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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: January 3rd, 2009 - Part 2


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schestowitz>> "Oh I have IDC actually sending the draft of thier TCO report to MS for review and comment as well"Jan 03 13:02
schestowitzmib_o21sxr: which would that be?Jan 03 13:02
schestowitzI know of one where Kevin Turner, IIRC, tries to gag a sponsorship disclosure.Jan 03 13:03
MinceRactually no apple products are work devicesJan 03 13:03
MinceRthey only make toysJan 03 13:03
schestowitzIs this related to the "developing markets" study?Jan 03 13:03
MinceRFisher-Price My First Computer 03 13:03
schestowitz*LOL* 03 13:05
schestowitzI was trying to find some Mac ad, but this one came upJan 03 13:05
MinceR 03 13:10
mib_o21sxrhah don't get me started on O'GaraJan 03 13:12
mib_o21sxrI have an email from MS where they specifically say she will plant an unattributed story for themJan 03 13:13
mib_o21sxrand where she will ask questions for them so it "looks better"Jan 03 13:13
MinceRlolJan 03 13:13
mib_o21sxrshe's bought and paid forJan 03 13:13
schestowitzYesJan 03 13:14
schestowitzSomeone mailed me today with a reference to herJan 03 13:14
schestowitzMostly BS of course.Jan 03 13:14
MinceRthe article i linked isn't pro-m$ thoughJan 03 13:14
schestowitzBut it's marked "PERSONAL", so I can't shareJan 03 13:15
*schestowitz organises some gems about OLPCJan 03 13:15
mib_o21sxri can share the MS mail using her nameJan 03 13:15
mib_o21sxrhold oneJan 03 13:15
schestowitzI have 4 posts about MS coming.Jan 03 13:15
schestowitzI just need to tody them upJan 03 13:16
schestowitz*tidyJan 03 13:16
schestowitzmib_o21sxr: I wrote about ittwiceJan 03 13:16
schestowitzI know the person who sent it to Groklaw tooJan 03 13:16
mib_o21sxr 03 13:16
mib_o21sxroh :( i didn't see your write up on itJan 03 13:16
schestowitz 03 13:17
schestowitz 03 13:17
schestowitzMOG of Hollywood: 03 13:17 was down. :-SJan 03 13:18
mib_o21sxryou have the IDC report being mailed to microsoft for review before being publishedJan 03 13:18
mib_o21sxr?Jan 03 13:18
oiaohmThat would need more careful inspection.  Was MS the only one they sent it to for review.  mib_o21sxr  Because if they sent to many parities from both sides it would be valid and above board.Jan 03 13:20
mib_o21sxr 03 13:21
mib_o21sxrwhat do you think?Jan 03 13:21
mib_o21sxri also have "I hate to put it like this, but at this point, IDC is done negotiating with us. We have moved them quite a bit already, but they are now holding the line, saying that if we want the names of their ‘big’ analysts on the report this is it."Jan 03 13:21
mib_o21sxrin a different emailJan 03 13:21
schestowitzWoo. This is new to me.Jan 03 13:22
schestowitzThat also kills IFG's credibilityJan 03 13:22
mib_o21sxroh? hooray i have some more email on that IDC report thenJan 03 13:22
schestowitzThey are denialists for MicrosoftJan 03 13:22
mib_o21sxrhold oneJan 03 13:22
schestowitzAdvertisers, whetever... they have LOTS of new sites.Jan 03 13:22
mib_o21sxr 03 13:22
schestowitzIDC is a shill for Microsoft for many other reasons that I coveredJan 03 13:23
schestowitzSee for example: 03 13:23
schestowitzAnd 03 13:23
schestowitzThat one from Johnson I've seen beforeJan 03 13:25
oiaohmThat first documents alone is not enough to win case.  Problem you would have to be sure they had not contacted other parties for review.  Action is suspect but that is as far as it goes.Jan 03 13:29
oiaohmSecound one if the matching document has had that MS funded it removed that is a real breach of standards.Jan 03 13:29
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oiaohmThere is a reason why in a court case many documents are presented mib_o21sxr.   Because many times  they are needed on combination to prove action in anti-trust case.Jan 03 13:32
oiaohmYes hard bit is making sure you have worked out jigsaw so your own ass is covered.Jan 03 13:32
mib_o21sxrright ... mainly I'm focused on: http://meandubuntu.wordpress.c...Jan 03 13:33
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, that second one I documented in like 50 posts of mine :-)Jan 03 13:33
mib_o21sxrbut i keep a note of any interesting "other stuff" to pass alongJan 03 13:33
mib_o21sxrlike the OLPC one and so forthJan 03 13:33
schestowitzIn face, afterwards it reached the 'press' tooJan 03 13:33
schestowitzBmightyJan 03 13:33
mib_o21sxri know most of it is old and known, but maybe sometimes there is something new in the exhibitsJan 03 13:34
oiaohmInterlinks between the documents are important at times to get there context mib_o21sxrJan 03 13:34
schestowitzThat's a very good colelctionJan 03 13:35
mib_o21sxrthanks!Jan 03 13:35
MinceR"the MacBook Air is easily the most expensive, worst value for the dollar computer I have ever owned--and I have a Cube sitting in a closet somewhere."Jan 03 13:35
MinceRsounds like somebody who doesn't learn from his mistakesJan 03 13:35
schestowitzJim Gray (Microsoft Research): "Linux is a cult that captures the best-and-brightest kids."Jan 03 13:36
schestowitzHe died about 6  months agoJan 03 13:36
MinceRthe others should follow his exampleJan 03 13:36
MinceRit's funny how these cultists are all-too-eager to call everyone who disagrees with their cult a "cultist"Jan 03 13:37
schestowitzYesJan 03 13:37
schestowitzHypocritesJan 03 13:37
MinceRi know a microsoft cleric who has done the same to me recentlyJan 03 13:37
mib_o21sxrYeah, that is one of my pet peeves, trying to illustrate that a bit thereJan 03 13:37
schestowitzA government delegates compared Microsoft to "Scientology cult"Jan 03 13:37
schestowitz*delegateJan 03 13:37
mib_o21sxrThat's why it's important FLOSS activists try to stick closer to facts and solid, logical argumentsJan 03 13:38
schestowitzmib_o21sxr: I'll use these to cover the stuff more extensively, with attrib.Jan 03 13:38
mib_o21sxrplease feel freeJan 03 13:38
schestowitzIt's a goldmine for oldieJan 03 13:38
schestowitz*oldies. I have some in 03 13:39
schestowitzYou'll find many additions highlighted ther.eJan 03 13:39
mib_o21sxrcoolJan 03 13:40
oiaohmPlease make sure the documents you are using provide enough evidence not to bite mib_021sxr.  We need researchers and collectors of this kind of information.  Not getting themselfs into trouble because the document alone does not provide the enough to prove wrong doing.Jan 03 13:43
mib_o21sxrWell I'm not trying to prove anything there, just giving quotes and my thoughts on themJan 03 13:43
mib_o21sxrdo you think there is some danger there? i'm new to this and open to commentsJan 03 13:44
oiaohmQuotes on something badly out of context can get you in trouble mib_o21sxr.Jan 03 13:44
oiaohmI am not saying don't do it.  Just be sure of your position before risking foot in mouth.Jan 03 13:44
mib_o21sxrWell, I link to the source for every single quoteJan 03 13:44
