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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 4th, 2009 - Part 1


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schestowitzSome people use the GUIsApr 04 00:00
Balrog_some people refuse to use linux for that reasonApr 04 00:00
oiaohmSo developers who should have built good X11 gui tools went to webmin.Apr 04 00:00
oiaohmTimes will change once X11 is stable.Apr 04 00:00
Balrog_X11 is stable, isn't it?Apr 04 00:01
*tacone downloading suseApr 04 00:01
oiaohmIf you call switching between console mode and X11 beening able to make video card usable stable.  Balrog_Apr 04 00:01
Balrog_why suse?Apr 04 00:01
taconewhy not ?Apr 04 00:01
Balrog_oiaohm: usually the video card works for me.Apr 04 00:02
oiaohmDo it enough times with DRI 1 drivers you are dead.Apr 04 00:02
oiaohmEven DRI2 drivers without KMS.Apr 04 00:02
Balrog_as I said, works for meApr 04 00:02
oiaohmKMS also means X11 locks are switchable away.Apr 04 00:03
oiaohmStableApr 04 00:03
oiaohmJust because something works lots of the time does not mean its not badly broken.Apr 04 00:03
_Hicham_1can u explain KMS?Apr 04 00:03
oiaohmNTFS on windows is a good example of that.Apr 04 00:03
oiaohmKMS Kernel Mode Switching.Apr 04 00:04
oiaohmThe kernel take control of switching access from video card from like X11 to terminal or to framebuffer.Apr 04 00:04
_Hicham_1and what is the advantage of that? speed? safety?Apr 04 00:05
oiaohmCompared to current method of hog pog chatter between X11 and console mode.  You pray they get it right every time you do it.Apr 04 00:05
oiaohmsafety and speed.Apr 04 00:05
_Hicham_1KMS is introduced with 2.6.29, right?Apr 04 00:06
oiaohmFor intel cards yes _Hicham_1Apr 04 00:06
_Hicham_1just for intel cards?Apr 04 00:06
oiaohmHopefully ATI support will appear in 2.6.29Apr 04 00:06
oiaohmOppsApr 04 00:06
oiaohm2.6.30Apr 04 00:06
oiaohmSupport required driver design alterations _Hicham_1Apr 04 00:06
_Hicham_1the radeon driver will be modified then?Apr 04 00:07
oiaohmMost radeon cards will stop using closed source drivers.Apr 04 00:07
oiaohmInstead use the open source drivers that support it.Apr 04 00:07
_Hicham_1as an AMD initiative to cut costsApr 04 00:08
_Hicham_1u told me that last timeApr 04 00:08
_Hicham_1will that help reduce boot time?Apr 04 00:08
oiaohmIt makes sence from stablity as well.Apr 04 00:08
*amarsh04 wants to get a new athlon/radeon based desktop machine soon... if I can still find someone who can get a 45 W CPU and low power graphics cardApr 04 00:08
oiaohmKMS removes flicker when booting.Apr 04 00:08
oiaohmNot really a stablity change.Apr 04 00:08
oiaohmbut nice just the same.Apr 04 00:09
Balrog_I'm moving to nouveauApr 04 00:09
Balrog_is it KMS?Apr 04 00:09
Balrog_I already use it on one system)Apr 04 00:09
oiaohmnouveau will support KMSApr 04 00:09
Balrog_does it already?Apr 04 00:09
oiaohmI would have to look.Apr 04 00:09
Balrog_or do I need a later kernel?Apr 04 00:09
oiaohmKMS required a kernel module.Apr 04 00:09
_Hicham_1does that mean that plymouth will be available ?Apr 04 00:09
Balrog_ 04 00:10
_Hicham_1I heard that plymouth will be able to use native drivers during bootApr 04 00:10
Balrog_"If the company isn't careful, it will find itself stuck in price comparisons with Apple that only highlight how much cheaper Linux PCs can be without Windows, and usability comparisons with Linux that highlight how much more attractive Macs are to buyers who don't want to deal with complication."Apr 04 00:10
Balrog_<<quoteApr 04 00:10
Balrog_and Linux usability will quickly improve, and MS will lose $$$Apr 04 00:10
Balrog_also that 'songsmith' commercial ... well, :XApr 04 00:11
oiaohmKMS + GEM + DRI2 addes a lot of features people cannot dream off.Apr 04 00:12
oiaohmLike running 2 X11 servers side by side and having 3d support.Apr 04 00:12
Balrog_oiaohm: except that it's not ready yet :/Apr 04 00:12
Balrog_yeah.Apr 04 00:12
Balrog_what about that replacement for X11 that one redhat engineer is working on??Apr 04 00:12
oiaohmThen allowing you to have 1 of those X11 servers displayed inside the other one.Apr 04 00:12
oiaohmLoad up a framebuffer application then have both of those X11 servers displayed in it.Apr 04 00:13
oiaohmBasically stacking of graphical envorments will become possiable.Apr 04 00:13
oiaohmThe redhat guy with the prototype X11 server is working out what can be done.Apr 04 00:14
oiaohmIt is turning out to be lots.Apr 04 00:14
oiaohmNext question is what is most useful to users.Apr 04 00:14
Balrog_I see.Apr 04 00:14
Balrog_any blog on what he's doing?Apr 04 00:14
schestowitzUse PhoronixApr 04 00:16
schestowitzSearch by subjectApr 04 00:17
schestowitzNo coverage about this in a while, thoughApr 04 00:17
Balrog_then I have nothing to look atApr 04 00:17
schestowitz 04 00:18
schestowitz 04 00:18
Balrog_schestowitz: how do you feel about those anti-Apple ads? I think they're giving reasons for using LinuxApr 04 00:18
schestowitzBalrog: let them shoot each otherApr 04 00:18
