, people who voice concerns about Mono are sent around in loops and their freedom of expression is hence compromised. It’s the same in the forums and even in the mailing lists (although raising the issue more politely would not hurt). Thanks to Tony Manco for noticing and notifying about this. Those who express dissatisfaction with the inclusion of Mono by default* are treated as though they are enemies. But why? By whom?

A Microsoft-born company (well, created by former Microsoft employees**) that advances Mono further is now given a spot in OStatic. Their article is not about their advancement of Mono***, but it does show how Microsoft can intersect with channels of communication about Free/open source software.

Another one of our readers says that Miguel de Icaza “FUDS Google Chrome. He’s concerned that it might violate the LGPL.” Here is part of his message:

We are on a similar situation with Moonlight where we ended up distributing proprietary codecs for VC1 (also MPEG-LA licensed) instead of the open source ffmpeg.

Today our answer for those that want to use ffmpeg (and it is my personal choice as well, since I rather dogfood open source software) is to compile Moonlight from source code and use the ffmpeg code themselves instead of depending on proprietary codecs to be installed.

The codecs that the user relies on are imposed by the publisher, not chosen by the receiver. This means that pretending that Microsoft Moonlight is fine without Microsoft binaries is purely deceit. It ought to be added that APIs too (e.g. Silverlight) can be a patent liability, with or without codecs.
______
* Choice is fine, but to force patent liability upon people is plainly dangerous, maybe irresponsible.
** MindTouch was last mentioned here as it helps a certain Microsoft land grab.
*** There is at least one Microsoft employee who is even working directly on Mono.

Share this post: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages.
  • Digg
  • del.icio.us
  • Reddit
  • co.mments
  • DZone
  • email
  • Google Bookmarks
  • LinkedIn
  • NewsVine
  • Print
  • Technorati
  • TwitThis
  • Facebook

If you liked this post, consider subscribing to the RSS feed or join us now at the IRC channels.

Pages that cross-reference this one

22 Comments

  1. Needs Sunlight said,

    June 9, 2009 at 7:21 am

    Gravatar

    I’m concerned that there’s been an upturn in de Icaza interviews and quotes. M$ marketing companies usually only pull his chain when they need him to make noise or distraction. Recently, an editor tried to piggy-back him into a summary with respectable people.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    The same goes for Mono (and Moonlight) at a less personal level.

    Remember that Microsoft said that Silverlight is not available for GNU/Linux because of Novell’s work. Regulators would have otherwise forced Microsoft to properly support GNU/Linux, so it’s not as though Novell saved the day. It only keeps a proper (first-class and indemnified) port of Silverlight away.

    Mackenzie Reply:

    You say that as if a version of Silverlight released for Linux would be DFSG-free, like Moonlight is. Yeah, right! This way, we get Free Software, not proprietary junk.

    Also:
    The general concensus on that Ubuntu mailing list thread is that there are currently no good, let alone BETTER, GTK replacements for those applications. If you want them to be replaced, write something worth replacing them with. Whinging doesn’t cut it.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    You say that as if a version of Silverlight released for Linux would be DFSG-free, like Moonlight is. Yeah, right! This way, we get Free Software, not proprietary junk.

    Microsoft cannot distribute software for GNU/Linux and say “touch this and we’ll sue you.” If someone clones it, then it’s another story. See the Moonlight covenant for details.

    The general concensus on that Ubuntu mailing list thread is that there are currently no good, let alone BETTER, GTK replacements for those applications. If you want them to be replaced, write something worth replacing them with.

    Mono applications being better is a fallacy. And by neglecting ‘non-Mono’ applications (through exposure to userbase) you guys are leading to self-fulfilling prophecies.

    Mackenzie Reply:

    Uh…why can’t Microsoft distribute closed-source software for Linux?

    It is not a fallacy. Look at your Mono alternatives list. Do you honestly believe that GThumb can do everything (and more!) that F-Spot can do? I guess you took the TARDIS for a spin and grabbed some amazingly good version of GThumb that actually has features from 2015.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    Uh…why can’t Microsoft distribute closed-source software for Linux?

    I said the opposite. They can. Like Adobe Flash.

    Bear in mind that Moonlight is not Silverlight. It’s hardly intended to be on par in legal and technical terms.

    Do you honestly believe that GThumb can do everything (and more!) that F-Spot can do?

    I have never used F-Spot myself (I install kde-desktop on all my Ubuntu machines), but based on what I hear, F-Spot is not a leader in its league.

