Bonum Certa Men Certa

Nathan Myhrvold/Bill Gates Use “Embrace and Extend” Against “Mak[ing] it Easy for People to Do Competitive Operating Systems”

Summary: Microsoft talks about harming competition by embracing and extending

WHEN IT comes to Comes vs Microsoft, we have only just begun. So if you enjoy 'smoking guns' that were hardly/never seen before, be sure to subscribe.

This next exhibit, Exhibit plex_5803 (1996) [PDF], is an excellent sequel to the one where Microsoft describes “Embrace and Extend” and the Windows API franchise.

Herein we find Nathan Myhrvold, the world's largest patent troll at present, seemingly passing a long message from Bill Gates, although it is not perfectly clear whether the message came from him or from Gates. The message paints a rather vivid picture of the company's fear and predatory responses to competition.

For instance, how about this gem at the start?

I am worry a lot about how great Java/Javabeans and all the runtime work they are doing is and how much excitement this is generating. I am literally losing sleep over this issue since together with a move to more server based applications it seems like it could make it easy for people to do competitive operating systems.


The next paragraph is curious too.

I am very interested to get your thoughts on this. Prior to the advanced work you are driving what kind of defenses do we have against this? I certainly havent’ come up with enough to relax about the situation and it is undermining my creativity.


Microsoft fears fair competition where platforms can interoperate:

I think that the risk of Sun really taking the OS franchise away from us is much lower than the risk that they cheapen the entire business. They are so hell bent to give things away, and there is so much cross platform ferver that it will be hard for them or others to harness this energy toward a single platform. In the limit, they can make the web totally OS agnostic but there will still be other things that motivate one platform versus another.


Gates (or Myhrvold) then proposes a malicious "embrace and extend" in order to extinguish Java. Think about MSODF [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7].

The obvious things to do are:

Provide our own means of dramatically improving web pages.

- Continue to “embrace and extend” both at the level of new Java tools (like J++), and our broader browser strategy.

- Create some radical new approaches to improving web pages, or building web applications. I think that it is a big mistake to put all of our eggs in the “embrace and extend” basket. This thinking will lead us down the path to renounce any really interesting edge we could have. Over reliance on “embrace and extend” can lead to what I sometimes call the relentless drive to come in second, which does not help much in a winner take all world.


Here is an embrace (like Microsoft 'joining' ODF):

2. Pioneer other means to participate in the new market. It is very rare that there is only one asset that matters. Hell, look at Netscape and Sun - each have an interesting asset, and this is still the EARLY stages of the net. There will be other technologies which matter and we should try to own one of them, even if it is in a totally different direction.


Another last mention of "embrace and extend" (all very explicitly):

We need Windows to be the most compelling platform for users to choose Ideally this means that we win in every category. You are worried that we will only tie in the Java category because Javabeans and other runtime work will make cross platform really work well. I say we should try to tie (or win) with embrace and extend in the Java world.


For naysayings who speak about the age of these exhibits, the important points to be made is that these are new to the public eye and they help educate about Microsoft's practices, which have never changed since. ⬆

"This anti-trust thing will blow over. We haven't changed our business practices at all."

--Bill Gates, 1995






Appendix: Comes vs. Microsoft - exhibit plex_5803, as text








From: Nathan Myhrvold Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 1996 12:05 PM To: Bill Gates Cc: Aaron Contorer Subject: RE: Java runtime becomes the operating system

-------- From: Bill Gates Sent: Monday, September 30, 1996 9:36 PM To: Nathan Myhrvoid Cc: Aaron Contorer Subject: Java runtime becomes the operating system

I am worry a lot about how great Java/Javabeans and all the runtime work they are doing is and how much excitement this is generating. I am literally losing sleep over this issue since together with a move to more server based applications it seems like it could make it easy for people to do competitive operating systems.

I am very interested to get your thoughts on this. Prior to the advanced work you are driving what kind of defenses do we have against this? I certainly havent’ come up with enough to relax about the situation and it is undermining my creativity.

I agree that this is a dilemma, but I don’t think that it is severe enough that you should lose sleep over it. Here are some quick thoughts on the matter - I will put more time in on it also.

First, the excitement is overblown at least from a *business* perspective. At the moment Java is expanding into a vacuum. It allows you to make cool web pages, and that is a very attractive thing for people. It gives programmers something new to learn, book people something new to sell books on, software tool companies a way to issue new development tools etc.

As you and know very well, this sort of widespread interest can become a self fulifilling phenomenon, because programmer attention creates programs. Some of these will be successful and that only fuels more participation in the phenomenon. However, at the same time you must keep something of a balanced perspective.

I think that the risk of Sun really taking the OS franchise away from us is much lower than the risk that they cheapen the entire business. They are so hell bent to give things away, and there is so much cross platform ferver that it will be hard for them or others to harness this energy toward a single platform. In the limit, they can make the web totally OS agnostic but there will still be other things that motivate one platform versus another.

In the very long run they could make it more and more difficult for us to keep up and thus even though the world is cross platform, we have more baggage, worse implementation and can’t keep up. This is NOT going to happen quickly however - we will get several more swings at them

The new Java applications are NOT credible threats to traditional PC software any time soon. It is just insanity to think that they are. New things are NEVER a threat to the old world as soon as people say. Look at the mainframe vs PC. It has taken us TWO DECADES and even after all that IBM still has billions in mainframe revenue. Cool new technology always expands rapidly into NEW areas (where there is a vacuum). Pundits always say that this is going to kill the old businesses - eventually that happens but not anywhere near as soon as they say.

