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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 13th, 2009 - Part 1

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twitterM$'s problem is they want their software to wear out and do many things that leave it in a perpetually broken state.Feb 13 00:00
oiaohmhttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=new...  Lol title how render a freaking triangleFeb 13 00:00
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oiaohmfake limits is MS normaly way of doing it.Feb 13 00:03
oiaohmIe ram limits.Feb 13 00:03
oiaohmLike vista and xp after the last server pack no long having a great PAE in 32 bit mode.Feb 13 00:03
twitterYou know, I thought a little about the KDE for Windows thing and your idea of gradual migration being best.  You completely overlook how different Vista and Windows 7 are.  Now is a perfect time for people to move to GNU/Linux.Feb 13 00:07
twitterAll of their applications are going to be broken by the move from XP and the users will be even more confused by Vista than they are by GNU/Linux.Feb 13 00:08
oiaohmAnd KDE 4.x works on 7 and VistaFeb 13 00:08
schestowitz"And"?Feb 13 00:08
schestowitzIt's the same thing.Feb 13 00:09
oiaohmYes its a window but not everyone will be migrated in that window.Feb 13 00:09
twitterThat does not matter.  The user is better served by GNU/Linux.Feb 13 00:09
oiaohmIssue is it does matter twitterFeb 13 00:09
twitterWhat is your issue, that people must have Windows at any cost?Feb 13 00:09
oiaohmYou will learn what I know after many failed conversions.Feb 13 00:09
twitterThat's brainwash.Feb 13 00:09
oiaohmYou have it wrong.Feb 13 00:10
twitterI've never seen a failed conversion.Feb 13 00:10
oiaohmPerson cannot afford a sudend change.Feb 13 00:10
oiaohmLot of people cannot.Feb 13 00:10
oiaohmXP to Vista sudden change problems.Feb 13 00:10
twitterWell Vista gives them that anyway.Feb 13 00:10
oiaohmSame with XP to Linux.Feb 13 00:10
twitterSo you might as well liberate themFeb 13 00:10
oiaohmAnd are people sticking to XP like glue.Feb 13 00:10
oiaohmYes they are.Feb 13 00:11
schestowitzOT: What kind of SICK society are laywers making??  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123419309890...Feb 13 00:11
oiaohmMS really has not liked that.Feb 13 00:11
oiaohmSame reason why MS failing to convert people to Vista is the same problem you hit converting to Linux.Feb 13 00:11
twitterSure because most XP apps work under GNU/Linux in one way or another and migration for XP users is less painful than Vista users.Feb 13 00:11
oiaohmMS did too big of change too fast.Feb 13 00:12
oiaohmIts speed of conversion twitterFeb 13 00:12
oiaohmRight speed it happens take the conversion from 98 to XP.Feb 13 00:12
twitterM$ won't give up DRM, which is Vista's biggest problem.  Users should move to free software right now, there is no better time.Feb 13 00:12
oiaohmIt was fairly smooth.Feb 13 00:12
oiaohmThat is what you are aiming for twitter to convert major numbers.Feb 13 00:13
twitterNothing was smooth about the conversion from 98 to XP.Feb 13 00:13
schestowitz""They don't have the right to read a book out loud," said Paul Aiken, executive director of the Authors Guild. "That's an audio right, which is derivative under copyright law.""Feb 13 00:13
twitterI aim for people to have software freedom.Feb 13 00:13
oiaohmIt was really.Feb 13 00:13
twitterThey won't get it from XP or Vista.Feb 13 00:13
oiaohmSame here.Feb 13 00:13
twitterXP was slow slow slow.Feb 13 00:13
oiaohmWe have the same long term aims.Feb 13 00:13
twitterThat's why M$ drug their heels on VistaFeb 13 00:14
oiaohm98 to XP for business users almost everything worked out box.Feb 13 00:14
twitterIt took them three years or so to get 50% of their user base moved.  Vista has been a complete failure because so many M$ users had just made the move.Feb 13 00:14
oiaohmRemember a person normally users at home what they use at work.Feb 13 00:15
twitterXP did not work out of the box!Feb 13 00:15
oiaohmFor gamers no it did not.Feb 13 00:15
oiaohmFor business side it did.Feb 13 00:16
twitterIt took years for them to get the devices working and they never did security right.Feb 13 00:16
twitterNow they have removed XP drivers from Vista and security is still a mess.Feb 13 00:16
oiaohmdoes businesses care about devices.Feb 13 00:16
oiaohmThey care if the machine runs.Feb 13 00:16
oiaohmSecuirty is even lower down on the list to that.Feb 13 00:16
twitterM$ won't let users stay with XP - M$ is forcing Vista by device and hardware breakage.Feb 13 00:17
twitterSecurity is not low on the list when a business suffers weeks of outage due to worms!Feb 13 00:17
twitterIt happens frequently.Feb 13 00:17
oiaohmUntil it does they don't worry.Feb 13 00:17
oiaohmWorking is the prime goal of business.Feb 13 00:18
oiaohmMigration that risks down time is not something they will do.Feb 13 00:18
twitterThe reality for business is that they have to migrate away from XP and GNU/Linux offers most of what they are looking for.Feb 13 00:18
oiaohmSlow migrations are required.Feb 13 00:18
twitterfamiliar interfaces, stability, security and device compatibility.Feb 13 00:18
oiaohmIe if all internal documents are converted to openoffice that is not a problem when Linux change happens.Feb 13 00:18
oiaohmNow if that is not done first they will fear it.Feb 13 00:19
oiaohmWith very good reason.Feb 13 00:19
twitterthey even get to keep more of their apps than Vista will give them.Feb 13 00:19
oiaohmYou need to start at the top of stack and work down.Feb 13 00:19
oiaohmIe Application conversions then OS conversion.Feb 13 00:19
oiaohmAll the time reducing there long term costs.Feb 13 00:20
twitterI remember a conversion from Word Perfect to Word.  It was ugly but happened quickly.  A conversion to Open Office would be a lot easier and faster.Feb 13 00:20
oiaohmYes working to being MS free.Feb 13 00:20
oiaohmNot alway twitterFeb 13 00:20
oiaohmIts documents with custom VBA stuff in it.Feb 13 00:20
oiaohmThat can be key to business operations that need to be recoded.Feb 13 00:20
twitterThat kind of crap is disposable - written by interns.Feb 13 00:20
oiaohmIts disposable yes.Feb 13 00:21
oiaohmBut not having it work when you jump accross is majorly damaging.Feb 13 00:21
oiaohmCan cause them to backlash completely on the Linux conversion.Feb 13 00:21
twitterBig companies give that kind of work to interns to do in a week or two.  OO has more than adequate tools for the job.Feb 13 00:21
twitterThere will be no backlash in places like that.Feb 13 00:22
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oiaohmWeek or two most likely 2 months.Feb 13 00:22
oiaohmNumber one for coding number 2 for testing.Feb 13 00:22
twitterDude, I've done that kind of work myself for a fortune 100 company.  It was trivial and NO ONE CARED.Feb 13 00:22
oiaohmComplete goal is do the conversion without anything failing.Feb 13 00:22
oiaohmI have done it for over 150 companiesFeb 13 00:23
oiaohmSome go perfectly no one cares.Feb 13 00:23
oiaohmSome where its critical you are dead meat if it don't work.Feb 13 00:23
twitterVBA was the lamest of labor savings.  Every staff member knew how to get the work done without it and the crap was constantly broken by the M$ treadmill.Feb 13 00:24
oiaohmLot of VBA stuff I end up converting to kexi.Feb 13 00:24
oiaohmMost of it is in access databases.Feb 13 00:24
oiaohmThat are not very nice to port accross either.Feb 13 00:25
twitterthat kind of crap needs to be replaced with a proper database.Feb 13 00:25
twittermaybe a nice web interfaceFeb 13 00:25
oiaohmExactlyFeb 13 00:25
oiaohmFirst job is cleaning up the MS crap at application level out the system.Feb 13 00:25
twitterBetter to do it with a full GNU/Linux migration than it is to waste time porting KDE to Windows.Feb 13 00:25
oiaohmSo when migration happens it not biteing.Feb 13 00:26
