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Case Study: The Harms of Mono

The following chat took place 2 hours ago. Someone who goes by the name "IsBob" shared his story. Here are the unedited logs, which are hopefully as self-explanatory as they need be.

*IsBob () has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:01
splosion hereJun 16 11:01
IsBobhi thereJun 16 11:01
DaemonMDVyou know that Ubuntu has used a DMCA Take Down order once?Jun 16 11:02
DaemonMDVironically it was used against the MPAAJun 16 11:02
DaemonMDVso I'm all for itJun 16 11:02
*fewa has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Jun 16 11:03
DaemonMDVthe MPAA was distributing a "University anti-piracy toolkit" which used Xubuntu as its baseJun 16 11:03
DaemonMDVin violation of the GPLJun 16 11:03
DaemonMDVso Ubuntu ordered them to remove it from their siteJun 16 11:03
DaemonMDVwhich they didJun 16 11:03
IsBobI’m looking for some adviceJun 16 11:04
IsBobmy boss asked me (not directly of course) to make some public statements about MonoJun 16 11:04
IsBobwe’re in a deal with Microsoft currentlyJun 16 11:04
IsBobthe idea is to help a client migrate from Mono to pure .NETJun 16 11:05
IsBoband well, they found the ongoing fuss about Mono is not helping our company’s imageJun 16 11:05
IsBobthe fact is, I'm not comfortable with doing such thingsJun 16 11:06
schestowitzHi, IsBob Jun 16 11:06
schestowitzWhat advice do you need?Jun 16 11:07
schestowitzAnd how do I know that you're not pulling our leg?Jun 16 11:07
IsBobhuh?Jun 16 11:07
schestowitzWe've been trolled a lot recentlyJun 16 11:07
IsBobMy problem is, I'm in an untenable position nowJun 16 11:07
schestowitzSo I am being cautiousJun 16 11:07
schestowitzA company using Mono does not have a problemJun 16 11:08
IsBobI've made some public statements about Mono and how Microsoft intends to use itJun 16 11:08
schestowitzNot in the sense of public imageJun 16 11:08
schestowitzThe issue is with packagers who want to force people to spread itJun 16 11:08
schestowitzNot with usersJun 16 11:08
IsBoband now, either I have to rescind them, or I risk being in a very bad position with my managementJun 16 11:08
*mib_q79ffb has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Jun 16 11:08
schestowitzMicrosoft spreads its APIJun 16 11:09
schestowitzMono is good for MicrosoftJun 16 11:09
schestowitzFor more than one reasonJun 16 11:09
IsBobI know all of that, I've seen it from the insideJun 16 11:09
schestowitzit is preferable to use Java, Python, Perl, CGI, etc.Jun 16 11:09
schestowitzDepending on the area of useJun 16 11:09
schestowitzMono is about monocultureJun 16 11:09
schestowitzMaking all enterprise do it the One Microsoft WayJun 16 11:10
schestowitzc#, AD, VS, XAML, erc.Jun 16 11:10
schestowitz*etcJun 16 11:10
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:10
schestowitzHi, oiaohm Jun 16 11:12
IsBobschestowitz: I've tried to explain that to my management; we used to have our clients work on free software, and now we're stuck in a deal where we're making them migrate awayJun 16 11:14
oiaohmHi schestowitzJun 16 11:15
schestowitzIsBob: how deep is this dependency on Mono?Jun 16 11:16
*Tallken (n=f2f93bf5@2001:690:2380:7770:21b:24ff:fed0:3f98) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:17
schestowitzIf it's some C# code, then you can still port to JavaJun 16 11:17
schestowitzOracle is very committed to JavaJun 16 11:17
schestowitzIt's one of the main reasons for oracle buying SUN. I read last year that Ellison wanted to rip .NET apartJun 16 11:17
IsBobthere are 500 kloc already, it's way too late to migrate to another languageJun 16 11:18
