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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 28th, 2009 - Part 2


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*mib_5simcr (i=c94433cd@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 28 14:11
schestowitzSardine?Apr 28 14:12
schestowitzIs that the logo?Apr 28 14:12
oiaohmNo the isntaller is 10 megsApr 28 14:12
schestowitzSome of Microsoft's latest failures: 28 14:12
oiaohmYes 10 megs of disk space and it works.Apr 28 14:12
schestowitzSome of Microsoft's latest failures: 28 14:12
oiaohmNice list.Apr 28 14:15
oiaohmNow what would be warped is running a poll on the next prediced MS department to go.Apr 28 14:16
DaemonFCWindows 7 offers nothing of substance over Vista, it seems like everything they're bragging about is also being backportedApr 28 14:16
DaemonFCincluding DirectX 11Apr 28 14:17
DaemonFCso I'm still waiting to see exactly what they say you're buyingApr 28 14:17
DaemonFCthis smells of another Windows MeApr 28 14:17
oiaohmMost likely.Apr 28 14:18
oiaohmFrom the pictures I saw of windows 8 it very much looked like the .net prototype OS ms has been working on.Apr 28 14:18
oiaohmEvery time they do a complete change its a mess.Apr 28 14:19
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DaemonFCwell, the new .Net is being backported, the new DirectX is being backported, the new Windows Media Player is being backported, and the new Internet Explorer HAS been backportedApr 28 14:19
DaemonFCso really what else is there?Apr 28 14:19
DaemonFCoh yeah, and performance is pretty much exactly the sameApr 28 14:20
DaemonFCsounds like they're really selling Windows MojaveApr 28 14:20
DaemonFC:)Apr 28 14:20
oiaohmMS is really in a end game.Apr 28 14:21
oiaohmYou have seen the costs quoted to build Linux.Apr 28 14:21
oiaohmIts a scary ammount of money to build a OS.Apr 28 14:21
oiaohmTruely sorting out windows would eat up a large sections of MS bank account.Apr 28 14:22
DaemonFCno, Vista is a radical departure from XP, and not all of it is bad, but they really soured the deal with the extra DRM and not optimizing any of itApr 28 14:23
DaemonFCproduct activation in XP RTM wasn't really all that invasive and you only had to do it once, but Vista always suspects that you really stole it and are trying to pull a fast oneApr 28 14:24
DaemonFCI think XP's product activation stopped all the "pirates" the thing was every going to stopApr 28 14:25
DaemonFCand Vista's just went entirely too farApr 28 14:25
DaemonFC*everApr 28 14:25
oiaohmXP product activation worries me.Apr 28 14:26
oiaohmWhat will happen at end of life.Apr 28 14:26
DaemonFCMicrosoft has already decided thatApr 28 14:26
DaemonFCthey said before it is end of lifed, they'll provide a tool to remove the product activatorApr 28 14:27
DaemonFCI doubt XP will be of any value on a new system come the middle of 2014Apr 28 14:27
DaemonFCso I don't doubt themApr 28 14:27
schestowitzIs Microsoft Live Dead Yet? 28 14:28
DaemonFCto refuse to reactivate it on a handful of ancient systems that can't run Windows 7/8 at that point would just anger customers and possibly provoke them to not buy Windows next timeApr 28 14:29
DaemonFCso it would make more sense for them to just disable the activator then abandon XPApr 28 14:29
DaemonFCMicrosoft supported Windows 3.1 in some forms til 2005 and I don't see any high demand to "pirate" thatApr 28 14:30
schestowitzRMS would need to wear a suit and say words like "innovation" to be taken seriously :-)Apr 28 14:30
DaemonFCso when they ditch XP it'll be the same age as 3.1 wasApr 28 14:30
schestowitzDaemonFC: is there any real PLAN (lime INNOVA~) for Vista8?Apr 28 14:31
schestowitzOr is it another coat of paint?Apr 28 14:32
schestowitzA la Vista7?Apr 28 14:32
schestowitzNothing about securityApr 28 14:32
schestowitzNothing about advantageApr 28 14:32
schestowitzJust 'newer'Apr 28 14:32
DaemonFCwell, speculation has it that IE 8 will be the last Internet Explorer to use TridentApr 28 14:32
schestowitzMore vapourwareApr 28 14:32
schestowitzMore purchasesApr 28 14:32
DaemonFCapparently they are cooking up something newApr 28 14:32
schestowitzDaemonFC: ie8 is a pigApr 28 14:32
schestowitzresource pigApr 28 14:32
schestowitzNot that I tried, I saw benhiesApr 28 14:32
DaemonFCIE 8 is a lot faster on Vista than XPApr 28 14:32
DaemonFCI'm not just saying that, it isApr 28 14:33
DaemonFCI ran it through Sunspider in XP and vistaApr 28 14:33
DaemonFCit's almsot twice as fast on scripting in VistaApr 28 14:33
DaemonFCthey obviously didn't go through a great deal of trouble to make it work well on XPApr 28 14:33
DaemonFCIE 8 on XP is a bad port, and some of it is really just not there because XP isn't capable, and some of it was left out on purpose even though it would have been trivial to addApr 28 14:35
DaemonFCagain, I don't like IE but some things it does make more sense than say FirefoxApr 28 14:38
DaemonFCFirefox makes it really easy to write a bad add-on that gets no testing and can do all kinds of horrible things to the browserApr 28 14:38
oiaohmWindows 3.11 users run out of applciations for that were modern.Apr 28 14:38
oiaohmXP is showign a lot more staying power than windows 3.11Apr 28 14:39