oiaohmKDE to Windows also is about the User side.Feb 13 00:26
oiaohmOther big problem you have they jump accorss and don't know what applications are called.Feb 13 00:26
schestowitzSomeone in BN warned me about this guy and he was right! http://lunduke.com/?p=155Feb 13 00:26
schestowitzlunduke =  mental blacklistFeb 13 00:27
oiaohmBasically anything reducing the barriors to moving is a good thing twitterFeb 13 00:27
schestowitzoiaohm: find out how MS feels about itFeb 13 00:28
schestowitzI see MS bloggers promoting Moonlight todayFeb 13 00:28
schestowitzWhich means that Mono and Moonlight are indeed harmful to LinuxFeb 13 00:28
schestowitzGood for Microsoft = bad for LinuxFeb 13 00:28
schestowitzMiguel gets his wage and it's "above his pay grade"Feb 13 00:28
oiaohmMS is getting desprate.Feb 13 00:29
schestowitzHe f*s up the whole FOSS world with Novel's funding and Microsoft's helpFeb 13 00:29
oiaohmList the locks MS has left in the market that are not under threat.Feb 13 00:29
twitteramazing.  A town gets rid of their spy cams http://yro.slashdot.org/articl...Feb 13 00:29
oiaohmMoonlight is about trying to build a new lock becuase most of there locks have been taken out by the EU.Feb 13 00:30
oiaohmBesides most of the protected codecs in Moonlight are provide by Nvidia in there video accerlation.Feb 13 00:30
oiaohmNice unstable lock there.Feb 13 00:31
schestowitzByfield does MS: http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/os...Feb 13 00:31
twitter"Microsoft's repository for open source code"  ha ha.Feb 13 00:33
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twitterthe article seems good for basic statistics.Feb 13 00:34
twitterbut no one should really care about codeplexFeb 13 00:34
oiaohmhttp://sourcewell.berlios.de/ca...  Everyone forgets this one.Feb 13 00:35
twitter" Those paranoid about Microsoft have seen them as proof of their obsessions; only those oriented towards business have entertained the idea that the efforts represented real change."  It's not paranoia when they are really out to get you.Feb 13 00:36
twitterHow many court documents and emails does Bruce Byfield need to see before he realizes how evil the company is.Feb 13 00:37
twitterThere's nothing well meaning about any M$ action.  It's always about what's best for M$, not "business", the customer or anything else.Feb 13 00:38
oiaohmtwitter the problem you had your conversions so far have been the painless ones.Feb 13 00:38
twitterI've seen CAD people move.Feb 13 00:38
oiaohmNot the ones that take like year and a half of work to make possiable.Feb 13 00:38
oiaohmWithout breaking critical operations.Feb 13 00:39
twitterM$ is breaking those same operations constantly.  Better to move them to free software.Feb 13 00:39
oiaohmSupprising no.Feb 13 00:39
oiaohmsetups on windows 2000 was scarely stable.Feb 13 00:39
twitterNot surprising.  Breakage is their business model.Feb 13 00:40
oiaohmSome of the conversions I have done are mixed bag.Feb 13 00:40
oiaohmSome othere network 98 some 2000 some XP.Feb 13 00:40
oiaohmLot of the 2000's on critical operations.Feb 13 00:41
twitterdinner time.Feb 13 00:41
oiaohmI have even come accross where 2003 is being used as a workstation for critical opertations.Feb 13 00:41
oiaohmYes they spent 1000 dollars on a OS for a workstation.Feb 13 00:41
oiaohmThen you have the problem accountance don't like 1000 dollars worht of expendure put in bin.Feb 13 00:43
schestowitzI see that KDE 4.2 receives praisesFeb 13 00:44
schestowitzA person who disliked 4.0 and 4.1 loves 4.2Feb 13 00:44
oiaohmIts featuresFeb 13 00:46
oiaohm3.5 is masively feature rich.Feb 13 00:46
schestowitzParity?Feb 13 00:46
schestowitzYesFeb 13 00:46
schestowitzI know..Feb 13 00:46
schestowitz3.4 was good tooFeb 13 00:46
oiaohmIt was kinda a rude shock to users that they are were missing.Feb 13 00:46
schestowitzI skipped 3.2 and 2.3Feb 13 00:46
schestowitz*3.3Feb 13 00:46
schestowitzLinus tried just 4.0Feb 13 00:47
schestowitzFedora, IIRCFeb 13 00:47
schestowitzHe posted a bug reportFeb 13 00:47
schestowitzFedora 10 seems to be doing well tooFeb 13 00:47
schestowitzhttp://server.ericsbinaryworld.com/...Feb 13 00:47
oiaohmAlso part of the problem kde 4.x is also design with DRI2 in mind.Feb 13 00:47
schestowitzOn KDE4: http://linuxowns.wordpress.com/2...Feb 13 00:47
oiaohmWould be fine if DRI 2 getting mainline is not masively behind time table.Feb 13 00:48
oiaohmOver a year past projected time tableFeb 13 00:48
schestowitzKDE4 could waiyFeb 13 00:52
schestowitzNo idea why they rushed itFeb 13 00:52
schestowitz3.5 is spectacularFeb 13 00:53
schestowitzEven without KWin effect it has CompizFeb 13 00:53
schestowitzHow far RMS' contribs have come.. "This article is under GNU FDL license and can be distributed without any previous authorization from the author. However the author's name and all the URLs (links) mentioned in the article and biography must be kept." http://www.msokorea.com/consumer-electroni...Feb 13 00:54
oiaohmSimple problem 3.5 is internally stuffed.Feb 13 00:54
schestowitzThe other GNU: GNU a fraud < http://www.thezimbabwean.co.uk/index.php?opti... >Feb 13 00:54
oiaohmThey have pushed its internals completely to its limits.Feb 13 00:54
schestowitzGNU in Africa has a very bad name. Very.Feb 13 00:55
oiaohm4.0 is basically a rewite removing most of the major core issues.Feb 13 00:55
oiaohmNow mistake was droping on the add on features.Feb 13 00:55
schestowitzI see no issuesFeb 13 00:55
*schestowitz loves KDE as it isFeb 13 00:55
schestowitzOkay, it would be nice if KDE made koffee too :-0)Feb 13 00:56
oiaohmTheming engine.Feb 13 00:56
oiaohmKDE 3.5 its stuffed.Feb 13 00:56
schestowitzHard to install more themsFeb 13 00:56
schestowitz*mesFeb 13 00:56
schestowitzBut it has many built inFeb 13 00:56
oiaohmDevice support major issues.Feb 13 00:56
schestowitzI change these occasionally for funFeb 13 00:56
schestowitzWhich devices?Feb 13 00:56
oiaohmSound support equally major issues.Feb 13 00:56
oiaohmpda's and the like schestowitzFeb 13 00:57
oiaohmeven system wide configurations 3.5 has issues doing them cleanly.Feb 13 00:57
schestowitzBut one that's compatibleFeb 13 00:57
schestowitz*BuyFeb 13 00:57
oiaohmYep kinda does not work.Feb 13 00:57
oiaohmKDE 3.5 running on freebsd solarias and Linux all have different device support.Feb 13 00:58
oiaohmEven that they are all the same version of KDE.Feb 13 00:58
oiaohmsolid is about sorting that out with global configurations.Feb 13 00:58
oiaohmBasically KDE 3.5 has some major kernel messes.Feb 13 00:59
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oiaohmArts sound system did not help compadiblity with non KDE applcications.Feb 13 00:59
schestowitzarts is being phased out gradually, no?Feb 13 01:00
oiaohmThere basically comes a point where to fix the problems is rebuild.Feb 13 01:00
schestowitzI don't want to pronounce its death prematurely.Feb 13 01:00
oiaohmKde 3.5 users arts.  KDE 4.0 does not.Feb 13 01:00
schestowitzoiaohm: kde gives the optionFeb 13 01:00
oiaohmKinda not gradually.Feb 13 01:00
schestowitzOr the packager (distro) doesFeb 13 01:01
oiaohmKDE has photonFeb 13 01:01
oiaohmAll access from KDE 4 to arts is threw that.Feb 13 01:01
oiaohmSame with access gstreamer and the like.Feb 13 01:01
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oiaohmarts is really not part of KDE 4.Feb 13 01:01
oiaohmarts is basically another thing like pulse audio.Feb 13 01:02
schestowitzAshlee Vance with another trollish article: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/11/netbooks-a...Feb 13 01:06
oiaohmImploding for who.Feb 13 01:06
schestowitzNot the environment, that's for sure :-)Feb 13 01:07
schestowitzSimilar headline to mine: Microsoft wants an anti-Linux chief < http://vista.blorge.com/2009/02/10/mic... >Feb 13 01:25
oiaohmMicrosoft has a problem how to you be anti something that is not one thing.Feb 13 01:27
