NOW THAT speculations about further abuse in Europe continue to seem more reasonable, the European Commission (EC) is said to be investigating. As the financial turmoil shows, there is always need for good policing and regulation, so the EC has a responsibility to show that those who do the crime will also do the time.
Over half of Norway's ISO body, Standard Norway, have resigned over the country's approval for OOXML, citing Microsoft influence.
[sarcasm] But hey! If most of those standards 'experts' from Norway quit in protest, it must be just bias. They must be Rabidâ⢠'Haters€®' (bad labels [1, 2]) of Microsoft, right?[/sarcasm]
the company has existed since the early 90s using pure anti-competitive tactics and nothing more and with their IBM handed monopoly position, they have thrived. MS-OOXML was 100% a reaction to ODF, their tactics to use ECMA and the fasttrack mechanism 100% a reaction to ODF, and the stuffing of the ISO committees to get MS-OOXML passed through the fasttrack process still 100% a reaction to ODF. And now, they are stuffing more committees so they can take over ISO's ODF control.
And the tech press is more concerned with iPhone SDK licensing issues while all this has been going on. We know who still owns the press these days.
The main sponsor behind OOXML, the Microsoft Corporation, assured the European Commission that they would chose a RF model for their future Office format.1 However, their public affairs representatives repeatedly casted doubt whether their chosen patent license model would enable implementations under the GNU GPL and forcefully lobbied domestic and oversees legislators against open standards. The intense struggle has two levels. On one layer the question is RAND or RF as appropriate licensing conditions, on a second layer the attempt was to redefine the terminology of "open standards" to become RAND compatible. A "success" of the lobbying effort was the ITU-T definition of "open standards" drafted by a patent attorney working group which made the limbo for RAND licensing conditions. As an effect all international standards would become "open standards". It comes at no surprise that vendors are sceptical about the honesty of the Microsoft patent schemes and are suspicious about hidden agendas.
“IBM is said to be pushing to ensure the case is concluded.”Dangerous here is the fact that the court system is very expensive for anyone else to pursue, as the UKUUG has already found out [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10].
In the United States, someone has said that there is case law concerning committee stuffing or vote rigging (Comcast was caught stuffing it up and it's far from the first time for Microsoft), but if the commission wants to carry out a complete or at least comprehensive probe, a lot of traveling will be involved, e.g. to 'puppet nations'.
In accordance Resolution 8 of the SC 34 Jeju plenary meeting, Working Group 5 has been established. SC 34 members are invited to nominate their experts to participate in this Working Group. Please send a list of participants showing names, affiliations and e-mail addresses to the SC 34 Secretariat by 2008-11-15. The information received will be forwarded to the WG 5 Convener for creation of a mailing list.
Resolution 8: Establishment of Working Group 5
SC 34 establishes Working Group 5 as follows:
Title: Document Interoperability
Terms of Reference: Develop principles of, and guidelines for, interoperability among documents represented using heterogeneous ISO/IEC document file formats. The initial work includes preparation of the Technical Report on ISO/IEC 26300 – ISO/IEC 29500 translation.
SC 34 instructs its Secretariat to issue a call for participation to the SC 34 members and to request ISO and IEC to publicise the existence of WG 5 to encourage participation from all who are eligible.
Comments
AlexH
2008-10-10 17:14:26
How ODF maintenance will be handled with regards to the new committees hasn't been decided fully yet, but the development will almost certainly stay within OASIS.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-10 17:21:19
Handling ODF-OOXML includes handling ODF. That aside, Microsoft('s stuffed panel) wants to seize control of ODF too.
AlexH
2008-10-10 18:58:10
The SC34 liason put forward has been about institution rules, not substantive changes.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-10 20:10:51
AlexH
2008-10-10 20:30:43
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-10 20:32:49
AlexH
2008-10-10 20:38:19
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-10 20:42:09
AlexH
2008-10-10 20:47:12
Translating ODF and OOXML has nothing to do with the maintenance of ODF. The ODF TC take suggestions for features which improve interoperability (see, for example, the discussion of lists). But that's just part of normal debugging, it's nothing to do with development.
