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| -dmwaters-{global notice} Good day all, I need to do a bunch of rerouting to prep for an outage tomorrow. If all goes well, this should not take long. Any further messages about this will be given in wallops, '/mode your_nick w' to see them. Thank you for your patience, and thank you for using freenode! | Jun 25 02:13 |
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| schestowitz | http://aseigo.blogspot.com/ ("This blog is open to invited readers only"). Very weird. If it's not a glitch, then maybe he tries to end the trolling. | Jun 25 05:46 |
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| schestowitz | Hi, blackrabbit | Jun 25 09:26 |
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| blackrabbit | hi schestowitz | Jun 25 09:27 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, I have been following your work for several years now, bravo. | Jun 25 09:27 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, what a shame Digg has turned into such a waste dump, your performances there were always admirable. | Jun 25 09:29 |
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| schestowitz | Really? Thanks for that. Yes, Digg as a whole (not just me or Free software) has changed. It's not about technology anymore and it's filled with corporate types. | Jun 25 09:31 |
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| schestowitz | Watch how Ars Technica games that site (based on what I can tell). It's like an advertising turf and those who game it fight the admins like the security vendors fight cybercriminals. | Jun 25 09:31 |
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| blackrabbit | I enjoy the log file posts here, have you had any visits from munchkins? | Jun 25 09:33 |
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| PetoKraus | hehe | Jun 25 09:33 |
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| PetoKraus | there's been some | Jun 25 09:33 |
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| blackrabbit | as you are so keen to call them :D | Jun 25 09:33 |
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| blackrabbit | heh | Jun 25 09:33 |
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| PetoKraus | we had a visit by OpenSuse Opposition Neutralisation Force | Jun 25 09:33 |
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| blackrabbit | oh? | Jun 25 09:34 |
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| blackrabbit | I would like a Ballmer egg toss flash game | Jun 25 09:35 |
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| blackrabbit | every round begins with, "hey you!" | Jun 25 09:35 |
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| PetoKraus | hmm | Jun 25 09:35 |
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| PetoKraus | ^^ | Jun 25 09:35 |
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| blackrabbit | That video is priceless | Jun 25 09:35 |
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| PetoKraus | at this point you should ask "wait, don't tell me there is one already' | Jun 25 09:35 |
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| blackrabbit | :D | Jun 25 09:36 |
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| blackrabbit | is there? | Jun 25 09:36 |
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| PetoKraus | http://nagyorgy.uw.hu/ | Jun 25 09:36 |
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| blackrabbit | probably not well done | Jun 25 09:36 |
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| PetoKraus | on the bottom | Jun 25 09:36 |
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| blackrabbit | that url is creepy... nagy orgy? | Jun 25 09:36 |
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| PetoKraus | nagy is very common hungarian name | Jun 25 09:36 |
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| blackrabbit | oh | Jun 25 09:37 |
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| PetoKraus | meaning "small" | Jun 25 09:37 |
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| blackrabbit | Did any major media stations pick up on that egg story? | Jun 25 09:37 |
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| blackrabbit | It seems most ignored it | Jun 25 09:37 |
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| schestowitz | <blackrabbit>: Scott Nudds/Douglas ('Ezekiel') may have been here, if Homer's judgment is something to go by. it's hard to tell. They used Tor. | Jun 25 09:38 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, I didn't say that | Jun 25 09:39 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, oh, I see, does your client use theses around names of people you speak to? <>'s | Jun 25 09:40 |
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| blackrabbit | these* | Jun 25 09:40 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, we would all do well to use tor :D | Jun 25 09:40 |
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| blackrabbit | I can't say I'm surprised by the China Olympics Silverfish push | Jun 25 09:42 |
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| blackrabbit | After all, the LOC $$Silverfish wasn't too far off in memory | Jun 25 09:42 |
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| schestowitz | <blackrabbit>, no but I highlight names for copy and paste (less room for typos that eliminate alerts) and those brackets are included. | Jun 25 09:43 |
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| schestowitz | I use XChat. | Jun 25 09:43 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, oh, it appears to me as if you were quoting me when you used my name in a response in quotes! :D | Jun 25 09:44 |
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| schestowitz | China and the olypics are all up for sale. It's biz | Jun 25 09:44 |
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| PetoKraus | tab completion? | Jun 25 09:44 |
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| schestowitz | I had a chat about this at the gym the other day. Sports is all ruins because all those athletes are on drugs. It's like everyone there is cheating and those that play dirty win. | Jun 25 09:44 |
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| schestowitz | Same in business, mind you, where those like Microsoft who break the rules reap the prizes. | Jun 25 09:45 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, it's biz, but I'm surprised the silverfish tail is squirming so quickly to try and edge into the mainstream and swallow Flash | Jun 25 09:45 |
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| schestowitz | <PetoKraus>, I saw that option, but haven't used it yet. I'm back to IRC after more than 10 years, so I'm a mIRC kiddo going by memory. | Jun 25 09:46 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, type bla and press tab | Jun 25 09:46 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft would do whatever it takes to grab media too. Software becomes a commodity, so Apple scares them (oh, and Sony). | Jun 25 09:46 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, you're not on windows, are you? :P | Jun 25 09:47 |
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| schestowitz | New: http://blog.seattlepi.nwsour... (old E-mail, leaked) | Jun 25 09:47 |
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| schestowitz | No, I'm not. That was ages ago. I was about 14. | Jun 25 09:47 |
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| blackrabbit | ha | Jun 25 09:48 |
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| schestowitz | I was young and naive. I thought PC=Windows. Well, it does /come/ with it, doesn't it? | Jun 25 09:49 |
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| PetoKraus | schestowitz: just type start of any nick | Jun 25 09:49 |
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| PetoKraus | like "sch" | Jun 25 09:49 |
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| PetoKraus | and hit tab ;) | Jun 25 09:50 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, I am not judging you, I was curious about your current OS usage. :D | Jun 25 09:50 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, I believe most of us were exposed to Windows some time or another. | Jun 25 09:50 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, like a 500 lb. flasher with a mole on his cheeks | Jun 25 09:51 |
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| schestowitz | Thanks, PetoKraus . | Jun 25 09:52 |
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| schestowitz | I started with DOS, but I can't recall which version. DOS6 floppies I probably still have lying somewhere, but it came later. | Jun 25 09:53 |
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| schestowitz | My mom used Lotus 1-2-3 | Jun 25 09:53 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, DOS? You newb! :D | Jun 25 09:53 |
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| schestowitz | Well... what else was there. I saw a few Macs on rare occasions. They were advanced but expensive. Nobody almost seemed to used them. | Jun 25 09:54 |
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| schestowitz | My first experience with Novell was distant... in the school's network that was run by Novell servers. | Jun 25 09:55 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, depends on the time you began, what was there there was a lot of hardware/software depending on your interest actually | Jun 25 09:58 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, but not everyone is the type to dust off old hardware and try it | Jun 25 09:59 |
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| schestowitz | I was never connected to the Internet until I got a Winmodem (3.11). | Jun 25 10:00 |
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| Eruaran | Hi guys | Jun 25 10:03 |
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| PetoKraus | 'llo | Jun 25 10:03 |
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| Eruaran | Want to see a British MP giving folks from the BBC a hard time over Microsoft and interoperability ? | Jun 25 10:04 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, for shame | Jun 25 10:04 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, you should advertise these to M$ shills coming here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004TFLB/re... | Jun 25 10:04 |
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| Eruaran | Feast your eyes on this little bit of entertainment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sfQk9NXlns | Jun 25 10:05 |