oiaohm  << release nots off waylandApr 04 00:18
tacone?Apr 04 00:18
schestowitzMicrosoft makes fun of MacApr 04 00:18
taconeshot each other ?Apr 04 00:18
oiaohmRemember MS people complaining about all the levels of extraction X11 has.Apr 04 00:18
schestowitzApple makes fun of WindowsApr 04 00:18
oiaohmWayland has none of it.Apr 04 00:19
schestowitzNo-one makes fun of Linux on TVApr 04 00:19
taconeseems to me they do publicity to each otehr.Apr 04 00:19
taconeotherApr 04 00:19
oiaohmLots and lots of direct to video card rendering.Apr 04 00:19
schestowitztacone: that tooApr 04 00:19
schestowitzAt the expense of their buyersApr 04 00:19
taconei'm pc / i'm macApr 04 00:19
schestowitzWho do you think pays for these adverts?Apr 04 00:19
schestowitzLike all adverts?Apr 04 00:20
taconepromote duopoly, and stay very careful to never compete directly on anythingApr 04 00:20
schestowitzOn average, 25% of the price of anything you buy covers marketingApr 04 00:20
tacone(but zune/ipod, that's a different market though)Apr 04 00:20
schestowitzGNu/Linux costs $0, typicallyApr 04 00:20
schestowitzThat's 25% of $0 :-)Apr 04 00:20
schestowitzZune is in a differnet marketApr 04 00:20
schestowitzMortuaries.Apr 04 00:20
taconezombies :-)Apr 04 00:21
Balrog_I know of a few zune usersApr 04 00:21
Balrog_many regret their purchase :Apr 04 00:21
Balrog_:PApr 04 00:21
schestowitz 04 00:21
schestowitzThey should change the label there in RemondApr 04 00:21
schestowitzIt should say "buy me"Apr 04 00:22
schestowitzOr..Apr 04 00:22
schestowitzThey could keep the label and put Zunes in itApr 04 00:22
schestowitzMake a bonfireApr 04 00:22
Balrog_I hear that several Zunes got in there :PApr 04 00:22
schestowitzThe toxins will fill the buildingsApr 04 00:22
taconegates are bad parents. they don't have their children to have the iPod.Apr 04 00:22
schestowitzThus disracting the engineersApr 04 00:22
schestowitzmaking them high like Steve BallmerApr 04 00:22
Balrog_tacone: ballmer is much worse in that regardApr 04 00:23
taconewhat does it do ?Apr 04 00:23
taconedoesn't allow children to eat apples ?Apr 04 00:23
Balrog_he doesn't allow them to use google eitherApr 04 00:24
taconeoh, well :)Apr 04 00:24
Balrog_ 04 00:24
Balrog_that's a little dated, but I've seen newer onesApr 04 00:25
taconei doubt they will get good school results with Live Search.Apr 04 00:25
Balrog_I never get good results with live searchApr 04 00:25
schestowitzSo how do they search the Web?Apr 04 00:25
schestowitzYahoo ! portal?Apr 04 00:25
Balrog_when I install windows (I have to at times), I always replace live search in IE with google and yahooApr 04 00:25
Balrog_google defaulyApr 04 00:26
Balrog_default *Apr 04 00:26
schestowitzHahaApr 04 00:26
schestowitzThey use croogleApr 04 00:26
schestowitzI knew it!Apr 04 00:26
Balrog_and remove liveApr 04 00:26
schestowitz*scroogleApr 04 00:26
taconethey probably start from Windows Live DirectoryApr 04 00:26
taconeand browse the web one link at once.Apr 04 00:26
amarsh04there is a need for alternative search engines... what is there besides google, ms, and yahoo?Apr 04 00:26
schestowitz"But DAD... live SUCKS BALLS!"Apr 04 00:26
oiaohmDon't forget the wayback machine amarsh04Apr 04 00:27
amarsh04true, oiaohmApr 04 00:27
oiaohmFor all that stuff google yahoo and MS cannot access any more.Apr 04 00:27
taconeuh, wikia just closed, I guessApr 04 00:27
taconeofficially gave up, i meant.Apr 04 00:27
amarsh04wow, is still upApr 04 00:28
oiaohmMost of the old search engines are still around.Apr 04 00:28
taconeoh, and there was a mad project of a p2p search engine in launchpadApr 04 00:28
taconeI guess they never got even the basic things working.Apr 04 00:28
oiaohmIts just hard to compete with super powers like google that have the power to build there own truly custom servers.Apr 04 00:28
Balrog_wikia is closed?Apr 04 00:29
oiaohmYes truly custom right down to there own motherboards.Apr 04 00:29
Balrog_hehApr 04 00:29
Balrog_idk how they can have a patent on something as obvious as an integrated batteryApr 04 00:29
_Hicham_1Encarta will be closedApr 04 00:29
Balrog_though that could have been apr foolsApr 04 00:29
amarsh04doesn't find anything though )-:Apr 04 00:29
Balrog_encarta is done.Apr 04 00:29
Balrog_explain 'wikia is closed'...?Apr 04 00:30
_Hicham_1Encarta will disappear by the end of this yearApr 04 00:30
oiaohmMS is running out of money to maintain things.Apr 04 00:30
schestowitzMicrosoft ruins it :-)Apr 04 00:30
schestowitzBuy and buryApr 04 00:30
oiaohmEncarta is just the first of many to go.Apr 04 00:30
oiaohmMS will become a lot leaner company if nothing else.Apr 04 00:31
schestowitzRemember Cuil?Apr 04 00:31
schestowitzaka Google killer?Apr 04 00:31
schestowitzOh Knol?Apr 04 00:31
DaemonFCEncarta is closing?Apr 04 00:31
taconeBalrog_: i meant.. wikia search.Apr 04 00:31
schestowitzBritannica is trying to copy Wikipedia now. It ran out of ideasApr 04 00:31
schestowitzDaemonFC: yesApr 04 00:32
tacone 04 00:32
_Hicham_1vive wikipediaApr 04 00:32
