12.17.08

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The Hecklers Were Wrong About OpenSUSE

Posted in GNU/Linux, OpenSUSE, Site News at 7:38 pm by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Clowns

Our regular hecklers gleefully attacked a post that remarked on the poor(er) performance of OpenSUSE. Well, guess who has the last laugh now that Andreas Jaeger acknowledges that there is a problem?

So… Alex, Jo, and others:

Will you attack Andreas or offer us an apology?

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75 Comments

  1. G. Michaels said,

    December 17, 2008 at 7:47 pm

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    You really don’t get it, do you?

    People are not “heckling” you because you mentioned that a Linux distro has a bug. People criticize the fact that you are doing the equivalent of OH LOLOLOLZ LOOK OVER THERE THE PRODUCT OF A COMPANY I HATE HAS A BUG HAHAHAHA!!! EVERYBODY WITH ME OR WHAT!? HAHAHAHA!!!.

    They do that because you are using the fact that openSUSE has a bug to disingenuously try to reinforce your overall criticism of Novell, as if a setting in /etc/fstab designed to protect data and sacrifice some speed is some sort of divine retribution from the Gods of GNU against Novell.

    Will you attack Andreas or offer us an apology?

    I honestly don’t see how one thing could be related to the other, except in your mind maybe, where constructive criticism == attack.

    Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.

  2. Dan O'Brian said,

    December 17, 2008 at 8:07 pm

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    I see that Roy has yet again failed at reading comprehension. Please note, at the very top of Andreas Jaeger’s post:

    Disk I/O – Safe or Fast?

    We have barriers enabled for the ext3 filesystem. This is needed for filesystem integrity but forces at certain points a flush of disk writeback caches to prevent data corruption.

    As Wikipedia states:

    “Ext3 does not do checksumming when writing to the journal. If barrier=1 is not enabled as a mount option (in /etc/fstab), and if the hardware is doing out-of-order write caching, one runs the risk of severe filesystem corruption during a crash.”

    With openSUSE barrier=1 is the default and even AFAIK openSUSE and SUSE Linux Enterprise are the only distributions enabling barriers by default.

    If you want to disable barriers, use “mount -o barrier=0″ on ext3 (or change /etc/fstab).

    The gzip test for example gives on one of our machines the following results:

    kernel-default-2.6.27.8-1.1 / ext3: 1348s
    kernel-default-2.6.27.8-1.1 / ext3 barrier=0: 437s

    Oh look, that’s exactly what AlexH was saying yesterday.

    openSUSE defaults to data safety rather than raw speed. Depending on what you, as a user, care about, this isn’t necessarily a Bad Thing(tm).

    If your data being stored in the sqlite DB is “mission critical”, then you’d likely prefer the added overhead of the fsync()ing.

  3. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 17, 2008 at 8:11 pm

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    You’re quoting selectively. I did not deny this part. People can read read the whole post.

  4. Dan O'Brian said,

    December 17, 2008 at 8:28 pm

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    Link-backs to AlexH’s analysis and criticisms of your conclusion-jumping skills found here: [1][2

    He specifically mentions that the reason the tests doing heavy disk-io (and specifically the sqlite test) were likely caused by ext3 barriers.

    You asserted that openSUSE was inferior to the other distros because of said tests. You completely failed to take into consideration that openSUSE simply had ext3′s data safety features enabled by default.

    #

    Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 15, 2008 at 8:56 am

    AlexH,

    It’s nothing to do with Sqlite. It loses in several other tests too.

    Face it. OpenSUSE (RC) is fat, other are fast. Unless you can come up with other tests, the fact remains.

    Let’s take a look at the other test where openSUSE fell behind, shall we?

    X11 and Graphics – Performance of the Intel Driver

    Looking at the graphics results, I see that OpenGL has the same performance but XRender is horribly slow, but Ubuntu sometimes(!) hits the same issue.

    We have an upstream bug open about X11 speed (see here), and it’s considered the highest priority bug, still nobody has a clue where it comes from. This needs to be rechecked with the final version of openSUSE 11.1, though, because there are some indications that it got improved. Intel has apparently fixed some of that in a newer driver that is not available yet.

