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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: January 2nd, 2009 - Part 1


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NeonFlossstealinh other peoples articles?Jan 02 00:05
schestowitzWho?Jan 02 00:06
NeonFlossnvmJan 02 00:07
schestowitzWhat's that?Jan 02 00:07
NeonFloss 02 00:07
NeonFlossread commentsJan 02 00:07
*schestowitz looksJan 02 00:07
NeonFlossis that meant to be copy word for word or just the idea?Jan 02 00:08
schestowitzI'm not following.Jan 02 00:08
schestowitzThis is a trackback from us from IRC (yesterday)Jan 02 00:08
NeonFlosssorry bout thatJan 02 00:09
NeonFlossI am really sorryJan 02 00:09
NeonFlossim not so good with englishJan 02 00:09
schestowitzWhat do you mean by "stealking"?Jan 02 00:09
schestowitz*stealing, oopsJan 02 00:09
NeonFlosslolJan 02 00:09
NeonFlossim sorryJan 02 00:09
NeonFlosswrong channel hehJan 02 00:09
schestowitzOK, npJan 02 00:09
schestowitzHeh.Jan 02 00:09
schestowitzWas that post a stolen one?Jan 02 00:09
NeonFlossthats wackJan 02 00:10
schestowitz:-)Jan 02 00:10
schestowitzI saw some other posts about Vista7 holes.Jan 02 00:10
NeonFlossI read the bottom comment and accidently assoiciated with top oneJan 02 00:10
NeonFlossI deeply apologizeJan 02 00:10
schestowitzNo, one of our reader/contribs ( trmanco  ) linked to it here.Jan 02 00:10
schestowitzNo problem. :-)Jan 02 00:10
schestowitzWhat is the original?Jan 02 00:10
schestowitzLet me know so that I can change the linklJan 02 00:10
schestowitz*linksJan 02 00:11
NeonFlossI dont followJan 02 00:11
schestowitzI linked to it here: 02 00:11
NeonFlossthats fineJan 02 00:11
NeonFlossI dont knowJan 02 00:11
NeonFlossim confusedJan 02 00:11
NeonFlossno problemJan 02 00:11
NeonFlosspretend I never came hereJan 02 00:11
NeonFlossheh hehJan 02 00:12
NeonFlossI mixed up that comment with another oneJan 02 00:12
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schestowitzVia Tor..Jan 02 00:14
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Axzlol schestowitz ignore himJan 02 00:19
Axznice job on the article mateJan 02 00:19
schestowitzThankls.Jan 02 00:19
schestowitzI'm watching this interesting talk. The US hopes to make India a "client state" of the US to keep it away from the rising Asian revolution. Same as some other countries..Jan 02 00:40
MinceRgnJan 02 01:01
tessier_Client state?Jan 02 01:07
tessier_What rising Asian revolution?Jan 02 01:07
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schestowitztessier: Asia (mostly China)  is likely to inherit wealth and become a superpower bigger than the USJan 02 07:38
tessierPossibly. I would think they would have to really clean up their act to have real success.Jan 02 07:38
tessierThe average person in China is still dirt poor making $2/day.Jan 02 07:38
tessierThey have a very long way to go.Jan 02 07:38
schestowitzYes, I know.Jan 02 07:38
schestowitzI'm not defending it.Jan 02 07:38
tessierBut yes, they could someday exceed the US.Jan 02 07:39
schestowitzRomans... British... American... China..Jan 02 07:39
tessierIt would be quite sad if the people of the next superpower did not have freedom.Jan 02 07:39
schestowitzThey never did under the US either, but it was betterJan 02 07:43
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Omar87Hi everyone.Jan 02 08:38
Omar87schestowitz: Do you suggest I go to china when I'm done with college?Jan 02 08:39
Omar87schestowitz: Since, ya know, china is becoming one of the greatest nations in terms of technology and stufF?Jan 02 08:39
Omar87stuff*Jan 02 08:39
schestowitzHeyJan 02 08:51
schestowitzChina does to humans what a commodity/generics do to drugs.Jan 02 08:52
schestowitzThey devalue human labour or thoughtJan 02 08:52
tessier 02 09:01
schestowitzThanks, interesting.Jan 02 09:10
schestowitzFoxxcon just fired 100,000Jan 02 09:10
schestowitzMadTux Closes Its Doors < > "We regret to inform you that economic conditions have forced us to close our doors after eight years in business."Jan 02 09:47
tessier 02 10:19
tessierNeato. Target sells pre-installed Linux computersJan 02 10:19
tessierWow, and the Target store just up the road from me has them in stock. Cool.Jan 02 10:20
tessierTarget has a nice website.Jan 02 10:20
schestowitzI think they have sold these for a while.Jan 02 10:22
tessierYes, they have. Months at least.Jan 02 10:22
tessierI bought mine over a year ago although that was from newegg.Jan 02 10:22
tessierCaitlyn Martin (author of that piece) negates some FUD in the comments.Jan 02 10:22
tessier@Linux Home User: The 4:1 return rate came from a statement by an MSI exec before they had sold even one netbook with Linux. Meanwhile Asus claims that there is NO higher return rate on Linux netbooks and they are the number one vendor. The 9:1 sales figure you got from our dear friends (cough) at IT Wire actually only applies to the Acer Aspire One and Acer only offers one model at the low end with Linux and makes no effort to get thatJan 02 10:22