oiaohmI forget wikipediaApr 04 00:32 doesn't work without javascript enabled, and has limited resultsApr 04 00:32
DaemonFCWikipedia?Apr 04 00:32
oiaohmIt does make a good search/compare site for applications.Apr 04 00:32
_Hicham_1there is a wikipedia cd for offline useApr 04 00:32
Balrog_ah that.Apr 04 00:32
DaemonFCWikipedia is not a good thing to trustApr 04 00:32
DaemonFCanyone can edit itApr 04 00:32
taconethe world is not a good thing to trust.Apr 04 00:32
DaemonFCso they can insert wrong infoApr 04 00:33
_Hicham_1Wikipedia is very well managedApr 04 00:33
oiaohmDaemonFC: can you trust that a auther of a book was not bias.Apr 04 00:33
DaemonFCnot reallyApr 04 00:33
_Hicham_1and controlled tooApr 04 00:33
taconewhat other you trust better than wikipedia ?Apr 04 00:33
DaemonFCa few people with politically charged opinionsApr 04 00:33
DaemonFCedit out others contributionsApr 04 00:33
_Hicham_1DaemonFC : I tried what u r sayingApr 04 00:33
DaemonFCsystematicallyApr 04 00:33
DaemonFCyou have entire unsourced articlesApr 04 00:33
DaemonFCwritten by some guyApr 04 00:33
oiaohmProblem here what you are saying you find in books too DaemonFCApr 04 00:34
_Hicham_1DaemonFC : source themApr 04 00:34
_Hicham_1:DApr 04 00:34
amarsh04google still finds stepdaughter's web page on 8th match on her nameApr 04 00:34
taconeor revert them to previous versions.Apr 04 00:34
_Hicham_1or put an objectionApr 04 00:34
DaemonFCfor example, the ChristiansApr 04 00:34
DaemonFCthey make sure the anti-gay articles reflect themselves in a positive mannerApr 04 00:34
taconebtw is not about how much you trust wikipediaApr 04 00:34
taconeis what can you trust more than that ?Apr 04 00:35
_Hicham_1DaemonFC : why did u choose anti-gay articles?Apr 04 00:35
oiaohmwikipedia is only a tool like any other reference sources.Apr 04 00:35
DaemonFCjust a good exampleApr 04 00:35
DaemonFCWikipedia is hijacked by special interestsApr 04 00:35
DaemonFClike ChristiansApr 04 00:35
oiaohmAnd the bible is not DaemonFC?Apr 04 00:35
DaemonFCand is fileld with bogus articlesApr 04 00:35
oiaohmThey cannot even get the words right in it.Apr 04 00:35
oiaohmThere have been errors in every reference source though out time.Apr 04 00:36
Balrog_hrm?Apr 04 00:36
oiaohmCauses by special interests.Apr 04 00:36
schestowitzWikipedia contains referencesApr 04 00:36
schestowitz.If you don't trust it, then click End for bottom of pageApr 04 00:36
DaemonFCCharlatans and Frauds, AKA Christians, make sure anti-gay articles are totally biuased in their favorApr 04 00:36
DaemonFCit's a Wiki gangApr 04 00:36
DaemonFCand you see that all over the siteApr 04 00:37
oiaohmWikipedia is not peferect.Apr 04 00:37
Balrog_"Charlatans and Frauds, AKA Christians" ... that's an over-generalization, IMOApr 04 00:37
DaemonFCWikipedia is a Republican/Christian/Big Business mouth pieceApr 04 00:37
oiaohmThe church messes with print media as well at different times in history.Apr 04 00:37
DaemonFCit is  Fox News only it looks fairApr 04 00:37
_Hicham_1DaemonFC : so u want them to promote gay articles?Apr 04 00:37
taconewikipedia is to be taken with some salt as anything else.Apr 04 00:37
amarsh04If you don't like what a web site posts, put up your own web pages to say whyApr 04 00:37
oiaohmThere is no reference matterials that are above what you are saying DaemonFCApr 04 00:37
DaemonFCI find Christians to be the most despicable peopleApr 04 00:37
taconebut i still don't see anything better or comparableApr 04 00:38
DaemonFCthey just outright smear anyone they hateApr 04 00:38
oiaohmJust most people using wikipedia are aware of it.Apr 04 00:38
DaemonFCand they get away with whatever they wantApr 04 00:38
_Hicham_1DaemonFC : they let u change thingsApr 04 00:38
oiaohmDaemonFC: can you document any reference source where that cannot happen?Apr 04 00:38
DaemonFCeven when they so clearly have their head up their collective assApr 04 00:38
_Hicham_1schestowitz : I think that he is beginningApr 04 00:39
oiaohmDaemonFC: Look at the other reference sources out there can you say what is happening in the wikipedia has never happened in the others?Apr 04 00:39
DaemonFCWikipedia just sucksApr 04 00:39
DaemonFCthere is no fixing itApr 04 00:39
DaemonFCthe endApr 04 00:39
_Hicham_1ok, that shows it againApr 04 00:39
DaemonFCthere's no fixing itApr 04 00:39
oiaohmDifference is Wikipedia you can see the revisions.Apr 04 00:39
DaemonFCcause no matter how wrong they are, there's more of themApr 04 00:39
oiaohmIf wikipedia is not fixable might as well destroy all libraries.Apr 04 00:40
_Hicham_1Wikipedia sucks, KDE Krap, Linux is just a clone, and so on ...Apr 04 00:40
oiaohmBecause they have the same problem in lots of there books.Apr 04 00:40
_Hicham_1we know what u will sayApr 04 00:40
DaemonFCthey doctor up quotes by crackpot Christian zealots posing as qualified mental health expertsApr 04 00:40
DaemonFCand that shit fliesApr 04 00:40
oiaohmDaemonFC: is Hell a real word of a made up one.Apr 04 00:40
_Hicham_1oiaohm : don't feed the trollApr 04 00:40
DaemonFCHell is having to deal with a group of fascist moronsApr 04 00:41
