To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.
| oiaohm | Hurd and Minux are both about design indestructable OS's/ | Mar 27 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Balrog_ | I see.... | Mar 27 00:01 |
| Balrog_ | Minix * | Mar 27 00:01 |
| _Hicham_ | no one is interested in hurd | Mar 27 00:02 |
| _Hicham_ | torvalds still laughs at hurd people | Mar 27 00:02 |
| _Hicham_ | microkernel is just a fantasm | Mar 27 00:02 |
| oiaohm | There are places for hurd and minix designs just not many. | Mar 27 00:02 |
| _Hicham_ | like debian project | Mar 27 00:03 |
| oiaohm | minix in one test operated with most of it drivers crashing. | Mar 27 00:03 |
| schestowitz | ><_Hicham_> microkernel is just a fantasm | Mar 27 00:03 |
| Balrog_ | Somehow Apple does well with a partially-microkernel-based design ... true, it's not a true microkernel, but it somehow works | Mar 27 00:03 |
| schestowitz | Linus' inspirers does not agree | Mar 27 00:03 |
| schestowitz | *inspirer | Mar 27 00:03 |
| oiaohm | This is important for items you send to where you cannot repair them _Hicham_ | Mar 27 00:03 |
| oiaohm | You want them to limp not die. | Mar 27 00:03 |
| oiaohm | Hopefully limp enough that you can remote access repair them. | Mar 27 00:04 |
| _Hicham_ | there is no true microkernel until till today | Mar 27 00:04 |
| _Hicham_ | at best, there are hybrid ones | Mar 27 00:04 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: see the "Linux is obsolete" thread. Linux is also written mostly in C | Mar 27 00:05 |
| _Hicham_ | it is tannenbaum | Mar 27 00:05 |
| schestowitz | yes | Mar 27 00:06 |
| _Hicham_ | I know that | Mar 27 00:06 |
| _Hicham_ | it is a famous saying | Mar 27 00:06 |
| _Hicham_ | everybody knows it | Mar 27 00:06 |
| _Hicham_ | he is the one to inspire Torvalds | Mar 27 00:06 |
| _Hicham_ | there is some funny stories about that | Mar 27 00:06 |
| _Hicham_ | Tannenbaum told Torvalds : if u were my student, I would have given u an F | Mar 27 00:07 |
| Balrog_ | what do you guys think of the Dirac video codec? I hear it may have better quality than Theora | Mar 27 00:07 |
| Balrog_ | and is foss / patent free | Mar 27 00:07 |
| _Hicham_ | it is from the BBC? | Mar 27 00:07 |
| Balrog_ | yeah, I think so... | Mar 27 00:07 |
| Balrog_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dira... | Mar 27 00:08 |
| _Hicham_ | is there any streaming content using it? | Mar 27 00:08 |
| Balrog_ | That I do not know. | Mar 27 00:08 |
| _Hicham_ | even Ogg is still struggling to get its place | Mar 27 00:09 |
| _Hicham_ | though it has better quality than existing format | Mar 27 00:10 |
| _Hicham_ | formats | Mar 27 00:10 |
| oiaohm | Ogg will get more with intregraton into webbrowsers | Mar 27 00:10 |
| oiaohm | Bit like how flash video format got high up list. | Mar 27 00:10 |
| _Hicham_ | I hope so | Mar 27 00:10 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't like how adobe is doing thing | Mar 27 00:10 |
| _Hicham_ | the only thing that they did right is PDF Spec | Mar 27 00:10 |
| Balrog_ | Is Ogg better quality than h.264? The quality / size ratios I get with the x.264 encoder are very high | Mar 27 00:11 |
| Balrog_ | true, the patents aren't good :/ | Mar 27 00:11 |
| _Hicham_ | but x264 is free? | Mar 27 00:11 |
| Balrog_ | x264 is foss, but there are patents | Mar 27 00:11 |
| Balrog_ | it's like LAME | Mar 27 00:11 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not good then | Mar 27 00:11 |
| Balrog_ | yeah I know :/ | Mar 27 00:11 |
| _Hicham_ | free as in freedom | Mar 27 00:12 |
| _Hicham_ | no patents | Mar 27 00:12 |
| Balrog_ | we need a patent-free codec with comparable quality | Mar 27 00:12 |
| _Hicham_ | no obstacles to the science | Mar 27 00:12 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't like it when Corporations block the way to science | Mar 27 00:12 |
| schestowitz | Ogg is good | Mar 27 00:13 |
| schestowitz | osnews fudded it | Mar 27 00:13 |
| schestowitz | pj refuted me | Mar 27 00:13 |
| schestowitz | others did too | Mar 27 00:13 |
| schestowitz | bn has hundereds og ogg on it | Mar 27 00:13 |
| schestowitz | *of | Mar 27 00:13 |
| Balrog_ | yeah, I see... | Mar 27 00:13 |
| *schestowitz eats, so no shift button | Mar 27 00:13 | |
| Balrog_ | Dirac is still somewhat new and experimental | Mar 27 00:14 |
| Balrog_ | but it's quality (AFAIK) is much higher | Mar 27 00:14 |
| _Hicham_ | it is supported by GStreamer | Mar 27 00:14 |
| Balrog_ | true, but the decoding speed / processing power required is still too high | Mar 27 00:15 |
| Balrog_ | (for most practical use) | Mar 27 00:15 |
| schestowitz | maybe Mozilla will add dirac too | Mar 27 00:15 |
| schestowitz | Won't cost anything, will it? | Mar 27 00:15 |
| schestowitz | Not even performance for Firefox... no need to loan this on startup | Mar 27 00:16 |
| Balrog_ | it's foss and patent-free | Mar 27 00:16 |
| Balrog_ | yeah that's true, load only when needed | Mar 27 00:16 |
| Balrog_ | but first we need to get people to work on it to improve it | Mar 27 00:16 |
| schestowitz | People must demand that the Treasury works transparently. Stimulus Bill Includes First (and Maybe Only) Federal Data Breach Notification Law < http://www.itbusinessedge.com/cm/... > | Mar 27 00:17 |
| Balrog_ | what about chip decoders / encoders for ogg? are those around yet? | Mar 27 00:17 |
| _Hicham_ | I hate flash anyway | Mar 27 00:17 |
| Balrog_ | Like they are common for h.264 | Mar 27 00:18 |
| _Hicham_ | I think so | Mar 27 00:18 |
| Balrog_ | but not (yet?) for ogg? | Mar 27 00:18 |
| schestowitz | Flash will get worse | Mar 27 00:18 |
| schestowitz | Wires thicken | Mar 27 00:18 |
| schestowitz | More people move to Web videos | Mar 27 00:18 |
| _Hicham_ | there are some chip decoders for ogg | Mar 27 00:18 |
| schestowitz | Newspapers too (online) | Mar 27 00:18 |
| Balrog_ | good ones? | Mar 27 00:18 |
| schestowitz | Microsott and Novell promote Silver/Moon Lie for a reason | Mar 27 00:18 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog_ : I think so | Mar 27 00:18 |
| schestowitz | Duopoly | Mar 27 00:18 |
| _Hicham_ | better promote Firefox | Mar 27 00:19 |
| _Hicham_ | aka IceWeasel | Mar 27 00:19 |
| _Hicham_ | a lot of sites are blocking IceWeasel | Mar 27 00:19 |
| _Hicham_ | they are just plain dumb | Mar 27 00:19 |
| Balrog_ | _Hicham_: really? | Mar 27 00:19 |
| _Hicham_ | yes | Mar 27 00:19 |
| Balrog_ | or are they just looking for Firefox specificly? | Mar 27 00:20 |
| Balrog_ | specifically * | Mar 27 00:20 |
| _Hicham_ | looking for Firefox | Mar 27 00:20 |
| Balrog_ | and not caring about 'weird' user-agents | Mar 27 00:20 |
| _Hicham_ | in user agent | Mar 27 00:20 |
| schestowitz | Common | Mar 27 00:20 |
| schestowitz | yahopo too | Mar 27 00:20 |
| _Hicham_ | that is what MS have done to us | Mar 27 00:20 |
| _Hicham_ | rely on user agent | Mar 27 00:20 |
| _Hicham_ | fucking MS | Mar 27 00:20 |
| schestowitz | hader sniffers should be suspended | Mar 27 00:20 |
| Balrog_ | that's why user agent discrimination is very dangerous | Mar 27 00:20 |
| Balrog_ | :( | Mar 27 00:20 |
| schestowitz | Sent to detention :-) | Mar 27 00:20 |
| _Hicham_ | I hate u MS | Mar 27 00:21 |
| _Hicham_ | they divided the web | Mar 27 00:21 |
| schestowitz | They also have MSIE-only tags | Mar 27 00:21 |
| schestowitz | I use them | Mar 27 00:21 |
| schestowitz | I BN | Mar 27 00:21 |
| schestowitz | Every page | Mar 27 00:21 |
| Balrog_ | why? | Mar 27 00:21 |
| schestowitz | To display a message saying the user should dump IE | Mar 27 00:21 |
| schestowitz | And uupgrade to Linux | Mar 27 00:21 |
| schestowitz | Access BN articles with IE | Mar 27 00:21 |
| schestowitz | You'll see | Mar 27 00:21 |
| schestowitz | About 11% of our visitors use IE | Mar 27 00:21 |
| _Hicham_ | I didn't use IE to access BN | Mar 27 00:22 |
| Balrog_ | it's not relying on user agent? that I can switch easily | Mar 27 00:22 |
| Balrog_ | starting a windows instance and trying it in IE would be harder | Mar 27 00:22 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: watch page source in a BN post | Mar 27 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Look for the IE part | Mar 27 00:22 |
| _Hicham_ | is it relying on javascript? | Mar 27 00:22 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: no | Mar 27 00:22 |
| schestowitz | I was going to | Mar 27 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Someone from Fidland said there's a cleaner way | Mar 27 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Why? | Mar 27 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Because MS created its own tags | Mar 27 00:23 |
| schestowitz | For IE-only | Mar 27 00:23 |
| schestowitz | Nice, ain't it? | Mar 27 00:23 |
| _Hicham_ | that is great | Mar 27 00:23 |
| _Hicham_ | i agree | Mar 27 00:23 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft makes its own tags | Mar 27 00:23 |
| schestowitz | The "for us" <tag> | Mar 27 00:23 |
| Balrog_ | wasn't MS the first to put tags for AJAX? so I heard... | Mar 27 00:23 |
| _Hicham_ | MS was very interested in AJAX | Mar 27 00:24 |
| _Hicham_ | like it was with CSS | Mar 27 00:24 |
| Balrog_ | ahh | Mar 27 00:25 |
| Balrog_ | you're using ' <!--[if IE]>' tags | Mar 27 00:25 |