DaemonFCFirefox add-ons are easier to write so all the substandard add-on writers make add-ons for thatApr 28 14:39
DaemonFCXP really doesn't scale wellApr 28 14:40
DaemonFCthere was a X86-64 version (I have that) but it was never for retail saleApr 28 14:40
DaemonFCso most people never got a copyApr 28 14:40
oiaohmFirefox covered up the interal choas of the javascript with simple to write addons.Apr 28 14:40
DaemonFCif nothing else stops XP, then the bitrot and the no support for more than 2.8 gigs of RAM on a system with a modern video card willApr 28 14:41
oiaohmWith virtualisation to run side by side you don't need it to scale well.Apr 28 14:41
DaemonFCyou really should dig up a copy of the X86-64 version of any OSApr 28 14:41
DaemonFCif the goal is to run well on a modern systemApr 28 14:41
oiaohmI have a copy of XP 64bit and Vista 64 bit.Apr 28 14:41
oiaohmMS registered partner you are talking to.Apr 28 14:42
oiaohmI got them extreamly cheeply.Apr 28 14:42
DaemonFCXP is better for raw performanceApr 28 14:42
DaemonFCVista is better for networking, audio stack, etc.Apr 28 14:42
DaemonFCmultithreading is also much better on Vista than XP can give youApr 28 14:42
DaemonFCbrings me back to XP runs well on old machines because they are old machinesApr 28 14:43
DaemonFCand don't need it to scaleApr 28 14:43
DaemonFCyou're crazy or stupid to really seriously want to run XP on any new system you getApr 28 14:43
oiaohmXP comes on new netbooks.Apr 28 14:44
DaemonFCI'm not wild over Vista, but again, XP does not scaleApr 28 14:44
oiaohmAnd most likely will be still on them until 2012 at least.Apr 28 14:44
DaemonFCif you have an old system I encourage you to stay on XP if you have it and like it because Vista will indeed hurt more than helpApr 28 14:44
twitterso what?Apr 28 14:44
oiaohmSo that means from new machines to end of life is 2 years.Apr 28 14:44
twitterxp on netbooks sucksApr 28 14:44
DaemonFCno, it means that PC's have undergone rapid expansion and XP cannot cope with thatApr 28 14:45
oiaohmWindows 7 is still sucking more on them.Apr 28 14:45
twitterxp on desktops sucks too, but it really sucks on a netbookApr 28 14:45
twittergnu/linux is betterApr 28 14:45
DaemonFCWindows Vista was not designed with netbooks in mindApr 28 14:45
DaemonFCit is far too much for them to handleApr 28 14:45
twitterI'm not sure you could call the way Vista was built "design"Apr 28 14:46
DaemonFCnetbooks have puny 32-bit processors, maybe 1 Ghz, maybe 512 megs of RAMApr 28 14:46
DaemonFCthat really does sound like something from 6-8 years ago on a desktopApr 28 14:46
twitterthis laptop has a puny PIII, Debian works great on it.Apr 28 14:46
twitterwhy would I even think about windows?Apr 28 14:47
DaemonFCwell, on a Pentium 3 that's the least of your worriesApr 28 14:47
DaemonFCI agreeApr 28 14:47
DaemonFC:PApr 28 14:47
DaemonFCI wouldn't really enjoy using anything non-trivial on a Pentium 3Apr 28 14:48
DaemonFCYou can force a copy of Linux on it, but it has to be fairly stripped and contrivedApr 28 14:48
DaemonFCreally no different than throwing an old copy of Windows on it from a performance perspectiveApr 28 14:48
oiaohmPentium 3 is not that slow.Apr 28 14:48
DaemonFCLinux is really too good for a Pentium 3Apr 28 14:49
oiaohmLinux desktops really are bloated.Apr 28 14:49
DaemonFCyou need to lobotomize it to get it to work well cause the hardware can't use any of the new/cool/modern stuffApr 28 14:49
oiaohmNot realyApr 28 14:49
DaemonFCwell, all operating systems are "bloated" more and moreApr 28 14:49
oiaohmPentium3 running xfce is not bad.Apr 28 14:49
DaemonFCthey have to be because the hardware is more capableApr 28 14:49
oiaohmBut common like kde and gnome hurt.Apr 28 14:50
DaemonFCXFCE= My condolencesApr 28 14:50
DaemonFCI tried it and found I got the same performance, but the desktop was far too anemicApr 28 14:50
DaemonFC1 GB RAM is like the price of a take out pizzaApr 28 14:51
DaemonFCit's obscenely cheapApr 28 14:51
oiaohmUbuntu XFCE?  There alterations doubled it ram usage and halfed it speed in placed.Apr 28 14:51
DaemonFCarguing over RAM anymore is basically like complaining about fuel mileage on a car that runs on waterApr 28 14:51
DaemonFCI filled all the sockets just to have itApr 28 14:52
DaemonFCcause it beats having the OS hitting the swap fileApr 28 14:52
oiaohmLower the processor the more important not hitting swap is.Apr 28 14:52
DaemonFCif you have 4 GB of RAM, it'll cost you about $32Apr 28 14:53
DaemonFCand no OS including Vista will easily overrun itApr 28 14:53
oiaohmComputer would is to the stage calulators were a long time ago.Apr 28 14:53
oiaohmRemember they were costly from top to bottom.   These days bottom models are less than 10 dollars for a calulator.Apr 28 14:54
DaemonFCthe time to complain over RAM was 10 years ago, when Windows 98 wanted 64 megs and your Windows 95 system had 16 megs, and the new RAM was about $200Apr 28 14:54
DaemonFC:PApr 28 14:54
oiaohmDifference is now device markers are wanting to bring the entry level price down.Apr 28 14:55
oiaohmSo in 10 years time a entry level machine might be 10 dollars.Apr 28 14:55