DaemonFCwho run the whole showApr 04 00:41
DaemonFC(Christians)Apr 04 00:41
oiaohmHell is infact a translation error.Apr 04 00:41
oiaohmThe correct word is not Hell.Apr 04 00:41
oiaohmThe descriptions of Hell are also wrong.Apr 04 00:41
taconeit's shell ?Apr 04 00:41
oiaohmIn the bibble because they have been changed to get converts.Apr 04 00:41
oiaohmIts like the walking on water bit it never happenedApr 04 00:42
oiaohmAnother great miss translation.Apr 04 00:42
Balrog_many of these interpretations are highly disputed.Apr 04 00:42
DaemonFCI think Jesus was just made of fizzy popApr 04 00:42
DaemonFCthats why he floated on waterApr 04 00:42
DaemonFCB-)Apr 04 00:42
oiaohmHe walked besided water.Apr 04 00:42
Balrog_you really need to know greek and hebrew if you want to do that kind of research :/Apr 04 00:42
DaemonFCthat's scienctific explanationApr 04 00:42
_Hicham_1oiaohm : do u think Linux needs a unified package management system?Apr 04 00:42
DaemonFCquick copy it to WikipediaApr 04 00:42
oiaohmSome how that got translated to he walked on water.Apr 04 00:42
oiaohm_Hicham_1: Linux will get one in time.Apr 04 00:43
DaemonFCNo it won't, and it won't matter if it doesApr 04 00:43
DaemonFCJust look at how compatible RPM distros areApr 04 00:43
DaemonFCB-)Apr 04 00:43
DaemonFCyou install one thing and 20 dependency problrmsApr 04 00:43
oiaohmLSB is building a frame work that does not care about the distributions runtime.Apr 04 00:43
DaemonFCcause it was built for Red Hat and you're running it on MandrivaApr 04 00:44
oiaohmThe Linux kernel is perfectly stable ABI to userspace.Apr 04 00:44
oiaohmSo the issue you are talking about is not important DaemonFCApr 04 00:44
DaemonFCunless every distro used the same versions of the same shared librariesApr 04 00:44
DaemonFCit wouldn't matterApr 04 00:44
DaemonFCcause they're incompatible with packages from the othersApr 04 00:44
oiaohmApplications ship there own from a common source DaemonFCApr 04 00:44
oiaohmThat is not linked to any distribution.Apr 04 00:45
DaemonFCthat's where Gentoo resorts to compiling from sourceApr 04 00:45
oiaohmYes that upper crap does not matter at all.Apr 04 00:45
DaemonFCwhich is poor comrpomise for installing and usingApr 04 00:45
oiaohmLSB is taking a different path.Apr 04 00:45
DaemonFCLinux may as well be Proprietary UNIX, that's what I meantApr 04 00:45
oiaohmIn time there will be 1 format for all.Apr 04 00:46
DaemonFCdifferent distros are incompatible, and that's the intentionApr 04 00:46
oiaohmLSB intention.Apr 04 00:46
oiaohmTo bring all distributions into 1.Apr 04 00:46
DaemonFCLSB is ran by the companies that want to be incompatibleApr 04 00:46
oiaohmThey are not as incompatible as most distributions think.Apr 04 00:46
schestowitzNopeApr 04 00:46
schestowitzself expressionApr 04 00:46
DaemonFCIt's no different than IRIX vs Solaris vs HP-UXApr 04 00:46
schestowitzLike DebianApr 04 00:46
_Hicham_1oiaohm : do u think rpm and dpkg can merge?Apr 04 00:46
oiaohmLSB has distribution makers and ISV.Apr 04 00:46
amarsh04I see more cooperation between different linux distributions in a day than there ever were between different proprietary unixesApr 04 00:46
DaemonFCthey're all UNIX, they alll certifyApr 04 00:46
DaemonFCwhy are they not compatible?Apr 04 00:47
DaemonFCcause the vendor doesn't want them toApr 04 00:47
oiaohmI think rpm and dpkg will become not important.Apr 04 00:47
DaemonFCthey only just say thatApr 04 00:47
oiaohmLike evey other package manager.Apr 04 00:47
oiaohmIn time the importance of distributions will be nuked by the needs if ISV's.Apr 04 00:47
_Hicham_1oiaohm : they are the main package managersApr 04 00:47
oiaohmISV=Independant Software Vendors.Apr 04 00:47
oiaohmNeeds if ISV is the means to install everywhere no matter what.Apr 04 00:48
_Hicham_1oiaohm : so u say that something like autopackage will win?Apr 04 00:48
taconelike klik perhaps.Apr 04 00:48
oiaohmSo Package mangers come nothering more than something to put a wraper around to register with and to extract information from to reduce downloads.Apr 04 00:48
oiaohmBasically not important.Apr 04 00:48
taconebundled libs everywhere.Apr 04 00:49
oiaohmDaemonFC: Linux Standard Base has two forces not 1.Apr 04 00:49
DaemonFCthere's no such thing as a Linux Standards BaseApr 04 00:49
DaemonFCthey might call it that, but it's not what it isApr 04 00:49
DaemonFCor doesApr 04 00:49
DaemonFCit's just another SUSApr 04 00:50
DaemonFC;)Apr 04 00:50
DaemonFCand there's no such thing as a software standard anywayApr 04 00:50
oiaohmDo you know how much of the current desktop envorment on Linux depends on standards from Linux Standards Base.Apr 04 00:50
DaemonFC\standards are for steel beamsApr 04 00:50
oiaohmThere are standards.Apr 04 00:51
DaemonFCthey're not true standardsApr 04 00:51
oiaohmThey are followed.Apr 04 00:51
DaemonFCcause there's no penalty for breaking them, and there's buggy test suitesApr 04 00:51
DaemonFCand there's wiggle roomApr 04 00:51
DaemonFCB-)Apr 04 00:51