    It would also be interesting to know whether Mandriva uses XAA or EXA, we do not use XAA for Intel driver any longer, since Intel as driver author does not want to support it, and it has issues with suspend and resume. The old XAA is currently better optimized than the new EXA.

    Hmm, so Ubuntu also suffers from the same XRENDER performance problems sometimes. Apparently it’s a known bug and that Intel may have fixed their drivers in an as-of-yet-unreleased version.

    If it is a bug in the Intel drivers, then this would not be the fault of openSUSE, would it?

    As Andreas also points out, it is possible that Madriva uses XAA rather than the newer, recommended, EXA. This could explain the difference in speed. As Intel is focusing on EXA for the future, the performance will only improve, eventually likely to leave XAA configurations behind.

  5. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 17, 2008 at 8:31 pm

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    Unless they actually do this, you will not know. It would be interesting to see alphas under the the same bunch of tests/benchmarks.

  6. Dan O'Brian said,

    December 17, 2008 at 8:47 pm

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    According to his message, Mandriva has dropped their patch to restore XAA as the default acceleration method for Intel drivers on Oct 22, 2008.

    Since Oct 22 was after the Mandriva 10 release (Oct 09), I guess that the benchmark was using XAA, unless Michael updated packages (which may or may not have included a new X which changed to defaulting to EXA).

    Just something to think about.

  7. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 17, 2008 at 8:49 pm

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    It’s not necessarily the culprit, just a difference.

  8. G. Michaels said,

    December 17, 2008 at 8:49 pm

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    It would be interesting to see alphas under the the same bunch of tests/benchmarks.

    This is the point where Roy finds himself confronted with actual evidence and cleverly tries to change the direction of the conversation, so it’s no longer about the flagrant extremism of exploiting a simple bug in openSUSE to further his SLOG against Novell, but about interesting benchmarks.

    Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.

  9. Dan O'Brian said,

    December 17, 2008 at 8:50 pm

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    Oops, forgot the link: http://www.nabble.com/-Cooker–ANN:-Acceleration-method-change-for-intel-driver-td20110862.html

    Also, in case this wasn’t clear:

    Mandriva has dropped their patch to restore XAA as the default acceleration method for Intel drivers

    Upstream XOrg is defaulting to EXA while Mandriva was applying a patch to revert the default back to XAA instead. At least up until Oct 22nd.

  10. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 17, 2008 at 8:52 pm

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    Yes, but this says nothing about performance.

  11. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 17, 2008 at 8:53 pm

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    Your hypothesis is that one single package (parameter in this test) is responsible for the anomalies.

  12. Dan O'Brian said,

    December 17, 2008 at 9:22 pm

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    Do you have a better suggestion on what the cause of the difference is? I suspect not.

  13. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 17, 2008 at 9:28 pm

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    I don’t assemble my own distribution, but the components or compilation parameters, e.g. for Linux (the kernel), may vary. The bottom line is that OpenSUSE binaries performed poorly in some tests.

  14. twitter said,

    December 17, 2008 at 9:57 pm

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    This is what I expected from the usual hecklers. No apology, just more bullshit. I wonder who they think they are fooling.

    Sooner or later. Suse is going to suck. Novell has pissed off the community and embraced a bunch of poison. The kind of developers they have left are either comfortable with this or don’t have a better way to pay the bills. Either way, distribution quality can be expected to fall as fewer resources are split among various demoralizing tasks. Trolls can nitpick the details but they can’t get around the obvious.

  15. Ian said,

    December 17, 2008 at 10:26 pm

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    The kind of developers they have left are either comfortable with this or don’t have a better way to pay the bills. Either way, distribution quality can be expected to fall as fewer resources are split among various demoralizing tasks. Trolls can nitpick the details but they can’t get around the obvious.

    In your angry frothing, I think you forgot what a Linux distribution is, how the software is community driven(for the most part), ignore the plethora of distributions that survive despite not paying employees to “develop”, and oh yeah…free.

    Seems to me you’re missing something obvious and fundamental. Isn’t this the stuff you’re apparently advocating?