schestowitzPrecisely.Feb 13 01:31
schestowitzThey said so explicitly. ballmer said it around 2005Feb 13 01:31
schestowitzThey are used to buying or crashing stuff.Feb 13 01:31
schestowitz*crushingFeb 13 01:32
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oiaohmUndermining is also hard to do against open source.Feb 13 01:34
oiaohmThe bugger normally forks out of it.Feb 13 01:34
schestowitzYes, thus hatred of licences like GPLFeb 13 01:35
schestowitzYou take, you MUST give backFeb 13 01:35
schestowitzThus empowering the forkersFeb 13 01:35
oiaohmGPL v3 they hate more.Feb 13 01:36
oiaohmhttp://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000...  Some people like starting the predictable.Feb 13 01:37
schestowitzyesFeb 13 01:44
schestowitzIt defangs their patent teethFeb 13 01:44
schestowitz"Ina Fried"   *puke puke* it's an MS mouthFeb 13 01:45
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MethodOneschestowitz, what distro and desktop environment do you currently use?Feb 13 02:18
schestowitzI use Mandriva and KDE on my main box.Feb 13 02:21
MethodOnethanksFeb 13 02:22
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MethodOnethere's one problem with clamav:  it doesn't detect the epstein-barr virus in mono and programs that depend on it. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infect... if you don't know what i meanFeb 13 02:36
schestowitzHehe.Feb 13 02:38
schestowitzThee's monononoFeb 13 02:38
schestowitzhttp://tim.thechases.com/mononono/Feb 13 02:39
MethodOnemight as well make a mononono package for arch linuxFeb 13 02:45
schestowitz:-)Feb 13 02:47
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?...Feb 13 04:08
NeonF|ossschestowitz: whats your opinion on bill gates as an individual?Feb 13 04:25
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schestowitzNeonF|oss: why do you ask?Feb 13 04:26
NeonF|ossdunno - I hear a lot about microsoft being bad - then I hear about bill gates doing some good stuff... im too laxy to do good research so I ask the expert (you)Feb 13 04:28
NeonF|oss:PFeb 13 04:28
schestowitzIt requires a long explanation with a lot of supportive evidence; no room for concision here.Feb 13 04:28
NeonF|ossok - then ill google itFeb 13 04:30
NeonF|ossgot any suggested links?Feb 13 04:30
schestowitzBe careful whose sources. Gates owns a lot of pressFeb 13 04:30
schestowitzI could do a post about itFeb 13 04:30
schestowitzOr just blurt out a quick explanation.Feb 13 04:30
NeonF|osshehFeb 13 04:30
schestowitzHere goes.Feb 13 04:30
NeonF|oss:)Feb 13 04:30
schestowitzI ought to get some sleep soon thoughFeb 13 04:31
schestowitzGates was born in a very affluent family.Feb 13 04:31
schestowitzHis family had some sort of tradition of 'tyranny' in the sense that, as far as I know, there was government background (his grandfather)Feb 13 04:31
schestowitzHis dad had many connections with people in  high placesFeb 13 04:31
schestowitzLater he got ttogether with Abramoff, but that's another story Abramoff is in jail now)Feb 13 04:32
schestowitzThe story tells that a lot of what Gates was able to achieve was done behind the scenes (like secret societies) by his dad and his friends.Feb 13 04:32
schestowitzBut then comes the role of his young adult lifeFeb 13 04:33
schestowitzHe raised some sort of prospect/career for 'tealing' other people's ideasFeb 13 04:33
schestowitzTo get computer time, he and Allen sabotaged the machines (so that they can 'fix' them)Feb 13 04:33
schestowitzWith some help from his mother IIRC he got help from IBM (a deal)Feb 13 04:33
schestowitzHe later screwed themFeb 13 04:34
schestowitzThis involved sabotageFeb 13 04:34
schestowitzThe pattern persisted for many yearsFeb 13 04:34
schestowitzThe gagg of Ballmer, Gates, Silverberg, Kempin and other bullies like Allchin..Feb 13 04:34
schestowitzIn 1998 business was already badFeb 13 04:34
schestowitzMicrosoft practically lost $18 billiobFeb 13 04:34
schestowitzThe whole thing was built on imaginary wealth, in partFeb 13 04:34
schestowitzMany companies in the US do thisFeb 13 04:35
schestowitzWhich may related to what became FrausStreetFeb 13 04:35
schestowitzA place for capital in small startupFeb 13 04:35
schestowitzThen devolving into trade in funny money, i.e. escapism from the original goalsFeb 13 04:35
schestowitzRather than trade chickens for albums, for exmple, you'd trade some sharesFeb 13 04:35
schestowitzSo Microsoft had a possible financial blunderFeb 13 04:36
schestowitzGates tepped downFeb 13 04:36
schestowitzBallmer was put in charge to just milk money as long as he couldFeb 13 04:36
schestowitzThe criminal scheming persisted, as antitrust evidence clearly showsFeb 13 04:36
schestowitzGates Foundation was createdFeb 13 04:36
schestowitzThis provided a haven taxFeb 13 04:36
schestowitzPet charities are to be found in many other placesFeb 13 04:37
schestowitzThey are a legal loopholeFeb 13 04:37
schestowitzThey enable imrovement of business under guise of 'goodness' and blissFeb 13 04:37
schestowitzThe public can buy this perc eption because it's hard to criticise something that's called a charityFeb 13 04:37
schestowitzMoreover, this 'charity' can buy media companies and attack fogs to fight media that is not obedient, i.e. that which says the truth about pet charitiesaFeb 13 04:38
schestowitzGates FOundation got exposed tooFeb 13 04:38
schestowitzI think it was the Sun Mercury (?? name) that showed where the money was goingFeb 13 04:38
schestowitzThe Gates Foundation essentially bribes government and also invests money in the same companies whom it tells government to pass money toFeb 13 04:39
schestowitzGates needn't pay taxFeb 13 04:39
schestowitzSo another abuser/harvester called Warren Buffett chipped inFeb 13 04:39
schestowitzWhy pay tax (back to the public) when you can stash it in some bank account with "charity" labelFeb 13 04:39
schestowitzAnd so the myth grewFeb 13 04:39
schestowitzGates is now raising offshootsFeb 13 04:39
schestowitzPatent trolling, political activism (to help Microsoft), etc.Feb 13 04:40
schestowitzSo that's just pretty much the storyFeb 13 04:40
schestowitzAbout a company that milked the system, broke the law and then used the media to pretend all was charming and benevolent.Feb 13 04:40
schestowitzI'm off to bed  now.Feb 13 04:40
schestowitzCya in the morning.Feb 13 04:40
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NeonF|osswowFeb 13 04:52
NeonF|ossthanksFeb 13 04:52
NeonF|oss:PFeb 13 04:52
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MinceRj0Feb 13 09:16
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*zer0c00l says room is in pin drop silence :DFeb 13 10:12
*zer0c00l knows one half of the world is sleeping ;)Feb 13 10:13
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schestowitzMorning.Feb 13 10:27
oiaohmHi schestowitz its nightFeb 13 10:27
schestowitzGood nightFeb 13 10:27
*schestowitz back to bedFeb 13 10:27
PetoKraus:)Feb 13 10:27
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zer0c00lhi schestowitzFeb 13 10:32
schestowitzHi, what's' up?Feb 13 10:33
zer0c00ljust wanted to say hii..is it night there?Feb 13 10:34
zer0c00lthen good night sorry for distrubing youFeb 13 10:34
zer0c00l:)Feb 13 10:34
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zer0c00lthose news on the front page of boycottnovell are very usefull :)Feb 13 10:36
oiaohmHaving some connections fun my end.  Its night here.Feb 13 10:36
zer0c00lits evening here :(Feb 13 10:36
zer0c00l:)Feb 13 10:36
schestowitzzer0c00l: glad you find them handy.Feb 13 10:37
zer0c00lyeah i liked the ubuntu windoze 7 benchmark linkFeb 13 10:37
zer0c00lalso those gamesFeb 13 10:37
zer0c00li am going to organize a club event here in college..those links are very usefull for my presentationFeb 13 10:38
zer0c00l*club event on linuxFeb 13 10:38
zer0c00lhttps://fossbazaar.org/content/open-sou... i comment there on the postFeb 13 10:40
