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12.26.11

Should We Organise an Apple Boycott?

Posted in Apple, GNU/Linux, Google, Patents at 4:24 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Apple wants embargo on Linux devices

Cranes

Summary: A roundup of more news about Apple and why it might be reasonable to pressure the company to drop its lawsuits strategy, e.g. by means of boycott

APPLE continues to trouble the Linux/Android world with lawsuits and false allegations, even doctored ‘evidence’. The cult of Mr. Jobs loves to pretend that it invented the smartphones, CrunchPad-like tablets, and all things shiny.

Apple fan sites celebrate Apple patents, too. To name the new example:

On December 23, 2011, Apple filed for the trademark and icon for “Available on the App Store” under applications 302118690 in China and 010520054 in Europe.

That’s right, Europe as well. Over here, Apple has been working hard to embargo — not just sue — the competition. Apple disregards the notion of fair competition, which takes a lot of nerve for a company that built itself on knockoffs (e.g. Xerox PARC).

Over at NASDAQ.com there is a community post which says: ‘Former Apple chief executive Steve Jobs, who died in October, ardently believed Android copied much of Apple’s patented design elements, including multi-touch, swiping and its apps arrangement, according to Walter Isaacson’s “Steve Jobs.” Jobs told Isaacson he would “spend my last dying breath if I need to, and I will spend every penny of Apple’s $40 billion in the bank, to right this wrong.”‘

“Yet More Patent Idiocy” called it a columnist at Mother Jones, who noted:

Looking for yet more reasons to feel an all-consuming contempt for software patents and the POS companies that try to enforce them? Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Apple Computer’s jihad against the rest of the world’s smartphone makers…

Given the latest actions from Apple we cannot help recommending that people buy nothing from Apple. Boycott the company for being a threat to the IT landscape and also to common sense.

Apple used to be a lot more benign and I even used a Mac at work. But when Apple started the legal assaults (starting with HTC) it made it clear that it was a frantic embargo company and not a producer. Based on a very recent ruling, Apple somehow managed to get a ‘victory’ against HTC, but how much of a victory is it when you become reliant on lawsuits? Here is some more coverage of this. The Telegraph uses Christmas Eve to attack Google with Microsoft/Apple accusations and general smear campaign (the Microsoft lobbyist is cheering this on) and to quote the opening part of the aricle with an inflammatory and reckless headline:

Google’s executive chairman should know. Android, his firm’s smartphone operating system, which is up against Apple’s iOS and Microsoft’s Windows Phone, is under heavy fire from all sides. The best-selling software – along with the Samsung, HTC and Motorola hardware on which it runs – is accused in courts worldwide of plundering the original ideas of others.

There is also an interesting article in CNN and Edward J. Black writes for the Huff & Puff that “Patent Balance Needed to Help End the Smartphone Patent Wars”. To quote: “Smartphones are at the center of a new series of “patent wars,” in which technology companies are spending billions to stockpile patent arsenals. Consumers are the biggest losers in this war, as tech companies focus on costly litigation strategies instead of innovation. Some are acquiring patents to attack competitors, while others are trying to bolster their defenses.”

“The goal here is to defend, not to offend.”In this age when software patents are under constant legal scrutiny we regret to see Apple using those sorts of patents in anti-competitive ways. Apple does not always get its way and to quote the latest example: ‘Apple loses one in its iPad tablet war On ZDNet, Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols gives an update on the company’s battle with Samsung. “All I really know is that while it looks like the idiotic tablet design war may be coming to an end, with patents like the one Apple got, we can count on software patents getting in the way of true programming, design and engineering innovation for decades still to come,” he writes. What’s your opinion?”‘

What are our readers’ opinions? Boycott Apple? Perhaps with an ultimatum tied to litigation? The goal here is to defend, not to offend.

“FSF did some anti-Apple campaigns too. Personally I worry more about Apple because they have user loyalty; Microsoft doesn’t.”

Bradley M. Kuhn (SFLC)

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32 Comments

  1. walterbyrd said,

    December 26, 2011 at 2:08 pm

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    Apple has become pure evil, and a boycott would be great. Unfortunately, I doubt many readers of this site use Apple to begin with.

    I wonder if you could get an Apple boycott article posted on slashdot?

    During the Godaddy incident, some slashdot posters were asking why nobody was proposing an Apple boycott?

    Michael Reply:

    I use Apple products and have no plans on boycotting them.

    While they are hardly blameless in this battle with Google / Android, it is not as if they started it. If anything, boycotting Google / Android would make more sense – but even that is not something I would join.

    boybunny Reply:

    Wow, you are fanatical, aren’t you Michael. Reply after reply blindly defending your religious idol. You are one of only two fanatics defending Apple.

    You may not join it, but I already am. I am the owner of half a dozen Macs (desktops and laptops). I own a 64 GB iPad2 (shitty interface, shitty all round, shitty hardware, about to send this second unit for replacement because this NEW replacement unit has only two hours charge at best). I already encourage everyone to use their brains and consider the REAL issues with Apple hardware and software before buying. I warn them of fanatics like you Michael. Fanatics like you Michael will lie to the nth degree to get someone to buy into the church/cult of Apple. Yes Michael, you fanatics are actually a negative in the purchasing decision of the majority. You are enough to scare anyone away from the platform.

    I will do everything I can t encourage others to join the Apple boycott.

    Michael Reply:

    Wow, you are fanatical, aren’t you Michael.

    I feel very strongly at looking at evidence and using logic. I tend not to use the term “fanatical”, but if you wish to say I am “fanatical” when it comes to pushing such things I will not argue.

    Reply after reply blindly defending your religious idol. You are one of only two fanatics defending Apple.

    I have no idea what you are talking about: religious idol? One of two “fanatics defending Apple”? There are many, many people who called this BS out for what it is – read the Slashdot story on it. This article was rightfully ripped to shreds for being poorly written.

    You may not join it, but I already am.

    You should buy or not buy what works for you. I have no problem with that. Curious, though, without this “boycott” how many products were planning on buying from Apple? How many sales did they lose?

    My guess: none. Not from you.

    I am the owner of half a dozen Macs (desktops and laptops). I own a 64 GB iPad2 (shitty interface, shitty all round, shitty hardware, about to send this second unit for replacement because this NEW replacement unit has only two hours charge at best).

    And it took this boycott to make you decide to not buy more Apple stuff? I *seriously* doubt it.

    In any case, I cannot speak for your specific situation, but I can say I have two iMacs and an iPod Touch (came with one of the Macs in a promotion). All work well, *but* I did have problems with one of the iMacs and one of my keyboards died. Apple send people to my house to repair the Mac and send me the keyboard with no issues whatsoever. Still, having “bad” stuff is a problem… but Apple has a low DOA rate and the highest user satisfaction ratings in the industries they are in (at least desktop, smart phone, and tablet… I think they do in the Apple TV type devices, too, but I would have to double check). In other words: they do an amazing job making some of the best devices in many categories… which is not to say their products are without flaws or tradeoffs you or I might not like.

    I already encourage everyone to use their brains and consider the REAL issues with Apple hardware and software before buying.

    Ditto – hence the reason I find this “boycott” to be so silly. But do what you think is right.

    I warn them of fanatics like you Michael. Fanatics like you Michael will lie to the nth degree to get someone to buy into the church/cult of Apple.

    Yeah, I am real pushy – by what works for you. And I have clients on OS X, Windows, and Linux… based on *my* suggestions. The idea that I push Apple stuff in some fanatical way is not supported by the evidence. But I am not the topic here – your are doing an old trolling trick of trying to put me on the defensive to obfuscate the issue. Please, focus on issues… not your fantasies of me.

    With that said, if I make a statement you disagree with, say one where I push a product or company you think I should not, calling me on *that* is completely reasonable. Asking me to back my claims is completely reasonable. Making up stories about me pushing Mac products in a fanatical way, when such claims are clearly contrary to facts, is merely BS obfuscation on your part. I am very clear in my view on this: use what works for you… Windows, OS X, desktop Linux, iOS, Android… whatever.

    Yes Michael, you fanatics are actually a negative in the purchasing decision of the majority. You are enough to scare anyone away from the platform.

    Yawn. More attempts to put me on the defensive by making up stories about me. Boring. Again, if you disagree with my *views* that is fine… if you think I make an incorrect claim push me to support it… but such silliness from you only hurts your credibility (except with Roy and crew who do not care about things such as support and evidence and data).

    I will do everything I can t encourage others to join the Apple boycott.

    Best of luck to you… but without a reason and without logic, which you currently lack, you will only get those who follow their emotions in making such decisions. But, I grant, that is a fairly large number of people. Or, maybe (though this seems less likely), you will change your current pattern and focus on logic and not emotions and your wishes. Either way, I wish you well.

    boybunny Reply:

    Poor Michael. Poke a fanatic with a stick and he goes all crazy.

    I will not mass quote you. I can hold things called memories in my mind, so I generally do not need to use quotes as a crutch.

    I point to early research putting mac fanatics into an MRI machine as well as Religious fanatics. The first results were released and screamed at by Apple religious fanatics six months ago. It found that the same are of the brain that activates when shown religious fanatics are shown images of their religious belief is exactly the same area that lights up in the brains of Apple fanatics when show Apple images. this means that APple fanatics are truly religious fanatics. Apple has become a church to their cultists. Michael, how often a day do you pray to your Apple Gods? Just curious.

    I have already not purchased one iPhone, and three Mac Desktops. I own a graphics studio, and I have migrated all the work onto Windows machines that are now, far better suited for DTP, Video, Art, and 3D. It is a side benefit of moving the OSX machines to internet access only machines in my studio. You see, Windows has three times the graphics Apps (seven or eight times the Video Apps) then OSX. There are whole parts of the industry that have no software on OSX. Much of the rest of the industry only have one or two options on OSX. Support software is not there at all. No metadata software (Apple refused to add any interface for ADDING metadata to image and video files in bulk) and no mass file handling (no finder is shit for mass file handling, and there are no serious options for sorting tens of thousands of image files).

    Beyond myself, I have in the past six months convinced several people not to buy Apple after showing them Apple hardware in action and then showing them the alternatives (I own an iPad 2, but also an Android tablet, and four graphics tablets {pen based} that run Windows 7 {whine all you want about how that proves I love Microsoft… Microsoft are dirty sphincter boys, almost as bad as Apple… you produce ANY OSX tablet with accurate pen input … not “fat finger” DIY pens, and I may have an alternative… well, since I am now boycotting Apple products I wouldn’t buy the alternative anyway}). I tally one Desktop, two laptops and three iPads in the past six months. One person I hate immensely (for good reason… attempting to damage my family) I recommended an iPad. I felt it would punish the person.

    Aww. Yes, there are MANY reasons to boycott Apple products. In fact I have now lost count. It is hard to list all the reasons why others should not buy Apple products when I tell them that Android, Microsoft products or … well a piece of string and two tin cans is better than an iPhone. Most people do not have the hours it requires for me to list most of Apples problems. I need to cherry pick the better ones for non techies. A blanket boycott will simplify my task. Less to explain to people who do not realise that Apple offers very little, uses (and is losing in many courts around the world) immorally the court system, and are hypocrites themselves because Apple has actually invented NOTHING. not one thin in Apples history. I have been in computing for the entire time, and Apple has never once produces anything unique. Their main targets for copying has been the Amiga, Atari ST, BBC Acorn, Braun, Samsung, and Microsoft. You can not tell me one single “Apple innovation” that I cannot give you proof that Apple stole it from an earlier product (many of them patented). I have rebutted fanatics like yourself more times than I can list, so if you wish me to type up an 8000 word response proving that Steve Jobs was a thief, then go ahead, and challenge me to.