I thought you said you subscribed to the OASIS TC?
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-10 20:54:55
Actually, as I wrote many times before, Java and JS are as much alike as car and carpet. I'm aware of the differences because I've programmed in both.
AlexH
2008-10-10 21:02:13
So, which is it? Do you recognise your claim was faulty, or are you tryi/ng to support it with dodgy similies between vehicles and soft furnishing?
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-10 21:04:42
AlexH
2008-10-10 21:07:31
It's really very simple:
* OASIS maintain ODF * the ODF tc will likely, in the future, liase with ISO for future revisions * ISO will review/correct/etc. the standard before approving it * once approved, WG5 will help map it to OOXML
As you can see, WG5 is at the wrong end of the process to actually have much influence on the ODF development.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-10 21:15:17
AlexH
2008-10-10 21:43:20
Nobody, ISO included, thinks WG5 is taking over ODF maintenance except you. OASIS is responding to a liason request regarding rules.
This is in the public record; which I note you have been scrupulously careful not to link from here.1
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-10 22:16:35
if such a thing exists, I do not know where. Please provide it rather than accuse me of of being "scrupulous".
Ziggyfish
2008-10-10 22:57:21
The biggest problem is the 3rd point of the process.
* ISO will review/correct/etc. the standard before approving it
The ISO if corrupted by Microsoft, will disapprove/correct changes to the proposed ODF standard that may conflict with Microsoft's best interest. This means that the control of ODF is really in the hands of ISO (and Microsoft).
Where SC34 comes in is Microsoft has control over the committees, and SC34 controls the ODF standards.
Also AlexH, please keep in mind the nature of this site, take what's on this website lightly.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-10 23:00:15
Slashdot User
2008-10-11 01:28:53
And this is relevant because...?
Dan O'Brian
2008-10-11 01:53:45
This of course, is no great surprise because Roy is the personification of hypocrisy.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-11 06:32:44
O'Brian and Hudson are here to achieve one goal: to discredit the site in any way, at any given opportunity.
Jim B
2008-10-11 07:27:42
A quote from someone who has been a member of that committe for years (and still is)
[quote]This article is wrong! This article is basically bullshit.
What's happened here is that lots of people joined the committee to oppose the standard, and while in the committee that's all they've done. Now that OOXML has been approved, they no longer have any reason to be in the committee, so they are leaving. That's hardly the committee imploding.
So let me say this again: not one of these people have done anything in this committee other than oppose OOXML being taken up as a standard. These people are not key people in the committee. They did try to get other people in the committee to join them, but nobody else wanted to leave in protest over this.
What they are, however, is media-savvy. They've worked on all kinds of IT-related advocacy (anti-DRM, pro-open source, etc etc), so they send out a press release stating that this is a big protest, and the committee is imploding etc etc. This article is basically that press release translated to English and prettied up to look like an article.
I guess at this point people will be wondering how I know this. I've been a member of this committee since 2001, and I know many of the people on that list personally. I voted against OOXML, because I thought it wasn't ready to become a standard. The trouble is: however much you may hate Microsoft, this article remains a piece of useless propaganda.
posted by : Lars Marius Garshol, 04 October 2008 [/quote]
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-11 08:00:00
"Steve Pepper is the Senior Information Architect at STEP Infotek, a division of Infostream specializing in standards-based information reengineering. He represents Norway on JTC 1/SC 34, the ISO committee responsible for the development of SGML and related standards, and is convenor of WG 3 (Information association), whose responsibilities include the HyTime and Topic Map standards. A frequent speaker at SGML and XML events around the world, he is the author and maintainer of the “Whirlwind Guide to SGML and XML tools” and co-author (with Charles Goldfarb and Chet Ensign) of the “SGML Buyer's Guide” (Prentice-Hall, 1998)."
http://www.gca.org/papers/xmleurope2000/author/s11-01auth1.html
Jim B
2008-10-11 08:13:55
AlexH
2008-10-11 08:18:41
How about instead of throwing around your usual insults, you ask to be shown how OASIS works? I'm quite happy too link you to the current statement on SC34 liason. You'll notice it doesn't mention WG5.