  16. G. Michaels said,

    December 17, 2008 at 10:59 pm

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    I don’t assemble my own distribution

    No, that would imply actually contributing something to FOSS.

    Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.

  17. G. Michaels said,

    December 17, 2008 at 11:02 pm

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    This is what I expected from the usual hecklers. No apology, just more bullshit. I wonder who they think they are fooling.

    You know Will, I took a quick look at your posting history on Slashdot. I counted the number of posts made with your 14 accounts (the ‘main’ ones anyway), and these are the results:

    twitter: 8,104
    Erris: 1,777
    Mactrope: 112.
    gnutoo: 331
    willeyhill: 45
    westbake: 107
    inTheLoo: 131
    Odder: 141
    ibane: 40
    freenix: 50
    myCopyWrong: 29
    right handed: 22

    That’s 10,888 posts. Let me repeat that: Ten thousand, eight hundred and eighty-eight posts.

    In the four or five years I’ve been part of that community, I’ve seen you shamed and humiliated probably hundreds of times by many Slashdot users who replied to your obnoxious comments and corrected your lies and outrageous claims. This of course eventually led to your virtual forced exile from there, since no one wants to be associated with people like you.

    But not a single one of those instances where you’ve been clearly wrong (or just lying as usual) and promptly put in your place has ever elicited an apology, or even a half-proper response. At least I’ve never personally seen one. All you ever seemed to do was to cleverly nitpick or just take the easy route and insult people, calling them idiotic things like “twitter-hating trolls” and worse (especially your AC replies and stalking).

    So please, go away. The grownups are talking about important things. Don’t you have some more accounts to create on Digg or something?

    Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.

  18. teftolo-gam8 said,

    December 18, 2008 at 3:10 am

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    Well, Roy S. is talking out of his arse again, surprise.

    He perfectly knows that a) slower but safer ext3 settings and a buggy upstream intel-driver are not SUSE’s fault and b) A. Jaeger doesn’t apologize for a SUSE shortcoming – but he does write it nevertheless. Because he gives a shit about the truth.

    Have fun Roy, you’ve ruined your credibility long ago. Spread lies, attack fellow Linux developers. The consequences are all your own to bear.

    The Linux community has by now learned that R. S. is a big, fat liar that’s not to be trusted.

    Congratulations on making yourself and arse and making yourself an object of contempt within the Linux community.

  19. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 3:30 am

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    Wow. You want an apology? Let’s review what I said: it loses out on SQLite and Sunflow.

    Lo and behold, that’s exactly what Andreas said, and his assessment of the SQLite issue agrees exactly with what I posted.

    I’m sorry Roy, but I’m not going to apologise. You called out the entire OpenSUSE distribution as “fat” and “slow”. Turns out you were wrong, and the facts support my assessment.

  20. Jo Shields said,

    December 18, 2008 at 5:07 am

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    This is what I expected from the usual hecklers. No apology, just more bullshit. I wonder who they think they are fooling.

    ZOMG SWEARING!

    Smack him down, Roy! He used a NAUGHTY WORD!

  21. Jo Shields said,

    December 18, 2008 at 5:10 am

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    Spread lies, attack fellow Linux developers.

    “Fellow”?

    What does Roy do that earns him a title of “Linux developer”?

  22. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 5:16 am

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    What’s sad is that like many distributions, OpenSUSE is road-testing the valuable new additions and new features which we’re all going to use. Fedora, Ubuntu and OpenSUSE are all particularly good at this: they bring in important new functionality and help shake the gubbins out of it.

    Attacking distributions for having bugs is a great way to stop people doing this and put the brakes on free software development, because that kind of feedback is just so motivating.

  23. Jo Shields said,

    December 18, 2008 at 5:17 am

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    I’ve never really thought of openSUSE as the place for that – for the gushing-edge features that don’t really work yet, isn’t Fedora the place to look?

  24. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 5:26 am

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    Fedora is absolutely the number-one place, and Ubuntu and OpenSUSE come behind that a little – Ubuntu as a rule is relatively solid, but they shipped stuff like NetworkManager before Fedora, even though Red Hat developed it. OpenSUSE takes a similar approach: generally solid, but willing to try exciting new stuff – recall that SUSE basically single-handedly turned the desktop 3D, for example.