    Now you state that Apple come to your house. That is nice for Americans. This is one of the reasons Apple is doing poorly in that little market called “the rest of the world”. Out here in the rest of the world Apple treated its customers with contempt. Forcing American spell checkers on us, giving us no service, charging us sometimes in some markets three times what Americans were paying. One iBook I purchased for my wife in 2004 was DOA. We sent it back for service. Three weeks later we got a DOA machine back with cracked screen, cracked case (not to mention a 4mm gap along one side of the case where they SHOULD have replaced the screws, but had not), there were three internal screws loose inside the machine… and Apple refused to repair it again because they had already “repaired it”. That was $2000 US down the drain… yes $2000 for an iBook because Apple was overcharging us for their faulty POS. This sort of shit behaviour always made it hard for us to keep buying OSX machines. But we did to maintain compatibility across the network. Apple has very little support (less than 4% of the market) outside USA. Apple deserves those low numbers.

    You have clients on all platforms. Does that prove that you are recommending all platforms? No it doesn’t. I have one friend in the graphics field. He purchased an OSX machine on my recommendation six years ago. He just purchased another OSX machine against my recommendation. I helped him chose the best OSX machine he could get, but I know that he will be enviously looking at my Windows machines within six months because apple has fallen off the CUDA radar. Open CL will work, but are literally five years behind CUDA in tech and takeup. My Windows workstations are currently running over 2000 CUDA cores each, and every piece of graphics software I use utilises those cores. On Apple, my friend has ~200 CUDA cores, and only has DaVinci Resolve Lite to use on those cores via Open CL. I can use all of my 2000+ CUDA cores on all my software using CUDA and Open CL. I MAY in the coming months buy DaVinci Resolve on Windows when it is released. Even Apple fanatics like Black Magic have decided it is time to leave the sinking ship.

    I have no intention of calling you on any of your lies. Apple fanatics ignore irrefutable evidence against Apple, and respond with larger and larger lies. Apple fanatics and Apple themselves are not above forging evidence in Photoshop.

    You have already been caught out lying about the number of Apple comments on Slashdot. Then you accuse ME of running on emotions and without logic. Sorry, but I ask any readers to find the Slashdot story about this blog calling for a boycott and ask them to count the number of INDIVIDUAL commenters that are time stamped earlier than this post I am making now. Apple fanatics often go back to the hive to call for people to flood comment boards, so be careful about checking the time stamps.

    Michael Reply:

    Poor Michael. Poke a fanatic with a stick and he goes all crazy.

    More name calling from you. No evidence of my actually doing anything wrong or saying anything incorrect.

    Where do you even disagree with me? You will not say – you just call me names and make insults and accusations.

    I will not mass quote you. I can hold things called memories in my mind, so I generally do not need to use quotes as a crutch.

    Just quote the comments where you think I am wrong. I have no problem with that.

    And here are your quotes and comments about me:

     
     
     
     
     

    None. You have *no* evidence. Nothing. You talked about brain scans on Mac “fanatics” without comparisons to, say, those who are “fanatical” about Linux. In other words: meaningless. And, of course, you claim to be able to keep things in your mind, but you clearly have forgotten how I advocate informed computing – which includes using what works best for you: whether that be Windows, OS X, desktop Linux, Android, iOS, or something else. That fact just slipped your mind, eh? Or was is just not convenient for your insulting narrative designed to change the topic?

    So let’s get back to the topic: the request for a boycott on Apple. I have said I will not join but I have no problem with your or others buying what you want to and avoiding what you do not want to. While the “evidence” presented against Apple is absurd and poorly thought out, boycott who you wish.

    If you really want to focus on the topic let’s look at the evidence used in the article… and not your name calling. Are you able to rise to my level and focus on evidence and logic and data… or will you just repeatedly call me names? I suspect the latter, but I would love to be proved wrong.

    I have already not purchased one iPhone, and three Mac Desktops. I own a graphics studio, and I have migrated all the work onto Windows machines that are now, far better suited for DTP, Video, Art, and 3D.

    In other words: you are using tools you think will serve you best. Good. I have no problem with that. I do not know your specific work so I cannot even say if I agree or disagree, but even if I disagreed, it is your business and your choice. No offense to me.

    Curious: why not move to desktop Linux? Is it not suitable for the work you do?

    Aww. Yes, there are MANY reasons to boycott Apple products.

    Such as? You talked about how you selected other products because you thought they served a purpose better. Sounds like you are following my “fanatical” idea to use what works best for you.

    Though it is odd how you keep talking about how the products with the highest user satisfaction rates do not work for you. In some cases it is because you are doing specialized tasks you feel those products do not handle well – makes complete sense. In other cases though, you seem to just be anti-Apple based on emotions… which is your choice. I have no problem with that, either.

    In fact I have now lost count. It is hard to list all the reasons why others should not buy Apple products when I tell them that Android, Microsoft products or … well a piece of string and two tin cans is better than an iPhone.

    See: emotion based from you… remember, the iPhone earns higher user satisfaction ratings than do any of the other products you list (well, I have not seen comparisons with the string system… :) )

    Most people do not have the hours it requires for me to list most of Apples problems.

    How long does it take you to explain you have an irrational emotional reaction?

    I need to cherry pick the better ones for non techies. A blanket boycott will simplify my task.

    See: your “task”… to make people follow your preferences. Even people you do not know.

    That is not rational. You focus on emotions and not logic / reasoning.

    Less to explain to people who do not realise that Apple offers very little, uses (and is losing in many courts around the world) immorally the court system, and are hypocrites themselves because Apple has actually invented NOTHING.

    And you make claims which are clearly contrary to evidence. Here: test your idea – do a search for the most innovative companies of the last 20 years. I bet Apple is in the top 5 of *all* the lists you find. To believe you are correct you must think you have discovered something which, essentially, all experts who look at such things have been fooled: you think of yourself as knowing better than the people at Forbes and the New York Times and pretty much everyone else.

    But you cannot, I bet, explain why they *all* get it so wrong.

    You are focused on your emotions and not on the evidence.

    not one thin in Apples history. I have been in computing for the entire time, and Apple has never once produces anything unique.

    Given how Apple has been amazingly influential in desktop computing, smart phones, tablets, music players, cell phone handset relationships with carriers, music industry, etc., your comment goes contrary to evidence.

    Their main targets for copying has been the Amiga, Atari ST, BBC Acorn, Braun, Samsung, and Microsoft. You can not tell me one single “Apple innovation” that I cannot give you proof that Apple stole it from an earlier product (many of them patented).

    Hmmm, here are just a few that come to mind:
    * Double clicking
    * The File, Edit, … menu structure common to most GUIs
    * Windows that “self-redraw” when the top window is moved
    * Mice with diagonal movement
    * An MP3 ecosystem with a music player, software, store, and connection to the top music providers
    * A major music store where most if not all music is DRM free
    * A smart phone with a touch interface that includes almost all input
    * A tablet with a multi-touch interface and little other input… with a complete touch-based “language” to allow for ease of use
    * PDF Services
    * Proxy icons
    * Media Browser
    * Automator

    On and on and on. Doing a brief search for Apple innovation you can find many, many more examples.

    I have rebutted fanatics like yourself more times than I can list, so if you wish me to type up an 8000 word response proving that Steve Jobs was a thief, then go ahead, and challenge me to.

    See: more name calling from you… but I accept your challenge. Show where the above innovations were not from Apple.

    Now you state that Apple come to your house. That is nice for Americans. This is one of the reasons Apple is doing poorly in that little market called “the rest of the world”. Out here in the rest of the world Apple treated its customers with contempt. Forcing American spell checkers on us, giving us no service, charging us sometimes in some markets three times what Americans were paying.

    Ah, that explains their earning of the highest user satisfaction ratings in the industry. LOL! In any case, Apple provides service in other parts of the world than the US. In my case, there is no Apple store near me – which is why they sent someone to my house. If I lived near an Apple store I might have had to go there (or not… I do not know).

    You have clients on all platforms. Does that prove that you are recommending all platforms? No it doesn’t.

    As I noted, I have clients on different platforms based on *my* suggestions. Again: your silly name calling and false narrative of my being a “fanatic” is just an attempt to put me on the defensive and obfuscate the issue. Let us not pretend otherwise.

    I have no intention of calling you on any of your lies.

    We already covered how many you can quote:

     
     
     
     
     

    None. You cannot. So be it. You like to try to put me on the defensive. I get that.

    Apple fanatics ignore irrefutable evidence against Apple, and respond with larger and larger lies. Apple fanatics and Apple themselves are not above forging evidence in Photoshop.

    More insults and accusations. It lowers your credibility… but I still am happy to accept evidence from you.

    You have already been caught out lying about the number of Apple comments on Slashdot.

    You made this up.

    Then you accuse ME of running on emotions and without logic.

    See above for some examples of you doing so.

    Sorry, but I ask any readers to find the Slashdot story about this blog calling for a boycott and ask them to count the number of INDIVIDUAL commenters that are time stamped earlier than this post I am making now. Apple fanatics often go back to the hive to call for people to flood comment boards, so be careful about checking the time stamps.

    You are making an assumption about folks who prefer Macs and assuming those who prefer Linux are not going to act in the same way. Remember, Slashdot has a lot of Linux advocates and few Mac advocates… and yet of the first several posts we find:

    Post 1: “Can this be any more biased…”

    Very much talks about the absurdity of the call for a boycott and goes into quite a bit of detail as to why the post is absurd.

    Post 2: “Should be: “For some reason Android advocates who trashed Microsoft for the same behavior ignore it when it comes from a multibillion dollar advertising company that happens to push Linux.”

    Again, very much noting the absurdity of the boycott request.

    Post 3: “Wow, I’m sorry you and the above got modded down so much.”

    Speaks about how the post should not have received a negative reaction… again, showing at least tacit approval of noting the absurdity of the call for a boycott.

    From there is you skim you will see opinions both ways… though you also see people repeating false information (such as Apple claiming to have rights on rounded rectangles). If you want to go through the current 519 comments on Slashdot have fun… frankly I do not care.

    I skimmed the first few… and they clearly show people are not falling for the boycott claim based on this rather poorly made post.

    boybunny Reply:

    Michael, I call it as I see it. You are brain dead, and if, like you claim, you have any “clients” I pity the morons for not finding anyone more intelligent and honest to deal with.

    You claim that you recommend whatever is best for the system. Then you contradict yourself by asking me why, as a graphics professional and the owner of a graphics studio, why I would not work on Linux. It is the tools stupid! Linux has no tools. Well it has three or four tools with interfaces for graphics work… and a pile of render engines with no interfaces like Renderman. But Renderman is available on Windows as are all major renderers. Why limit myself? Why limit myself to three or four graphics apps when there are dozens of options on Windows? There is not even ONE video editor, and no effects editors for video on Linux. I have encouraged Linux people to stop circle jerking and to listen to graphics professionals now for 12 years. But few have and the Linux ground is barren even today. This is after Hollywood Studios held a conference over a decade ago and decided Linux was their platform of choice for all graphics development. It has not happened. Linux also has no stable CUDA system, and is still playing catch up with a lot of side systems (where is the universal FireWire support? Not to mention Firewire 800 and Firewire 1600). Where is the Linux tablet with accurate pen input for sketching? Linux does not even have decent Wacom support. Not saying Wacom is good. Wacom is like Apple. Running on their fake reputation. Wacom tablets are crap. If I were to go back to a tablet, it would be to a cheap Chinese tablet. They are more accurate and responsive than Wacom. Even Wacom Cintiqs are crap. Honestly. The one I purchased was so far off accurate, and unable to be corrected that my wife has been using it for web browsing for the past three years. Accuracy is not critical for web browsing… it is for art though. I ask business people that sell shitty tablets like the Wacom and others “WOuld you do your company accounts on a new calculator that consistently gave results 5% out in random directions?” Their answer is universally “No”. I then ask them why they believe it is acceptable for a graphics company to put up with 5% inaccuracy for every brush stroke in their mission critical applications.