I've tried to explain the process to you in simple terms, but either you don't understand or you don't want to understand. That doesn't bother me. What does bother me are your constant attacks of association.
You seek to discredit me even though I have no connection to Novell, and now you're seeking too discredit OpenDocument by associating it with ISO, an organisation which has already helped shape the ODF standard. It's sick, you claim to be a friend of free software, but you just bash, bash, bash.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-11 08:31:58
Here you are throwing toys accusing me of discrediting when all you ever do in this site is discredit it (and me).
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-11 08:33:20
You're already moving goalposts. I find it interesting that you quote the very same person Microsoft employees are quiting. It reminds me of Patrick Durusau and his 'letters'.
AlexH
2008-10-11 09:24:15
If I discredit your site it's because the "facts” you post are often dangerous made-up nonsense. Even thought I've shown you the OASIS position on SC34 liason, you haven't updated this story and you still persist in the FUD that WG5 is somehow going to take over ODF.
Again I find myself having to defend a project that is important to free software - ODF - which you are trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt about. I doubt people will fall for your lttle stories when they follow the links and figure things out for themselves.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-11 09:30:09
No, I was not suggesting this. I said that a Microsoft-stacked committee can spread its influence to another group in ISO where ill interests might pervade.
How do I spread FUD? By encouraging action against abuse? Pointing bad things out is not FUD; it's a request for action to prevent those bad things.
AlexH
2008-10-11 09:36:32
WG5 will work with the standards as output. At "worst", it will report back to TCs those features which are difficult to convert to other formats. It's about OOXML and ODF for now, but may well include UOF in the future too.
Your "warnings" are misleading and scare-mongering.
Boycot IBM too
2008-10-11 10:40:26
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-11 11:32:08
Microsoft is a large player in the office suites space. Why did it refuse to join standardisation attempts several years ago? Did it not believe standards were important?
Boycot IBM too
2008-10-11 12:11:52
Roy, you avoided the questions about the dominance of IBM in the OASIS TC and ODF standardization proces which standardization of the format they use to promote their closed Notes 8 office suite. IBM is the biggest patent claimer in the world and their patent licencing (ISP) on ODF is even more limited than MS patent license (OSP).
Further more I do not understand your answer. Could you please show me from the OASIS archives (or anywhere else) any message from the last 3-5 years or so from Microsoft in which they refused to join a standards effort ?
Also I seem to remember that is was actually the EU who asked Microsoft to standardize their MS Office 2003 XML formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML and PresentationsML) in 2004. This is effectivly what they did by standardizing Office Open XML. So if the EU themselves suggest they standardize their own format and they do that exact thing I don't think it would be logical to join another effort as well. That would surely have been considered an 'evil' move.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-11 12:43:30
Microsoft openly threatens to sue Free software projects; IBM does not and will not. In addition, please see my post from yesterday about Microsoft's OSP.
You can ask IBM or Sun for the details. I have no time to dig up the proof at the moment (just got some major scoop), but Microsoft was invited to collaborate on ODF.
This is news to me. Please produce proof. "Seem to remember" is not convincing enough...
Lastly, I kindly ask you for your real identity. Otherwise, I may assume you are a Microsoft employee or someone who operates for/on their behalf.
Boycot IBM too
2008-10-11 13:17:26
I am not working for Microsoft or Novell. I do not want my identity associated with this blog in a search engine either.
I find it strange that you let the IBM patent license which is less free than MS licensing on OOXML pass by without mentioning and that you suggest that MS dominates ISO/IEC whilst IBM and Sun are in completle control of ODF much more than Micrsoft is of OOXML. OOXML is in international control but ODF is fully under IBM and Sun control.
IBM is actually a party sueing a company, that was opening up the IBM mainframe operating system on other hardware platforms, for intellecual property issues related to IBM patents. This effectivly means no OSS effort can be made to port the IBM mainframe OSS to other platforms like itanium. Microsoft has never sued any free software project or any project that promotes opening up software.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-11 13:24:06
You are trying to drag this discussion to unrelated areas under the false supposition.
