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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: January 30th, 2009 - Part 2

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schestowitzhttp://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?l...Jan 30 19:14
wasabiI agree with the first part of that first sentence.Jan 30 19:15
wasabiCrawl back into your hole. If you wantJan 30 19:15
wasabito know why Linux is less prevalent onJan 30 19:15
wasabinetbooks now that it was when netbooksJan 30 19:15
wasabiemerged, look no further thanJan 30 19:15
wasabiboycottnovell.comJan 30 19:15
schestowitzThey get trolls in LTJan 30 19:15
schestowitzThat troll from LT also trolled BNJan 30 19:15
schestowitzSome guy @hotmail.comJan 30 19:16
wasabiI'm disagreeing with that post.Jan 30 19:16
schestowitzWhen Hackers Are Funny < http://blog.datamation.com/blog/20... >Jan 30 19:42
schestowitzDell for Linux phones?? http://www.pcworld.com/article/158624/dell_to_ma...Jan 30 19:44
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schestowitzI always feel as though I type it all too fast (on the go), which compromises quality. Then again, there is so much stuff to cover, so, you know... might as well get on with the content and worry less about the details.Jan 30 20:05
schestowitzThis one took a long time to do, but I eventually got all the details right: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/30/micr...Jan 30 20:06
schestowitzCan anyone proofread with me? Please?Jan 30 20:06
twitterHere's a funny one.  M$ sues former employee for "spying".  http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/39...Jan 30 20:06
twitterSo much for M$'s "document security"Jan 30 20:07
twitterDRM Failure.Jan 30 20:07
schestowitztwitter: can you read the aboveJan 30 20:11
schestowitzIt's worse than spying. Read it and be wowedJan 30 20:11
twitterAm reading now.  wow indeed.Jan 30 20:12
twitterI sent you the last link because people were talking up DRM as a way to keep corporate secrets.  It should be apparent from this suit that M$'s DRM failed to protect them.  The older case is classic and probably how M$ shut down the big GNU/Linux thrust at the end of the 90s.Jan 30 20:14
schestowitztwitter: I have more on DRM tooJan 30 20:19
schestowitzI could use your helpJan 30 20:19
schestowitzCould you extract the relevant text from these 3? http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index...Jan 30 20:20
schestowitzThe Gutmann paper is less relevant to this (mostly Vista), but the rest need to be exposed.Jan 30 20:21
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schestowitzSwiss police spy marijuana field with Google Earth < http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-technology/sw... >Jan 30 20:33
twitterI'll have a look at it.Jan 30 20:35
PetoKrausnice articleJan 30 20:36
PetoKrausit does not surprise meJan 30 20:36
schestowitzHehe. Check out Gates' fright of Linux drivers here: http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/u...Jan 30 20:37
PetoKrausbut it's good to have the dataJan 30 20:37
schestowitzYes, data is needed for legal action for exampleJan 30 20:37
schestowitzI'm having a cursory look at more Intel exhibits that need doing...Jan 30 20:37
schestowitzI never saw comments we got in Reddit... hmmmmmmmmm..   http://www.reddit.com/search?q=boycottnovellJan 30 20:42
schestowitzThe "kretik " stalker is there too (reddit) -- same guy that harasses me in Digg and mods down all my comment, along with libel. Maybe an MS shill...Jan 30 20:46
schestowitzMicrosoft on Intel... they have no shame.. More on the way... :-)Jan 30 21:09
schestowitzwasabi: is this you? http://digg.com/users/wasabiiJan 30 21:10
schestowitzSo all your pro-patents and pro-Windows remarks make sense now. You're here to troll. http://www.facebook.com/people/Jero...Jan 30 21:14
schestowitzOh, I see...Jan 30 21:14
schestowitzhttp://lists.o-hand.com/gupnp... "I'd just like to let anybody who cares know about the Mono bindings I have been working on. You can find them published in bzr at [1]. "Jan 30 21:14
schestowitzwasabi: so you're one of the Mono developers.Jan 30 21:14
schestowitzYes, lots of Mono stuff: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~wasabiJan 30 21:14
wasabiDo you consider alternate views trolling by default?Jan 30 21:14
schestowitzAnd you're slinging at us at DiggJan 30 21:14
schestowitzSo why are you here?Jan 30 21:15
wasabiTo watch. Because I find it curious.Jan 30 21:15
schestowitzOKJan 30 21:15
schestowitzAt least we now know your motivesJan 30 21:15
wasabiDo you? I suspect you really have no idea.Jan 30 21:15
twitterthat would make you a liarJan 30 21:15
schestowitzSo you love Mono and....... you promote Windows hereJan 30 21:16
schestowitzAnd you also strongly defend software patents, saying that they are good to you.Jan 30 21:16
wasabiI don't promote or demote anything.Jan 30 21:16
schestowitzIs this the norm among Mono devs?Jan 30 21:16
wasabiYou may have noticed that. I just state opinions.Jan 30 21:16
wasabiI'm not anti-linux, I'm not anti-MS, I'm not really anti-anything.Jan 30 21:16
wasabiI'm pro-everything.Jan 30 21:16
schestowitzBut you like software patentsJan 30 21:16
schestowitzFair enoughJan 30 21:16
wasabiI don't mind them.Jan 30 21:16
schestowitzBut we now know thisJan 30 21:16
wasabiI cannot write off software patents while not seeing a good alternative to them.Jan 30 21:17
schestowitzAre you pro-free thought?Jan 30 21:17
wasabiBecause I don't view the world as black/white.Jan 30 21:17
schestowitzWhat do other Mono devs think?Jan 30 21:17