    By the way, I don’t know who Fink is. If rude messages/language are used when linking here, it’s not to be attributed to me and I don’t control this, either. And thanks for debating this, Mackenzie. It needs an open discussion because there are eternally unanswered questions and TomTomVFAT as precedence.

    Like all of you folks, my goal is to spread GNU/Linux and I like Ubuntu. But I fear that you refuse to see obstacles simply because you don’t want them to be obstacles. It neither about will nor faith; it’s about the facts.

    Chris Reply:

    > If you want them to be replaced, write something worth replacing them with. Whinging doesn’t cut it.

    This will never happen cause then those sad fuckers actually would have to do something productive instead of insulting other peoples work.

    And we all know that’s a no go for boy & his shills.

  2. Juan Pablo Angamarca said,

    June 9, 2009 at 10:51 am

    Gravatar

    Mark Shuttleworth himself said that Ubuntu wouldn’t live under the fear of threat until it arises. Maybe that could be a valid position *for the time being*, but they should start doing something about the threat that comes along with Mono *now*. I have Mono installed on my Ubuntu machine, just for one application: Gnome Subtitles. And I do that just because there’s no other subtitling software that works properly on my machine. I wish someone would do with Gnome Subtitles what the Gnote team did. I think Gnome Subtitles is the only application that outperforms any other patent encumbered-free application, and it would be nice to see an effort to replace it too.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    Mark Shuttleworth himself said that Ubuntu wouldn’t live under the fear of threat until it arises.

    He thanked me for information that I sent him last month regarding Moonlight. They are at least listening. For what it’s worth, PJ from Groklaw also criticised that stance of Mark Shuttleworth (the context being Mono).

    Juan Pablo Angamarca Reply:

    Yeah, they are at least listening. It would be awful to not even have a response. They should do what Fedora and Debian are doing.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    A lot of people mistake “remove from default installation” for “remove from repository”.

  3. DOUGman said,

    June 9, 2009 at 11:00 am

    Gravatar

    I use Ubuntu derivatives as well, the ONLY mono application that I use is Gnome Desktop. I do know that there are other terminal clients applications available, but I have never taken the time to do any sort of comparison, perhaps I should, based on how much more bloated Tomboy was as opposed to G-Note.

    On another note, pun intended. I have have been using Basket Notepad for almost a year now and in my opinion it is very good.

    http://basket.kde.org/

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    I’m surprised we didn’t have it on the list already. I’ve just added it.

  4. Aaron Fulkerson said,

    June 9, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    Gravatar

    Roy,

    Thanks for the link-love on my post about Collaborative Networks (http://cli.gs/cn). I think you might also appreciate a post I wrote about enterprise open source at the MindTouch Blog: http://www.mindtouch.com/blog/2009/04/22/80-of-the-functionality-for-500-of-the-cost/

    At MindTouch we employ what I think of as an open core business model. I write about this here: http://www.mindtouch.com/blog/2009/04/22/an-open-core-licensing-model/

    I think you’ll be pleased to know MindTouch saves a penguin for every upgrade of MindTouch core: http://ostatic.com/blog/upgrade-mindtouch-or-the-penguin-gets-it :-)

    Finally, has it ever occurred to you that Mono could actually be subversive to the Microsoft business model and revenue generation? #justsayin

  5. eet said,

    June 10, 2009 at 8:19 am

    Gravatar

    This whole blog entry is nothing but whining about a free process of forming of opinion where Anti-Mono agitators don’t get any special preferred treatment.

  6. Marcus Koze said,

    June 10, 2009 at 9:05 am

    Gravatar

    Why would they be agitators ? Why should we welcome software from m$ and it’s accolites without a single “hmm”, as you, the mono-defenders wish would happen ? as i;ve said it, i’ll say it again: unlike the claims that FOSS (Linux and other projects) violates some hundreds of m$ patents, i truly think this mono *is* a “trojan-horse” for m$ and “poor” little novell to milk some cash in courts and as a side-effect, slow the adoption of free-software (at least).

    As far as i stand, you can take your slice of mono and go into your dark corner on your windoze machine & do whatever you want.

    And to Ubuntu/Canonical… at least open up some discussion channels and talk about the issues… if so many worry about it, why not listen, as you always did ?

  7. eet said,

    June 10, 2009 at 9:29 am

    Gravatar

    According to you every programmer that doesn’t work on Linux is an MS-accolite, hm?

    Well, do whatever you feel like, and good luck for your search of the last of that dying race – the mono-less distributions. You are part of a very vocal but nonetheless shrinking minority; bear your fate like a man and cut back a bit on the cursing-and-whining part.