schestowitzOracle is about as big as Microsoft and its market cap is not muchly shy. In fact, Oracle just deliberately spends a lot less on marketing...Jun 16 11:18
IsBobbut anyway, that's not my problem right nowJun 16 11:18
schestowitzIsBob: what's running it? Mono?Jun 16 11:19
schestowitzMono is a ramp for VS+.NET adoptionJun 16 11:19
schestowitzMono too slow?Jun 16 11:19
schestowitzMigrate to .NETJun 16 11:19
schestowitzLike free supperJun 16 11:19
IsBobcurrently Mono, and we're migrating to .Net yesJun 16 11:19
schestowitzOr trial versionwareJun 16 11:19
*mib_v1wqax (i=4e965300@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:19
schestowitzOracle might do something similar with mysqlJun 16 11:19
IsBobmy problem is about my management wanting me to do public statements I disagree withJun 16 11:20
schestowitzWhy migrate to .NET? I'm curious.Jun 16 11:20
oiaohmIsBob: remember this year websites that can run ofline is coming.Jun 16 11:20
IsBobI'm not sure why, since M$ made a deal with our client they've been pretty elusive about thatJun 16 11:21
oiaohmI am looking at it for a lot of client side work internal.  OS netural and will need nothering more than a Upto date webbrowser installed.Jun 16 11:21
IsBobone of my co-workers suspects they paid a big trip to Hawaii for some of the managers of our clientJun 16 11:21
schestowitzIsBob: so you think they might come to them and say "look, you're using our IP and all, so either you pay or move to .NET?"Jun 16 11:21
schestowitzIsBob: yes, Microsoft gifts peopleJun 16 11:22
schestowitzIt's a form of bribeJun 16 11:22
IsBobclearlyJun 16 11:22
schestowitzCommon. Many examples in MS'c aseJun 16 11:22
schestowitz*MS'sJun 16 11:22
IsBobI don't think they might do it, i think they already didJun 16 11:22
schestowitzMono is a rampJun 16 11:22
IsBobassorted with a nice "gift"Jun 16 11:22
oiaohmYou are aware as of yet mono does not work on arm and mips.Jun 16 11:22
schestowitzhad they used Java, migration would be complicatedJun 16 11:22
schestowitzBut this is EEE - embrace, extend...Jun 16 11:23
oiaohmSo clients are being locked out of furture more power effective client options IsBobJun 16 11:23
oiaohmThere are technical issues with mono.Jun 16 11:23
oiaohmThat can be targetted avoiding the complete IP issue.Jun 16 11:24
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DaemonMDV 16 11:24
DaemonMDVThe guy buys 2,419 DRM'd 129k tracksJun 16 11:25
*mib_kcgay0 has quit (Client Quit)Jun 16 11:25
IsBobmy N+2 ordered a complete blackout about what happened, and we're strongly "encouraged" to publish things that will increase Mono's acceptanceJun 16 11:25
DaemonMDVthen complains that he was cheated when Apple wants more money to upgrade him to what he should have had in the first placeJun 16 11:25
DaemonMDV(256k no DRM)Jun 16 11:25
schestowitzIsBob: encouraged by whom?Jun 16 11:25
schestowitzNovell? Microsoft?Jun 16 11:26
IsBobby our managementJun 16 11:26
DaemonMDVdear god, if he has $2500 to spend on iTunes tracks, you'd think 30 cents apiece would be easy to fork overJun 16 11:26
DaemonMDV:PJun 16 11:26
IsBobnot sure who's behindJun 16 11:26
IsBobof course we already have a big contract with NovellJun 16 11:26
schestowitzIt's the same with MS/Novell cotnractsJun 16 11:26
schestowitzI know cause I was toldJun 16 11:26
IsBoband they probably don't want to have to renegociate itJun 16 11:26
schestowitzThey go to clients...Jun 16 11:26
splosionbe a whistleblower. this is the sort of thing wikileaks was invented forJun 16 11:26
schestowitzAnd they tell them to put "IP" in the press releasesJun 16 11:26
schestowitzAs in, we'll sell you SUSE coupons at a discount is you publicly promote theseJun 16 11:27
DaemonMDVyeah, of course you will no doubt be fired if they figure out it was youJun 16 11:27