wasabiI view it as a bunch of silly humans negotiating for position, compromising, trying to get stuff done.Jan 30 21:17
wasabiWhich ones?Jan 30 21:17
schestowitzWould you pay Microsoft for .NET patents?Jan 30 21:17
wasabiI'm not a 'Mono dev'.Jan 30 21:17
wasabiI've produced barely coherent bindings for gupnp, that don't work.Jan 30 21:17
twitterYou won't even tell us why you are here.  Why should we believe anything you have to say?Jan 30 21:17
wasabiThat's about the extent of it.Jan 30 21:17
schestowitzYou spend a lot of time controbting to itJan 30 21:17
schestowitzWhy?Jan 30 21:17
wasabiDo I?Jan 30 21:17
wasabiHow much time?Jan 30 21:17
schestowitzAre you helping Linux be patent encumberedJan 30 21:18
schestowitzSo that the sw patents you love become part of ti?Jan 30 21:18
wasabiWhich patents?Jan 30 21:18
wasabiSee, interseting.Jan 30 21:18
wasabiYou now claim i 'love' them.Jan 30 21:18
wasabiThat's an irrational position, as I never stated or inferred that I did.Jan 30 21:18
MinceRthere's a good alternative to sw patents: no sw patents.Jan 30 21:18
schestowitzHe's not pro-no sw patentsJan 30 21:18
schestowitzHe's pro Microsoft thingsJan 30 21:18
wasabiI'm pro-everything.Jan 30 21:18
MinceRi knowJan 30 21:18
schestowitzCheck log historyJan 30 21:18
wasabiHere I am. Speaking to you from a Linux box.Jan 30 21:19
twitterthere are better things to doJan 30 21:19
wasabiYou'll notice my hostname.Jan 30 21:19
schestowitzwasabi: no such thing as pro-everythingJan 30 21:19
schestowitzThat would imply pro-terrorism and child abuse tooJan 30 21:19
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wasabiHeh. How about we keep on topic?Jan 30 21:19
schestowitzThis is the topicJan 30 21:19
wasabiI'm an ubuntu developer. A mono developer. And I develop Linux applications in C, and Windows applications. I promote open source where it fits, and whatever else wherever else it fits.Jan 30 21:19
PetoKrausubuntuJan 30 21:19
wasabibrbJan 30 21:20
PetoKrausno worries mateJan 30 21:20
twittertake your timeJan 30 21:20
PetoKrausyou know, shane made quite correct assumptionJan 30 21:20
PetoKrausabout "internet credibility"Jan 30 21:21
PetoKrausthere's no such thing, especially when anyone can use any smurf accountJan 30 21:21
MinceR"open source where it fits, and whatever else wherever else it fits" would match just about anythingJan 30 21:21
schestowitzI know..Jan 30 21:21
MinceRthe question is what you think fits whereJan 30 21:21
schestowitzOx picture comes to mind.Jan 30 21:21
PetoKrausthat was only ad "I am an analytical chemist. And casual python programmer. I promote free software where it fits, and repair windows machines as my job."Jan 30 21:22
schestowitzMicrosoft like open source where it fits.. an unimplemented TCP/IP stack :-)Jan 30 21:22
MinceR:)Jan 30 21:22
schestowitz"it Fits!"Jan 30 21:22
MinceRas long as they don't have to give anything backJan 30 21:22
PetoKrausactually todayJan 30 21:22
MinceRand they'll still call it an "intellectual property destroyer" while raking in the profitsJan 30 21:23
schestowitz:-)Jan 30 21:23
schestowitzSounds like AppleJan 30 21:23
PetoKrausi was thinking - i paid €£25 for "silver service" of my bikeJan 30 21:23
MinceRapple and microsoftJan 30 21:23
PetoKrausi guess it took the guy approx 2 hours to fix itJan 30 21:23
PetoKrausnow, system restore in our shop is €£40... it takes me at about two hoursJan 30 21:23
PetoKrausi'm wondering whether it's fairJan 30 21:23
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schestowitzTo whom?Jan 30 21:25
schestowitzMicrosoft is happyJan 30 21:25
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schestowitzThe customer -- not so much,.Jan 30 21:25
schestowitzThe repairer... well, no satisfaction there, is there...? I mean, fixing stuff that breaks isn't as fun as doing creative things.Jan 30 21:26
wasabiMy only ideological position is 'getting things done'.Jan 30 21:27
wasabiLinux runs on my router, because it rocks there. It runs on my desktop, because I like it. I do development in C# because it saves me time. I run IIS for web servers, because it has features that save me time. I run Windows on user's desktops, because it saves me time. I think WiMo is 'decent' because it saves me time. I think Android is awesome because I personally don't need the features WiMo has, but I'm not going to pretend my requirementJan 30 21:29
wasabis are the same as everybody's.Jan 30 21:29
wasabi(Android is awesome, btw)Jan 30 21:29
schestowitzWhy did you write it 'off-line'?Jan 30 21:29
wasabiI didn't. I went to work.Jan 30 21:29
wasabiI just got back and typed that.Jan 30 21:29
schestowitz"Don't get me wrong, I like Android, but..."Jan 30 21:29
schestowitzWhere have I heard this before..?Jan 30 21:29
wasabiI'm not anti-patent because I cannot really imagine how I'd pay developers without making money, and I can't imagine making money without patents.Jan 30 21:30
schestowitzThe issue I have is not with the opinionsJan 30 21:30
schestowitzI'm not against you.Jan 30 21:30
schestowitzBut to see that you're sort of abusing this site and vilifying it is clear.Jan 30 21:30
wasabiI'm not pro-patent because I think lots about patent law sucks.Jan 30 21:30
schestowitzWhich means you're here to cause trouble.Jan 30 21:30
wasabiHmm?Jan 30 21:30
wasabiMan I have no idea where you get that.Jan 30 21:31
schestowitzbenJIman used to do the same thing.Jan 30 21:31
schestowitzHe's an Opesuse lad... and he's here because "he's curious" or whatever.Jan 30 21:31
wasabiIt is curious.Jan 30 21:31
MinceRmost money is actually made without patents in the sw industryJan 30 21:31