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DaemonFCthere's a market flooded with lots of competition and more gadgets than people actually want to buyApr 28 14:55
DaemonFCthe markup is going downApr 28 14:55
DaemonFCand the manufacturing process is more soundApr 28 14:55
DaemonFCevery time you add a competitor, the price goes downApr 28 14:56
oiaohmLower failure rates equal lower manufacturing costs.Apr 28 14:56
DaemonFCif there was 5-6 companies making operating systems and competing fiercelyApr 28 14:56
DaemonFCthe OS would be a $15 afterthought tooApr 28 14:56
oiaohmEmbed Linux price is less than that.Apr 28 14:57
oiaohmYou are lucky to get 5 dollars for a embed OS.Apr 28 14:57
oiaohmWhat is going on is the embeded makers are producing items to compete with desktop makers.Apr 28 14:58
schestowitzMicrosoft uses Linux 28 14:59
schestowitz     >  "<DaemonFC> Vista is better for networking, audio stack, etc."Apr 28 15:00
schestowitzVery much the oppositeApr 28 15:00
DaemonFCXP's audio stack was interrupt driven, not timer driven, it blasted the audio to all possible endpointsApr 28 15:01
DaemonFCit was basically a mess to deal with and introduced artifactsApr 28 15:01
DaemonFCand was totally inappropriate for raw audio editingApr 28 15:02
schestowitzDRM messes things upApr 28 15:02
DaemonFCyeah, well, I don't use files with DRMApr 28 15:02
DaemonFCI said raw audioApr 28 15:02
DaemonFCXP was garbage for thatApr 28 15:03
schestowitzWhy Vista sounds worse < >Apr 28 15:03
oiaohmLinux audio stack is not perfect.Apr 28 15:03
DaemonFCit's obvious that the way the Mac OS handles audio is better because Vista did it, and now ALSA and Pulseaudio are both trying to follow alongApr 28 15:03
DaemonFCand introducing much pain for users of thatApr 28 15:04
twitterUhh, guys, this PIII runs great.  E16 with accelerated video.  It runs everything just fine under Lenny and I used Etch to do my thesis writing.  I'm not sure anyone would call that "stripped down"Apr 28 15:04
oiaohmLinux has a major nightmare in kernel.Apr 28 15:04
oiaohmLack of threaded interperts so you cannot override a incoming interp for audio.Apr 28 15:05
DaemonFCALSA and Pulse both have a lot of bugs, and buggy apps that expect the bugs in current and older versions of Pulse and ALSA don't helpApr 28 15:05
DaemonFCit's cauing users to prefer the 90's style sound system behaviorApr 28 15:05
twitterI have not noticed any of that.  :)Apr 28 15:05
oiaohmPulse audio follows the long tradition of usermode audio server.Apr 28 15:06
oiaohmI hope they give it up soon.Apr 28 15:06
DaemonFCtrying to make Linux into a low latency system period is pretty uglyApr 28 15:06
DaemonFCyou expose a lot of long time bugs that stay hidden so well when the system is not preemptible ;)Apr 28 15:06
DaemonFCit can even disturb device driversApr 28 15:07
DaemonFCand cause them to make the system haltApr 28 15:07
*twitter has quit ("Leaving.")Apr 28 15:08
oiaohmLot of the not preemptible stuff is slowly disappearing.Apr 28 15:08
DaemonFCprogress is being made, but not quickly, even they admit that a lot of it is caused by old code that was not well written and is poorly documentedApr 28 15:08
DaemonFCthat all depends on the big kernel lockApr 28 15:08
oiaohmbig kernel lock is a fairly major bit.Apr 28 15:09
DaemonFCthey rewrote a lot of the ReiserFS file system driver in 2.6.30Apr 28 15:09
oiaohmBut there are others just as bad.Apr 28 15:09
DaemonFCbecause it was either that or ditch itApr 28 15:09
oiaohmInterpet handling is still stone age in Linux.Apr 28 15:10
oiaohmAs more of the real time tree merges things will get better.Apr 28 15:10
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oiaohmThere is also a BLK in the way Linux handles mount and unmounting filesystems.Apr 28 15:12
DaemonFCpeople are trying to make Linux do things it was not intended forApr 28 15:17
DaemonFCTorvalds has a sense of humor about that thoughApr 28 15:18
DaemonFC:PApr 28 15:18
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oiaohmMost of the things that stuff up RT are also stuffing up large servers.Apr 28 15:20
oiaohmSome of the BLK removeds have double performance of massive machines.Apr 28 15:20
DaemonFC 28 15:20
DaemonFC"My connection is 54 Mbps, so it shouldn't be a problem.."Apr 28 15:21
DaemonFCroflApr 28 15:21
oiaohmSeen bigger.Apr 28 15:21
DaemonFCmy connection is 1,000 MBps B-)Apr 28 15:21
DaemonFCcause that's what the adapter says!Apr 28 15:21
DaemonFCidiotsApr 28 15:21
oiaohmI have been on a firber connection 40GBpsApr 28 15:22
oiaohmThat was nice and I miss it.Apr 28 15:22
DaemonFCdear godApr 28 15:23
DaemonFCI can't believe thisApr 28 15:23
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*DaemonFC takes a screenshotApr 28 15:23
DaemonFC 28 15:25
DaemonFCSP2 is not even out yet and they're patching itApr 28 15:25
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mib_pyj2r1never did like the attitude of Mikro$quashApr 28 15:29
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mib_pyj2r1Suse for all it is worth, isn't really that greatApr 28 15:30
mib_pyj2r1started in Red-Hat Fedora, found Debian more to my liking when it would become the only thing that worked on a Sun Ultra boxApr 28 15:31
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schestowitzCharles McCreevy is Still Advancing Software Patents in Europe < >Apr 28 15:32