schestowitzI.e. promote 'Linux tax' (MS patentsJun 16 11:27
IsBobsplosion: I'm pretty sure I could be identified very quickly if anything leaksJun 16 11:27
schestowitzFor a bribeJun 16 11:27
DaemonMDV(goes without saying)Jun 16 11:27
IsBobI already made some statements against Mono and M$ in the pastJun 16 11:27
oiaohmDoes not matter really IsBob.  IBM is gearing up to go after the Small business market with Linux.Jun 16 11:27
schestowitzsplosion: +1Jun 16 11:27
splosionIsBob: bummerJun 16 11:27
DaemonMDVEasy URPMI is still not back upJun 16 11:28
DaemonMDVoddJun 16 11:28
oiaohmBasically your bosses should be asking who is going to win.   IBM and Orcale or MS.Jun 16 11:28
DaemonMDVbut shows how much people depend on less than legal stuffJun 16 11:28
DaemonMDVfrankly it kind of sickens me that Vorbis is free and hardly anything uses itJun 16 11:29
schestowitzSo basically, Microsoft lets Linux embrace .NETJun 16 11:29
schestowitzThen it can start shouting "IP"  and "thieves" and offer .NET (Windows only)Jun 16 11:29
schestowitzIt's so predictableJun 16 11:29
oiaohmBoth Orcale and IBM have cards in play schestowitz.Jun 16 11:29
oiaohmAs with all battles there are some wins and some losses.Jun 16 11:30
DaemonMDVI found out this Sansa thing is a PlaysForSure deviceJun 16 11:30
DaemonMDVprobably why it's so unfriendly with non-Microsoft media players trying to sync itJun 16 11:30
oiaohmIn the scale of importance a few wins here and there for .net are not going to help MS long term.Jun 16 11:30
IsBobschestowitz: so I will probably have to make public statements about Mono soonJun 16 11:31
IsBoband I wonder how many of the similar statements we've seen recently have been made by people in the same situationJun 16 11:31
oiaohmCan you still cover emerging techs IsBobJun 16 11:31
oiaohmlike vala from gnome and state of samba.Jun 16 11:31
schestowitzIsBob: bought opinionsJun 16 11:32
schestowitzMicrosoft does lots of itJun 16 11:32
schestowitzE.g. Tesco example from last week in BNJun 16 11:32
schestowitzASUS' fake "Windows is better"Jun 16 11:32
schestowitz"vendor recommends Vista" (Microsoft bribes for this too)Jun 16 11:32
oiaohmCreativity the say not to say anything bad against mono.   There is nothing stopping talking about the competing techs.Jun 16 11:32
DaemonMDVof course it is, you know just what to expect out of itJun 16 11:32
DaemonMDV*cough*Jun 16 11:32
schestowitz"We're interested in IP peace of mind" (not exact quote)Jun 16 11:32
schestowitzBut I never expected better from a company of thugsJun 16 11:33
schestowitzBribing people to utters marketing liesJun 16 11:33
IsBobI wonder whether similar things are happening at Canonical, given their recent movesJun 16 11:33
schestowitzAnd later they point to it..Jun 16 11:33
schestowitzAnd say...Jun 16 11:33
DaemonMDVschestowitz: According to Alexa's site rank, almost every Linux-related site is going upJun 16 11:33
schestowitz"Look, Dell recommends Vista"Jun 16 11:33
DaemonMDVbut has gone down over 5%Jun 16 11:33
schestowitzand "HP recommends Vista"Jun 16 11:33
DaemonMDVin this quarterJun 16 11:33
schestowitzAnd "everyone loves Mono"Jun 16 11:34
DaemonMDVdespite all the Windows 7 blitzJun 16 11:34
schestowitz"Lyons and Enderle and Didio say that SCO is going to win the trial"Jun 16 11:34
schestowitzDon't get me started on the Vista7 slogJun 16 11:34
schestowitzThey bribe bloggersJun 16 11:34
schestowitzThey bribe journalistsJun 16 11:34
DaemonMDVit still dwarfs any Linux distro's website hitsJun 16 11:34
schestowitzAnd they attack those who say the truth Jun 16 11:34
DaemonMDVbut it is on the way downJun 16 11:34
oiaohmAre those hits counting windows update DaemonMDVJun 16 11:35
schestowitzIt plays dirttyJun 16 11:35