oiaohmIts just care.   Some cases a document can seam to point one way when it is the other way just due to context.Jan 03 13:46
mib_o21sxri see your point. I'm sort of basing my effort off of ESR's on the Halloween memos so I might adopt some of his languageJan 03 13:47
mib_o21sxrfor a little for CYAJan 03 13:47
mib_o21sxr*a little more CYAJan 03 13:47
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schestowitzoiaohm: yes, I link to themJan 03 13:50
schestowitzBut we need OCRJan 03 13:50
MinceRm$ cultists don't care about facts and logicJan 03 13:50
schestowitzI'll ask readers for helpJan 03 13:50
MinceRthey're write-onlyJan 03 13:50
oiaohmClassic exampe of context.  Is australian wine makers though french wine makers calling there wine machine like.  Turn out the french were prasing on constant quality the Australian were producting.Jan 03 13:50
oiaohmand the Australian though it whas being critical.Jan 03 13:51
schestowitzI'm just rechecking the arguments in the mailJan 03 13:52
schestowitzI got the perfect photo now.Jan 03 13:53
oiaohmMinceR worst part I find lot of so called MS cultists think they know the facts are are following logic.Jan 03 13:53
schestowitz 03 13:53
oiaohmWhy logical argument with correct facts does win against them.Jan 03 13:53
mib_o21sxrit might not win against them - but *nothing* will win against them - it *will* win against truly neutral and interested parties thoughJan 03 13:55
oiaohmIts sorting the two out mib_o21sxrJan 03 13:55
schestowitzOK, I'm too negligent to write much that's original. I'll just post some bits of the convoersationJan 03 13:55
mib_o21sxrthat's why good arguments are more important than "scoring points"Jan 03 13:55
mib_o21sxroiaohm: sure it's hard to sort out, but I'm saying it doesn't matter, just make the best solid logical argument you can and then leave it at thatJan 03 13:56
mib_o21sxri know it's hard, but it is effective in the log runJan 03 13:56
mib_o21sxr(i tell myself anyway :) )Jan 03 13:56
mib_o21sxr(it's hard to fight the human desire to get the last word in, I know - i'm as guilty as anyone is of it)Jan 03 13:57
oiaohmA truly neutral party could have always gone to a Microsoft Confernece or hang around with the wrong crowd and picked up wrong ideas.  Funny enough most are that.Jan 03 13:57
oiaohmYou do see extreamest on the Linux side created the same way.Jan 03 13:57
schestowitzI'll post it as I continue editing (it's rough... like a draft).Jan 03 13:57
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schestowitzTell me how to imrove it (or typos) as I go through it editing: 03 13:58
mib_o21sxrextremists on "our side" is true, and it's a problem too - because it's like the news where they always get the most ignorant colorful local person to interviewJan 03 13:58
mib_o21sxrit's a quick way to paint a whole community as "zealots" or insane or whateverJan 03 13:59
mib_o21sxrfloss doesn't have the slick PR and endless propaganda monies that MS has thoughJan 03 13:59
mib_o21sxrso we have to be smarterJan 03 13:59
mib_o21sxr(again just my developing philosophy)Jan 03 13:59
oiaohmAll sides have zealots.  If you look far enough you can still find c64 ones.Jan 03 14:01
mib_o21sxrha true that ... for sure if you say amiga zealotsJan 03 14:01
schestowitzmib_o21sxr: they open their mouths at confsJan 03 14:02
schestowitzI've recorded some stuff from OSBCJan 03 14:02
schestowitzThe Microsoft staff is saying nasty things about us 'thief', but the press just quotes PR depts.Jan 03 14:02
mib_o21sxryup no doubtJan 03 14:03
oiaohmFloss has really had a fairly slick PR system.Jan 03 14:03
mib_o21sxrI wish I had the money to fund a "FLOSS PR" project, but we have to make do with what we canJan 03 14:03
oiaohmJust its a bit hard to push a product into a market where its not ready.Jan 03 14:03
oiaohmThink about all the wins Floss has had in the super computer market.Jan 03 14:04
schestowitzMore markets tooJan 03 14:04
oiaohmThat required PR killing all the Unix's out there.Jan 03 14:04
schestowitzIBM doesn't careJan 03 14:04
schestowitzIt markets Z series or whateverJan 03 14:04
schestowitzDoesn't mater what it runs.Jan 03 14:04
oiaohmI would not say does not care.Jan 03 14:04
schestowitzThe brands marketed are Novell, BIM, H-P, SGI, etc.Jan 03 14:04
mib_o21sxrI see what you are saying but I'm not sure I would call those *PR* winsJan 03 14:04
schestowitzLinux is a  pool, not a companyJan 03 14:04
schestowitzGNU is a scary philosophy to them.Jan 03 14:05
oiaohmNumbers of hours HP IBM and others put into making sure Linux runs on the hardware well.Jan 03 14:05
oiaohmAnd they to advertise it to there customers.  IBM and HP both provide Linux solutions to the high end servers.Jan 03 14:05
mib_o21sxryeah i can agree with that...i've seen a few good linux commercials on you tube for exampleJan 03 14:06
mib_o21sxri mean professional stuffJan 03 14:06
oiaohmLinux is a pool catch is different sections do PR work.Jan 03 14:06
oiaohmSo yes there are some really good PR systems around FLOSS.   But unlike microsoft FLOSS can have the appearance of many parties backing FLOSS that is purely above board without having to pay anything.Jan 03 14:07
mib_o21sxrroy: take out the EDGI quote in the OLPC ... there's no EDGI action in there i was referencing something elseJan 03 14:08
mib_o21sxri mean it is pretty much a slush fund, but it's not in play in that emailJan 03 14:09
schestowitzOKJan 03 14:09
oiaohmSoftware Product be good quality for targeted market you don't have to pay PR companies.  Hardware companies do it for you.Jan 03 14:09
oiaohmReally MS needing a Large PR department is a sign of a problem.Jan 03 14:10
mib_o21sxrwell on the open source side, some PR will surely come that wayJan 03 14:10
mib_o21sxron the straight Free Software side, we need a little helpJan 03 14:10
mib_o21sxri mean i love rms, but he ain't no PR guru :)Jan 03 14:10
schestowitzI commented that outJan 03 14:10
oiaohmRMS is a walking PR nightmare.Jan 03 14:10
schestowitzI did it all very fact, si it's a poor post.Jan 03 14:11
schestowitzI have other posts to do quickly.Jan 03 14:11
schestowitzRMS appeals not to a business crowdJan 03 14:11
schestowitzBut he can appeal to younger developersJan 03 14:11
schestowitzPeter Brown's appearance probably appeases the business type.Jan 03 14:11
oiaohmBusiness Crowd equals money to do things.Jan 03 14:11
mib_o21sxrI have his one book Free Software: Free Society and his ideas are powerful, but unfortunately he needs some help putting them out thereJan 03 14:12
oiaohmRMS has great ideas but he does not have the tacked to be the front man.Jan 03 14:12
mib_o21sxryeah, i agree, it's unfair, but i'm afraid that's just realityJan 03 14:13
oiaohmLot of RMS ideas are not anti-business.   Just he presents them wrong.Jan 03 14:13
MinceRwell, that's what we have Bruce Perens for :>Jan 03 14:14