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DaemonFCoh that's funnyApr 28 15:35
DaemonFCnow my system isn't sayign Evaluation Copy anymoreApr 28 15:35
DaemonFC:PApr 28 15:35
DaemonFC 28 15:39
schestowitzApple and Microsoft for software patents: 28 16:26
DaemonFCschestowitz: I offered to redesign our library's website and audio book system and never heard back from themApr 28 16:29
DaemonFCeven told them I'd do it for freeApr 28 16:29
DaemonFCI wonder if I could file a lawsuit against themApr 28 16:29
schestowitzWhat was their problem?Apr 28 16:30
schestowitzWas it bribed $20 million by Microsoft like the lIb. of Congress?Apr 28 16:30
DaemonFC 28 16:30
DaemonFCusing 1.5 MB 2,204 x 1,364 pixel jpegs for thumbnails?Apr 28 16:30
schestowitzMaps by MicrosoftApr 28 16:30
schestowitz(Expedia)Apr 28 16:30
schestowitzWhat are they, pimps for Ballmer?Apr 28 16:31
DaemonFC<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 4.0">Apr 28 16:31
schestowitz*LOL* 28 16:31
schestowitzSo big, yet so smallApr 28 16:31
schestowitzAnd so slow for modem usersApr 28 16:31
DaemonFCbeen like that for yearsApr 28 16:32
schestowitzOn what basis can one sue them?Apr 28 16:32
DaemonFCI pay taxesApr 28 16:32
schestowitzCrappiness in Web design?Apr 28 16:32
schestowitzDaemonFC: I see.....Apr 28 16:33
DaemonFCthose taxes pay for non-interoperable formats on their siteApr 28 16:33
schestowitzWell, taxes are still lowApr 28 16:33
schestowitzDaemonFC: which formats?Apr 28 16:33
DaemonFCthe supreme court has ruled that you have standing to sue the government as a taxpayerApr 28 16:33
DaemonFCDRM'd WMA audio booksApr 28 16:33
schestowitzWhat books is in their posssession?Apr 28 16:33
DaemonFCFrontpage generated proprietary HTMLApr 28 16:33
schestowitzI always wonder how much selection of books and curriculum can affect perceptionApr 28 16:34
schestowitzPeople's understanding ofd historeyApr 28 16:34
schestowitzNothing about genocide at dawn of the nation, religious zealotry of the founding father and invasion/expansionismApr 28 16:34
DaemonFCthey had no books about any Linux distribution til I turned in a book request for severalApr 28 16:34
DaemonFCMicrosoft sends them Windows/Office training stuff for freeApr 28 16:34
schestowitzEach country  has its share of embarrassment it won't teachApr 28 16:34
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schestowitzPropaganistic perspective of history, to keep kids patriotic and loyal before they are hard to controlApr 28 16:35
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DaemonFCof courseApr 28 16:35
schestowitzThe poll/brainwash cycle.. like a man dipping a foot in a cold pool.Apr 28 16:35
schestowitzDo we have public support for Kuwait?Apr 28 16:36
schestowitzNo?Apr 28 16:36
DaemonFCpublic opinion surveys are almost always push pullsApr 28 16:36
DaemonFCdesigned to make you read their side of the view in a paragraphApr 28 16:36
schestowitzLet's have a girl stage a crying act where we train her to tell lies :-)Apr 28 16:36
schestowitzI only recently found out about it BTWApr 28 16:36
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DaemonFCZogby does that all the timeApr 28 16:36
schestowitzMicrosoft's polls and Novell's too are push pollsApr 28 16:36
schestowitzThey got caughtApr 28 16:36
schestowitzAlso anti-Google pollsApr 28 16:37
schestowitzISO is corrupt too. Push poll for OOXML.Apr 28 16:37
DaemonFC"Given that President Obama wants to raise taxes (On what?) for what has been called unnecessary spending (by Who?), do you agree with him?Apr 28 16:37
DaemonFClolApr 28 16:37
DaemonFCyeah, sureApr 28 16:37
DaemonFCthat's not biaed :PApr 28 16:37
DaemonFC*biasedApr 28 16:37
schestowitzYes, I know the dealApr 28 16:37
schestowitzSome people make a career from that stuffApr 28 16:38
schestowitzMastering the art of art manipulation and cooking financial results/polls/etcApr 28 16:38
_boo_everything is corrupt in this world...Apr 28 16:38
DaemonFCthe Republicans basically want to frame it in your mind as "Obama wants to raise your taxes by 20,000% to give to a newly married interracial gay couple who are burning the American flag and members of Al-Qaeda "Apr 28 16:39
DaemonFCand they'll lie and cheat to make you believe thatApr 28 16:39
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_boo_lolApr 28 16:39
_boo_may be it's like that actually?Apr 28 16:39
DaemonFCmaybe I allege that the Republicans are full of shit?Apr 28 16:40
DaemonFC:)Apr 28 16:40
_boo_noo?Apr 28 16:40
_boo_obama is just less shitty than gore in some casesApr 28 16:40
DaemonFCmaybe they are so unbelievably bad at lying, it proves how many stupid people there are by the fact that they have any support?Apr 28 16:40
_boo_lol, every politician is LYINGApr 28 16:41
_boo_and i spelled LYING in caps on purposeApr 28 16:41
DaemonFCmeh, I feel a lot safer with the Democrats in the majorityApr 28 16:41
_boo_lol, you can't feel yourself safe in this worldApr 28 16:41
DaemonFCthe Republicans have torn down the First, Fourth, and Fifth amendmentsApr 28 16:41
DaemonFCin under 8 yearsApr 28 16:41
DaemonFCand have tried to go after the 14th as wellApr 28 16:42