tessiermodel into stores. According to Asus CEO Jerry Chen their figure is 6:4, which means 40% are Linux. The overall industry figure is 7:3. So, your wonderful piece of FUD is totally inaccurate. The Linux desktop is doing just fine in the marketplace, thankyouverymuch.Jan 02 10:22
tessierNicely done.Jan 02 10:23
schestowitzThe anti-Linux crowd links to the ITWire stuffJan 02 10:23
schestowitzASUS is "closely tied up with Microsoft," it saysJan 02 10:24
schestowitzBut ITWire has its share of troll writers either wayJan 02 10:24
*schestowitz does some reading on back doors... also Palladium... Trusted Computing... Intel's back door in hardware are suspected by Shamir who is a guru in this area; never mind back doors in encryption algos (that would be Schneier). These issues will come up more in the future when Linux gets snooped on too.Jan 02 10:24
schestowitzMainstream media should cover this stuff tooJan 02 10:24
schestowitzI'm also researching some Novell dark secrets (post will come soon). It's a very interesting area to explore, namely the convergence of Free software and closed embedded components. The OpenBSD folks and the FSF still argue over things like firmware (does it quality of a blob?). You can achieve so much that way and the pursuit that follows FOSS is one that pertains to circuits. CAD files and 'open-source' thingies like Chumby aren'Jan 02 10:25
schestowitzt enough.Jan 02 10:25
AxzMicrosoft is losing his power in software when it comes to costumers securityJan 02 10:29
schestowitzYes. "Our products just aren't engineered for security." 02 10:30
AxzHehe yeah nice findJan 02 10:32
AxzAlso trust in usage of Windows is critical, every time i speak to random people on IRc they ask me whats best linux distro to installJan 02 10:33
tessier"Our products just aren't engineered for security." - Brian Valentine at theJan 02 10:35
tessierWindows .Net Server developer conference Sep 2002.Jan 02 10:35
*tessier adds it to his quotes fileJan 02 10:35
schestowitzGoodJan 02 10:35
schestowitzI was only shown this 2 months ago, maybe lessJan 02 10:35
tessierhmm...that reminds me, I need to move all of my quote database to my new website.Jan 02 10:35
schestowitzWhich is importantJan 02 10:35
schestowitzMind the dateJan 02 10:35
schestowitzLater on, Microsoft brought up a different pitchJan 02 10:35
schestowitz"All operating systems are not secure"Jan 02 10:36
schestowitzThat was the new 'party line'Jan 02 10:36
schestowitzBut it's a fakeJan 02 10:36
Axzhehe but as i make article about last piracy takedown on the Microsoft's statement says below: Founded in 1975, Microsoft (Nasdaq “MSFT”) is the worldwide leader in software, services and solutions that help people and businesses realize their full potential.Jan 02 10:36
Axzi mean they really need to delete this... because its trashJan 02 10:37
schestowitzLet me find somehtingJan 02 10:38
tessierI wish there was some conclusive way to prove that it is the architecture and design methodology of Linux and not just that "nobody uses Linux so the crackers don't care" which explains why Linux has fewer problems.Jan 02 10:38
Axzfirst they are not anymore worldwide leading few other company's are, second, solution to what? since Xp they dind make any solution in software only help exploit develope fasterJan 02 10:38
schestowitz "Founded in 1975, Microsoft is the worldwide leader in bribery, extortion, blackmail and customer abuse."Jan 02 10:38
AxzlolJan 02 10:39
Axznice oneJan 02 10:39
tessier"Founded in 1975 Microsoft is the worldwide leader in fucking you out of your money."Jan 02 10:39
schestowitztessier: tell people about how many Linux servers exist on the WebJan 02 10:39
schestowitzLinux is VERY widespread.Jan 02 10:39
tessierThey don't believe it because they can't see it.Jan 02 10:39
AxzyeahJan 02 10:39
schestowitzdesktop != computerJan 02 10:39
tessierDesktops are all the average person knows.Jan 02 10:39
schestowitz>“Forty percent of servers run Windows, 60 percent run Linux...” --Steve Ballmer (September 2008)Jan 02 10:39
AxzI'm proud linux users since i had my first PC thanks to my dadJan 02 10:40
tessierAnd how many servers are there out there?Jan 02 10:40
tessierHe must know because he knows that 60% of them run Linux, right?Jan 02 10:40
schestowitzI don't know.Jan 02 10:40
schestowitzMicrosoft has intelligence.Jan 02 10:40
schestowitzThey also collect a list of ALL applications installed on ALL Windows boxesJan 02 10:40
schestowitzThese are sent periodically and they are allowed to do this (watch the EULA)Jan 02 10:40
schestowitzVista takes this intrusion several steps further.Jan 02 10:41
schestowitzIt's a rather diabolic versionJan 02 10:41
AxzHere is very simple statics for that 02 10:41
Axzis it me or there is lots of Linux/Unix around there :pJan 02 10:41
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schestowitzHey, oiaohm1 Jan 02 10:48
schestowitzAxz: especially embeddedJan 02 10:48
schestowitzIn the embedded space, Linux is schooling Microsoft, whose dumping of cheap Windows hardly saved it.Jan 02 10:48
schestowitzThe press hardly covers this very important fact; there are tens of billions devices made; many run Linux.Jan 02 10:49