| Balrog_ | isn't that standards? | Mar 27 00:25 |
| Balrog_ | I see... | Mar 27 00:25 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't think so | Mar 27 00:26 |
| _Hicham_ | those are just for the png fixes | Mar 27 00:26 |
| Balrog_ | <!--[if IE]> | Mar 27 00:27 |
| Balrog_ | <p style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://browsehappy.com/" title="We recommends a better Wb browser"><img src="/wp-admin/images/browse-happy.gif" alt="Browse Happy" /></a> <a href="http://boycottnovell.com/mov...">Upgrade to GNU/Linux</a></p> | Mar 27 00:27 |
| Balrog_ | <![endif]--> | Mar 27 00:27 |
| schestowitz | http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/N... (Study: Handset sales fall, but will flatten in 2010); so the theory about PCs replaced by phones in poor economy is wobbly | Mar 27 00:27 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: oops. Typo there. | Mar 27 00:27 |
| schestowitz | "Wb browser" | Mar 27 00:27 |
| _Hicham_ | We recommend a better web browser | Mar 27 00:28 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Mar 27 00:28 |
| schestowitz | Let me fix it | Mar 27 00:28 |
| balzac | "The concept of a desktop is kind of ridiculous in this day and age," said Whitehurst. "I'd rather think about skating to where the puck is gong to be than where it is now," he said, using a hockey analogy. - Whitehurst | Mar 27 00:28 |
| _Hicham_ | http://boycottnovell.com//wp-ad... | Mar 27 00:28 |
| schestowitz | Done. But pages are cached | Mar 27 00:29 |
| _Hicham_ | u should display a more scary message | Mar 27 00:29 |
| schestowitz | That would annoy people | Mar 27 00:29 |
| balzac | This is more of the "Cloud/Web 2.0" hype that RMS is so tired of hearing about. It's as old as Sun Microsystems with their thin-client hype from Scott McNealy. It's a thinly veiled grab for control over users. It's crap. | Mar 27 00:29 |
| schestowitz | Especially those who are not in the choir whom we address | Mar 27 00:30 |
| schestowitz | balzac: yes, exactly | Mar 27 00:30 |
| balzac | Whitehurst needs to stop talking-down the GNU/Linux desktop, just for his control scheme. | Mar 27 00:30 |
| _Hicham_ | like drawing a red edge around the posts | Mar 27 00:30 |
| schestowitz | Data AND software on vendor's PCs | Mar 27 00:30 |
| schestowitz | Like Google... they have your files AND can CHANGE your software at any time | Mar 27 00:30 |
| balzac | He needs to be told SYFPH. | Mar 27 00:31 |
| schestowitz | Like UPDATE you can't control | Mar 27 00:31 |
| schestowitz | Facebook users were furious over UI changes | Mar 27 00:31 |
| schestowitz | Nothing they can do | Mar 27 00:31 |
| schestowitz | Short of greasemonkey or something | Mar 27 00:31 |
| balzac | yeah, these people don't give a flying rat's ass about computer user's freedom and they're no better than Steve Ballmer. | Mar 27 00:31 |
| Balrog_ | facebook did make some changes lately | Mar 27 00:31 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't use the UI of Facebook | Mar 27 00:31 |
| balzac | Whitehurst is an "open source" poseur and he needs to read Stallman's Free Software, Free Society | Mar 27 00:32 |
| Balrog_ | they're listening to public input for TOS | Mar 27 00:32 |
| schestowitz | Most are using GNU/Linux for this | Mar 27 00:32 |
| _Hicham_ | I just use the IM | Mar 27 00:32 |
| schestowitz | But no AGPL | Mar 27 00:32 |
| _Hicham_ | through Pidgin | Mar 27 00:32 |
| schestowitz | Google give AGPL the finger | Mar 27 00:32 |
| Balrog_ | yeah, so do I | Mar 27 00:32 |
| schestowitz | And you can't get them to defned it | Mar 27 00:32 |
| Balrog_ | finch and adium | Mar 27 00:32 |
| schestowitz | milkingthegnu tried it | Mar 27 00:32 |
| balzac | And *that* is why I would be embarrassed to have RHCE certification. | Mar 27 00:32 |
| schestowitz | he published his talk with Chris DiBona | Mar 27 00:32 |
| _Hicham_ | balzac : what is RHCE? | Mar 27 00:32 |
| Balrog_ | We're planning on creating software at our university to fill a practical problem, and I'll do whatever I can to make it AGPL | Mar 27 00:32 |
| balzac | It would be like wearing a McDonalds hat. Would you like to super-size that? | Mar 27 00:33 |
| oiaohm | Phone market dropping will force phone markers to look for other markets. | Mar 27 00:33 |
| oiaohm | Ie nearest market is netbooks. | Mar 27 00:33 |
| balzac | Red Hat Certified Engineer | Mar 27 00:33 |
| balzac | something like that... | Mar 27 00:33 |
| schestowitz | >something like that... | Mar 27 00:33 |
| schestowitz | It's a good thing it's not an exam question | Mar 27 00:33 |
| schestowitz | "what is the qualification you are here to receive..?" | Mar 27 00:34 |
| balzac | Whitehurst maybe be marginally better than Hovespian, but it's only because he has Tienman and cheif-ponytail/beard Alan Cox in his corner. | Mar 27 00:34 |
| balzac | other than keeping those guys on staff, Whitehurst appears to be another Hovespian. | Mar 27 00:34 |
| balzac | Am I wrong? | Mar 27 00:34 |
| schestowitz | balzac: Cox moved to Intel | Mar 27 00:35 |
| schestowitz | Cox supports GPLv3 BTW | Mar 27 00:35 |
| balzac | Whitehurst probably stank him out of the company with his expedient, quarter-to-quarter profit-taking tactics. | Mar 27 00:35 |
| balzac | Cox is the man | Mar 27 00:36 |
| balzac | so is Tienman | Mar 27 00:36 |
| balzac | but they can't save Redhat from Whitehurst. | Mar 27 00:36 |
| schestowitz | The TIME to ARM has come.... http://www.linuxdevices.com/news... | Mar 27 00:36 |
| balzac | he's the shot-caller and he doesn't give a rat's ass about software freedom, apparently. | Mar 27 00:36 |
| schestowitz | I'm not sure | Mar 27 00:36 |
| schestowitz | He uses an Ogg player | Mar 27 00:37 |
| Balrog_ | do you think that MS will port Windows to ARM for OLPC, as Negroponte wants? | Mar 27 00:37 |
| schestowitz | He refused to buy a PMP without Ogg support | Mar 27 00:37 |
| oiaohm | Balrog_ arm version of windows is very much like the PPC port. | Mar 27 00:37 |
| balzac | A CEO is clever enough to make a gesture of idealism now and then. | Mar 27 00:37 |
| schestowitz | Don't compare him to Hovo Sapient | Mar 27 00:37 |
| oiaohm | What is the point of having Windows on ARM if you don't have the applications Balrog_ | Mar 27 00:37 |
| Balrog_ | meaning rewrite all apps, right? | Mar 27 00:37 |
| balzac | but Whitehurst is probably the guy who said to cuddle the Redhat logo with the Microsoft logo on that press-release. | Mar 27 00:37 |
| balzac | he's a Bill Gates suck-up. | Mar 27 00:38 |
| oiaohm | PPC port of windows did not even have a MS office port Balrog_ | Mar 27 00:38 |
| schestowitz | Yeah, MS logo in redhat.com was bad... | Mar 27 00:38 |
| schestowitz | I grabbed a screenie | Mar 27 00:38 |
| schestowitz | Put it in BN | Mar 27 00:38 |
| balzac | Whitehurst and Hovespian probably are in the same yacht club. | Mar 27 00:38 |
| oiaohm | balzac what Whitehust has been doing is right for a long term plan. | Mar 27 00:39 |
| oiaohm | Redhat really did not want to be attacked when they did not have there resources in order to fight back. | Mar 27 00:39 |
| balzac | It's bad for my business plans because I want to recommend Redhat instead of Novell. | Mar 27 00:39 |
| balzac | how so, oiaohm? | Mar 27 00:40 |
| oiaohm | Its a old business game. Play to be friendly. | Mar 27 00:40 |
| oiaohm | Then the other side does not investate what you are really upto as much. | Mar 27 00:40 |
| balzac | I figure, the choice for some clients is only between Redhat and Novell, because of their special relationship with multiple cpu mainframes. | Mar 27 00:40 |
| oiaohm | Did redhat sign patent deals with Microsoft nop. | Mar 27 00:41 |
| balzac | ok, valid point. | Mar 27 00:41 |
| oiaohm | Have they done press releases that make them not look threating yes. | Mar 27 00:41 |
| oiaohm | Its what you call playing friendly. | Mar 27 00:41 |
| oiaohm | You don't agree on the big stuff but you don't look like you are out to get them. | Mar 27 00:41 |
| balzac | Well, I guess I may recommend Redhat still, but I'm looking at Ubuntu and Debian. | Mar 27 00:41 |
| oiaohm | So if they attack you they are the bad guy. | Mar 27 00:41 |
| Balrog_ | What about other rpm-based distros? | Mar 27 00:42 |
| oiaohm | Yes Redhat does know what they are doing. | Mar 27 00:42 |
| oiaohm | Its just really hard to work out at times. | Mar 27 00:42 |
| _Hicham_ | Debian remains the real free OS | Mar 27 00:42 |
| schestowitz | balzac: Fedora/Red Hat is improving FOSS GPU drivers 4 u... http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/35343 | Mar 27 00:43 |
| schestowitz | Included by default in F11 | Mar 27 00:43 |
| _Hicham_ | Roy : they don't even support ATI | Mar 27 00:43 |
| _Hicham_ | there is no fglrx module in their repo | Mar 27 00:43 |
| oiaohm | Fedora is a development arm. | Mar 27 00:44 |
| balzac | Roy, they're also the reason that Linux Kernel isn't upgraded to GPLv3 because they can't seem to concieve of a billing arrangement which doesn't include DRM for managing the number of CPUs. | Mar 27 00:44 |
| schestowitz | Proof? | Mar 27 00:44 |
| schestowitz | Please? | Mar 27 00:44 |
| balzac | Why doesn't Redhat try a new method of collecting revenue, rather than restricting CPUs with DRM in the kernel? | Mar 27 00:44 |