  25. Jo Shields said,

    December 18, 2008 at 5:27 am

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    Surely that was Sun? Remember Project Looking Glass? :p

  26. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 5:34 am

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    I wasn’t trying to imply that Novell were the first to think of having desktops in 3D, but they were the first to actually make it happen with Xgl and compiz. It’s now a standard feature.

  27. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 5:36 am

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    I see the hecklers can’t get enough of themselves (just spewing insults). You said OpenSUSE was not slower. Well, it is. It’s that simple.

  28. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 5:40 am

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    @Roy: a single X.org bug doesn’t make “OpenSUSE slower”.

    Calling people “hecklers” is also pretty insulting, too, btw.

  29. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 5:48 am

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    Your purpose here is to heckle the messenger, so you quality as one.

  30. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 6:07 am

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    No, my purpose here is to correct the “facts” you present in your attacks on free software projects. I could care less who the messenger is; in this case it happens to be you, on other sites it’s other people. Doesn’t matter. Attacks on free software are attacks on free software.

    Like in this example.

  31. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 6:08 am

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    You very often just nitpick. Your goal is to harm the credibility of the messenger.

  32. Jo Shields said,

    December 18, 2008 at 6:20 am

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    He doesn’t need to.

    You manage that yourself by lying.

  33. stevetheFLY said,

    December 18, 2008 at 6:20 am

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    Roy Schestowitz is a devious demagogue.

    A liar when he finds it conventient.
    Neglecting truth whenever it serves his cause.
    Rotten to the bone.

    He is Wormtongue.

    Enjoy you new name.

    Note: comment has been flagged for arriving from an incarnation of a known (eet), pseudonymous, forever-nymshifting, abusive Internet troll that posts from open proxies and relays around the world.

  34. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 6:49 am

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    @Jo Shields:

    Where do you see a lie?

  35. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 6:55 am

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    @Roy: what you class as “nitpicking” and what I do are obviously two entirely different things. When you post an opinion and all the facts are wrong, I call out the problems with the facts. Your opinion tends to be unrelated to the facts, so you try to defend it.

  36. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 7:02 am

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    When I write a very long post you can pick a single word or statement and derail the discussion. There are many examples like that.

  37. Jo Shields said,

    December 18, 2008 at 7:07 am

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    Where do you see a lie?

    On about 50% of your posts. Whenever I call you out on it, infact. I haven’t been keeping a list.

  38. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 7:14 am

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    Show examples, please. A lot of what you call “lies” are not lies; they are perspective you simply disagree with.

  39. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 7:22 am

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    “OpenSUSE is fat” appears to be a relevant conclusion that has been shown definitively to be erroneous.

    Of course, I’m sure you still support that statement :D

  40. Jo Shields said,

    December 18, 2008 at 7:24 am

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    Okay, here’s one.

    http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/28/irc-log-27112008/#tNov%2027%2002:02:48

  41. Jo Shields said,

    December 18, 2008 at 7:25 am

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    Here’s another:

    http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/28/microsoft-winforms-ubuntu/

  42. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 7:34 am

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    AlexH,

    That was factual and it’s confirmed by Andreas.

  43. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 7:36 am

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    @Jo Shields,

    That’s correct and I’ve already defended this in the discussion about the second post/link.

  44. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 7:41 am

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    @Roy: er, no, it isn’t. Perhaps take the time to review what he wrote again.

    He confirmed a single slow-down in one X.org component.

    He also repeated the disk i/o benchmarks with the correct configuration and, astoundingly, the results were the same as the other distros…

  45. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 7:45 am

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    He did a quick ext3 test. It’s not showing what you claim it shows.

  46. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 7:50 am

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    No, he repeated the Gzip test, where OpenSUSE matched Fedora 10 anyway, and showed that it got much better results (unsurprisingly) with a configuration which doesn’t guarantee data security.

    You can’t argue the facts, Roy.

  47. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:01 am

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    This is only one test.

    You can’t just selectively select facts, Alex.

  48. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:07 am

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    To clarify, the burden of proof is OpenSUSE’s, not mine.