zer0c00l*made a comment on that postFeb 13 10:40
zer0c00lshe has mentioned something about NRCFOSS (which is a org created by indian govt for promoting foss) but isn't doing wellFeb 13 10:41
schestowitzHehe.. so true. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZlrGU...Feb 13 10:41
schestowitzYes, I saw that post left out microsoft's well documented crimes in IndiaFeb 13 10:42
zer0c00lshe never mentioned about ooxmlFeb 13 10:42
zer0c00land painted wipro as a foss friendFeb 13 10:43
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zer0c00lbut wipro isn'tFeb 13 10:43
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zer0c00lthey are proxies of microsoft in indiaFeb 13 10:43
zer0c00l*wipro voted for ooxmlFeb 13 10:43
schestowitzYuckFeb 13 10:44
schestowitzWiproFeb 13 10:44
schestowitzI view them as accomplicesFeb 13 10:44
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/custom?q=wipr...Feb 13 10:45
schestowitzwitz.com%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=enFeb 13 10:45
schestowitzOops. Wait. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=...Feb 13 10:45
zer0c00li see a lot about wipro :)Feb 13 10:47
schestowitzYes, links therein too, so it closes some circles. I have more outside BNFeb 13 10:48
zer0c00ltime to attend a mettingFeb 13 10:57
zer0c00lbyeFeb 13 10:57
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oiaohmLOLFeb 13 11:27
oiaohmThat was a mother of a link schestowitzFeb 13 11:27
schestowitzWHich one?Feb 13 11:34
oiaohmThe one you went Opps on.Feb 13 11:35
schestowitzLinux celebrates its 1234567890'th breath < http://www.itwire.com/content/v... >Feb 13 11:37
oiaohmThat is from unixFeb 13 11:37
schestowitzYesFeb 13 11:37
schestowitzI thought the same thing.Feb 13 11:38
schestowitzThe DisneyWorld (*cough*) of IT ain't so rosy: More job cuts ahead at Google < http://www.itwire.com/content/... >Feb 13 11:38
oiaohm1970Feb 13 11:38
oiaohmPitty most Unixs where not around to party over it.Feb 13 11:38
schestowitzNHS is a mess...... http://www.smarthealthcare.com/almei...Feb 13 11:41
oiaohmCould have told you that was comming.Feb 13 11:42
oiaohmFuture contract for me with Google got canceled on me.Feb 13 11:42
oiaohmDay before it passed the point of no return.Feb 13 11:43
oiaohmThat really suxed.Feb 13 11:43
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schestowitzWhat a waste of engineering... http://blog.wired.com/cars/2009/...Feb 13 11:45
schestowitzGoogle Axes Radio Ads < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/0... >Feb 13 11:48
schestowitzNice new design in FSFE's site: http://blogs.fsfe.org/ciaran/?p=171Feb 13 11:49
oiaohmOk the missed the other way to win in battle.Feb 13 11:50
oiaohmAustralian colin class subs have it.Feb 13 11:50
oiaohmDon't be invincibility or invisibility.  Be able to clone the signature of your enemy.Feb 13 11:52
oiaohmIf they cannot tell friend from foe they can blow there own units up.Feb 13 11:52
oiaohmCaused minor caos when Australian opertator in a USA Australian war game typoed and changed signature to a russian attack sub.Feb 13 11:53
schestowitzI wonder how the deficit will affect armament, esp. in the US.Feb 13 11:55
oiaohmI don't think it will be 100 percent invisable.Feb 13 11:56
oiaohmthinking sonar exists that can pickup a diver in the water.Feb 13 11:56
schestowitzYes, but that makes a sales pitchFeb 13 11:57
oiaohmI still like the Australian method better.Feb 13 11:57
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jose__http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Micr...Feb 13 11:57
jose__great move by microsoftFeb 13 11:57
jose__great for usFeb 13 11:57
oiaohmYep double cross there OEMS.Feb 13 11:57
oiaohmMS is getting desperate.Feb 13 11:58
jose__or maybe the honeymoon was overFeb 13 11:58
jose__alreadyFeb 13 11:58
oiaohmThink about it you are a OEM building MS machines and MS opens a store down the road.Feb 13 11:59
oiaohmMS is desprate to concider a move like this.Feb 13 12:00
oiaohmRisks making more people sell Linux stuff.Feb 13 12:00
jose__yupFeb 13 12:00
jose__differentiatorFeb 13 12:01
jose__you can't compete with an ms storeFeb 13 12:01
jose__of course, linux can't stand stillFeb 13 12:01
jose__or this could possibly even backfireFeb 13 12:02
jose__?Feb 13 12:02
jose__ms had it easyFeb 13 12:02
jose__if they go retail, their costs should go upFeb 13 12:02
jose__things aren't looking great for them id' thinkFeb 13 12:02
oiaohmQuote the cost for a OEM store to have 10 copyies ofFeb 13 12:02
oiaohmVista and office + 1 serverFeb 13 12:03
oiaohmFor there business use.Feb 13 12:03
oiaohmIts 699 AUD for me.Feb 13 12:03
jose__going retail offers a chance for ms to sell their hw crapFeb 13 12:03
jose__i don't think ms has lower ambitions that to own everything at some point in timeFeb 13 12:04
jose__so it makes sense for them to expand this way at some pointFeb 13 12:04
schestowitzjose__: good news indeedFeb 13 12:04
schestowitzIt shows that they run out of moneyFeb 13 12:04
jose__but i think their hand is being forcedFeb 13 12:04
schestowitzWhich I knewFeb 13 12:04
schestowitzThey tried h/w with ZUne and XBoxFeb 13 12:05
schestowitzIt failed badlyFeb 13 12:05
jose__ms store might become a very big jokeFeb 13 12:05
oiaohmMS can heavly discount there software.Feb 13 12:05
oiaohmMS has lots control of the big 5 OEM builders.Feb 13 12:05
oiaohmIBM HP ASUS DELL and SONY.Feb 13 12:05
jose__ohFeb 13 12:05
jose__i hope they didn't buy up the leftovers of circuit city for cheapFeb 13 12:05
jose__has or hadFeb 13 12:06
oiaohmMS has a disadvantage.Feb 13 12:06
jose__ms is stepping on more toes now.. like you saidFeb 13 12:06
oiaohmName a CPU maker who is going to double cross the big open makers.Feb 13 12:06
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oiaohmRemember super computer builders take almost as many processes as the complete desktop market.Feb 13 12:07
oiaohmVIA maybe but that is about it for x86 chips.Feb 13 12:08
oiaohmCompany in death throws is funny.Feb 13 12:08
jose__i'll be laughing more when i actually see the money in the drainFeb 13 12:09
jose__i don't underestimate msFeb 13 12:09
jose__maybe laugh while i double up my effortsFeb 13 12:09
schestowitzMicrosoft security news: bounty on cyber-criminals; botnet problem; "critical" vulnerabilities and more: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/13/b...Feb 13 12:09
oiaohmProblem I have I don't see a way forward for MS.Feb 13 12:09
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oiaohmYou did put the comment in there the bounties are only so they have someone to blame other than the own incompetence schestowitzFeb 13 12:10
oiaohmNiceFeb 13 12:12
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schestowitzYes, you put it better than I did.Feb 13 12:20
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oiaohmhttp://www.thelocal.se/17554/20090212/  Seen this one yet schestowitz pirate bay guys got.Feb 13 12:50
schestowitzIt will be broadcated.Feb 13 12:51
schestowitz*castedFeb 13 12:51
schestowitzBut they face a Big MAFIAA. Mafia with money controls laws, through corruptible politicians.Feb 13 12:52
oiaohmremeber less piracy more people who have to look to something legal.Feb 13 12:54
schestowitzThey ignore the legitimate stuff on thereFeb 13 12:57
schestowitzP2P and torrent merely pass filesFeb 13 12:57
schestowitzThey are not entertainment  machines. They just pass information around, just like HTTP, FTP, Telnet, voice, pen and paper...Feb 13 12:58
oiaohmThere are some legal questions about that.Feb 13 12:58
oiaohmA tracker provides a linking point between them.Feb 13 12:58
schestowitzYou can't stop people communicatinghFeb 13 12:58
schestowitzYou can try to keep them more isolatedFeb 13 12:58
schestowitzYou could impede communication, but where's the ethics in that?Feb 13 12:59
oiaohmYou can done for providing a link to pirated software on web pages in lots of countries.Feb 13 12:59