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| schestowitz | Hey, <Eruaran> | Jun 25 10:05 |
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| Eruaran | hi roy | Jun 25 10:05 |
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| schestowitz | I wrote this earlier: | Jun 25 10:05 |
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| schestowitz | <schestowitz> http://aseigo.blogspot.com/ ("This blog is open to invited readers only"). Very weird. If it's not a glitch, then maybe he tries to end the trolling. | Jun 25 10:05 |
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| Eruaran | The link to the youtube clip I just posted, did you post it already on BN at some stage ? I have a vague memory that you may have... | Jun 25 10:06 |
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| PetoKraus | i am dling the video right now | Jun 25 10:06 |
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| schestowitz | blackrabbit, seen that Amazon link. Maybe that's how Microsoft reward them. It actually coined the word, I believe. | Jun 25 10:07 |
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| schestowitz | Eruaran, I never saw this one before, but it's [H]omer who uploaded it. | Jun 25 10:09 |
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| Eruaran | I'm locked out of Aarons blog :( | Jun 25 10:09 |
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| schestowitz | You know what I'm gonna do? I'll just make an Ogg out of it and post it to BN.com. | Jun 25 10:10 |
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| Eruaran | cool | Jun 25 10:12 |
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| Eruaran | Its a great clip | Jun 25 10:12 |
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| blackrabbit | lol | Jun 25 10:13 |
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| schestowitz | I'm surprised I never saw it before. I saw photos though. | Jun 25 10:13 |
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| schestowitz | I'll use the headline "Why BBC is Microsoft Media (Video)" | Jun 25 10:14 |
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| schestowitz | (transcoding video at the moment). I'll post the good news about ODF in the mean time. | Jun 25 10:18 |
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| PetoKraus | the video is nice | Jun 25 10:27 |
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| blackrabbit | Amazing... absolutely amazing... find a program on microsoft.com? you must validate before you download! What type of horse shit is that? | Jun 25 10:28 |
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| blackrabbit | I'm honestly surprised they haven't adopted a silverfish compression method | Jun 25 10:28 |
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| blackrabbit | IExplore.svf | Jun 25 10:29 |
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| PetoKraus | xD | Jun 25 10:29 |
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| blackrabbit | Sorry! You must open this archive with Microsoft Silverfish Extractor! | Jun 25 10:29 |
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| blackrabbit | aka M$ tunacan | Jun 25 10:29 |
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| Eruaran | Aparrently BBC's iPlayer for the Mac is crippled. | Jun 25 10:30 |
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| PetoKraus | and can you download for linux | Jun 25 10:31 |
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| PetoKraus | ? | Jun 25 10:31 |
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| PetoKraus | :) | Jun 25 10:31 |
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| Eruaran | Nope. | Jun 25 10:32 |
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| PetoKraus | that's lie! the nice guy in the video said you can! | Jun 25 10:32 |
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| PetoKraus | :P | Jun 25 10:32 |
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| Eruaran | I was surprised that he so blatantly lied like that | Jun 25 10:32 |
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| Eruaran | I mean, seriously, what kind of dimwittedness is that ? | Jun 25 10:33 |
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| schestowitz | blackrabbit, BBC DID consider Silverblight [sic] at one stage | Jun 25 10:33 |
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| Eruaran | If I was that MP, at that point I'd Just say, "get out, you're an idiot" | Jun 25 10:33 |
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| schestowitz | I blasted them at COLA over it and I think other did as well, so they ran away to Flash. | Jun 25 10:33 |
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| Eruaran | If he's lying, he's an idiot. If he's just ignorant, he's an idiot. | Jun 25 10:34 |
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| schestowitz | Did you see the comment on that last BBC post in BN? Some guy, apparently from the BBC, said the engineers want to 'kill' those managers. | Jun 25 10:35 |
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| Eruaran | didn't see that | Jun 25 10:35 |
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| schestowitz | I can imagine it's a battle between the 'Microsoft reps/agents' and those who know their way around. | Jun 25 10:35 |
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| schestowitz | OK, Ogg complete! On to posting. | Jun 25 10:35 |
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| Eruaran | :D | Jun 25 10:35 |
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| Eruaran | Make sure you spellcheck ;) | Jun 25 10:35 |
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| schestowitz | I'll append reference that I strongly urge you to read. Especially '10 questions BBC cannot answer' | Jun 25 10:36 |
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| Eruaran | righto | Jun 25 10:36 |
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| schestowitz | The BBC managers posted comments in BN trying to defend themselves. | Jun 25 10:36 |
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| schestowitz | The BBC blog also linked to us a few time to confess people /are/ aware of the issues. | Jun 25 10:36 |
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| schestowitz | Eruaran, do I have /that/ many typos? I just won\t write much this time. | Jun 25 10:37 |
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| Eruaran | can u give me the link | Jun 25 10:37 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, you're joking | Jun 25 10:37 |
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| schestowitz | I have the ID, hold on. | Jun 25 10:37 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, I enjoy the various images you guys have up on your site btw | Jun 25 10:37 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, some classic stuff there made me lol quite a few times :D | Jun 25 10:38 |
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| Eruaran | oh yes indeed | Jun 25 10:38 |
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| Eruaran | so you come for teh lulz | Jun 25 10:39 |
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| Eruaran | :) | Jun 25 10:39 |
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| blackrabbit | ha | Jun 25 10:39 |
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| blackrabbit | no I come as a member of the hidden army | Jun 25 10:39 |
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| blackrabbit | the nazgul penguins | Jun 25 10:40 |
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| Eruaran | ooh nazgul eh | Jun 25 10:40 |
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| Eruaran | nice | Jun 25 10:41 |
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| blackrabbit | yup | Jun 25 10:41 |
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| blackrabbit | Eruaran, hobbit penguins sound too gluttonous | Jun 25 10:41 |
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| Eruaran | But Frodo destroy's the ring ! | Jun 25 10:41 |
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| schestowitz | <Eruaran>, maybe we should do some Novell LOLcatz? | Jun 25 10:42 |
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| Eruaran | heh yeah | Jun 25 10:42 |
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| blackrabbit | Eruaran, no, smeagol did in his folly | Jun 25 10:42 |
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| schestowitz | It could repel some readers though. | Jun 25 10:42 |
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| Eruaran | oh... technicalities | Jun 25 10:42 |
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| Eruaran | I guess it might | Jun 25 10:42 |
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| blackrabbit | I would like to see more news media pick up on Microsoft's real history of actions | Jun 25 10:43 |
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| schestowitz | The video is quite fat (22MB despite low-res) | Jun 25 10:43 |
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| Eruaran | blackrabbit: yes, they wear blinders | Jun 25 10:44 |
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| schestowitz | Okay, it's at the front page now. Let me know about broken links (if any) | Jun 25 10:44 |
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| blackrabbit | When I direct people to boycottnovell's website, they are shocked to discover a site with actual OGG videos! | Jun 25 10:49 |
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| Eruaran | heh | Jun 25 10:51 |
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| PetoKraus | grilled? | Jun 25 10:52 |
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| PetoKraus | :) | Jun 25 10:52 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, but not BBQ. | Jun 25 10:54 |
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| blackrabbit | ? | Jun 25 10:57 |
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| blackrabbit | someone cooking? | Jun 25 10:57 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, John Pugh. He cooking a Thompson. | Jun 25 10:59 |
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| schestowitz | *He's | Jun 25 10:59 |
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| PetoKraus | that um ah ah em ah um part is hilarious | Jun 25 11:03 |
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| PetoKraus | i mean | Jun 25 11:05 |
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| PetoKraus | why don't they just make Theora-encoded videos available? That's cheaper... and interoperable | Jun 25 11:06 |