  49. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:11 am

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    Roy, it’s not one test, as you know because this was explained to you fully the other day. With ext3 write barriers enabled, I/O benchmarks – like GZip, like SQLite – will take longer because data is being stored safely. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that having write barriers enabled on OpenSUSE and not on Ubuntu (for example) will make the benchmark “look worse”.

    I pointed out this problem with the SQLite test on the article you remonstrated with them. It’s not comparing like-with-like, and actually OpenSUSE is getting it right as compared to doing it as fast as possible.

    The only slow-down that is particular to OpenSUSE, as Andreas points out, is the EXA vs. XAA issue in X.org.

    Looking at the totality of the testing, there is no evidence that OpenSUSE as a distribution is “fat”. There is one bug that was picked up in one test, and that is a fact.

  50. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:12 am

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    @Roy: you seem to totally misunderstand what “burden of proof” means. It lies on the person making the claim: that would be you when you said “OpenSUSE is fat” and based that claim on a benchmark, when even the people running the benchmark didn’t draw that conclusion.

  51. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:16 am

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    I know very well what “burden of proof” means and it’s down to you/Novell/OpenSUSE to prove that Michael’s benchmarks are not fair. Don’t attack the messengers.

  52. stevetheFLY said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:22 am

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    Roy is a big fat liar, no use arguing with him, Alex.

    Note: comment has been flagged for arriving from an incarnation of a known (eet), pseudonymous, forever-nymshifting, abusive Internet troll that posts from open proxies and relays around the world.

  53. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:23 am

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    This “don’t attack the messenger” meme is getting boring, Roy. I haven’t attacked you once in this thread, what I have attacked is your insistence on defending your claim that OpenSUSE is “fat” in the fact of the evidence.

    I’ve already shown you one explicit example of where the benchmark is not fair. The SQLite insert test does not use a transaction, and so the cost of disk I/O wait is incurred on every line, instead of SQLite journalling the changes.

    I’ve also shown you why testing with write barriers enabled leads the benchmark to a different result due to the increased data security offered by the operating system. You wouldn’t benchmark an OS on two different computer systems and compare.

    As I said before: the only issue on the table is the X.org bug, and no-one is denying that. What is wrong, though, is extrapolating from a single bug and saying that the whole distribution is “fat”. That’s your claim, and you’re thus far completely unable to defend it.

  54. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:25 am

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    No, it’s “fat” but some people have an explanation as to why. I suppose you could go about semantics and try to define “fat”.

  55. stevetheFLY said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:26 am

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    Liar! Liar!

    Note: comment has been flagged for arriving from an incarnation of a known (eet), pseudonymous, forever-nymshifting, abusive Internet troll that posts from open proxies and relays around the world.

  56. Jo Shields said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:27 am

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    That’s correct

    Absolute, 100% verifiable, complete and total lies.

    Here comes the alarm!

    LIE ALERT! LIE ALERT!

    Here’s the PROOF that you’re a liar:

    The first entry of Mono into Debian is here:

    mono (0.13-1) unstable; urgency=low

    * Initial release.

    — Alp Toker Sun, 28 Apr 2002 22:10:10 +0100

    Ubuntu didn’t even EXIST when Debian was adding Mono to the archive. It didn’t exist for another two years.

    You still claim that Mono in Debian is the result of some kind of pressure from Ubuntu? How deluded ARE you?

    and I’ve already defended this in the discussion about the second post/link.

    You defended it by lying more!

  57. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:32 am

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    @Roy: unfortunately the facts stand, despite your desire to redefine the word “fat”. Your claim is that OpenSUSE is slower than the opposition, the fact is that it is not – bar the X.org problem.

    I find it absolutely hysterical that you call on people publicly to apologise for pointing out the errors in your original article, even though they’ve been demonstrated time and again.

  58. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:34 am

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    @Jo Shields (Mono maintainer),

    You’re referring to something that I uttered in an IRC channel. How pathetic. Moreover, Debian’s decision to stick with Mono is partly influenced by Ubuntu’s (Canonical’s) policy. See Fedora’s remarks for insight into the sheep effect (“everyone is doing it, so..”).