schestowitzMore like intelligence... informing OpenSUSE people if something here goes 'amiss'Jan 30 21:31
benJImanObviously everyone who disagrees with schestowitz is a troll.Jan 30 21:31
MinceRit's made by selling licenses and support.Jan 30 21:31
schestowitzbenJIman: that's not the point I madeJan 30 21:32
wasabiMinceR: And those licenses are only required because people are not able to go and duplicate work.Jan 30 21:32
schestowitzbenJIman: see the logJan 30 21:32
wasabiMinceR: If they could just duplicate work, nobody would license.Jan 30 21:32
twitterno benji but you and wasabi are trollsJan 30 21:32
MinceRwasabi: patents aren't the main reason for thatJan 30 21:32
wasabisigh.Jan 30 21:32
MinceRwasabi: code takes actual work to implementJan 30 21:32
schestowitzIt's when people come to IRC to disrupt, that's when it aligns with the definition of Internet trolling.Jan 30 21:32
MinceRwasabi: and the copying of code is copyright, not patentsJan 30 21:32
wasabiMinceR: But the work is the cheap part.Jan 30 21:32
wasabiMinceR: The idea is what is expensive.Jan 30 21:32
MinceRexcept no, it isn'tJan 30 21:32
wasabiSure it is. Look at FOSS.Jan 30 21:33
wasabiThere is tons of code. All done by volunteers.Jan 30 21:33
wasabiIf it's not 'cheap', that would not be the case.Jan 30 21:33
schestowitzJust because you use Linux doesn't mean we're some kind of hippies rejoicing in WoodstockJan 30 21:33
MinceRthe way it is now is that sw patents are for ideas, not implementationJan 30 21:33
twitterso wasabi, how do free software people make money without patents?Jan 30 21:33
MinceRso they don't cover most of the workJan 30 21:33
wasabitwitter: They barely do.Jan 30 21:33
twitterIt's a multi billion dollar industry.Jan 30 21:33
MinceRwasabi: yes, i'm sure about 20 years of development on a project by lots of individuals and companies counts as "cheap" in your worldJan 30 21:33
wasabitwitter: You have a hand ful of free software companies who are profitable, and none are profitable enough to drive any single product to absolute completion.Jan 30 21:33
MinceRi wouldn't call that "cheap"Jan 30 21:34
twittercomplete, like IIS and Winblows?Jan 30 21:34
wasabitwitter: The ones who are massively profitable are profitable on the backs of their existing businesses, such as hardware or exclusive support contracts.Jan 30 21:34
schestowitzApache is built by companiesJan 30 21:34
schestowitzThey are paid for itJan 30 21:34
PetoKrauswasabi: yes, you might want to just get things done, and if you think Windows suits you, whateverJan 30 21:34
MinceRwell, IIS is complete -- a complete failure. :>Jan 30 21:34
schestowitzOnly a fraction of the developers are not from companiesJan 30 21:34
wasabiWorks fine for me.Jan 30 21:34
PetoKrauswasabi: i am not here to persuade you, you knowJan 30 21:34
schestowitzThe Linux project is similarJan 30 21:34
wasabiNever said otherwise.Jan 30 21:34
schestowitzThey pool their resources for self gain.. yes, companiesJan 30 21:34
twitterhow do doctors, lawyers and engineers make money without patents?Jan 30 21:34
wasabiUm. Because they provide a service that takes years to learn. :)Jan 30 21:35
MinceRwasabi: also, how many individual submissions by volunteers would have to accumulate for you to not consider their sum "cheap"?Jan 30 21:35
PetoKrauswasabi: though part of my work is to offer help to people (not saying offer help to you). And there I much rather offer help which is related to FLOSS than proprietary productsJan 30 21:35
twitterand programmers don't?Jan 30 21:35
wasabiYou cannot just copy somebodies surgical technique. You have to practice.Jan 30 21:35
wasabitwitter: It's a different problem space.Jan 30 21:35
MinceRwow, just like software designJan 30 21:35
schestowitzTrueJan 30 21:35
schestowitzCause you can duplicate codeJan 30 21:35
MinceRand even development to some extentJan 30 21:35
schestowitzShould we restrict what's possible?Jan 30 21:35
MinceRi mean coding.Jan 30 21:36
wasabiMinceR: software design is an abstract.  The ability to 'design software' is not equivilent like 'the ability to cut open somebody an operate'Jan 30 21:36
schestowitzMaybe we should ride horses and wagons againJan 30 21:36
twitteryou can duplicate chunks of law books too, but that won't solve problems.Jan 30 21:36
schestowitzIt makes jobs for the horse... and rickshaw people.Jan 30 21:36
wasabiYou have to read the law books. That's where the worth is.Jan 30 21:36
MinceRwasabi: so what? it's still a difficult task with varying degrees of successJan 30 21:36
twitterthere's no difference between coding and other professions, except for M$'s monopoly market distortion.Jan 30 21:36
trmancobig discussion going on hereJan 30 21:36
wasabiI can't answer everybody at once, either.Jan 30 21:36
PetoKraustwitter: i'd concurJan 30 21:37
twitteryou can't answer any of this because you are trolling.  spewing BS to waste time.Jan 30 21:37
wasabiMinceR: The industries that you mentioned do have sub-industries that ARE analogous to programming. Such as medicine.Jan 30 21:37
wasabiAnd they DO have patents.Jan 30 21:37
PetoKrausthere's difference between jobs which create, and jobs which administerJan 30 21:37
MinceRthe way it is now, sw patents apply to vague ideas -- and everyone has lots of crazy ideas, that's not where most of the value comes from.Jan 30 21:37
wasabiThe value comes in teh refinement of the idea. I'm going to use the office Ribbon as an example, though I think it is a highly charged example, that'll probably get most of you mad at the wrong thing.Jan 30 21:38