mib_o21sxrWhat about Lessig? I haven't read any of his books, but his articles read wellJan 03 14:14
oiaohmDon't say this is bad.   Show where its more profitable to do the right thing in a lot of cases and less profitable to do the bad thing long term and you win.Jan 03 14:14
MinceRdunno, i haven't read a lot of Lessig yetJan 03 14:14
MinceRand then there's ESR, tooJan 03 14:15
mib_o21sxresr/perens are too focused on open source ... ibm/red hat/etc will handle open source PRJan 03 14:15
mib_o21sxri mean Free Software PRJan 03 14:15
MinceRicJan 03 14:16
mib_o21sxrnot knocking those guys, just drawing a distinctionJan 03 14:16
MinceRi thought Perens said open source and free sw are the same thingJan 03 14:16
MinceR(i know there are differences due to the differences between the OSD and the FSD)Jan 03 14:16
mib_o21sxri just read a good contrast of their positionsJan 03 14:16
mib_o21sxrlet me see if i can find it againJan 03 14:16
oiaohmPerens did.  He really don't see the difference.Jan 03 14:17
mib_o21sxrI'm thinking of his Wikipedia article, but I see it doesn't really contrast it as much as I thoughtJan 03 14:17
oiaohmReally RMS bad PR events are basically out weight by cost savings of using open source.Jan 03 14:18
oiaohmFor  lot of hardware companies.Jan 03 14:19
mib_o21sxrheh, like writing off a charitable contribution for tax purposes :)Jan 03 14:19
oiaohmIts not like support MS was above cases of stupidity.Jan 03 14:20
schestowitzmib_o21sxr: Lessig is no FLOSS guyJan 03 14:21
schestowitzHe's a Mac user and all.Jan 03 14:21
schestowitzWould make a bad spreker for Free softwareJan 03 14:21
schestowitzIn fact, he DOUBTED the movement would succeed in its early daysJan 03 14:21
schestowitzHe was wrong and he openly admitted this some months agoJan 03 14:22
mib_o21sxrah, i didn't know that ... he has some very pro-FLOSS writingsJan 03 14:22
oiaohmRemember some of the best speekers for Microsoft don't believe what they are saying.Jan 03 14:22
schestowitzESR with his trigger-happy gun fetish..? Oh no.. :-)Jan 03 14:22
oiaohmInstead are cool no matter how much you try to prevoke them because of it.Jan 03 14:23
MinceRthat gun fetish could appeal to someJan 03 14:23
schestowitzoiaohm: Perees is concerned about Microsoft and others (CPAL) ruining open sourceJan 03 14:23
MinceRi'm for bearing arms, for example :)Jan 03 14:23
MinceRif guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have gunsJan 03 14:23
MinceR...and the state which you can't trustJan 03 14:23
mib_o21sxrwell, peres has himself to blame for that some degree. "open" is just as easy to subvert as "free" isJan 03 14:23
mib_o21sxrand it's a lot quicker to draw in people with non-idealogical motivesJan 03 14:24
oiaohmAustralia is a good example guns are outlawed.   Yes we do have less gun crime.Jan 03 14:24
MinceRperhaps we do need people with non-ideological motivesJan 03 14:24
mib_o21sxrwhich might be good commericially, but is poor philosophicallyJan 03 14:24
schestowitzPerens is close to RMS; ESR is not.Jan 03 14:24
mib_o21sxrtrue, but as rms says "words matter", and perens was OK with the "free software should be called oopen souce" thingJan 03 14:25
mib_o21sxrthat was a mistake i thinkJan 03 14:25
mib_o21sxrconvenient and maybe even good to get things going, but still a bit of a mistakeJan 03 14:25
oiaohmThere was a lot of arguments of the free software and open source ideas.Jan 03 14:26
oiaohmfree implies the idea that you don't have to give anything back.Jan 03 14:26
oiaohmOpen implies secuirty holes.Jan 03 14:26
oiaohmSo either way both sux.Jan 03 14:26
mib_o21sxrtrue there is no good single wordJan 03 14:26
oiaohmI think its one of those rare cases of either wait for exceptance of you would have to create a new word completely to descibe it.Jan 03 14:27
mib_o21sxri agree. the split between Free/Open hurt that as well ... although *maybe* the "FLOSS" acronymn is helping re-join things a bitJan 03 14:28
oiaohmFLOSS is the create a new word solution.Jan 03 14:29
MinceRi think i've heard statistics where allowing gun ownership reduced crimeJan 03 14:29
schestowitzLibre would be goodJan 03 14:29
MinceRbut i don't have a link :/Jan 03 14:29
schestowitzOf freedom softwareJan 03 14:29
oiaohmHere it  MinceR gun crime has become rare.Jan 03 14:29
schestowitzFreedom != cheapness, not even in EnglishJan 03 14:29
MinceRoiaohm: there can be multiple reasons for thatJan 03 14:30
oiaohmPartly police policy.   Carring a gun illegaly is death.Jan 03 14:30
mib_o21sxr"Freedom" is a better *word*, but a worse *adjective*Jan 03 14:30
MinceRcarrying a gun illegally can occur regardless of whether you prohibit gunsJan 03 14:31
oiaohmKnife and baseball bat crime has gone up.Jan 03 14:31
MinceRyou might restrict gun ownership to people who have participated in trainingJan 03 14:31
MinceRand know how to use a gunJan 03 14:31
oiaohmSecuirty guards and the like here can still have rights to carry guns.Jan 03 14:31
oiaohmGeneral public is also restricted on carring knives in public.Jan 03 14:32
MinceRthe ability to learn how to use a gun isn't restricted to security guards and armed forcesJan 03 14:32
oiaohmYes you can learn to use them.   Without permits and the like you cannot keep them.Jan 03 14:33
MinceRoh, btwJan 03 14:33
MinceR153716 < oiaohm> Partly police policy.   Carring a gun illegaly is death.Jan 03 14:33
MinceRdeath for whom?Jan 03 14:33
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MinceRthe carrier or the police officer?Jan 03 14:33
MinceRor random bystanders?Jan 03 14:33
mib_n4pn5zboo FF crashedJan 03 14:33
MinceRalso, what if a policeman isn't around to check for guns?Jan 03 14:33
oiaohmCarrier Police shot first sort out latter.  And yes they are a good shot.Jan 03 14:34
MinceRwhat's going to prevent your burglar or mugger to carry a gun when he attacks you?Jan 03 14:34
oiaohmHolding a knife you will get asked to put it down.Jan 03 14:34
MinceRlaw-abiding citizens won't keep guns if you prohibit gunsJan 03 14:34
oiaohmGun no request like that.  Just shot death done.Jan 03 14:34
MinceRunfortunately, criminals by definition don't follow the lawJan 03 14:34
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oiaohmCriminals are not dumb.Jan 03 14:35
MinceR(well, be one particular definition)Jan 03 14:35
MinceRs/be/by/Jan 03 14:35
MinceRthat's why they'll hide the gunJan 03 14:35
MinceRand avoid authoritiesJan 03 14:35
MinceRyou can't put a police officer to guard every single citizenJan 03 14:35
oiaohmDraw gun get seen dead.Jan 03 14:35
oiaohmDraw knife get seen get a chance to live.Jan 03 14:36
oiaohmWhat one would you choose.Jan 03 14:36
MinceR"Myth No. 1: Guns cause crime. A review of the academic literature shows that there is no relationship between the number of guns and the amount of crime in the United States. Criminologists Gary Kleck and E. Britt Patterson reported in 1993 their finding that gun ownership had no significant effect on the rates of murder, assault, robbery, or rape in the U.S. Between 1973 and 1992, the rate of gun ownership in the U.S. increased by 45 percent Jan 03 14:37