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, a tracker gives points, BUTFeb 13 12:59
schestowitzGoogle gives pointers tooFeb 13 12:59
schestowitzDoes it make Google illegal?Feb 13 12:59
schestowitzIn China they sued some search engines for doing what they do... crawling and indexing pages for searchersFeb 13 13:00
oiaohmTry searching for illegal software by name on google.Feb 13 13:00
oiaohmIts a little hard to find.Feb 13 13:00
oiaohmGoogle does obey removal requests from search.Feb 13 13:00
schestowitzIt doesn't stop it thoughFeb 13 13:00
oiaohmStop it no makes it harder.Feb 13 13:00
schestowitzDetermined searchers will get what they wantFeb 13 13:00
schestowitzIt's like stopping the kid from having candy by putting it above the high shelfFeb 13 13:01
schestowitzIn fact, you make the stuff even more desirable that wayFeb 13 13:01
schestowitzScarcity of information make it a tabooFeb 13 13:01
schestowitz"DON'T CLOCK HERE" (social engineering)Feb 13 13:01
oiaohmNo its more like hiding the candy bar.Feb 13 13:01
oiaohmNot every kid will be smart enough or determined enough to find it.Feb 13 13:02
schestowitzDON"T CLICK THIS!!! >> http://www.ubersoft.net/comi...Feb 13 13:02
oiaohmSystem adminFeb 13 13:02
oiaohmdon't click this gets obeyed after nukeing a system for having too much cat.Feb 13 13:02
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sanskumarlets boycottnovell :)Feb 13 13:09
schestowitzLet'sFeb 13 13:11
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schestowitzBy what means would you otherwise bring change?Feb 13 13:12
*sanskumar is confusedFeb 13 13:14
schestowitzOh.. :-)Feb 13 13:16
schestowitzI meant, yes, let us boycott.Feb 13 13:17
schestowitzI don't know what else to try to correct Novell. Many people tried other means in November 2006. Novell declines.Feb 13 13:17
jose__reverse psychology works.. but not in everythingFeb 13 13:21
jose__when people don't explain or appear to be hiding things.. then it tends to work moreFeb 13 13:21
jose__when you unmask and reveal as much as possible.. there you are more likely to get different resultsFeb 13 13:21
jose__the motivations and forwardness of those "giving advice" plays a roleFeb 13 13:23
jose__and if people do the opposite.. they might be willing to bail out quicker if what was said appears to be confirmed.Feb 13 13:23
jose__that's not to imply "we" are correct or pure or anythingFeb 13 13:24
jose__personally, i don't like reverse psychologyFeb 13 13:24
jose__it's a show of strength.. as well as respect.. to try and be forwardFeb 13 13:24
jose__short-term you may suffer some and not get the quick result you desired.. but long term is what countsFeb 13 13:26
schestowitzMicrosoft's 'limited' betaFeb 13 13:29
jose__being deceptive can be fun.. but there is a point after which it is not funFeb 13 13:31
jose__ha ha ha haFeb 13 13:33
jose__I was just kidding!!!Feb 13 13:33
jose__..Feb 13 13:33
jose__;-)Feb 13 13:33
jose__An softie talking to us about trust:Feb 13 13:44
jose__"Cloud computing is ultimately going to be, do you trust this provider to have more to lose than I have to lose as a company if they mess me up?" Ozzie [pictured] said in an interview with ZDNet UK's sister site, CNET News.com, in Los Angeles on Monday at Microsoft's Professional Developers Conference.Feb 13 13:44
jose__http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1...Feb 13 13:44
jose__this is from last year, btwFeb 13 13:44
jose__we should trust them about as much as they trust usFeb 13 13:45
jose__we know how open Microsoft is after allFeb 13 13:45
schestowitzWow.Feb 13 13:45
schestowitz160+ banks breachedFeb 13 13:45
schestowitzDue to "malware"Feb 13 13:45
jose__details?Feb 13 13:46
schestowitzCNET is Microsoft/AppleFeb 13 13:46
schestowitzOzzie is their tool for the illusion of gentle Microsoft because he has 'cleaner' history.Feb 13 13:47
schestowitzjose__: wait, I'll postFeb 13 13:47
schestowitzHelp me prooofreadFeb 13 13:47
jose__okFeb 13 13:47
jose__it sounds very juicyFeb 13 13:47
jose__but maybe you are just teasing usFeb 13 13:47
schestowitzOK, here: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/13...Feb 13 13:48
schestowitzSymbian Foundation in anti-Android recruit drive < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009... >Feb 13 13:50
schestowitzLenovo cuts 550 jobs across Europe < http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/02/1... >Feb 13 13:50
jose__http://www.heartlandpaymentsystems.c...Feb 13 13:51
jose__they use .asp pagesFeb 13 13:51
schestowitzhttp://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_repor...Feb 13 13:51
schestowitzMany US-based companies do.... same in the UKFeb 13 13:51
jose__breaches can happen to anyone.. was their software vuln or was it a people problemFeb 13 13:52
jose__and if sw, what part of itFeb 13 13:52
schestowitzEnglish -speaking countries (maybe with the exception of SA to an extent) are in Microsoft's pocket.Feb 13 13:52
jose__from that last page i linked:Feb 13 13:53
jose__>> Plus, because we developed the platform internally, you don’t have to worry about the crippling time and cost constraints that often hamper the development of technological innovations.Feb 13 13:53
jose__>> For example, to better secure your customers’ cardholder data, we’re currently developing end-to-end encryption. This industry-leading innovation takes security to the next level, encrypting card numbers at the time of swiping — thereby, protecting data in motion in addition to data at rest.Feb 13 13:54
jose__note the repeat use of "innovation"Feb 13 13:54
jose__innovating my money and security awayFeb 13 13:54
jose__>> At Heartland, we put the power of innovation and technology to workFeb 13 13:55
jose__that's a lot of innovationFeb 13 13:55
jose__almost missed this one.. right at the beginning:Feb 13 13:55
jose__>> At its heart, Heartland is all about innovationFeb 13 13:55
jose__I just like that word.. it reminds me of a few of my favorite things .. girls in white dresses.. and Microsoft.. and software patentsFeb 13 13:56
jose__http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUno0WNot5UFeb 13 13:57
schestowitzHm.....Feb 13 13:58
schestowitz /Whose/ power do they "to work"?Feb 13 13:58
schestowitzThe crackers'?Feb 13 13:58
schestowitz*LOL* " girls in white dresses.. and Microsoft.. and software paten"Feb 13 13:59
schestowitzI like that song. Don't ruin it with gangster connotationsFeb 13 13:59
jose__enjoy the flickFeb 13 13:59
jose__it should help your mind recoverFeb 13 13:59
jose__http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7FMkgwTP3oFeb 13 14:00
schestowitzThe original is betterFeb 13 14:01
schestowitzYou can envision some madman jumping on stage and shouting "I love this company" (similar idea)Feb 13 14:02
jose__see i go to some trouble to bring entertainment and keep you sane and all you can think about isFeb 13 14:04
jose__http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6rqXHX3O48Feb 13 14:04
jose__turn to minute 1:10Feb 13 14:05
schestowitzSomeone from Novell just told me: "you have delivered amazing work and the world should know its freedom of speech and controverse in a factual matter"Feb 13 14:10
schestowitzI know this video too. It's greatFeb 13 14:10
schestowitzBallmer lip-synchs wellFeb 13 14:11
schestowitz"frankinstein looks like mccain"Feb 13 14:13
jose__careful about schmoozers.. but yes, I agree bn has a lot of great stuffFeb 13 14:14
jose__roy, one thing you might considerFeb 13 14:15
jose__is to license the material so that others can build their own fronts to the parts of it they likeFeb 13 14:15
jose__this way, the info can reach wider audiences and bn can keep goingFeb 13 14:15
jose__without worrying about marketingFeb 13 14:15
jose__licensing.. i'm thinking one of the cc licenses (to preserve integrity of data but allow profiting)Feb 13 14:16