_boo_what's that amendments?Apr 28 16:42
DaemonFCfreedom of speech, freedom from/of religion (depending on context, the right to be secure in your person or effects (no unwarranted search and seizures), the right to have a fair trial and not be compelled to testify against yourself, the right to representation by legal counselApr 28 16:43
DaemonFCand the supremacy of the Federal government over the statesApr 28 16:43
DaemonFCthey've attacked, viciously, the core principles of the ConstitutionApr 28 16:44
DaemonFCand then have the gall to say they want to protect itApr 28 16:44
_boo_dude, you can't rule a country that has several religions in itApr 28 16:44
DaemonFCbastardsApr 28 16:44
DaemonFC*spits*Apr 28 16:44
_boo_it's just dumbApr 28 16:44
DaemonFCno, the first amendment says the government will not push religion of any kindApr 28 16:45
DaemonFCit establishes that the government is secular and neutralApr 28 16:45
_boo_freedom of speech... that's just lol... EVERY government suppressed it ALWAYSApr 28 16:45
DaemonFCand not to be hijacked by the religious elementsApr 28 16:45
_boo_the government should enforce christianityApr 28 16:45
DaemonFChell noApr 28 16:45
_boo_if it's european or there is majority of whiteApr 28 16:45
DaemonFCI will never be a part of that, I refuse to acknowledge that they have any right to tell me how to liveApr 28 16:45
DaemonFCand if I had my say, they'd be put in a rocket and fired into the sunApr 28 16:46
DaemonFCso they should be glad there are lawsApr 28 16:46
DaemonFC:)Apr 28 16:46
_boo_religion in every country should be only 1Apr 28 16:46
_boo_what do you preferApr 28 16:46
DaemonFCEqual Protection anyone?Apr 28 16:46
_boo_christianity or islam?Apr 28 16:47
DaemonFCdue process?Apr 28 16:47
DaemonFCI went to the hospital once and they asked me if I had a religious preference, I told them "Yes, I prefer they never invented any such thing"Apr 28 16:47
DaemonFC:PApr 28 16:47
_boo_you don't even imagine what the world will look like if they never invented such thingApr 28 16:48
DaemonFCwe'd be at least several hundred years more advancedApr 28 16:48
DaemonFCtechnologicallyApr 28 16:48
_boo_nopeApr 28 16:49
_boo_this world won't even exist XDApr 28 16:49
DaemonFCthey murdered scientists for hundreds of yearsApr 28 16:49
DaemonFCburnt them at the stakeApr 28 16:49
DaemonFCcrucified themApr 28 16:49
_boo_side effectsApr 28 16:49
_boo_people were just not ready yetApr 28 16:49
DaemonFCreligious oppression is responsible for most of the bad things in this worldApr 28 16:49
DaemonFCit's still entirely man-madeApr 28 16:49
_boo_nopeApr 28 16:49
_boo_side effects are man-implementedApr 28 16:49
DaemonFCyou don't want to know what the world would be like without Santa Claus or the Easter BunnyApr 28 16:50
DaemonFCoh wait....Apr 28 16:50
DaemonFC:PApr 28 16:50
_boo_they are nothingApr 28 16:50
DaemonFCsame as this god fellowApr 28 16:50
_boo_nope?Apr 28 16:50
DaemonFCentirely a work of fictionApr 28 16:50
DaemonFCfor simple little minds :)Apr 28 16:50
_boo_you just don't wanna know himApr 28 16:51
DaemonFCtell you whatApr 28 16:51
DaemonFCtell him I'm in the phone bookApr 28 16:51
_boo_and yeah... there are plenty of little minds with religion or notApr 28 16:51
DaemonFCgive me a call and say "Hey, this is God, I exist"Apr 28 16:51
_boo_lolApr 28 16:51
DaemonFCor maybe work some crowds with fish and bread?Apr 28 16:51
DaemonFCI doubt itApr 28 16:51
_boo_you're not capable to do thatApr 28 16:52
DaemonFCI pray to Joe PesciApr 28 16:52
DaemonFCsame 50% success ratioApr 28 16:52
_boo_who's datApr 28 16:52
_boo_XDApr 28 16:52
DaemonFC 28 16:53
DaemonFCheheApr 28 16:53
_boo_you don't even imagine what darkness itApr 28 16:53
_boo_isApr 28 16:53
_boo_and it still goes allright with the god :)Apr 28 16:54
DaemonFCblah blah blahApr 28 16:54
DaemonFCanyway, I need to take a leakApr 28 16:54
DaemonFCJeebus be with youApr 28 16:55
DaemonFC:PApr 28 16:55
_boo_i'm not yet ready to leakApr 28 16:55
_boo_not enough gin-tonic drunkApr 28 16:55
DaemonFC 28 16:56
_boo_XDApr 28 16:56
_boo_black cats are coolApr 28 16:57
schestowitzIt rurns out we made FP of Reddit yesterday: 28 16:59
_boo_wtf...Apr 28 17:01
_boo_debian is saneApr 28 17:01
_boo_i even installed it into my mostly windows-insanity boxApr 28 17:01
_boo_to keep things balancedApr 28 17:02
_boo_lol... m$ novellApr 28 17:03
schestowitzI've just posted about Obamaa[sic]'s pick from Microsoft: 28 17:04
DaemonFCschestowitz: I used to be a manager at Walmart, I used to be a manager at Rent-A-CenterApr 28 17:04
_boo_XD "Microsoft Linux is now being called Windows 8."Apr 28 17:04
DaemonFCif I took a job after that does that make me a spy or a shill?Apr 28 17:04
DaemonFCthe guy that worked at Microsoft worked at Microsoft cause he was getting a paycheck, it's a job, and he needed a jobApr 28 17:05
_boo_noooApr 28 17:05
_boo_he needed moneyApr 28 17:05
DaemonFCI wouldn't say that automatically makes him a suspectApr 28 17:05
_boo_not a jobApr 28 17:05
_boo_yupApr 28 17:05
schestowitzg2g bblApr 28 17:06
_boo_he's overaddicted to m$ <-- suspectApr 28 17:06
DaemonFCthere's arguments for closed source software as wellApr 28 17:06
DaemonFCneither model is perfect, both have benefitsApr 28 17:06