    You see, if you knew anything about what graphics clients wanted or needed, you would not approach Linux (or iOS, Andriod and Windows Mobile) at all for your imaginary “clients”. OSX is almost in that group. Though, through the good graces of Adobe, and a few other art platforms like Art Rage, Corel Painter and Sketchpad (NOT Sketchpad for iOS or Android as Sketchpad on these platforms bares no resemblance to a professional art tool) they remain barely viable as a graphics platform. But you claim to “advocate informed computing”. Yeah, I don’t know who you are, it seems like you believe that I should know. I do know, from this thread, that you have nothing to do with the word “informed”. You have one message for everyone. “Apple is great” just before your iPhone explodes taking all passers by with you.

    http://www.tuaw.com/2011/05/17/bbc-loving-apple-looks-like-a-religion-to-an-mri-scan/

    No proof… yeah I have no proof. If you want more links to the details of the early study, then I am sure I can scratch up the links for you and every other reader.

    But Apple has high satisfaction ratings. The highest in the industry. Hey, this is a half truth. Highest satisfaction ratings IN USA. The numbers exclude the rest of the world. What would the numbers be if we excluded USA and asked people their satisfaction of Apple? Oh, a second point, Catholics have a 100% satisfaction rate with the Catholic church (the ones that don’t leave). Muslims have a 100% satisfaction rating with their religion. Buddhists have a 100% satisfaction rating with their religion. See where this is going? All religious people have a 100% satisfaction rating of their belief. Apple religious people have a near 100% satisfaction rating of Apple. Strange that. I would have thought that Apple fanatics may be less biased. What is my satisfaction rating, after nearly 12 years owning APple products? About 1% personally. At least my MBP (17″) is still running so I can type this post. I will need to spell check it first on another machine because OSX spell checking for anything other than American is pathetic. Though I may have to revise that 1% down because OSX kills HDDs if you actually USE them for anything other than light web browsing (something that most Apple fanatics never do as they only buy their Apple products to pose with). I have had 14 HDDs go down on me on 12 OSX machines in 12 years. I have had to replace the HDD in this machine already after 5 months of owning it… AND in the past week, the new HDD has been giving signs that OSX is about to permanently kill this HDD as well. I now view it as a cost of doing real work on OSX machines. You need to regularly replace the drives before you lose data. But, gain, the Apple cultists shout you down… I have even had one cultist hack my accounts and spread lies under my account names because I DARED point this flaw of OSX out in a public forum. Best to attack the messenger than to ask Apple to fix their software issue… because Gods cannot have flaws.

    Apple may be at the top of every list you find in recent times. But those studies again are American only. Where usage can be up to 20% of the population. Those studies exclude the rest of the world where usage is lower than 4% of the population. Most of those studies are about stupid things like “brand recognition”. Yeah, people recognise the Apple logo. Twenty years ago, Microsoft was on the top of that list. They did nothing to innovate either (well a little more than Apple) and it did nothing for them in the long run when the population learned slowly of their dirty tactics. Apple are the ones playing dirty today. It may take five years, but playing dirty, Apple is on a slow decline. So please tell the WHOLE story. Not these half truths. You can have 100 studies that tell us that Apple fanatics love Apple. It sounds great until you realise that the study was rigged from the start as it excluded the majority of people that dislike Apple.

    Now onto the meaty bits. You believe that Apple has been “Amazingly Influential”. No. It has been an effective advertiser. It is a marketing company for other peoples innovations. Did Apple invent the scroll wheel? Apple fanatics will tell you that Apple invented that innovation. I would like to point out that Apple licensed and purchased the scroll wheel units from the company that actually invented it. They were tied up by the contract with Apple and could not sell to Apples competitors. The ones that created the MP3Player industry. Apple did not invent the touch screen. Apple buy them from Samsung. I wonder if Samsung will renew those contracts? Did you realise that Steve Jobs himself in late 1985 sent a panicked memo around Apple stating that Apple was dead. He had seen the Amiga he knew Apple was beaten in OS and hardware. Fortunately for him, the CEO for Commodore left and they replaced him with a series of morons. Apple were able to run advertising and FUD against the Amiga. It was liars like yourself that insisted that “No one needs to multitask, if you can not use more than one program at a time, then the computer does not need to do more than one thing at a time”… that WAS the repeated statements from Apple fanatics like yourself. Maybe you uttered that phrase. When Apple copied the Amiga with OSX (though the Amiga could pre emotively multitask multi threads… something that OSX still can not do today) Apple fanatics changed their story instantly and claimed multitasking was the way of the future. Apple fanatics also claimed that you did not need colour graphics. Strange… that was at the same time Apple fanatics were lying about Macs being used in a series of Movies and TV shows… I was in the industry… No Macs were used. All lies. Amigas were used in most TV shows, and a few movies. That is verifiable. The only show that used Macs, and that was ONLY for compositing the 3G rendered graphics from the Amiga workstations was “Robocop the series”. “The Amiga is only a games system” that was wrong in every way. The Amiga invented the term DTV (Desk Top Video). It was used in every Animation studio. It was the industry standard for Art half a decade before Photoshop was in Beta. It was an audio machine (Techno was invented on the Amiga because it was the easiest music to produce on the new MOD/MED music standard… an Amiga innovation)… and after all that, it could play games so well, that it was often used as the motherboard of real Arcade Machines in the early 90′s. The only commercial Virtual Reality machine called the “Virtuality” ran on Amiga 2000 workstations. Where was the Apple Mac? It was displaying black and white pixels. Not greyscale… the pixels were either black or white. But Apple fanatics had to try to destroy the reputation of their competition with any lies possible. It seems the tradition continues today. Android is the current target of Apple fanatics lies and deceptions.

    You have a simple mind.

    * Double clicking

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVw86emu-K0

    The Xerox PARC may have had double clicking. Not a lot of info about small details like that these days. But if they had not, then they utilised their THREE button mouse to both select and open files. If Apple invented double clicking at all, it was specifically to overcome their insufficient hardware.

    * The File, Edit, … menu structure common to most GUIs

    The layout of the menu? Are you serious? The Atari ST and the Amiga both had different menu layouts and worked plenty fine without Apples crappy menu system! I use Apples crappy menus every day, and I wish every single day to have an Amiga on my desk. I believe Apple should be PUNISHED for their menu system, not praised for it!

    * Windows that “self-redraw” when the top window is moved

    Sorry, but I see in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVw86emu-K0 windows self redrawing when moved on top of other windows. This is on the Xerox PARC system released in 1981 two YEARS before Apple stole the UI for their LISA system.

    * Mice with diagonal movement

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVw86emu-K0

    Hey, Zerox PARC seems to predate that claim. 4:20 in, watch the mouse pointer move diagonally!

    * An MP3 ecosystem with a music player, software, store, and connection to the top music providers

    Thats not an invention! That is an online store! Something may other companies created years before Apple. Talk to Amazon… they own most of the online store patents that Apple has to pay to use.

    Can we keep this on innovations and inventions please. Not who has the slickest marketing.

    * A major music store where most if not all music is DRM free

    Arbitrary word “major”. There were many online music stores before the iTunes store. Some large and some not so large. Apple became the largest because of slick marketing and a devoted following of “Believers” who, after spending three years of complaining about the cost of Creative and other brand MP3 players, were all willing to spend THREE TIMES the amount on an Apple branded MP3 player. Hypocrisy at its finest. Again, please give us innovations and inventions… NOT marketing.

    * A smart phone with a touch interface that includes almost all input

    Strange… sounds like PALM phones to me. I was doing that sort of thing on PALM. Oh, it also had PEN input… so that disqualifies it as innovative. Sorry. But lack of features is obviously an innovation! (sarcasm)

    * A tablet with a multi-touch interface and little other input… with a complete touch-based “language” to allow for ease of use

    Microsoft actually invented most of the multitouch interface in the late 90′s… back when Apple were almost bankrupt and needed millions of bailout money from Microsoft. There were numerous Windows tablets close to a decade before the iPad, but with the tech at the time, had low battery life. The battery life made them unattractive. Apple did not invent the tablet, or touch interface. Get over it.

    * PDF Services

    Call that an innovation?! I was doing screen grabs of the net years before that “feature”. So Apple used PDF. It is not editable… I tried. You can’t copy and paste from the PDFs it creates… I tried. My old IFF or GIF screen grabs were as useful as Apples PDFs. No innovation. Unless I claim that you can create a screen grab of a web page in VIDEO! Using a video file you can scroll the entire length of a web site. Wow! I am a real inventor! Someone pass me the patent application forms! (sarcasm overload). You forget, you are talking to someone who has had over a decade of 12 hour days on OSX. You can not BS me like a beginner into believing that it is some form of innovation. It was only a change of file format.. one with no extra usability at all.

    * Proxy icons

    Proxy Icons. Clever idea people had on the Amiga. Apple made it slick. But using iconx (a library) on the Amiga, you could dump an icon file (on the Amiga icons were never built into the document or program, they were always independent files) anywhere and using a simple pointing script, you could point the icon to open any program along any path.

    * Media Browser

    Sorry, but media browsing was invented on the Amiga. In fact the Amiga created a system of standard files with associated libraries. When you clicked on one or many files, they would open in a unified interface using the associated library to open the file in the background. This was a standard WB 2.04 feature.

    * Automator

    Steve Jobs has spent the past decade stripping the Amiga of all the features he had people insult and run down. This is one of them Look up AREXX. A system wide automation system. Created by a third party in the late 80′s, it was purchased and added as a system wide feature in WB2.04. Automator, like all Steve Jobs bullshit, does not work half as well as the Amiga original. The Amiga could automate every single tool in every third party program, every system tool and program, every library… and share data among them all. This is one of the tools I was excited about when Apple announced it… I miss AREXX a LOT. Unfortunately, Automator is no AREXX… it is the retarded child of Apple.

    Want to list some more? Not one Apple fanatic has ever let sleeping dogs lie. Every single one believes their own propaganda and insists on having me dredge up the TRUTH from the past. Every single one goes away limping wondering how they could have been so wrong.

    You lost on the number of individual posters on Slashdot, so you are quoting the CONTENT of the first posts? The INCORRECT content of the first posts that was posted by angry enraged Apple cultists? I am surprised! Did you also quote the rebuttals of each of those posts? No? I am surprised! (sarcasm) … Please, stop being a Mac cultist. You have not realised, even at this late point, that your behaviour is just proving to everyone that you can not trust an Apple fanatic at all. The way you disprove my claims that every Apple religious fanatic is dishonest and lies constantly to cover Apples flaws, is to stop lying. Try to be honest in your dealings for once. Stop trying to “interpret” the message in favour of Apple because you need to defend your religion. Stop with the half truths, the manipulations of the message. Or, alternately, keep doing it… it just makes my hobby of turning people away from Apple all that much easier. When people catch you out in deception like this, they can not trust your assertions that Apple is the best system, and that Apple is only defending itself, and that Apple invented everything.