wasabiit would take me 4 days to rewrite the ribbon.Jan 30 21:38
wasabiBecause it's dirt simple.Jan 30 21:38
twitterthe "ribbon" only makes people who use it angry.Jan 30 21:38
MinceRlol ribbonJan 30 21:38
wasabiBut it took MSR some 15 years of sitting around and failing over and over again with Office versions until they hit on that idea.Jan 30 21:39
wasabiThe ribbon makes technological professionals unhappy.Jan 30 21:39
MinceRthe ribbon is a usability failureJan 30 21:39
wasabiNormal users find it useful.Jan 30 21:39
wasabiTechnological professionals are a minority.Jan 30 21:39
schestowitzRibbon is Corel ripoffJan 30 21:39
schestowitzThat's not an 'idea'Jan 30 21:39
schestowitzAll ideas are inspired by inputiJan 30 21:39
schestowitzInput is another person's outputJan 30 21:39
schestowitzOr nature's outputJan 30 21:39
wasabiNever said otherwise.Jan 30 21:39
MinceRprofessionals make up most of the requirements and most of the profitJan 30 21:39
wasabiOh, I disagree completely. I buy MS licenses in the hundreds. I buy them for office workers. Secretaries. Marketing people.Jan 30 21:40
schestowitzwasabi: Microsoft is pressured to harp R&D this and thatJan 30 21:40
wasabiPeople who don't even know what RAM is.Jan 30 21:40
schestowitzThey are given speech talking points about this nonsenseJan 30 21:40
wasabiMost of these people really like the ribbon.Jan 30 21:40
schestowitzRibbon is about perceived valueJan 30 21:40
MinceRwasabi: compare them to the cost of more specialized, more "professional" software.Jan 30 21:40
schestowitzIt's rubbishJan 30 21:40
schestowitzIt takes a 12 year old to think of itJan 30 21:40
wasabiThen why did MS do it first?Jan 30 21:41
wasabiAnd not a 12 yo?Jan 30 21:41
MinceRbecause only they use people on that mental level to design ui-sJan 30 21:41
wasabiit *is* a simple idea. It *is*. I'm not claiming otherwise.Jan 30 21:41
schestowitzVista... WOW!..."we invested $6bn" (in this rubbish)Jan 30 21:41
wasabiBut simple ideas take time to come up with.Jan 30 21:41
MinceRothers use skilled professionals insteadJan 30 21:41
tessierhttp://www.technewsworld.com/story/65...Jan 30 21:41
wasabiTime is something you pay people for.Jan 30 21:41
schestowitzSpending $6 in making something worse? Oh wait... cause they binned LonghornJan 30 21:41
tessierBoycott Novell gets a mentionJan 30 21:41
MinceRor others came up with the ribbon and quickly realized how retarded it isJan 30 21:41
tessierThe site seems to be becoming influentialJan 30 21:41
MinceRand didn't develop it furtherJan 30 21:41
wasabiIt might be the most simple idea in the world, but if I have to pay 30 engineers to sit around and drink Coke for 4 years until they think of it.Jan 30 21:41
wasabiThen I have to pay them.Jan 30 21:42
MinceRthey have marketers, not engineersJan 30 21:42
wasabiPssh.Jan 30 21:42
schestowitztessier: I saw this article before and didn't notice us mentionedJan 30 21:42
wasabiMarketers are human engineers. :0Jan 30 21:42
wasabiGood ones anyways.Jan 30 21:43
schestowitzMarketing is not a professionJan 30 21:43
schestowitzIt's deceptionJan 30 21:43
wasabisigh.Jan 30 21:43
schestowitzMuch like other redundant occupationsJan 30 21:43
MinceRwasabi: you really have no respect for engineering, do you?Jan 30 21:43
wasabiAre you that angry with the way the world, and the human race, work?Jan 30 21:43
schestowitzIncluding idiots who 'speculate' currencies and push papers aroundJan 30 21:43
schestowitzMarketing is about subversion of market forcesJan 30 21:44
wasabiMinceR: I have tons of respect. I am an engineer.Jan 30 21:44
schestowitzIt's about trying to sell things to people who do not need themJan 30 21:44
wasabiMinceR: But I recognize no normal people will ever know about what I design until I get them to notice.Jan 30 21:44
schestowitzIt's not the natural buyers that marketing targetsJan 30 21:44
schestowitzit's the indifferent people who need to be brainwashJan 30 21:44
schestowitzThe same goes for selling a wayJan 30 21:44
schestowitz*a warJan 30 21:44
wasabiSounds like living in a bubble to me.Jan 30 21:44
wasabiMost of the people I know are not engineers.Jan 30 21:44
schestowitzThat's marketing too. The foreign affairs are handles by the PR industryJan 30 21:44
wasabiThey do not respond to arguments about technical superiority.Jan 30 21:45
wasabibecause the mostly don't care.Jan 30 21:45
schestowitzSo they are zombiesJan 30 21:45
MinceRif you take a look at the world, you'll see that there's plenty to be angry about regarding how the human race worksJan 30 21:45
schestowitzThey respond to arbitrary messagesJan 30 21:45
wasabiSo, is that were you stop?Jan 30 21:45
wasabi"They are zombies."Jan 30 21:45
wasabiYou see, I said very early up front, I like to solve problems.Jan 30 21:45
schestowitzA curious person assesses thingsJan 30 21:45
wasabiWhat are you proposing to do about these zombies?Jan 30 21:45
schestowitzA passive person listens to markleters.Jan 30 21:45
schestowitzSuch a person is /told/ what to thinkJan 30 21:46
wasabiMe, i don't find that they are zombies. They are human beings. I want to know how to work with them.Jan 30 21:46
wasabiHow to do things that benefit them.Jan 30 21:46
wasabiBecause I cannot cahnge them.Jan 30 21:46
schestowitzIt's only choice and independence is changing channels or friendJan 30 21:46
schestowitz*dsJan 30 21:46
wasabiIt's presumptious of me to think that I am better than everybody. So I don't.Jan 30 21:46
schestowitzYou aren'tJan 30 21:46
wasabiThey are just different. Different personality types.Jan 30 21:46
schestowitzNeither am IJan 30 21:46