MinceR 03 14:37
schestowitz 03 14:37
MinceRoiaohm: or draw a gun and shoot the policeman before he can reactJan 03 14:37
MinceRbecause you know it's your only chanceJan 03 14:37
mib_n4pn5zah one point i thought of one that IDC quoteJan 03 14:37
oiaohmPoliceman here don't travel single.Jan 03 14:38
mib_n4pn5zit implies that they could still get the report tweaked more, it would just carry a "lesser" analysts nameJan 03 14:38
MinceRyou keep assuming that policemen will be present everywhere someone decides to use a gunJan 03 14:38
MinceRwell they won'tJan 03 14:38
mib_n4pn5zthat might be too much speculation, but it's one of the things i thought of when reading itJan 03 14:38
oiaohmOf course they not.Jan 03 14:38
MinceRalso, criminals don't necessarily travel single eitherJan 03 14:38
MinceRand it's considerably riskier to draw a gun if a large part of the bystanders are armed tooJan 03 14:39
oiaohmCriminals have been shown here not to take unrequired risk.Jan 03 14:39
MinceRso they'll mug you where there aren't policemen aroundJan 03 14:39
oiaohmAlso more armed equals need to be armed.Jan 03 14:39
MinceRand they'll break into your house when there are no policemen visitingJan 03 14:40
oiaohmThere are basically no gun usage in crimes here at all.Jan 03 14:40
schestowitzmib_n4pn5z: fair pointJan 03 14:40
MinceRwhich means that prohibiting guns didn't really stop crime, did it?Jan 03 14:40
MinceRpeople will just use other weapons or bare hands that need more trainingJan 03 14:41
oiaohmThey don't need to defend themself against public and police play by rules when not having gun is safe.Jan 03 14:41
MinceRand those who plan to assault others have better access to such trainingJan 03 14:41
MinceRnot having a gun is not safeJan 03 14:41
schestowitzMinceR: other weapons are less lethal.Jan 03 14:41
oiaohmSo we have like no cases of shoot outs effecting bystandarders.Jan 03 14:41
MinceRyou can still be kicked or knifed to deathJan 03 14:41
schestowitzThey are also easier to escapeJan 03 14:42
MinceRschestowitz: so i'll only be a little bit dead if they cut my throat?Jan 03 14:42
MinceRi'll feel very relieved if that happens :>Jan 03 14:42
oiaohmGuns basically increase the numbers of people who end up hurt.Jan 03 14:42
schestowitzMinceR: depends on how a mugger approaches you.Jan 03 14:42
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oiaohmDoes not really alter the crime factor.Jan 03 14:42
schestowitzRob Weir was mugged in GenevaJan 03 14:42
MinceRoiaohm: read my quote again.Jan 03 14:42
schestowitzHe went to the corrupt OOXML BRMJan 03 14:42
schestowitzSome guy put a knife on him, IIRCJan 03 14:43
schestowitzMaybe I read it too quickly, I dunnoJan 03 14:43
schestowitzMugging and crime already rise because of the DepressionJan 03 14:43
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schestowitzHey, ushimitsudoki Jan 03 14:43
MinceR"Myth No. 2: Gun control laws reduce crime. Firearms have been regulated with increasing stringency in the United States for most of the past thirty years. Nevertheless, the number of firearms in private hands has increased continuously by many millions per year; handguns have become an increasing proportion of privately owned firearms; and rates of crime, violent crime, and homicide have shown no relationship to the passage or enforcement of gJan 03 14:43
ushimitsudokibah got tired of IRC through firefoxJan 03 14:43
ushimitsudokihowdyJan 03 14:43
oiaohmYes but they did not cover something.   Numbers of mansluters of bystanders caused by shoot outs.Jan 03 14:44
oiaohmRobberies are more likely to be not front on.Jan 03 14:44
oiaohmSince person is not carring a gun.Jan 03 14:45
oiaohmRate might not change by the causlities do.Jan 03 14:45
oiaohmReducing crime is not the only reason to apply Gun control.    Reducing the causlities from crime is a effect.   Taking automatic weapons off street makes killing large numbers harder.Jan 03 14:48
ushimitsudokiis gun control like the fall back topic here :)Jan 03 14:48
oiaohmRare odd topic.Jan 03 14:49
MinceRUsing homicide and suicide data from a larger sample of countries, 35, (International Journal of Epidemiology 1998:27:216), Kleck found "no significant (at the 5% level) association between gun ownership levels and the total homicide rate in the largest sample of nations available to study this topic. (Associations with the total suicide rate were even weaker.)"Jan 03 14:49
MinceR 03 14:49
MinceRapparently not even casualties are increased.Jan 03 14:49
MinceR155528 < oiaohm> Reducing crime is not the only reason to apply Gun control.    Reducing the causlities from crime is a effect.   Taking automaticJan 03 14:49
MinceR                 weapons off street makes killing large numbers harder.Jan 03 14:49
MinceRno it doesn'tJan 03 14:50
MinceRbiological weapons and homemade explosives are _much_ more effective at killing large numbersJan 03 14:50
MinceRif someone wants to kill a lot of people, he won't look for an automatic weapon.Jan 03 14:50
MinceRalso, i'd like to see how your two police officers are going to stop someone with an automatic weapon anywayJan 03 14:51
MinceRor a group of criminals with automatic weaponsJan 03 14:51
MinceR 03 14:52
oiaohmI really need to find the number here before and after gun control.Jan 03 14:53
oiaohmThe effect was quite complete.Jan 03 14:53
oiaohmPolice still have automatic weapons in pistels also more are trained with snipper riffles.Jan 03 14:54
oiaohmUsing an automatic weapon will bring attention.   Not a good thing really.Jan 03 14:54
oiaohmBefore gun control police snippers use to try to shot the gun out there hands.Jan 03 14:55
MinceRyou advocated "taking automatic weapons off street"Jan 03 14:55
oiaohmAustralian way.Jan 03 14:56
MinceRso before gun control guns were allowed but of someone was seen holding one, they got a shot to the hand?Jan 03 14:56
oiaohmIe automatic weapons out of publics hands.Jan 03 14:56
MinceRinteresting police force you've got there.Jan 03 14:56
MinceRs/of/if/Jan 03 14:56
oiaohmThey are good marksmen lots of them were pulling of jaming or destorying the weapon.Jan 03 14:57
oiaohmSo aiming for a human head is a lot larger target.Jan 03 14:57
oiaohmYes most of the time hand was not harmed.Jan 03 14:58
MinceR 03 14:59
oiaohmYes that is before police policy change.Jan 03 15:01
oiaohmPolice policy change to shot gunman on site had a big effect.   Also it took 3 years to clean the free guns out the system.Jan 03 15:01
trmanco 03 15:01
oiaohmNra is targeting the pulse after gun restrictions not the long term result.Jan 03 15:03
neighborlee 03 15:03
*neighborlee has quit ("Leaving")Jan 03 15:03