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| PetoKraus | :D | Jun 25 11:06 |
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| schestowitz | They have DIRAC, too. | Jun 25 11:14 |
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| blackrabbit | dirac already sounds extinct | Jun 25 11:14 |
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| schestowitz | The BBC operated like a business now. It's driven by partners, not those who are the source of revenue. | Jun 25 11:15 |
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| schestowitz | blackrabbit, they made a mention of it recently, as though it's reborn of pulled off the shelf again. | Jun 25 11:15 |
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| blackrabbit | I hope it takes off | Jun 25 11:15 |
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| Eruaran | I'm helping a noob reset his x config so his monitor refreshes properly | Jun 25 11:18 |
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| Eruaran | Memories of 2005 for me :P | Jun 25 11:18 |
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| PetoKraus | :) | Jun 25 11:20 |
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| Eruaran | He's a happy chappy now | Jun 25 11:21 |
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| schestowitz | blackrabbit, that 'Tim Smith' stalker is going all mad in Digg again. Personal attacks and abuse. Maybe I should report him. | Jun 25 11:42 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, you had a stalker? | Jun 25 11:43 |
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| schestowitz | There are 4 of them in Digg who came from COLA to harass me at Digg with Slander and insults. 'Tim' is one of them and he goes ballistic again. | Jun 25 11:44 |
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| schestowitz | They make false accusations hoping to have me banned. | Jun 25 11:44 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, are they microsoft henchmen? | Jun 25 11:45 |
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| schestowitz | Not sure if all them are but a professor who has watched this for a while reckon some are Microsoft partners at the very least. None of this is new. They also tried to get me into trouble with existing employers using libel. | Jun 25 11:46 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, go through proper legal channels if they are issuing libel/slander | Jun 25 11:47 |
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| schestowitz | It's a waste of time. They also hide themselves behind proxies. | Jun 25 11:47 |
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| blackrabbit | I suppose every great mind pushing for freedom experiences such trolls | Jun 25 11:49 |
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| blackrabbit | I recall observing many bickering with you on Digg | Jun 25 11:49 |
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| blackrabbit | eventually people started to digg your posts down, I suspect these were gangstalkers | Jun 25 11:50 |
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| blackrabbit | when Digg first started I followed the Linux activity there, but once they opened the pool up to other topics, it was polluted | Jun 25 11:50 |
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| schestowitz | 4 people (at least 3 from COLA) dugg down every single comment of mine. | Jun 25 11:50 |
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| schestowitz | Here's a sample. Sit back as I go through memories. | Jun 25 11:51 |
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| schestowitz | (because I hardly participate in Digg these days) | Jun 25 11:51 |
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| schestowitz | In short: Digg.com Has Become Microsoft's Nuthouse and Own (Astro) Turf... but other companies ain't much better. | Jun 25 11:51 |
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| schestowitz | [Note: this is a ramble and a rant, so do not expect a very consistent flow of arguments.] | Jun 25 11:52 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, please, don't bother, I read a number of them and I'd rather stay in a positive mood, but thanks | Jun 25 11:52 |
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| blackrabbit | you always bested them in replies, anyway | Jun 25 11:52 |
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| schestowitz | I hardly replied. Let me put this on the record anyway. | Jun 25 11:53 |
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| blackrabbit | ok | Jun 25 11:53 |
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| schestowitz | Digg is considered popular, but if you have never been involved or registered with Digg before, don't bother. I'm not alone. The site's quality has degraded in the most terrible of ways and it's surprising that it still manages to maintain some level of status. In the past I sent out the following E-mail to Digg (consider this an open letter now). | Jun 25 11:53 |
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| schestowitz | By the way, blackrabbit, PJ told me I need to express and share such stuff publicly for future reference, so here I go. | Jun 25 11:53 |
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| schestowitz | Here is an old E-mail: "Dear Digg, I kindly ask that you check the profile/history of the following users: *flatfish (recently banned from Propeller by the way and had 4 accounts terminated in Digg) *harlowmonkeys *kretik. These people do nothing in Digg but stalking and harassing me. They spread lies about me to. Digg has become highly chaotic and people are turned off by such abusive and compulsive characters." | Jun 25 11:54 |
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| schestowitz | This is based on observations made by peers too, not just myself. It was getting out of hand. | Jun 25 11:54 |
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| schestowitz | As I told you earlier, there are 3 or 4 people at the moment who mod all my comments down systematically (and bury my submissions too, I suspect, burial isn't visible). | Jun 25 11:55 |
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| schestowitz | They are not Diggers. They don't submit. | Jun 25 11:55 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, whenever I visited digg towards the last I saw auto 20-40 digg downs for your posts without many replies | Jun 25 11:55 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, that smelled like a pay off gangstalker group to me | Jun 25 11:55 |
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| blackrabbit | but that's my opinion | Jun 25 11:55 |
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| schestowitz | They came after me from other forums like COLA (Tim Smith, Flatfish and 'Hardron', I think) where they even _admitted doing this_. | Jun 25 11:56 |
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| blackrabbit | it's such bullshit, as people who care and are bright take the time to post and it's almost, well it is censorship, the whole system of such moderation, imo, is broken | Jun 25 11:56 |
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| blackrabbit | what is COLA? | Jun 25 11:56 |
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| schestowitz | So.... I have complained to Digg about this. One of them has already had 3 or 4 accounts terminated, but he keeps creating new ones. It's Gary M Stewart. He came chasing me in other sites too... he buried everything I did and it's visible there by USERNAME (username flatfish, quickly banned) | Jun 25 11:57 |
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| schestowitz | COLA is comp.os.linux.advocacy | Jun 25 11:57 |
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| blackrabbit | oh, newsgroups | Jun 25 11:58 |
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| schestowitz | Some of the account were variations of my name with my avatar stolen | Jun 25 11:58 |
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| blackrabbit | people still use those? | Jun 25 11:58 |
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| blackrabbit | I thought newsgroups were all spam | Jun 25 11:58 |
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| schestowitz | he posted under me name with E=#, S=5 type variation, pretending that I was gay or something. | Jun 25 11:58 |
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| blackrabbit | public ones, at least | Jun 25 11:58 |
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| schestowitz | Some people thought it was my account because he used the same image and a similar nick. | Jun 25 11:58 |
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| schestowitz | So there comes the point where people lose respect based on libel. | Jun 25 11:59 |
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| schestowitz | IOW, they poison people against their target. | Jun 25 11:59 |
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| blackrabbit | why participate in such mediums if you face such onslaught? | Jun 25 11:59 |
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| schestowitz | It's messy, which is I decided to sort of leave Digg. But they'll get their way if I do, right? Due to their slander, some people think I'm a troll, but need to look elsewhere for evidence, preferably in moderated forums that cannot be abused and gamed. | Jun 25 11:59 |
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| schestowitz | Well, that's why I stopped, blackrabbit If I submit stories, it's harder to attack me, but Tim Smith does it all the time right now, which is why I brought this up. | Jun 25 12:00 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, ever consider running a tor hidden service forum? | Jun 25 12:00 |
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| schestowitz | There was a new time of libellous accusation being spread about me at some stafe. They say that I am getting paid to object to the Microsoft/Novell deal. You know, kind of like the lies "PJ gets paid by IBM to write about SCO" or "PJ doesn't exist". These are lies that various try to use to shoot the messenger and create legal risk. | Jun 25 12:00 |
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| blackrabbit | I don't care either way if you're paid or not, you're on the mark. | Jun 25 12:01 |