    Michael Reply:

    Michael, I call it as I see it. You are brain dead, and if, like you claim, you have any “clients” I pity the morons for not finding anyone more intelligent and honest to deal with.

    When I speak of your emotional responses, that is a great example. You post insults and accusations – working to put me on the defensive and trying to find a way to feel better about yourself. A shame. If you could pull yourself out of such a mode you might be able to think more clearly.

    You claim that you recommend whatever is best for the system. Then you contradict yourself by asking me why, as a graphics professional and the owner of a graphics studio, why I would not work on Linux.

    There is no contradiction with my asking you why you made the choices you make. Your choices. Not mine.

    It is the tools stupid! Linux has no tools. Well it has three or four tools with interfaces for graphics work… and a pile of render engines with no interfaces like Renderman. But Renderman is available on Windows as are all major renderers. Why limit myself? Why limit myself to three or four graphics apps when there are dozens of options on Windows?

    I speak of how, for many things, desktop Linux is not well suited for many types of work and Roy and crew just respond by calling me names and changing the topic. Good to see you are in basic agreement with me on this. But even though we are in basic agreement on this, you still post such things as:

    You see, if you knew anything about what graphics clients wanted or needed, you would not approach Linux (or iOS, Andriod and Windows Mobile) at all for your imaginary “clients”.

    See: insults and attempts to put me on the defensive – these things say much more about you than they do about me.

    OSX is almost in that group. Though, through the good graces of Adobe, and a few other art platforms like Art Rage, Corel Painter and Sketchpad (NOT Sketchpad for iOS or Android as Sketchpad on these platforms bares no resemblance to a professional art tool) they remain barely viable as a graphics platform.

    Apple does well in these areas… and not by the “good graces” of Adobe… Adobe makes a lot of money on their Apple products.

    But you claim to “advocate informed computing”. Yeah, I don’t know who you are, it seems like you believe that I should know.

    You are the one who is making up stories about me. Good for you to admit you have no idea if your stories are true.

    I do know, from this thread, that you have nothing to do with the word “informed”. You have one message for everyone. “Apple is great” just before your iPhone explodes taking all passers by with you.

    See: just more made up stories from you. No quotes from me where I say anything even remotely like what you attribute to me.

    But Apple has high satisfaction ratings. The highest in the industry.

    Yes. They have earned these ratings.

    Hey, this is a half truth. Highest satisfaction ratings IN USA. The numbers exclude the rest of the world.

    Can you show this? Looking now I find these:

    http://goo.gl/eTTwa

    Nothing about the surveys being US only, and they mention the global market. Still, they are not specific. Maybe I will look more later – but it is your claim and I would love to see you try to back it. If you can this would show you doing as I ask – using evidence and data to back your views. I would find it quite commendable if you were to do so.

    Oh, a second point, Catholics have a 100% satisfaction rate with the Catholic church (the ones that don’t leave). Muslims have a 100% satisfaction rating with their religion. Buddhists have a 100% satisfaction rating with their religion. See where this is going?

    Yes: you make up absurd “stats” on the spot because you have little faith in real data.

    All religious people have a 100% satisfaction rating of their belief. Apple religious people have a near 100% satisfaction rating of Apple.

    Apple is a company. Apple products are products. I do not care why you have a problem with this concept.

    Strange that. I would have thought that Apple fanatics may be less biased. What is my satisfaction rating, after nearly 12 years owning APple products? About 1% personally. At least my MBP (17″) is still running so I can type this post.

    You start with the idea that Apple users are “religious fanatics” then admit you are a user of Apple products and claim to not be what you described your own group to be.

    You are being irrational.

    Apple has some strong fans – they have earned it by making excellent products. I recently bought some super glue – I bought a slightly more expensive brand because the company has proved themselves to me with other products and I have had problems with the cheaper brand. This does not make me a fanatic… this makes me a wise consumer who has learned to trust a company. When I used the glue it lived up to my desires – but if it had not I would have bought another brand next time. If I were to be asked to complete a survey on this glue company I would rate them highly.

    Why would you list such decision making as a form of fanaticism?

    Apple may be at the top of every list you find in recent times. But those studies again are American only.

    Again: I would love to see you try to support this. Seems to be an unsupported assumption on your part.

    So please tell the WHOLE story. Not these half truths. You can have 100 studies that tell us that Apple fanatics love Apple. It sounds great until you realise that the study was rigged from the start as it excluded the majority of people that dislike Apple.

    You are dishonestly pretending the surveys seek out “fanatics” of one company but not others. This is not backed by the evidence provided.

    Again: you are making things up based on your emotional desires. That may convince some but it is not meaningful for me. I look to evidence and data and real support.

    Now onto the meaty bits. You believe that Apple has been “Amazingly Influential”.

    Of course they have. Do you have any contrary evidence? Remember, I have listed influential products and technologies and we can look at the top rated companies in terms of influence and innovation. Apple will be near the top of the list in all (or just about all).

    Your “counter” is to say they advertise, as if that was in question. Of course they do. Most companies do. This does not make them any less innovative (though it might make them more influential, I suppose).

    Did Apple invent the scroll wheel? Apple fanatics will tell you that Apple invented that innovation.

    I have never seen that claim. I suspect you made this up.

    Apple did not invent the touch screen.

    Nor have I seen anyone suggest they have. You are arguing a straw man.

    It was liars like yourself that insisted that “No one needs to multitask, if you can not use more than one program at a time, then the computer does not need to do more than one thing at a time”… that WAS the repeated statements from Apple fanatics like yourself.

    Again, you make things up about me. Why? I never said any such thing. Nor, really, can I recall anyone else – but maybe some small number of people did. If so, that would not be relevant.

    When Apple copied the Amiga with OSX (though the Amiga could pre emotively multitask multi threads… something that OSX still can not do today) Apple fanatics changed their story instantly and claimed multitasking was the way of the future.

    I cannot speak for others, but for many years before OS X I was speaking about how future OSs would likely be a combination of the power of Unix’s back end with the ease of use of Mac OSs front end. Clearly your comments have nothing to do with me.

    Again: you are responding in a very emotional way. I prefer reason and logic and evidence. But to each their own.

    From there you just go on making up stories about “Apple fanatics” as if this group of unnamed individuals have anything to do with the topic or with me. They do not. Just emotional ranting from you. On and on… no need for color graphics, lying about Macs being used on TV shows and movies, on and on… just nonsense that has nothing to do with anything other than your emotions.

    You have a simple mind.

    Well, I focus on evidence and reason… that can be called a form of simplicity I suppose. But I think you meant it as an insult. :)

    * Double clicking

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVw86emu-K0

    The Xerox PARC may have had double clicking. Not a lot of info about small details like that these days. But if they had not, then they utilised their THREE button mouse to both select and open files. If Apple invented double clicking at all, it was specifically to overcome their insufficient hardware.

    In other words: you have no reason to think I am wrong (and the 13 minute video has no relevance to double clicking!)… so you make up a story about double clicking being needed only for overcoming insufficient hardware. Just silly. What modern GUI does not use double clicking these days? I do – and I have an 8 button mouse!

    Why point to irrelevant videos? Did you even watch the video?

    * The File, Edit, … menu structure common to most GUIs

    The layout of the menu? Are you serious? The Atari ST and the Amiga both had different menu layouts and worked plenty fine without Apples crappy menu system! I use Apples crappy menus every day, and I wish every single day to have an Amiga on my desk. I believe Apple should be PUNISHED for their menu system, not praised for it!

    Nothing there about any GUI before Apple’s that used the menu systems which are common to Mac, Windows, KDE, and Gnome (and others). In other words, you have no evidence to suggest I am wrong but you do have a very strong emotional reaction to the claim you cannot support. OK: another emotional reaction from you.

    * Windows that “self-redraw” when the top window is moved

    Sorry, but I see in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVw86emu-K0 windows self redrawing when moved on top of other windows. This is on the Xerox PARC system released in 1981 two YEARS before Apple stole the UI for their LISA system.

    You show no support about Apple stealing anything and the video does not show what you claim (if you think otherwise please point to the time stamp… I watched it once, above, and did not see this). Frankly there is very little movement of windows (likely in part to not show this weakness of the Star).

    * Mice with diagonal movement

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVw86emu-K0

    Hey, Zerox PARC seems to predate that claim. 4:20 in, watch the mouse pointer move diagonally!

    Fair enough. I had read that the Xerox mouse had two wheels and not a roller and this made diagonal movements challenging – but they do seem to work fairly well there. Good! You used *evidence* and not just emotion. I commend you for that.

    * An MP3 ecosystem with a music player, software, store, and connection to the top music providers

    Thats not an invention! That is an online store! Something may other companies created years before Apple. Talk to Amazon… they own most of the online store patents that Apple has to pay to use.

    Can we keep this on innovations and inventions please. Not who has the slickest marketing.

    Of course building such an ecosystem was an innovation – a very important one that helped Apple do so well.

    * A major music store where most if not all music is DRM free

    Arbitrary word “major”. There were many online music stores before the iTunes store. Some large and some not so large. Apple became the largest because of slick marketing and a devoted following of “Believers” who, after spending three years of complaining about the cost of Creative and other brand MP3 players, were all willing to spend THREE TIMES the amount on an Apple branded MP3 player. Hypocrisy at its finest. Again, please give us innovations and inventions… NOT marketing.

    More emotional reactions from you. Not very interesting.

    * A smart phone with a touch interface that includes almost all input

    Strange… sounds like PALM phones to me. I was doing that sort of thing on PALM. Oh, it also had PEN input… so that disqualifies it as innovative. Sorry. But lack of features is obviously an innovation! (sarcasm)

    Link? Evidence? If I recall correctly, the Palm had a number of other buttons and a physical keyboard… but if I am wrong then please show it. I admit: I could be. But show with *evidence* and not your standard emotional response. Emotions will not support your point.

    * A tablet with a multi-touch interface and little other input… with a complete touch-based “language” to allow for ease of use

    Microsoft actually invented most of the multitouch interface in the late 90′s… back when Apple were almost bankrupt and needed millions of bailout money from Microsoft. There were numerous Windows tablets close to a decade before the iPad, but with the tech at the time, had low battery life. The battery life made them unattractive. Apple did not invent the tablet, or touch interface. Get over it.

    Nobody said Apple invented the tablet or touch interface. More emotional response from you and not evidence. The MS tablets had a desktop OS tossed onto a tablet. Apple did things very differently there.

    * PDF Services

    Call that an innovation?! I was doing screen grabs of the net years before that “feature”. So Apple used PDF. It is not editable… I tried. You can’t copy and paste from the PDFs it creates… I tried. My old IFF or GIF screen grabs were as useful as Apples PDFs. No innovation. Unless I claim that you can create a screen grab of a web page in VIDEO! Using a video file you can scroll the entire length of a web site. Wow! I am a real inventor! Someone pass me the patent application forms! (sarcasm overload). You forget, you are talking to someone who has had over a decade of 12 hour days on OSX. You can not BS me like a beginner into believing that it is some form of innovation. It was only a change of file format.. one with no extra usability at all.