oiaohmNo guns in public hands on street made shot gunman on site possible to do without shoting a bystander.Jan 03 15:05
MinceR161020 < neighborlee> 03 15:06
MinceRhow does non-gun violence figure into this?Jan 03 15:06
MinceRhow does violence committed by the authorities figure into this?Jan 03 15:06
oiaohmAustralia did have an advantage over the USA.  All guns have to be importored into this country.Jan 03 15:08
oiaohmSo blocked imports it was only time before the street free guns run out.Jan 03 15:09
MinceRdo you really believe they can't prevent criminals from smuggling guns into australia? :>Jan 03 15:11
oiaohmYou know the other funny thing.   Same year Australian put in gun control we had a gang land war.Jan 03 15:12
oiaohmThat has started before gun control has be put in place.Jan 03 15:12
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schestowitzMinceR: true, it's eay to pass themJan 03 15:14
oiaohmIn the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300% << Yes that abonormal number whould have happened with or without gun control.Jan 03 15:14
schestowitzWhen I was 15 I passed an air rifle through an international flightJan 03 15:14
schestowitzFull-sized pellet gun.Jan 03 15:14
MinceRoiaohm: even if gun control has no effect on anything, it restricts freedom and thus the net effect is negative.Jan 03 15:15
MinceRit has to have a positive effect on crime and homicide in order to be worth usingJan 03 15:15
oiaohmThe positive effect has been the numbers of hurt bystanders.Jan 03 15:16
oiaohmAfter everything settled back down.Jan 03 15:16
oiaohmIts the range a gun provides that increases numbers of hurt bystanders.Jan 03 15:17
oiaohmMost of that was drug fueled crime that was causing high numbers of harmed bystanders.Jan 03 15:18
neighborleehttp:// < a very nice one and worth reading though I just went to end to see a quick summary and it was easily worth it even from that minimalistic perspective ;)Jan 03 15:19
oiaohmIts effect is not what the Rra are looking for.Jan 03 15:19
MinceRthe numbers of hurt bystanders figure into homicide rates, doesn't it?Jan 03 15:20
oiaohmLot of cases no.Jan 03 15:20
oiaohmBecause shooter normally does not kill them.Jan 03 15:21
neighborleeand shock of shocks...we already knew about this philosophy some 2000 years ago ( love thy neighbor as yourself , etc. ) , but Im afraid not enough listened,,maybe we will over the next few thousand years if we make it that far ;)Jan 03 15:21
MinceRoiaohm: so, do you have any stats on "hurt bystanders"?Jan 03 15:21
schestowitzneighborlee: this assumes  people are not repressedJan 03 15:21
neighborleethe mustard seed :)Jan 03 15:22
oiaohmNot in URL's.   MinceR   The difference has been quite major.  Of course in the 3 years settling down after gun rules come in.  It took the heads of the gangs here to basically kill themselfs out.Jan 03 15:24
oiaohmAfter that crimes have basically been direct targetly targeted.  Like shop assistant assulted but everyone else in store exscaping unharmed.Jan 03 15:25
oiaohmMost stupid recently was a guy doing a hold up with a rock.Jan 03 15:26
oiaohmYes 1 rock.Jan 03 15:26
neighborleelet thee that is without sin ? ;))) < maybe he felt particuarly   sin free that day> ;)Jan 03 15:26
oiaohmCould not work out why attentend said throw it.Jan 03 15:26
oiaohmProblem is stupid human + gun equals hurt people.  Normally not well trained so normally fire weapon by mistake in some direction.Jan 03 15:27
oiaohmIts the other thing we have seen more pure stupped attempted robberies.  Ie ones that by all logic don't ever stand a hope in hell of working.Jan 03 15:29
schestowitzHeh. We made front page of Linux Today.Jan 03 15:29
schestowitz 03 15:29
neighborleewell others make a good point here though..stupid human +whateva equals hurt people..though sure strap on bomb is ugly too :( change violence when you change people.Jan 03 15:29
oiaohmMaking a bomb needs some brains.Jan 03 15:29
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oiaohmNot to blow yourself up with it before you get anywhere.Jan 03 15:29
schestowitzHey, lehmann Jan 03 15:29
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schestowitzoiaohm scared himJan 03 15:30
schestowitz:-)Jan 03 15:30
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trmancohahahaJan 03 15:30
trmancoMicrosoft just lost its own game -> 03 15:30
neighborleelolJan 03 15:31
trmancoWill there be corruption in the US patent system?Jan 03 15:31
schestowitztrmanco: thanks, someone E-mailed me this last nightJan 03 15:31
schestowitzDifferent source though (Electonista or whatever it's called)Jan 03 15:32
trmanco:)Jan 03 15:32
schestowitzI'm waiting until I have more MS patents news (I have 3)Jan 03 15:32
trmancomore here ->,100000...Jan 03 15:32
trmancocoolJan 03 15:32
schestowitzzoobab should take noteJan 03 15:32
schestowitzThis is funny: 03 15:33
schestowitzWatch the second figureJan 03 15:33
schestowitzDavid Meyer changes his mugJan 03 15:33
trmancoridiculous !Jan 03 15:33
oiaohmI am fairly sure Sun has the pay as you go patent from the time they though the first cloud like idea would take off.Jan 03 15:34
oiaohmIf its still current MS could have some fun.Jan 03 15:35
trmancoMicrosoft's netbook restrictions detailed: 03 15:36
schestowitzAmazon tooJan 03 15:36
schestowitzThey can find artistic way to sneak it on past the doormen of USPTOJan 03 15:36
schestowitztrmanco: is this new?Jan 03 15:37
schestowitzI know they revised the old 'crippling' mandateJan 03 15:37
schestowitzBut that was months agoJan 03 15:37
MinceR163124 < oiaohm> Not in URL's.   MinceR   The difference has been quite major.  Of course in the 3 years settling down after gun rules come in.  ItJan 03 15:38
MinceR                 took the heads of the gangs here to basically kill themselfs out.Jan 03 15:38
MinceRthat sounds like a very specific caseJan 03 15:38
schestowitz"With XP gone for good, vendors will have no choice but to migrate to Vista, adding extra hardware and storage to cope with the overbloated OS, thus driving prices up once again and widening the price gap between Windows and Linux based netbooks. "Jan 03 15:38
MinceRso it hardly goes for gun control in generalJan 03 15:38
MinceR163459 < oiaohm> Problem is stupid human + gun equals hurt people.  Normally not well trained so normally fire weapon by mistake in some direction.Jan 03 15:38
schestowitzLike I said, they caused the cost of sub-notebooks to go through the roofJan 03 15:38
trmancoschestowitz, yes it isJan 03 15:38
MinceRauthorities are staffed by humans. criminals are humans.Jan 03 15:38
schestowitzThey also pressure OEMs not to do low end (Linux)Jan 03 15:38
trmancofrom yesterday I thinkJan 03 15:38
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MinceRcriminals who want a career in firearm use can get training.Jan 03 15:39
schestowitzMicrosoft adds to Atom’s restrictions < >Jan 03 15:39