| balzac | well, I'm surmising this. | Mar 27 00:45 |
| oiaohm | Redhat really does not. | Mar 27 00:45 |
| balzac | if Linus were to upgrade to GPLv3, perhaps the NYSE deal couldn't have happened. | Mar 27 00:45 |
| oiaohm | I have run Redhats with standard kernels. | Mar 27 00:45 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : and how do u compare it to other distros? | Mar 27 00:46 |
| balzac | or it could have, but Redhat would have to find another way of getting income proportional from their clients other than by restricting CPUs with DRM. | Mar 27 00:46 |
| oiaohm | The kernel from Redhat don't use DRM to limit CPU. | Mar 27 00:46 |
| oiaohm | Its standard kernel optmisation switches. | Mar 27 00:46 |
| oiaohm | Yes Linux kernel can be built optmised for different numbers of CPU's. | Mar 27 00:46 |
| balzac | fedora won't run on more than four cpus? | Mar 27 00:47 |
| balzac | Redhat will run on many more? | Mar 27 00:47 |
| oiaohm | I have run Fedora on 16 cpus | Mar 27 00:47 |
| oiaohm | So it bull crap. | Mar 27 00:47 |
| balzac | so you are in breach of copyright law or DMCA if you use an unlicensed redhat on a 16 cpu mainframe? | Mar 27 00:47 |
| oiaohm | Its having the right optimised kernel so it performance | Mar 27 00:47 |
| balzac | oiaohm: was my assertion correct at an earlier date? | Mar 27 00:48 |
| balzac | can you run fedora on 32 cpus? | Mar 27 00:48 |
| oiaohm | Nop Fedora is used in some suppers as well. | Mar 27 00:48 |
| balzac | Maybe my info is out of date. | Mar 27 00:48 |
| oiaohm | There is no limitation of the form you are defining. | Mar 27 00:48 |
| balzac | legal penalties? | Mar 27 00:48 |
| oiaohm | Nop. | Mar 27 00:48 |
| oiaohm | Nothing. | Mar 27 00:48 |
| balzac | why is it that I'm breaking the law if I run redhat without buying it? | Mar 27 00:48 |
| oiaohm | You are not. | Mar 27 00:49 |
| oiaohm | Fedora is not Redhat enterpises. | Mar 27 00:49 |
| balzac | how am I breaking the law if I buy redhat, copy it, hand out. Redhat enterprise, not fedora. | Mar 27 00:49 |
| oiaohm | Redhat enterpise has propirity closed source bits. | Mar 27 00:49 |
| balzac | if I copy redhat enterprise, hand it to someone else, am I not breaking the law? | Mar 27 00:49 |
| balzac | exactly what I'm talking about. | Mar 27 00:49 |
| oiaohm | They are not kernel level. | Mar 27 00:49 |
| *Balrog_ has quit () | Mar 27 00:50 | |
| balzac | so, what do those proprietary bits do? | Mar 27 00:50 |
| oiaohm | Mostly better configuration. | Mar 27 00:50 |
| oiaohm | Some better codec support out box. | Mar 27 00:50 |
| balzac | so why can't Redhat try a more adult type of business model for extracting the revenue they're due? | Mar 27 00:50 |
| oiaohm | Also some programs are built with portland group complier. | Mar 27 00:51 |
| balzac | it's archaic and it's not in the spirit of free software. | Mar 27 00:51 |
| *Balrog_ (n=Balrog@pool-68-238-235-164.phil.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Mar 27 00:51 | |
| balzac | ick | Mar 27 00:51 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : so RedHat doesn't promote gcc that well? | Mar 27 00:51 |
| oiaohm | portland group complier runs rings arround default gcc in performance. | Mar 27 00:51 |
| balzac | so they've dangled their tea-bag into someone's snare and how is that good? | Mar 27 00:51 |
| Balrog_ | no, you can copy redhat enterprise if you remove all redhat branding | Mar 27 00:51 |
| *Balrog_ has quit (Client Quit) | Mar 27 00:52 | |
| oiaohm | and remove some parts that should not be shipped. | Mar 27 00:52 |
| balzac | so why doesn't portland group release their source code under a free or open source license? | Mar 27 00:52 |
| _Hicham_ | so CentOS/RHEL is just like Firefox/IceWesel? | Mar 27 00:52 |
| balzac | Balrog: I can copy redhat, including the proprietary stuff, but without the branding? | Mar 27 00:52 |
| balzac | CentOS has no cpu limitations? | Mar 27 00:53 |
| oiaohm | CentOS no limitations. | Mar 27 00:53 |
| balzac | but its compiled by portland group | Mar 27 00:53 |
| balzac | well, it's weaselry | Mar 27 00:53 |
| oiaohm | Neither did http://www.whiteboxlinux.org/ | Mar 27 00:53 |
| oiaohm | What was basicaly a cleaned up redhat entterprise. | Mar 27 00:54 |
| oiaohm | portland group is a really old complier maker. Dates back before gcc existed. | Mar 27 00:54 |
| oiaohm | Gcc still has a lot of work todo before they catchup. | Mar 27 00:55 |
| balzac | Well, it shakes my confidence in the Linux Kernel project when they're coding for both gcc and portland group compilers, and their revenue comes from the companies selling portland-compiled binaries which are released. | Mar 27 00:56 |
| oiaohm | Basically if you want to fork redhat enterprise nothing legally stops you. | Mar 27 00:56 |
| balzac | It's more of what I call the Linux-without-GNU trend. | Mar 27 00:56 |
| oiaohm | No they code for gcc | Mar 27 00:56 |
| balzac | Android as well | Mar 27 00:56 |
| oiaohm | portland group complier has a translator from gcc to its own. | Mar 27 00:56 |
| balzac | gcc is an after-thought, it sounds like. | Mar 27 00:56 |
| oiaohm | They have been around the game for a long time. | Mar 27 00:57 |
| balzac | so. | Mar 27 00:57 |
| oiaohm | Remember every unix use to have there own complier. | Mar 27 00:57 |
| oiaohm | To sell a high performance complier back then you needed translators. | Mar 27 00:57 |
| balzac | screw the old proprietary unix. | Mar 27 00:57 |
| oiaohm | That is where portland group comes from. | Mar 27 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Gcc was badly designed from the start. | Mar 27 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Work to fix Gcc design flaws is under way. | Mar 27 00:58 |
| balzac | The license is quite nice. | Mar 27 00:58 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : from RMS design? | Mar 27 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Spliting linking and complier hand having linker with no optmiser that could work has been a major design flaw. | Mar 27 00:59 |
| balzac | It's technological materialism. Freedom is more important than efficiency. | Mar 27 00:59 |
| oiaohm | So yes RMS design. | Mar 27 00:59 |
| balzac | If everyone is a technological materialist and obsessed with efficiency, we'll have techno-fascism in a dystopian science fiction future. | Mar 27 00:59 |
| oiaohm | RMS copied other flawed designs of the day. | Mar 27 00:59 |
| oiaohm | Missed the group that were kinda ahead. | Mar 27 00:59 |
| oiaohm | Most likely because he did not have access to them. | Mar 27 01:00 |
| _Hicham_ | so it is just about link time optimization? | Mar 27 01:00 |
| balzac | and guys like Hovespian and Ballmer will stick a tube in your ear and suck your cerebral-spinal fluid out directly. | Mar 27 01:00 |
| oiaohm | link time optimization and thread optimisation. | Mar 27 01:00 |
| oiaohm | portland group complier takes a single thread program and makes it use multiable cpus very well. | Mar 27 01:00 |
| balzac | "Developers! Developers! Developers!" - it's just like a zombie who says "Brains! Brains! Brains!" | Mar 27 01:00 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : what do u think of PGO? | Mar 27 01:01 |
| oiaohm | Its just the case portland group complier is one of the best on the market. | Mar 27 01:01 |
| oiaohm | Ok costs but if you are one of the best in the market you get to charge for things. | Mar 27 01:01 |
| balzac | these guys will psychologically emasculate you | Mar 27 01:01 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : it is also the same price as MSVC | Mar 27 01:01 |
| schestowitz | balzac: *LOL* @ developers =brains | Mar 27 01:01 |
| balzac | Lessig is right, RMS is the philosopher of our age. | Mar 27 01:01 |
| schestowitz | Mary Jo Foley has a series running with MS employees | Mar 27 01:02 |
| oiaohm | MSVC is not the best for may things. | Mar 27 01:02 |
| schestowitz | She calls them "big brains" Ha! | Mar 27 01:02 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : u didn't tell me about PGO | Mar 27 01:02 |
| schestowitz | It doesn't take a genius to seer away from crime | Mar 27 01:02 |
| _Hicham_ | the Profile Guided Optimization | Mar 27 01:02 |
| oiaohm | MSVC may have link time but lack thead optmisation. | Mar 27 01:02 |
| schestowitz | balzac: did Lessig say that? | Mar 27 01:02 |
| _Hicham_ | PGO was introduced with MSVC 2005 | Mar 27 01:03 |
| balzac | They don't just want to subjugate your intellect with cognitive dissonance, they want to deplete your ego for the benefit of their own. Your testosterone goes down and you're probably losing sperm-count as a result of psychological subjugation through software. | Mar 27 01:03 |
| balzac | I was paraphrasing | Mar 27 01:03 |
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| schestowitz | balzac: I was under the impressiob that lesig downplayed RMS | Mar 27 01:03 |
| balzac | it's in the blerb for Free Software Free Society | Mar 27 01:03 |
| schestowitz | he didn't believe GNU would succeed | Mar 27 01:03 |
| schestowitz | He admitted he was wrong.. in 07/08 | Mar 27 01:03 |
| balzac | i think he saw the light | Mar 27 01:04 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Mar 27 01:04 |