jose__people may like the idea and not mind giving you back a small cut of ads money and such to simplify things for youFeb 13 14:16
jose__i didn't mention this when the topic came up by "Friend" because i don't know what demand out there isFeb 13 14:17
jose__also some things are rawFeb 13 14:17
jose__since this is evolving workFeb 13 14:17
jose__so be careful about what others will (ab)useFeb 13 14:17
jose__most things i have seen though are very good.. it's only that sometimes you appear to get a little carried awayFeb 13 14:18
jose__i can do that on irc and comments because i'm no oneFeb 13 14:18
jose__but you don't have that luxuryFeb 13 14:18
jose__:-)Feb 13 14:18
jose__well you do, but be carefulFeb 13 14:18
schestowitzWhat licence to use?Feb 13 14:20
schestowitzWe never appended any notification regarding copiesFeb 13 14:20
schestowitzThe Wiki has it thoughFeb 13 14:20
jose__i don't know current law, but i expect that those posting opinions implictly give permission for reading at least from this siteFeb 13 14:21
jose__you'd want more than that ideally.. 'Feb 13 14:21
jose__not sure what practice is on the Internet for bloggingFeb 13 14:22
jose__if you got ad money, you could beef up servers and allow direct linking instead of mirroringFeb 13 14:22
jose__worst case, filter out the commentsFeb 13 14:23
jose__though you have (and can more formally get) my permission to reproduce what I have written under a suitable licenseFeb 13 14:24
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jose__also, beware of people that will want to tag bn with "doing it for the money"Feb 13 14:25
jose__i know you are sensitive to thatFeb 13 14:25
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jose__however, getting the word out is still usefulFeb 13 14:25
jose__otoh, a lot of the content doesn't need to reach everyone.. just strategic individualsFeb 13 14:26
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MethodOneinstead of a mononono package for arch linux, i submitted this bug report: http://bugs.archlinux.org/task/13253Feb 13 14:27
schestowitzjose__: yes, that's why I wanted Shane's ads removedFeb 13 14:30
schestowitzBut he pays for hostingFeb 13 14:30
schestowitzMethodOne: thanks.Feb 13 14:30
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jose__MethodOne could you add a link to http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/04/th... on my behalf.. i think you have to have a login account to postFeb 13 14:34
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/...Feb 13 14:35
jose__well, add it if you agree and want.. i'll keep your bug report link handy for when/if i get an account thereFeb 13 14:35
MethodOnesome people who criticize your blog say it's just about "a thousand reasons why microsoft sucks", but you do give valid pointsFeb 13 14:38
schestowitzI just got some message from an FSFE fellow: "I appreciate the work you're doing."Feb 13 14:38
schestowitzMethodOne: thanks. We don't do bashing ("Zune sucks" etc.), we give reaonsFeb 13 14:39
MethodOneokFeb 13 14:39
schestowitzI've just improved the Wiki a lot.. I'm adding the court order. ""..all Comes documents were released by the Iowa judge's court order - those marked "Confidential" were prior to that order. if you don't have it I can find the PDF for you, it was part of the site. Grouch's mirror (edge-op.org) is regarded by PJ as being the only reliable Comes mirror; he had posted his wget logs which proves the origins of the files."Feb 13 14:40
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jose__the bug report was closed alreadyFeb 13 14:56
jose__>> Reason for closing:  Not a bugFeb 13 14:57
jose__Additional comments about closing:  tomboy is part of the gnome desktop. The gnome group contains the basic parts of gnome, gnome-extra is supposed to contain everything else from the desktop suite.Feb 13 14:57
jose__alsoFeb 13 14:57
jose__>> gnome-extra is not a meta package, but a group from which you can choose what to install. Just say no to the apps you dont need.Feb 13 14:57
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schestowitzWho is closing these bug reports?Feb 13 15:01
jose__i can see the name but i don't know who anyone isFeb 13 15:01
schestowitzThere is always the chance that those with a hand on the tap are Mono devsFeb 13 15:01
jose__Grigorios Bouzakis (dolby)Feb 13 15:01
schestowitzI've seen this happen in UbuntuFeb 13 15:01
jose__first make sure it is a legit bug.Feb 13 15:02
jose__is it something crucial or notFeb 13 15:02
schestowitzSeems like mostly an arch devFeb 13 15:02
schestowitzNothing sinister..Feb 13 15:02
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozcli...Feb 13 15:02
twitteryo ho, yo ho, M$ Retail Failure, http://slashdot.org/fireho...Feb 13 15:02
schestowitzThey just don't want to listen. The Novell propaganda get 'em.Feb 13 15:03
twitterbombed to oblivion already.Feb 13 15:03
schestowitzYes, it will also empty their coffers for goodFeb 13 15:03
schestowitzIt shows they lack directionFeb 13 15:03
schestowitzHad they managed to carry on with business, they would resort to selling hardware, filing patents, opening stores, etc.Feb 13 15:04
MethodOnemaybe i've been using debian-based distros too muchFeb 13 15:04
MethodOneand i think of the metapackages thereFeb 13 15:04
twitterSlashdot picked up another, more positive entry http://slashdot.org/article.pl...Feb 13 15:04
jose__MethodOne, I am not agreeing with what was said since i don't know. i assume it's correct.Feb 13 15:06
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schestowitzI lobbied journos to cover the issues with Mono/Moonlight when they write about it.Feb 13 15:07
schestowitzApathy prevailsFeb 13 15:07
schestowitzHi, Tina!Feb 13 15:07
schestowitzHere is one response I got (anonymised)Feb 13 15:07
schestowitz"Thanks for writing. I respect the energy and skepticism you bring to the anti-Novell site (are you still running that?) but having read and written about so many patent cross-licensing deals, so many joint marketing deals, so many reseller/distributor deals, between so many companies, over the course of so many years, I just can't see anything all that unusual in the MS/Novell partnership."Feb 13 15:07
schestowitz"There are sure a lot of things not to like about Microsoft, and I do tend to suspect their motives in a lot of cases, but their deal with Novell hasn't been one of them. "Feb 13 15:07
schestowitzThey are always the same people who cover Mono/Moonlight news, and it's always described as a Good Thing.Feb 13 15:08
tinagaspersonhello.Feb 13 15:08
schestowitzI see you write for Jupitermedia now.Feb 13 15:08
MethodOnein debian-based distros, there are metapackages like "gnome" and "kde"Feb 13 15:08
MethodOneand "build-essential"Feb 13 15:10
schestowitzDoes arch have a DE preference?Feb 13 15:14
twitterUmmm, can't these so called journalist see a difference between non free cross licensing and patent claims on free software?Feb 13 15:15
twitterSure, all of it is anti-competitive and bad but it all leads to the present where there is basically no commercial competition left and free software is the last target.Feb 13 15:15
schestowitzThey confuse this with the Novell dealFeb 13 15:17
schestowitzShane choosing the site name "Boycott Novell" does *not* helpFeb 13 15:17
twitterWhat would you like the site to be named?Feb 13 15:18
twitterIs this you Tina? http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/author.php...Feb 13 15:18
schestowitzJust posted http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/13/...Feb 13 15:19
schestowitztwitter: something like "intellectual monopoly watch", maybe?Feb 13 15:19
schestowitzJust no negativism in the titleFeb 13 15:19
twitterSoftware Monopoly Watch?Feb 13 15:20
twitternice article, http://www.linux.com/feature/147981Feb 13 15:25
twitterThe poor woman's history is even more scattered than my own.Feb 13 15:25