  8. Marcus Koze said,

    June 10, 2009 at 9:40 am

    Gravatar

    By accolites i’ve meant Novell and the other companies that became slaves of Micromoft. (yes, no quotes around the _slaves_ word, that’s how i see them… would you disagree ?)

    I didn’t mean at all to say something like that (“According to you every programmer that doesn’t work on Linux is an MS-accolite, hm? “) , sorry if it sounds like so, told you about my not-so-good english.

    Roy Bixler Reply:

    Your English seems fine to me.

  9. eet said,

    June 10, 2009 at 9:49 am

    Gravatar

    ‘Slaves of Microsoft’ – give me a break… How old are you? This is not ‘Lord of the Rings’…

  10. Marcus Koze said,

    June 10, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    Gravatar

    Yes, slaves. No, this isn’t Lord of the Rings, but what m$ does these days (i mean more ferociously than they used to) isn’t quite from this world… or do you find their acts suitable for the old excuse of “they’re a company and companies are set to make money” ? If so, feel free to go your way, in my fantasy world they’d end up hanged, shot, poised, sliced and then thrown in an active volcano.

    Regarding my age, i’m not some next-door-kid, trust me. When i say slaves, i mean those companies that went into “agreements” with micromoft don’t have their original identities anymore… instead playing blindingly according to the will of m$, from what i see…

    Anyway, eet, in the end you’re an advocate of mono, probably arguing with “productivity”, i’m a guy protesting against it because… well, i’ve iterated my reasons above too many times … let’s see who’s right (time will show us)

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    Anyway, eet, in the end you’re an advocate of mono..

    A better description would be “protester against this Web site”. It is best not to feed the trolls.

What Else is New


  1. 'Reform' at the EPO Means Destroying the Staff Union, Crushing Patent Examiners, and Imposing on Europe a System It Does Not Want (UPC)

    The chaotic transition at the EPO -- a transition from something which has been workable to something intolerable -- and the role of the Unitary Patent (UPC), which lurks in the shadows and threatens to harm the whole of Europe



  2. Shakeup Against Patent Parasites in the US and More Rumours/Speculations About USPTO Director Michelle Lee After Trump's Inauguration

    The US patent system is becoming ever more hostile towards patent trolls, owing in part to reforms introduced under Michelle Lee's tenure, but people are still not certain that she will maintain her job and continue to fix the system



  3. EPO Abuses Now Make the Netherlands Look Like a Facilitator of Human/Labour Rights Abuses

    Rather than crack down on human rights abuses, the Dutch government now sends out the signal that it's an island for those wish to violate human rights whilst enjoying immunity (EPO)



  4. Links 20/1/2017: Docker 1.13, Linux 4.4.44 LTS

    Links for the day



  5. “Federal Circuit Had Affirmed on Every Issue in 77.4% of the Patent Trial and Appeal Board Appeals it Had Seen” in 2016

    The Federal Circuit (CAFC) and Patent Trial and Appeal Board (PTAB) continue to squash a lot of patents on software, in contrast to that fake news from patent maximalists



  6. Kudelski Group Not Only Acts Like a Patent Troll But Also Run by Intellectual Ventures Person; Mobile Market in Dire State of Patent Armageddon

    The patent thicket which pervades everything that is used by billions of people, mobile technology in particular, can be traced back to a lot of non-practicing parasites (or patent trolls)



  7. Watchtroll and His Swamp Still Blame Google (Where Michelle Lee Came From) for Improving and Gradually Fixing Aspects of the US Patent System

    Shooting the messengers (even wrongly associating yours truly with Google) in an effort to undermine patent reform when it is so desperately needed due to serious injustices



  8. In an Age of Necessary Patent Reform and Permanent Uncertainty for Software Patents the Patent Microcosm Looks for Workarounds and Spin

    Commentary on the status quo in the Michelle Lee era and some examples of bias from the patent microcosm, as well as news regarding the NFL getting sued by the Kudelski Group



  9. Michelle Lee, USPTO Director, Should Recognise That the Patent Microcosm is Her Enemy Which Hates Her

    The latest outburst from the patent microcosm, which has a temper issue and notorious disdain for judges it does not agree with, is more of what we have come to expect



  10. Battistelli is an Autocrat Above the Law and It's OK, Holland's High Council Says

    Battistelli's autocratic tendencies will not be challenged by Dutch authorities, in spite of sheer condemnation from many groups all across Europe and the entire world



  11. Beware Fake News About the Unitary Patent (UPC)

    The UPC is dead, deadlocked, stuck, in a limbo and so on; those who claim otherwise are merely lobbying (in disguise of "analysis" or "news")