wasabiYou just labeled them zombies.Jan 30 21:46
wasabiThat sounds like you are.Jan 30 21:46
schestowitzBut the aspiration is to improve things for everyoneJan 30 21:47
schestowitzAnd you're here trying to persuade me otherwiseJan 30 21:47
wasabiYou are going to improve things by making everybody an engineer?Jan 30 21:47
wasabiSounds unreasonable.Jan 30 21:47
schestowitzYou came to this channel hoping to change the agenda.Jan 30 21:47
schestowitzI don't intrude Windows sitesJan 30 21:47
wasabiThis is a single opinion channel/Jan 30 21:47
schestowitzI don't like Britney Spears, but I don't go to her fan sites to aggravateJan 30 21:47
wasabiIf so, I'll just leave. But that seems like a bubble to me.Jan 30 21:47
wasabiAnd not useful.Jan 30 21:47
schestowitzNot quiteJan 30 21:48
schestowitzBut I see you trying to damage usJan 30 21:48
wasabiSitting around with people who already agree with you, reinforcing your own opinions? I don't do that. I go out and engage.Jan 30 21:48
schestowitzI saw it in Digg tooJan 30 21:48
schestowitzWhy?Jan 30 21:48
wasabiUm. Because the goal is to challenge my own opinions.Jan 30 21:48
wasabiAnd challenge theirs. And challenge them to challenge me. No self-improvement can be made otherwise.Jan 30 21:48
schestowitzYou can present the views in a platform that's receptive in the sense that it is there to listenJan 30 21:49
schestowitzWhich is fineJan 30 21:49
schestowitzBut you try to hurt this platformJan 30 21:49
wasabiI don't find that helpful. All the successful campaigns of ideas in the history of the human race are forced on people who disagree.Jan 30 21:49
schestowitzThat's like me walking into a mosque and telling people "hey, don't go in there... it's horrible inside"Jan 30 21:49
schestowitzA better way is this:Jan 30 21:49
wasabiSegregation is only gone because people stood up for their rights, and protested in front of people who did not care.Jan 30 21:49
schestowitzMake a platform where you can present your stance and hope to have people subscribe their attentionJan 30 21:50
schestowitzI, for one, read some Microsoft blogsJan 30 21:50
wasabiI don't.Jan 30 21:50
wasabiHeh.Jan 30 21:50
schestowitzI don't participate but I listen and learn from themJan 30 21:50
schestowitzIf I want to criticise them, I do it in my platformJan 30 21:50
wasabiI don't read any MS literature of any sort.Jan 30 21:50
wasabiI'm not that receptive to advertising.Jan 30 21:51
wasabiActually I mostly don't have time.Jan 30 21:51
schestowitzApropos:Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz" COLA is not a physical location, so they have had to adapt their methodsJan 30 21:51
schestowitz so that they can do an on-line version of what was described in the priorJan 30 21:51
schestowitz paragraph. A key method used by anti-Linux propagandist to attack Linux,Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz its users, sysadmins, developers, advocates and those who have come toJan 30 21:51
schestowitz COLA to lean about Linux. is a form of propaganda known as disinformation.Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz One of their favorite version of disinformation is known as FUD.Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz7.3 A Common FUD of the Anti-Linux PropagandistsJan 30 21:51
schestowitz An example of dishonesty of the anti-Linux propagandists is their commonJan 30 21:51
schestowitz claim that the Linux proponents in COLA oppose the use of any otherJan 30 21:51
schestowitz operating system. They also would have you believe that the LinuxJan 30 21:51
schestowitz proponents in COLA oppose everyone who does not use Linux all the time.Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz Those are some of the lies that they use to try to discredit Linux usersJan 30 21:51
schestowitz who post in COLA.Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz The truth is that a user of one or more operating systems other than LinuxJan 30 21:51
schestowitz are not opposed in COLA for that reason alone. Many of the Linux AdvocatesJan 30 21:51
schestowitz in COLA have experience on many other operating systems besides Linux.Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz Many do use multiple operating systems on a regular basis. It is due toJan 30 21:51
schestowitz this experience that any disinformation regarding the capabilities ofJan 30 21:51
schestowitz Linux, or that of other operating systems are easily detected by the LinuxJan 30 21:51
schestowitz advocates.Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz It is not difficult to tell the difference between an anti-LinuxJan 30 21:51
schestowitz Propagandist and a true advocates of another operating system. OccasionalJan 30 21:51
schestowitz mention of other operating systems is fine. However, it is the frequent orJan 30 21:51
schestowitz continuous promotion of other operating systems that turns a welcomeJan 30 21:51
schestowitz poster into an unwelcome troll or anti-Linux propagandist.Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz7.6 Trespasser Disinformation TacticsJan 30 21:51
schestowitz This is a list of the disinformation tactics that the that the anti-LinuxJan 30 21:51
schestowitz propagandists who post in COLA have been using. All of these tactics haveJan 30 21:51
schestowitz been used in COLA by the anti-Linux propagandists against the LinuxJan 30 21:51
schestowitz advocates and the rest of the COLA readership to further the cause of theJan 30 21:51
schestowitz anti-Linux proJan 30 21:51
schestowitz"If COLA were a physical location like a building where those who wouldJan 30 21:52