| schestowitz | RMS also helps him | Mar 27 01:04 |
| schestowitz | Copyright activism | Mar 27 01:04 |
| schestowitz | Anti-DMCA and all that | Mar 27 01:04 |
| oiaohm | Profile Guild also exists in llvm and portland groups. Problem here is that it does not cover thread breaking up. | Mar 27 01:04 |
| schestowitz | RMS is multi-disciplinary | Mar 27 01:04 |
| oiaohm | There are even ways to do Profile guided with gcc. | Mar 27 01:04 |
| schestowitz | Also a politics buff | Mar 27 01:04 |
| oiaohm | Profiling applications and altering optmisation was nothing new even when MS did it. | Mar 27 01:05 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel itself includes a lot of gcc control instructions based on profiling. | Mar 27 01:05 |
| _Hicham_ | does it help improve the speed ? | Mar 27 01:06 |
| oiaohm | Speed for single cores or numbers of cores the application is designed for. | Mar 27 01:06 |
| oiaohm | Thread optmisation will break up loops and the like into more threads so all cores get the load. | Mar 27 01:07 |
| oiaohm | Something MSVC does not do. | Mar 27 01:07 |
| _Hicham_ | does OpenMP help with that? | Mar 27 01:07 |
| oiaohm | OpenMP requires coder to mark the locations. | Mar 27 01:07 |
| _Hicham_ | I know, I have seen some examples | Mar 27 01:08 |
| oiaohm | Complier that does thread optimisation you don't have to mark anything. | Mar 27 01:08 |
| _Hicham_ | didn't really work with it | Mar 27 01:08 |
| oiaohm | It works out where OpenMP alterations can be done for you. | Mar 27 01:08 |
| _Hicham_ | so with thread optimization OpenMP is useless? | Mar 27 01:08 |
| oiaohm | No coder does not need to worry about OpenMP | Mar 27 01:08 |
| oiaohm | Complier worries about it for him. | Mar 27 01:09 |
| oiaohm | Really handy when you have a stack of programms single threaded you need multithread. | Mar 27 01:09 |
| oiaohm | So they perform. | Mar 27 01:09 |
| _Hicham_ | so why not work on compiler multithreading optimization instead of OpenMP? | Mar 27 01:10 |
| oiaohm | Mostly intercommunication. | Mar 27 01:10 |
| oiaohm | So if sections of program has been OpenMP coverted you don't blow you feet off. | Mar 27 01:11 |
| oiaohm | By making non OpenMP sections multithread. | Mar 27 01:11 |
| oiaohm | Basically portland group has a good selling point at this time. | Mar 27 01:12 |
| oiaohm | http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/l... Also be aware that PGO is basically pointless on AMD64 processes. | Mar 27 01:14 |
| oiaohm | CPU is designed to cope jumping around in memory quicky. | Mar 27 01:14 |
| oiaohm | Yes I know quite a few people who try profile guide mode in MSVC on AMD64 and cannot work out why it does jack. Yet on a intel processor it does give a performance boost. | Mar 27 01:16 |
| oiaohm | You have to think of amd chip as designed like a rally car and the intel designed like a drag racer. | Mar 27 01:18 |
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| balzac | I've ranted pretty badly tonight. I think I should acknowledge that Mr. Whitehurst and even whats-her-name, Carly Fiorini from HP deserve some appreciation for the Redhat/NYSE deal. It's worth a lot for GNU/Linux to be in that position. | Mar 27 01:21 |
| balzac | but I'm just unhappy with the amount of funding for FSF and GNU, while all these big corporate open source fat-cats are rolling in cash. | Mar 27 01:22 |
| oiaohm | FSF and GNU does get some funding from them. | Mar 27 01:22 |
| oiaohm | Lot of cases its freehardware. | Mar 27 01:22 |
| oiaohm | Or other forms of support. | Mar 27 01:23 |
| balzac | They don't give enough appreciation for the "head-waters of prosperity" - the very modern license which is facilitating this new higher-level integration which was not possible with the archaic licenses. | Mar 27 01:23 |
| oiaohm | Its bit like the first time Linux kernel.org said it need servers to say operating. | Mar 27 01:23 |
| balzac | yeah, but it's a pittance, oiaohm. | Mar 27 01:23 |
| oiaohm | They got swamped. | Mar 27 01:23 |
| balzac | compared to how they benefit from GNU licensing and GNU software. | Mar 27 01:23 |
| balzac | it's disproportionately small. | Mar 27 01:24 |
| oiaohm | You have to remember lot of these firms give back souce code too. | Mar 27 01:24 |
| balzac | liberty is the source of prosperity | Mar 27 01:24 |
| oiaohm | Paying developers is not nothing. | Mar 27 01:24 |
| oiaohm | Lots and lots of money does go into open source indirecty. | Mar 27 01:24 |
| balzac | yeah, I know, but money is more liquid, and the FSF and GNU could use a lot more of it. | Mar 27 01:25 |
| oiaohm | Redhat pays the maintainer that takes care of gcc even that they dont' use it everywhere. | Mar 27 01:25 |
| balzac | direct funding is severely lacking. | Mar 27 01:25 |
| oiaohm | Linux Foundation gets a lot of direct funding. | Mar 27 01:25 |
| oiaohm | GNU and FSF sometimes anti closed source has kept some funding away from them. | Mar 27 01:26 |
| balzac | yeah, but look at how Linux is trending away from GNU - no GCC for the eterprise, no GNU user-space for android. | Mar 27 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Gcc will return for enterpise when it good enough. | Mar 27 01:26 |
| balzac | that's why I'm hoping the Hurd will get more developers. | Mar 27 01:27 |
| oiaohm | Redhat would not be funding developers if that was not there plan. | Mar 27 01:27 |
| oiaohm | No gnu userspace in android. Thinking gnu userspace was just a system matic clone of Unix. | Mar 27 01:28 |
| balzac | oiaohm: or it will be neglected and we'll just have to buy hardware from CPU-makers who don't favor the proprietary software ideologues. | Mar 27 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Really android is the first true framework purely design with the idea of running on Linux. | Mar 27 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Not a clone of something else. | Mar 27 01:28 |
| balzac | low end cpus are fine with me. I don't need to run a stock-exchange or play the latest Crysis | Mar 27 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Its really a sign of Linux kernel entering maturity. | Mar 27 01:29 |
| oiaohm | When people are game to take it on completely new paths. | Mar 27 01:29 |
| balzac | The Linux Kernel's coming of age doesn't make me very sentimental if there's no appreciation for GNU, and no move towards more modern kernel design. | Mar 27 01:30 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel intrenals are changing. | Mar 27 01:30 |
| balzac | yeah, but not necessarily for the betterment of everyone. | Mar 27 01:30 |
| oiaohm | So yes it is becoming way more modern. | Mar 27 01:30 |
| oiaohm | Really it is for the betterment of everyone. | Mar 27 01:31 |
| balzac | more efficient with high-end hardware partners, but not more elegant or intelligent in the fundamental design. | Mar 27 01:31 |
| oiaohm | What happened if Linux did win the software war and GNU was the only stack on it. | Mar 27 01:31 |
| oiaohm | How can you say stagmentation. | Mar 27 01:32 |
| oiaohm | same fault effected Unix for years. | Mar 27 01:32 |
| oiaohm | Android is not a bad thing really. | Mar 27 01:32 |
| balzac | stagnation - ancient macro-kernel design which is basically a clone of proprietary unix kernels. | Mar 27 01:32 |
| oiaohm | It has people thinking about upper level design. | Mar 27 01:33 |
| balzac | I'm not saying it's bad, but it may be a part of a bad trend of neglecting more fundamentally and historically important projects. | Mar 27 01:33 |
| oiaohm | Do you remember Xerox R&D that lead today. | Mar 27 01:33 |
| balzac | I'm going to buy a T-Mobile G1 and jail-break it. | Mar 27 01:33 |
| oiaohm | You don't find much of it in current day systems. | Mar 27 01:34 |
| balzac | I'll also keep recommending Redhat for really high-end clients, if I should get a consulting gig at that level. | Mar 27 01:34 |
| oiaohm | GNU project could end up the same. | Mar 27 01:34 |
| oiaohm | They proved the path that open source could work. | Mar 27 01:34 |
| balzac | oiaohm: I bet that won't happen. The GNU project is golden. | Mar 27 01:34 |
| oiaohm | Now others many take Open Souce in completely new directions. | Mar 27 01:35 |
| oiaohm | creditionals patch that just went into Linux does allow for Linux in time to run a secuirty system that is not posix. | Mar 27 01:35 |
| balzac | GNU has timeless principles enshrined. the GNU GPL pre-amble is a historically-significant peice of work, not a "flash in the pan" like a technological fad. | Mar 27 01:35 |
| oiaohm | Yes nothing posix releated. | Mar 27 01:35 |
| balzac | GNU is the strongest brand in software. | Mar 27 01:35 |
| oiaohm | Does not matter how strong a brand is. | Mar 27 01:36 |
| oiaohm | If time moves on time moves on. | Mar 27 01:36 |
| balzac | There's a reason it's the strongest brand - it has the most ideological integrity. | Mar 27 01:36 |
| oiaohm | GNU will remain like the X symbol of X11 that is based of Xerox first logo with a line threw it for not Xerox | Mar 27 01:37 |
| balzac | oiaohm: maybe times will leave you feeling like an old technologist who is dated, who missed the boat some day. | Mar 27 01:37 |
| oiaohm | In time people might forget what it was. | Mar 27 01:37 |