    Screen grabs have nothing to do with PDF Services. Not a thing. And of course you can copy from PDFs on OS X – not that this has anything to do with PDF Services. You show no sign of understanding what PDF Services even are or why they are a benefit. You do show a strong emotional response. This is your norm.

    * Proxy icons

    Proxy Icons. Clever idea people had on the Amiga. Apple made it slick. But using iconx (a library) on the Amiga, you could dump an icon file (on the Amiga icons were never built into the document or program, they were always independent files) anywhere and using a simple pointing script, you could point the icon to open any program along any path.

    I would like to see evidence of this. Do you have any?

    * Media Browser

    Sorry, but media browsing was invented on the Amiga. In fact the Amiga created a system of standard files with associated libraries. When you clicked on one or many files, they would open in a unified interface using the associated library to open the file in the background. This was a standard WB 2.04 feature.

    Evidence? If you are right I would find that interesting. Your track record is poor but I will not hold that against you.

    * Automator

    Steve Jobs has spent the past decade stripping the Amiga of all the features he had people insult and run down. This is one of them Look up AREXX. A system wide automation system. Created by a third party in the late 80′s, it was purchased and added as a system wide feature in WB2.04. Automator, like all Steve Jobs bullshit, does not work half as well as the Amiga original. The Amiga could automate every single tool in every third party program, every system tool and program, every library… and share data among them all. This is one of the tools I was excited about when Apple announced it… I miss AREXX a LOT. Unfortunately, Automator is no AREXX… it is the retarded child of Apple.

    AREXX was a command line language, not a graphical automation tool. Maybe you are thinking of AppleScript? Again, though, you respond very emotionally. Can you try to focus more on evidence and data?

    Want to list some more? Not one Apple fanatic has ever let sleeping dogs lie. Every single one believes their own propaganda and insists on having me dredge up the TRUTH from the past. Every single one goes away limping wondering how they could have been so wrong.

    Well, you did show I was wrong about the diagonal mouse movement (really that was meant to be smooth diagonal movement, but even that was shown to not be accurate – so I was wrong twice there – in my wording and in even what I meant as opposed to what I incorrectly wrote). So well done… you got one out of… however many. :)

    But overall your track record is poor: mostly responding with emotion and not evidence. And then you want back to Slashdot and babbled about “cultists” and other nonsense – more emotional baggage from you. I am not interested in your personal challenges. You even repeated your name calling of me… as if that is somehow a benefit to your emotional charged claims. Odd. And back to your “Apple invented everything” BS. Just weird.

    While I prefer logic and evidence you prefer emotion and obfuscation through name calling and accusations. Given our different ways of seeing the world I doubt we will come to an agreement but I find it interesting to look at your attempts to support your claims. I tend to hang out with others who prefer logic and rationality and through such forums I learn about people who “know” the world in a different way. Thank you.

    Michael Reply:

    Arg… formatting was all messed up. Try again. Sincere apologies on that:

    Michael, I call it as I see it. You are brain dead, and if, like you claim, you have any “clients” I pity the morons for not finding anyone more intelligent and honest to deal with.

    When I speak of your emotional responses, that is a great example. You post insults and accusations – working to put me on the defensive and trying to find a way to feel better about yourself. A shame. If you could pull yourself out of such a mode you might be able to think more clearly.

    You claim that you recommend whatever is best for the system. Then you contradict yourself by asking me why, as a graphics professional and the owner of a graphics studio, why I would not work on Linux.

    There is no contradiction with my asking you why you made the choices you make. Your choices. Not mine.

    It is the tools stupid! Linux has no tools. Well it has three or four tools with interfaces for graphics work… and a pile of render engines with no interfaces like Renderman. But Renderman is available on Windows as are all major renderers. Why limit myself? Why limit myself to three or four graphics apps when there are dozens of options on Windows?

    I speak of how, for many things, desktop Linux is not well suited for many types of work and Roy and crew just respond by calling me names and changing the topic. Good to see you are in basic agreement with me on this. But even though we are in basic agreement on this, you still post such things as:

    You see, if you knew anything about what graphics clients wanted or needed, you would not approach Linux (or iOS, Andriod and Windows Mobile) at all for your imaginary “clients”.

    See: insults and attempts to put me on the defensive – these things say much more about you than they do about me.

    OSX is almost in that group. Though, through the good graces of Adobe, and a few other art platforms like Art Rage, Corel Painter and Sketchpad (NOT Sketchpad for iOS or Android as Sketchpad on these platforms bares no resemblance to a professional art tool) they remain barely viable as a graphics platform.

    Apple does well in these areas… and not by the “good graces” of Adobe… Adobe makes a lot of money on their Apple products.

    But you claim to “advocate informed computing”. Yeah, I don’t know who you are, it seems like you believe that I should know.

    You are the one who is making up stories about me. Good for you to admit you have no idea if your stories are true.

    I do know, from this thread, that you have nothing to do with the word “informed”. You have one message for everyone. “Apple is great” just before your iPhone explodes taking all passers by with you.

    See: just more made up stories from you. No quotes from me where I say anything even remotely like what you attribute to me.

    But Apple has high satisfaction ratings. The highest in the industry.

    Yes. They have earned these ratings.

    Hey, this is a half truth. Highest satisfaction ratings IN USA. The numbers exclude the rest of the world.

    Can you show this? Looking now I find these:

    http://goo.gl/eTTwa

    Nothing about the surveys being US only, and they mention the global market. Still, they are not specific. Maybe I will look more later – but it is your claim and I would love to see you try to back it. If you can this would show you doing as I ask – using evidence and data to back your views. I would find it quite commendable if you were to do so.

    Oh, a second point, Catholics have a 100% satisfaction rate with the Catholic church (the ones that don’t leave). Muslims have a 100% satisfaction rating with their religion. Buddhists have a 100% satisfaction rating with their religion. See where this is going?

    Yes: you make up absurd “stats” on the spot because you have little faith in real data.

    All religious people have a 100% satisfaction rating of their belief. Apple religious people have a near 100% satisfaction rating of Apple.

    Apple is a company. Apple products are products. I do not care why you have a problem with this concept.

    Strange that. I would have thought that Apple fanatics may be less biased. What is my satisfaction rating, after nearly 12 years owning APple products? About 1% personally. At least my MBP (17″) is still running so I can type this post.

    You start with the idea that Apple users are “religious fanatics” then admit you are a user of Apple products and claim to not be what you described your own group to be.

    You are being irrational.

    Apple has some strong fans – they have earned it by making excellent products. I recently bought some super glue – I bought a slightly more expensive brand because the company has proved themselves to me with other products and I have had problems with the cheaper brand. This does not make me a fanatic… this makes me a wise consumer who has learned to trust a company. When I used the glue it lived up to my desires – but if it had not I would have bought another brand next time. If I were to be asked to complete a survey on this glue company I would rate them highly.

    Why would you list such decision making as a form of fanaticism?

    Apple may be at the top of every list you find in recent times. But those studies again are American only.

    Again: I would love to see you try to support this. Seems to be an unsupported assumption on your part.

    So please tell the WHOLE story. Not these half truths. You can have 100 studies that tell us that Apple fanatics love Apple. It sounds great until you realise that the study was rigged from the start as it excluded the majority of people that dislike Apple.

    You are dishonestly pretending the surveys seek out “fanatics” of one company but not others. This is not backed by the evidence provided.

    Again: you are making things up based on your emotional desires. That may convince some but it is not meaningful for me. I look to evidence and data and real support.

    Now onto the meaty bits. You believe that Apple has been “Amazingly Influential”.

    Of course they have. Do you have any contrary evidence? Remember, I have listed influential products and technologies and we can look at the top rated companies in terms of influence and innovation. Apple will be near the top of the list in all (or just about all).

    Your “counter” is to say they advertise, as if that was in question. Of course they do. Most companies do. This does not make them any less innovative (though it might make them more influential, I suppose).

    Did Apple invent the scroll wheel? Apple fanatics will tell you that Apple invented that innovation.

    I have never seen that claim. I suspect you made this up.

    Apple did not invent the touch screen.

    Nor have I seen anyone suggest they have. You are arguing a straw man.

    It was liars like yourself that insisted that “No one needs to multitask, if you can not use more than one program at a time, then the computer does not need to do more than one thing at a time”… that WAS the repeated statements from Apple fanatics like yourself.

    Again, you make things up about me. Why? I never said any such thing. Nor, really, can I recall anyone else – but maybe some small number of people did. If so, that would not be relevant.

    When Apple copied the Amiga with OSX (though the Amiga could pre emotively multitask multi threads… something that OSX still can not do today) Apple fanatics changed their story instantly and claimed multitasking was the way of the future.

    I cannot speak for others, but for many years before OS X I was speaking about how future OSs would likely be a combination of the power of Unix’s back end with the ease of use of Mac OSs front end. Clearly your comments have nothing to do with me.

    Again: you are responding in a very emotional way. I prefer reason and logic and evidence. But to each their own.

    From there you just go on making up stories about “Apple fanatics” as if this group of unnamed individuals have anything to do with the topic or with me. They do not. Just emotional ranting from you. On and on… no need for color graphics, lying about Macs being used on TV shows and movies, on and on… just nonsense that has nothing to do with anything other than your emotions.

    You have a simple mind.

    Well, I focus on evidence and reason… that can be called a form of simplicity I suppose. But I think you meant it as an insult. :)

    * Double clicking

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVw86emu-K0

    The Xerox PARC may have had double clicking. Not a lot of info about small details like that these days. But if they had not, then they utilised their THREE button mouse to both select and open files. If Apple invented double clicking at all, it was specifically to overcome their insufficient hardware.

    In other words: you have no reason to think I am wrong (and the 13 minute video has no relevance to double clicking!)… so you make up a story about double clicking being needed only for overcoming insufficient hardware. Just silly. What modern GUI does not use double clicking these days? I do – and I have an 8 button mouse!

    Why point to irrelevant videos? Did you even watch the video?

    * The File, Edit, … menu structure common to most GUIs

    The layout of the menu? Are you serious? The Atari ST and the Amiga both had different menu layouts and worked plenty fine without Apples crappy menu system! I use Apples crappy menus every day, and I wish every single day to have an Amiga on my desk. I believe Apple should be PUNISHED for their menu system, not praised for it!

    Nothing there about any GUI before Apple’s that used the menu systems which are common to Mac, Windows, KDE, and Gnome (and others). In other words, you have no evidence to suggest I am wrong but you do have a very strong emotional reaction to the claim you cannot support. OK: another emotional reaction from you.

    * Windows that “self-redraw” when the top window is moved

    Sorry, but I see in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVw86emu-K0 windows self redrawing when moved on top of other windows. This is on the Xerox PARC system released in 1981 two YEARS before Apple stole the UI for their LISA system.

    You show no support about Apple stealing anything and the video does not show what you claim (if you think otherwise please point to the time stamp… I watched it once, above, and did not see this). Frankly there is very little movement of windows (likely in part to not show this weakness of the Star).

    * Mice with diagonal movement

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVw86emu-K0

    Hey, Zerox PARC seems to predate that claim. 4:20 in, watch the mouse pointer move diagonally!

    Fair enough. I had read that the Xerox mouse had two wheels and not a roller and this made diagonal movements challenging – but they do seem to work fairly well there. Good! You used *evidence* and not just emotion. I commend you for that.