twitterI'm glad she found a place in the free software world.Feb 13 15:25
twitternice to have you here tina.  What are you working on?Feb 13 15:28
jose__i can live with boycottnovellFeb 13 15:28
jose__preferable would be something like Avoid MonopolysoftFeb 13 15:29
jose__but that's just meFeb 13 15:30
jose__roy, your suggestion probably represents what you do bestFeb 13 15:30
jose__best represents what you doFeb 13 15:30
schestowitzCarla became editor of some sites. She has been a lot more understanding than some others of the goals achieved by BNFeb 13 15:31
schestowitzjose__: monopolysoft sounds like some Macropolis-type name.. like Ubersoft.Feb 13 15:32
schestowitz:-) http://www.ubersoft.net/comic/hd/200...Feb 13 15:32
jose__monopolysoft contractor?Feb 13 15:32
jose__:-)Feb 13 15:32
schestowitzDarl?Feb 13 15:32
jose__uncle (lockness monster) pennybagsFeb 13 15:33
schestowitzI don't get it: http://tirania.org./blog/archive/...Feb 13 15:34
schestowitzNothing to do with de Icaza... €¿Is he pretending to have endorsement from Linus?Feb 13 15:35
jose__roy, maybe after the five year contract is up, you can switchFeb 13 15:37
jose__domainnamesFeb 13 15:37
schestowitzNovell contract (2006-jan2012)?Feb 13 15:38
jose__that sounds plausible but i don't know detailsFeb 13 15:38
schestowitzYeah...Feb 13 15:40
jose__novell stands out for me because of their dedicated pushing of technologies that significantly favor microsoft.. the other things they do only confirm their worshipiness of the lockness monsterFeb 13 15:40
schestowitzThey keep spreading myths.Feb 13 15:40
schestowitzBut they'll recite the 'consensus' that Microsoft is the bestest technology for the task. Microsoft has $4bn budget for marketing such imposed ignoranceFeb 13 15:41
schestowitzAnd people like benJIman help propagate itFeb 13 15:41
schestowitzMicrosoft, internal document: "Mind Control: To control mental output you have to control mental input.  Take control of the channels by which developers receive information, then they can only think about the things you tell them.  Thus, you control mindshare!"Feb 13 15:41
jose__well in all respects that come to mind just about, novell works for msFeb 13 15:41
jose__so boycottnovell is not too much worse than boycottmonopolysoftFeb 13 15:42
schestowitzAt behest of?Feb 13 15:42
jose__it might even be better come to think of itFeb 13 15:42
schestowitzBut what if Novell was absorbed like ATI?Feb 13 15:42
schestowitzThere is a "Microsoft hater" label but not a "Novell hater" labelFeb 13 15:42
jose__a more professional name though would be useful for having serious conversations with those that wanted to be seriousFeb 13 15:42
schestowitzLinux journalists know to beware of saying bad things about Microsoft or else the Enderles will label them "Microsoft haters"Feb 13 15:43
jose__novell defenders either fear their jobs or something, have expectations for $$$, or are under nda.. or all three, etc, wrt talking negatively about microsoftFeb 13 15:43
schestowitzThen they become "rotten Apple"Feb 13 15:43
schestowitzIt's like "unmaerican" or "commie"Feb 13 15:43
schestowitzThere's increased daemonisation of unions tooFeb 13 15:43
jose__i have not had a genuine conversation, i suspect, with the people defending microsoft or novell.. at least with those that do it over and overFeb 13 15:43
jose__of course, sometimes you do imagine that you did have a meaningful conversationFeb 13 15:44
schestowitzPeople who protest for peace.. you're supposed to hate them. The media tells you "they don't support the troops"Feb 13 15:44
jose__i'd rather remember those moments.Feb 13 15:44
jose__sniff sniffFeb 13 15:44
schestowitzWhich..?Feb 13 15:44
jose__which moments, people, or something else whichFeb 13 15:46
jose__fear of job makes a lot of senseFeb 13 15:47
jose__ballmer is unforgiving that wayFeb 13 15:47
jose__that's how such organizations are runFeb 13 15:47
schestowitzNovell's press release is disturbing: http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/...Feb 13 15:47
schestowitzWatch the headline. Novell is implying that only some touch of Microsoft codecs will "shed light" on desktop LinuxFeb 13 15:48
jose__more than yesterday's sam dean ad?Feb 13 15:48
schestowitz"THANK GOODNESS! Linux is saved by .NET and WMV!"Feb 13 15:48
schestowitzMary Jo Foley covered this tooFeb 13 15:49
schestowitzThe Windows people LOVE itFeb 13 15:49
jose__>> Novell's commitment to making Linux a first-class platform for multimedia and Rich Internet Applications. Moonlight provides the platform Linux users need to use Silverlight and Windows* Media content.Feb 13 15:49
schestowitzIt makes Mirosoft strongerFeb 13 15:49
jose__exactlyFeb 13 15:49
jose__about us being savedFeb 13 15:49
twitterIcaza has a sense of humor or at least appreciates Linus'Feb 13 15:50
jose__>> "Microsoft Silverlight offers the most comprehensive and powerful solution for the creation and delivery of rich internet applications and media experiences, and is used by hundreds of thousands of developers worldwide," said Scott Guthrie, corporate vice president of the .NET Developer Division at Microsoft Corp. "We have worked with the Moonlight team and Novell to enable interoperability between Windows and Linux platforms and extend the high-quaFeb 13 15:50
jose__lity interactive Web and video experience for the benefit of the Linux community."Feb 13 15:50
schestowitz Paul Krill wrote about this tooFeb 13 15:51
schestowitzI betcha Microsoft is applying pressure to journalists to write about thisFeb 13 15:51
jose__are all of these people using silverlight because visstud got the plugins or something?Feb 13 15:51
jose__moneyFeb 13 15:51
schestowitz"Come on," they say. "Write about this Linux thing. We love it at Microsoft Corp."Feb 13 15:51
schestowitzPeace and harmoneyFeb 13 15:51
schestowitzPeace and harmony with OUR APIFeb 13 15:52
schestowitzOUR patentsFeb 13 15:52
schestowitzOur roadmapFeb 13 15:52
jose__our linux distroFeb 13 15:52
schestowitzSUSEFeb 13 15:52
schestowitzMSUSEFeb 13 15:52
schestowitzMS USEFeb 13 15:52
schestowitzMS SUEFeb 13 15:52
twitterMiS USEFeb 13 15:53
schestowitzNovell cuts SUSE developers < http://www.itworldcanada.com/a/News/14a78... >Feb 13 15:53
schestowitzThere's more coming though. It's a shame that they cut in this departmentFeb 13 15:54
twitterthey need the money for astroturf.Feb 13 15:54
schestowitzBut the boycott is aimed at preventing Novell from subverting LinuxFeb 13 15:54
schestowitzI don't care about their Netware sideFeb 13 15:54
twitterFunny how these "multimedia Linux" articles don't mention VLC or MythTVFeb 13 15:55
jose__it's horrible when so much money and leverage is concentrated in such few hands.Feb 13 15:55
twitterWMV and Silverlight, wow.  Where would free software be without second rate codecs.Feb 13 15:55
jose__it only gets worse as that growsFeb 13 15:55
jose__ms is slurping the proprie of all of these "parters"Feb 13 15:56
schestowitzFreudian?Feb 13 15:57
jose__apparently with the blessing from major shareholders.. i'm thinking vmware for exampleFeb 13 15:57
twitterThere have been a couple of setbacks, like Groklaw and Technocrat demise, but Boycott Novell and other success more than makes up for it.Feb 13 15:57
schestowitzParters  Feb 13 15:57
twitterWedgiFeb 13 15:57
twitterpartersFeb 13 15:57
schestowitzI deleted Technocrat from my list today because there's no chance of it coming back -- for nowFeb 13 15:58
schestowitzWEDGi?Feb 13 15:58
schestowitzThat's another name for EDGIFeb 13 15:58
schestowitzIn one of the E-mails they call it thatFeb 13 15:58
twitterYes,  WEDGI.  It's funny how the fundi christians called their Intelligent Design attack on evolution the "Wedge" project too.Feb 13 15:58
twitterIt's like the same bunch of nutbags doing both.Feb 13 15:58
twitterhttp://www.infidels.org/secula...Feb 13 15:59
schestowitzMOGara is still focusing on Novell stuffFeb 13 16:00