schestowitz advocate the growth of the Linux operating systems and the Linux communityJan 30 21:52
schestowitz gather, the anti-Linux propagandists would be raiding that building. TheyJan 30 21:52
schestowitz would be vandalizing the building, painting graffiti on the walls,Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz defecating and urinating on the floors and furniture, breaking down theJan 30 21:52
schestowitz doors, setting fire to the building and physically assaulting the residentJan 30 21:52
schestowitz Linux advocates and the visitors who happen to be in the building at theJan 30 21:52
schestowitz time of the raid."Jan 30 21:52
wasabiI'm not actually going to read any of that.Jan 30 21:52
schestowitzSo why "piss on  us"?Jan 30 21:52
wasabiCan you paraphrase into a form suitable for IRC?Jan 30 21:52
schestowitzYou can spray your apartment to say you don't like what we say. That's not vandalism.Jan 30 21:53
schestowitztrmanco: Sermo Malifer is flatfish Stewart.. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient...Jan 30 21:57
trmancoI plonked himJan 30 21:57
schestowitzI put up a postJan 30 21:58
trmancoI plonk the majority of Windows usersJan 30 21:58
tessierhttp://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/01/...Jan 30 22:02
tessierBN is references in the first commentJan 30 22:02
schestowitzCool.Jan 30 22:04
schestowitzI like Ken's blogJan 30 22:04
schestowitzOh, the comment is from WinterJan 30 22:06
schestowitzHe is (was) very prolific in Groklaw.Jan 30 22:06
schestowitzGoogle-backed tool detects Net filtering, blocking < http://news.zdnet.com/2424-9595... >Jan 30 22:07
MinceRhttp://www.samefacts.com/archives/torture_/2009...Jan 30 22:08
schestowitz*LOL* http://www.vsubhash.com/images/linux...Jan 30 22:09
MinceRold but funnyJan 30 22:09
schestowitzNo eye for an eye?Jan 30 22:10
schestowitz"Since most bullies are also cowards, I suspect that the years of maltreatment the Bush Administration inflicted on innocent Afghani peasants to get them to make false confessions will not be necessary to get Bush and his cronies to confess."Jan 30 22:10
schestowitzOh, so no waterboarding for George then, I gues...Jan 30 22:10
schestowitz"So now is the moment for the President-elect to confute his critics, and demonstrate that he has the toughness needed to deal with the Islamofascist threat, no matter who its agents may be." So will he criminalise them?Jan 30 22:11
*jose__ (n=jose@98.64.49.148) has joined #boycottnovellJan 30 22:11
MinceRread on :>Jan 30 22:14
trmancoschestowitz, was that real?Jan 30 22:16
MinceRit's satiricalJan 30 22:16
MinceRlike the original "modest proposal"Jan 30 22:16
trmancohmm, okJan 30 22:17
schestowitzIncompetence in action (MS partner): Comcast Screws Up And Targets Innocent Customer In P2P Dragnet < http://techdirt.com/articles/2009... >Jan 30 22:18
schestowitzWhoa. NEC to Lay off 20,000 as Economy Bites < http://www.pcworld.com/article/158623/nec_to... >Jan 30 22:24
MinceRhttp://www.credoaction.com/comics/2009/01/in...Jan 30 22:24
wasabiI had no idea 20,000 people worked for NECJan 30 22:27
schestowitzYes, same here re: proportion/scale of workforce. The company is a dinosaur though.Jan 30 22:29
schestowitzSamsung hs/had 700,000Jan 30 22:29
schestowitzUbuntu burial for poor man << http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Artic... >>Jan 30 22:33
MinceRwhy even bury people?Jan 30 22:34
MinceRcremate themJan 30 22:34
MinceRor study them for science :)Jan 30 22:35
schestowitzReligion does not like this idea.Jan 30 22:36
schestowitz"What about the souls..." you know?Jan 30 22:36
MinceRthe souls are supposed to be already departedJan 30 22:36
schestowitzCremated too?Jan 30 22:36
MinceRunless there's a large amount of people practicing ancient egyptian faith :>Jan 30 22:36
MinceRat the point of deathJan 30 22:37
schestowitzWell, pyramid slavery and all...Jan 30 22:37
schestowitzDid you see the body they pulled from the glacier the other day?Jan 30 22:37
schestowitzOver 5000 years old...Jan 30 22:37
MinceRi'm not sureJan 30 22:37
MinceRprobably notJan 30 22:37
schestowitzAlmost old enough to scare those who believe the earth is no more than 6000 years old.Jan 30 22:37
MinceR:DJan 30 22:37
schestowitzI think it was in the RegJan 30 22:37
schestowitzWaitJan 30 22:37
MinceRi though the one in the Reg wasn't found recentlyJan 30 22:38
MinceRonly analyzed more thoroughly recentlyJan 30 22:38
MinceRto find the cause of deathJan 30 22:38
schestowitzI was actually shocked last month when someone here in IRC said the teachers are forbidden from telling truth about Grand CanyonJan 30 22:38
MinceRdon't you know the world was created last Thursday? :>Jan 30 22:38
schestowitzThey are not permitted to tell kids how old the canyon isJan 30 22:38
schestowitzWait..Jan 30 22:38
schestowitzhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/200...Jan 30 22:39
schestowitzThat's the dudeJan 30 22:39
MinceRwhose frozen body was found preserved in an Italian glacier in 1991Jan 30 22:39
schestowitzWindows 7: Not Quite The Change We Need < http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fasterforward... > :-)Jan 30 22:39
MinceRs/^/"/; s/$/"/Jan 30 22:40
schestowitzI didn't see the comment, but maybe the Vole has already unleashed Turfers on him...Jan 30 22:40
MinceRvista7 might continue the change we needJan 30 22:40
MinceRthat was already helped by vistaJan 30 22:40
schestowitzYesJan 30 22:40
MinceRthat is, the marginalization of windowsJan 30 22:40
schestowitzI knowJan 30 22:40
schestowitzWindows for -$50Jan 30 22:40