    * An MP3 ecosystem with a music player, software, store, and connection to the top music providers

    Thats not an invention! That is an online store! Something may other companies created years before Apple. Talk to Amazon… they own most of the online store patents that Apple has to pay to use.

    Can we keep this on innovations and inventions please. Not who has the slickest marketing.

    Of course building such an ecosystem was an innovation – a very important one that helped Apple do so well.

    * A major music store where most if not all music is DRM free

    Arbitrary word “major”. There were many online music stores before the iTunes store. Some large and some not so large. Apple became the largest because of slick marketing and a devoted following of “Believers” who, after spending three years of complaining about the cost of Creative and other brand MP3 players, were all willing to spend THREE TIMES the amount on an Apple branded MP3 player. Hypocrisy at its finest. Again, please give us innovations and inventions… NOT marketing.

    More emotional reactions from you. Not very interesting.

    * A smart phone with a touch interface that includes almost all input

    Strange… sounds like PALM phones to me. I was doing that sort of thing on PALM. Oh, it also had PEN input… so that disqualifies it as innovative. Sorry. But lack of features is obviously an innovation! (sarcasm)

    Link? Evidence? If I recall correctly, the Palm had a number of other buttons and a physical keyboard… but if I am wrong then please show it. I admit: I could be. But show with *evidence* and not your standard emotional response. Emotions will not support your point.

    * A tablet with a multi-touch interface and little other input… with a complete touch-based “language” to allow for ease of use

    Microsoft actually invented most of the multitouch interface in the late 90′s… back when Apple were almost bankrupt and needed millions of bailout money from Microsoft. There were numerous Windows tablets close to a decade before the iPad, but with the tech at the time, had low battery life. The battery life made them unattractive. Apple did not invent the tablet, or touch interface. Get over it.

    Nobody said Apple invented the tablet or touch interface. More emotional response from you and not evidence. The MS tablets had a desktop OS tossed onto a tablet. Apple did things very differently there.

    * PDF Services

    Call that an innovation?! I was doing screen grabs of the net years before that “feature”. So Apple used PDF. It is not editable… I tried. You can’t copy and paste from the PDFs it creates… I tried. My old IFF or GIF screen grabs were as useful as Apples PDFs. No innovation. Unless I claim that you can create a screen grab of a web page in VIDEO! Using a video file you can scroll the entire length of a web site. Wow! I am a real inventor! Someone pass me the patent application forms! (sarcasm overload). You forget, you are talking to someone who has had over a decade of 12 hour days on OSX. You can not BS me like a beginner into believing that it is some form of innovation. It was only a change of file format.. one with no extra usability at all.

    Screen grabs have nothing to do with PDF Services. Not a thing. And of course you can copy from PDFs on OS X – not that this has anything to do with PDF Services. You show no sign of understanding what PDF Services even are or why they are a benefit. You do show a strong emotional response. This is your norm.

    * Proxy icons

    Proxy Icons. Clever idea people had on the Amiga. Apple made it slick. But using iconx (a library) on the Amiga, you could dump an icon file (on the Amiga icons were never built into the document or program, they were always independent files) anywhere and using a simple pointing script, you could point the icon to open any program along any path.

    I would like to see evidence of this. Do you have any?

    * Media Browser

    Sorry, but media browsing was invented on the Amiga. In fact the Amiga created a system of standard files with associated libraries. When you clicked on one or many files, they would open in a unified interface using the associated library to open the file in the background. This was a standard WB 2.04 feature.

    Evidence? If you are right I would find that interesting. Your track record is poor but I will not hold that against you.

    * Automator

    Steve Jobs has spent the past decade stripping the Amiga of all the features he had people insult and run down. This is one of them Look up AREXX. A system wide automation system. Created by a third party in the late 80′s, it was purchased and added as a system wide feature in WB2.04. Automator, like all Steve Jobs bullshit, does not work half as well as the Amiga original. The Amiga could automate every single tool in every third party program, every system tool and program, every library… and share data among them all. This is one of the tools I was excited about when Apple announced it… I miss AREXX a LOT. Unfortunately, Automator is no AREXX… it is the retarded child of Apple.

    AREXX was a command line language, not a graphical automation tool. Maybe you are thinking of AppleScript? Again, though, you respond very emotionally. Can you try to focus more on evidence and data?

    Want to list some more? Not one Apple fanatic has ever let sleeping dogs lie. Every single one believes their own propaganda and insists on having me dredge up the TRUTH from the past. Every single one goes away limping wondering how they could have been so wrong.

    Well, you did show I was wrong about the diagonal mouse movement (really that was meant to be smooth diagonal movement, but even that was shown to not be accurate – so I was wrong twice there – in my wording and in even what I meant as opposed to what I incorrectly wrote). So well done… you got one out of… however many. :)

    But overall your track record is poor: mostly responding with emotion and not evidence. And then you want back to Slashdot and babbled about “cultists” and other nonsense – more emotional baggage from you. I am not interested in your personal challenges. You even repeated your name calling of me… as if that is somehow a benefit to your emotional charged claims. Odd. And back to your “Apple invented everything” BS. Just weird.

    While I prefer logic and evidence you prefer emotion and obfuscation through name calling and accusations. Given our different ways of seeing the world I doubt we will come to an agreement but I find it interesting to look at your attempts to support your claims. I tend to hang out with others who prefer logic and rationality and through such forums I learn about people who “know” the world in a different way. Thank you.

    boybunny Reply:

    Like I said, I call it as I see it. It is well beyond time that people drop the American social expectations of being polite in the face of arseholes. Apple religious fanatics are arseholes as are Scientologists. Cut from the same cloth. Arseholes. You are an arsehole Michael. Stop trying to play the high and mighty. Let us not review all your previous posts belittling anyone not Pro Apple (if not directly, then by back handed insults)… shall we? It is an act, and I am calling you on it.

    Let me repeat. When you ask one isolated market. One that is known worldwide for its fanaticism for one company. Well at least a larger amount of fanatics than every other market. Then you do your surveys only in that rarefied market, and no other market. Once you get away from the US Propaganda machine you call your media, the world knows that Europe is the single largest market worldwide, followed by China… USA comes third. Why are all these surveys held solely in the third largest market? Why for the past ten years, not one of these so called survey companies have not thought to ask anyone from the largest market? Or the second largest market? Or the Fourth largest market? Why, when the third largest market in the world is well known as being pro Apple, well beyond the support they get from any other market, do these companies only ask people from the third largest market in the world? You claim it is not rigged? Yeah, you keep telling yourself that. You are the only one believing it.

    As you truly are a giant turd… I will need to resort to quoting you.

    You stated:

    “There is no contradiction with my asking you why you made the choices you make. Your choices. Not mine.”

    Followed by:

    “I speak of how, for many things, desktop Linux is not well suited for many types of work and Roy and crew just respond by calling me names and changing the topic. Good to see you are in basic agreement with me on this. But even though we are in basic agreement on this, you still post such things as:”

    Yet I was directly responding to your idiotic suggestion from your prior post:

    “Curious: why not move to desktop Linux? Is it not suitable for the work you do?”

    Just what is your IQ? It can’t be very high. You don’t have much of a memory, especially considering that you had to have only just re read you comment because you have so painstakingly quoted everything I stated. You had to have been reading what I was responding to. You know how you flippantly laughed off my assertion that quoting to the nth degree is no replacement for having a functioning memory? Yeah, well this is your proof that a memory is an important thing to have. An IQ wouldn’t hurt either.

    Apple has only historically done well in the art scene on the LEGEND made up by arseholes like yourself. In the early days, Apple fanatics lied when they claimed that work done in the Amiga and SGI machines was done on Macs. Later work done on Windows and Linux renderfarms was claimed as Mac work. All lies. I was there. There were no macs. Hell, have you ever USED Strata Studio for any professional work? I tried as a test for a studio in 1995. No animation, no way to control colour….. ten times longer rendering than an Amiga at a quarter of the price or an SGI at half the price. The output was TERRIBLE and unusable. The trial of Macs as graphics machines was terminated wisely by management. Now note that date. Strata Studio could not animate prior to 1995… but was the ONLY 3D renderer on Mac. Yet Mac users were claiming over and over that Macs rendered Jurassic Park, Terminator 2, Babylon 5, Seagate etc. etc. etc. All in production years before Strata Studio… the crappiest renderer in history… could even animate.

    SO let us discuss what IS available on OSX vs Windows shall we? I have already listed the ONLY programs available on OSX for sketching. Adobe could kill off their entire suite and force 99% of “artists” off OSX tomorrow. It is the tools stupid. The OS is meaningless if you can’t get the tools you need to run your business. Photoshop, Premiere, Illustrator… these are the tools. So beyond that, the ONLY video editor is Final Cut. A joke in the real professional industry. Anyone who claims Final Cut is professional is not not a professional themselves. Apple purchased it from another company and has run an average NLE into the ground. Still on 32 bit processing… that means it is limited to 4GB of RAM… a real problem when your file is 12GB. Final CutX just has the pros pissing themselves with laughter. It has been labelled “iMovie Pro” for good reason. You cant even do an L cut or a T cut. Don’t know what those terms are? Well the most basic of editing requires them. Look it up… you are bound to find it on Wikipedia… I suspect you get all your faulty info from Wikipedia. It is the last refuge for morons. So Adobe produces the ONLY usable professional NLE. OK, you can get AVID, but even that friend of mine that has stuck with Macs… he works on Avid every day and he swears he will quit video editing and take up mining (digging holes) as a better career. Yeah, Avid is only popular by Mac old school who cut their baby teeth on it and know nothing else. Adobe being so important in NLE must be uncomfortable for Apple who have royally pissed Adobe (and every one else) off. Now on Windows, you have Sony Vegas (few advanced tools, but fast and easy), Premiere (quickly becoming the industry standard), Avid (Apple, you can keep this one), NewTek SpeedEdit, Lightworks, Grass Valley EDIUS… need me to continue? I can if you wish… but it has been up to a decade since I used some of these. Every one is still in production, I can list the ones out of production if you wish… like Razer, but that would be very time consuming.

    For 2D art, Windows offers Photoshop, Corel Painter, Art Rage, Sketchbook Pro… these are the ones also available on OSX… but this is where the OSX list stops. On Windows, I still like to haul out my copy of Photogenics, Corel Draw (severely underrated graphics tool), TV Paint (again, unbelievable tool), and a few cheapies costing about $50… but I don’t use them much.

    While I am thinking about it, with the exception of Adobe, most graphics software on OSX… the few that remain, run anything up to 18 months BEHIND their windows alternatives. A little known fact because Apple people don’t like to discuss their god in any bad light.

    3D. Well lets see. If you can be bothered on a crippled Mac. One with few if any CUDA cores. And you are willing to wait an unprofessional amount of time while your CPU does ALL your rendering. Then there is Lightwave (Originally from the Amiga), Bryce, Cinema 4d (Originally from the Amiga), Maya (Originally from SGI) and 3D Studio Max (Originally from Windows). All of these are on Windows and most use the CUDA cores for accelerated rendering. Add to that on Windows, TrueSpace (with realtime rendering), EIAS and almost countless other lesser known 3D solutions.

    3D modelling only has a few options available on both Windows and OSX. Mudbox and ZBrush come to mind. What OSX does not have are innovative programs like Teddy and ShapeShop. Interfaces made to make complex organic objects in seconds, not hours or days.

    OSX has no 3D conversion tools.