oiaohm1Problem for Microsoft there is a bottom value then can sell for before they lose moneyJan 02 10:49
oiaohm1Patents and paying Novell.Jan 02 10:50
oiaohm1Linux only controls about 40 percent of the embedded market.Jan 02 10:53
oiaohm1Major limitation is lack of rtos status.Jan 02 10:53
tessierRTOS isn't at all important for most of what most people consider the "embedded" market these days.Jan 02 10:54
tessierThe definition of embedded has changed, for better or worse.Jan 02 10:54
tessierIt is better for Linux this way. The things that require RTOS do not have much customer visibility anyway.Jan 02 10:54
schestowitzoiaohm1: yes, about 40%Jan 02 10:54
tessierBut cell phones and GPS navigation devices and home cablemodem routers and DVR's etc are in peoples faces all the time.Jan 02 10:55
schestowitzRTOS is improving tooJan 02 10:55
schestowitzThey got this capability improves in 2.6.27 IIRCJan 02 10:55
schestowitzI have the references at hand.Jan 02 10:55
oiaohm1tessier is cost of parts.  RTOS kernel can make some devices cheeper.Jan 02 10:55
schestowitzRTOS giants like Wind River move to Linux alsoJan 02 10:56
oiaohm1Skipping handling chips for stuff and using the OS it self.Jan 02 10:56
schestowitzThey use the proprietary parts for added valueJan 02 10:56
schestowitzSame with LynuxWorks, which has some Linux distro whose name I can't recallJan 02 10:56
schestowitzSomething like Lynx or pumaJan 02 10:56
oiaohm140 to 50 percent in the embed market is about as far as you can go without good rtos support.Jan 02 10:57
schestowitzSomething from the family of catsJan 02 10:57
oiaohm1What is still way better than what MS holds in the embeded market what is a basicaly 0Jan 02 10:58
oiaohm1Just looked LynuxWorks up its BlueCat LinuxJan 02 10:59
*tessier adds a Linux Headlines RSS portlet to the Linux page of his websiteJan 02 11:00
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oiaohmJust got to a more sane client.Jan 02 11:01
schestowitzBleuCat!Jan 02 11:02
schestowitzYes, that's the one.Jan 02 11:02
tessiersacre-bleu!Jan 02 11:03
schestowitzThey always have fallbacks these RTOS brands that are knownJan 02 11:03
schestowitzMicrosoft renamed its embedded space contenderJan 02 11:03
tessierWhat are some good Linux news rss feeds? I've got /. and lwn...Jan 02 11:03
schestowitzBut changing names ain't a winning strategyJan 02 11:03
tessierWasn't WinCE their "embedded" OS?Jan 02 11:03
schestowitzIt also offered the thing for just $3 back in 2004 (IIRC)Jan 02 11:03
schestowitztessier: /., with all due respect, is filled with ads as 'news'Jan 02 11:04 02 11:04
schestowitzI dropped it after years or readingJan 02 11:04
tessierYeah, but the Linux only section isn't too bad.Jan 02 11:04
schestowitzTuxMachines.Jan 02 11:04
schestowitzHands down.Jan 02 11:04
oiaohmlynxos is lynuxworks other OS that has a Linux compadiblity layour like BSD.  2 gb memory limit on it.Jan 02 11:04
schestowitzI put a list here: 02 11:04
schestowitz    * TechDirtJan 02 11:04
schestowitz    * TuxMachinesJan 02 11:04
schestowitz    * HeiseJan 02 11:04
schestowitz    * LinuxDevicesJan 02 11:04
schestowitz    * PhoronixJan 02 11:04
schestowitz    * Royal HeHe2-nessJan 02 11:04
schestowitz    * Roberto GaloppiniJan 02 11:04
tessierCool! Thanks!Jan 02 11:05
schestowitzThese are the ones I trustJan 02 11:05
schestowitzNo money on the table and all...Jan 02 11:05
oiaohmWindows CE kernel functionally suxed.Jan 02 11:05
schestowitzThey de-emphasize it now.Jan 02 11:06
schestowitzIt lost the margins warJan 02 11:06
oiaohmWhat happens when you try to cut back a OS to make a embed OS get a dog.Jan 02 11:06
schestowitzWindows is now losing this war tooJan 02 11:06
schestowitzSub-notebooks being a major causeJan 02 11:06
schestowitzI don't know about servers, though.Jan 02 11:06
oiaohmThing people forget Windows NT was at first designed for Real time work.Jan 02 11:06
schestowitzOffice is getting cheap (less than GBP 100 over here, if one gets a discount)Jan 02 11:06
oiaohmThen some idiot put a non real time spinlock system in it.Jan 02 11:06
schestowitzWindows Mobile is dyingJan 02 11:07
schestowitz[say Microsoft fans]Jan 02 11:07
oiaohmReally Windows NT working as it was designed at first would be a threat.Jan 02 11:07
schestowitzIt's antiquated and it tried hard to use the 'familiar' Windows UI where it does not fit well.Jan 02 11:07
schestowitzWindows NT = "better UNIX than UNIX"? Really?Jan 02 11:08
tessier"I'm Linux. I mean, Linus. I keep typing that wrong." hahaJan 02 11:08
oiaohmWindows NT built as per it design.Jan 02 11:08
schestowitz2 days ago: 02 11:08
oiaohmNot the windows NT you know.Jan 02 11:08
schestowitztessier: there is a baby in Sweden called "Linux"Jan 02 11:08
schestowitz 02 11:09
tessierPoor kid.Jan 02 11:09
schestowitzComment: "My daughter is named Benedikte (after Linus Benedict Torvalds) - the closest I could get with a daughter - Linux/Linus are typical boys names. Benedikte was born in May 1998."Jan 02 11:09