| _Hicham_ | and companies are sponsoring GNU | Mar 27 01:37 |
| balzac | better think about your legacy and don't embrace techno-fads at the expense of staying relevant | Mar 27 01:37 |
| balzac | oiaohm: it almost sounds like you wish it would happen. | Mar 27 01:38 |
| balzac | what is your opinion of the preamble of the GNU-GPL? | Mar 27 01:38 |
| _Hicham_ | new tech doesn't improve productivity forcibly | Mar 27 01:38 |
| oiaohm | I have seen enough stuff come and go. | Mar 27 01:38 |
| balzac | What's your opinion of the GNU Manifesto? Have you read free software, free society? | Mar 27 01:38 |
| oiaohm | To know by now GNU has been a key event. | Mar 27 01:38 |
| oiaohm | But in the last few years name key things GNU has done. | Mar 27 01:39 |
| balzac | it's called intellectual materialism when you cling to information. | Mar 27 01:39 |
| oiaohm | How many new project have joined the gnu project | Mar 27 01:39 |
| oiaohm | This is the problem its got itself into stagnation. | Mar 27 01:39 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : a lot | Mar 27 01:39 |
| oiaohm | Not licence _Hicham_ | Mar 27 01:40 |
| balzac | oiaohm: it's an on-going legacy of un-bowed, un-compromised freedom. | Mar 27 01:40 |
| oiaohm | The core gnu project. | Mar 27 01:40 |
| balzac | and I rely on the software every day. | Mar 27 01:40 |
| _Hicham_ | GNU project lacks one things | Mar 27 01:40 |
| _Hicham_ | one thing | Mar 27 01:40 |
| _Hicham_ | an Operating System | Mar 27 01:40 |
| oiaohm | It lacks a lot more. | Mar 27 01:40 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : what does it lack? | Mar 27 01:41 |
| oiaohm | Exactly what reason did google build android. | Mar 27 01:41 |
| balzac | Linux is still licensed under GPLv2, last I checked. | Mar 27 01:41 |
| balzac | Every copy of Android carries the GNU GPL preamble. | Mar 27 01:41 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel is not part of the GNU project balzac | Mar 27 01:42 |
| oiaohm | This is what I am getting at. | Mar 27 01:42 |
| balzac | so, that is why GNU is the strongest brand in software - it has timeless principles which are being distributed with every copy of every gnu-licensed package. | Mar 27 01:42 |
| oiaohm | GNU project the hart of GNU is basically dieing. When it first started it was inoviation. | Mar 27 01:42 |
| balzac | Even Chrome and Safari are spreading the gospel of free software. | Mar 27 01:42 |
| oiaohm | emacs from there was the first all in 1 supper tool. | Mar 27 01:43 |
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| balzac | Even Novell's patent-trojan GNU/Linux is spreading the preamble. | Mar 27 01:43 |
| oiaohm | The simple inovation bit of GNU has gone. | Mar 27 01:43 |
| oiaohm | Now other parties are using the licences. | Mar 27 01:43 |
| _Hicham_ | GNU isn't dying oiaohm | Mar 27 01:43 |
| oiaohm | The licence wil not die. | Mar 27 01:43 |
| balzac | oiaohm: I disagree. You're totally missing the boat. | Mar 27 01:43 |
| _Hicham_ | it is still fighting | Mar 27 01:43 |
| oiaohm | The relievents of the core GNU Project could. | Mar 27 01:44 |
| balzac | it's not merely fighting, it's spreading like all over the world. | Mar 27 01:44 |
| _Hicham_ | look at the GNU Software Database | Mar 27 01:44 |
| _Hicham_ | and u say that no software joined GNU? | Mar 27 01:44 |
| oiaohm | Its like busybox it has a place in embed market because the default runtime provide by the gnu project is massivally bloated. | Mar 27 01:44 |
| balzac | Linux is an ox which is pulling a chariot with a GNU riding in the back. | Mar 27 01:44 |
| oiaohm | The main project of GNU basically has bit rot. | Mar 27 01:45 |
| schestowitz | balzac: see http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/24/the... | Mar 27 01:45 |
| balzac | ok, it's a penguin, a very large and powerful Emperor penguin, but every where it waddles, it pulls the GNU's chariot. | Mar 27 01:45 |
| oiaohm | GNU project was not chosen as the base of Android because it needs work. | Mar 27 01:46 |
| oiaohm | Its really bad when it simple to create a complete new framework than clean something up. | Mar 27 01:46 |
| oiaohm | GNU project has lost there way. Its not over for them. | Mar 27 01:47 |
| balzac | oiaohm: you've lost your way. it's not over for you. | Mar 27 01:47 |
| _Hicham_ | Roy : u r two pictures are confusing | Mar 27 01:47 |
| oiaohm | Just been in coreutils and other things balzac | Mar 27 01:47 |
| oiaohm | They are code vial | Mar 27 01:47 |
| balzac | BASH is the top shell, although bourn-shell is the standard for shell script compatibility. | Mar 27 01:48 |
| balzac | Roy, I'm wondering if Dan O'Brien is a pseudonym. | Mar 27 01:48 |
| balzac | Roy, I'm wondering if Dan O'Brian is a pseudonym. | Mar 27 01:48 |
| balzac | sorry for the double post | Mar 27 01:48 |
| oiaohm | Even the internals of bash are not as clean as they should be balzac | Mar 27 01:49 |
| balzac | oiaohm: perfection is not my obsession | Mar 27 01:49 |
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| oiaohm | The lack of perfection created the android event and will most likely create more. | Mar 27 01:49 |
| balzac | oiaohm: you can quit criticizing GNU software and contribute if you care to. | Mar 27 01:49 |
| balzac | What's your OS? What's your shell? How many GPL-licensed processes are running on your machine right now? | Mar 27 01:50 |
| oiaohm | Many patches I have submited to sort out coreutils were rejected on the grounds that core untils could not be turned into a single lib with small stubs. | Mar 27 01:50 |
| oiaohm | There are many functions in core untils that do basically the same things. | Mar 27 01:51 |
| oiaohm | other than minor option alterations. | Mar 27 01:51 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : u should be more realistic | Mar 27 01:51 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : polymorphism in C | Mar 27 01:51 |
| oiaohm | Done that. | Mar 27 01:52 |
| oiaohm | Not that bad really _Hicham_ | Mar 27 01:52 |
| oiaohm | The total difference between some of the core until programs is 4 lines of code in some cases. | Mar 27 01:52 |
| oiaohm | 2 lines being the help and what the application is. | Mar 27 01:52 |
| oiaohm | So only 2 lines of active code difference. | Mar 27 01:53 |
| oiaohm | yes complete bloat. | Mar 27 01:53 |
| balzac | Access to the official GNU repositories is something earned not only by technological proficiency, but also by commitment to the principles the project was founded on. | Mar 27 01:53 |
| balzac | I'll take code which is good enough under a free license over awesome code under a license which takes my freedom. | Mar 27 01:54 |
| oiaohm | More on commitment to principles the project was founded on than providing a good working product. | Mar 27 01:54 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : u have to deal with legacy programs | Mar 27 01:55 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not very easy | Mar 27 01:55 |
| balzac | as it should be | Mar 27 01:55 |
| oiaohm | I do have to deal with legacy programs. | Mar 27 01:55 |
| oiaohm | The messier the code the harder it is to mainatain. | Mar 27 01:55 |
| balzac | you used a revealing word: "product" | Mar 27 01:55 |
| oiaohm | The more errors you get. | Mar 27 01:55 |
| oiaohm | More future legacy problems you cause. | Mar 27 01:56 |
| oiaohm | Basically gnu is in a self caused downwards spiral. | Mar 27 01:56 |
| _Hicham_ | http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gr... | Mar 27 01:57 |
| oiaohm | It was lack of quality controls that also got GCC into a major internal mess. | Mar 27 01:57 |
| _Hicham_ | http://boycottnovell.com/images/S... | Mar 27 01:57 |
| balzac | oiaohm: maybe you should consider a PR job at Microsoft. You could write some really technologically-informed propaganda for them. | Mar 27 01:57 |
| _Hicham_ | is it Roy on both pictures? | Mar 27 01:57 |
| oiaohm | I am truthful that would be my problem balzac | Mar 27 01:57 |
| oiaohm | I would rip MS appart equally. | Mar 27 01:57 |
| oiaohm | And I do. | Mar 27 01:58 |
| oiaohm | This is my problem I don't just hate 1 OS. | Mar 27 01:58 |
| oiaohm | I hate something in them all. | Mar 27 01:58 |
| balzac | well, your priorities are not mine, and I wouldn't trade your technological knowledge for my principles. | Mar 27 01:58 |
| oiaohm | My principles is truthful allows you to see way forwards. | Mar 27 01:59 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : mess is inevitable | Mar 27 01:59 |
| balzac | what principle is that you're referring to? | Mar 27 01:59 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: yes | Mar 27 01:59 |
| oiaohm | If people listern take the problems onboard they can be fix. | Mar 27 01:59 |
| schestowitz | Lighting condisitions | Mar 27 01:59 |
| _Hicham_ | Roy : in one u r with gold hair, and the other with dark hair | Mar 27 01:59 |
| oiaohm | Now if they let other principles get in the way of seeing problems. | Mar 27 01:59 |
| oiaohm | That causes project deaths. | Mar 27 02:00 |
| _Hicham_ | in one u look younger, and the other older Roy | Mar 27 02:00 |
| oiaohm | Ie android not to your key ideas of GNU. You have to ask why. | Mar 27 02:00 |
| oiaohm | Its not like creating a new API set is simple. | Mar 27 02:00 |