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| schestowitz | In general, you are encouraged not to listen to whatever arbitrary Diggers say because some of them are affiliated with companies and I haven't the capacity to squash the lies, let alone keep track of them. Some people still submit 'stories' like 'boycott boycott novell' or 'open letter to roy schestowitz' | Jun 25 12:01 |
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| schestowitz | No, I don't get paid. PJ told me she can hardly get rent paid, but she loves what she does. | Jun 25 12:02 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, I haven't read Digg in a long, long time. | Jun 25 12:02 |
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| schestowitz | Bear this in mind: In the past year, Microsoft has been reguarly ____caught____ paying people to spit out such anti-Linux messages. In case you have not realised, they are also in Digg and the UNIX/Linux section is unsurprisingly losing attraction. Some people stalk and others patrol and complete their round where they mod all my comments down and maybe burying submissions. | Jun 25 12:02 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, yes, many in free open source software work their beliefs rather than selling out | Jun 25 12:02 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft has been (still does) employing people to do what they call 'marketing' or 'evangelism' (nice words for "astroturfing) at Digg in attempt to defeat honest voices. This includes personal attack and slander. About the latter I have no proof, but Microsoft employees (evangelists) leave comments in ZDNET. They were caught. | Jun 25 12:03 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, I have no doubt certain corporations with deep pockets may afford the luxury of paying people to spread dissent, this is corporate policy on the high rungs | Jun 25 12:03 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, now I'm not naming any particular company as I don't like lawsuits, but.. :D | Jun 25 12:03 |
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| schestowitz | Do all the lies affect the minds of peers? Well, lies that has been spread about me in Digg have not helped. Some suspicious characters have been in Digg for well over a year usually defending Microsoft and that drive away people who considered them shills. | Jun 25 12:04 |
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| schestowitz | I went to see a lawyer 2 years ago | Jun 25 12:04 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, as in the days of OS/2 | Jun 25 12:04 |
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| schestowitz | I agree with you, it's pointless but needed just in case. PJ said I should. | Jun 25 12:04 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, OS/2 wasn't the end of it. | Jun 25 12:04 |
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| schestowitz | There are also shills posting in GL. They get banned if interrogated successfully. | Jun 25 12:05 |
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| schestowitz | See http://boycottnovell.com/2007/11/... | Jun 25 12:05 |
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| schestowitz | Digg seems to be another lost case where a community site loses control to corporations. Once in a while (although it's rare) people will add a disclaimer to say that they work for the company cited. It's rare. Either way, Digg has become like a battleground for companies and it can no longer be trusted. Just see examples of Microsoft astroturfing from the past year. Time to wake up. | Jun 25 12:05 |
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| blackrabbit | indeed | Jun 25 12:06 |
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| schestowitz | Since Digg did not take action against this (they stopped replying to my complaints), I went to other Web site where behaviour is policed. Tux Machines for example... | Jun 25 12:06 |
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| schestowitz | Maybe it's a pet peeve, but I also have an allergy for Digg's FOSS-loving users whose purpose is 'marketing' (user 'ubuntumarketing' in one case!!). Don't we already have enough astroturfers here for proprietary software companies? This was a community Web site, no? At least it used to be. | Jun 25 12:07 |
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| schestowitz | That's an issue. Some FOSS people do this too. | Jun 25 12:07 |
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| schestowitz | If it's OK for Linux companies, they are encouraging he others too. The site gets ruined. It's the same with lobbying, which Google too got into. | Jun 25 12:08 |
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| schestowitz | An 'Internet friend', Michael Larabel once showed me this: http://digg.com/linux_unix/The_... | Jun 25 12:08 |
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| blackrabbit | perhaps, but maybe it's fine to cut the pro-linux my-distro-is-my-favorite-all-others-are-less-than-equal and focus on the fact that one company has the potential to scatter the community one company at a time by making pacts and patent agreements | Jun 25 12:09 |
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| schestowitz | He said to me: "was past 90 diggs with 21 comments, and then it suddenly disappeared from the upcoming area... Argh." It's not an isolated incident. Generally, Digg got vengeance against certain sites. | Jun 25 12:09 |
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| schestowitz | Well, that's the fear anyway | Jun 25 12:09 |
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| schestowitz | Boycott Novell also looks at FOSS companies that sell out, the BBC, etc. | Jun 25 12:10 |
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| schestowitz | Another friend once told me that Firehose in Slashdot is the same. I'm looking in Thunderbird for the quote. "Do you think they are burying stories to the submissions page on slashdot. Is there a way of scripting it or do they have a team. Like my stories disapear almost immediatly .." | Jun 25 12:10 |
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| schestowitz | Later he wrote: "Ya know, there is something really weird going on here. The firehose story quickly went from violet to blue and then jumped right to red, but now it is yellow. Red is hot, violet is not, and yellow is just shy of red. I really do think that there are Microsoft astroturfers who are paid to vote down FOSS stories on both /. and Digg." | Jun 25 12:11 |
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| schestowitz | The man who wrote this is well known in the FOSS community, but it drove his nuts. | Jun 25 12:11 |
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| blackrabbit | The key is to examine the post history | Jun 25 12:12 |
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| blackrabbit | Several anti-microsoft pro-foss posts eventually hit 0 then go under with time | Jun 25 12:12 |
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| blackrabbit | but if you don't check on them in the future you lose sight | Jun 25 12:12 |
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| schestowitz | It's a productivity sink. | Jun 25 12:13 |
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| blackrabbit | many accounts I've seen on digg, slashdot, and others from people who are anti-foss have shady comment histories | Jun 25 12:13 |
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| blackrabbit | true | Jun 25 12:13 |
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| schestowitz | That same person I mention above was going to point this out to Kevin Rose when doing an interview with him | Jun 25 12:13 |
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| blackrabbit | they know this | Jun 25 12:13 |
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| schestowitz | He knew Kevin back in the days when he started with a Debian server and no money... the dawn of Digg. | Jun 25 12:14 |
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| schestowitz | He wrote: "The appeal of Digg has always been its power as an aggregator of the authentic voices of real users. If the pace of commercialized astroturfing continues, Digg could potentially be seen as a soapbox for advertisers, at which point traffic will decline. Kevin and Jay, it is in your own commercial best interest to preserve the authentic voices of your real readers." | Jun 25 12:14 |
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| blackrabbit | While remaining outside of particulars, let me say that most people, when money enters into the picture, forget philosophies. | Jun 25 12:15 |
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| schestowitz | A different person (professor) later wrote: "That thought occurred to me. So you have seen the experience first hand! I wonder why Digg doesn't consider that to be abuse and do something to curb it. Clearly, if you consistently downrate the same person,you no longer care about the quality of what he posts and it's more of a vindictive, ad hominem attack. " | Jun 25 12:15 |
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| schestowitz | "Surely Digg can do a bit of programming and not allow those people to vote on your articles or, at least, Digg could "downrate" their downratings." | Jun 25 12:16 |
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| schestowitz | Yes. | Jun 25 12:16 |
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| schestowitz | I agree with you. It's an illness. | Jun 25 12:16 |
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| blackrabbit | interesting quotes, thanks for sharing | Jun 25 12:17 |
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| schestowitz | Then there's the issue of physical threat. I did receive some threats. | Jun 25 12:17 |
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| blackrabbit | :( | Jun 25 12:18 |
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| schestowitz | People know my full postal addresses. It's impossible to hide. In USENET, by the way, Groklaw's old registration details appear as well (very detailed with addresses and everything). She moved houses... it's no secret I guess... and hide all personal details after the O'Gara incident. | Jun 25 12:18 |
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| schestowitz | It's not hard to harvest data nowadays, no matter how hard you try to hide. I say this because I've seen friends from USENET totally exposed (their ISP apparently left traces). That's how the 'propaganda' folks try to scare away some friends of mine who post anonymously (they use slander and state one's home address, along with threats at times). It's a form of intimisation. | Jun 25 12:18 |