oiaohmNT has all the parts to be a true real time kernel including ques on IO access so they could be prempted.   Completely stuffed by putting a normal not premptable spinlock systme in.Jan 02 11:09
oiaohmStuff Linux is trying to do now to become realtime was in the NT design from the start.Jan 02 11:10
oiaohmMicrosoft history is sad stack of short cuts and lack of quality control.Jan 02 11:11
schestowitzIf you can't make it good, at least make it look good.” -- BillGJan 02 11:12
oiaohmAlso the other Idea that stuffs Microsoft up is that all markets need there own OS.Jan 02 11:13
oiaohmSo instead of fixing up the NT kernel for phones and embeded devices they created windows moblie and windows ce.Jan 02 11:13
oiaohmCan microsoft have a logic shift in time and save self maybe.Jan 02 11:14
oiaohmBut I don't give them good odd.Jan 02 11:15
oiaohmOne of the sneekest exclusionary deals done a creative way.  Is Microsofts support for closed spec on hardware.Jan 02 11:16
oiaohmNo hardware specs no one able to built competting OS's.Jan 02 11:16
oiaohmOver time lots of people think its normal.   When before microsoft doing it.  The normal was open spec why the IBM XT machine was so cloneable.Jan 02 11:17
schestowitzTheir priorities changed.Jan 02 11:19
schestowitzI doubt they go after embedded now.Jan 02 11:19
oiaohmThey still are in a different way.Jan 02 11:19
schestowitzThat's the impression I got around June (ish) when there was a brouhaha about it.Jan 02 11:19
trmancothey are going after sub-netbooksJan 02 11:19
oiaohmDid you read that pay as you go patent.Jan 02 11:19
schestowitzAs for Windows Mobile, now they have Zune and they spend /HUGE/ amounts of money on some separate stuffJan 02 11:19
schestowitz" Danger" (the company) acquisition..Jan 02 11:20
schestowitzThere was also a company with an Asian names (IIRC) that does browser zooming for mobileJan 02 11:20
schestowitzThey replicate effortJan 02 11:20
schestowitziPhone and even Android make them shy of the competitionJan 02 11:20
schestowitztrmanco: would that be sub-sub-notebooks? :-)Jan 02 11:21
oiaohm  << Remember netcraft is microsoft.Jan 02 11:21
schestowitzoiaohm: pay as you play = desparationJan 02 11:21
trmanco:-PJan 02 11:21
schestowitzThis is not newsJan 02 11:21
schestowitzMary Jo Foley, like myself, knows that this is years oldJan 02 11:21
schestowitzThe patents alsoJan 02 11:21
schestowitzI knew about this patent over a year agoJan 02 11:22
schestowitzThey experimented, but I doubt it was economical successs.Jan 02 11:22
oiaohmJust like MS attacking china pirate who was there partner.Jan 02 11:22
schestowitzThey can't figure out how to monetise WindowsJan 02 11:22
oiaohmMicrosoft is getting desparation.Jan 02 11:22
schestowitzIn most of the world, Windows is 'free'Jan 02 11:22
schestowitzIf they charge for it, they lose more market to LinuxJan 02 11:22
trmancowhy have an OS on a netbook that eats up half your ram with no security, when you can get a netbook that consumes 300 and has all the security thing bundled?Jan 02 11:22
schestowitzBrazil and China are big example. India too to an extent.Jan 02 11:22
oiaohmFor along time MS has depended on ssl numbers to sell there servers.Jan 02 11:23
schestowitz*ExamplesJan 02 11:23
schestowitzChina used Red Flag  as a threat or bargaining cardJan 02 11:23
schestowitzThen Gates flew over (maybe just metaphorically) to negotiate 'free' WindowsJan 02 11:23
oiaohmChina using Red Flag as a sledge hammer.Jan 02 11:23
schestowitzNow the Chinese are forcing some shops to move to 'licensed' Linux (probably with back doors)Jan 02 11:23
oiaohmMS threatens China nukes that market with Red FlagJan 02 11:24
schestowitztrmanco: they try to change specs of sub-notebooksJan 02 11:24
schestowitzIf they can stop the low-end $199 sub-notebooks, they harm LinuxJan 02 11:24
oiaohmWorse China forces removal of windows completely from markets MS complains about.Jan 02 11:25
schestowitzBut Linux won't go away. They can't choke it like they did with Palm or NetscapeJan 02 11:25
oiaohmEven if the machine has a legal windows copy.Jan 02 11:25
schestowitzChina's military moves to Linux too, IIRCJan 02 11:25
schestowitzThey want to keys to the back doorsJan 02 11:25
oiaohmThey did not kill netscape completely.Jan 02 11:25
oiaohmFirefox still live and kicking quite well.Jan 02 11:25
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schestowitzWindows = FBI/CIA/NSA have the key, maybe sharing it with China after negitationJan 02 11:25
trmanconew microfoot (R) netbook specs: 8 GB ram, some Intel quad core/AMD opetron, a truck battery, 50 000 rpm hard drive with 500 GB of disk space :)Jan 02 11:26
schestowitzChina wants to be the only one with source code and key (they give Linux as binaries)Jan 02 11:26
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, because Netscape embraced open sourceJan 02 11:26
schestowitzGecko and all..Jan 02 11:26
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schestowitzThat's why Microosft is afraid of these licences that spread.Jan 02 11:26
oiaohmNetscape kicked off large section of commerical open source.Jan 02 11:27