_boo_arguments?Apr 28 17:07
_boo_do you want software to be closed source?Apr 28 17:07
_boo_DO YOU WANT software to be closed source? (to put it in another words)Apr 28 17:07
DaemonFCwell, if Microsoft dropped DRM, got rid of "activation", and charged a fair price, it would get rid of most of my disgust of themApr 28 17:07
_boo_lolApr 28 17:08
_boo_you're living in a fictional worldApr 28 17:08
_boo_just like meApr 28 17:08
DaemonFC90% of my problem with Microsoft is in those three thingsApr 28 17:08
_boo_but mine is medievalApr 28 17:08
DaemonFCnot really cause I care about their source codeApr 28 17:08
trmancohi allApr 28 17:08
_boo_lolApr 28 17:09
_boo_hiApr 28 17:09
DaemonFCOK, lets imagine Windows Vista had no DRM for anything, no activation, and cost $50Apr 28 17:09
_boo_it's easy to care about source code when there's noneApr 28 17:09
DaemonFCI think you'd see a lot of complaints agaisnt them go awayApr 28 17:09
_boo_mkay, it has no payments and drm and activationApr 28 17:10
_boo_only complaints?Apr 28 17:10
DaemonFCsource code is not necessarily something that most people have any reason to care aboutApr 28 17:10
_boo_lolApr 28 17:10
_boo_yet another lolApr 28 17:10
DaemonFCyou can give yourself a hair cut in the mirror for free, but most people would rather pay a barber $10Apr 28 17:11
DaemonFCwouldn't you agree?Apr 28 17:11
_boo_i don't pay a barberApr 28 17:11
DaemonFCjust an exampleApr 28 17:11
_boo_my hair are longApr 28 17:11
DaemonFCthere's nothing wrong with paying someone else to do something for youApr 28 17:12
_boo_and it's 4$ payment hereApr 28 17:12
_boo_noooo?Apr 28 17:12
DaemonFCwhat is wrong is this system of DRM and patentsApr 28 17:12
_boo_you did the wrong thingApr 28 17:12
_boo_completely wrong exampleApr 28 17:12
_boo_i think that every1 should make anything concerned with himself himselfApr 28 17:13
DaemonFCI'd say that buying closed source software in itself is no more unethical than buying a pre-assembled carApr 28 17:13
_boo_unless it's not personalApr 28 17:13
DaemonFCor a pre-assembled houseApr 28 17:13
DaemonFCor a bottle of soda that you don't know how to make yourselfApr 28 17:13
_boo_DaemonFCApr 28 17:13
_boo_i think quite differentApr 28 17:13
_boo_it's like buying a jewel hand madeApr 28 17:14
_boo_but it SHOULD BE JEWELApr 28 17:14
_boo_NOT YET ANOTHER SHIT!Apr 28 17:14
_boo_to make moneyApr 28 17:14
DaemonFCdo I have the expertise or the time or the will to debug an OS I built from source?Apr 28 17:14
DaemonFCmaybe, but I bet most people don'tApr 28 17:14
DaemonFCor treat it as a hobbyApr 28 17:14
_boo_nopeApr 28 17:15
DaemonFCor just don't have any reason to careApr 28 17:15
_boo_and you don'tApr 28 17:15
_boo_you can't expertise linux kernelApr 28 17:15
DaemonFCusing Ubuntu is no different from Windows on that levelApr 28 17:15
_boo_nope?Apr 28 17:15
DaemonFCin that someone else sends you binary blobs and you just passively install themApr 28 17:15
_boo_you just can't distinguishApr 28 17:15
_boo_dude, there're addicted source hackersApr 28 17:16
DaemonFCyou're along for the ride, not steering anythingApr 28 17:16
_boo_idk what that meansApr 28 17:16
DaemonFCif they decide to do something incredibly stupid, you can switch operating systemsApr 28 17:16
DaemonFCor live with itApr 28 17:16
_boo_yupApr 28 17:17
_boo_DaemonFC, i'm not completely against windowsApr 28 17:17
_boo_it should exist, but with 5% shareApr 28 17:17
DaemonFCWindows exists now for the same reason people bought it vs. proprietary UNIXApr 28 17:18
DaemonFCin 1990Apr 28 17:18
DaemonFCtoo many varieties of Linux, all with different bugs, all with different implementation gaps and configuration settings, support options, and levels of incompatibility with one anotherApr 28 17:19
_boo_and wtf?Apr 28 17:19
_boo_and not unixApr 28 17:19
_boo_mac os ratherApr 28 17:19
DaemonFCsame deal with proprietary UNIX 20 years agoApr 28 17:19
_boo_no?Apr 28 17:19
DaemonFCthe problem is the sameApr 28 17:19
_boo_o nope?Apr 28 17:19
DaemonFCthat Linux is a loosely defined conceptApr 28 17:19
_boo_that's lousy to sayApr 28 17:19
DaemonFCthere is no authority on it, and if there is, it's a matter of who you want to listen toApr 28 17:20
trmancowell, I would love to see any windows version run 100% with it's own generic driversApr 28 17:20
DaemonFCand consortium's and committees give us things like OpenGL 3Apr 28 17:20
_boo_it won't and it will not even deal with multimediaApr 28 17:20
DaemonFCyears late and features strippedApr 28 17:20
_boo_lol, there should not be closed source dxApr 28 17:21
DaemonFCDirectX has advanced because only one place can decide what it will beApr 28 17:21
DaemonFCnot dozens of companies slugging it outApr 28 17:21
_boo_people who make sw for it should be just brainwashedApr 28 17:21
DaemonFCreducing it to the lowest common denominatorApr 28 17:21
_boo_but dudeApr 28 17:22
_boo_will it be better if there's a standardApr 28 17:22
DaemonFCOpenGL 3 is a shell of what it was supposed to beApr 28 17:22
DaemonFCyears lateApr 28 17:22
DaemonFCwith no real incentives to use itApr 28 17:22
DaemonFCyou had the CAD people against the video game companiesApr 28 17:22
_boo_STANDARD?Apr 28 17:22
_boo_there should be more than 1 STANDARDApr 28 17:22