| balzac | oiaohm: you're writing very subjectively. I don't have to ask why because my attention is focused on something else completely from yours. | Mar 27 02:00 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : u have to deal with messy code | Mar 27 02:01 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : and find hacks | Mar 27 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Yes _Hicham_ | Mar 27 02:01 |
| balzac | I'd suggest you put a little attention on the "software" which is between your ears. | Mar 27 02:01 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : that is how things go | Mar 27 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Find and repair work I do a lot. | Mar 27 02:01 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : like data recovery | Mar 27 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Yep | Mar 27 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Gives me a way different point of view. | Mar 27 02:02 |
| oiaohm | Idologies really don't have a place in me. Like being pro gnu pro MS pro Linux pro mac. Open Source make logical sence from a data recovery point of view. | Mar 27 02:03 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : explain more | Mar 27 02:03 |
| balzac | sure you have ideology at work | Mar 27 02:03 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : what does open source to do with data recovery? | Mar 27 02:04 |
| oiaohm | In 100 years time you find a file. If you have the source code to the application that created you can use that source code to make a new program that reads that file on the OS of the time. | Mar 27 02:04 |
| oiaohm | Open Source opens up access over the longer term. | Mar 27 02:04 |
| oiaohm | Closed source program same event you can have some major troubles. | Mar 27 02:05 |
| balzac | I appreciate the value of BSD-style licenses | Mar 27 02:05 |
| oiaohm | I see thing logically too. BSD licences did not help Freebsd and the like develop | Mar 27 02:05 |
| _Hicham_ | closed source legacy programs are hard to manipulate also | Mar 27 02:06 |
| balzac | I appreciate code which is distributed without any license at all | Mar 27 02:06 |
| oiaohm | There is a neigitve side to that. | Mar 27 02:06 |
| oiaohm | People using the code don't have to mainatain it balzac for everyone else. | Mar 27 02:06 |
| balzac | but I definitely appreciate the value of the copyleft for enshrining the message of liberty in a self-perpetuating license, spreading freedom among all derivatives. | Mar 27 02:07 |
| balzac | that's a great and historical thing. | Mar 27 02:07 |
| balzac | I appreciate the choice to keep code to yourself, if you so choose | Mar 27 02:07 |
| balzac | but I don't appreciate the scorched-earth campaign against freedom waged by the proprietary software giants. | Mar 27 02:08 |
| balzac | Thank goodness for the GNU project. | Mar 27 02:08 |
| oiaohm | Can you see where we differ. balzac I more look at a overview of what is going on, What caused it, and where it could be going | Mar 27 02:08 |
| oiaohm | Currently GNU project still has time to react. | Mar 27 02:08 |
| balzac | no need | Mar 27 02:09 |
| balzac | let others react to GNU actions | Mar 27 02:09 |
| oiaohm | Said thing would be if GNU came nother more than a licence provider. | Mar 27 02:09 |
| balzac | that's funny | Mar 27 02:10 |
| oiaohm | Opps | Mar 27 02:10 |
| oiaohm | nother nothing other | Mar 27 02:10 |
| balzac | not the typo but what you meant to say | Mar 27 02:10 |
| oiaohm | Hmm have not done that in a while word merge. | Mar 27 02:10 |
| balzac | why would I quit using Bash? | Mar 27 02:11 |
| balzac | Emacs? | Mar 27 02:11 |
| oiaohm | Its like all things. | Mar 27 02:11 |
| oiaohm | Better tools and solutions can appear in time. | Mar 27 02:11 |
| balzac | Why wouldn't I keep using screen, and all the gnu versions of grep, awk, sed, ed, vim, etc ? | Mar 27 02:11 |
| balzac | yeah, and maybe I'll make them myself. | Mar 27 02:12 |
| oiaohm | ed most people dont use. | Mar 27 02:12 |
| balzac | I just used it. | Mar 27 02:12 |
| balzac | a guy in #bash gave me a cool peice of code to use which uses ed | Mar 27 02:12 |
| schestowitz | Catch you tomorrow | Mar 27 02:13 |
| balzac | exactly according to my specifications in just a couple of minutes | Mar 27 02:13 |
| balzac | ttyl schestowitz | Mar 27 02:13 |
| _Hicham_ | Roy : are u leaving? | Mar 27 02:13 |
| oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BusyBox <<notice what busybox covers balzac | Mar 27 02:14 |
| balzac | oiaohm: if these better tools don't have a license which keeps a strong community of free users, I won't bother with them. | Mar 27 02:14 |
| balzac | I might clone their better features and put it under a better license. | Mar 27 02:14 |
| oiaohm | less size on disk and in memory equal function. | Mar 27 02:14 |
| oiaohm | That is the issue. | Mar 27 02:14 |
| balzac | but then the thought police will come after me | Mar 27 02:14 |
| balzac | "You can't have my idea. I patented that and now I'm going to lock you up!" | Mar 27 02:15 |
| balzac | that idea belongs to me! don't think that! | Mar 27 02:15 |
| oiaohm | GNU project has a lot of tools. But it is really lacking quaility. | Mar 27 02:15 |
| oiaohm | So leaving it open to be broken up by forking. | Mar 27 02:15 |
| balzac | oiaohm: so I take it you're running Solaris? | Mar 27 02:16 |
| balzac | or AIX? | Mar 27 02:16 |
| balzac | Apple? | Mar 27 02:16 |
| balzac | BSD? | Mar 27 02:16 |
| oiaohm | Linux currently. | Mar 27 02:17 |
| oiaohm | I do have to run Solaris as well. | Mar 27 02:17 |
| balzac | GNU and Linux or just android? | Mar 27 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Lot of GNU project parts are no on this machine. | Mar 27 02:18 |
| oiaohm | Mostly because its optmised to embeded development. | Mar 27 02:18 |
| balzac | what shell? | Mar 27 02:18 |
| oiaohm | ash | Mar 27 02:18 |
| oiaohm | To be correct ash in bussbox. | Mar 27 02:18 |
| oiaohm | busybox | Mar 27 02:18 |
| balzac | is your ash gnu-licensed? | Mar 27 02:19 |
| oiaohm | Yes | Mar 27 02:19 |
| balzac | hmm | Mar 27 02:19 |
| oiaohm | I have no problem with the GNU licence. | Mar 27 02:20 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : can I say that u don't mix ethics with software? | Mar 27 02:20 |
| balzac | so they benefit from the GNU license, spread the GNU brand, FSF name, and four freedoms message. | Mar 27 02:20 |
| balzac | oiaohm: how big is the ash user community? | Mar 27 02:21 |
| oiaohm | Embeded world huge balzac | Mar 27 02:21 |
| balzac | that's nice to know | Mar 27 02:21 |
| balzac | maybe it has something to do with the license. | Mar 27 02:21 |
| oiaohm | Because bash is too bloated to use on lot of devices. | Mar 27 02:21 |
| balzac | cool, I'm happy to know about ash. | Mar 27 02:21 |
| oiaohm | you find ash also in most initrds as well. | Mar 27 02:21 |
| balzac | why not dash? | Mar 27 02:22 |
| oiaohm | dash is ash expanded to support more bash stuff. | Mar 27 02:22 |
| oiaohm | dash is not supported by bussybox. | Mar 27 02:22 |
| oiaohm | So you cannot do complex things in a initrd like you can with busybox with just dash. | Mar 27 02:23 |
| balzac | ok | Mar 27 02:23 |
| balzac | well, I better get back to work | Mar 27 02:23 |
| balzac | or I'll die here in front of my computer | Mar 27 02:23 |
| balzac | at the office | Mar 27 02:23 |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_ I do have ethics. Just different ones. | Mar 27 02:24 |
| oiaohm | My ethics are about the long term good of everyone. | Mar 27 02:24 |
| oiaohm | idoligies don't fit too well into that. | Mar 27 02:24 |
| balzac | oiaohm: did you notice that I didn't say BSD licenses are bad, or even keeping software to yourself is inherently bad? | Mar 27 02:24 |
| oiaohm | I did before. | Mar 27 02:25 |
| oiaohm | With the long term data recovery comemt. | Mar 27 02:25 |
| oiaohm | That is the other thing I normally don't repeat myself on things. | Mar 27 02:25 |
| balzac | I'm just inclined to push back against thought-police, whether it's software or those would restrict your freedom of speech, writing, or anything else which is inherently a natural right. | Mar 27 02:25 |
| oiaohm | BSD licences are not bad but they way the are used are. | Mar 27 02:25 |
| oiaohm | Difference here I am looking at long term good. | Mar 27 02:26 |
| balzac | and what long term good is that? | Mar 27 02:26 |
| balzac | BTW, I'm not sure we use the word "principle" to mean the same thing. | Mar 27 02:26 |
| oiaohm | All freedom is always restricted. | Mar 27 02:27 |
| oiaohm | Or you could kill who every you like. | Mar 27 02:27 |
| _Hicham_ | explain plz | Mar 27 02:27 |
| balzac | "freedom isn't free" is what he's saying in other words | Mar 27 02:27 |
| _Hicham_ | what an analogy | Mar 27 02:27 |
| balzac | freedom is free within the context of respecting other's freedom | Mar 27 02:27 |
| no, he's saying that society needs to protect itself from predation. | Mar 27 02:27 | |
| oiaohm | Exactly. | Mar 27 02:27 |
| oiaohm | Both are right here. | Mar 27 02:27 |
| oiaohm | Closed source programs that take away a person right to access there data is not protecting freedom. | Mar 27 02:28 |
| balzac | I gotta go | Mar 27 02:28 |