schestowitzThey try to bury one company liek Linspire, but all the code is resurrected elsewhere.Jan 02 11:27
schestowitzThey want one throat to choke -- Novell.Jan 02 11:27
oiaohmNetscape might to be here any more but the effect they started most likely win in the end.Jan 02 11:27
oiaohmNovell is a vampireJan 02 11:27
schestowitzNo, a trapJan 02 11:28
oiaohmAlways has been.Jan 02 11:28
schestowitzIt's entrapping users under Microsoft's TERMSJan 02 11:28
oiaohmHow many companies that have been Novell partners in crime that are still alive today.Jan 02 11:28
schestowitzExamples?Jan 02 11:28
oiaohmSCO and Microsoft are the only 2 left.Jan 02 11:29
schestowitzWordPerfect?Jan 02 11:29
oiaohmAnd SCO is almost dead.Jan 02 11:29
oiaohmFrom Novells actions.Jan 02 11:29
schestowitzThey loved Ransom. :-)Jan 02 11:29
oiaohmNovell never would have entered the deal with Microsoft without a plan to destroy them.Jan 02 11:30
oiaohmSo Novell game would be that we would be slaves to Novell not Microsoft.Jan 02 11:30
oiaohmHistory of Novell that has never changed.Jan 02 11:31
schestowitzNovell's POV is differentJan 02 11:31
schestowitzIt's about being a friend of the BullyJan 02 11:31
schestowitzLike CitrixJan 02 11:31
schestowitzThe 'bad guys' are Red Hat, UNIX, Ubuntu, even Apple and Google.Jan 02 11:32
oiaohmNovell mode of operation be your friend remain your friend.   Set you up and kill you.Jan 02 11:32
oiaohmAnyone who as seen Novell aquire software contacts can tell you that first hand.Jan 02 11:33
oiaohmThat is even pre Microsoft.Jan 02 11:34
oiaohmI still think the SCO case was the most nasty.   Selling all Unix rights they had the right to transfer to SCO.  Due to the BSD vs Novell case there was bugger all that was transferable.Jan 02 11:35
oiaohmMono might manage to top it.Jan 02 11:36
schestowitzMono?Jan 02 11:37
schestowitzMicrosoft won't let itJan 02 11:37
schestowitzIn face, Microsoft is promoting the thing.Jan 02 11:37
schestowitzYou don't hand over nukes to your enemyJan 02 11:37
oiaohmRead the contract Novell got Microsoft into.Jan 02 11:38
oiaohmIf Microsoft does not premote Novell products its a breach of contract.Jan 02 11:38
oiaohmThere is no reverse requirement.Jan 02 11:38
schestowitzThat's wishful thinking. Novell spends no time criticising Microsoft.Jan 02 11:40
schestowitzDon't overestimate Microsoft's incompetence.Jan 02 11:40
oiaohmEven funnier was the requirement for Microsoft to hand out free coupons to for SUSE Linux.  That MS had to buy from Novel at full price of SUSE.Jan 02 11:41
oiaohmReally would you kick someone who is handing you cash.Jan 02 11:41
schestowitzThat's not a good thing.Jan 02 11:41
schestowitzThey try to block Free Linux.Jan 02 11:41
oiaohmNovell has never been about free OS.Jan 02 11:41
schestowitzThey find out where it catches on and then enforce Microsoft software patents upon companies.Jan 02 11:42
schestowitzThey set up precedence and liabilityJan 02 11:42
schestowitzNovell does not care; it thinks only of the money that it needs (or else it will die)Jan 02 11:42
oiaohmWhen is that fact new.Jan 02 11:42
oiaohmPre deal all Novell though about was that.Jan 02 11:43
schestowitzYes.Jan 02 11:43
schestowitzNot new, but does that matter?Jan 02 11:43
oiaohmNovell will turn on Microsoft as so as Microsoft cannot pay.Jan 02 11:44
oiaohmNot a good place to put yourself.Jan 02 11:44
oiaohmMS deal also proves that Novell patents are more valuable than Microsoft ones effectively rendering MS defensive patents useless.Jan 02 11:45
oiaohmQuestion with the MS Novell deal is who is going to be dead first.Jan 02 11:46
schestowitzNot reallyJan 02 11:48
schestowitzThey do it for side effectsJan 02 11:48
schestowitzBoth Microsoft and Novell are aligned against common rivalsJan 02 11:49
schestowitzThey collaborate, not fightJan 02 11:49
oiaohmSo was SCO and Novell before Novell set them up for death.Jan 02 11:49
schestowitzSCO was smallJan 02 11:49
schestowitzMicrosoft used it tooJan 02 11:50
oiaohmSCO and Novell were both the same size when they entered the deal with each other.Jan 02 11:50
oiaohmProblem for SCO when they found themselfs in the hole Novell created for them there was no way out so took money from anyone who would give it in the hope of finding a way out.Jan 02 11:52
oiaohmBefore Novell and SCO become friends just like Microsoft and Novell they were both competing in the same market.   Novell and SCO joined forces to take control of Linux as well.Jan 02 11:54
oiaohmHistroy is looping.Jan 02 11:54
schestowitzWhich year was this? SCO-Novell/Caldera?Jan 02 11:55
schestowitz*Oops. SCO/CalderaJan 02 11:55
oiaohmBack in the 1990.  I know that the money for Novell dryed up with the .net bubble burst.Jan 02 11:56
oiaohmYes history is repeating in more ways than 1.Jan 02 11:56
oiaohmSo the sale of the trap to SCO was about extracting the last bit of money out of SCO.Jan 02 11:57
oiaohmDestroying SCO was kinda ment to make Novell look like the white knight to the open source world.Jan 02 11:58
schestowitzYes.Jan 02 11:59