_boo_at least 2Apr 28 17:22
_boo_BUT they should be OPENApr 28 17:23
DaemonFCyeah, just as soon as many people with incompatible objectives tel lyou what the new standard isApr 28 17:23
DaemonFCyou can go ahead and use a safe and portable subset of itApr 28 17:23
_boo_COMPLETELYApr 28 17:23
_boo_dude, if you can make a jewel, make itApr 28 17:23
_boo_and it should not be prohibitedApr 28 17:23
DaemonFCthat's what I'm saying ,there is one OpenGL "standard", but there's so many people fighting over control of the steering wheelApr 28 17:23
_boo_but dx is no jewelApr 28 17:23
DaemonFCNvidia and ATI are in the back screaming "Are we there yet?" and kicking the seatApr 28 17:24
DaemonFC:PApr 28 17:24
DaemonFCand that's what caused the OpenGL 3 suckfestApr 28 17:24
_boo_i think that ati is kicking nvidiaApr 28 17:24
DaemonFCnahApr 28 17:24
DaemonFCATI has no hardware that goodApr 28 17:24
DaemonFCtheirs doesn't even support CUDS or Physics processingApr 28 17:25
_boo_REALLY?Apr 28 17:25
DaemonFCATI is at least a generation behind NvidiaApr 28 17:25
DaemonFC*CUDAApr 28 17:25
_boo_cuda is nvidiaApr 28 17:25
_boo_ati has smth elseApr 28 17:25
_boo_i don't remember the nameApr 28 17:25
DaemonFCand they use the documented slow and buggy Direct Rendering Manager in XApr 28 17:25
DaemonFCwhich is another $20,000 toilet seat in itselfApr 28 17:25
_boo_dude, ati was cheaper when i bought some hd4870Apr 28 17:26
DaemonFCthat's my point, you either deal with an evil monopoly, or compromised standards that are all done by committee and leave huge chunks undefined\Apr 28 17:26
DaemonFCyeah, they have to be cheaperApr 28 17:26
DaemonFCcause that's kind of all they haveApr 28 17:26
_boo_and it performed much better than corresponding nvidiasApr 28 17:27
_boo_lolApr 28 17:27
_boo_DaemonFC, you're still dealing with proprietarityApr 28 17:27
*mib_cnw2kz (i=3c35c4f8@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 28 17:27
*DaemonFC still likes having a combined GPU/PPSU with full DirectX 10.1 and OpenGL 3 complianceApr 28 17:27
*mib_cnw2kz has quit (Client Quit)Apr 28 17:27
DaemonFC*PPUApr 28 17:27
_boo_what's datApr 28 17:28
trmancohttp://blogs.techrepubli...Apr 28 17:28
DaemonFCATI is still selling DirectX 10.0/OpenGL 2 hardware with no Physics Processing UnitApr 28 17:28
_boo_it has that unitApr 28 17:28
_boo_PhysXApr 28 17:28
DaemonFCwhich is why I said, they're cheap because they sell substandard partsApr 28 17:28
DaemonFCI can go buy vulcanized rubber pulleys to replace aluminum ones on my carApr 28 17:29
DaemonFCthey're half the price because they're not good partsApr 28 17:29
_boo_what's alluminium pulleys?Apr 28 17:29
DaemonFCshouting "It's cheap, it's cheap" doesn't help me really defend the reason I bought themApr 28 17:29
DaemonFCtensioner and idler pulleysApr 28 17:29
DaemonFCthey make aftermarket ones out of vulcanized rubber or heat tempered plasticApr 28 17:30
_boo_idk what even pulleys meanApr 28 17:30
DaemonFCthey're no good, but they cost lessApr 28 17:30
DaemonFCmy point is that if it's cheap just because of a price war, go for it, but if it's cheap because it's cheap, then you may not want toApr 28 17:30
DaemonFC:PApr 28 17:31
_boo_like dudeApr 28 17:31
_boo_i won't buy amdApr 28 17:31
_boo_but ati makes senseApr 28 17:31
_boo_none of my compys were amdApr 28 17:32
_boo_they were almost always losing to meApr 28 17:32
*DaemonFC goes for Intel/NvidiaApr 28 17:32
DaemonFCanyway, brbApr 28 17:32
_boo_nopeApr 28 17:32
_boo_nvidia or atiApr 28 17:32
_boo_depends on current stateApr 28 17:32
_boo_do you use cuda, DaemonFC?Apr 28 17:33
_boo_do you really think that physx matters much for 1 year at least already and 2 more?Apr 28 17:34
trmancovery strange firefox review -> 28 17:56
_boo_dude, idk what you're even talking about about ati vs nvidiaApr 28 17:57
_boo_like 9800 gx2 is worse than even ati 3870x2Apr 28 17:58
_boo_i like how firefox updatesApr 28 17:58
_boo_it's lightweightApr 28 17:58
_boo_and i don't have to visit some very untrusted to update browserApr 28 17:59
_boo_trmanco, didn't you TRY TO IMAGINEApr 28 18:00
_boo_that ff 3.0.10 is releasyApr 28 18:01
_boo_and 3.5b4 is debuggyApr 28 18:01
trmancowhat do you mean?Apr 28 18:01
_boo_i mean that depending on algorithms usedApr 28 18:01
_boo_and they are not linear most likelyApr 28 18:01
_boo_you can experience even less pretty resultsApr 28 18:02
*DaemonFC is on Opera again for the time beingApr 28 18:02
_boo_DaemonFC is a drunkApr 28 18:03
_boo_i only use opera to play gladiatus online browser gameApr 28 18:03
_boo_with a different ipApr 28 18:03
DaemonFCOpera/9.64 (Windows NT 6.0; U; en) Presto/2.1.1Apr 28 18:03
DaemonFCthere's kind of a shortage of decent browsers, (not to be confused with a shortage OF browsers)Apr 28 18:04
_boo_decent browsers...Apr 28 18:06
DaemonFCyou've got IE and I don't want to write an essay on why I hate it, you have Firefox (likewise), you've got Safari which has basically no extensions on Windows and requires Quicktime for media which pulls in iTunes and installs bizarre Windows servicesApr 28 18:06
_boo_dude, i like konqueror, epiphanyApr 28 18:06
DaemonFCyou have Chrome if you don't mind complete minimalism and trust GoogleApr 28 18:06