| balzac | ttyl oiaohm, _Hicham_ | Mar 27 02:28 |
| oiaohm | Closed soure programs that alter protocal so others cannot use them is not freedom either. | Mar 27 02:28 |
| oiaohm | see you around balzac | Mar 27 02:28 |
| oiaohm | As you can see _Hicham_ there is ethics in me just different. | Mar 27 02:29 |
| _Hicham_ | keep up the good work balzac | Mar 27 02:29 |
| non free software violates one of the four software freedoms by definition. | Mar 27 02:29 | |
| those freedoms boil down to being able to use your computer as you see fit and help your neighbor do the same | Mar 27 02:30 | |
| oiaohm | Mine are based heavy on the software freedoms. | Mar 27 02:30 |
| _Hicham_ | do u have a license proposition? | Mar 27 02:30 |
| oiaohm | And those are required. | Mar 27 02:30 |
| software freedom is integral to other freedoms | Mar 27 02:30 | |
| oiaohm | I have nothing against people using there own licences | Mar 27 02:31 |
| software freedom can be violated, for example, by restricting people's network freedom. | Mar 27 02:31 | |
| oiaohm | As long as they don't encrouch on my freedoms. | Mar 27 02:31 |
| balzac | twitter: non free software only violates the four freedoms if you have no choice not to use it. | Mar 27 02:31 |
| encrouch, something related to tea bagging? | Mar 27 02:31 | |
| balzac | violation means your autonomy is being compromised | Mar 27 02:31 |
| oiaohm | Of course if you don't own the nework then the owner of the network can place restrictions is one of my differences to the software freedoms. | Mar 27 02:32 |
| oiaohm | But that is more a respect of people properity. | Mar 27 02:32 |
| balzac | to release proprietary software is not to violate someone else's freedom, but to smother the world with a proprietary software monopoly does violate other's autonomy and freedom. | Mar 27 02:32 |
| makers of non free software can violate your software freedom by making it impossible for you to run any software | Mar 27 02:32 | |
| ACPI is a good example of this | Mar 27 02:33 | |
| balzac | If I have to pay taxes, and the IRS.gov site requires activeX controls and IE, my autonomy is being violated, my freedom robbed. | Mar 27 02:33 |
| networks are only useful if they are free and they gain their value by the number of people on them. | Mar 27 02:33 | |
| oiaohm | Open standard file formats really are more important to me than open source. | Mar 27 02:34 |
| oiaohm | Yes I value data. | Mar 27 02:34 |
| the only true private networks that exist are things like tin cans with strings. as soon as you connect your network to others, it becomes public because you have involved people and machines that are not under your control. | Mar 27 02:34 | |
| oiaohm | Its something people don't understand lost data can kill. | Mar 27 02:35 |
| When you spy on "your" employee's communications, for example, you spy on someone else too. | Mar 27 02:35 | |
| oiaohm | Restrict is not spy. | Mar 27 02:36 |
| oiaohm | Ie if the person cannot do it in the first place you don't need to spy on them. | Mar 27 02:36 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : twitter is not talking about that | Mar 27 02:37 |
| _Hicham_ | he is talking about spying | Mar 27 02:37 |
| If your restrictions keep your users from sharing, you have robbed them of software freedom. | Mar 27 02:37 | |
| spying is only one example of things people mistakenly think they have a right to do to public networks. | Mar 27 02:37 | |
| _Hicham_ | spying on the users visited websites for example | Mar 27 02:37 |
| oiaohm | depends where they using your machine twitter | Mar 27 02:38 |
| I'm not sure about that | Mar 27 02:38 | |
| oiaohm | If they are using your machine that is your properity is like allowing them to use anything else of yours. | Mar 27 02:38 |
| balzac | twitter: I agree, to the extent that there isn't choice, or incentives or coercive techniques are used to limit choice. | Mar 27 02:38 |
| oiaohm | It a basic freedom people forget about. | Mar 27 02:38 |
| how can you restrict if you don't monitor? | Mar 27 02:38 | |
| isn't monitoring just another word for spying? | Mar 27 02:38 | |
| oiaohm | monitoring by machine that blocks and does not keep logs | Mar 27 02:39 |
| oiaohm | that is not spying. | Mar 27 02:39 |
| an enlightened company won't do any of these things, they will simply give employees tasks to do and judge performance based on the job getting done | Mar 27 02:39 | |
| oiaohm | Other is large network logs of visited blocked sides without users on machines. | Mar 27 02:40 |
| balzac | twitter, if you make information available, you cannot take it back. information you don't want to be available to those you don't trust should not be made available to them. | Mar 27 02:40 |
| the rest of it is an expensive waste of time | Mar 27 02:40 | |
| oiaohm | Not really. | Mar 27 02:40 |
| balzac | But if all the ISPs are caching years of user data, and never to be deleted, freedom is being destroyed. | Mar 27 02:40 |
| oiaohm | You will be supprised how many viruses and other bad malware can be prevent by blocking off particular sets of sites. | Mar 27 02:40 |
| sharing restricted company information is a job function. in real cases, the results will be obvious. | Mar 27 02:40 | |
| oiaohm | There is a place for restrictions. | Mar 27 02:41 |
| It's a lot easier to block malware by not running Windows | Mar 27 02:41 | |
| balzac | much like in a city like Shenzen where you have cameras everywhere. | Mar 27 02:41 |
| restrictions are expensive and must be fully justified. "Windows is weak" is not a justification | Mar 27 02:41 | |
| oiaohm | Its like internal only projects planing for a contract | Mar 27 02:41 |
| oiaohm | You don't need to tell the cleaners in the company the information. | Mar 27 02:41 |
| you don't have to violate the cleaner's software freedom to restrict that either | Mar 27 02:42 | |
| oiaohm | Information at times requires restrictions for the good of everyone. | Mar 27 02:42 |
| oiaohm | Of course infomation incorrectly restricted causes harm. | Mar 27 02:42 |
| balzac | twitter: I'm more aligned with your ideology | Mar 27 02:42 |
| balzac | as far as I understand it | Mar 27 02:43 |
| oiaohm | Its the balanicing act of business network management. | Mar 27 02:43 |
| balzac | freedom is precious, so let's not build a prison around ourselves. | Mar 27 02:43 |
| balzac | ok, I'm out. | Mar 27 02:43 |
| oiaohm | Funny enough open source also is better to build a restricting system from. | Mar 27 02:43 |
| oiaohm | Since it can be audited. | Mar 27 02:43 |
| if you are trying to keep company information safe by restricting desktops, you are lost. information should be restricted where it is stored. | Mar 27 02:43 | |
| yes, configuration control is useful for machine owners | Mar 27 02:44 | |
| oiaohm | I really treat software a lot like devices in the real world. | Mar 27 02:45 |
| but the owner should be the employee, otherwise there's no privacy or dignity in the workplace | Mar 27 02:45 | |
| oiaohm | That is the case in most cases. | Mar 27 02:46 |
| oiaohm | System admins have all the access rights. | Mar 27 02:46 |
| that's not good, it will prevent employees from contributing as they could | Mar 27 02:46 | |
| it shows disrespect | Mar 27 02:46 | |
| oiaohm | And its the role of a system admin to keep secert anything they see they should not. | Mar 27 02:46 |
| oiaohm | Yes some days it suxs. | Mar 27 02:47 |
| oiaohm | You want to laugh at something funny you saw but you do you are fired for breach of privacy. | Mar 27 02:47 |
| oiaohm | Its also the reason why system admins normally don't eat with the rest of the staff. | Mar 27 02:47 |
| Doctors eat with others | Mar 27 02:48 | |
| _Hicham_ | this model of administration is old | Mar 27 02:48 |
| they have much darker secrets | Mar 27 02:48 | |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : this is anti-productive | Mar 27 02:48 |
| _Hicham_ | u can't make people work in those conditions | Mar 27 02:48 |
| _Hicham_ | this is pure humiliation | Mar 27 02:48 |
| the tension is between the need to fix a machine and the need for privacy. | Mar 27 02:48 | |
| you can't expect all employees to manage their own desktops | Mar 27 02:49 | |
| _Hicham_ | u don't treat them like humans in this case | Mar 27 02:49 |
| it is difficult to resolve but the user should be root | Mar 27 02:49 | |
| _Hicham_ | maintainance is one thing and freedom is another | Mar 27 02:49 |
| oiaohm | There is a reason why system admin and support person are two different people. | Mar 27 02:49 |
| administrators should be given root access only for the time required to fix the machine and the user's files should be encrypted | Mar 27 02:50 | |
| oiaohm | support person does not come into contact normally what they should not see. | Mar 27 02:50 |
| encrypted in some way that root can not gain the token to read | Mar 27 02:50 | |
| oiaohm | encrypted can cause data loss. | Mar 27 02:50 |
| lightning can cause data loss | Mar 27 02:51 | |
| oiaohm | Again twitter you are being idealisk. | Mar 27 02:51 |
| oiaohm | Do you know how often people lose passwords. | Mar 27 02:51 |
| how often do you look in your employee's wallet? | Mar 27 02:51 | |