oiaohmYes there is a penalty.Apr 04 00:51
DaemonFCwhat, you get your phony standard phony certification revoked?Apr 04 00:51
DaemonFCthe one that is meaningless?Apr 04 00:52
oiaohmISV got pissed and now added a way that applications will be able to ship there own LSB runtime.Apr 04 00:52
DaemonFC:PApr 04 00:52
oiaohmSo you dont follow standard.Apr 04 00:52
oiaohmYour users suffer.Apr 04 00:52
oiaohmDistributions refused to always provide LSB dynamic loader.Apr 04 00:53
oiaohmSo that will be embeded into LSB binaries.Apr 04 00:53
DaemonFCLSB is just masturbationApr 04 00:53
oiaohmNot really DaemonFCApr 04 00:53
DaemonFCit's not consistent, it only defines "some" thingsApr 04 00:53
oiaohmYou cannot force distributions to follow.Apr 04 00:53
oiaohmBut you can make them not important.Apr 04 00:53
DaemonFCand it's made sot hat only corporate distros can get certifiedApr 04 00:53
DaemonFCso til it's a real standardApr 04 00:54
DaemonFCit may as well not existApr 04 00:54
oiaohmIf LSB did not exist we would still have configuration files on every distribution in different locations.Apr 04 00:54
DaemonFCLSB is just as ugly as ACPIApr 04 00:54
DaemonFCand we know what a great standard ACPI isApr 04 00:54
oiaohmAnd with different names.Apr 04 00:54
DaemonFCand how it always worksApr 04 00:54
DaemonFCconsistentlyApr 04 00:54
DaemonFCeverywhereApr 04 00:54
oiaohmI never said LSB was a clean standard.Apr 04 00:55
DaemonFCand how suspend/resume never failsApr 04 00:55
oiaohmOr a complete 1.Apr 04 00:55
oiaohmLSB is a standard in the process of being developed.Apr 04 00:55
DaemonFCLSB is meaninglessApr 04 00:55
_Hicham_1like freedesktopApr 04 00:55
_Hicham_1look at freedesktopApr 04 00:55
DaemonFCthere can be *no* wiggle room, *no* bugs in the test suite, and *everything* you are standardizing must be definedApr 04 00:56
_Hicham_1freedesktop is really a great projectApr 04 00:56
DaemonFCand there has to be penalty for non-complianceApr 04 00:56
DaemonFCotherwise LSB is masturbationApr 04 00:56
_Hicham_1freedesktop is allowing us to integrate applications i DEs seemleslyApr 04 00:56
oiaohmDaemonFC: you cannot just create a house without laying foundations.Apr 04 00:56
_Hicham_1via specificationsApr 04 00:56
oiaohmIts the same with creating a large standard.Apr 04 00:57
DaemonFCall LSB tells me is that my Ubuntu wil act somewhat like his Fedora or that guys MandrivaApr 04 00:57
oiaohmLSB has been building the foundation.Apr 04 00:57
DaemonFCwhat a wonderful, useful thing that isApr 04 00:57
DaemonFCright?Apr 04 00:57
DaemonFCall by itself it has solved nothingApr 04 00:57
DaemonFCbut sounds coolApr 04 00:57
oiaohmBefore LSB you could not even have text base applications be portable.Apr 04 00:57
DaemonFCB-)Apr 04 00:57
oiaohmBetween any distribution.Apr 04 00:58
oiaohmLSB has made progress.Apr 04 00:58
oiaohmJust not as much as people like you are demarding DaemonFCApr 04 00:58
oiaohmYou are one of these people who want a complete city built from scratch in a day.Apr 04 00:58
oiaohmIts simply impossiable to do it that fast.Apr 04 00:58
DaemonFCnot reallyApr 04 00:59
oiaohmYou are.Apr 04 00:59
DaemonFCI want them to stop encouraging distros to implement bugsApr 04 00:59
DaemonFCto compensate for the test suiteApr 04 00:59
oiaohmDo you know how hard it is to build test suites.Apr 04 00:59
oiaohmIts not what you call a simple process.Apr 04 01:00
DaemonFCif you want the distros to be buggierApr 04 01:00
DaemonFCthen don't make the "standard"Apr 04 01:00
oiaohmIts very much like building a city.Apr 04 01:00
oiaohmSomethings will be wrong and will have to be fixed.Apr 04 01:00
_Hicham_1hahahaApr 04 01:00
oiaohmNot every test suit works right.Apr 04 01:00
_Hicham_1oiaohm is taking him seriouslyApr 04 01:00
_Hicham_1greatApr 04 01:00
DaemonFCLSB has done nothing meaningful except make money for The Open GroupApr 04 01:01
DaemonFCjust admit thatApr 04 01:01
oiaohmHas every html test suite every worked right.Apr 04 01:01
_Hicham_1great conversations by the wayApr 04 01:01
_Hicham_1:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:DApr 04 01:01
oiaohmProblem is LSB has done very useful things for me.Apr 04 01:01
oiaohmYou are head to head with a person who has built closed source applications on Linux.Apr 04 01:01
DaemonFCLinux distros are every bit as incompatible as beforeApr 04 01:01
oiaohmAnd used LSB to run them accross distributions.Apr 04 01:02
DaemonFConly now you have to pay racketeering scams to certify your bullshitApr 04 01:02
_Hicham_1oiaohm : u should do some data recovery inside his brain :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:DApr 04 01:02
oiaohmWine project is a good example of how the incompatibles have reduced.Apr 04 01:02
oiaohmThis days there is almost no distribution targeted code in it.Apr 04 01:02
DaemonFCif you need compatibility, there's one Apple, or one Microsoft, or one HP, or one SunApr 04 01:03
oiaohmIf binaries are built the right way they do run basically everywhere.Apr 04 01:03
DaemonFCLinux is not even compatible with itselfApr 04 01:03