schestowitz"Just take it, take it!"Jan 30 22:40
schestowitz"And buy Office for $99 as addon"Jan 30 22:41
MinceR:)Jan 30 22:41
schestowitzMicrosoft may be the next SymantecJan 30 22:41
MinceR"i'll take ten billion then. that'll be $500 billion, thank you very much."Jan 30 22:41
schestowitzI suppose you heard the news about SymantecJan 30 22:41
MinceRi haven't, but their expertise is legendaryJan 30 22:42
MinceRat least their hungarian distributors keep saying the most uninformed and stupid things publicly all the timeJan 30 22:42
schestowitz$500bn, eh? Who would loan this moneyJan 30 22:42
schestowitzMicrosoft must have about $5bn left in the bank ATMJan 30 22:42
MinceRthe USian government, of courseJan 30 22:42
schestowitzThe Foundry of Gates is another matterJan 30 22:43
MinceRmoney is created out of nothing anywayJan 30 22:43
schestowitzThat's where they StashIt!Jan 30 22:43
*jose (n=jose@98.64.49.148) has joined #boycottnovellJan 30 22:43
schestowitzMinceR: money is printedJan 30 22:43
schestowitzEither as bills or as balance sheetJan 30 22:43
MinceRmost of it actually isn'tJan 30 22:43
MinceRit's created in banks :)Jan 30 22:43
schestowitzSome people lost all their savings, which were tied to stockJan 30 22:43
MinceRafaik even balance sheets are optional nowJan 30 22:44
*jose__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Jan 30 22:44
schestowitzOther people have possessions like houses. Their worth dropped, but they maintain possession. Less fortunate ones have a mortgage so they lose the house or rent it now.Jan 30 22:44
schestowitzLet me find s/tJan 30 22:44
joseschestowitz, I fell asleep thinking about something before.. I think I'll clean up and then present "part 1".Jan 30 22:45
schestowitzhttp://www.markshuttleworth.co...Jan 30 22:46
joseI'd prefer to do part 2 before posting part 1 but I think I can clean something up that I won't want to undo.Jan 30 22:46
schestowitzHe said something along the lines of, "what does it mean to have money in the bank if the banks go bankrupt?" he's good at macro-economics. What did he study again? Was it business?Jan 30 22:46
schestowitzjose: did you see the post about RMS quote on mono?Jan 30 22:47
schestowitzRMS: “”[…] we know that Microsoft is getting patents on some features of C#. So I think it’s dangerous to use C#, and it may be dangerous to use Mono.”Jan 30 22:47
josenot yet.. i was sleepingJan 30 22:47
schestowitzI found this while catching up with hundreds of comments in RedditJan 30 22:47
*MinceR is waiting for the end of central regulation practiced by microsoftJan 30 22:48
schestowitzhttp://www.billparish.com/msftfraudfacts.html "“Microsoft’s perspective is best reflected by Bob Herbold, Chief Operating Officer, to whom the CFO reports. Bob very sincerely replied, “Bill, everyone is doing it.” "Jan 30 22:49
schestowitzKarl Marx, Das Kapital, 1867: "     Owners of capital will stimulate the working class to buy more and more of expensive goods, houses and technology, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until their debt becomes unbearable. The unpaid debt will lead to bankruptcy of banks, which will have to be nationalised…"Jan 30 22:49
schestowitzIntel Gets Educational with Classmate PCs < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/01/30/inte... >. Education????????????????????/ Or just more bu$ine$$.Jan 30 22:51
schestowitzSpot the Orwellianism  in "Unlimited Potential" [to corrupt young minds]Jan 30 22:51
schestowitz"Unlimited Potential" is in some sense the public identity of EDGI, for which Microsoft has variants with similar acronym and "project Marshall" (Microsoft calls this Memorandum of Understanding" in public)Jan 30 22:53
josei forgot to post this last time i was on.. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bill-Melinda-G...Jan 30 23:00
schestowitzTell them to sod offJan 30 23:01
schestowitzAre B&M still investing in Nigerian oil that kills kids?Jan 30 23:01
schestowitzI case you didn't see the videos: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/02/th...Jan 30 23:02
schestowitzWow. I've just watched carefully the latter part again.Jan 30 23:04
schestowitzSo he's injecting investments into big pharama  (billions) and then uses his 'donations' to feed those companies, which in turn brings him profit. Geez, this is criminal stuff. It's like making people ill so that you can sell them medicine and call yourself a Saint.Jan 30 23:05
schestowitz""Bill and Melinda Gates said Friday they were encouraging government and business leaders to keep investing in health and development in poor countries -- especially during the global financial crisis.Jan 30 23:08
schestowitzOf course...Jan 30 23:08
schestowitzHow else would big pharmas make money?Jan 30 23:08
schestowitzGates is an investor in big pharmasJan 30 23:08
schestowitzThey need to ensure governments give money to those phramasJan 30 23:08
schestowitzB&M need $$Jan 30 23:08
joselike windows, claim you are working on the X that powers the world, but don't say how you are keeping others from contributing similarly and more.Jan 30 23:11
schestowitzYes, lying without guilt is an artJan 30 23:14
schestowitzI'll wrtite about this laterJan 30 23:14
schestowitzBear in mind that B&M also fund the very govts they urge to pay pharmas here.Jan 30 23:15
schestowitzSo the money in this cycle comes mostly from exploiting the poor.Jan 30 23:15
*yuhong (n=chatzill@pool-71-188-245-175.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovellJan 30 23:27
yuhongLast time I talked about DR, SCP, and MS-DOS, my point was that MS did not get big by innovating.Jan 30 23:28
