Bonum Certa Men Certa

Combatting Revisionist History (Post From 2015, Years Before IBM Bought Red Hat and Increased Vendor Lock-in)

A day ago (Debian Developer from Japan):

Debian Developer from Japan on systemd

Keanu Approves/Disapproves IBM: They tell us they combat racism; But more people find out it's a PR stunt
Smokescreen that serves to distract from the very racist nature of IBM and its founder



Summary: Today we republish this forum post from more than 6 years ago; in light of what IBM did to CentOS and its vicious attack on the founder of the GNU/Linux operating system we must understand the systemd agenda, which the FSF can more openly speak about now that there are no financial strings

I'm something of a historian, I can't help but be troubled by the revisionist history I see unfolding in the aftermath of the recent controversy over systemd. So, from the “you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts” department, as a kind of parting gift to this community, I'd like to do what I can to marshal what I perceive to be the pertinent facts into a single bucket.

Disclaimer: For the benefit of those who may stumble on this post without any knowledge of my feelings on the matter, it's safe to call me the original systemd hater. In fact, it was my own headlong flight from systemd that originally led me to Debian in the first place. (And depending on your POV, that may constitute Yet Another Reason to hate systemd.) I make no claim nor pretense to "balance" or "fairness" regarding systemd any more than I would for, say, arsenic poisoning. My aim is to challenge and hopefully dispel certain memes that I see emerging from the systemd aftermath.

With that out of the way...

Systemd is not an init system
If someone characterizes systemd as an “init system,” you may safely assume that s/he is either utterly clueless or deliberately obfuscating the discussion. Calling systemd an init system is like calling an automobile a cup holder. Not even Lennart Poettering pretends that systemd is anything but the “Core OS” (sic).

What systemd is is an effort to re-create large portions of existing userspace (including login, job scheduling, and networking, just to name a few) inside a single process traditionally reserved for the sole purpose of starting *nix userspace. (Just in case it isn't clear, there is a huge difference between starting userspace (init) and being userspace (systemd).)

At the end of the day, how one perceives this re-creation of existing userspace strongly influences one's reaction to systemd. There are plenty of perfectly legitimate reasons to be troubled by this re-invention of the wheel; they range from the philosophical and aesthetic, to the technical and mechanical, even the purely political and brutally practical.

And that's part of the problem when folks start to “debate” systemd. Very few folks have the chops to think about, much less talk about all of these areas simultaneously. As a result, the discussion becomes fractured and disjointed, in what is literally the textbook definition of bikeshedding. Suddenly, a talking head who's never written a line of code in his/her life offers up an authoritative-sounding-but-utterly-bogus opinion on systemd's maintainability. Add in the fact that folks on both sides (including Poettering himself) act as if name-calling is a perfectly good substitute for empirical evidence, and the “debate” becomes indistinguishable from white noise.

Speaking of noise...


There was never a systemd debate
Debian came late to the systemd party. Systemd has been controversial since its inception in 2010. During the intervening four years, people have fled and even forked distros over systemd. By the time Debian's GR rolled around, anyone and everyone who was going to have a strong opinion about systemd already had it. Nobody was going to change their minds, thus there was no true “debate.”

We humans love to imagine that we are rational creatures, driven by logic and reason, capable of making reasoned, optimal decisions. Which is great except what we really are is short-sighted, pig-headed, and stupid. Psychology has a boatload of experiments that demonstrate that once you get to the choose-up-sides stage, then argument becomes dramatically less effective. (Google “confirmation bias” and “backfire effect” to learn more.)


The GR was not a mandate for systemd
I have no idea where systemd fanbois get the idea that a victory lap is appropriate.

The results of the GR vote were diluted and obfuscated by two non-resolution outcomes. Of the three technologically-relevant resolutions to the GR, one was unequivocally pro-systemd, the other two were contra-systemd, differing primarily in phrasing (essentially the difference between “must not” and “should not”).

(Aside: I confess to being a “must not” guy at heart, but I grudgingly admit that those who suggest that an absolute prohibition might prove unnecessarily inflexible or self-limiting might have a valid point. Maybe. But I don't have to like doing it.)

But here's the thing, and there is just no getting around it. Once you eliminate the ass-covering "no GR required" amendment, “systemd is a bad idea, the only real question is how bad” didn't place third.

It placed first. By a substantial margin.

Conversely, “systemd is a good idea” didn't place first.

It placed last.

If this surprises you, even a little, then by all means, go look it up. And for the love of whatever you hold Sacred, refrain from uttering a single word of GR-related drivel until you do.

(Edit: My exhortation above to refrain from drivel absent sufficient research was predictably futile. So, for the benefit of those who are unable or unwilling to do the math themselves, a pre-digested version of the analysis can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652&p=576562#p576502)


Speaking of the GR...


The GR was too necessary
As noted above, the only reason “systemd is a bad idea” wasn't the outcome of the GR vote is because of the “political cover” amendment that allowed “This conversation is superfluous” to pretend to be the correct answer (which it absolutely isn't).