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| schestowitz | I wish you had seen what COLA is like. Recently they attacked everyone, no matter anonymity! They try to get people in trouble with their employers, too. | Jun 25 12:19 |
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| schestowitz | Anyway, to sum up the Digg situation, The *NIX section is dried up. I don't participate much anymore, either. If you look closely enough, then it's clear that the same 4 people track and attack my activity not just in Digg but elsewhere on the Web. They are merely patrolling the site modding down all my comments and then posting slander about me. | Jun 25 12:20 |
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| blackrabbit | sigh | Jun 25 12:20 |
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| schestowitz | I can't respond to the slander because I don't see their comments. It's akin to a DDOS attack and a distraction tactic. Others are aware of it, so all that 'tinfoil hat' BS won't work for them. Digg chooses to ignore the issue. | Jun 25 12:20 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, thank you for taking the time to go through all of this, I have learned a lot. | Jun 25 12:20 |
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| schestowitz | If you can, just blocklist those users. All they ever do in Digg is bother me and by responding to them, you make their drivel visible. Anyway, that me finished ranting. | Jun 25 12:20 |
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| *schestowitz back to writing BN.com posts. | Jun 25 12:21 |
| blackrabbit | schestowitz, I don't visit Digg :D | Jun 25 12:21 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, it's a crapflood today, IMO | Jun 25 12:21 |
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| schestowitz | It's true and very sad, but while China 'eliminates' people in-house, other countries kill people overseas, often for oil. So let's not be the pot calling the kettle black. | Jun 25 12:21 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.webpronews.com/topnew... ... "gMove does not have a patent, but LimitNone and its attorneys, Kelley Drye & Warren, are hoping to prove Google copied the company's trade secrets." WTF is trade secrets here? The translation of mail? More trouble over trademark (5 years late): http://www.webpronews.com/topn... | Jun 25 13:42 |
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| schestowitz | Hey, lis` | Jun 25 17:32 |
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| PetoKraus | whee, freenode is going doooown | Jun 25 17:34 |
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| schestowitz | ??? | Jun 25 17:34 |
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| PetoKraus | -dmwaters- {global notice} Good day all, In a few minutes I'm going to be rebooting one of our main us hubs. This will mean some splitting, but things should come back together rather quickly. Thank you for your patience, and thank you for using freenode! | Jun 25 17:35 |
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| schestowitz | Oh, /that/. I saw it earlier. They have some script kiddie on their tail. Maybe one of the botnets, who knows...? | Jun 25 17:35 |
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| PetoKraus | botnet of script kiddies | Jun 25 17:36 |
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| PetoKraus | ;) | Jun 25 17:36 |
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| schestowitz | Botnet’s and You: Save the World — Install Linux http://opsamericas.com/?p=646 | Jun 25 17:36 |
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| schestowitz | Trojans infect 2.6 million systems, looking for gamer credentials http://www.itwire.com/co... (both found today) | Jun 25 17:36 |
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| schestowitz | With an estimated 320,000,000 Windows zombies out there, that's what you get. | Jun 25 17:37 |
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| PetoKraus | FUN! | Jun 25 18:09 |
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| yuhong | OOXML support: good | Jun 25 18:41 |
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| yuhong | Claiming that it is as open as ODF just because of such support: BAD | Jun 25 18:41 |
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| schestowitz | OOXML support by whom? | Jun 25 18:45 |
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| yuhong | What I mean by "support" is the ability to open and save OOXML files. | Jun 25 18:47 |
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| schestowitz | But only Microsoft is able to achieve this, don't you agree? | Jun 25 18:48 |
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| yuhong | No I don't agree with that. | Jun 25 18:49 |
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| yuhong | But I know that it is certainly not as open as ODF. | Jun 25 18:49 |
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| PetoKraus | thing can be either open or not | Jun 25 18:50 |
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| PetoKraus | there is nothing like half-open | Jun 25 18:50 |
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| PetoKraus | if part of the standard is not open, then the standard is not open as a whole | Jun 25 18:50 |
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| schestowitz | yuhong, what do you know about OOXML licensing? | Jun 25 18:51 |
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| yuhong | Even if the patent convnent is completely ineffective, the worst that could happen is that you will have to live without one. | Jun 25 18:52 |
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| schestowitz | What would be the impact? | Jun 25 18:53 |
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| yuhong | The impact of a bad convnent would be bad, but no worse than if there is no convnent at all. | Jun 25 18:54 |
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| schestowitz | Asked differently, why do you believe the GPL was excluded deliberately? I wish to test your understanding of this. | Jun 25 18:54 |
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| schestowitz | Do you realise that Microsoft markets OOXML with a useless OSP that excludes rival #1? | Jun 25 18:54 |
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| yuhong | Even if that happens, it is no worse than without the promise. | Jun 25 18:55 |
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| yuhong | BTW, that OSP applies to VHDs, as well as several other specs made by MS. | Jun 25 18:56 |
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| moparx | hey all | Jun 25 18:56 |
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| schestowitz | Hi, moparx | Jun 25 18:56 |
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| moparx | :) | Jun 25 18:57 |
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| yuhong | I am googling for the OSP right now. | Jun 25 18:57 |
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| schestowitz | yuhong, the GPL is the most popular licence. | Jun 25 18:57 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft ignored the majority of developers and lied to the Australian press last week. | Jun 25 18:57 |
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| yuhong | I know about the GPL. | Jun 25 18:58 |
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| yuhong | Anh how it is used in open source. | Jun 25 18:58 |
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| schestowitz | Why would Microsoft exclude it? | Jun 25 18:58 |
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| yuhong | GPL is often used in open source. | Jun 25 18:59 |
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| schestowitz | Is it fair to establish such a thing as ISO (all the other corruptions and technical issues aside)? | Jun 25 18:59 |
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| schestowitz | _most_ often used even. :-) | Jun 25 18:59 |
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| yuhong | That is why I consider OOXML less open than ODF. | Jun 25 18:59 |
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| schestowitz | Only /that/? | Jun 25 19:00 |
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| yuhong | What do you mean? | Jun 25 19:01 |
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| schestowitz | There are other issues. Technical issues, not legal ones. | Jun 25 19:01 |
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| schestowitz | The corruption and the legal issues are a distraction really. | Jun 25 19:02 |
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| yuhong | I know, and that is another reason why I consider OOXML less open than ODF. | Jun 25 19:02 |
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| yuhong | But supporting OOXML is no worse than supporting .doc. | Jun 25 19:03 |
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| schestowitz | The word "open" too is a distraction. OOXML is very defective. | Jun 25 19:03 |
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| schestowitz | .doc will be phased out anyway. It's beside the point. | Jun 25 19:03 |
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| yuhong | Another reason why I consider OOXML less open than ODF. | Jun 25 19:03 |
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| yuhong | In fact, the fact that .DOC is being phased out is another reason to support OOXML. | Jun 25 19:04 |
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| schestowitz | Are you in contact with the proceedings of document standards? | Jun 25 19:04 |
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| yuhong | And is no worst than supporting .DOC. | Jun 25 19:04 |
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| yuhong | No I don't. | Jun 25 19:04 |
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| yuhong | For another example, which is better, Novell SUSE Linux, or Windows. | Jun 25 19:05 |
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| schestowitz | Why is phasing out of DOC/XLS/whatever a route to OOXML? | Jun 25 19:05 |
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| schestowitz | Windows' future is uncertain for technical reasons. Microsoft acknowledges this too, in private. | Jun 25 19:06 |
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| yuhong | I don't believe that. | Jun 25 19:06 |
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| yuhong | But I know .DOC is uncertain, XP is uncertain. | Jun 25 19:06 |