schestowitzThey sure fool some people.Jan 02 11:59
schestowitzWhite knight.. to MicrosoftJan 02 11:59
schestowitz"how novell stepped up and said intellectual property matters" -- Steve Ballmer (not exact quote)Jan 02 11:59
oiaohmNovell is never a White KnightJan 02 11:59
schestowitzFrom October 2007 meeting in the UKJan 02 11:59
oiaohmMicrosoft is not in a location to negotate with Novell.Jan 02 12:00
schestowitzOT: As Crisis Spreads, a Pinch Becomes a Squeeze < > Jan 02 12:00
oiaohmNovell has the patents to shut MS down.Jan 02 12:00
schestowitzHehe. No, Novell is frail.Jan 02 12:00
schestowitzit has patents, yes, but so does SunJan 02 12:01
schestowitzThey know from SCO what happens when they take this route.Jan 02 12:01
schestowitzOrem does not need another SCO killing its way down in courtJan 02 12:01
schestowitzShedding staff off like a zombie..Jan 02 12:02
schestowitzNovell shrank in 2008Jan 02 12:02
schestowitzWTF!Jan 02 12:03
schestowitzI have YouTube on "Novell" syndicatedJan 02 12:03
schestowitz"Oracle & Novell Dance To The Tune Of Chiquitita(Marian Rivera Inspired)"Jan 02 12:03
schestowitz 02 12:03
schestowitz"Oracle & Novel"?Jan 02 12:03
schestowitzDo they call kids after companies?Jan 02 12:03
schestowitz "Here in the UK, our skytv settop box crashed (lost all tv channels but not the menus precisley at 00:00 1/1/2009 needed a cold boot to get the channels back."Jan 02 12:07
oiaohm  Novell numbers for 2008 have barly been effected.Jan 02 12:08
oiaohmMain reason vampiring.Jan 02 12:09
schestowitzIn the past 7 hours, BoycottNovell sent over 10,000 pages to non-botsJan 02 12:09
schestowitzNot bad for a holiday. ;-)Jan 02 12:09
trmancoschestowitz, you got your server back? (usenet)?Jan 02 12:09
schestowitztrmanco: let me checkJan 02 12:09
trmancoforget itJan 02 12:09
trmancoit was a old post of yours that got up :|Jan 02 12:10
schestowitzNo, still unreachable, until kentma gets home from Canada.Jan 02 12:10
trmancookJan 02 12:10
schestowitzVampire don't lose staff (limbs) every yearJan 02 12:10
schestowitzNovell has shrunk for a long timeJan 02 12:11
schestowitzTop search queries in the past 30 hours:Jan 02 12:11
schestowitzmicrosoft layoffs14919.9 %Jan 02 12:11
schestowitzmicrosoft425.6 %Jan 02 12:11
schestowitzmicrosoft layoffs 2008374.9 %Jan 02 12:11
schestowitzmicrosoft layoff293.8 %Jan 02 12:11
schestowitzPeople want answers. Many people do.Jan 02 12:12
oiaohmGoogle has had the closet thing to layoffs ever.Jan 02 12:12
oiaohmDroping there part time staff.Jan 02 12:12
schestowitzYes, MS tooJan 02 12:12
oiaohm2009 could get bruttle.Jan 02 12:12
schestowitzBut MS keeps quiet about itJan 02 12:12
schestowitzSee the BN comment from Needs Sunlight (latest)Jan 02 12:13
schestowitzHe wrote about this a long time ago and I saw people ranting about it in USENETJan 02 12:13
oiaohmCutting full time staff is sign of major problems.Jan 02 12:13
schestowitzThey quietly see their contracts dropped (that does not formally count as "layoff"Jan 02 12:13
schestowitzbrittle?Jan 02 12:13
oiaohmbrutal  dyslexia/attempt correct did not work out.Jan 02 12:14
schestowitzThis will save the economy: 02 12:14
schestowitzMicrosoft goes into debt, but here is the thingJan 02 12:15
schestowitzI wrote about it years ago and like a gang of hyenas people attacked me.Jan 02 12:15
schestowitzBill Parish wrote about this tooJan 02 12:15
schestowitzHe pointed out that Microsoft silents voices of alarm by attacking themJan 02 12:15
schestowitzSame with the Gates Fundation [sic], which is not what people are led to believeJan 02 12:16
schestowitzMicrosoft's defence of its Big Lies is similar to some races that attack volces of truth.Jan 02 12:16
schestowitzDismissing them as crazy, zealot, or racistJan 02 12:16
oiaohmSo true.   I have crossed enough of them.Jan 02 12:16
oiaohmI have always been a pure logical to OS comparing.Jan 02 12:17
schestowitzHere's the thing again.Jan 02 12:17
schestowitzI may never get credit for saying this long ago when people tried to blind the messenger with heaps of Big Lies.Jan 02 12:17
schestowitzSame thing with THE ECNOMYJan 02 12:17
schestowitzHow many people warned it would collapse like this?Jan 02 12:17
schestowitzHow many of them were PUBLISHED on paper?Jan 02 12:18
schestowitzThey were marginalised and now that it turns out they were right all along, not a word it...Jan 02 12:18
oiaohmOne person published a complete 800 page book.Jan 02 12:18
schestowitz*about itJan 02 12:18
oiaohmIts a really good readJan 02 12:18
schestowitzLONG read :-)Jan 02 12:18
oiaohmMe 800 page book 6 hours reading.Jan 02 12:18
schestowitzWho in this age would read long book?Jan 02 12:18
oiaohmI have sleep problems from time to time.Jan 02 12:19
schestowitzPeople are lazy; they read headlines and summaries; the Net enables thisJan 02 12:19
oiaohmBook don't make any noise.Jan 02 12:19
schestowitzYou can't use them wellJan 02 12:19
schestowitzLike take or highlight bits, let alone searchJan 02 12:19
schestowitzI find that limitingJan 02 12:19
oiaohmI use electronic a lot too.  Its just for when I cannot sleep.Jan 02 12:20