schestowitzIt's like an attempt to boost their business. Never a word about Ubuntu from Maureen or anyone else in Sys-con..Feb 13 16:00
twitterThat's interesting.  Ubuntu is larger than Suse isn't it?Feb 13 16:01
twitterIf Sys-con were writing about what their readers rather than their advertisers cared about, they would write about Ubuntu.Feb 13 16:02
schestowitz2008: Novell Ships Moonlight 1.0 < http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Applicati... >Feb 13 16:03
schestowitzWhat is going on there?Feb 13 16:03
schestowitzIs Novell re-announcing old s/w?Feb 13 16:03
schestowitzI was surprised by the press release actually because I thought it had already been releasedFeb 13 16:03
jose__yeah, i noticed thatFeb 13 16:04
jose__and this one is dated feb 9 09Feb 13 16:04
schestowitztwitter: in Sys-con it's about what pays them... they do conferences and stuff. SCO, Novell, Microsoft, cloud (lockin).... never anything to do with FreedomFeb 13 16:04
jose__sorry.. feb 11Feb 13 16:04
schestowitzSo what's the explanation?Feb 13 16:04
schestowitzWhat's the news?Feb 13 16:04
jose__it's an adFeb 13 16:04
jose__running old ads is fineFeb 13 16:05
schestowitzThe comments in Linux Today are good: http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php...Feb 13 16:05
schestowitz\Raise an issue with Moonlight in LXer and you'll be attacked by the vocal houndsFeb 13 16:05
schestowitzjose__: really? Just old news?Feb 13 16:05
schestowitzThe press release is basically no news: http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news...Feb 13 16:08
schestowitzIt's just a bunch of old news packaged up to fool reporters and pressure users to install this poisonFeb 13 16:08
*[H]omer has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Feb 13 16:09
jose__it's an adFeb 13 16:12
jose__ads are repeated so that users have many opportunitiesFeb 13 16:12
jose__btw, i'm just trying to put a label on the adFeb 13 16:13
jose__we all advertizeFeb 13 16:13
jose__repeatedlyFeb 13 16:13
jose__i know i doFeb 13 16:13
jose__(sorry folks)Feb 13 16:13
jose__Roy, certainly from reading over the intros to each of those artibles spaced some 9 months appart. they each appear to be introducing the same productFeb 13 16:15
jose__nevermindFeb 13 16:15
jose__the difference is that in the first case they claim to support silverlight 1.0Feb 13 16:16
jose__in the second case, they are releasing moonlight 1.0Feb 13 16:16
schestowitz"No financial details were disclosed". Huh??? http://linux.sys-con.com/node/840669Feb 13 16:16
schestowitzIt's always there to suggest that money is paid to Microsoft for MoonlightFeb 13 16:16
*sanskumar has quit ("Leaving")Feb 13 16:16
jose__moon-0.6.tar.bz2 is presumably version 0.6 of moonlightFeb 13 16:16
jose__20,000 of many millions is not too much [<2%]Feb 13 16:19
schestowitzWatch Novell employees boosting Moonlight in OSNews: http://www.osnews.com/thread?348477Feb 13 16:19
jose__drop last comment.. i thought they were talking about silverlight. in any case, silverlight gets installed if ms wants and if you run windowsFeb 13 16:20
schestowitzYesFeb 13 16:21
schestowitzWatch the Novellers...Feb 13 16:21
schestowitzThey don't work for Novell much..Feb 13 16:21
schestowitzThey just leave comments in Web sitesFeb 13 16:21
schestowitzSo much for productivityFeb 13 16:21
schestowitzThey try to tell it so that Microsoft carries on felling Novell (i.e. pays their wages)Feb 13 16:22
schestowitz*fuellingFeb 13 16:22
jose__roy, the group that posts comments don't have to overlap with those writing codeFeb 13 16:24
jose__a commentFeb 13 16:25
jose__>> To get an idea of the cost of these codecs, you can look at Fluendo's own codec pack, that goes for 28 euros per machine. It seems reasonable that Microsoft would choose to only distribute the codecs that they have licensed from MPEGLA and Fraunhofer for use in Moonlight and not to solve Linux's media problems for us.Feb 13 16:25
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schestowitzjose__: that would serve Microsoft, yeah...Feb 13 16:33
schestowitzAnything that make Linux more expensive is good for themFeb 13 16:34
schestowitzMark Shuttleworth made this point 2 years ago. The cost must stay $0Feb 13 16:34
*mib_4z2zbj has quit (Client Quit)Feb 13 16:34
jose__superconductivityFeb 13 16:35
jose__you get a lot more bang for buck of energyFeb 13 16:35
jose__don't know if that was a good analogyFeb 13 16:35
jose__but point is that even the smallest costFeb 13 16:35
jose__will become a real impedimentFeb 13 16:35
*[H]omer (n=[H]omer@amsterdam.perfect-privacy.com) has joined #boycottnovellFeb 13 16:35
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to [H]omerFeb 13 16:35
jose__that last comment....Feb 13 16:36
jose__leveraging ms gunkFeb 13 16:36
jose__to take over linuxFeb 13 16:36
jose__now ms claims they will deal with anyoneFeb 13 16:36
*Casperin has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Feb 13 16:36
jose__but under what termsFeb 13 16:37
jose__their old game is to favorFeb 13 16:37
jose__as they take over a marketFeb 13 16:37
jose__kind of like ie gets favored treatment over all other browsersFeb 13 16:37
jose__the law is too slowFeb 13 16:37
jose__that's why i like BNFeb 13 16:37
*mikankun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Feb 13 16:38
jose__http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-c...Feb 13 16:39
jose__http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/06/ron-h...Feb 13 16:40
jose__Let's see, ms attempts to branch out into every industry.Feb 13 16:43
jose__they spread their old execsFeb 13 16:43
jose__a primary company is chosen to manage region XFeb 13 16:44
jose__the other companies are drained of their goodsFeb 13 16:44
jose__sounds like a planFeb 13 16:44
jose__and all along, you have the B$M Foundry to smile for the cameras and have people feel warm and fuzzyFeb 13 16:45
*MethodOne has quit ("Ex-Chat")Feb 13 16:46
jose__now, let's go out and schmooze troops!!!Feb 13 16:46
schestowitzYes, that's how it goesFeb 13 16:49
schestowitzThat's why you have to check people's history.Feb 13 16:49
schestowitzMicrosoft turned enemy Novell into an ally after Ray Noorda had passed awayFeb 13 16:49
schestowitzAs one reader put it, "Join us or die"Feb 13 16:50
schestowitzMicrosoft even tried to do market division with NetscapeFeb 13 16:50
schestowitzIOW, Microsoft tried to turn competition into a part of Microsoft's ecosystem.Feb 13 16:50
schestowitzIt is often stressed that Microsoft is like communism and this is just whyFeb 13 16:51
jose__roy, after a handful of bug reports on mono that get closed immediately without conversation, etc, maybe bn can do a piece on it.Feb 13 16:52
jose__save the links and then we have to make sure the bug reports are reasonableFeb 13 16:52
schestowitzI think we gave examples of Ubuntu onesFeb 13 16:52
jose__devs may want to avoid "politics"Feb 13 16:52
schestowitzUnless you have a good list of many examplesFeb 13 16:53
schestowitzBesides, it can be used against us.Feb 13 16:53
jose__personally, speaking as a dev and user, i think the patent-api issue is convincingFeb 13 16:53
jose__you may not like patents, but to take what is known to be a real risk is not very acceptableFeb 13 16:53
*mib_pwf5tl (i=8258be83@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4018e1187157dc2e) has joined #boycottnovellFeb 13 16:53
jose__at least if you accually value FOSS and the licenses these projects tend to includeFeb 13 16:54
jose__actually not accuallyFeb 13 16:54
jose__(i mentioned that typo because i tend to make it so want to stop)Feb 13 16:54
schestowitzS3 Graphics Still Talks Up Linux Support, But Fails < http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=... >Feb 13 16:54
jose__commercial interests benefiting from encumbered foss might do well to have developers on staff for just such an occasionFeb 13 16:55


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