DaemonFCbecause of the distribution clusterfuckApr 04 01:03
oiaohmWhat crap is that.Apr 04 01:03
MinceRgnApr 04 01:03
_Hicham_1:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:DApr 04 01:03
_Hicham_1:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:DApr 04 01:03
_Hicham_1:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:DApr 04 01:03
oiaohmStatic binaries on Linux have been compadible with Linux kernel after kernel.Apr 04 01:03
DaemonFCThere's also no compatibility guarantee with Linux between 3 month releasesApr 04 01:03
_Hicham_1:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:DApr 04 01:04
DaemonFCso an ABI that works one way in 2.6.29Apr 04 01:04
oiaohmBy the way Linux static binaries is the univerial binary for Unix.Apr 04 01:04
DaemonFCcould be fixed or removed by 2.6.30Apr 04 01:04
_Hicham_1:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:DApr 04 01:04
oiaohmUserspace ABI on Linux kernel don't change.Apr 04 01:04
DaemonFCthey might warn you to quit using itApr 04 01:04
oiaohmIt stays the same between all kernels.Apr 04 01:04
DaemonFCbut if you're using closed source stuffApr 04 01:04
DaemonFCthat doesn't help youApr 04 01:04
_Hicham_1:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:DApr 04 01:04
oiaohmThe compained about abi in the Linux kernel is the Driver ABI.Apr 04 01:04
amarsh04a syscall stays "forever"Apr 04 01:04
twitter"You are head to head with a person who has built closed source applications on Linux."  Thanks, but no thanks.  :-DApr 04 01:05
oiaohmYou have a big myth of incompadible on Linux DaemonFCApr 04 01:05
oiaohmLinux kernel allows every application to have there own dynamic loader if they wish.Apr 04 01:05
amarsh04drivers need to be provided as source for linux to allow the driver model to improve over timeApr 04 01:05
oiaohmIndependant to the distributions.Apr 04 01:05
oiaohmThere is no reason why a application has to get messed up with Distribution internal messes.Apr 04 01:05
oiaohmOther than the myth around Distributions.Apr 04 01:06
_Hicham_1hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhApr 04 01:06
oiaohmLSB tried at first working with Distributions.Apr 04 01:07
oiaohmThese days they are thowing in the towel and going the independant path of own embeded dynamic loader .  Basically a fuck you to distribution incompadibles.Apr 04 01:07
DaemonFCthat's what I mean, there's no such thing as Linux and compatibilityApr 04 01:08
DaemonFCyou have to statically link everythingApr 04 01:09
oiaohmNoApr 04 01:09
DaemonFCor else it won't work 3 months from nowApr 04 01:09
oiaohmYou can dynamic link.Apr 04 01:09
oiaohmJust include your own loader.Apr 04 01:09
oiaohmIts always been a option.Apr 04 01:09
oiaohmWith your own loader you can pick and choose what of your owns and what of the distributions you use.Apr 04 01:10
oiaohmBasically you can do exactly what windows does with dll in the applciation directory if you wish.Apr 04 01:11
oiaohmTo solve incompadibly problems.Apr 04 01:11
oiaohmIts a huge mother of a myth with no bases at all from a techical point of view this Linux incompadibly myth.Apr 04 01:11
schestowitzLots of apps get it rightApr 04 01:12
schestowitzPast the mythApr 04 01:12
schestowitzgoogleearth is one exampleApr 04 01:12
schestowitzFinished apps that are properly packaged can work universally.Apr 04 01:13
Balrog_schestowitz: Skype for iphone does weird thingsApr 04 01:15
Balrog_instead of acting like a regular app, it decrypts itself and replaces the binary with the decrypted one on loadApr 04 01:16
schestowitzBalrog: yes, I heard it's badApr 04 01:16
schestowitzIf you combined two negatives you won't get a positiveApr 04 01:17
Balrog_this is more of an anti-hacking thing than drmApr 04 01:17
Balrog_they don't want people reversing skype's protocolsApr 04 01:17
Balrog_apple's drm is very weak. Developers have been complaining.Apr 04 01:18
*schestowitz watches CMU talk.. 04 01:19
_Hicham_1"The Google Earth Plugin is currently only available on Windows and Mac OS X 10.4+." That shows how much Google is into LinuxApr 04 01:23
schestowitzYes, it likes using itApr 04 01:24
Balrog_schestowitz: which ODF plugin is preferred for Office 07?Apr 04 01:24
Balrog_then Sun one??Apr 04 01:24
amarsh04CMU has an Adelaide college: 04 01:25
oiaohmDaemonFC: main reason for Linux standard base needing to embed the dynamic loader into the executable is so installers work.  After application is installed dynamic loader can return to being a .so file.Apr 04 01:25
Balrog_CMU wrote this software,, that does a good thing but using very bad software building blocksApr 04 01:25
Balrog_Windows Media Player + Silverlight + .NET + PowerPointApr 04 01:26
_Hicham_1why not use plain VLC?Apr 04 01:28
Balrog_Because of multiple simultaneous streams.Apr 04 01:28
Balrog_(video streams)Apr 04 01:28
*amarsh04 notes that the photo used in CMU's web page for the Adelaide college shows that they want to portray a "long established" imageApr 04 01:29
oiaohmYou have not been to AdelaideApr 04 01:30