schestowitzBeing physical, people use them as extensions/aides/buddies/accompanying things/enhancersJan 02 12:20
schestowitzThat's why some people prefer printer booksJan 02 12:20
schestowitzI'd hate having a good book only on paperJan 02 12:21
oiaohmNo one has made a good electronic book that does not manage to go flat right at the wrong time.Jan 02 12:21
schestowitzWith electronic version, you can produce (print) many copiesJan 02 12:21
schestowitzYou can also share them and carry them on a UDB stickJan 02 12:21
schestowitz.*USBJan 02 12:21
schestowitzI'be just realised that I confused Dave Methvin with Foley of the same publication.. 02 12:23
oiaohmProblem with truth is sooner or latter it comes out in a way you cannot stop.Jan 02 12:25
schestowitzI know.Jan 02 12:25
schestowitzJust watch the AstroTurfing evidence.Jan 02 12:26
oiaohmNow that support of Linux is going mainstream AstroTrufing is going to become insanely hard.Jan 02 12:26
schestowitzIf you watch closely, he said the collapse of the "Free market" triggered him to regret it.Jan 02 12:26
schestowitzBut.... IT'S also because I leaked itJan 02 12:26
schestowitzI sent it to Grolaw, which put out the text in full.Jan 02 12:26
schestowitzAnd then I drew lots of attention to it.Jan 02 12:26
oiaohmPersonally I really need to get a lot more proactive on quality control issues in open source.Jan 02 12:27
oiaohmMost hated myth about quality is time between releases is a factor.Jan 02 12:27
schestowitzIt'll be a super-slow year for business next year (few press releases and product announcements). Easier for me. :-)Jan 02 12:28
oiaohmI would not be too sure on that.Jan 02 12:28
schestowitzThere was an article in Heise about it yesterday(ish)Jan 02 12:28
oiaohmCould be a super insane year for you.Jan 02 12:28
schestowitzSome German guy wrote about Debian release (quality vs timeframe)Jan 02 12:28
schestowitzoiaohm: insane just for me? How come?Jan 02 12:29
oiaohmWindows 7 MS Office 2009 and the pres pack of media releases they do when ever there are new products.Jan 02 12:29
schestowitz 02 12:29
schestowitzGroklaw still in turtle pace mode  :-(Jan 02 12:30
schestowitzoiaohm: compared to previous years, that's not much. Vista7 might be released in 2010Jan 02 12:30
schestowitzReleased only to 'die'... Jan 02 12:30
schestowitzPeople won't be buying dual cores in the year to come.Jan 02 12:31
schestowitzThey can't afford it, so slim software wins.Jan 02 12:31
oiaohmQuality of code is directly liked to the Quality control processors you have.Jan 02 12:32
oiaohmNot to the time between releases.Jan 02 12:32
oiaohmProblem for distributions they try applying Quality Controls after the fact instead of in the projects producing the code for them.Jan 02 12:33
MinceRhayJan 02 12:35
schestowitzMicrosoft's ’technical evangelism’ structures are getting too rusty and people will hopefully start suing</a>, equipped with information and proof. 02 12:35
oiaohmRemember the old saying prevention beats cure.   So true for application construction.  If you have good quality controls on all alterations going into a project you don't have to try to find errors on the other side as much..Jan 02 12:37
oiaohmHi MinceRJan 02 12:38
schestowitzI see this spin re: ZuneJan 02 12:39
schestowitzIt's not Microsoft fault... it's somebody else's  (freezing)Jan 02 12:39
schestowitzThe hecklers in BN used that too (well, one of them did, which makes him worth suspicion)Jan 02 12:40
oiaohmAMD should have know better.  Who could forget the AIGLX stuff up between redhat and novellJan 02 12:42
oiaohmOr the promised evolution for windows.   That in the end turn out to run like a dog using cygwin and a X11 server on windows.Jan 02 12:43
schestowitzAMD had collabs going with NOVLJan 02 12:43
schestowitzThey still have that OpenSUSE sort of sponsorship/promotionJan 02 12:44
oiaohmI think the only thing that saved the deal was Novells deal with microsoft allowing them to come into contact with Microsoft protected stuff about Direct X.Jan 02 12:45
oiaohmIe the cross patent agreement thing.Jan 02 12:45
schestowitzWould it be so complex?Jan 02 12:48
oiaohmNot really.Jan 02 12:50
oiaohmNovell Microsoft patent deal is 100 percent protection to both parties as long it stays in effect from the others patents and IP.Jan 02 12:51
oiaohmSo what ever AMD has to aquire from Microsoft for Direct X compadiblity is covered.Jan 02 12:52
oiaohmNovell deal with Microsoft is quite complete.Jan 02 12:52
oiaohmReason for the requirement in the deal that Novell could not work on Wine.Jan 02 12:53
schestowitz But that would suggest Novell has some exclusive ownership of things it does with AMD.Jan 02 12:53
oiaohmNo it does not.Jan 02 12:53
schestowitzWhy Wine?Jan 02 12:54
oiaohmIf Novell comes into contact with a doc contain stuff needed for direct X no foul to AMD.Jan 02 12:54
schestowitzIt's not covered BTWJan 02 12:54
oiaohmIf Novell was allowed to work on wine they would be able to use there access to windows source code.Jan 02 12:54
oiaohmAnd other core documents to make applications work.Jan 02 12:55