_boo_ffApr 28 18:06
_boo_what:/Apr 28 18:07
_boo_what???Apr 28 18:07
_boo_i trust google?Apr 28 18:07
_boo_it's about yaApr 28 18:07
_boo_i only trust google when it comes to jobApr 28 18:07
_boo_they won't steal it XDApr 28 18:07
DaemonFCthen of course there's Opera which is probably the most well-rounded and definitely the most standards-compliantApr 28 18:07
DaemonFC(and fastest in some ways)Apr 28 18:07
_boo_not fastestApr 28 18:08
_boo_but it's goodApr 28 18:08
DaemonFCwell, Firefox is a resource hog, that's my problemApr 28 18:08
_boo_resource hog?Apr 28 18:08
DaemonFCa web browser should not be taking 500 megs of RAM to simply have a few tabs openApr 28 18:08
DaemonFCand it's sprung more security leaks than IE, Opera, and Safari put togetherApr 28 18:08
_boo_few tabs... 500mbsApr 28 18:09
_boo_lolApr 28 18:09
_boo_DaemonFC, i use ff to go through ANY siteApr 28 18:09
_boo_and i don't get infectedApr 28 18:09
DaemonFCseriously, I think the Mozilla people.....tell me what I have to smoke to put something together that backwardsApr 28 18:09
_boo_and i don't have to visit windows updatesApr 28 18:10
DaemonFCright, you get your updates through Ubuntu's systemApr 28 18:10
DaemonFC:PApr 28 18:10
DaemonFCwhich is just an appletApr 28 18:10
_boo_lol, i'm in winxp pro sp2 x64 right nowApr 28 18:10
DaemonFCbecause Firefox is part of their OSApr 28 18:10
DaemonFC?Apr 28 18:10
DaemonFC:)Apr 28 18:10
_boo_and i didn't pay for itApr 28 18:11
_boo_^ the only reason why i use itApr 28 18:11
DaemonFCmost people that have XP X64 did not buy itApr 28 18:11
DaemonFC:)Apr 28 18:11
_boo_lolApr 28 18:11
_boo_i will not ever buy m$ productApr 28 18:11
_boo_and i never didApr 28 18:11
DaemonFCI have before but ou have to go back to like Windows Me to fiund anything I boughtApr 28 18:12
DaemonFCand that was a $20 promotional upgrade :PApr 28 18:12
_boo_wtfApr 28 18:12
_boo_i won't EVER pay money to m$Apr 28 18:12
_boo_and never did (again)Apr 28 18:12
DaemonFCwell, that was 9 years agoApr 28 18:12
DaemonFCand til XP was out, there was no product activator and I had never heard of DRMApr 28 18:13
DaemonFCmuch less seen itApr 28 18:13
DaemonFC:PApr 28 18:13
*tessier_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Apr 28 18:13
_boo_9 yoApr 28 18:13
_boo_they raped yaApr 28 18:13
_boo_lolApr 28 18:13
_boo_he never heard of drmApr 28 18:13
_boo_wasn't it always around?Apr 28 18:13
DaemonFCnoApr 28 18:14
_boo_it's just with m$ you felt it with your ass pretty hardApr 28 18:14
_boo_'cause m$ rapesApr 28 18:14
DaemonFCWindows didn't even support DRM til 2000 and you never even saw anything using it for a couple years after thatApr 28 18:14
DaemonFCDRM is a fairly recent thingApr 28 18:15
_boo_yeah, they were uncapable of implementing drmApr 28 18:15
_boo_just not enough brainsApr 28 18:15
_boo_but they wished itApr 28 18:15
DaemonFCnot incapable of it, they just never planned on needing itApr 28 18:15
DaemonFCWindows 98 predated DVDApr 28 18:15
_boo_ohhh yeaaahApr 28 18:15
DaemonFCand digital music file sharingApr 28 18:16
_boo_w98 and dvd are not compatibleApr 28 18:16
DaemonFCso nobody ever decided "Hey, we can sell this stuff in an online store and copy protect it"Apr 28 18:16
DaemonFCno, you can play DVD on 98Apr 28 18:16
DaemonFCor 95Apr 28 18:16
DaemonFCVLC still works on Windows 95Apr 28 18:16
DaemonFChehApr 28 18:16
_boo_dude... copy protect... drm... all that kinds of things make me pukeApr 28 18:17
_boo_i can't even argueApr 28 18:17
DaemonFCI said it predates the hardware, not that it was incompatibleApr 28 18:17
_boo_predates...Apr 28 18:17
DaemonFCwhen 98 was in development, it wasn't even clear DVD would sell wellApr 28 18:17
DaemonFCand the players were like $600Apr 28 18:18
DaemonFCand the movies were about $30Apr 28 18:18
DaemonFCand the blank discs were $20 eachApr 28 18:18
_boo_lolApr 28 18:18
DaemonFCthere really wasn't a huge piracy ordeal in the making there :PApr 28 18:18
_boo_$20 blank disks???????Apr 28 18:18
DaemonFCmmhmApr 28 18:18
DaemonFC$20 for ONE BLANK  DVDApr 28 18:19
DaemonFCyes, you heard meApr 28 18:19
_boo_$30 moooooovieeees?Apr 28 18:19
_boo_$600 for PLAAAYYEERSS?Apr 28 18:19
DaemonFCmmhmApr 28 18:19
DaemonFCyupApr 28 18:19
DaemonFCrecorders cost about $1,000Apr 28 18:19
_boo_you're definitely living in a different worldApr 28 18:19
DaemonFCand were the size of a tankApr 28 18:19
DaemonFCnow anything can record them, a drive is $20, and a movie is $5Apr 28 18:20
DaemonFCblanks are $10 for 30 discsApr 28 18:20
_boo_hm... $5Apr 28 18:20
_boo_noApr 28 18:20
_boo_i won't buy itApr 28 18:20
DaemonFCyeahApr 28 18:20
_boo_everything that i could buy recentlyApr 28 18:20
_boo_was house m.d.Apr 28 18:20
DaemonFCthat's what Blu Ray is for, DRM mainlyApr 28 18:20
_boo_and if it included russian versions of not yet released episodesApr 28 18:20
DaemonFCbut the players for Blu Ray and HD-DVD, in 2005Apr 28 18:21
DaemonFCabout $600Apr 28 18:21
DaemonFC$30 moviesApr 28 18:21
DaemonFC$20 for a blank discApr 28 18:21
_boo_blu-rayApr 28 18:21
_boo_people won't use blu-rayApr 28 18:21
_boo_i'm not buying blu-rayApr 28 18:21
DaemonFC20 miles to the store in the snowApr 28 18:21

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