oiaohmIts a very old looking city in lots of places amarsh04Apr 04 01:30
_Hicham_1oiaohm : how old is Adelaide?Apr 04 01:34
*silentivm ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 04 01:34
amarsh04err... oiaohm, I live in AdelaideApr 04 01:34
oiaohmOk opps.Apr 04 01:34
amarsh04colony established Dec 28 1836, city area surveyed not long after thatApr 04 01:34
amarsh04a few buildings from around 1840 still existApr 04 01:35
oiaohmIts the style of the place amarsh04Apr 04 01:35
amarsh04town hall building was built around 1860Apr 04 01:35
amarsh04the new buildings have a tendency to be incredibly uglyApr 04 01:36
oiaohmBrisbane new building are mostly square blocks.Apr 04 01:36
oiaohmAt least adelaide they do go to the effort when I was down there of not makign them completely look like that.Apr 04 01:37
amarsh04true, some new buildings are alrightApr 04 01:37
oiaohmAdelaide to me has that more established fell.Apr 04 01:38
_Hicham_1 , from this pic it looks goodApr 04 01:38
oiaohmCompare to brisbane that fells like someone dump it together over night.Apr 04 01:38
oiaohmAnd is trying to make it work.Apr 04 01:38
*amarsh04 clicksApr 04 01:38
amarsh04that's a view from the southApr 04 01:40
oiaohmI guess living there all the time you don't notice its established like feel amarsh04Apr 04 01:41
schestowitzBalrog: yes, the Sun ODF pluginApr 04 01:42
Balrog_OK.Apr 04 01:42
Balrog_how do you discourage people from using Windows?Apr 04 01:42
Balrog_(at a school for example)Apr 04 01:42
oiaohmYou don'tApr 04 01:42
oiaohmYou instead get them using more and more programs that don't depend on windows.Apr 04 01:43
oiaohmUntil they start questioning why they are using windows.Apr 04 01:43
Balrog_they have MSDN-AAApr 04 01:44
schestowitzOr let them use VistaApr 04 01:44
amarsh04true oiaohmApr 04 01:44
amarsh04a few horror stories from windows users also help, and helpful application of linux-based data recovery toolsApr 04 01:45
_Hicham_1MSDN is hard to replaceApr 04 01:46
_Hicham_1maybe devhelpApr 04 01:46
Balrog_the IT people don't like dealing with windowsApr 04 01:47
_Hicham_1but there is no devhelp for WindowsApr 04 01:47
Balrog_(I'm working with them)Apr 04 01:47
amarsh04a free old machine running linux well that couldn't run windows well also helpsApr 04 01:47
Balrog_I suggested changing the default bootloader settingApr 04 01:47
_Hicham_1I like Anjuta, It is the Visual Studio of GnomeApr 04 01:47
Balrog_interesting.Apr 04 01:48
_Hicham_1Anjuta offers almost anything in Visual StudioApr 04 01:48
_Hicham_1Code Completion ( still in development )Apr 04 01:49
_Hicham_1WYSIWYG Editor Plugin ( glade )Apr 04 01:49
amarsh04at Flinders university I used jGrasp ( as a cross-platform Java (and other language) ideApr 04 01:49
_Hicham_1Powerful debugger ( with a valgrind plugin )Apr 04 01:49
_Hicham_1and most of all, it is compatible with old school autoconf and automakeApr 04 01:50
Balrog_well, I'll start testing it and bring it up to the IT people, and probably the facultyApr 04 01:53
Balrog_:)Apr 04 01:53
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection)Apr 04 01:53
schestowitz_Hicham_1: I love gladeApr 04 02:14
schestowitzAnyway, gotta get some sleepApr 04 02:14
_Hicham_1gn schestowitzApr 04 02:15
*Carl_Rover2k12 ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 04 02:44
*DaemonFC has quit ("Leaving")Apr 04 02:52
*DaemonFC ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 04 02:56
_Hicham_1DaemonFC : some new troll?Apr 04 03:04
DaemonFC 04 03:11
DaemonFCsureApr 04 03:11
*KDE4000 (n=KDE4000@unaffiliated/kde4000) has joined #boycottnovellApr 04 03:14
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovellApr 04 03:23
oiaohmI don't think MS has got it yet.  Open Source works in waves.Apr 04 03:27
oiaohmDefeat one wave and an another will come from a slightly different angle.Apr 04 03:27
oiaohmUntil they get it right.Apr 04 03:27
Carl_Rover2k12well M$ is not the only problem impeding open anything: 04 03:30
Carl_Rover2k12apparently AT&T Wireless loves to change their TOS as they go along in putting down any danger to their walled garden of redundant and overpriced servicesApr 04 03:31
*KDE4000 (n=KDE4000@unaffiliated/kde4000) has left #boycottnovell ("No matter how dark the night, somehow the Sun rises once again")Apr 04 03:35
*_Hicham_1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Apr 04 03:39
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@ has joined #boycottnovellApr 04 03:40
DaemonFCIf the contract says they can change the contract without informing youApr 04 03:40
DaemonFCyou've agreed to thatApr 04 03:40
DaemonFCread what you signApr 04 03:40
_Hicham_great pictureApr 04 03:41
_Hicham_at least u come with sthg funnyApr 04 03:41
_Hicham_r u a troller by nature?Apr 04 03:41
DaemonFCYOu're bitching about them being a businessApr 04 03:42
DaemonFCI'm sure the lamb wants to complain he got screwed by the wolfApr 04 03:42
DaemonFC:)Apr 04 03:42
_Hicham_do u like MS way of doing things?Apr 04 03:42
DaemonFCthey make money however the construct of the LEGAL system allowsApr 04 03:42