MinceRand that's correctJan 30 23:29
MinceR(unless we argue that m$ got big by innovating in the field of crime)Jan 30 23:30
yuhongSadly it deloved into whether MS did anything illegal here.Jan 30 23:30
yuhongMS didn't and even if it did, that is not my point.Jan 30 23:30
yuhongMS got big because DR dropped the ball, not because DOS was innovative.Jan 30 23:31
MinceRthey did and sometimes they got caughtJan 30 23:31
MinceRbut many of the evil things they did were legalJan 30 23:31
schestowitzyuhong: revisionism from you again?Jan 30 23:31
schestowitzThe USDOJ disagrees with youJan 30 23:31
schestowitzMicrosoft was found guilty many timesJan 30 23:31
yuhongI am talking about back in 1981.Jan 30 23:31
yuhongthe USDOJ investigations happened much later.Jan 30 23:32
MinceRinvestigations often investigate the pastJan 30 23:33
schestowitzhttp://linuxmednews.com/1233253455 (  Fedral Government To Blow Little Guy Out of the Water?)Jan 30 23:33
yuhongYes, but USDOJ never invesigated MS back in 1981.Jan 30 23:33
yuhongI am talking about MS-DOS 1.x/original IBM era here.Jan 30 23:33
yuhongNot the Windows 3.x era, I know that by then USDOJ was investegating MS thanks to AARD.Jan 30 23:34
yuhongAnd other things like that.Jan 30 23:34
yuhongAnyway, whether it was illegal was beside my point.Jan 30 23:35
yuhongMy point is that MS did not get big by innovating.Jan 30 23:36
yuhongIn contrast, Google got big because it had PageRank.Jan 30 23:36
yuhongThe things MS did in 1980-1981 was not illegal.Jan 30 23:37
yuhongI know that MS begin to be invetigated by the DOJ in the early 1990s.Jan 30 23:38
yuhongGet it now?Jan 30 23:38
*yuhong has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]")Jan 30 23:39
MinceRlolJan 30 23:39
schestowitzHe comes here every now again from SeattleJan 30 23:40
schestowitzhe does the same in Roughly Drafted and sites that are openly opposed to Microsoft's crimesJan 30 23:40
MinceRwhat does he want to prove anyway?Jan 30 23:40
schestowitzYou should see him when 's going at itJan 30 23:41
schestowitzHow much he loves Vista..Jan 30 23:41
schestowitzHow Microsoft doesn't break the law and so on..Jan 30 23:41
MinceR:)Jan 30 23:42
schestowitzI thought he had lived in the east, but no..Jan 30 23:42
schestowitzThe English is llmited and he runs away when I ask about his locationJan 30 23:42
schestowitzHold on..Jan 30 23:42
schestowitzIt's better to show than to tell, so... http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/09/m...Jan 30 23:43
schestowitz"There was also news that left a hint of egg on some Redmond faces. Specifically, citing a confidential memo from Microsoft that was used as evidence in antitrust proceedings, an article on Boycott Novell charged that a Microsoft "task force" lobbied Wal-Mart "Jan 30 23:43
schestowitz"More than 1,400 Diggs and 300 comments greeted that one on Digg, even as bloggers also pondered a post from CNet's Matt Asay titled "Facts Behind Microsoft's Anti-Linux Campaign.""Jan 30 23:44
schestowitzBoth of these are BN posts...  http://www.linuxinsider.com/r...Jan 30 23:44
schestowitzI have another Intel one coming tomorrowJan 30 23:44
MinceRso he's a drive-by troll :>Jan 30 23:44
schestowitzhttp://digg.com/linux_unix/Microsoft_on... It'll make LinuxToday FP.Jan 30 23:44
joseroy, i'm not happy with how the draft sounds.. I don't think i'll be able to do very much more until sunday earliest.Jan 30 23:44
schestowitzwasabi might want to troll this one too, as he did earlier todayJan 30 23:45
schestowitzI'll post it tomorrow. Headline: Bill Gates: “This huge [Linux] Driver Group Scares Me.”Jan 30 23:45
schestowitzSomeone did the text for nmeJan 30 23:45
schestowitz"If it's a scanned image I just type it up...for me it seems faster to do that.  If it's already OCRd, then I copy the text and paste it into gedit, and then compare the two side by side and correct the OCR mistakes.  The hardest part is making sure the mistakes in the original text are left intact." We do the same thing in BN...Jan 30 23:46
schestowitzBut I use Kate, not gedit (GNOME.. meh)Jan 30 23:46
schestowitzShe's using Free software (Scribus). Scribus would be delighted to know. I was in touch with them before (USENET).Jan 30 23:47
schestowitzTomorrow's is Plaintiff's Exhibit 6567Jan 30 23:47
schestowitzjose: no rush, thanks.Jan 30 23:47
josethanks.. maybe i'll email you an update.Jan 30 23:48
schestowitzKatherine Noyes cites us quite a few time... good stuff.. http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstor...Jan 30 23:48
schestowitzFirefox gets a Live Search add-in, but does anyone care? http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/01/f...Jan 30 23:49
schestowitzMicrosoft brags about it as though it contributes to FOSSJan 30 23:49
schestowitzIt's like putting a Nike ad in a squash court and then claiming credit for 'decorating' the placeJan 30 23:50
schestowitzPoor martionette... http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/0... ... was handed a mess to deal with. He can start by cleaning up the fascistic laws ("amendments") and prosecuting BucheneyJan 30 23:51
schestowitzjose: Funny comments here < http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?... >. Seen em yet?Jan 30 23:52
jose8 out of 10 terrorists are smarter...Jan 30 23:55
schestowitzThey are not always stupidJan 30 23:56
schestowitzIn the US, people who are against the invasion of Iraq are labeled terrorists tooJan 30 23:56
schestowitzThis was in the news some months agoJan 30 23:56

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