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| yuhong | in the long term, that is. | Jun 25 19:06 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, and the same goes for anything that faces competition. Governments seem to be choosing ODF; the ones that know better anyway. | Jun 25 19:07 |
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| yuhong | I know. | Jun 25 19:07 |
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| schestowitz | It is important that you support storage medium/format that will be accessible when Microsoft is gone. | Jun 25 19:08 |
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| schestowitz | People will need access to documents also 50 years from now. | Jun 25 19:08 |
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| yuhong | For archival stuff, certainly. | Jun 25 19:09 |
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| yuhong | And moving away from obsolete formats is certainly a good thing here. | Jun 25 19:09 |
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| yuhong | And storage mediums get obsolete as well, for example floppy disks. | Jun 25 19:10 |
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| yuhong | In fact, the time to move away from DOC will be a good time to adopt ODF. | Jun 25 19:11 |
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| schestowitz | OOXML has one purpose. | Jun 25 19:11 |
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| schestowitz | Lockin, in disguise and /perceived/ (bogus) added value. | Jun 25 19:12 |
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| yuhong | Even "embarse and extend" would be a lot better. | Jun 25 19:13 |
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| schestowitz | They try this with ODF at the moment. | Jun 25 19:14 |
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| yuhong | Maybe, but even that is better than OOXML. | Jun 25 19:15 |
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| yuhong | In fact, most of what is in ODF that is not in OOXML can be implemented as extensions to ODF, and that is what I perfer. | Jun 25 19:15 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, indeed. | Jun 25 19:16 |
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| schestowitz | The skeleton need to be made universal, at the very least. | Jun 25 19:16 |
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| yuhong | I hope MS is taking this path with the next version of Office. | Jun 25 19:17 |
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| yuhong | Recognizing OOXML as a mistake. | Jun 25 19:18 |
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| yuhong | Vista I am kind of neutral on | Jun 25 19:18 |
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| yuhong | MS-Novell agreement, it is bad. | Jun 25 19:18 |
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| schestowitz | It's intended to dilute the value of FOSS, Mac-ification of Linux. | Jun 25 19:18 |
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| yuhong | But it is more effective to combat it by ensuring that FOSS infringes no software patents. | Jun 25 19:20 |
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| yuhong | Than trying to back out the deal or anything like that | Jun 25 19:21 |
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| schestowitz | Well, it's a bit different from this. | Jun 25 19:22 |
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| yuhong | Indeed that is only one part of the deal and it is the part that is really bad. | Jun 25 19:28 |
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| schestowitz | The deal was carefully constructed so as to derail a product Microsoft could not compete with (based on /real/ standards, cost, compatibility, etc.) | Jun 25 19:29 |
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| yuhong | There are other parts of the deal, the FUD is particularly important, but not as bad as this. | Jun 25 19:29 |
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| yuhong | Maybe. | Jun 25 19:29 |
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| yuhong | But what I am saying is that it is more effective to combat the deal a different way. | Jun 25 19:30 |
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| yuhong | Basically by making sure FOSS does not infridge software patants, thus making the deal ineffective. | Jun 25 19:30 |
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| yuhong | You see, the patent part of the deal only comes into play if FOSS actually infringe a patent. | Jun 25 19:31 |
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| schestowitz | RMS: "Fighting patents one by one will never eliminate the danger of software patents, any more than swatting mosquitoes will eliminate malaria." | Jun 25 19:31 |
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| yuhong | No. | Jun 25 19:32 |
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| schestowitz | Very few countries accept software patents. | Jun 25 19:33 |
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| yuhong | But I am not talking about doing reexamination . | Jun 25 19:33 |
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| yuhong | I know that there are countries that do not have software patents. | Jun 25 19:34 |
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| yuhong | I am talking about making sure that Linux does not infringe any, making part of the deal useless. | Jun 25 19:34 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft won't say a thing about it. It's better to keep 95%+ of the world free from s/w patents. That's how it is now, but the corrupt people work hard to change it. | Jun 25 19:36 |
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| yuhong | yep | Jun 25 19:36 |
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| yuhong | I am talking about making sure that Linux does not infringe any, making part of the deal useless. | Jun 25 19:36 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft will not tell what it claims... it may have never checked, either. | Jun 25 19:37 |
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| yuhong | Indeed making sure Linux does not infringe any patents will not stop the FUD. | Jun 25 19:38 |
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| yuhong | That is why you need to be aware of it. | Jun 25 19:38 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft beaks the law in some places. It's slanderous. Not to worry though because its reputation is down the gutter at the moment. | Jun 25 19:39 |
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| yuhong | I know. | Jun 25 19:39 |
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| yuhong | And do you why MS is not so innovative. | Jun 25 19:40 |
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| yuhong | Go back to MS-DOS. | Jun 25 19:40 |
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| schestowitz | The Gates markting glorification tour? | Jun 25 19:40 |
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| yuhong | It was not innovative at all, but made MS a lot of money. | Jun 25 19:40 |
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| schestowitz | The sabotage? | Jun 25 19:40 |
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| yuhong | Sometimes the only option is to reexamine the patent, like the FAT patents. | Jun 25 19:41 |
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| yuhong | But other times Linux can be modified to not infridge the patent. | Jun 25 19:42 |
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| schestowitz | It's a waste of time. It's better to squash the rotten part of the system. It's already imploding anyway, and not just in the US | Jun 25 19:42 |
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| yuhong | Indeed getting rid of all software patents would be better. | Jun 25 19:43 |
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| yuhong | And better than trying to back out the deal. | Jun 25 19:45 |
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| yuhong | In fact, I said that before. | Jun 25 19:46 |
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| schestowitz | It's too late really. | Jun 25 19:47 |
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| yuhong | Another reason why backing out software patents is better. | Jun 25 19:47 |
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| schestowitz | Practically speaking, Novell needs to be split in the sense that OSUSE devs and others should go elsewhere and leave Novell to 'rot' with its legacy and Microsoft. | Jun 25 19:47 |
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| yuhong | eliminating software patents is better than boycotting novell. | Jun 25 19:49 |
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| yuhong | Because boycotting novell eliminates only one part of the problem. | Jun 25 19:50 |
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| schestowitz | No, not quite. | Jun 25 19:50 |
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| yuhong | I mean, even without the deal, what if Linux is being sued by Microsoft. | Jun 25 19:51 |
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| schestowitz | Just to explain this quickly: it's Novell and others who are willing to use their patents (or bribed) to use the bad system to their advantage against Free software | Jun 25 19:51 |
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| schestowitz | Without the likes of Novell, the ills of the system would be more conveniently ignored. | Jun 25 19:51 |
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| yuhong | Yep, and even without the deal, it can happen. | Jun 25 19:52 |
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| schestowitz | Suing Linux is like suing the sky. | Jun 25 19:52 |
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| yuhong | What do you mean? | Jun 25 19:52 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft can't pull an SCO directly, either. It would get buries. | Jun 25 19:52 |
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| schestowitz | *buried. | Jun 25 19:52 |
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| yuhong | Just to be clear, the deal only is effective if Linux is actually being sued. | Jun 25 19:54 |
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| yuhong | If Novell can't sue, the deal effectively has no effect. | Jun 25 19:55 |
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| yuhong | Which is why getting rid of software patents is better. | Jun 25 19:55 |