    The days of Director and Photoshop are long gone. Peoples expectations have advanced. Photoshop is still around, and for a few, Director is still there (both owned by Adobe)… but a studio needs more than those two, and it has become pretty hard for ANY studio to come up with reasons to claim that OSX is their platform of choice. Windows is the Graphics platform now, and OSX is barely holding on. Apple themselves know it. The new MacPro is now 18 months overdue. The few on OSX are all complaining about it. There was quite the rumour that Apple was pulling the plug on the Pro users completely.

    Now please stop feigning innocence. You know Apple fanatics have been claiming that Apple invented the scroll wheel. They have been claiming it now very openly for a decade. You accusing me of making it up after you have been shown to have invented Apple “facts” yourself, or you have continued them after hearing them from others. In one video, three of your claims are put to bed. Uncomfortable how history can come and bite you on the arse.

    All your rebuttals to my evidence are worthless. If there was something you did not like, yo called it emotional. You called repeatedly for references, when you yourself offered NO references. Hypocrite much? Yet I could tell you in which version of the Operating system you can find each one of these features on the Amiga. Strange you need more proof than that. Do yo need me to mail you an Amiga from 1990? Really? References for facts this old are hard to come by online. Just last week I was researching a university paper on something that happened for three years running and was newsworthy in every national newspaper. It happened in 1999. Not one reference to it. If there is no reference to large stories from 12-13 years ago, it will be very hard, other than to send you a computer and the operating system disks, to find the information specifically on features like “datatypes”.

    So considering yo can not even format your posts. I only skimmed your tiny tiny text. I think thats about it for your blowhard arrogance. You are not as smart as you claim… and appears you believe. You have memory problems and you use backhanded insults, even now as you claim that I have emotional responses. Go find someone else to play intellectually superior to while wallowing in the gutter of backhanded insults.

    Michael Reply:

    Like I said, I call it as I see it. It is well beyond time that people drop the American social expectations of being polite in the face of arseholes. Apple religious fanatics are arseholes as are Scientologists. Cut from the same cloth. Arseholes. You are an arsehole Michael. Stop trying to play the high and mighty. Let us not review all your previous posts belittling anyone not Pro Apple (if not directly, then by back handed insults)… shall we? It is an act, and I am calling you on it.

    See: more of your emotional responses and insults and accusations. You are not sure of yourself so you work to put others on the defensive. A shame – you actually can make some decent points when you are not so worked up. You babble about different markets (not quoted) without ever making a point – just showing your strong emotions. Apparently you think, somehow, that there are no user satisfaction surveys done outside of the US and that, perhaps, it is my fault? You repeatedly make this claim and then call me names and spew insults. Just weird. I assure you: I am not in charge of these surveys. You also did not understand why I asked you your views, as if I was supposed to know before asking. You thinking doing so is a sign of ignorance not just of your views but of the tech industry – again, an emotional reaction from you and not a rational one.
    As I have noted: with you being so focused on emotional reactions and me on rationality we are bound to have disagreements. While I find them interesting I do not hold them against you. Still, I think you would serve your goals better to reduce your name calling and your false accusations and your assumptions about me and my views. Your repeated false assumption of my being a "Mac fanatic" when you have been given counter evidence is a little silly. Your repeated running from the topic to pretend to question my IQ or memory is also just a sign of your own inability to focus. Shall we focus on the topic and not your emotional responses, please.
    For example: based on your *emotions*, you think – somehow – Apple has fooled the world into thinking it is innovative when you (somehow, you have not said) have figured out this is a "LEGEND" and not based on reality. I gave you a list of examples of some of their innovations and you responded by noting how I was incorrect in *one* (I was incorrect, it seems, to say the Star’s mouse did not move smoothly in a vertical direction – though our data is limited to a sales presentation showing it do so… how "staged" was that?)
    You, on the other hand, have just pushed away (perhaps completely out of mind) the mass of information about their innovation. You have shown that in the face of specific examples you merely discount them – they are not a part of your personal narrative so you cannot accept them. This is a form of cognitive dissonance for you: the data is not fitting to your personal story so you react emotionally. Here, then, let us look at those groups which look to see who is innovative:

    FastCompany: Apple #3
    Business Week: Apple #1
    Bloomberg BusinessWeek: Apple #1
    GoGeometry: Apple #3
    Forbes: Apple #5
    Wall Street Journal: Apple #5

    As I told you, in almost all cases, Apple is listed in the top 5 (in all cases, there, but maybe you will find others?). Those are all from 2010, by the way. You can check any year from the last dozen or so and find similar results. For you to think you have outsmarted all of these groups is a bit silly… and for you to believe you have done so based on your emotional reaction and not evidence is just absurd.
    But when faced with data like this you babble about some unnamed "Mac users" who apparently made claims to you that you do not believe. Who cares? Really? It is not relevant to this conversation. Even your list of Windows-only software is oft-repeated but irrelevant. Would it matter to you if I listed Mac-only software and the like? I suspect not! Again, you are responding with emotion and not reason. OK, back to some of your comments… as emotionally charged as they are:

    Now please stop feigning innocence. You know Apple fanatics have been claiming that Apple invented the scroll wheel.

    Cannot recall that claim, but even if someone had said it, what would it matter? How would it be relevant to this conversation? What difference would it make – would it, in your mind, reduce their actual inventiveness to have someone attribute something to them incorrectly?

    All your rebuttals to my evidence are worthless.

    They are not of value to change your emotions – correct. But, remember, I tend to focus on data and evidence, not just my emotions. We process the world differently. You did ask for some references, so I found some lists of Apple innovations. I do not expect you to change your emotional state based on these (they are designed as data, not designed to be comforting, but here goes):

    CEPro
    AppleGazette
    Forbes
    HBR Blog Network

    When faced with this, all you can see is "branding" or "advertising". But let us look at more rounded (less emotional) view from Bloomberg:

    Take Apple Computer Inc., once again the creative king. To launch the iPod… Apple used no fewer than seven types of innovation. They included networking (a novel agreement among music companies to sell their songs online), business model (songs sold for a buck each online), and branding (how cool are those white ear buds and wires?). Consumers love the ease and feel of the iPod, but it is the simplicity of the iTunes software platform that turned a great MP3 player into a revenue-gushing phenomenon.

    Notice how they list branding as one of *seven* areas (three listed). They do not let their emotions blind them to other aspects of Apple’s innovations as you do.

    So considering yo can not even format your posts. I only skimmed your tiny tiny text. I think thats about it for your blowhard arrogance. You are not as smart as you claim… and appears you believe.

    What claim? Seriously, you say I am not as smart as I claim – yet I cannot find any claim of mine about being "smart", in that word or others. I have noted how I tend to use reason and logic and not emotion, but one need not be "smart" to do so. You also state that you believe I have memory problems – well, here is a good test (an objective one, based on data) to see who does: show this quote of mine where I claimed to be "smart". If you can show that then you will have shown where my memory has failed me – but if not, then we will have found a place where you have a false memory, likely based on your emotional reactions.
    Interesting test. Thanks for the comments and I appreciate the chance for you to prove your point. I bet, if you are right, you will respond with strong positive emotions and I will have learned something based on the data – a win for both of us. If you are wrong (as I suspect) then I will still have been shown something from the data but your emotional reaction will not likely be as positive. Good luck with finding that quote!
    Also: sincere apologies about the formatting error. That was my mistake. I think I have avoided it this time. :)

  2. Michael said,

    December 26, 2011 at 7:08 pm

    Gravatar

    APPLE continues to trouble the Linux/Android world with lawsuits and false allegations, even doctored ‘evidence’. The cult of Mr. Jobs loves to pretend that it invented the smartphones, CrunchPad-like tablets, and all things shiny.

    What false allegations? Quote them. I can with you: there is no time, ever, that Apple has claimed to have invented smart phones or tablets or “all things shiny”. You made that up. You lied.

    I will give you credit for changing your past unsupported claim that Apple doctored evidence to noting they used it – with no support they had knowledge it was doctored. You listened to me on that and I commend you.

    But stop lying about the rest.

    Apple fan sites celebrate Apple patents, too. To name the new example:

    On December 23, 2011, Apple filed for the trademark and icon for “Available on the App Store” under applications 302118690 in China and 010520054 in Europe.

    That’s right, Europe as well. Over here, Apple has been working hard to embargo — not just sue — the competition. Apple disregards the notion of fair competition, which takes a lot of nerve for a company that built itself on knockoffs (e.g. Xerox PARC).

    See how you lie… Apple is supportive of *fair* competition as much as any other company. Even you quoted stats showing that over 50% of people think current smart phones look pretty much the same – and that look is the look of the iPhone. Same with tablets. Google / Android is copying Apple… and others have worked to embargo Apple as well. You ignore that.

    As far as Apple being a knockoff of Xerox, that is silly. Apple *paid* to get some IP from Xerox and then modified it and improved it *tremendously*. Heck, I have read that before Apple mice had two wheels and not a ball – they did not handle diagonals well. And double clicking and “self-drawing” windows when a top one is moved… on and on and on. Mac OS was never as much like the Xerox technology as Android is like iOS… and unlike Google, Apple *paid* to use someone else’s IP. Google did not.

    Over at NASDAQ.com there is a community post which says: ‘Former Apple chief executive Steve Jobs, who died in October, ardently believed Android copied much of Apple’s patented design elements, including multi-touch, swiping and its apps arrangement, according to Walter Isaacson’s “Steve Jobs.” Jobs told Isaacson he would “spend my last dying breath if I need to, and I will spend every penny of Apple’s $40 billion in the bank, to right this wrong.”‘

    You seem to disagree with Jobs on this. Fine. *SHOW IT*.

    But you never do. You counter evidence with emotion.

    Apple used to be a lot more benign and I even used a Mac at work. But when Apple started the legal assaults (starting with HTC) it made it clear that it was a frantic embargo company and not a producer.

    NOT A PRODUCER?!?!?!?

    What world do you live on?

    Really… that is so contrary to obvious facts no sane person could make that claim. Just insane.

    Based on a very recent ruling, Apple somehow managed to get a ‘victory’ against HTC, but how much of a victory is it when you become reliant on lawsuits?

    “somehow”? The courts agreed with them, on at least some key points.

    And “reliant” on lawsuits? How would you have them respond to the attacks against them… with a private army?

    “The goal here is to defend, not to offend.”In this age when software patents are under constant legal scrutiny we regret to see Apple using those sorts of patents in anti-competitive ways.

    Who other than Apple is pushing any major innovation in cell phones or tablets? Some are… but not many.

    What are our readers’ opinions? Boycott Apple? Perhaps with an ultimatum tied to litigation? The goal here is to defend, not to offend.

    You have already made it clear you do not want people to use Apple products.

    I say use what works best for you… and if that is an Android device, fine. Yes, they are mostly knockoffs of Apple’s products but that is for Apple to worry about. Maybe the most offensive companies, such as Samsung, should be avoided, but even then I think that is unlikely to do much good. Sadly Apple will just be the victim of such copy-cat behavior… they were with MS and they are now with Google. It is the nature of the beast. Google is the new Microsoft… a shame, because at one point they seemed to take pride in their work.

  3. walterbyrd said,

    December 26, 2011 at 7:27 pm

    Gravatar

    “While they are hardly blameless in this battle with Google / Android, it is not as if they started it. ”

    Apple is 100% to blame in this “battle” and Apple certainly “stated it.” Also, it is hardly a “battle” more like a scam, and not Apple’s first.