oiaohmYes complete.Jan 02 12:55
oiaohmNow if Novell released Direct X docs that it go from AMD it would be foul on Novell.Jan 02 12:57
schestowitzDirectX?Jan 02 12:57
schestowitzWell, wait... why would they access DirectX?Jan 02 12:57
oiaohmSome sections of video card design are directly based of Direct X internal requirements.Jan 02 12:57
oiaohmJust like some sections of video cards are based of opengl requirements.Jan 02 12:58
oiaohmAMD breachs the agreement with Microsoft over that Direct X stuff and AMD would get cut out loop or at least risk it.Jan 02 12:59
oiaohmYes why its taking so long to get a lot of docs through legal departments of AMD.  Then there are other bits protected by patents held by S3 and the like.Jan 02 13:00
schestowitzBut does Novell need to give its engineer access to DirectX stuff?Jan 02 13:01
schestowitzI doubt it. They should be able to process just OGL instructionsJan 02 13:01
oiaohmIts more case of mistake.Jan 02 13:01
oiaohmNovell is safer for AMD to be passing docs to.Jan 02 13:01
oiaohmSince it don't count.Jan 02 13:01
schestowitzBut whose patents and NDAs?Jan 02 13:02
schestowitzNovell is only in bed with the Vole.Jan 02 13:02
schestowitzAnd has some patents to cross-license with, but the code is freely distributedJan 02 13:02
oiaohmNDA exists between Microsoft and every video card maker with Direct X support.Jan 02 13:02
oiaohmThat is a big one.Jan 02 13:03
oiaohmS3 no foul for a closed source driver builder working for a company coming in contact with sections its got under NDA.Jan 02 13:03
oiaohmMost of the others are like S3 one.Jan 02 13:04
oiaohmMicrosoft one is the one with teeth to take your arms off as a video card maker.Jan 02 13:04
schestowitzEven for OpenGL?Jan 02 13:05
oiaohmOpengl is mostly safe.Jan 02 13:05
schestowitzUnless Novell needs access to DirectX, I don't see it..Jan 02 13:06
oiaohmS3 patent covers a form of texture compression.Jan 02 13:06
oiaohmThat is optional to be used by opengl.Jan 02 13:06
oiaohmDocs for video card design not always neatly sorted schestowitzJan 02 13:06
oiaohmOne function might be used in Direct X and Opengl for two different functions.Jan 02 13:07
oiaohmIe function names.Jan 02 13:07
oiaohmIts more comming into contact with it in the design documents.Jan 02 13:08
oiaohmYes part of creating open source ATI drivers has been spliting the documents in 2.Jan 02 13:09
schestowitzSo you're suggesting that licences with Microsoft somehow get passed to Novell?Jan 02 13:09
schestowitzThis does not convince me.Jan 02 13:10
schestowitzIn fact, they were able to look for Red Hat developersJan 02 13:10
schestowitzI assume you saw my last post.Jan 02 13:10
oiaohmRedhat equals having to split the documents before passing them over.Jan 02 13:11
oiaohmNovell and Microsoft agreement gave Novell protection from IP breach with Microsoft.   So Novell coming into contact with something NDA protected by Microsoft would be the same as Microsoft coming into contact with it.  No foul.Jan 02 13:13
schestowitzIs there any confirmation of this?Jan 02 13:14
schestowitzIf it had reasons, someone would say it.Jan 02 13:14
schestowitzNovell or its developers, I reckon.Jan 02 13:14
schestowitzAs if to say, "look, the deal with Microsoft was good because yadda yadda..."Jan 02 13:15
oiaohmIts a double sided sword.Jan 02 13:15
oiaohmJust because Novel can come into contact with MS NDA protected stuff does not mean they can release it.Jan 02 13:15
schestowitz*LOL* > 02 13:15
oiaohmIts a protection part of the deal in Novel and Microsoft.   It was released to the stock exchange.Jan 02 13:16
oiaohmTo me ages to get all the details of all the conditions and effects worked out from it.Jan 02 13:17
oiaohmEnd Novell wins.Jan 02 13:17
oiaohmFree advertising and Money.Jan 02 13:17
schestowitzYes, I have that SEC filing.Jan 02 13:20
schestowitzAbout patentsJan 02 13:20
oiaohmThere is more in there.Jan 02 13:20
schestowitzI disagree about it being a win, certainly not for GNU/Linux as a whole. it's Novell and Microsoft trashing the F/OSS ecosystem for seflish gain.Jan 02 13:21
oiaohmF/0SS ecosystem destroying was always Novells goal.Jan 02 13:21
schestowitz 02 13:22
oiaohmSection 10 of sec filing schestowitz wording is extreamly open and extreamly protecting.Jan 02 13:39
oiaohmProblem is in the over use of orJan 02 13:40
oiaohmSome sections really should have been and.Jan 02 13:44
oiaohmAlso section 11 cuts on MS teeth to hit back hard.Jan 02 13:49
trmancoWill Go to the Ball this Year?: 02 14:00
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jan 02 14:00
trmancoMore on Microsoft layoffs: 02 14:08
trmanco"Then take into consideration that Microsoft hires a lot of employees via agencies and that this number of employees aren't included in the total head count at Microsoft. There's a big chance that a large chunk of the 17 percent figure could come out of the agency staff."Jan 02 14:08
schestowitzThanls.Jan 02 14:16
schestowitzNo surprises there.Jan 02 14:17
schestowitz 02 14:33

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