In a dichotomous, up-or-down, yes-or-no vote (aka Option1 -vs- Option3), the Debian dev community is split 60/40 (or 40/60, depending on one's POV) on the issue of systemd. When a large plurality of your engineering team tells you that you're doing something fundamentally wrong, dismissing their concerns with “we don't need no steenkin' conversation” bespeaks a complacency bordering on negligence, all the moreso when when your actions have very, very large consequences. (Google “Challenger disaster” for more information.)

Which leads me to...


Debian isn't other distros
Every time I see someone spout some variation of the bandwagon fallacy, or refer to Arch as a “major” distro, I have an urge to do harm.

News flash: There is exactly one Debian, and nothing--nothing--compares to it.

NASA doesn't run Arch. Amazon and Google don't rely on Mageia.

In terms of sheer impact on both the larger LinuxSphere and the global economy, there are exactly two “major” distros: Debian and RedHat. (SUSE is a very distant third, and everything else is just noise.)

A change in Debian affects mission-critical and life-critical software across the globe, touches literally tens of thousands of organizations, and ripples through a hundred derivatives and spinoffs.

So no, it doesn't matter, not even a little, whether your desktop machine boots a few seconds faster or “seems to work ok” under systemd. The cost of downtime on a hobbyist machine is all-but-unmeasurable, whereas the cost of downtime on a scientific supercomputer is somewhere between large and catastrophic.

Speaking of costs...


Change costs, and big change costs big
There's a reason why sysadmins in large organizations are routinely among systemd's biggest detractors.

Downtime is expensive in terms of both time and money. So is re-training. So is rewriting gigabytes of artificially-obsoleted documentation. Add them all up, factor in the associated opportunity costs, multiply by a planet's worth of installs, and before you know it, the cost to the global economy associated with systemd deployment reaches into the billions (or thousands of millions, if you prefer) of dollars/euros.

And for what exactly?

Even if systemd were a demonstrably superior technology (which it isn't), adequately spec'ed (which it isn't) elegantly designed (which it isn't), well-coded (which it isn't), properly documented (which it isn't),or developed by a responsive and responsible community with a history of delivering robust and reliable software (*cough*pulseaudio*cough*), systemd would still be at best problematic, for one simple reason: it's insanely expensive to implement, particularly given the fact that it doesn't solve any actual problem.

Insofar as I'm aware, no one has ever articulated a value proposition for systemd that addresses its implementation costs, or comes remotely close to calculating a payback period. More to the point, no one has successfully articulated any value proposition for systemd that goes beyond “it's better” or “it's more modern.”

Global warming, antibiotic resistant bacteria, oilspills, and nuclear accidents are all “modern,” but that doesn't make them good. And “better” is a meaningless term until and unless one specifies a metric or quantitative criteria that can be used to measure “better” in a systematic and reliable way. Otherwise, “new and improved!” is just marketing hype.

At the end of the day, the crux of the systemd question comes down to a matter of how much Unix one wants in one's Linux. Casual users and hobbyists probably won't care. Professionals will care deeply and passionately.

Recent Techrights' Posts

Social Control Media as a Rapid Race to the Bottom - Part III - Foreign Interference and Chaff/Flare
Why would you trust alleged 'communication' (platforms) controlled by the same people who cut your undersea cables?
[Video] Richard Stallman Explains What Intelligence in Computing Really Means and How Old That Is (Story About 1975, 50 Years Ago)
Uploaded 11 hours ago by Manuel Cuda News
Links 05/03/2025: Prioritising Science, Patents Squashed
Links for the day
New Short Clip of Richard Stallman's Thoughts on the "Hey Hi" (AI) Hype, Courtesy of Manuel Cuda News
about 6 hrs ago
What Microsoft and GitHub Really, Really, REALLY Do Not Want You to See or Know About
They're trying to misuse law in a completely different continent or to allege that reporting important facts is in breach of privacy law
Slopwatch: linuxsecurity.com and Other 'Linux' Sites With LLM Slop
SEO spam with machine-generated fodder, plus a person to whom English isn't a first language
 