MinceRnormal citizens when there's no gun prohibition can get training.Jan 03 15:39
schestowitzWhat a nice company. It innovates "restrictions"Jan 03 15:39
MinceRyou can even enforce it just like driving licenses.Jan 03 15:39
MinceRoiaohm: also consider the case of the police policy where you just shoot people with guns in their hand in the head.Jan 03 15:40
MinceRis that morally justifiable?Jan 03 15:40
MinceRwhat if, in order to eliminate violence, we legislate that people are to be shot in the head upon birth? it would surely work statistically :>Jan 03 15:40
oiaohmYes person then cannot kill or harm anyone else.   It also completely discourages using guns in crimes.Jan 03 15:41
oiaohmNothing else has seemed to work as effectively.Jan 03 15:41
oiaohmIt also reduced numbers of police harmed do to guns.Jan 03 15:42
oiaohmOk increased the usage of knives and baseball bats and the like.Jan 03 15:42
MinceRso it didn't do anythingJan 03 15:42
MinceRexcept restricted the freedom of people.Jan 03 15:42
oiaohmThat is what you are missing.Jan 03 15:43
MinceRhm?Jan 03 15:43
oiaohmCrimes fighting police not happening.Jan 03 15:43
neighborleeoiaohm: so what was the net effectJan 03 15:43
neighborleeor was a study doneJan 03 15:43
oiaohmSeams crim + firearm equals attempt to fight way out.Jan 03 15:44
MinceRplease use more grammar, i don't understand half of what you're saying.Jan 03 15:44
oiaohmCrim without firearm more often than not common sence.Jan 03 15:44
oiaohmDon't fight lay down arm.  If took gun would have risked being dead any how.Jan 03 15:44
MinceRno offence, but you're starting to sound timecubish.Jan 03 15:44
oiaohmarms.Jan 03 15:44
schestowitzMinceR: doesn't matterJan 03 15:45
schestowitzI have my typos tooJan 03 15:45
schestowitzYou get the messageJan 03 15:45
MinceRwell, typos are one thing, leaving out half the words is anotherJan 03 15:45
oiaohmgrammer and me don't get along too good.Jan 03 15:45
MinceRi don't get the messageJan 03 15:45
MinceReven the parts i get i'm unsure ofJan 03 15:45
oiaohmDo grammer I get dyslexia effecting worlds.Jan 03 15:45
oiaohmwordsJan 03 15:45
schestowitzMinceR: messages are conveyed by assembly of wordsJan 03 15:45
schestowitzGrammer is all the same.Jan 03 15:45
oiaohmIt is bad enough without it.Jan 03 15:45
schestowitznouns with adjectives connected by verbs.Jan 03 15:45
oiaohmLess fighting police more common sence in cases where caught less harm to criminals and anyone near by.Jan 03 15:46
schestowitzI love talking to people with errors because it means they don't try *too* hard to be formalJan 03 15:46
oiaohmOver all crime rate not change but outcomes from the crimes changed.Jan 03 15:47
schestowitzI had friends who took 15 minutes to write a bloody E-maikls.Jan 03 15:47
schestowitzIn fact, lacking sloppiness and insisting on highh standards means far less output and a lot less guiltJan 03 15:47
schestowitzI gave up on lots of proofreading in 2004Jan 03 15:47
oiaohmI wish I could fix my grammer.  Everytime I have attempted I end up producing completely unreadable even by me 24 hours latter.Jan 03 15:49
oiaohmCatch you guys around.Jan 03 15:51
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schestowitzGoogle's CEO should stay out of Obama's arena: 03 16:00
schestowitzSomeone has volunteered to extract the text from the OLPC PDF. It's reverse bribery. Putting funds in lots of places and threatening to withdraw these if the places stop paying Microsoft. What a kickbacks loophole.Jan 03 16:13
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schestowitz 03 16:39
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schestowitzbblJan 03 17:39
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PetoKrausoh FFSJan 03 19:16
PetoKrausi've almost installed mono!!!Jan 03 19:16
MinceRlolJan 03 19:16
PetoKraushmm, gnome-subtitles needs monoJan 03 19:35
PetoKraus$H&ITEJan 03 19:35
trmancololJan 03 19:42
trmancomono is a virusJan 03 19:42
trmanco 03 19:43
PetoKraus it's annoyingJan 03 19:45
PetoKrausi just wanna sync my subs!Jan 03 19:45
schestowitzKate does subtitles. I saw it yesterday.Jan 03 19:55
PetoKrausyeah well.. i used something elseJan 03 19:56
schestowitzI've been thinking. If the chaps like  the ones in the video are affected by the Progression of the Depression, then they could be recruited and unnecessarily assigned to carry out some military coo overthrowing governments that are 'disobedient'.Jan 03 19:56
schestowitzI tried getting OCR software earlier. But it doesn't do PDFs :-(Jan 03 19:56
PetoKrauslol the zune thing is pricelessJan 03 20:01
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TallkenhelloJan 03 20:29
schestowitzHey.Jan 03 20:32
schestowitzJust posted: "The disinformation thing is rampant at all levels, that is why I don't watch TV, read newspapers or magazines.  Or pay attention to any information that is likely to be manufactured or censored."Jan 03 20:33
schestowitzGodwin law invoked beforehand, I think. " These cast MS as the uncool lumbering out of touch giant.  Which in in the view of of a lot of folks they are.  The next step would be to compare them to fascism that uses Hitler's propaganda methodology, which they do."Jan 03 20:33
TallkenI stoppped watching TV because the news are so fucking boring!Jan 03 20:34
schestowitzPanda bears and 'honest' politicians.Jan 03 20:35
Tallkenif everyone paid for each word said on TV -- politicians included -- the world would be much more funJan 03 20:35
Tallkenpeople who speak too much are doing a disservice to everyoneJan 03 20:35
Tallkenunless it's obviously a documentary or sth where such behaviour is rather desirableJan 03 20:36
schestowitzI'm watching with concern what they do in video clipsJan 03 20:36
schestowitzThere are some musicians that make interesting clipsJan 03 20:36
schestowitzBut about 90% are about booty, sex, cars, and, dollaz and b*ches. It's all just mugs, cleavage, posing and parties.Jan 03 20:37
schestowitzI enjoy the music on TV, but the videos are just so damn boring and stupifying.Jan 03 20:38
Tallkenschestowitz, < Fat Boy Slim - Sunset (Bird Of Prey) >Jan 03 20:39
schestowitzOMG. When I wrote that thing about video I was thinking about Fat Boy SlimJan 03 20:42
schestowitzI actually use him as an example routinely (one who makes good videos and whose face you hardly ever see)Jan 03 20:43
Tallken;)Jan 03 20:44
*Tallken will have dinnerJan 03 20:44
Tallkenand that video has a meaningJan 03 20:44
TallkenI believe it is mentioned in WikipediaJan 03 20:44
Tallkenanyway, awayJan 03 20:44
schestowitzI like this Bootsy Collins one... (Weapon Of Choice - Fatboy Slim)Jan 03 20:45
twitterYou do pay for every word spoken on TV.  Advertising raises the price of everything.Jan 03 20:57
twitterRoy, export your PDF to the image format your OCR does.Jan 03 20:58
schestowitzI thought about it (screenshots)Jan 03 21:02