  59. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:37 am

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    AlexH said:

    …bar the X.org problem.

    Oh, I see…. let’s just remove the inconvenient facts.

  60. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:39 am

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    Already answered, Roy:

    [T]he only issue on the table is the X.org bug, and no-one is denying that. What is wrong, though, is extrapolating from a single bug and saying that the whole distribution is “fat”.

  61. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:44 am

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    It’s not an extrapolation. The distribution as a whole contains this bug.

  62. stevetheFLY said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:45 am

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    If only Roy understood how much he hurts the cause he believes to serve. His lying schemes and personal attacks are so easy to see through that one could easily belive all criticism of Novell would just be thought-up mischief. His repelling behavior and personality alone are enough to convince anyone to use openSUSE…

    Note: comment has been flagged for arriving from an incarnation of a known (eet), pseudonymous, forever-nymshifting, abusive Internet troll that posts from open proxies and relays around the world.

  63. Jo Shields said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:47 am

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    Debian’s decision to stick with Mono is partly influenced by Ubuntu’s (Canonical’s) policy.

    Can I expect to see any proof at some point, or are we sticking with the time-travel-based option?

    You know the real problem here, Roy? The absolute crux-of-the-matter problem?

    By not only constantly saying things which are verifiable wrong, but attempting to twist reality until you can somehow pretend you’re right, your credibility is slashed in the process. You’re not a guy who makes mistakes on occasion, you’re a guy who will defend outright lies to the death.

    And with your credibility swirling lower than the National Enquirer, and your ethics somewhere below Bill O’Reilley or Ann Coulter, how can anyone believe ANYTHING you say? Even when you’re actually right, people ASSUME YOU’RE WRONG.

    You’re the boy who cried wolf, Roy.

    If you could grow up and ADMIT YOUR MISTAKES, it would help your credibility. As it stands, it couldn’t go any lower.

  64. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:49 am

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    Oh man. Distributions contain a tonne of bugs, some of them extremely serious sometimes. How many Debian users do you think switched due to the enormous ssh key feck-up? Not many, I would bet.

    If you think you can label OpenSUSE on the basis of a single bug, then I guess that’s where we fundamentally disagree.

  65. AlexH said,

    December 18, 2008 at 8:51 am

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    @Jo: boy who cried wolf has been pointed out before ;)

  66. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 9:00 am

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    @Jo Shields:

    Back to personal attacks, I see…

    I know what some Debian developers are saying.

  67. Jo Shields said,

    December 18, 2008 at 9:08 am

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    Oh REALLY? Do tell.

  68. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 9:25 am

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    I’ve just wasted 10 minutes trying to find an E-mail I was unable to find.

  69. SubSonica said,

    December 18, 2008 at 9:29 am

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    “AlexH said,

    No, my purpose here is to correct the “facts””

    It very much reminds me of the “Get the facts” campaign motto…

    ” you present in your attacks on free software projects. I could care less who the messenger is; in this case it happens to be you, on other sites it’s other people. Doesn’t matter. Attacks on free software are attacks on free software.”

    Well, Novell patent-protection-racket agreement with Microsoft is Nº 1 attack on free software. SW Patents are the threat, the weapkn. And Microsoft is the attacker (with Novell as accomplice), not Roy. Why don’t you criticize that in the first place? It entails danger for anyone using any technology related to microsoft (Mono, Silverlight, MSOOXML) -except those who pay MSFT for “protection”- .

  70. Jo Shields said,

    December 18, 2008 at 9:29 am

    Gravatar

    How terribly inconvenient.

    If it was from rmh@debian, I’m not interested

  71. Dan O'Brian said,

    December 18, 2008 at 10:06 am

    Gravatar

    Roy Schestowitz said,
    December 18, 2008 at 9:25 am

    I’ve just wasted 10 minutes trying to find an E-mail I was unable to find.

    Why is it that you always lose the email and/or the person doesn’t want what they say to be repeated publicly?

    Is it because these “sources” are all in your imagination?

  72. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 10:11 am

    Gravatar

    Not finding != missing.