Links 06/03/2025: Trade Wars, Trademarks, Attacks on (and by) the Media, Digg to Relaunch
Links for the day
The Fall of the Open Source Initiative (OSI): The Problems Are Much Bigger Than the Rigged Elections
It's not only about elections
Dr. Andy Farnell on Brutality and (or of) Brute-Force Computing
"Understandably, the ecological cost of compute was never really on the minds of pure computer scientists"
IBM Absorbs More of Red Hat and There Are Several Layoff Rumours
Those are just rumours for now
Gemini Links 06/03/2025: Digg, Project Failure, and More
Links for the day
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Wednesday, March 05, 2025
IRC logs for Wednesday, March 05, 2025
Gemini Links 05/03/2025: News Processing, Misbehaving, and Git
Links for the day
GNU/Linux Cracking Past the 4% Barrier in Hungary
There are still quite a few very famous developers and Free software projects from Hungary
Meanwhile in the Matrix Room #dei:fedoraproject.org
Remember that IBM does a lot of perception manipulation
Rumour About Red Hat Layoffs Yesterday
Can somebody from Red Hat or someone who knows someone there (impacted or not) confirm that there are layoffs this week at Red Hat?
What is fixated behavior? Stalker or just a fan of Emma Raducanu?
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
In Iran, GNU/Linux Reaches New Highs, According to statCounter
Does that make sense? In light of geopolitics? Probably.
Always Safety First
We have some reasons to suspect that one of several parties (possibly not in the UK but having connections here), having suffered major and very expensive setbacks, may look to harm the messenger one way or another
Links 05/03/2025: Starbucks Debt Soars and CFO Changed, Apple Pretends to Value Privacy, "Cloudflare Blocking Privacy Focused Users From Accessing Third-Party Websites"
Links for the day
Canonical's Latest Love Letter to Microsoft (Ubuntu Promoting Proprietary Spyware With Back Doors)
Typical Canonical, promoting Microsoft (and sometimes Windows) instead of competing against them
GNU/Linux Climbs to Record Levels in Switzerland. Can the EU, Norway, the UK, and Switzerland Divorce GAFAM?
Germany openly speaks about becoming independent from the US. How about Switzerland?
Gemini Links 05/03/2025: Living in Interesting Times, Font, and Social Control Media with Gos v1.0.0
Links for the day
Just Because Common Currencies (Including the US Dollar) Are Considered Uncertain Doesn't Mean People Should Adopt Volatile Multi-Level (Pyramid) Schemes
the scammers are trying to "go mainstream"
Use RSS Readers Instead of Social Control Media
RSS readers were designed to save time. Social Control Media was designed to waste time.
The 'Windows Era' Already Came to an End
Microsoft said to shareholders everything would be alright because of "clown computing" and then "hey hi"
The Fall of the Open Source Initiative (OSI): Microsoft Committing the Largest GPL Violation in Human History, Then OSI Covering That Up on Microsoft's Payroll
LLMs don't make GPL violations any more noble or acceptable; it's not hard to see what OSI was paid by Microsoft for
Social Control Media as a Rapid Race to the Bottom - Part II - Think Before You Talk
The 'socmed' nonsense does not exist in our home
Links 04/03/2025: Hardware, Health, Data Breaches, Politics
Links for the day
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, March 04, 2025
IRC logs for Tuesday, March 04, 2025
Luxembourg: GNU/Linux at 8% Based on Estimates
steady increases this year
Gemini Links 04/03/2025: Bicycle, Photos, and Motorola 6809 Assemblers
Links for the day
Crossbow tragedy, bigger than Kyle Clifford, social media culture
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Microsoft OSI Apparently Still Reading Techrights Closely, Trying to Make Face-Saving PR Moves
They have long had this reactionary rhythm, wherein it feels like we can 'control' what they publish and when by merely highlighting facts about them
Links 04/03/2025: Microsoft/Korea Game Industry Association Workforce Cuts, Outlook and 365 Outage Affects Very Many
Links for the day
Transcript of Richard Stallman's Interview With Manuel Cuda News in Italy (Debunking Fake "AI")
A rough draft, but checked by two people
Chad: All-Time Lows for Windows, According to statCounter
According to statCounter, many in Chad moved to Android
Links 04/03/2025: Universities Are Under Attack, Windows Attracts Ransom Against Ministry of Health
Links for the day
Microsoft Collapses While GNU/Linux Rises in Bulgaria, According to statCounter
Microsoft is losing across all sectors
The Fall of the Open Source Initiative (OSI): An Introduction
In a nutshell: there's a massive conflict inside the OSI and the OSI stooges (staff serving Big Sponsors like Microsoft) try to hide it
Paraguay: GNU/Linux Surging to New Usage Levels (7%), According to statCounter
Notice that the gains are at Microsoft Windows' expense
Social Control Media as a Rapid Race to the Bottom - Part I - That Sinking Feeling
When you realise you made an error and things you adopted more than 15 years ago became utterly bad
Microsoft's Entryism as Mortal Risk/Danger: The Example of the Open Source Initiative (OSI)
Microsoft is a cult
Links 04/03/2025: Microsoft Issues Policy Instructions to the Cheeto Mussolini Administration, Cloudflare Engages in Mass Censorship Again
Links for the day
Gemini Links 04/03/2025: Athens, Fedora 41, and Yelling at Clouds
Links for the day
FSF Amicus Brief: Aspose.PDF for .NET 24.2.0, OOXML (.docx), and Microsoft Word (Proprietary)
Could the FSF not find any law firm that, in addition to talking about or for Free software, does not use .NET, OOXML, and almost everything Microsoft?
New Interview With Richard Stallman in Italy (Manuel Cuda News)
Due to Google's growing aggression against Free software and proper APIs, this cannot be downloaded and converted to a free format
The Free Software Foundation (FSF) Belatedly Comments on Case That Tests Copyleft in the United States
"The Free Software Foundation (FSF) announced today it has submitted an amicus brief in the case entitled Neo4j"
If They Try to Censor You on Some Topic, Then You Should Cover This Topic Even More
OSI is only a small part of it
The UEFI hype and Microsoft's lies
By Sami Tikkanen
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Monday, March 03, 2025
IRC logs for Monday, March 03, 2025
Thorsten Glaser & Open Source Initiative (OSI) resignations due to AI whitewashing
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock