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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: November 24th, 2008 - Part 2

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kentmaI quite agree, I can't stand snobbery, but I have the greatest respect for effort, achievement and capability.Nov 24 11:05
PetoKrauswell, i love concept albums... that's why i love prog... that's why I can't talk to many people about the music I listen to *grin*Nov 24 11:05
schestowitzWhat a joke... Police get Microsoft on crime < http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/security/pol... >Nov 24 11:05
schestowitzLearning security from Microsoft? How about moving to *NIX?Nov 24 11:06
kentmaPetoKraus: concept albums are a contemporary form of symphony, to my mind, which is perhaps why I like symphonies so much...  I've not much time for nursery pop.Nov 24 11:06
PetoKrausschestowitz: i think it has other, "darker side" as wellNov 24 11:06
schestowitzSeems like a PR thing.Nov 24 11:07
PetoKrausschestowitz: i don't really wanna feel that people from FBI meddled with my OSNov 24 11:07
PetoKrausalso, art is in my opinion not about something beautiful... it's more of a "idea" or "concept" the artist is trying to make. While last NIN's albums were nothing spectacular, I like them, just because the "art" they are doing - Year Zero promo game, US tour incredible stage performances, alternative methods of music distribution....Nov 24 11:09
PetoKrausit strikes me that in 21st century you still see "art has to be nice, pleasant, to be art" ...Nov 24 11:10
schestowitzPetoKraus: Microsoft does with the secret services what Apple and MS do with Hollywood, namely obeying needs for back doors, DRM, etc.Nov 24 11:14
schestowitzThat's why GNU/Linux is so crucial.Nov 24 11:14
schestowitzFor Freedom in _general_ from the copyrights cartel, abuse from elites, etcNov 24 11:14
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schestowitzhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lAbcU... (Will Nader be in the Debate on Sunday?)Nov 24 11:32
kentmaschestowitz: have you changed character encoding on your newss posts recently?Nov 24 11:32
schestowitzI haven't, why?Nov 24 11:33
kentmaUmm, I'm seeing some encoding problems as I go through the digest...Nov 24 11:33
kentmaI'm particularly noticing this on posts from Friday 21st November at the moment.Nov 24 11:39
kentmaschestowitz: interestingly, it seems okay for the 22/11 postings...Nov 24 11:43
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schestowitzCould it be that one post had odd characters?Nov 24 11:47
schestowitzOne bad character can lead to a fallback and I remember seeing one a day or two ago. Try slicing in halves until you pinpoint it maybe?Nov 24 11:47
schestowitzIt was some weird closing bracket that I saw a few days ago.Nov 24 11:48
schestowitzCheck if it's a Muphy post from ZDNet... maybe.Nov 24 11:48
schestowitz*MurphyNov 24 11:49
kentmaschestowitz: it was a whole series of them on last Friday, but seems okay afterwards.Nov 24 11:52
schestowitzThanks a million for doing this!Nov 24 11:53
schestowitzIt upsets the trolls, which means it's very effectiveNov 24 11:53
kentmaschestowitz: agreed... it's good for me, as I get to look through each one, too.  I've learnt quite a bit about bash, vi(m) and sed as well...Nov 24 11:54
kentmaeuropeana site is down due to getting 10 million hits/hour, but they're going to re-launch in December.  I wonder what platform they were on?Nov 24 12:01
schestowitzPeople learnNov 24 12:08
schestowitzNothing wrong with that.Nov 24 12:08
schestowitzSun Micro does 3 million hits a day on two servers, IIRC (for blogs alone). Avg. utilisation just 3%!Nov 24 12:09
PetoKrausniceNov 24 12:53
PetoKrauswell, their sparc-based machines are awesomeNov 24 12:53
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kentmaI was wondering what platform failed at 10 million hits/hour, as well as being amazed at the popularity of the library - personally, I think it's a great idea, of course.Nov 24 13:09
PetoKraustime to go to lab. See you later, guysNov 24 13:12
kentmahave funNov 24 13:12
PetoKrausi hope it'll be fast todayNov 24 13:12
PetoKrausi don't really feel like doing anythingNov 24 13:13
kentmahehe - never mind.  perhaps you'll find something to pique your interestNov 24 13:14
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schestowitzWhy it it that the words "troubles" and "persons" sound so strange?Nov 24 13:45
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kentma"the troubles" has been the name for the problems in NI for a long time - it sounds correct to me, however, the persons is clearly wrong :-)Nov 24 13:51
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seller_liarHello RoyNov 24 13:54
seller_liarForget about yesterday okNov 24 13:54
schestowitzOKNov 24 13:55
seller_liarThanksNov 24 13:55
seller_liarBut ,Yesterday , I was not trying to trollingNov 24 13:57
seller_liarYesterday I was thinking like BerangerNov 24 13:57
seller_liarnothing moreNov 24 13:57
seller_liarBeranger sometimes is very agressiveNov 24 13:57
seller_liarBut beranger do not forget about freedoomNov 24 13:57
seller_liarOnly this ,Nov 24 13:58
seller_liarBut sorry if I have cause troublesNov 24 13:59
seller_liarWhat we must do to spread freedom over society?Nov 24 14:01
seller_liarWe need to grow the Freedom adoption (no only linux adoption ,but freebsd and opesolaris too)Nov 24 14:02
trmancoHiNov 24 14:02
seller_liartrmanco: helloNov 24 14:03
trmancoHiNov 24 14:03
schestowitzI still think some points (all?) were invalid and lacked evidence.Nov 24 14:03
seller_liarMaybeNov 24 14:04
seller_liarLack of hardware manager and wizards for driver installation is importantNov 24 14:04
seller_liarPackage systems only install ,he does not help the userNov 24 14:05
MinceRyeah, we must force the user to click through meaningless wizards so he can feel as if he was doing somethingNov 24 14:05
seller_liarRelax MinceRNov 24 14:05
seller_liarThese wizards are very important for the userNov 24 14:06
MinceRyeah, they make them feel all warm and fuzzyNov 24 14:06
seller_liarIs not only prideNov 24 14:06
MinceRnever mind that they aren't accomplishing anythingNov 24 14:06
seller_liarWelcome to installation of ........Nov 24 14:06
seller_liarI knowNov 24 14:06
seller_liarBut the user does nothing about driver installationNov 24 14:06
seller_liarAnd good wizards helps a lotNov 24 14:07
MinceRfor idiots who only want to pretend they're using a computer, we already have crApple productsNov 24 14:07
seller_liarCrapple is stupidNov 24 14:07
MinceRno need to help a lot when most drivers are already installedNov 24 14:07
seller_liarDoes not contain freedomNov 24 14:07
MinceRwow, finally we agree on somethingNov 24 14:07
seller_liarOnly slavery and destructionNov 24 14:07
MinceRno need to help a lot when installing the proprietary driver is installing a single package (especially if when the hardware is found the user is somehow notified about it, iirc ubuntu does this already)Nov 24 14:08
seller_liarI do not knowNov 24 14:09
trmancowizards make user dumbNov 24 14:09
trmancothey have little of information of where the config files are located, for exampleNov 24 14:10
trmancoPersonally I hate wizards, especially the ones that take from you your freedomNov 24 14:10
trmancousers*Nov 24 14:11
seller_liarBut ,the user loves ,this is not "to be" windows , this is only help the userNov 24 14:11
trmancoand as for the "hardware manager"Nov 24 14:12
MinceRhaving the user click through meaningless dialogs doesn't help the userNov 24 14:12
trmanco$sudo apt-get install hardinfo wil do in ubuntuNov 24 14:12
trmancowill*Nov 24 14:12
seller_liarA long Time ago , the Hardware Manager helps a lot installing driversNov 24 14:12
seller_liarHardinfo is a simple frontend and only informsNov 24 14:13
seller_liarIt's not possible to install driversNov 24 14:13
trmancogo to synaptic or install the driver the Windows wayNov 24 14:13
trmancofind it, download an installNov 24 14:13
seller_liarSynaptic is very modular ,there are a lot of packagesNov 24 14:14
seller_liaris very confusing for the userNov 24 14:14
seller_liarAdd/Remove is very smart and simpleNov 24 14:14
seller_liarBut a simple hardware manager is betterNov 24 14:14
trmancoI hat add/removeNov 24 14:15
trmancoit hides a lot a needed info of a certain packageNov 24 14:15
trmancoof*Nov 24 14:16
seller_liarBut helps the user because of simplicityNov 24 14:16
trmancosimplicity makes users dumbNov 24 14:16
seller_liarUser Always will be dumbNov 24 14:17
trmancothey should know where everthing is and how it works, It helps you learn how the system worksNov 24 14:17
seller_liarHe will stop to be dumb when  he wants to be smartNov 24 14:17
seller_liarIs very hard to convince people using the hard way of lifeNov 24 14:17
seller_liarThe easy way is more fast to convinceNov 24 14:18
seller_liarAnd later we teach them  the hard wayNov 24 14:18
trmancothey won't want the hard way if they know the easy wayNov 24 14:18
trmancoa simple exampleNov 24 14:18
trmancowhen somebody wants to learn how to work with a computer, they should always start with a command line (hard for some/easy for others)Nov 24 14:19
seller_liarThis is not good for actual eraNov 24 14:20
trmancoyes it yesNov 24 14:20
trmancoeverybody should know basic command line utilitiesNov 24 14:21
trmancoand if they don't want to learn, then don't bother using a computer thenNov 24 14:21
_dougtrmanco: yea, they should teach CLI in school ..Nov 24 14:21
trmancothey will know nothing or very little with the stupid HUI'sNov 24 14:21
trmanco_doug, yesNov 24 14:21
trmancoIMO, at leastNov 24 14:21
MinceRHUI in russian? :>Nov 24 14:21
trmancooopsNov 24 14:22
trmancoGUI's*Nov 24 14:22
trmancostarting with GUI's*Nov 24 14:22
seller_liarThis will fail!Nov 24 14:22
seller_liarCLI is DIED!!!!!!!Nov 24 14:22
trmancono it isn'tNov 24 14:23
seller_liarIS DEADNov 24 14:23
seller_liarsooryNov 24 14:23
MinceRit neither is deadNov 24 14:23
trmancoit is dead in the Wind ows worldNov 24 14:23
seller_liarPeople does not to use Vi or emacs for simple thingsNov 24 14:23
seller_liarDIEDNov 24 14:23
*MinceR is not-people, apparentlyNov 24 14:23
trmancobecause they found a way to hide stuff from the user by using a simple and legal GUINov 24 14:24
MinceRunless we consider vim a special caseNov 24 14:24
trmancoseller_liar, they should start from thereNov 24 14:24
trmancoand then go to the GUI partNov 24 14:24
MinceRseller_liar: protip: GUIs don't have the full power of a CLINov 24 14:24
seller_liarThey should start using guisNov 24 14:24
seller_liarBecause a lot of people comes of windowzNov 24 14:24
trmancothat is the only way they can realize the evolutionNov 24 14:24
seller_liarAnd people WILL NOT change the system for use CLINov 24 14:25
_dougot: couple sue McDonald's over nude photos  ..Nov 24 14:25
_doughttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/...Nov 24 14:25
trmancowell that is there problem not mineNov 24 14:25
seller_liarHave you seen Super Size Me?Nov 24 14:25
_dougot: Good grief, what is it to do with McBurger if you lose your own phone .. ??Nov 24 14:25
seller_liarStupid McStupidNov 24 14:25
trmancoif users wan't to be stupid, they can swim in there stupidness, and die very little "culture"Nov 24 14:26
trmancowith*Nov 24 14:26
seller_liarThe problem is about 90% of people is StupidNov 24 14:26
seller_liarIf Stupid people dies , there's nothing to liveNov 24 14:26
_dougthey are not stupid, just intellectually lazy, haven't learned something new since they left school ..Nov 24 14:27
MinceRi think people could start with GUIs and learn things graduallNov 24 14:27
MinceRyNov 24 14:27
_dougWhat the Windows GUI promises, is results without effort ..Nov 24 14:27
seller_liarOf courseNov 24 14:27
MinceRbut they shouldn't expect the system to read their minds or to work without effort on the part of the userNov 24 14:27
seller_liarOf courseNov 24 14:28
_dougBut what people don't seem to realize is that, the computer can only do what you tell it ..Nov 24 14:28
MinceRa computer is a complex tool for complex tasks, it can't be fully utilized without learning its useNov 24 14:28
seller_liarBut we need some Guis to help the userNov 24 14:28
trmancowe already have GUI'sNov 24 14:28
seller_liarLack wizardsNov 24 14:28
trmancoI hate wizardsNov 24 14:28
seller_liarLack gui without "frontends"Nov 24 14:28
MinceRseller_liar: we need GUIs to help the user do common tasks, not to coddle them with "welcome to the installation of something that could have been automatically installed without your knowledge"Nov 24 14:28
seller_liarThe user notNov 24 14:29
MinceRand frontends can fully accomplish what i'm talking aboutNov 24 14:29
seller_liarWindows uses wizard to pervert peopleNov 24 14:29
MinceRfor configuration/administration jobsNov 24 14:29
trmancowizard are annoyingNov 24 14:29
seller_liarLinux does not need follow the "windows way"Nov 24 14:29
trmancothen why are you saying this then?Nov 24 14:30
seller_liarBut lookNov 24 14:30
seller_liarInstallShields for example is more user friendly than packagesNov 24 14:30
trmancothe windows way is with wizards and a bunch of bloated GUI'sNov 24 14:30
MinceRinstallshield is one of the shittiest software i've ever seenNov 24 14:30
trmancoyesNov 24 14:30
_doughttp://www.scribd.com/doc/69157/Dumb-or...Nov 24 14:30
trmancoit suckNov 24 14:30
trmancosucks*Nov 24 14:30
MinceRit unpacks itself at least three times and then leaves an isdel.exe running that in some cases slows installation to a crawlNov 24 14:30
MinceRand standalone installers are a stupid concept that needs to dieNov 24 14:31
MinceR(even m$ realizes this now, hence msi)Nov 24 14:31
seller_liarBad design maybe, but it's a good ideaNov 24 14:31
MinceRno, it's notNov 24 14:31
seller_liaris Very User friendlyNov 24 14:31
trmancoas I already said, you need to be a genius to understand the *nixes simplicityNov 24 14:31
MinceRit's useless replication of code and bloatNov 24 14:31
MinceRand it keeps installation and upgrade from happening automaticallyNov 24 14:31
trmancoor in this case LinuxNov 24 14:31
MinceRit forces the user to click through all the installers every timeNov 24 14:31
MinceRit also lacks the smart dependency handling package managers provide.Nov 24 14:32
seller_liarMsi is goodNov 24 14:33
_dougapt-get install [package-name]: how is this too complicated ?Nov 24 14:33
trmancoMSI?Nov 24 14:33
seller_liarA good wizardNov 24 14:33
trmanco:ONov 24 14:33
schestowitz*LOL* HUINov 24 14:33
trmancoand a slow one tooNov 24 14:33
trmancoschestowitz, typoNov 24 14:33
trmanco:(Nov 24 14:33
*schestowitz knows the bad Russian wordsNov 24 14:33
trmancooh crapNov 24 14:33
trmancowhat does that mean?Nov 24 14:33
MinceRschestowitz: :)Nov 24 14:34
_dougthis whole thread is boring, GUI v CLI .. I'm taking a break until sanity is restored ..Nov 24 14:34
schestowitzKDE has wizards too. Better than Windows'Nov 24 14:36
schestowitztrmanco: yes, it's a typo and you SHOUTED it.Nov 24 14:36
seller_liarFor hardware configuration ???Nov 24 14:37
schestowitzWindows has them for h/w?Nov 24 14:38
schestowitzNetwork is not hardwareNov 24 14:38
trmancoHUI (acronym), Hawaiian User Interface - created for Hawaiian AirlinesNov 24 14:38
schestowitzThe best 'wizard' for Windows is the 15-year-old geek next doorNov 24 14:38
MinceRthose perverted hawaiian russiansNov 24 14:38
schestowitzThat's how people get Windows to 'work'Nov 24 14:39
schestowitz[or be 'mended']Nov 24 14:39
seller_liarWindows have Wizard for netwroking configurationNov 24 14:39
MinceRthe best wizard for windows is the kubuntu graphical installerNov 24 14:39
trmancoha found what in meansNov 24 14:39
schestowitzWindows HUI errorNov 24 14:40
schestowitz*GUINov 24 14:40
seller_liarAnother problem is a lot of tuto writers does not create Gui-based TutorialsNov 24 14:40
seller_liarOnly create CLI-based TutorialsNov 24 14:40
seller_liartype ls mkdir blablablaNov 24 14:40
seller_liarAnd windows and Crapple Macsh*tNov 24 14:41
seller_liarClick on x ,click on y ,blablaNov 24 14:41
seller_liarThis is very UGLYNov 24 14:42
seller_liarEven using Kubuntu ,a lot of tutos are based in CLINov 24 14:42
seller_liarAnother big problem is lack of group localization testersNov 24 14:45
seller_liarAbout 70% of distros I have teste have problems with translations and KeyboardNov 24 14:45
seller_liarExcept Debian onesNov 24 14:46
seller_liarEven Fedora have problemsNov 24 14:46
_dougADO.NET Entity Framework don't support change tracking ..Nov 24 14:46
_doughttp://www.infoq.com/news/2008/11/EF-2010-...Nov 24 14:46
seller_liarWill mono support?Nov 24 14:47
seller_liarOrNov 24 14:47
seller_liarNovell will clone m$ behavior?Nov 24 14:47
_dougWill 'Black Monday' Bring Malware Armageddon?Nov 24 14:50
_doughttp://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/15432...Nov 24 14:50
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schestowitz_doug: Black Money will bring something else.Nov 24 14:57
schestowitzLast night I spoke to  friend whose informant in the US talk of some kind of mobiliation.Nov 24 14:57
schestowitzRetired army people are being brought back and nobody knows why/Nov 24 14:58
_doug"seller_liar": The 10 Commandments for New Linux Users .. http://snipurl.com/6o838Nov 24 14:59
trmancohttp://shelleytherepublican.com/2006/04/20/li...Nov 24 15:00
trmanconon senseNov 24 15:00
_doughttp://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/...Nov 24 15:00
seller_liarI'm not a new Linux userNov 24 15:01
seller_liarOnly a simple GNU Linux userNov 24 15:01
_doughow long have you sues nix ?Nov 24 15:01
_dougused ..Nov 24 15:01
_dougthose rules still apply, kep it simple, don't reinvent the wheel ..Nov 24 15:02
_dougCan you give me a specific example of a problem you came across ?Nov 24 15:03
_dougwhich distros have you used ?Nov 24 15:03
seller_liarConstants emake or die of gentooNov 24 15:03
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_dougyou're back on Gentoo ;)Nov 24 15:03
_dougemake, what application ?Nov 24 15:04
seller_liarNo!Nov 24 15:04
seller_liarMy problem is only oneNov 24 15:04
seller_liarSpread of Freedom (no only Linux)Nov 24 15:04
_dougyou have a problem with emake on Gentoo .. yea ?Nov 24 15:04
seller_liarNot anymore ,I 'm not usingNov 24 15:04
seller_liarActually I don't have problemsNov 24 15:05
_dougwhat problems did you come across and on what distro ?Nov 24 15:05
seller_liarSabayon Gnu LinuxNov 24 15:05
seller_liarJava installation using stupid java-config is soooo stupidNov 24 15:05
MinceR_seller_liar: there's an extremely simple solution to the lack of GUI-based tutorialsNov 24 15:05
MinceR_make some ;)Nov 24 15:05
*MinceR_ is now known as MinceRNov 24 15:05
_dougOh, you're just waxing philosophical ..Nov 24 15:05
seller_liarNo doug!Nov 24 15:06
seller_liarSabayon and Gentoo is complex for install javaNov 24 15:06
_dougseller_liar: tutorials, try reading the man pages or using the INFO untility ..Nov 24 15:06
seller_liarPeople need to educate and create GUi-based tutosNov 24 15:07
seller_liarMan pages!!!!!!!Nov 24 15:07
seller_liarMan is a very primitive ancestral stupid help!Nov 24 15:07
_dougseller_liar: what did the support forum have to say about installing Java on Gentoo ?Nov 24 15:07
MinceRi prefer infoNov 24 15:07
seller_liarA lot of things ,About 100 pages about icedteaNov 24 15:08
kentmaseller_liar: if you need GUI tutorials, then you should avoid the likes of Gentoo, which are designed for technical users who can work man pages, /usr/share/doc/readme, info, irc channels, mailing lists and the likeNov 24 15:08
seller_liarI know, I'm not using anymoreNov 24 15:08
_dougdid you get a response when you posted your problem ?Nov 24 15:08
seller_liarThere's no need , all solutions have createNov 24 15:09
kentmaseller_liar: I don't mean to be rude, I think it's just being realistic about the intended market for a given distribution.  Probably you should stick with Ubuntu, Debian, Red Hat, openSuSE, Mandriva and such like.Nov 24 15:09
seller_liarThe problem is read about 100 pages of forumNov 24 15:09
kentmaseller_liar: search?Nov 24 15:09
seller_liarYes ,is a solution ,.but is not a good oneNov 24 15:09
_dougselleer_liar: you had problems with emake and java on Gentoo, but never bothered to post a query on the support forum. How else did you expect to solve it?Nov 24 15:10
seller_liarNo doug, I have resolved my problems in gentooNov 24 15:10
seller_liarI' have visited bugzilla for emake and gentoo forum for icedteaNov 24 15:11
_dougselleer_liar: what distros have you tried apart from Gentoo, one of the most esoteric and difficult ones for a beginner to try ?Nov 24 15:11
seller_liarBut I'm not using gentoo anymoreNov 24 15:11
_dougselleer_liar: what support questions did *you* post ?Nov 24 15:11
seller_liarI'm not post nothingNov 24 15:12
_dougselleer_liar: what distros have you tried, what distro are you using currently ?Nov 24 15:12
seller_liarAll questions have answeredNov 24 15:12
seller_liarKubuntu 8.10Nov 24 15:12
_dougselleer_liar: how do you expect people to solve your problem, if you don't ask ?Nov 24 15:12
seller_liarMy problems have resolvedNov 24 15:12
seller_liarThere's  no problem anymoreNov 24 15:12
seller_liarAnd I'm not using gentoo anymoreNov 24 15:13
kentmaseller_liar:  probably best for you.  Doug is right, though - if you have a problem and don't ask, then nobody will be able to help you.Nov 24 15:13
seller_liarI have Installed Mandriva(good! )Pardus ,Sabayon, PC-BSD(good !), Ubuntu(good)Nov 24 15:14
seller_liarSlackware,Nov 24 15:14
_dougseller_liar: you first tried Gentoo and then Kubuntu, is that correct ?Nov 24 15:14
seller_liarNo ,Nov 24 15:14
_dougseller_liar: you first tried Gentoo, slackware and then Kubuntu ?Nov 24 15:14
seller_liarMy first distro was KuruminNov 24 15:14
seller_liarSorryNov 24 15:15
kentmaMandriva, kubuntu & Ubuntu are all aimed at beginner users.  PC-BSD is absolutely stuck in man-pages, though...Nov 24 15:15
_dougseller_liar: in order, tell us what distros you used ?Nov 24 15:15
seller_liarConectiva 6Nov 24 15:15
seller_liarConectiva 6, Kurumin,Ubuntu,Debian, Kubuntu,Ubuntu,Mandriva,Gentoo,Sabayon,Mandriva,and Finally KubuntuNov 24 15:15
seller_liarAnd other I have used for a little timeNov 24 15:16
_dougseller_liar: any problems with Kubuntu ?Nov 24 15:16
seller_liarSome bugs in Dolphin, but not fatalNov 24 15:16
_dougseller_liar: what bugs in Dolphin ?Nov 24 15:16
seller_liarIt crashed sometimes , When try to copy some filesNov 24 15:17
_dougpersonally I installed Kubuntu, added xfce and used KDE for filemanagement .. call me lazy ..Nov 24 15:17
_dougseller_liar: what did the help forum say when you reported bugs in Dolphin ?Nov 24 15:18
_dougseller_liar: for copying files, fire up bash and type $cp -r source_dir/* /dest_dir ..Nov 24 15:19
seller_liarAh , I have post nothingNov 24 15:19
_dougseller_liar: where did you get your copy of Kubuntu ?Nov 24 15:19
seller_liarKubuntu home pageNov 24 15:20
seller_liarHahha very funnyNov 24 15:20
_dougseller_liar: why not sign up for a support contract with Canonical Ltd ?Nov 24 15:20
seller_liarheheNov 24 15:20
seller_liarnoNov 24 15:20
kentmaseller_liar: why not?Nov 24 15:20
_dougseller_liar: if you won't post to the support forums and won't sign a support contract, then who do you expect to fix your 'bugs' the shoe fairys ?Nov 24 15:21
seller_liarMy problems are lack of freedom in actual societyNov 24 15:22
seller_liarBugs are not a BIG problemNov 24 15:22
_dougseller_liar: explain how a linux distro restricts your freedom in society ?Nov 24 15:23
kentmaseller_liar: why don't you get a support contract from Canonical?  It's not a trick question - is there a particular reason?  Is this just personal use?  Do you like dabbling anyway?  Do you lack the funds?Nov 24 15:23
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_doughttp://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.htmlNov 24 15:23
seller_liarStop I'm not trollingNov 24 15:24
seller_liarLets start BoycottnovellNov 24 15:24
schestowitzWhat kind of a new user goes for Gentoo or unstable (cutting-edge) distro from a 19 -year-old (Sabayon)? *rolls eyes*Nov 24 15:27
schestowitzIt's like a man who buys computer components to build a PC rather than order a prebuilt one... don't complain if you ask for the advanced route.Nov 24 15:27
seller_liarGentoo was not my first distroNov 24 15:28
schestowitzMandriva has Java and everything out of the box.Nov 24 15:28
trmancohttp://tecnologia.terra.com.br/interna...Nov 24 15:28
seller_liarGentoo was only curiosityNov 24 15:28
seller_liarIs coolNov 24 15:28
seller_liarI like to test new distrosNov 24 15:29
seller_liarOf course , I will not like all themNov 24 15:29
seller_liarMy first distro was conectiva 6Nov 24 15:29
seller_liarAnd after, kuruminNov 24 15:30
seller_liarMandriva and Ubuntu have good installation of IcedteaNov 24 15:30
neighborleeschestowitz, I  was born and rasied in iowa yet,,but my home is in washington state yes ;))Nov 24 15:30
neighborleeschestowitz, seatte area yupNov 24 15:31
neighborleewell if not for mono, I guarantree you I would likely have gone mandrivaNov 24 15:31
kentmaseller_liar: but if you enjoy playing with distros, you can hardly expect them to be all the same, so what's the point of complaining about things you were not able to resolve?   The alternative is something like the Windows world, where there is no choice at all... presumably you wouldn't like that, so why complain about the implications of choice?Nov 24 15:32
neighborleetheir latest 2009 livecd is stunningly fast compared to all of them.Nov 24 15:32
neighborleeand thats , imho anyway the probem with linux,,not even consistency for new people..too much choice <<Nov 24 15:32
neighborleeit confuses unnecessarilyNov 24 15:32
neighborleeI see it all the time , though there are a few distros getting  the most use Im rather sure, which does help circumvent that issue :)Nov 24 15:33
seller_liarkentma: I like to share opinions , only thisNov 24 15:33
seller_liarkentma: I can try to solve all problems , but is very hard to do everything aloneNov 24 15:33
kentmaseller_liar: we all do, but you seem to be doing so without really considering the markets for the distros - for example, you complain about man pages, and yet decide to install gentoo - this is not a logically consistent position.Nov 24 15:34
seller_liarkentma: And then I try to explain for people my ideasNov 24 15:34
kentmaneighborlee: when all the people are the same, then choice will be a bad thing.  Until then, it is a good thing.Nov 24 15:34
kentmaseller_liar: fine, but if those ideas are not based on an initial rational position, they are unlikely to be of value to anyone.Nov 24 15:35
seller_liarkentma:  Simply, I do not use man pages of gentoo ,I like optimizationNov 24 15:35
neighborleekentma, yes and noNov 24 15:35
seller_liarAnd my mind have changedNov 24 15:35
neighborleekentma, most major distro releases have all had issues there should never have beenNov 24 15:35
kentmaneighborlee: yes and yes.Nov 24 15:35
neighborleewrongNov 24 15:35
kentmaneighborlee: and grass is sometimes a slightly different shade of green.. welcome to the real world.Nov 24 15:35
neighborleeQA is unacceptable.Nov 24 15:35
neighborleethats making the arguement very simplistic.Nov 24 15:36
neighborlee:)Nov 24 15:36
kentmaneighborlee: whereas "yes and no" is not making it simplistic?  It seems to me that you like to simplify when it suits you.Nov 24 15:36
seller_liarLets stop talking about thisNov 24 15:36
neighborleeok you can stop with the mono -like at tacks ;)Nov 24 15:36
neighborleecause I wont reply anymore if you doNov 24 15:37
kentmaneighborlee: what's a mono-like attack?Nov 24 15:37
neighborlee'when it suits you'..thats very ridiculous.Nov 24 15:37
kentmaneighborlee: ah, so you want to be able to simply a point to "yes and no", (I quote you) when it suits you, and not let anyone point out that you did it?  Please correct me if I have that wrong somewhere...Nov 24 15:38
neighborleeif given a chance, I would have explained 'yes and no', ;)Nov 24 15:38
kentmaneighborlee: okay - go on then...Nov 24 15:38
kentmaneighborlee: please explain why taking my choices away is better for me?Nov 24 15:39
kentmaokay - you can't.Nov 24 15:40
schestowitzneighborlee: be careful what you say in Seattle.Nov 24 15:41
schestowitz[some of the BN trolls post from there]Nov 24 15:41
neighborleekentma, you know what assuming does right ;))Nov 24 15:41
neighborleeschestowitz, ill take my beebee gun with me ;)Nov 24 15:41
neighborleeroflNov 24 15:41
schestowitzneighborlee: Mandriva 2009 is supposed not to have Mono (by default)Nov 24 15:42
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kentmaneighborlee: I'm sorry, I didn't understand your last message...Nov 24 15:42
schestowitzSee the BN post when Alanw replied to me.Nov 24 15:42
schestowitzThey removed it after complaints.Nov 24 15:42
neighborleeOMG are you kiddingNov 24 15:42
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neighborleedont kid me like that lolNov 24 15:42
neighborleehmm urlNov 24 15:42
neighborleeis it obvious from bn homepage ?Nov 24 15:42
neighborleekentma, sorry I was trying to find a youtube link..once I do ill comment further why sometimes choice isn't what it seemsNov 24 15:43
neighborleekentma, but in the meantime..and im NOT sticking up for windows on a FOSS level anyway ;)..if choice was so   amazing, you would think a operating system that has little compared to linux anyway would falter in a huge way  ?Nov 24 15:44
schestowitzHold onNov 24 15:44
neighborleeokNov 24 15:44
kentmaneighborlee: only if you didn't understand how lock-in works.Nov 24 15:44
neighborleeic :)Nov 24 15:44
neighborleewell tel that to my anal friend in seattle, that uses windows everyday , and has no trouble with the 'lock-in' ;)Nov 24 15:45
schestowitzneighborlee: see update at the top of this < http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/1... > and comment at the bottom (from Mandriva)Nov 24 15:45
neighborleeid be happy to ask here to come here sometime and tell her storyNov 24 15:45
kentmaneighborlee: I wonder if you do.  Exit cost is a major barrier, but most certainly not the only barrier to adoption of new technologies.Nov 24 15:45
neighborleeschestowitz, ok thxNov 24 15:45
kentmaneighborlee: mindshare, attitude, familiarity, the network effect, fear of change, fear of computers are all issues here ... which one is hers?Nov 24 15:45
neighborleekentma, price of change sometimes ;(Nov 24 15:45
neighborleekentma, my friend is fearlessNov 24 15:46
neighborleesmart, kind..Nov 24 15:46
neighborleea very capable personNov 24 15:46
kentmaneighborlee:  if she's mostly using a web browser, then it's pretty much a non-issue.Nov 24 15:46
neighborlee?Nov 24 15:47
kentmaAh, general capability is another vector, it doesn't affect the network effect, familiarity, fear of change and so on which almost everyone suffers from no matter how smart they might be.Nov 24 15:47
neighborleeoh ,,no she is way beyond, just a web browser ;)Nov 24 15:47
kentmaneighborlee:  beyond what, though?  most people are moving to mobility now, so the web-browser is the key tool into google docs, mail, youtube, facebook, 2ndlife, etc.Nov 24 15:47
kentmaif she sees no need to change, then you are probably wasting your time.Nov 24 15:48
kentmachange, for her, would be effort with no reward.Nov 24 15:48
neighborleewell its less  need to change, and instead a need to stayNov 24 15:48
neighborleethe few times she's  used linux she had trouble with some hardware she depends on..hence the lock-in im afraid does have some meaning but its hardly her fault in that she's not capable of making such a move.Nov 24 15:49
neighborleesometimes that is just the reality of our lives.Nov 24 15:49
kentmaneighborlee: if there is no compelling reason for change, then she won't do it.  If there are hardware issues too, then that will make things worse.Nov 24 15:49
neighborleenot for her lack of trying I can guarantee that.Nov 24 15:49
kentmaI don't know what she's doing - perhaps an AsusEEE with Linux on it would do the job?  she might like that - girls like them very much because they're small and light.Nov 24 15:50
neighborleeshe is the one that actually introduced me TO linux , years ago..so she has tried courageously off and onNov 24 15:50
neighborleeLOLNov 24 15:50
neighborleewell ;)Nov 24 15:50
kentmawhy LOL?Nov 24 15:50
neighborleemy friend is uniqueNov 24 15:51
kentmaso is everyone... hence the need for choice...Nov 24 15:51
neighborleeshe's not a fluffy girl type that needs pink ribbons and ,,well...she's just herself ;)Nov 24 15:51
kentmadoes she want to change her PC at all?Nov 24 15:51
neighborleewe haven't talked about linux for sometimes on a meaningful level, mainly because the few apps/hardware requirements she has keep her from going linux in a serious way..mostly a few apps, but d efinitely games are a HUGE hurdle.Nov 24 15:52
kentmamy kids spend hours playing games.  We have no windows machines.  It's not necessarily a barrier.Nov 24 15:52
neighborleeim afraid in this case, games are a sad lock-in yes..hardly linux's fault, thats just a sad reality when your market share is so low and yes we can debate why that is so I suppose ;)Nov 24 15:52
kentmaDesktop PCs are a dead technology - most gamers have moved onto consoles.Nov 24 15:53
neighborleehmm ,,to what levels I dont know..have you see hard      #'s ?Nov 24 15:53
kentmawii and PS3 are the popular choices, and are where most of the games are.Nov 24 15:53
neighborleebut I am sure there is a driving force to trend that way yesNov 24 15:54
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kentmaneighborlee: the world has moved to mobility for personal stuff, everything is becoming hosted and stored network-side for day to day interactions, and even many major games are MUD-type interactive games, or FPSs with a network-side host.Nov 24 15:54
neighborleeI go from PC to wii often.but im not the typical player either..I dont do hack n slash often I preefer deep rpg &/or deep stategy..something with depth instead of slashNov 24 15:54
neighborleebut I can tell you for sure, she does enjoy WoW alot lately....to my shagrinNov 24 15:55
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kentmaindeed. My kids love Runscape, and also play World of Warcraft too.Nov 24 15:55
neighborleeits not free ;(Nov 24 15:55
kentmaWoW runs on Macs.Nov 24 15:55
neighborleeand not linuxNov 24 15:55
neighborleeI wonder why that isNov 24 15:55
kentmaeconomics of lock-in.Nov 24 15:55
neighborleewow developers just hate linuxNov 24 15:56
neighborleestill searching for that youtube choice thingNov 24 15:56
neighborleedain I had it last night ;(Nov 24 15:56
kentmaneighborlee: haha!  no, it's economics.Nov 24 15:56
neighborleehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6XEQIsCoMNov 24 15:57
kentmagame developers (aside from GPLed ones) are specifically there to make lots of money from their customers, and anyone else in the channel.  If, say, Microsoft will pay them a lot to not port to a given platform, they'll look at the economics and determine whether it's worth it.Nov 24 15:57
trmancohttp://www.linux.com/var/uploa... just found thisNov 24 15:58
neighborleethat would be unfortunate I agree,,if trueNov 24 15:58
trmancohttp://www.linux.com/feature/120731Nov 24 15:58
kentmawe know that it's true.Nov 24 15:58
neighborleegiven that is M$, id be tempted to believe it of course,,Nov 24 15:58
kentmaIt's *all* about economics.Nov 24 15:58
neighborleeyou gotta wonder why linux has taken so   amazing long to get  higher share figures thoughNov 24 15:59
kentmaDo you know who paid Schwartz for his presentation, btw?Nov 24 15:59
neighborleeis it all hardware lock-in and money palmed?..I find that  a bit hard to believe :)Nov 24 15:59
kentmaneighborlee: why is that hard to believe?Nov 24 15:59
neighborleebecause I 've used linuxNov 24 15:59
neighborleeits not the panacea you might think it isNov 24 15:59
kentmaneighborlee: that's nothing to do with economics, is it?Nov 24 15:59
neighborleeits a side affect sadlyNov 24 16:00
neighborleeI use and love the linux OS , but im a realist too..im not afraid to push back a little..some are im not.Nov 24 16:00
neighborleeie: im not a linux appologistNov 24 16:00
kentmaI've no idea what you mean.  The issue is economics, and Linux is gradually, slowly, but surely winning this battle, because economically, it *must* win.Nov 24 16:00
neighborleefor wayyyyy too long linux has been a geek OSNov 24 16:01
kentmathere is no way that Microsoft can afford to take on Linux, for example.Nov 24 16:01
neighborleein a ever changing world, I dont think it can correct,,foss is winninng mindshare I think yesNov 24 16:01
kentmaI don't know what a "geek OS" is, but I do know that Linux is dominant in many areas even now.Nov 24 16:01
neighborleethankfullyNov 24 16:01
neighborleeand im very glad it is.Nov 24 16:01
neighborleevery gladNov 24 16:02
neighborleeI saw the article on super computing and was quite pleased ;)Nov 24 16:02
kentmaconsider that creating a linux distro is estimated to be something around US$40-50bn (personally, I think this is low, but there we go).Nov 24 16:02
kentmaso, there's no way that anyone will ever try to develop a new OS to compete with it - how could  you compete with free?Nov 24 16:02
neighborleewhere you get those figuresNov 24 16:03
kentmaThey're published by the Linux Foundation.Nov 24 16:03
neighborleeicNov 24 16:03
kentmaBut there have been other estimates by Universities which have reached similar conclusions.Nov 24 16:04
kentmajust on a kloc basis, it's impossible to compete with a modern linux distro.Nov 24 16:04
kentmaso, the question is not whether Linux will be successful - this is inevitable - the question is more how long Microsoft can keep paying off companies to stop them from installing it on OEM machines, porting software to it, supporting it on media downloads, porting games, and so on.Nov 24 16:05
kentmathis question resolves to "how much cash do Microsoft have, and is it falling or rising"Nov 24 16:05
kentmaand the answer is "loads of cash, but they've been losing it for years".Nov 24 16:06
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neighborleeeven ubuntu and a few others stilll have ways of doing things, that are still showing command line use in faq's..im sure that will trend down but atm to me thats kinda a problematic   thing given linux needs to raise its market share by ,,tons.Nov 24 16:07
neighborleethat people tend to give CLI advice on forums isn't helping.Nov 24 16:07
neighborleeits a mindsetNov 24 16:07
kentmaI think you're missing a point here.  Linux doesn't "need" to grow at all, it will grow because the vendors need to sell computers, and Windows costs too much.  Once pre-installs are out in numbers, all will be fine.Nov 24 16:08
neighborleeI wonder how dell      computers are helping to make linux share market #'s bigger,,if at allNov 24 16:08
kentmadell don't care about Linux share, they care about Dell share...Nov 24 16:09
neighborleeof courseNov 24 16:09
neighborleebut it does count in the grander scheme of making linux popular , and usedNov 24 16:09
kentmaindeed, but you need to expand that thought to the whole "linux market share" argument.Nov 24 16:09
kentmaLinux is already incredibly popular, and will, inevitably, continue to be so.Nov 24 16:09
neighborleewell I sure hope soNov 24 16:10
kentmatomtom, garmin, archos, gamepark, sony all use it on devices, motorola, google, freerunner, samsung all use it on phones, alcatel, ericsson, nortel, all use it in telco equipment...Nov 24 16:10
neighborleebut imho it needs alot more  QA standardsNov 24 16:10
_dougIP Ventures spawn off spinnoff ..Nov 24 16:11
_doughttp://www.rpxcorp.com/team_f...Nov 24 16:11
kentmaneighborlee: what QA standards for what?Nov 24 16:11
neighborleeyes I realize linux succeeds in those areasNov 24 16:12
neighborleeif you check  the  last few releases or so of all major linux brands they haven't been  that problem free I dont thinkNov 24 16:12
neighborleeand the reason imho for that, is lacking QA due to a fractured environmentNov 24 16:13
schestowitztrmanco: Jo Barr (not deceased) replied there to an article from a Microsoft mole, Pete GalliNov 24 16:13
schestowitzGalli now WORKS for Microsoft. They hired the kook.Nov 24 16:13
neighborleethis 'too  many linux distros' isnt a mindset only I came up with btw ;)Nov 24 16:13
neighborleea few other great minds think so tooNov 24 16:14
kentmaneighborlee: the only reason it's possible to have linux used in all these different types of machine is because the whole thing is so modular.Nov 24 16:14
_doug"Amster wouldn't say how much its inaugural members -- IBM and Cisco -- are paying"Nov 24 16:14
_doughttp://www.techflash.com/IBM_Cisco_support...Nov 24 16:14
neighborleeok , obviously JK, but I could not resist,,laughter matters ;)Nov 24 16:14
_doug"The Wall Street Journal reports that Google, H-P, Cisco and others are members.)"Nov 24 16:14
kentmaneighborlee: the price for modularity is that there will be differing development cycles, differing directions and so on, but that's not a bad thing at all.Nov 24 16:14
kentmalook at things the other way around, in the windows world, where the modularity is not inherent, the problems are unbelievable, years of development, millions of new lines of code, and an operating system which is a complete disaster -Nov 24 16:16
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PetoKrausit, indeed, was horribleNov 24 16:16
PetoKrausinstead of doing stuff we were doing group calculationsNov 24 16:17
neighborleeschestowitz, oh yes about mandriva and OO,,I read that, but that doesn't mean mono is gone entirely, just gone from that OO dependency right ?Nov 24 16:17
PetoKraushad i known that, i wouldn't even botherNov 24 16:17
trmancoschestowitz, indeed "He has comprehensively covered Microsoft and its Windows and .Net platforms, as well as the many legal challenges it has faced. He has also focused on Sun Microsystems and its Solaris operating environment, Java and Unix offerings."Nov 24 16:17
trmancoonce again JavaNov 24 16:17
neighborleeschestowitz, ill try to verify that, but I think mandriva gnome 2009 stil has those same mono appsNov 24 16:17
PetoKrausneighborlee: since the case [Vista Capable] is in seattle, and i guess the courts are public - are you gonna go? :PNov 24 16:17
neighborleemaybe, if I have timeNov 24 16:17
neighborleeIm just as willling to get the information second h and ;)Nov 24 16:18
kentmaneighborlee: you'll need a lot of spare time, I suspect...Nov 24 16:18
neighborleeno doubt o_0Nov 24 16:18
kentmaanyway - that was my point...  excessively tight coupling gives the impression that better results can be obtained, however, the model is unstable, and ultimately results in unmaintainable code.Nov 24 16:19
neighborleewell if windows was such a disaster , I doubt my other anal friends would be using it.. I'll give you the lock'in factor but thats not all of it..familiarity is another im happy to concede that, but there are other factors to consider too and linux does bear some responsbility there its not without sin :))Nov 24 16:20
kentmaor, to put it another way, choice is the best way of ensuring modularity, and the best way of ensuring long-term stability and maintainability for code.  Removal of choice provides a brief period of stability and improved "qa", but in fairly short order, the monolith collapses as the dependencies become too complex for anyone to grasp.Nov 24 16:21
kentmaneighborlee: windows vista *is* a disaster.Nov 24 16:21
neighborleehardlyNov 24 16:22
neighborleemaybe for some,,some hardware , yaddaNov 24 16:22
neighborleebut hardly a mess,,I am using it right now.Nov 24 16:22
kentmaneighborlee: it won't even run on the *only* growing part of the market - the netbook.Nov 24 16:22
neighborleethough Ive altered a few things yes..to make it slightly more snappier.Nov 24 16:22
neighborleebut yeah , on release it was not perfect,I did have some trouble with m y audio driver ,onboard realtek ac97Nov 24 16:23
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kentmaDSG lost millions by stocking it, and then discovering that they'd given Microsoft the opportunity to claim millions of sales which in reality only sit on the shelves of their warehouses and shops - nobody wants it.Nov 24 16:23
neighborleewell :)Nov 24 16:24
neighborleein this instance , M$ shot itself in the foot im afraid ;)Nov 24 16:24
neighborleethe did not listen to m any to execs.Nov 24 16:24
neighborleegood for linux ;)   lolNov 24 16:24
neighborleeand macNov 24 16:24
kentmaIt was such a poor strategic choice that Microsoft had to un-EOL XP in order to try to win some of the new Netbook market, which was 100% linux for many months.Nov 24 16:24
neighborleecorrectNov 24 16:25
kentmaWindows shows poor market share in devices, a dreadful performance in mobile, virtually nothing on ARM, the biggest selling architecture on the planet, more or less nothing in telco boxes and/or routers...Nov 24 16:25
schestowitzneighborlee: yes, from OOo 0_oNov 24 16:27
schestowitzIn KDENov 24 16:29
neighborleekentma, it would not hurt my feelings if linux market share shot up in desktop but I wont hold my breath in the short term anyway ;)Nov 24 16:31
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PetoKrausbloody hyell!Nov 24 16:31
neighborleeschestowitz, good grief no winder,,they based it o go-oo build !Nov 24 16:31
neighborleePetoKraus, lolNov 24 16:32
PetoKrausthe net just fellNov 24 16:32
neighborleehehNov 24 16:32
PetoKraus... like, straight downNov 24 16:32
neighborleesky falling my little chicken ;)Nov 24 16:32
neighborleehehNov 24 16:32
PetoKrausi couldn't even ping my wireless routerNov 24 16:32
neighborleeo_0Nov 24 16:32
PetoKrausthe router didn't restart thoNov 24 16:32
kentmaneighborlee: the 1970s desktop view is very dead.  Linux is around 40% of the netbook market already, though.Nov 24 16:33
kentmaneighborlee: are you familiar with the "tipping point" concept from Malcolm Gladwell?Nov 24 16:34
neighborleenopeNov 24 16:35
neighborleeno time, no time@@Nov 24 16:35
neighborleesorry another episodic borrow ;))hehehNov 24 16:35
neighborleethis time from voyager ;)Nov 24 16:36
neighborleeanyhoo--Nov 24 16:36
kentmaah, okay - basically, it's more socio-economics.  He's written a book which is a fairly quick read about this.Nov 24 16:36
neighborleeahNov 24 16:36
kentmaAhh, voyager, the ship which breaks down every episode, uses transporter and holo-deck technology to fix everything, so long as there's no interference.  Oh yeah, and has shuttles from the 23rd Century which can't get through a storm without failing... I know the one!Nov 24 16:37
neighborleeI still say linux could use having ONE distro to rule them all!Nov 24 16:37
kentmaneighborlee: did you read my remarks regarding tight-coupling and the problems that causes?Nov 24 16:37
neighborleehaNov 24 16:37
neighborleeyesNov 24 16:37
kentmaneighborlee: then perhaps you can see that a distro optimised for a mobile phone will be different to one for a supercomputer?Nov 24 16:38
neighborleeeven windows has differing OS"s based on the hardware, so that doens't say muchNov 24 16:38
kentmaneighborlee: but linux uses the *same* kernel... this is critical!Nov 24 16:38
neighborleethats becoming more standards lately yes, which im glad to seeNov 24 16:40
neighborleebut I doubt all major distros use the same one..or do they...maybe fianally they do ?Nov 24 16:40
kentmaneighborlee: linux has pretty much always been one kernel - there have been occasional branches, but the code base remains the same.Nov 24 16:40
neighborleebut   beyond that, there are many differences, some huge some not ;)Nov 24 16:40
kentmathey remain the same code base - the windows ones are not.Nov 24 16:41
neighborleehm ic..didn't know this.Nov 24 16:41
PetoKrauswell, great example is E17Nov 24 16:42
PetoKrauswhich has plugins to make it work on treo 650 / freerunner etcNov 24 16:42
PetoKrausit's just a module, but it changes quite a lot of the appearance (fullscreen menus, etc)Nov 24 16:42
PetoKraus(don't have a treo phone, can't try )Nov 24 16:43
neighborleehmmmmNov 24 16:43
neighborleeyes Im big into E17..I Like that it gives eye candy for those that like it without big price of 3d driverNov 24 16:43
neighborleewhich Im going to install soon as I find time to deal with itNov 24 16:43
neighborleeon top of lenny which atm is working great btw ;)Nov 24 16:44
PetoKrauswell, i'm using lenny on my serverNov 24 16:44
neighborlee:)Nov 24 16:44
PetoKrausit's good for a system you don't care aboutNov 24 16:44
PetoKrausyou just install, and it worksNov 24 16:44
neighborleemy 3d driver is slow'ish atm gotta look into that one....Nov 24 16:44
PetoKrausneighborlee: card?Nov 24 16:44
Omar87So, os it true that Slashdot has some stuff to do with Microsoft?Nov 24 16:48
Omar87is* it true...Nov 24 16:48
neighborleePetoKraus, I have no idea,but no its not the card,,,maybe a bad driver I dunno yetNov 24 16:53
neighborleePetoKraus, ie: 8800GTXNov 24 16:53
PetoKrausnvidia :/Nov 24 16:53
neighborleeyesNov 24 16:54
neighborleeand it works fine  here in vista , though I had to finally get 3 gigs of ram for even that to be true LOLNov 24 16:54
neighborleeI mean OS wise, not the card.Nov 24 16:54
neighborleeand it works fine in mandiva livecd..actuallyNov 24 16:55
kentmaneighborlee: the point is that nobody could afford to redevelop another kernel in the traditional, proprietary, way, so we're kind of stuck with the current set for the time being, like it or not.Nov 24 16:55
neighborlee ive never seen such a fast OS as the mandriva livecd,,2009 I think, but then its mono laced so I wont go near itNov 24 16:55
neighborleesadlyNov 24 16:55
neighborleeschestowitz, did you mean the manddriva oo issue means mono is gone entirely or what,,sorry if I m issed something..I have a few tabs open here in xchat ;)Nov 24 16:56
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schestowitzOmar87: yesNov 24 16:59
schestowitzSearch BN for detailsNov 24 16:59
schestowitzneighborlee: they ought to use OOo. We're working at it (all of us)... you need to emphasise that it's an evil fork of Microsoft/Novell.Nov 24 17:00
trmancohttp://ubuntuforums.org/showthread...Nov 24 17:04
neighborleeschestowitz, yesNov 24 17:11
neighborleekentma, sounds fairNov 24 17:12
neighborleethough I know next to squat about kernels etal ;)Nov 24 17:12
kentmaneighborlee: you don't need to - consider this - the current best estimate is that it would cost around US$1.4bn to develop a linux, at *today's* prices.Nov 24 17:13
kentmamost companies run at a margin of, say, about 5-10%.  Assume 10%, then development would consume revenue of US$14bn.Nov 24 17:14
kentmathat's with *nothing* else going on, so a real company would need to have other revenue in order to make a profit, too.Nov 24 17:14
kentmathen, they'd have to port applications to it in order to create a new distro, even if they re-use the existing applications set, rather than create a new one.Nov 24 17:15
kentmaConsider that Microsoft tried this with Vista, and it's been a resounding failure - who would risk doing it again?  And that was developing from an existing codebase (nt5.1), not starting from scratch.Nov 24 17:16
_dougLinux recipe book ..Nov 24 17:21
_doughttp://opensource.sfsu.edu/node/579Nov 24 17:21
_dougI wonder do IV now own all the recipes, as they are now running on a machine ?Nov 24 17:21
_doug"A patent-eligible process must both be physical in nature and must produce a useful, concrete and tangible result"Nov 24 17:23
_doughttp://www.groklaw.net/article.php?st...Nov 24 17:23
_doughttp://dsl.org/cookbook/cookbook_...Nov 24 17:23
_dougThe Linux Cookbook ..Nov 24 17:24
_dougsomething for seller_liar: "Tips and Techniques for Everyday Use"Nov 24 17:25
_douggood tip: if you are new to Open Source, there are facilities available locally that may be of use to you before you jump in, they're called libraries, and have a number of usefull utilities that may help advance your knowlege, they're called books ... !!!Nov 24 17:29
twitter./ covers Groklaw's Bilski opinion.  http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?si...Nov 24 17:34
twitter twitter writes "P.J.'s concludes her look at the Bilski decision: 'you'll recall patent lawyer Gene Quinn immediately wrote that it was bad news for Microsoft, that "much of the Microsoft patent portfolio has gone up in smoke" because, as Quinn's partner John White pointed out to him, "Microsoft doesn't make machines." Not just Microsoft. His analysis was that many software patents that had issued prior to Bilski, depending onNov 24 17:35
twitter:)Nov 24 17:35
schestowitzDon't listen on lawyers on patents, esp. patent lawsyers.Nov 24 17:37
schestowitzThe funny thing is that some JUDGES has vested interests.Nov 24 17:37
schestowitzIt's weird how BN grew since the protest in India.Nov 24 17:38
PetoKrausdoh, ppl want EXT4 as default in ubuntuNov 24 17:38
trmancoas an optionNov 24 17:42
trmancoit is betterNov 24 17:42
trmancoand saferNov 24 17:42
twitterThe Groklaw opinion quotes a lot of lawyers, especially tax lawyers who hate software patents.Nov 24 17:43
twitterBig in India is really big.  They have more than a billion people, right?Nov 24 17:44
PetoKraustrmanco: i am talking about people wanting it as DEFAULTNov 24 17:44
PetoKrausnot as an option. Obviously, it should be an optionNov 24 17:44
twitterIs ext4 ready?  File systems were easy to chose when I installed Ubuntu last week.Nov 24 17:47
schestowitztwitter: Heh. No billion, no... but it's not about India. That action of their was further endorsement of the site as a campaign.Nov 24 17:47
twitterYeah, the incident was ugly.Nov 24 17:47
PetoKraustwitter: it is ready according to linus. It is ready according to fedora. though, the deployment, especially on / partition is troublesome - you can't boot from ext4 until you have grub2 up and running...Nov 24 17:48
twitteris grub2 ready?Nov 24 17:49
twitterI've got version 0.97 on Lenny.Nov 24 17:49
twitterPJ also mentions the Novell deal in her assessment of the Bilski decision.Nov 24 17:50
PetoKrausit's not. it's under active development. That's why i think it shouldn't be defaultNov 24 17:50
twitterHa ha, I used the M$ death watch, http://slashdot.org/~twitter/jo... for my home page on the story, "Groklaw Says Microsoft Patent Portfolio Now Worthless"Nov 24 18:13
schestowitztwitter: in what context?Nov 24 18:19
twitterIf you bother to click on the "twitter" in "twitter writes" you get the death watch, which contains this item and others.Nov 24 18:25
schestowitzhehe. http://www.noooxml.org/forum/t-107742/buy-t...Nov 24 18:34
trmancoext4 should have a some more years of usage to really know if it is ready or notNov 24 18:37
trmanco-a*Nov 24 18:37
schestowitzASUS CEO Says Linux Netbook Returns On Par With Windows < http://ostatic.com/177078-blog/asus-ceo... >. people will just remember the FUD though (4-1)Nov 24 18:39
neighborleegreat news linux is making inroads at leastNov 24 18:40
schestowitzIt is.Nov 24 18:41
schestowitzKeep up the good work, neighborlee Nov 24 18:41
schestowitzThe only barrier now is FUD and legalize... Microsoft's last resort.Nov 24 18:41
neighborleeey, I love foss so hey its no big thing, I do so gladly and in fulll honorNov 24 18:42
schestowitzBN touches on that stuff almost exclusively.Nov 24 18:42
schestowitzI still advocate elsewhere... but the KEY things are not technical merit.s... Microsoft punches below the belt.Nov 24 18:42
schestowitzApple mostly ignores (neglects) Linux. so it's no big deal. The problem is that they promote things like DRM.Nov 24 18:44
neighborleeyesNov 24 18:44
neighborleeI b adly want a android ;)Nov 24 18:44
schestowitzIt's philosophically adverse to FOSSNov 24 18:44
neighborleeof course :)Nov 24 18:44
schestowitzWhich means that Apple or a proponent of Freedom suppression... whether it admits this or not.Nov 24 18:45
neighborleeall while usig bsd,,ironic ;0-Nov 24 18:45
neighborleeor some form of it,,Nov 24 18:45
schestowitzKey work: usingNov 24 18:51
schestowitzA certain company in your state does that too.Nov 24 18:51
neighborleeschestowitz, LOL, wow jose really went at it didn't he....woah I didnt see that coming :))Nov 24 18:52
schestowitzYes, if I carried on I'd not be doing any posts.Nov 24 18:53
neighborleelolNov 24 18:53
schestowitzI now realise why PJ does a post a day, having done up to 5 in the past. Comments are important too when you get attacked.Nov 24 18:53
neighborleethere is thatNov 24 18:53
neighborleeof cousreNov 24 18:53
schestowitzTell those barbarians to sod off: http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2008/1...Nov 24 18:55
schestowitzWhat's with the market trying to devour itself? It's communism.Nov 24 18:56
schestowitzNice game... http://beranger.org/index.php?page=diary&... ... how long before it comes to PS3?Nov 24 18:58
twitterThe source article with EEEPC interview is better than the other piece praising MSI Wind http://blog.laptopmag.com/asus-ceo-reveals-eee-p...Nov 24 18:59
schestowitzThe bigger lie is still the one people remember.Nov 24 19:00
schestowitzSame with OLPC... Microsoft is using its talking points to spread stigmas.Nov 24 19:01
*kentma has quit ("Leaving.")Nov 24 19:08
schestowitz8000 guides milestone reached...  http://tuxmobil.org/mylaptops.htmlNov 24 19:11
PetoKraustwitter: i like how all of your comments, bar 3, are "-1 troll / -1 flamebait"Nov 24 19:17
schestowitzhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/enterta... Still no GNU/Linux support and still... DRM. Can Auntie be saved? Or is it a lost cause like ISO? Think before shooting an injured deer.Nov 24 19:17
schestowitzPetoKraus / twitter: it means he's *watched*.Nov 24 19:18
schestowitzIt's the same for me in Digg.Nov 24 19:18
PetoKrauswell, dohNov 24 19:18
schestowitzNo matter if I give a polite and accurate answers. Hyenas don't speak English.Nov 24 19:18
schestowitzHaha. Got to love this headline: http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/20... : Microsoft in the Land of the MafiaNov 24 19:20
schestowitzJust like in politics... the 'elites' say to those who fund them to sod off while they swap money.Nov 24 19:20
neighborleeschestowitz, imagine that...they might think they are clever, but in the end as more of this type of info gets out, they will lose  bigtime ..Nov 24 19:22
neighborleedishonesty is not what the public wants,,bush lost, mccain lost,,and so in time will M$ ;)Nov 24 19:22
schestowitzYes, I write about this.Nov 24 19:25
schestowitzThe crime should be considered a BIG thing for FOSS even if it doesn't mention FOSS. It's the type of stuff standing in the way.Nov 24 19:25
schestowitzMicrosoft = payments, licences, bribe, etc. That's why tenders and bodies like ISO get easily corrupted.Nov 24 19:26
schestowitziPhone 'freed' from Apple... iPhone 2.2 Update Gets Jailbroken < http://www.pcworld.com/article/1... >Nov 24 19:30
schestowitzThis is like Shuttleworth and trolls... "we'll respond when the issue arises (i.e. when it's too late)"... Greenpeace: Companies Not Serious About Climate Change < http://www.pcworld.com/article/154401... >Nov 24 19:31
schestowitzneighborlee: Relax, Wii Motion Controls Don't Foster Violence < http://www.pcworld.com/article/154383/wi... > .. I know the writer of this...Nov 24 19:32
neighborleein general of course they dontNov 24 19:32
neighborleebut I do not like it when Nintendo 'accepts' very ultral violent games..its just idiocy.Nov 24 19:33
schestowitzThe can sell "Nintendo Wii Black".. or WaackNov 24 19:34
neighborleebut yeah..Nov 24 19:34
neighborleeits clear , the wiimote was creaed , at least initially for clean fun, not gore  hacks ;)Nov 24 19:35
schestowitzThey have some sophisticated 3D technology... unlike the brute gory stuff.Nov 24 19:36
schestowitzBTW, last week I set my desktop such that I'm trapped inside the cube.  Compiz is fun!Nov 24 19:37
neighborleeLOLNov 24 19:37
neighborleeI should like to see this..hahahaNov 24 19:37
neighborleehmm,  shades of phanton zone ey ? ;)))Nov 24 19:37
neighborleephantom < ^Nov 24 19:38
schestowitzWait... screenie.Nov 24 19:43
schestowitzHmmmm... import -delay 5 screenshot-2008.jpg ... it leaves me having to wait for the snapshot, but I can't rotate the imageNov 24 19:46
schestowitzOK, done. Fun with Mandriva: http://schestowitz.com/temp/screensho...Nov 24 19:51
neighborlee:)Nov 24 19:52
trmancow00tNov 24 19:53
trmancobroKen screen :-PNov 24 19:53
schestowitzHa! Finally. http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?i...Nov 24 19:57
trmancohttp://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s...Nov 24 20:01
schestowitz"Speaking for myself, I'd have to say I feel a lot less threatened by Microsoft than I did a year ago. Don't you? I can't help but wonder if there ever would have been a "patent peace" deal between Novell and Microsoft if Bilski had been decided earlier."Nov 24 20:02
schestowitzWho said there's no money in Microwindows' security mess? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technol...Nov 24 20:05
trmancohttp://www.cgisecurity.net/2008/11/article-w...Nov 24 20:10
schestowitzTHis one seems like a hoax: http://www.postchronicle.com/news/breakin...Nov 24 20:10
trmancoSpamhaus: Microsoft Now 5th Most Spam Friendly ISP: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/securit...Nov 24 20:10
schestowitzI give up. :-) Can't find it. http://www.iphonesavior.com/2008/11/tina-sherman-...Nov 24 20:10
schestowitztrmanco: yes, I know.Nov 24 20:11
schestowitzI was going to post this later.Nov 24 20:11
schestowitzActually, give me 10 minutes and I'll post it.Nov 24 20:11
*schestowitz proofingNov 24 20:11
trmanco:-PNov 24 20:11
neighborleeschestowitz, must have  felt good to see the crash wasn't just you ;)Nov 24 20:15
trmancohttp://searchengineland.com/microsoft-...Nov 24 20:21
trmancolol, time for fresh start to stop all the bad reputation that Live has, they will probably market Kumo as 'a new search engine'Nov 24 20:22
schestowitzOK, done: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/1...Nov 24 20:28
schestowitzVery long.Nov 24 20:28
schestowitzneighborlee: yes, it's good when others reproduce.Nov 24 20:29
schestowitzI think I've had the problem since 2004 (KDE 3.1 for me)Nov 24 20:29
schestowitztrmanco: they always rebrand to make people comeNov 24 20:29
trmancoI don't think they had any success in thatNov 24 20:29
schestowitzRebrand/redesign/overhaul/whateverNov 24 20:29
schestowitzI wrote about it in BN just 2-3 weeks ago, IIRC.Nov 24 20:30
schestowitzThey should start with "A". It leave room for more choice. They can change names and invest people to a "new and improved" search engines called "A", "B" [...] "AA", "AB"... "GO"..."GOO".... maybe they'll catch Google in the year 100000000000000000000000Nov 24 20:31
trmancololNov 24 20:32
schestowitzSomeone need to explain to SweatyB that not the name is the problem; the SE is cr*p. UTTER s*Nov 24 20:32
schestowitzThe GUI makes it worse. Slow, clumsy... when I come to think of it... it's like Microsoft's native s/w...Nov 24 20:33
schestowitzThey used to have hedious scrollbars in the SE back in 2005 or so........ HHHHOOOOOOOOOOOORRID.Nov 24 20:33
schestowitzEuropeana digital library launches - and almost immediately falls over < http://www.heise.de/english/newsticke... >Nov 24 20:38
schestowitzMoving away from McBush: International domain names get a bit closer and more European-friendly < http://www.heise.de/english/newsticke... >Nov 24 20:39
trmancohttp://blog.foppiano.org/2008/11/2...Nov 24 20:41
schestowitzI like Thunderbird.Nov 24 20:43
trmancosome more Evolution stuff: http://dev.osso.nl/herman/blog/?p=372Nov 24 20:43
trmancome tooNov 24 20:43
trmancohttp://yokozar.livejournal.com/19511.htmlNov 24 20:46
schestowitzWatch the comment here: http://extensionofmymind.blogspot.com... Orwellian revisionist used to daemonise Anivar. :-oNov 24 20:46
trmancothe power of free softwareNov 24 20:46
trmancoI'm going to drop a comment saying "thanks", it the least I can doNov 24 20:46
trmanco"I do this for free.  I've been working on Ubuntu and Wine for about 5 years now, and sometimes when I'm low on money I find myself asking if it's really worth it.  I struggle with a part time job to make rent, and dedicate the equivalent of a full-time job volunteering for Ubuntu; meanwhile, my consultant friends charge 150 an hour to format/reinstall Windows."Nov 24 20:47
trmanco"I ask myself if it's worth it.  Looking at those user stats, I have no doubt that it is.  Even if I'm only making a stick of gum's worth of improvement.  Sometimes it's a thankless job, but then again charity usually is."Nov 24 20:47
*_doug has quit ()Nov 24 20:47
twitter trmanco, yep, that's the Groklaw article I was talking about.  Glad you like it, Roy.Nov 24 20:51
schestowitztrmanco: interesting comments. I'm the same.Nov 24 20:52
twitter" PetoKraus: twitter: i like how all of your comments, bar 3, are -1 troll / -1 flamebait", I don't.  But their little attempt at censorship has not been effective.  http://slashdot.org/~tw...Nov 24 20:54
schestowitzSilly Munchkins. They draw attention to you.Nov 24 20:57
PetoKrausit basically means you've got at least a bit of truthNov 24 21:00
PetoKrausSince my youth (:P), I've been taught, that you should eat what your body wants. Especially when you are sick. Then, there is a slight problem - 1) what if you don't have apetite for anything at all, 2) what if there's nothing in the fridge which would satisfy your insatiable craving for X, while having only €£2.20 on your account till friday?Nov 24 21:02
PetoKrausi could use a glass of scotch.Nov 24 21:02
schestowitzDoes scotch compile with wine?Nov 24 21:04
PetoKrausi wouldn't mix themNov 24 21:06
twitterAlmost all of the comments for the Groklaw story are crap flood, damage control and denial of the obvious.Nov 24 21:06
schestowitzReally? I haven't looked. Do they heckle? In GL or /.?Nov 24 21:07
twitterThere's some GL heckling but it's mostly denial.  M$'s patent threats are "hot air, they don't need them, this is not a big deal" bullshit.Nov 24 21:14
twitterSome really old trolls came out for it.  Like this guy http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?si...Nov 24 21:16
twitterIf you go visit him, he's all about promoting M$, Silverblight and associated crap.Nov 24 21:16
twitterhttp://slashdot.org/~Ed+AvisNov 24 21:17
twitternasty old troll.Nov 24 21:17
twitterSeems to like beating up his friends, http://membled.com/kenpo/, if that's really his homepage.Nov 24 21:18
schestowitzI see.....Nov 24 21:23
schestowitzIt looks harmful based on the URLs you give here, but Microsoft *does* have people that comment-shill.Nov 24 21:23
schestowitzSome people who advocate Silver Lies in comments are evangelists on the payroll.Nov 24 21:23
twitterAvis has bugged me before, I'm looking back through his history to see why.Nov 24 21:30
twitterAs for the rest of the discussion, it's buried under a "turning machine" crap flood.Nov 24 21:31
twitterbblNov 24 21:31
schestowitzHere's why: http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/1...Nov 24 21:31
schestowitz:-( Palm purges staff, chops products < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/1... >Nov 24 21:34
schestowitzIBM gets a little less free (CDDL): http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/24/ibm_...Nov 24 21:34
trmancoFree Information, Disaster for Content Owners, Gold Mine for Google: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Free-Information-D...Nov 24 21:34
trmancowhat is Ballnux?Nov 24 21:38
trmancosorry for my ignorance :(Nov 24 21:38
schestowitzhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/24/st... '“The court appreciates that there are severe demands on Mr Ballmer’s time; however, a busy schedule cannot ‘shield’ an executive from discovery,” said the judge./Nov 24 21:38
schestowitzBallnux=suse|turbolinux|*spire|xandrosNov 24 21:38
schestowitzBallmer Linux=BallnuxNov 24 21:38
trmancoog, coolNov 24 21:40
trmancooh*Nov 24 21:40
trmancoa Ballmer made virtual distroNov 24 21:41
schestowitzIt's worth seeing what you can scoop from the unsealed E-mails: http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/mic...Nov 24 21:41
schestowitzThere's lot there that show which shills the Vole speaks toNov 24 21:41
schestowitzhttp://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/new...Nov 24 21:43
schestowitzIf it ain't broken (BSD), don't fix it.Nov 24 21:44
MinceRbsd is pretty broken though :>Nov 24 21:46
MinceR(bsd init/rc and stuff like that)Nov 24 21:46