schestowitzBut the software that was on the Mandriva repos seems to be command-line driven, so couldn't be arsed.Jan 03 21:03
schestowitzAnyone, someone extracted the text from all pages by hand.Jan 03 21:03
schestowitz 03 21:03
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twitterwowJan 03 21:11
twitter"If the chaps like  the ones in the video are affected by the Progression of the Depression, then they could be recruited and unnecessarily assigned to carry out some military coo overthrowing governments that are 'disobedient'."  Oh yeah.Jan 03 21:13
twitterThe more powerful the autocrats become, the more likely you are to end up in some kind of miserable "war economy"Jan 03 21:14
schestowitzPeople snitch on them.Jan 03 21:14
twitterRationed and working for the war machine, jailed or on the front lines.Jan 03 21:15
schestowitzIt was easier to keep them quiet when there was no InternetJan 03 21:15
twitterThat's why the US has declared war on the entire world.  That's what the "War on Terror" is according to my relatives.  They think it is AOK for US agents to murder, jail and torture people without trial.Jan 03 21:17
twitterThey are out of control, and thankfully are a minority opinion.Jan 03 21:17
schestowitzPutin said soJan 03 21:19
schestowitz"totally out of control"Jan 03 21:20
twitterThat guy controls his press by murder too.Jan 03 21:20
schestowitzWe are very gullible creature. Television can install straws in our skulls.Jan 03 21:21
schestowitzInstill disinfoJan 03 21:21
twitterThat's why I avoid TV.Jan 03 21:21
twitterI see what has done to people I know.Jan 03 21:22
schestowitzRather sued Bush?Jan 03 21:22
twitterYes.Jan 03 21:22
schestowitzThey try to sack himJan 03 21:22
twitterThey sacked him, that's why he sued.Jan 03 21:22
schestowitzGood luck suing the cronies.. GoodfellasJan 03 21:27
schestowitzWhat's with "torture"? They call it something else now... can't recall whatJan 03 21:27
schestowitz"processing"...?Jan 03 21:27
twitterDiscomfort positions.  Extraordinary Rendition.  There are lots of names for it.Jan 03 21:27
schestowitzWhat's that word they use now to embellish (other than waterboarding and all)?Jan 03 21:28
schestowitzOh yeah.. rendition. *LOL*Jan 03 21:28
twitterIf you allow people to abuse prisoners, prisoners will die.Jan 03 21:28
schestowitzIt's not funny, but what's funny is how they hide their deedsJan 03 21:28
schestowitzMaybe that's sound torture :-) Bad renditions of songs.Jan 03 21:28
twitterThe US and allies executed people for similar deeds.Jan 03 21:29
schestowitzYes, which is why they are hypocritesJan 03 21:29
schestowitzJudging by rules and precedence, some would tell you that the indictment against Bush and Cheney are sere enough to... you know..Jan 03 21:29
schestowitz*severeJan 03 21:30
schestowitzJohn C. Dvorak idiocy... ... since WHEN is Linux just some desktop platform? The press should be reprimanded for misleading people, telling them that computer=desktopJan 03 21:31
Tallkencya laterzJan 03 21:49
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trmancosee comments: 03 21:53
schestowitzTough crowd :-o!Jan 03 21:57
trmancotoo badJan 03 22:02
twitterupdated Vista 7 failure log to note the 2007 start of hype 03 22:22
twitterupdated the Vista 7 Hype Log to include more authors and promises. 03 22:22
schestowitzSee latest blog postJan 03 22:23
schestowitzMore on Vista 7, AKA Windows 6.1Jan 03 22:23
twitterYes, that's what got me started.  :)Jan 03 22:24
twitternow back to it.Jan 03 22:24
schestowitzYou're mocking Vista7 a year before it comes out of the womb.Jan 03 22:33
schestowitzMaking it DoA  perhapsJan 03 22:33
MinceRit's going to DoA anywayJan 03 22:36
MinceRs/to/to be/Jan 03 22:36
schestowitzNot necesarilyJan 03 22:36
schestowitzThey spend a lot of money of propagadvertising.Jan 03 22:37
schestowitz*onJan 03 22:37
MinceRthey did the same with vista, didn't they?Jan 03 22:37
MinceRfat lot of good it did them.Jan 03 22:37
schestowitzYes, and it workedJan 03 22:37
schestowitzPeople were fooled when it was new.Jan 03 22:37
schestowitzVista was not mocked until MUCH laterJan 03 22:37
schestowitzI fought it with words for YEARSJan 03 22:37
schestowitz(in COLA mostly)Jan 03 22:38
MinceRthe only way they're fooling some people into thinking that it even sells at all is by selling xp licenses in a way that allows them to count those as vista purchasesJan 03 22:38
schestowitzThat too.Jan 03 22:38
schestowitzPeople found outJan 03 22:38
schestowitzThey count that as double saled, IIRCJan 03 22:38
schestowitz*salesJan 03 22:38
schestowitzit's about perception... sheep culture.Jan 03 22:38
schestowitz"200 million 'people' already use Vista, so why don/t /you/?"Jan 03 22:39
AxzBecause i don't like searching for right driversJan 03 22:39
Axz:pJan 03 22:39
twitterVista7 is Vista.  The Windows 7 fail logs are a continuation of the Vista Failure Log. 03 22:39
twitterI don't think they have 200 million users yet.Jan 03 22:40
twitterA large proportion of Vista users don't last more than six months before replacing it.Jan 03 22:41
twitterOver Christmas, I got to see Vista fail on a Dell.  It was sad.  Weeks of M$ "support" by email followed by removal of SP1 and a brick.Jan 03 22:42
twitterNot a merry Christmas for the victim.Jan 03 22:42
twitterOn boot it tries to clean itself up, errors and freezes with a single line of white text on a black screen.  !! hex number !! followed by worthless blinking text.Jan 03 22:43
twitterIt will be interesting to see what happens next.Jan 03 22:44
twitterbblJan 03 22:44
MinceRhas someone blogged about that?Jan 03 22:45
schestowitzNot that I've seen anything recently.Jan 03 22:53
schestowitzStarting a war of aggression is "the supreme international crime" that "contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole." Bush must be brought to the Hague and prosecuted. < >Jan 03 23:02
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Axzhi NeonFloss :)Jan 03 23:19
NeonFlosssorry schestowitzJan 03 23:19
NeonFlossabout that the other dayJan 03 23:19
NeonFloss:PJan 03 23:20
schestowitzHey, that's coo.Jan 03 23:20
schestowitzcool.Jan 03 23:20
NeonFlossnopeJan 03 23:20
Axz<schestowitz> "200 million 'people' already use Vista, so why don/t /you/?" < where you got that info from buddy?Jan 03 23:20
NeonFlossI made an ass of myseld on a publicly logged channelJan 03 23:20
Axzbecause its funnyJan 03 23:20
schestowitzAxz: it's what Microsoft saysJan 03 23:21
schestowitzIt's a lieJan 03 23:21
Axzi know thatÅ› whats making it funny :pJan 03 23:21
schestowitzThey can count a new PC as two Vista sales if it runs XP or LinuxJan 03 23:21
schestowitzThere's a misconception. Some people think that if Windows "is for stupid people", then it must be easy, as opposed to it just appealing to those who are blinded to better options (and are therefore "stupid")Jan 03 23:21