schestowitz[on its way down]Jun 16 11:35
DaemonMDVwell, that's not good for them, that their site is getting less popular despite so much advertisingJun 16 11:35
DaemonMDVnoJun 16 11:35
DaemonMDVonly browsersJun 16 11:35 is the 18th most trafficked site in the United StatesJun 16 11:36
IsBobit pains me to see all of that because I'm exactly in the same situation, with hands tiedJun 16 11:36
DaemonMDVUbuntu was like 2400-somethingJun 16 11:36
schestowitzWindows Update is Akamai (Linux)Jun 16 11:36
IsBobI wonder what we can do to stop people from using that Mono crapJun 16 11:36
schestowitzDaemonMDV: nopeJun 16 11:36
schestowitzAlexa is no gold standardJun 16 11:36
oiaohmPeople finding out information on patches from windows update show up as hits DaemonMDV if it covering technet.Jun 16 11:36
schestowitzIt's stupid to even make it believableJun 16 11:36
schestowitzIsBob: join the fightJun 16 11:36
DaemonMDVtechnet is a different domainJun 16 11:36
schestowitzExpose what you canJun 16 11:37
schestowitzIt's possible to do bothJun 16 11:37
schestowitzDo the job and leaking the truthJun 16 11:37
schestowitzMany things in BN are based on whistle blowersJun 16 11:37
oiaohmJust had to ask some stats sites group them DaemonMDV.Jun 16 11:37
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:37
oiaohmIsBob: when you are forbin to talk about something always ask what you are not forbin to talk about.Jun 16 11:37
oiaohmsometimes the not forbin can block what you are forbin to talk about.Jun 16 11:38
schestowitzForbidden = "we are doing something bad"Jun 16 11:38
schestowitzOr "don't ask"Jun 16 11:38
schestowitzHonest people work openlyJun 16 11:38
schestowitzLike here in BNJun 16 11:38
schestowitzWe don't do PMsJun 16 11:39
schestowitzAnd some people still try to trip us up this wayJun 16 11:39
oiaohmI have had to work under all sorts of different conditions.Jun 16 11:39
DaemonMDV 16 11:40
oiaohmLot of times taking a positive line in a different direction is simpler than dispute and still can be long term effective.Jun 16 11:40
DaemonMDVAlso, the comments on the Times Web site are truly disheartening: “This invention is stupid die die die.” Calm down, sirs.Jun 16 11:40
DaemonMDVlmaoJun 16 11:40
oiaohmGod that knife is useless.Jun 16 11:41
oiaohmSlash stab method would still work perfectly with it.Jun 16 11:41
DaemonMDVwell, it was invented in Sweden to be sold in the UKJun 16 11:43
DaemonMDVcan't really go too hard on itJun 16 11:43
oiaohmBesides I do use the point of knife when cooking at times.Jun 16 11:43
DaemonMDV:)Jun 16 11:43
DaemonMDVwell, if I bought the knife, why would I have bought it?Jun 16 11:44
DaemonMDVso *I* can't stab anyone?Jun 16 11:44
schestowitzPeople will DIY their knivesJun 16 11:44
schestowitzWhat a stupid ideaJun 16 11:44
DaemonMDVMaybe I'll just make up my own damned mind whether I want to stab someoneJun 16 11:44
DaemonMDVhehJun 16 11:44
schestowitzMaybe they should also make hands that work only in the kitchenJun 16 11:44
schestowitzAnd ban metalJun 16 11:44
schestowitzOr...Jun 16 11:44
schestowitz"Honey, will you please come to the kitchen?"Jun 16 11:45
DaemonMDVwell get this, you buy them, then get rid of your old knivesJun 16 11:45
DaemonMDVthen someone breaks into your houseJun 16 11:45
schestowitzThey relocate the crimeJun 16 11:45
*Np237 ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:45
DaemonMDVand you wish you had a knife to protect yourself withJun 16 11:45
Np237heyaJun 16 11:45
schestowitzGood luck going to people's house confiscating all the old utensilsJun 16 11:45
schestowitzNp237: hey, what's up?Jun 16 11:45
*IsBob has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 16 11:45


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