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| schestowitz | No, you forget about patent trolls. Microsoft has a few of them lying around. | Jun 25 19:55 |
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| yuhong | Getting rid of software patents would get rid of that as well. | Jun 25 19:56 |
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| schestowitz | That's true too, but the system is corrupt in some countries, so reversing the law is almost impossible. | Jun 25 19:58 |
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| yuhong | Which is why I now recommend making sure Linux infringe no patents instead. | Jun 25 19:59 |
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| yuhong | Viglience is important here. | Jun 25 19:59 |
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| yuhong | Because if Linux infringe no patents, the deal is useless. | Jun 25 20:00 |
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| schestowitz | Linux infringes no /known/ patents. | Jun 25 20:01 |
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| -ChanServ-You have been opped on #boycottnovell by [H]omer | Jun 25 20:01 |
| *ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitz | Jun 25 20:01 |
| yuhong | And people would not have to worry about not being able to use Linux because of patent issues at all. | Jun 25 20:01 |
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| -ChanServ-You have been opped on #slated by [H]omer | Jun 25 20:02 |
| [H]omer | evening all | Jun 25 20:02 |
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| yuhong | One patent I know that Linux probably infringes is the MS FAT patent. | Jun 25 20:02 |
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| schestowitz | Howdy | Jun 25 20:03 |
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| [H]omer | What's happening? | Jun 25 20:03 |
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| schestowitz | MS FAT? Who talked about Ballmer? | Jun 25 20:03 |
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| yuhong | I am afraid the only option for that patent is to reexamine the patent. | Jun 25 20:03 |
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| yuhong | PUBPAT tried it in 2004 but failed. | Jun 25 20:03 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft owns the double-click too, but it wouldn't stand in court. | Jun 25 20:04 |
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| [H]omer | i thought that was amazon | Jun 25 20:04 |
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| yuhong | No it wouldn't. | Jun 25 20:04 |
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| yuhong | http://news.cnet.com/Microsoft... | Jun 25 20:04 |
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| yuhong | When was the double-click patent issued. | Jun 25 20:05 |
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| schestowitz | A long time ago. | Jun 25 20:05 |
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| schestowitz | But FAT had some issue in the EU. I don't care much about the US. | Jun 25 20:05 |
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| schestowitz | That's where the RIAA last week replaced a judge because he wasn't convenient enough for the /make available' madness. | Jun 25 20:05 |
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| yuhong | MS has a patent on UAC, but since it is a clone of sudo, it would not hold up in court. | Jun 25 20:06 |
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| yuhong | When was the double-click patent issued exactly. | Jun 25 20:07 |
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| schestowitz | I can't recall, but it's too trivial | Jun 25 20:07 |
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| schestowitz | It's like patenting morse code. | Jun 25 20:07 |
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| [H]omer | Interesting quote from that link: "Under the terms of the Free Software Foundation's General Public License, Linux cannot be distributed if it contains patented technology that requires royalty payments." | Jun 25 20:08 |
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| [H]omer | Someone should tell Canonical | Jun 25 20:08 |
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| schestowitz | From CNET? | Jun 25 20:08 |
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| [H]omer | Yup | Jun 25 20:09 |
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| yuhong | UAC is a clone of sudo | Jun 25 20:09 |
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| yuhong | And yet what gets the most criticism. | Jun 25 20:09 |
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| yuhong | UAC or sudo. | Jun 25 20:10 |
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| schestowitz | Is the article new, [H]omer? | Jun 25 20:11 |
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| [H]omer | Most of the NT/2K/XP/Vista is a clone of VMS (ex-VMS engineers designed it) | Jun 25 20:11 |
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| [H]omer | January 10, 2006 3:08 PM PST | Jun 25 20:11 |
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| [H]omer | Vista's redesign is just DRM (crap like Protected Media Path) and a new paint job (Aero) | Jun 25 20:13 |
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| schestowitz | Oh, I see... I'm in KNode at the moment, so no browser. Thanks. | Jun 25 20:13 |
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| [H]omer | And a whole lotta bloat too, of course | Jun 25 20:13 |
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| [H]omer | Windows 7 will be even worse | Jun 25 20:13 |
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| schestowitz | I was just about t0 post this to COLA: http://news.cnet.com/8301-10... | Jun 25 20:13 |
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| yuhong | I don | Jun 25 20:15 |
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| yuhong | I don't believe all that talk about Vista. | Jun 25 20:15 |
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| [H]omer | Remember the "Fritz Chip" | Jun 25 20:16 |
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| schestowitz | yuhong, what specifically don't you believe? | Jun 25 20:16 |
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| yuhong | I am neutral on Vista. | Jun 25 20:17 |
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| yuhong | You see. | Jun 25 20:17 |
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| yuhong | The TPM can be used for more than just Palladium | Jun 25 20:17 |
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| schestowitz | That's like saying that shit can be also used to generate fuel. :-) | Jun 25 20:18 |
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| yuhong | It can. | Jun 25 20:18 |
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| yuhong | BitLocker is an example. | Jun 25 20:18 |
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| schestowitz | It has a back door. Useless. | Jun 25 20:19 |
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| yuhong | I don't think so. | Jun 25 20:19 |
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| yuhong | For example, UAC is a clone of sudo. | Jun 25 20:19 |
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| yuhong | And yet what gets the most criticism, UAC or sudo, and why? | Jun 25 20:19 |
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| [H]omer | Good video about "trusted" computing: http://www.lafkon.net/tc/ | Jun 25 20:20 |
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| schestowitz | You miss the point that sudo does not stand in the way excessively. | Jun 25 20:20 |
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| schestowitz | See what RMS calls it: treacherous computing | Jun 25 20:20 |
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| [H]omer | Yeah, I can use Linux for weeks without ever needing root access | Jun 25 20:20 |
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| yuhong | And UAC shouldn't either. | Jun 25 20:20 |
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| [H]omer | Try that on Windows | Jun 25 20:20 |
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| yuhong | It can be in theory be done. | Jun 25 20:21 |
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| [H]omer | Not in practice though | Jun 25 20:21 |
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| [H]omer | And it's that root access that cause all of Windows security issues like viruses | Jun 25 20:22 |
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| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 25 20:22 |
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| [H]omer | UAC does not seem to have helped much | Jun 25 20:22 |
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| yuhong | I am not really sure. | Jun 25 20:22 |
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| [H]omer | Nor the TPM | Jun 25 20:22 |
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| [H]omer | IME most people just turn off UAC because it's a pain | Jun 25 20:22 |
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| schestowitz | Can't set up a printer without it. | Jun 25 20:23 |
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| [H]omer | Thus completely defeating the point | Jun 25 20:23 |
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| yuhong | What I mean is that if you strip UAC to the fundementals, that it is a clone of sudo. | Jun 25 20:23 |
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| schestowitz | yuhong, see this: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.lin... | Jun 25 20:24 |
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| [H]omer | Yes indeed, but Microsoft's implementation is completely broken, which is why everyone just turns it off | Jun 25 20:24 |
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| yuhong | No it isn't. | Jun 25 20:24 |
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| PetoKraus | i'd say | Jun 25 20:24 |
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| PetoKraus | the implementation is not broken | Jun 25 20:24 |
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| yuhong | Most of the problems are not in the implementation. | Jun 25 20:24 |
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| PetoKraus | it's the 3rd party developers fault as well | Jun 25 20:24 |
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| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 25 20:24 |
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| PetoKraus | but again | Jun 25 20:24 |