| oiaohm | Heck one guy even managed to loss his finger tip to access laptop. | Mar 27 02:51 |
| oiaohm | Something you would think would be past loss. | Mar 27 02:52 |
| oiaohm | Highly secure network user files are encrypted. | Mar 27 02:52 |
| as things are, people are made "responsible" for their passwords, so you might as well make that password meaningful | Mar 27 02:53 | |
| oiaohm | But the keys to open them are in secure storage. | Mar 27 02:53 |
| oiaohm | So yes incase of need system admin can access files. | Mar 27 02:53 |
| oiaohm | You are underestmainting the importances of data twitter | Mar 27 02:53 |
| you undervalue privacy and personal dignity. | Mar 27 02:54 | |
| gotta go, it was fun chatting | Mar 27 02:54 | |
| gn | Mar 27 02:54 | |
| oiaohm | Talking to non system admins always gives a different point of view. | Mar 27 02:55 |
| oiaohm | The problem with privacy if you 100 percent value it. A company can go under. Data is the life blood of the company. | Mar 27 02:56 |
| oiaohm | I am always open with the staff that nothing on the system should be private information of thiers that they don't expect read by system admin at some point if things go wrong. | Mar 27 02:56 |
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| zer0c00l | later | Mar 27 03:06 |
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| tessier | schestowitz: Yes, I am looking forward to btrfs. | Mar 27 04:08 |
| oiaohm | btrfs + containers could be kill combination. | Mar 27 04:09 |
| tessier | Containers? | Mar 27 04:09 |
| oiaohm | cgroups | Mar 27 04:09 |
| tessier | cgroups? | Mar 27 04:09 |
| oiaohm | Means to run more than 1 distribution on 1 kernel. | Mar 27 04:10 |
| oiaohm | Even move running applications between machines. | Mar 27 04:10 |
| oiaohm | http://beta.linuxfoundation.org/colla... | Mar 27 04:11 |
| oiaohm | Verry powerful tech tessier | Mar 27 04:13 |
| tessier | Neat. I had never heard of this before. | Mar 27 04:13 |
| tessier | What would be a practical application? | Mar 27 04:13 |
| tessier | Why wouldn't you just full-on virtualize? | Mar 27 04:13 |
| oiaohm | Containers also provide a level of fine control over system resourses in ways past what most people think. | Mar 27 04:14 |
| oiaohm | Like means to suspend and resume groups of applications. | Mar 27 04:15 |
| oiaohm | In theory you could like suspend your desktop when playing a game. | Mar 27 04:15 |
| tessier | You would have to run the game in a different container then? | Mar 27 04:15 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Mar 27 04:15 |
| oiaohm | Containers don't have to have all features. | Mar 27 04:15 |
| tessier | And somehow let different containers have access to the console hardware at different times. That's tricky. | Mar 27 04:15 |
| oiaohm | You can control like just memory and leave out the other controlling features. | Mar 27 04:16 |
| oiaohm | Most fun one is network access control. | Mar 27 04:16 |
| oiaohm | So you can decide by what containers they own to how much network access the applications get. | Mar 27 04:16 |
| tessier | oops...I guess each container doesn't get its own IP? | Mar 27 04:17 |
| oiaohm | It does have to. | Mar 27 04:17 |
| oiaohm | You can if you want. | Mar 27 04:17 |
| oiaohm | Just like each container can have its own unique Process ID table if you want. | Mar 27 04:18 |
| tessier | Is this the same idea as solaris zones? | Mar 27 04:18 |
| oiaohm | solaris zones is the first form of container tech. | Mar 27 04:19 |
| oiaohm | So yes very much like solaris zones | Mar 27 04:19 |
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| oiaohm | With the alterations to X11 with DRI2 and KMS the options to do way more will be there since DRI2 and KMS opens up running two different version X11 servers inside each other. | Mar 27 04:20 |
| tessier | Yes, I was just reading a little about KMS today. That is going to be nice. | Mar 27 04:21 |
| oiaohm | Yep 1 kernel running every Linux Distribution known will become able to be done. | Mar 27 04:21 |
| oiaohm | I expect it will cause a change in the Linux world. No longer will users have to choose 1 distribution and miss out on what the others offer. | Mar 27 04:22 |
| tessier | I don't see that as being really all that useful though. | Mar 27 04:22 |
| oiaohm | containers don't take performance hits. | Mar 27 04:23 |
| oiaohm | Containers will in time enable users to suspend just there session and resume on another machine as well. | Mar 27 04:24 |
| oiaohm | Some of btrfs features will be needed so containers can work well. | Mar 27 04:24 |
| oiaohm | Particularly snapshotting. | Mar 27 04:25 |
| tessier | Yes, snapshotting will be killer. | Mar 27 04:25 |
| oiaohm | snapshotting + suspend groups of applications. | Mar 27 04:25 |
| oiaohm | Nice combination. | Mar 27 04:26 |
| oiaohm | Biggest problem with suspending groups of applications is disk getting out of alignment with when they were suspended. | Mar 27 04:26 |
| tessier | out of alignment? | Mar 27 04:26 |
| oiaohm | btrfs supports writable snapshots as well. | Mar 27 04:27 |
| oiaohm | Some file operation happens on a file the application depends on being of particular contents tessier | Mar 27 04:27 |
| oiaohm | Some when application is resumed and tries to get it bugger it stuffed. | Mar 27 04:27 |
| tessier | ah, groups of applications, not the whole container. | Mar 27 04:27 |
| tessier | I see. | Mar 27 04:28 |
| tessier | Seems like that sort of thing could happen any time though. | Mar 27 04:28 |
| tessier | If one app steps on another apps files... | Mar 27 04:28 |
| oiaohm | When a application is running it can be holding locks on files. | Mar 27 04:28 |
| oiaohm | So preventing being steped on. | Mar 27 04:28 |
| oiaohm | Snapshotting steps in where you don't have active locks. Also would allow multiable applications to be started up from the same suspended state. | Mar 27 04:29 |
| oiaohm | Since you could always get a filesystem back that existed when the suspended state was created. | Mar 27 04:30 |
| oiaohm | Yes snapshotting opens up a few more tricks. | Mar 27 04:30 |
| oiaohm | Does the importance of btrfs writable snapshots make sence now tessier | Mar 27 04:33 |
| tessier | Yes, I guess so. Although then it rather removes the distinction between what is a snap and what is the original fs. | Mar 27 04:34 |
| tessier | Taking a snap before a major upgrade or change is something I have always wanted to be able to do. | Mar 27 04:35 |
| tessier | Then the issue becomes how do you boot from the writeable snap or switch / over to it. | Mar 27 04:35 |
| oiaohm | With containers and writeable snapshots you could in theory do a major upgrade and still be using the old OS. | Mar 27 04:35 |
| oiaohm | The door to things that could not though of years ago is open. | Mar 27 04:36 |
| tessier | Already in January Australian Terry Baume had written a short paper describing the psyb0t malware that was beginning to crop up in Linux systems. | Mar 27 04:41 |
| tessier | http://www.linux-magazine.com/online/news/... | Mar 27 04:41 |
| tessier | This concerns me. | Mar 27 04:41 |
| tessier | Not that it really matters to Linux security. | Mar 27 04:41 |
| tessier | But it hurts the Linux reputation for security. | Mar 27 04:41 |
| oiaohm | Its not the first Linux infection. | Mar 27 04:42 |
| tessier | Not but it seems to be the biggest. | Mar 27 04:42 |
| tessier | s/Not/No/ | Mar 27 04:42 |
| oiaohm | Its not even the biggest. | Mar 27 04:42 |
| tessier | At least now people can't say Linux isn't targeted because it is so small. | Mar 27 04:43 |
| tessier | You pretty much have to go out of your way to get infected. | Mar 27 04:43 |
| oiaohm | Biggest was a worm that had a anti worm sent after it. | Mar 27 04:43 |
| oiaohm | The clean up worm was the cheese worm. | Mar 27 04:43 |
| tessier | I've never known anyone who got any of these. | Mar 27 04:43 |
| oiaohm | It would be funny if another cheese worm appears. | Mar 27 04:44 |
| oiaohm | And cleans psyb0t up | Mar 27 04:44 |
| oiaohm | Same thing caused it. | Mar 27 04:45 |
| oiaohm | Over confendence in Linux Secuirty. | Mar 27 04:45 |
| oiaohm | Linux is a secure OS if you set the bugger up right. | Mar 27 04:45 |
| oiaohm | Running everything as root as most routers do is not setup right. | Mar 27 04:46 |
| tessier | You have no choice but to run everything as root in that routers do nothing but route packets which all happens in the kernel. | Mar 27 04:48 |
| oiaohm | The web interface to control them tessier? | Mar 27 04:48 |
| tessier | The web interface isn't being exploited. | Mar 27 04:48 |
| tessier | An ssh or telnet on the WAN side with a default password is being exploited. | Mar 27 04:49 |
| oiaohm | Again. | Mar 27 04:49 |
| oiaohm | Normal production systems you don't normally have root as a login. | Mar 27 04:49 |
| oiaohm | From a remote source. | Mar 27 04:49 |
| tessier | Right | Mar 27 04:50 |
| oiaohm | Does not matter how you look at it major reason for the exploit is bad configuration. | Mar 27 04:50 |
| tessier | Right | Mar 27 04:50 |
| oiaohm | The embeded guys have been over due for a wake up call. | Mar 27 04:51 |
| tessier | What can they do about this? | Mar 27 05:08 |
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