DaemonFCyou would do the same thingApr 04 03:42
_Hicham_how do u know?Apr 04 03:43
DaemonFCto make $50 billionApr 04 03:43
DaemonFCyou'd sell your own motherApr 04 03:43
_Hicham_simply I won'tApr 04 03:43
_Hicham_some things are more valuable than moneyApr 04 03:43
DaemonFCCorporate money paying programmers capitalist wages to produce Linux makes Linux workApr 04 03:44
DaemonFCso if you don't want to be "infected" by the product of capitalism, stop using LinuxaApr 04 03:45
DaemonFCand go use HURDApr 04 03:45
DaemonFCI won't stop youApr 04 03:45
_Hicham_Linux is not run by corporate moneyApr 04 03:45
_Hicham_Linux kernel is independantApr 04 03:45
DaemonFCyou are like those punk teenagers that listen to musicians singing fuck the systemApr 04 03:45
DaemonFCfor profitApr 04 03:45
DaemonFCto sell CDs and concert ticketsApr 04 03:45
_Hicham_no, it is not the sameApr 04 03:46
_Hicham_it is a matter of freedomApr 04 03:46
DaemonFCLinux might be independent in theoryApr 04 03:46
oiaohmLinux operates so it allows companies to use it to make a profit.Apr 04 03:46
DaemonFCbut it couldn't survive without corporationsApr 04 03:46
DaemonFCeven is a corporationApr 04 03:46
oiaohmIn return those companies develop for it.Apr 04 03:46
DaemonFCa non-profit maybeApr 04 03:46
DaemonFCbut they get salariesApr 04 03:46
oiaohmHURD does not really work.Apr 04 03:46
DaemonFCand that's really the same thingApr 04 03:46
_Hicham_it begun without corporationsApr 04 03:47
DaemonFCand it would still not workApr 04 03:47
_Hicham_HURD is another projectApr 04 03:47
DaemonFCif not for corporate effortApr 04 03:47
DaemonFCjust like HURDApr 04 03:47
oiaohmFreertos is another now getting comerical support.Apr 04 03:47
oiaohmHURD never has cross the threshold of using useful.Apr 04 03:47
DaemonFCthere's nothing wrong with someone paying a programmer to work on LinuxApr 04 03:47
oiaohmFreertos is one you most likely don't know about DaemonFCApr 04 03:47
DaemonFCit's their moneyApr 04 03:47
oiaohmIts used in the embeded world these days.Apr 04 03:47
oiaohmSince its now usable for items sold for profit its getting developers.Apr 04 03:48
oiaohmThat is how it works.Apr 04 03:48
oiaohmComperical support is a after thing.Apr 04 03:48
DaemonFCexactly, Linux is getting developed at the rate it is only because it's useful for companies who make money supporting itApr 04 03:48
DaemonFCso Linux is very much a product of capitalismApr 04 03:48
DaemonFCeven if that was not the original intentApr 04 03:49
oiaohmIts still true to its original intent.Apr 04 03:49
oiaohmProvide the needs of the people using it.Apr 04 03:49
oiaohmIf it happens to be commerical companies who decide to fund programmers so be it.Apr 04 03:49
DaemonFCto the extent that it is GPL 2 licensedApr 04 03:50
DaemonFCperhapsApr 04 03:50
oiaohmGPL licence is the difference between Freebsd and Linux.Apr 04 03:50
oiaohmBoth could have become great OS's from there base.Apr 04 03:50
oiaohmBSD does not require you to give back alterations.Apr 04 03:50
DaemonFCBSD was sued by USLApr 04 03:51
DaemonFCand that prevented it from getting tractionApr 04 03:51
DaemonFCLinux wasn't being sued, so companies went with thatApr 04 03:51
oiaohmSo has Linux been sued at different times.Apr 04 03:51
DaemonFCnot during the first yearsApr 04 03:51
DaemonFCwhen BSD was a real threatApr 04 03:51
oiaohmBSD major problem for traction is no requirement to give source code back.Apr 04 03:51
DaemonFCthe USL lawsuit is probably why we don't all use FreeBSD or something nowApr 04 03:51
oiaohmSo companies would take bsd make there own versions and that would be it.Apr 04 03:52
DaemonFCnoApr 04 03:52
oiaohmNo feed back.Apr 04 03:52
DaemonFCthere's no incentive for thatApr 04 03:52
DaemonFCwhy fork it when you now have to maintain it yourself?Apr 04 03:52
oiaohmWith Linux if you want to distribute you have to release source code.Apr 04 03:52
DaemonFCthe GPL is obsolete for that reasonApr 04 03:52
oiaohmAsk Novell then.Apr 04 03:52
oiaohmLarge sections of there core OS was based off BSD.Apr 04 03:52
oiaohmSame with a lot of other Unix clones.Apr 04 03:53
DaemonFCIf Linux was BSD licensed, Novell would not fork itApr 04 03:53
DaemonFCbecause they don't have the resources to sustain a forkApr 04 03:53
oiaohmIf Linux was BSD licence Novell would have.Apr 04 03:53
oiaohmJust like they did to BSD.Apr 04 03:53
oiaohmSorry that is the way it is.Apr 04 03:53
oiaohmMany companies have been caught forking Linux against licence.Apr 04 03:53
DaemonFCright, then I have to pay 100 times as many people to maintain itApr 04 03:53
DaemonFCwhen I could have jsut cooperatedApr 04 03:53
DaemonFCand gotten all of that for freeApr 04 03:53
oiaohmWith the idea of not having to give there alterations back for vendor lock in.Apr 04 03:54
oiaohmYou don't understand that problem.Apr 04 03:54
oiaohmIf you have the option between locking your customers in and not locking them in what path will you choose.Apr 04 03:54

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