schestowitzIPV6 news: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/s... "Linux Foundation Workgroup Tackles Federal Mandate for Next-Generation Internet Protocol"Nov 24 21:47
schestowitzI hear that Microsoft just want DRM/NAC in its stack/channel though.Nov 24 21:47
schestowitzGaining leverage by abandoning de facto standard code?Nov 24 21:47
MinceRwe've never seen that beforeNov 24 21:48
trmancohttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=artic...Nov 24 21:52
trmancothe conclusion says everythingNov 24 21:52
schestowitzUS companies move to Asia: http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/new... ( Micron might be abandoning the US )Nov 24 21:54
schestowitzYahoo dissolving? Yahoo sells bargain shopping site Kelkoo < http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/200... >Nov 24 21:58
schestowitzThey should give away Zimbra too... put it in safer hands.Nov 24 21:58
schestowitzRe: Endershill: "So it seems that he has email access to Ballmer while Ballmer was CEO of Microsoft. And the exchange seems to imply that Enderle had some kind of business relationship with Microsoft. Which kind of contradicts his claimed position as an "independent" industry "analyst".'Nov 24 22:17
schestowitz"Particularly during the SCO debacle where he repeatedly claimed that SCO was correct about "stolen" code." http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?lts...Nov 24 22:17
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schestowitzTim Anderson who got a Vista 7 laptop just wrote a review of Ubuntu: http://www.whatpc.co.uk/computeractive/featu...Nov 24 22:31
schestowitzKumo... same rubbish SE... with a new wallpaper ( http://www.pcworld.com/article/15440... ), just like Vista 7.Nov 24 22:56
schestowitzhttp://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?page_id=425 "I have no business ventures that are sponsored by/funded by Microsoft or any of its partners or competitors. I have not accepted any consulting funds from Microsoft, any of its partners or its competitors for any studies/projects."Nov 24 22:59
schestowitzWorth digging into these E-mails if time permits... http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1737Nov 24 23:00
twitterYou are friendly and email Mary Jo Foley?Nov 24 23:10
twitterShe needs to ask why Vista did not work with Intel graphics chips in the first place, when the same work with GNU/Linux.Nov 24 23:11
twitterMy theory is that they drove Intel out of the market for GPL'ing the drivers.  The "Vista Capable" scandal is not that they lied about Intel chipsets working, it's that the 800 lb gorilla dictating what chipsets would survive and which would fail.Nov 24 23:12
schestowitzMicrosoft's code is poorly designs (monolithic, not modular), so it's bloated. Vista is another big step to oblivion. People won't buy dual cores during a depression.Nov 24 23:14
twitterSure they will.  If they buy computers, many will be dual core because it does make some things better.  It's just that dual and quad cores will have to fit in the under $300 budget bin.Nov 24 23:21
twitterAll that bloat, however, does not explain why Vista can't run on Intel graphics sets when you can play games with the same under GNU/Linux or XP.Nov 24 23:22
twitterIt would be a good question for someone like Mary who claims that she wants to get to the bottom of things.Nov 24 23:22
twitterHere's something completely different.  Sara Palin pardons a turkey and then lets herself be filmed like this.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-kjM1asH-8Nov 24 23:24
MinceRgnNov 24 23:33
neighborleetwitter, yeah its all over the news..nasty nastyNov 24 23:34
schestowitzHmmmm... wrong direction? Why I’ve switched from Thunderbird to Evolution < http://opencomputer.net/2008/11/23/why-ive-swi... >Nov 24 23:36
twitterShould have gone to Kontact.Nov 24 23:38
schestowitzPardons?Nov 24 23:41
schestowitzI don't see it.Nov 24 23:41
schestowitzI was expecting her to do something stupid.Nov 24 23:41
twitterShe was talking, that's dumb enough.  Letting them shoot that camera angle and looking over her shoulder to smile is icing on the cake.Nov 24 23:42
schestowitzWatch the comments.Nov 24 23:42
schestowitzWell, that's McBush camp... send them soldats to Iraq... back to Wichita in a bag.Nov 24 23:43
twitterdinner timeNov 24 23:43
schestowitzTurkey?Nov 24 23:44
neighborleeOMG , what a PR nightmare :)Nov 24 23:45
schestowitzDon't miss the RMS links about the UK and US...Nov 24 23:45
schestowitzneighborlee: PR nightmare? She's not running anymore.Nov 24 23:45
schestowitzI can only imagine how women and kids will react to this...Nov 24 23:45
twittermexi.  Spiced ground beef, refried black beans, chopped onions, tomato, cheese beer tortillas.  Turkey comes in a couple of days.Nov 24 23:45
twitterMy wife was not amused by the turkey but it was hard for her to have a lower opinion.Nov 24 23:46
neighborleeexactly..,but there is no verification she wont try to run again for something laterNov 24 23:46
neighborleetwitter, there is thatNov 24 23:46
schestowitzTrue, that's ammunition.Nov 24 23:46
twitterShe's done and will be lucky if she does not end up in jail for some of her pork barrel building projects.Nov 24 23:47
schestowitzIt's stuff like this that makes me think of becoming a vegetarian, which would be hard (I'm into fitness and all... almost 100KG)Nov 24 23:47
schestowitzPork barrel building projects???Nov 24 23:47
twitterShe built some crazy bridge an ice hockey rink and other stuff.Nov 24 23:48
twitterStandard fare but they got Ted Stevens with his hand in the pot.Nov 24 23:49
schestowitzYes, I thought about him.Nov 24 23:49
schestowitzHe's canned, ain't he. But he doesn't have much life ahead of him...Nov 24 23:49
*seller_liar (i=bd121e14@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0f1a64df0e62bf89) has joined #boycottnovellNov 24 23:50
schestowitzHe reminds me of Novell.Nov 24 23:50
twitterI used to think Edwin Edwards was corrupt.  The rest of the country took him as a role model.Nov 24 23:50
schestowitzThey bribed for the Wintel Games.Nov 24 23:50
twittergot to goNov 24 23:50
schestowitzHehe. WinterNov 24 23:50
schestowitzMcCain had criticized earmarks from Palin < http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-... >Nov 24 23:50
neighborleeschestowitz, its only a mindset..I was raised on meat and potatoes, but my mindset switched after leaving  home and meeting people whom gave me info and let me decided on my own..it was not a overnight decision I can tell you that, such things take a great deal of will power and mindset to overcome after many years of ,,training ;)Nov 24 23:51
schestowitzWe'll all have toNov 24 23:52
schestowitzFish is running out and the population keeps growing, AKAIKNov 24 23:52
schestowitzSome of my friends (couples) choose not to have children for various reasons.Nov 24 23:52
seller_liarIt is necessary to educate peopleNov 24 23:52
schestowitzIt is, seller_liar Nov 24 23:53
seller_liar1 equates to 100 children rich poorNov 24 23:53
schestowitzYou mean 1 rich to 100 poor?Nov 24 23:53
schestowitzLike the ratio in this world?Nov 24 23:53
seller_liarBut people agree that the rich have childrenNov 24 23:53
schestowitzNot always...Nov 24 23:53
seller_liaryes, because they buy more cars, but the world sujamNov 24 23:53
schestowitzThough I think the rich get divorced more, i.e. get more kids.. maybe.Nov 24 23:53
schestowitzThat's a totally separate issue... distribution of wealthNov 24 23:54
seller_liarAnd in today's society is allowed only have 1 childNov 24 23:54
schestowitzWhere?Nov 24 23:54
seller_liarNo, because rich cost more in the worldNov 24 23:54
seller_liarSujam spend more and more the worldNov 24 23:54
seller_liarThey are more costly to society as a wholeNov 24 23:54
schestowitzAs far as I know, the rules in China are not even obeyedNov 24 23:54
schestowitzBesides, with wars looming, families fear having just one child.Nov 24 23:55
seller_liarI know, but in theory should be wellNov 24 23:55
seller_liarShould be wellNov 24 23:55
seller_liarIt must be soNov 24 23:55
schestowitzIs there any written theory written on birth rates?Nov 24 23:55
schestowitzI'm aware of one that says that developing nations will have greater population and birth if health and food permits.Nov 24 23:55
seller_liarNo, but I think Japan is so strange the fullNov 24 23:56
schestowitzBased on something my dad read and explained to me anyway...Nov 24 23:56
seller_liarJapan has many peopleNov 24 23:56
seller_liarWhy?Nov 24 23:56
schestowitzI don't know.Nov 24 23:56
seller_liarExpectation of life?Nov 24 23:56
schestowitzThey must rely on imports, I'd imagine.Nov 24 23:56
schestowitzThey used to exploit China... made them slavesNov 24 23:56
seller_liarJapan did not use condoms before the warNov 24 23:56
seller_liarAlso in BtasilNov 24 23:56
seller_liarIn Japan, Brazilian slaves are called dekasseguiNov 24 23:57
schestowitzIn Japan??Nov 24 23:57
seller_liarThe big problem isNov 24 23:57
seller_liarVery complex systems that sujamNov 24 23:58
seller_liarSystems that pollute the environmentNov 24 23:58
schestowitzIf the population can't regulate numbers, nature will.Nov 24 23:58
seller_liarObsolecencia scheduledNov 24 23:58
schestowitzThat's the fear.. either floods, hungers, or wars.Nov 24 23:58
seller_liarWindowZ Vizta egNov 24 23:58
schestowitzHungry people haven't a chace but to steal or attack (or be killed)Nov 24 23:58
seller_liarDo you spend more money on hardwareNov 24 23:59
schestowitzThan what?Nov 24 23:59
seller_liarVista makes the user spend more money on hardware I meanNov 24 23:59
schestowitzI never touch Windows/Mac OSNov 24 23:59
seller_liarSorry automatic translationNov 24 23:59
schestowitzseller_liar: watch Wintel collusionNov 24 23:59

Recent Techrights' Posts

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