  12. Shame on MapR for Pursuing Software Patents While Pretending to Stand for Free/Open Source Software

    The patents gold rush sees another company joining the 'fun', albeit this company should campaign hard against software patents rather than pursue any



  13. Doomsday Scenario in the Back Mirror as Michelle Lee Keeps Her Job (and Much-Needed Patent Reform) at the USPTO

    The future of patent reform, i.e. tackling overpatenting and patent trolls, looks somewhat more promising with today's confirmation of Lee's 'extended tenure' at the Office



  14. Links 19/1/2017: PulseAudio 10.0, Linux 4.9 Longterm Kernel

    Links for the day



  15. Corporate (Wall Street) Media Agrees That Brexit Dooms the Unitary Patent (UPC)

    The nonstop lies or the fake news about the UPC starting "real soon now" don't quite pass a reality check or a basic assessment based on fundamental concepts, such as the UPC's facilitation of subordination (to Europe) in the United Kingdom



  16. Farce of an 'Independence' for the Boards of Appeal as Another Ally of Benoît Battistelli Enters as Parasite Inside the 'Overseer'/Host

    The latest cluster of lies from the President of the European Patent Office (EPO) and direct refutation of false claims of independence for the Boards of Appeal, where the former Vice-Presidents can flock, just like the Mini Minion (Minnoye) of Battistelli



  17. Links 18/1/2017: Red Hat's OpenShift 3.4, Mozilla's New Logo/Branding

    Links for the day



  18. Union-Busting Action by Team Battistelli Takes Heavy Toll, Techrights Will Continue to Expose EPO Injustices to the World

    The Staff Union of the European Patent Office, SUEPO, which faced unprecedented and probably illegal (based on local laws) attacks, is being weakened by the worst President ever, whose own management team seems to be collapsing along with the institution he is destroying in just a few years



  19. A Lot More Fake News About the UPC, Trying to Convince People That the UK is Ratifying (It's Not, It Cannot)

    Response to some of the latest misleading (self-serving) whispers about the fate of the Unified Patent Court (UPC), which is in a deadlock due to Brexit



  20. Rumours Suggest That EPO Management is Aware of Decline in Patent Quality and is Thus Actively Lying About it to the Media/Public

    Whenever Battistelli brags about patent quality he may be consciously and deliberately lying through his teeth if the latest rumours are correct



  21. Links 17/1/2017: GIMP Plans, New Raspberry Pi Product

    Links for the day



  22. Resumption of EPO Propaganda ('Meet the President') Officially Starts Tomorrow

    Yet another one of these foolish 'Meet the President' stunts, scheduled to take place tomorrow morning



  23. Caricature: Battistelli's New Year's Resolution (More EPO Lies)

    The latest cartoon being circulated within the European Patent Office (EPO)



  24. Donald Trump Gives New Hope to Patent Aggressors and Patent Trolls

    Pessimism about the prospects of patent progress or patent reform in an age of staunchly pro-business Conservatives and glorification of protectionism



  25. More Fake News About the Unified Patent Court (UPC) Based on Lobbying Tactics From Bristows UPC and the Preparatory Committee

    Unified Patent Court (UPC) lobbying has gotten so bad that it now infiltrates general media outlets, where people are asked to just blindly assume that the UPC is coming and is inevitable, even though it's clearly in a limbo and is unlikely to see the light of day



  26. EPO Totally Silent for a Month, But Deep Inside There Are Serious Cracks

    The situation at the EPO seems to be pretty grim, even at the top-level management, and the EPO has gone into permanent silence mode



  27. Links 16/1/2017: Linux 4.10 RC4, Linux Mint 18.1 'Serena' KDE Edition Beta

    Links for the day



  28. 'Financial Director' Publishes Fake News About the Unitary Patent (UPC)

    Response to some of the latest UPC propaganda, which strives to misinform Financial Directors so as to enrich the author and his firm



  29. Independent and Untainted Web Sites About Patents Are Still Few and Rare

    Commentary about news sources that we rely on, as well as the known pitfalls or the vested interests deeply ingrained in them



  30. The 20% Rule: Patent Trolling Suffers Double-Digit Declines and Patent Troll Technicolor is Collapsing

    Significant demise or total catastrophe for the modus operandi (method) of going after companies with a pile of patents and threats of litigation


CoPilotCo

RSS 64x64RSS Feed: subscribe to the RSS feed for regular updates

Home iconSite Wiki: You can improve this site by helping the extension of the site's content

Home iconSite Home: Background about the site and some key features in the front page

Chat iconIRC Channel: Come and chat with us in real time

CoPilotCo

Recent Posts