AxzYeah, in Ntherlands there are 40% PC stores selling Ubuntu as build-on systemJan 03 23:22
AxzNetherlands*Jan 03 23:22
NeonFlossreally?Jan 03 23:22
AxzYeah i think even PC retailers are tires of Vista being one big issue day after day and complains are getting more higherJan 03 23:23
schestowitzWell, Holland is ahead. The govt moves to FOSS even..Jan 03 23:25
schestowitzThe US and UK as WELL behind, so you don't find much pro-Linux news in the English-speaking pressJan 03 23:25
schestowitzSouth Africa does not have strong presence in the press, but it's pro-FOSS and against software colonialism that the British and American govts fight /for/Jan 03 23:26
NeonFlosswell give govermant and school institutions switch to FOSS then the main population will tooJan 03 23:27
NeonFlossbecause kids learn to use FOSSJan 03 23:27
NeonFlossand then they stick with itJan 03 23:27
NeonFlosswe need people to lobby schools to switchJan 03 23:28
schestowitzYes, Windows and Office become 'too different;Jan 03 23:28
NeonFlosshehJan 03 23:29
schestowitzBut governments are corrupted by Microsoft and the Gates FoundationJan 03 23:29
schestowitzThey pass them moneyJan 03 23:29
NeonFlosssureJan 03 23:29
schestowitzSo that they stick with Microsoft for kidsJan 03 23:29
schestowitzIt's only recently that I found proof that Gates passed billions to /governments'Jan 03 23:29
schestowitzNow they have Jeff Raikes in there too. It's like a Microsoft bank account with "charity" sign on its doorJan 03 23:29
NeonFlossim still waiting for a completely compatible eqivelen of M$ office for linuxJan 03 23:29
AxzNeonFloss, OpenOffice.Org 3.0Jan 03 23:30
schestowitzMicrosoft works hard to ensure you don't have that./Jan 03 23:30
NeonFlossyesJan 03 23:30
schestowitzCompt, I meanJan 03 23:30
NeonFlossAxz: is closeJan 03 23:30
schestowitzOOXML, moving formats, patents, etcJan 03 23:30
NeonFlossbut not perfectJan 03 23:30
schestowitzLock-in is its business model, not features or qualityJan 03 23:30
NeonFlossopenoffice gives my different formatting sometimesJan 03 23:31
AxzWith few tweaks that could be fixed , but will speak to you with it in other channel...Jan 03 23:32
NeonFlossis wine better now that its out of beta?Jan 03 23:32
Axzanyhow Whats yours idea on OpenSuse using Novell as well schestowitz ?Jan 03 23:32
NeonFlossAxz: I manage well with openoffice but Im talking about the average userJan 03 23:33
AxzNeonFloss, No beta is also good but wine beta is also made for futher developmentJan 03 23:33
Axzfurther*Jan 03 23:33
NeonFlossohJan 03 23:33
schestowitzWine and beta?Jan 03 23:34
NeonFlossI need a new nick for this serverJan 03 23:34
NeonFlossany ideas?Jan 03 23:34
Axzi ;m using beta myself because i'm Mantianer for wine working on M$ libsJan 03 23:34
schestowitzOpenSUSE is less of an issue, but better leave Novell stuff untouched.Jan 03 23:34
Axzyeah^ but you think would novell bring better future into open source applications?Jan 03 23:35
schestowitzNo, for Novell.Jan 03 23:35
schestowitzNovell works for SUSE and Novell.Jan 03 23:35
AxzWas just wondering because once i remember old times SUSE worked on 8 cd boxes, and what they established nowJan 03 23:36
*NeonFloss is now known as Neon|lostJan 03 23:37
AxzBecause on my previous blog there is also part about Microsoft challenging Redhat with Windows server 2008Jan 03 23:38
schestowitzAxz: I had a 5 CD setJan 03 23:38
schestowitz8.Jan 03 23:38
Axzyeah me too, it was time of bashing and anarchy :PJan 03 23:38
schestowitz“Do you pine for the nice days of Minix-1.1, when men were men and wrote their own device drivers?” Linus TorvaldsJan 03 23:43
schestowitzIs xfce getting chubby? 03 23:47
schestowitzFeedback on XO Laptops in Brazilian Schools < >Jan 03 23:49
schestowitzYuck... Intel to Linux is like cancer to a health clinic... 03 23:52

Recent Techrights' Posts

It's Cheaper to Pay Bribes (and Produce Press Releases) Than to Pay Fines (After Lots of Negative Publicity)
Does the UK still have real sovereignty or do corporations from overseas purchase decisions and outcomes?
November 2023 Over With GNU/Linux at All-Time Highs According to statCounter
ChromeOS+GNU/Linux combined are about 7% of the "market"
[Meme] Screenshots of Web Pages (Relevant to One's Article) Are Not Copyright Infringing Anywhere in the World
bullying and hate crimes
Cybercrimes and Online Abuse From Extremists and Militants on a VPN/Tor
A straitjacket or lobotomy won't solve this issue
IRC Proceedings: Friday, December 01, 2023
IRC logs for Friday, December 01, 2023
Selling Free Software
by Richard Stallman
A Year of Doing Techrights 'Full Time'
been a year!
Microsoft and Its Boosters Worsen Linux Security
The circus goes on and on
Links 01/12/2023: Facebook Infested With Malicious Campaigns by Imposters, ACLU Gives Advice on Doxxing and Online Harassment
Links for the day
Just Like Its Budget Allocation, the Linux Foundation Devotes About 3% Of Its Latest Newsletter to Linux, Devotes More to Linux's Rivals
It's just exploiting the brand
Links 01/12/2023: Google Invokes Antitrust Against Microsoft
Links for the day
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news
UK Government Allowing Microsoft to Take Over Activision Blizzard Will Destroy Jobs
Over 30,000 fired this year? More?
New Report Provides Numerical Evidence That Google Hired Too Many People From Microsoft (and Became Malicious, Evil, Sociopathic)
"Some 12,018 former Microsoft employees currently work for the search and data giant"
Google: Keep Out, Don't Save Your Files, and Also Let Us Spy on Everything You Do
Do you still trust "clown" storage?
IRC Proceedings: Thursday, November 30, 2023
IRC logs for Thursday, November 30, 2023
Links 01/12/2023: Many Suppressions in Hong Kong and Attempts to Legitimise Illegal and Unconstitutional Fake Patent 'Court' in EU (UPC)
Links for the day
Gemini Not Deflated Yet (Soon Turning 5!)
Gemini numbers still moving up, the protocol will turn five next summer
Links 30/11/2023: Belated End of Henry Kissinger and 'Popular Science' Shuts Online Magazine
Links for the day
Site Priorities and Upcoming Improvements
pages are served very fast
[Meme] One Person, Singular Pronoun
Abusing people into abusing the English language is very poor diplomacy
Ending Software Patents in Recent Years (Software Freedom Fighters MIA)
not a resolved issue
New Article From Richard Stallman Explains Why He Says He and She for Unknown Person (Not 'They')
"Nowadays I use gender-neutral singular pronouns for a person whose gender I don't know"
IRC Proceedings: Wednesday, November 29, 2023
IRC logs for Wednesday, November 29, 2023
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news
Links 30/11/2023: Rushing Patent Cases With Shorter Trial Scheme (STS), Sanctions Not Working
Links for the day
Links 30/11/2023: Google Purging Many Accounts and Content (to Save Money), Finland Fully Seals Border With Russia
Links for the day