  73. Dan O'Brian said,

    December 18, 2008 at 10:43 am

    Gravatar

    the difference is irrelevant, whether you “can’t find it” or if it’s “missing” – I’m left wondering if the email ever existed in the first place, especially considering how often you use this same excuse.

  74. Roy Schestowitz said,

    December 18, 2008 at 10:49 am

    Gravatar

    It was about Go-OO and Mono. And no, Jo, it’s not who you think it is.

  75. AlexH said,

    December 19, 2008 at 3:18 am

    Gravatar

    @SubSonica: I do criticise them for patents (and other things) on a regular basis, including here.

    I just refuse to be cowed by their patents.

DecorWhat Else is New


  1. Links 1/12/2021: NixOS 21.11 Released

    Links for the day



  2. IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, November 30, 2021

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  3. Links 1/12/2021: Tux Paint 0.9.27 and WordPress 5.9 Beta

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  4. [Meme] EPO Administrative Council Believing EPO-Bribed 'Media' (IAM Still Shilling and Lying for Cash)

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  5. The EPO's Mythical “Gap” Has Been Found and It's Bonuses for People Who Use Pure Fiction to Steal From Patent Examiners

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  6. Video: Making the Internet a Better Place for People, Not Megacorporations

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  7. Links 30/11/2021: KDE Plasma 5.23.4, 4MLinux 38.0, Long GitHub Downtime, and Microsoft's CEO Selling Away Shares

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  8. A Concise Manifesto For Freedom-Respecting Internet

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  9. Freenode.net Becomes a 'Reddit Clone' and Freenode IRC is Back to Old Configurations After Flushing Down Decades' Worth of User/Channel Data and Locking/Shutting Out Longtime Users

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  10. Jack Dorsey's Decision is a Wake-up Call: Social Control Media is Just a Toxic Bubble

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  11. IRC Proceedings: Monday, November 29, 2021

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  12. Links 29/11/2021: NuTyX 21.10.5 and CrossOver 21.1.0

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  13. This Apt Has Super Dumbass Powers. Linus Sebastian and Pop_OS!

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  14. [Meme] Trying to Appease Provocateurs and Borderline Trolls

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  15. Centralised Git Hosting Has a Business Model Which is Hostile Towards Developers' Interests (in Microsoft's Case, It's an Attack on Reciprocal Licensing and Persistent Manipulation)

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  16. Links 29/11/2021: FWUPD's 'Best Known Configuration' and Glimpse at OpenZFS 3.0

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  17. President Biden Wants to Put Microsofter in Charge of the Patent Office, Soon to Penalise Patent Applicants Who Don't Use Microsoft's Proprietary Formats

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  18. Microsoft GitHub Exposé — Part VIII — Mr. Graveley's Long Career Serving Microsoft's Agenda (Before Hiring by Microsoft to Work on GitHub's GPL Violations Machine)

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  19. Dr. Andy Farnell on Teaching Cybersecurity in an Age of 'Fake Security'

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  20. IRC Proceedings: Sunday, November 28, 2021

    IRC logs for Sunday, November 28, 2021



  21. Links 29/11/2021: Linux 5.16 RC3 and Lots of Patent Catch-up

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  22. By 2022 0% of 'News' Coverage About Patents Will Be Actual Journalism (Patent Litigation Sector Has Hijacked the World Wide Web to Disseminate Self-Promotional Misinformation)

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  23. Trying to Appease Those Who Never Liked Free Software or Those Who Blindly Loved All Patent Monopolies to Begin With

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  24. Links 28/11/2021: Laravel 8.73 Released, GitHub Offline for Hours

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  25. IRC Proceedings: Saturday, November 27, 2021

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  26. Links 27/11/2021: Nvidia’s DLSS Hype and Why GNU/Linux Matters

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  27. [Meme] Linus Gabriel Sebastian Takes GNU/Linux for a (Tail)'Spin'

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  28. GNU/Linux is for Freedom and It'll Gain Many Users When (or Where) People Understand What Software (or Computing) Freedom Means

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  29. Amid Reports of Microsoft's Competition Crimes in Europe...

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  30. Is Linus Trolling the GNU/Linux Community?

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