How do you (or your employer) relate to them? it's not actual employment I'm concerned about and since I identify a FUD pattern, I must be apprehensive.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-11 14:41:24
Funny that Groklaw just pointed out the same thing, adding: "Of course, you have to like working in the dark, so to speak."
ODF = IBM/Sun
2008-10-11 15:33:24
It is interesting somebody already mentioned above that you stated in the article Over half of Norway’s ISO body, Standard Norway, have resigned whilst actually noone in the national body resigned but only a some members of committee that mostly joined to block ooxml left that commitee after they failed to do so.
Your article is just very poorly researched. And then after people are not disgreeing with your statements you go of and accuse them of being related to Microsoft without any reason whatsoever. not everyubodsy disagreeing with you is working for Microsoft or in any way related to them. People disagree with you mostly because you try to rewirte reality and at best either misinterprete things or even blatantly lying about things.
You in the article suggest things about the licensing for OOXML but actually the IBM licensing for ODF was actually copied from Microsoft OSP licensing, but where Micrsofts OSP licensing applies to partial implementations of OOXML as well IBM's ISP pledge has a specific lcause added to that stating it only applies to full implementations of ODF.
Critisising the Microsoft licensing on OOXML meand by definition critisising the IBM Interoperabilite Specification Pledge licensing for ODF as that was almost cloned from Microsoft.
This critisism is especially hurtfull for upcoming ODF v1.2 which will contain a lot of technology that has IP rights on it from IBM/Lotus for spreadsheet. (remember lotus 1-2-3). There is little doubt that ODF will not pass ISO/IEC unless IBM makes its licensing apply to partial implementations of ODF as well just like Microsofts already does.
I already informed my national body that the IBM licensing only applying to full implementations is unacceptable. I suggest you do thee same if you already have a problem with MS licensing because the IBM license is just worse.
AlexH
2008-10-11 15:52:06
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-11 18:47:48
Don't rewrite history, please.
http://topicmaps.wordpress.com/2008/04/18/the-norway-vote-what-really-happened/
"There were nearly 30 people present: three employees of Standard Norway (the VP, the committee secretary, and the JTC1 representative); the rest were technical experts. The VP opened by declaring that our only purpose was to discuss the comment responses and decide whether they had been addressed to our satisfaction. If so,"
[...]
"The meeting was a farce and the result was a scandal. But it’s not over yet, and one thing is clear: the “little one” is unfit to represent the interests of Norwegian users."
Says Steve Pepper.
So who do you work for? You sure seem to have reasons to be hostile towards ODF, stay anonymous, and spread myths that many people won't bother replying to.
Who Knows
2008-10-11 20:52:08
Will you claim foul for their lobbying and monopolizing a standards body to drive their agenda? Right..I didn't think so.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-11 21:05:08
Jim B
2008-10-12 07:41:04
Seeing the amount of effert you put in anti Microsoft/Novell we should be the ones that wonder who you are working for.
Who is paying your bill, funding you or sponsoring you mr Schestowitz ? I think it is evident that you can't do a med study and still be able to be active as you are. Next to this blog you are also active on digg (6k submitted stories, 13k comment, 15k diggs), and on usenet (and incredible 60k posts there) and what looks like at least 40k other web blogs/posts/comments.
That is about 140,000 pieces of activity on the internet almost all of which are directed against Microsoft and Novell. And to write all those you would have need to read at least a much much higher number of articles and comments by others. Even if you were to write 100 blog posts and reactions a day that would mean 4 years of nearly continuous work.
So I ask you again. Why are you doing this and who is funding/sponsoring you ?
Usenet search on author Schestowitz: http://groups.google.nl/groups?as_q=&num=10&scoring=r&hl=en&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=schestowitz&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=2000&as_maxd=12&as_maxm=10&as_maxy=2008&safe=off Web search on "by Roy Schestowitz": http://www.google.nl/search?hl=en&q=%22by+Roy+Schestowitz%22&btnG=Google+Search Digg: http://digg.com/users/schestowitz
Roy Schestowitz
2008-10-12 07:51:01
No, over 80% of that is GNU/Linux and Free software advocacy.
I've finished most of my practical work in early 2006. This is volunteer work and if you read my personal blog, you would know this.