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| PetoKraus | that's problem of microsoft | Jun 25 20:25 |
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| PetoKraus | stop supporting legacy code, and half of those things will vanish | Jun 25 20:25 |
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| yuhong | MS can't do that, of course. | Jun 25 20:25 |
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| PetoKraus | why? | Jun 25 20:25 |
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| PetoKraus | why can't it do it the same way as Mac Os X transition went? | Jun 25 20:25 |
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| PetoKraus | putting legacy code in a, basically, safe sandboxed system | Jun 25 20:26 |
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| [H]omer | Far too much of what Windows does requires root access, so having a sudo type implementation is useless until Windows can be redesigned to work less promiscuously | Jun 25 20:26 |
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| [H]omer | Like Linux | Jun 25 20:26 |
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| yuhong | Yes, MS could replace the userspace, in fact the kernel have subsystems to help here. | Jun 25 20:26 |
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| yuhong | But it is not likely. | Jun 25 20:27 |
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| PetoKraus | it won't do that, since it'll lose support | Jun 25 20:27 |
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| PetoKraus | it'll be too much work to port older apps (Win32-based) to... eg... .NET | Jun 25 20:27 |
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| [H]omer | Microsoft's best hope lies in the "Singularity Project", but that is mainly about threading, not security | Jun 25 20:27 |
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| yuhong | Yep, remember the VB6 to VB.NET transition. | Jun 25 20:27 |
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| schestowitz | They have SUSE. | Jun 25 20:28 |
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| yuhong | Not likely. | Jun 25 20:29 |
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| yuhong | Yes the implementation has some differences. | Jun 25 20:29 |
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| yuhong | Different defaults, for example | Jun 25 20:29 |
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| [H]omer | Anyway, Microsoft's technical problems do not concern me in the least. That's /their/ problem. It's their /political/ interference with the rest of IT (and Free Software in particular) that concerns me. | Jun 25 20:30 |
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| yuhong | Indeed I mentioned it only because the fact UAC is a clone of sudo make MS's UAC patents invalid. | Jun 25 20:32 |
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| yuhong | Also I don't believe in many of MS's technical problem. | Jun 25 20:32 |
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| *yuhong has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 3.0/2008052906]") | Jun 25 20:38 |
| PetoKraus | d'oh | Jun 25 21:11 |
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| PetoKraus | http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Goi... | Jun 25 21:11 |
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| PetoKraus | silverlight.,... :/ | Jun 25 21:11 |
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| schestowitz | Miguel luvs... | Jun 25 21:12 |
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| PetoKraus | i tried to follow the links | Jun 25 21:15 |
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| PetoKraus | epiphany didn't even care about silverlight installation | Jun 25 21:15 |
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| PetoKraus | ffx 2 shown animation - would you like to install silverlight | Jun 25 21:16 |
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| schestowitz | The EU is studying this (albeit too slowly) | Jun 25 21:17 |
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| cozub | I just ordered my Free Runner :D | Jun 25 21:30 |
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| cozub | looks way nicer than Android, freedom-wise | Jun 25 21:30 |
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| PetoKraus | hmm i am thinking about playing this | Jun 25 21:31 |
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| PetoKraus | http://dunelegacy.sourceforg... | Jun 25 21:31 |
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| schestowitz | cozub, Openmoko just signed a deal with 5 distributors! | Jun 25 21:34 |
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| schestowitz | I'll post some links to news shortly. | Jun 25 21:34 |
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| cozub | well, I'm part of the CZ-SK group order | Jun 25 21:35 |
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| cozub | and we got info from german distributor the phones arrived | Jun 25 21:35 |
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| cozub | (this is unverified, unofficial, btw. :) | Jun 25 21:35 |
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| schestowitz | I remember Openmoko getting a deal in Germany too. About 2 months ago... | Jun 25 21:36 |
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| cozub | officially I don't seem to be able to find any "sales begin" announcement | Jun 25 21:36 |
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| cozub | pulster.se | Jun 25 21:36 |
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| cozub | ee, .de | Jun 25 21:36 |
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| schestowitz | Bruce Perens is enthused about it. | Jun 25 21:36 |
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| cozub | en... what? :) | Jun 25 21:37 |
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| cozub | ok, I mis-typed in dictionary, sorry | Jun 25 21:37 |
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| cozub | I've been waiting for one since oct., so... I'm "begeistert" :) | Jun 25 21:38 |
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| schestowitz | I know someone who wants to develop for it. | Jun 25 21:39 |
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| cozub | I plan to develop for that too... | Jun 25 21:39 |
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| cozub | there are some things I find annoying bout all the phones I've ever had... now I can change it :) | Jun 25 21:40 |
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| schestowitz | Or port your desktop apps to it, for others to enjoy too.... | Jun 25 21:40 |
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| cozub | well, I've got some apps-ideas and some phone-related ideas, like better sms handling etc. | Jun 25 21:41 |
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| cozub | it's all a question of how much free time I have | Jun 25 21:41 |
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| schestowitz | Neuros turns out to have a irc channel for devs... | Jun 25 21:42 |
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| schestowitz | Read about it some hours ago... similar project. | Jun 25 21:42 |
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| cozub | neuros? I know they are producing some friendly-licensed video recored thing | Jun 25 21:43 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, PVR and beyond. | Jun 25 21:43 |
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| schestowitz | Hardware is not as open, I think, but mods are allowed. | Jun 25 21:44 |
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| cozub | I wonder how does android turn out SW-wise... I guess google takes the "pragmatic" approach - they don't mind HW vendors/OEMs providing binary-only crap | Jun 25 21:44 |
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| cozub | I haven't investogate much, I think I read somewhere they encourage SW-hacking, @ least | Jun 25 21:44 |
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| schestowitz | Openmoko Signs Five Distributors for Freerunner Open Source Mobile Phone http://www.ad-hoc-news.de/dru... | Jun 25 21:44 |
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| cozub | btw. I've recently had an experience with symbian at work... It make me even more look forward my Free Runner :) | Jun 25 21:45 |
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| cozub | bc. symbian is a DRM & sign-to-run hell | Jun 25 21:45 |
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| schestowitz | Windows DRM, I presume (if from Nokia...) | Jun 25 21:45 |
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| cozub | well, I kept my hands off so I don't know DRM details, byt overall I was quite disgusted by the platform | Jun 25 21:46 |
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| cozub | I really dislike it when HW manufacturers don't let you (after you BOUGHT the device from them) do with i what you want | Jun 25 21:47 |
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| schestowitz | Like Nintendo and XBox. | Jun 25 21:47 |
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| schestowitz | To an extend, Sony/PS3 also... | Jun 25 21:47 |
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| schestowitz | *extent | Jun 25 21:47 |
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| cozub | so even though the Free Runner could be way better HW-wise, I'm buying it for the freedom | Jun 25 21:48 |
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| schestowitz | Well, as a developer you depend on the manufacturer. Look at Palm. | Jun 25 21:49 |
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| cozub | hm? | Jun 25 21:50 |
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| schestowitz | Lots of apps there. 30,000 for Palm OS | Jun 25 21:52 |
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| *schestowitz says goodnight | Jun 25 22:16 |
| *PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Jun 25 22:16 |
| cozub | good night | Jun 25 22:18 |
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| *lis` has quit ("baibai<3") | Jun 25 22:36 |
| *lis` (n=lis@pub082136126043.dh-hfc.datazug.ch) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 25 22:41 |
| tessier_ | http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/m... | Jun 25 22:48 |
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| tessier_ | schestowitz: You seen that one yet? | Jun 25 22:48 |
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