    IMO: those who try to defend themselves against Apple’s abusive scam are completely blameless. Those companies are the victims of Apple’s disgraceful behavior.

    Apple’s shameful abuse of the US patent system, and the US legal system, is clearly 100% Apple’s fault.

    Michael Reply:

    I understand many of Roy’s readers have an emotional desire to think of Apple as having started the battles, but I am looking at the data. What came before these attacks against Apple:

    Nothing that I know of. Apple *reacted* to that and other similar facts. How can a *reaction* be the thing that started something?

    I would love to hear what you think came before that. My bet: nothing.

  4. cyke1 said,

    December 27, 2011 at 3:35 am

    Gravatar

    I am not trin to be a flamebait or anything I believe Job’s was the driving force behind everything at apple, and when he died seems like they realize they don’t have that edge on the market they used to and this is their only way to keep other smartphone’s at bay. Its only a matter of time before other phone’s come up with something better then apple and leaves them behind and forces them do something new for once without steve.

    Michael Reply:

    Where the heck did you get any of those ideas? Jobs was a major factor at Apple… but he was *one* man. One. They have many, many excellent people – though it would be good if, in a couple of years, they were to get another “show man” to help push the message at conferences… not too soon or there will be too much of a comparison and the new person *should* do things differently.

    As far as not bring able to market their products… have you looked at their last few quarters? They are doing very, very well.

  5. lkcl said,

    December 27, 2011 at 4:39 am

    Gravatar

    what apple don’t realise is that HTC, VIA and so on are backed by – and owned by – the Taiwanese Triads. i find it just absolutely staggering that any company would even contemplate taking on such powerful people. the Triads are the 800lb gorilla: leave them alone and they’ll leave you alone. cross them and they will put in a long-term plan to completely obliterate you.

    Michael Reply:

    You think Apple does not know about the companies which are copying them? Where did you get that idea? Should one only fight for your rights if the offender is small? I do not get your point.

  6. walterbyrd said,

    December 27, 2011 at 11:33 am

    Gravatar

    Woo-hoo! Story is being discussed on slashdot.

    http://apple.slashdot.org/story/11/12/27/0216217/techrights-recommends-an-apple-boycott

    Michael Reply:

    LOL! Read the comments… at least people in general are not as foolish as Roy’s followers.

    boybunny Reply:

    And here you are blatantly wrong. For every pro Apple comment, there are approximately 1.8 comments anti Apple.

    Not only that, but the pro Apple comments are made by a smaller group of Apple fanatics repeatedly commenting. A tactic Apple fanatics have used over and over for decades now. Using their own mass commenting to prove Apple has much more support than it has in reality.

    Dr. Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    Apple — like Scientology — has a very small group of hugely vocal nutters.

    Michael Reply:

    Snit:

    LOL! Read the comments… at least people in general are not as foolish as Roy’s followers.

    boybunny:

    And here you are blatantly wrong.

    So you think people in general are as foolish as Roy’s followers? If that is true it is very sad.

    For every pro Apple comment, there are approximately 1.8 comments anti Apple.

    Reading the top few, at least, that is not true. I did not read through them all.

    Not only that, but the pro Apple comments are made by a smaller group of Apple fanatics repeatedly commenting. A tactic Apple fanatics have used over and over for decades now. Using their own mass commenting to prove Apple has much more support than it has in reality.

    Yawn. You are not even trying to discuss the content of the message – just attacking the messengers.

    I prefer to look at evidence and logic and data.

    Roy Schestowitz:

    Apple — like Scientology — has a very small group of hugely vocal nutters.

    And here Roy is doing the same thing – shunning evidence and logic and reasoning in order to call people names and make accusations.

    Hey, Roy, how about this: let’s discuss the evidence and the data. On your show. Let’s set a date and time and I will be on your show again – no name calling, no insults. Just looking at evidence and data and the factual support for your claims *and* mine.

    But you will not do this. You *know* the evidence is not on your side. You will run from this offer and claim you are just not “feeding a troll”, when the reality is I am making it very clear the focus would be on testing the accuracy of our claims and comments.

    Again: you know – absolutely know – your claims are incorrect. And you know – or at least fear – I am pretty much right in my claims.

    Your actions prove this. No name calling, Roy… just evidence, support, and data… the very things you fear most.

    Michael Reply:

    Ack… there was a broken end-tag in that. Reposted… Roy, if you can, please remove the original post (not trying to post the same thing twice) – it has the same wording, this is just formatted better.

    Snit:

    LOL! Read the comments… at least people in general are not as foolish as Roy’s followers.

    boybunny:

    And here you are blatantly wrong.

    So you think people in general are as foolish as Roy’s followers? If that is true it is very sad.

    For every pro Apple comment, there are approximately 1.8 comments anti Apple.

    Reading the top few, at least, that is not true. I did not read through them all.

    Not only that, but the pro Apple comments are made by a smaller group of Apple fanatics repeatedly commenting. A tactic Apple fanatics have used over and over for decades now. Using their own mass commenting to prove Apple has much more support than it has in reality.

    Yawn. You are not even trying to discuss the content of the message – just attacking the messengers.

    I prefer to look at evidence and logic and data.

    Roy Schestowitz:

    Apple — like Scientology — has a very small group of hugely vocal nutters.

    And here Roy is doing the same thing – shunning evidence and logic and reasoning in order to call people names and make accusations.

    Hey, Roy, how about this: let’s discuss the evidence and the data. On your show. Let’s set a date and time and I will be on your show again – no name calling, no insults. Just looking at evidence and data and the factual support for your claims *and* mine.

    But you will not do this. You *know* the evidence is not on your side. You will run from this offer and claim you are just not “feeding a troll”, when the reality is I am making it very clear the focus would be on testing the accuracy of our claims and comments.

    Again: you know – absolutely know – your claims are incorrect. And you know – or at least fear – I am pretty much right in my claims.

    Your actions prove this. No name calling, Roy… just evidence, support, and data… the very things you fear most.

  7. Toggi3 said,

    December 27, 2011 at 7:17 pm

    Gravatar

    1) Apple didn’t invent the smartphone, they invented the smartphone UI that didn’t suck. (no scrollbars, title bars, window management buttons, task bars, or other nonsense grafted from PCs onto phones)

    2) Android is a ripoff of iOS and before that was a ripoff of BlackBerry.
    See: http://tinyurl.com/2b64crx for android pre iOS.

    3) Apple licensed what it took from Xerox PARC.

    Troll harder.

    Toggi3 Reply:

    Oh for the record, I advocate abolishing software patents so none of this legal nonsense is possible. Its a stupid system and Apple isn’t really winning from it and finds itself on the receiving end of these types of suits plenty.

    Apple isn’t innocent at all, OP is just an android fanboi.

    Michael Reply:

    If you abolish software patents, what do you propose to use to protect software from being illegally / immorally copied? Or are you of the mindset that people’s IP should not be protected?

    If that is the case, do you support the IP protections offered in the GPL? If you do, why the (apparent) double standard?

    Toggi3 Reply:

    I view the protection as doing more harm than good at this juncture. I think the GPL is a means to navigate the situation surrounding IP in a manner that forces everyone to grant permission to take from that software. I have yet to see a software patent I’ve had a great deal of admiration for or thought it was not an obvious extension of something else. For the most part I see people abusing them as widely as possible and stifling creativity, apple included. We absolutely need to remove vague software or look and feel patents as a means of corporate warfare.

    If you could actually show me good examples of software patents maybe I wouldn’t be so cold towards them.

    Toggi3 Reply:

    My position on the patent system in general or apple’s use of it does not have any implication on my belief that android steals most of its UI. It isn’t a double standard to call android an absolutely tasteless knockoff while still abhorring software patents/IP litigation in general. Let android be a cheap knock off iPhone system riddled with java, I couldn’t care any less.

    Michael Reply:

    Toggi3

    If you really do not see anything but “obvious” innovations from the tech industry it is hard to believe you are really looking. Ten years ago the smart phone as we know it did not even exist.

    twitter Reply:

    Apple’s UI is nice, Toggi3, but it’s not true that they invented it. Other people invented multi-touch. Mozilla and others had inertial scrolling and gestures long before hypePhone. Palm, of course, used a system of gestures called graffiti before Microsoft partners wrecked them with software patents. Edge flipping is something X11 had 20 years ago and there have been interesting combinations of all of them in various window managers for all OS. Android devices, like the Kindle Fire, have their own interface tricks that Apple does not. As long as we all have our software freedom, you can expect to see even nicer combinations of UI elements.

    The thing that really brought all of these UI devices together on smart phones was improved hardware with accelerated graphics. Opie, GPE and Palm devices before them used scroll bars and other stuff from the PC world because they were using sub 100 MHz processors.

    An Apple boycott is appropriate and deserved. People should avoid Apple’s non free software despite performance advantages because all non free software demands unjust power over users. People are just beginning to understand how dangerous that power is for both the individual and society, but that understanding is necessary for real freedom. Apple’s abuse of patents to keep others from trivial and prior inventions is something easier for people to understand. I can easily pledge to buy nothing but used Apple equipment and to never use their software.

    It goes without saying that Microsoft deserves the same continued treatment for even worse abuses and software that lacks all merit. Giving up Microsoft is easy because their software sucks. Convincing people to give up, or at least not trust all non free software is harder.

    Michael Reply:

    Apple’s UI is nice, Toggi3, but it’s not true that they invented it.

    Of course they invented it (which is not to say they invented every component in it… this is true of almost any innovation!) They changed the industry with it.

    Other people invented multi-touch.

    This is not in contention. I mean, really, has *anyone* ever suggested otherwise? Why is this strawman brought up over and over again in such discussions?

    Mozilla and others had inertial scrolling and gestures long before hypePhone.

    I know of no product called the "hypePhone", but if you know of another product that had *similar* gestures to the iPhone and had it before I would like to see evidence of this.

    Palm, of course, used a system of gestures called graffiti before Microsoft partners wrecked them with software patents. Edge flipping is something X11 had 20 years ago and there have been interesting combinations of all of them in various window managers for all OS. Android devices, like the Kindle Fire, have their own interface tricks that Apple does not.

    So your evidence that Apple did not invent their own UI is the Fire did something *different*. That is an odd form of "evidence".

    As long as we all have our software freedom, you can expect to see even nicer combinations of UI elements.

    The thing that really brought all of these UI devices together on smart phones was improved hardware with accelerated graphics. Opie, GPE and Palm devices before them used scroll bars and other stuff from the PC world because they were using sub 100 MHz processors.

    An Apple boycott is appropriate and deserved.

    Because…???

    People should avoid Apple’s non free software despite performance advantages because all non free software demands unjust power over users.

    Ah, because of the "free software" BS which is not about freedom but about the "right" type of IP protection. OK.

    People are just beginning to understand how dangerous that power is for both the individual and society, but that understanding is necessary for real freedom. Apple’s abuse of patents to keep others from trivial and prior inventions is something easier for people to understand.

    What else should Apple do to protect their IP? Without an answer to this – with just blind denials as you post above – you have no answer.

    I can easily pledge to buy nothing but used Apple equipment and to never use their software.

    Do you never use WebKit or CUPS? Both are Apple software (which does not mean they started either project!)

    It goes without saying that Microsoft deserves the same continued treatment for even worse abuses and software that lacks all merit. Giving up Microsoft is easy because their software sucks. Convincing people to give up, or at least not trust all non free software is harder.

    First you need to make a *logical* case and not the emotion based claims that are generally made. I wish you luck with that.

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