It is a new and uncomfortable feeling to be the incumbent rather than the challenger in one of these battles. However, we must not panic. The current perceptual battle is a long way distant from actual business and revenue issues, and we can’t let the perceptual issues cloud our thinking too much.

This is not to say that Java is unimportant It is VERY important (just don’t lose sleep!) I think that you are focusing on the wrong *kind* of threat. We are in danger of losing a new market which will grow at a pace which is very rapid indeed. This would be a tradegy to have happen to us, but it is different than a direct assult on our core asset, and our response must also be different.

The obvious things to do are:

1

Plaintiff's Exhibit 5803 Comes V. Microsoft

MS-CC-Sun 000001396845 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL

1 Provide our own means of dramatically improving web pages.

- Continue to “embrace and extend” both at the level of new Java tools (like J++), and our broader browser strategy.

- Create some radical new approaches to improving web pages, or building web applications. I think that it is a big mistake to put all of our eggs in the “embrace and extend” basket. This thinking will lead us down the path to renounce any really interesting edge we could have. Over reliance on “embrace and extend” can lead to what I sometimes call the relentless drive to come in second, which does not help much in a winner take all world.

Note that by “radical” I mean more in concept than in technology i.e. NOT speech or other really hard stuff. Java is pathetic technology. We do not need high tech here we need some technology but mainly creativity in how we look at it.

2. Pioneer other means to participate in the new market. It is very rare that there is only one asset that matters. Hell, look at Netscape and Sun - each have an interesting asset, and this is still the EARLY stages of the net. There will be other technologies which matter and we should try to own one of them, even if it is in a totally different direction.

The key thing is to come up with something which will be buoyed up by the rising Intemet tide Again, this need not be some super hard technical problem it is more about being creative and finding an opportunity. Here are some examples (none perfect).

- Virtual worlds could be such a thing.

- New ways of doing server apps, or doing net transactions (ala Viper) could be such a thing.

I don’t have as many examples here as I would like, but I am pretty sure that we could come up with some things if we really focussed on this area.

3. Continue to invest in our core business assets - in this case the Windows runtime. 99% of worldwide software revenue is still based on Windows apps, and way more than 100% of profits. If we let Windows decline in its non-web attributes then we will REALLY will be up shit creek. I fear that the overexcitement in the web, and the misunderstanding that our core business is only indirectly under attack means that our current course and speed neglects our best avenue to comete.

We need Windows to be the most compelling platform for users to choose Ideally this means that we win in every category. You are worried that we will only tie in the Java category because Javabeans and other runtime work will make cross platform really work well. I say we should try to tie (or win) with embrace and extend in the Java world. HOWEVER while doing this we MUST NOT allow Windows to lose in the other, non-web dimensions that are important to users selecting systoms! There is more to a user’s system choice than just the Web and it is in those areas where we have a big advantage.

Put another way suppose that Java is totally successful and totally cross platform then why should people choose one - system versus another? It will all hinge on other areas.

Here are some examples:

- We need to be the LEADER in multimedia this means doing very cool audio and video. We want to lead with DVD and make it easy to. We must be the best platform for games (better than Ultra64 or Playstation). We want to be the best platform for graphics/video/audio authoring (better than SGI or Mac).

- Prevent barriers from coming up in ease of use. PCs must be instant on, they must go beyond plug and play to be even more self configuring, they must be self diagnosing. There is no technical reason why a PC shouldn’t be the best possible user experience better than those hypothetical web terminals. However, this takes WORK to make it happen It will take those web terminal guys some work too, but in our case there is a certain amount of baggage which will cause extra work for us, but will result in extra reward too. It is critical that we do this.

- Leverage the web to provide dramatic new functionality for old applications. The key example here is the “My Workspace” notion of totally abstracting storage on the net. This would be a dramatic change for users - storage abstractions are one of the hardest things to use in current PCs and we can make this all go away. If we do this based on STORAGE (i.e. file system APIs) it can short circuit the longer term move to distribution based on other APIs or protocols -- storage gets you most of the benefit.

2

MS-CC-Sun 000001386846 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL

I am frankly worried that we are not doing enough in this area because we have over-focused on the web We need end user focused people to really make our system great. We are handicapped by the fact that we also need to do an implementation technology shift (to NT) and a cultural/personnel shift (to Allchin’s group which has historically focussed more on underlying technology than on end user stuff).

This is a big challenge to do these shifts AND keep the platform vital. The analogy with Apple is frightening. They pissed away their creativity on non-Mac things (Kaleida, Sweet Pea/Pippin, Taligent, Newton...), and they tied up their Mac team with a technology shift (to Power PC). The analogy is unfair because the web work that Siverberg and Ludwig have been doing is much more relevant than what Apple did. However I still am worried that we are not making enough investment in our core asset. The good news is that we do have plenty of people we can focus on these problems, and if we do we can create some end user value that will be hard for anybody else to match.

-------------------------------

I am not sure whether I managed to make you less worried or more worried. I think that this is a serious problem, but I think that we have more options than you may think particularly with 2 and 3 above.

Nathan

3

MS-CC-Sun 000001386847 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL


Credit: wallclimber

Recent Techrights' Posts

As XBox Goes Out of Business Helen Chiang Adds Insult to Injury
XBox sales are worst in 25 years
Intercontinental Brigading - Part XXXIV - Women as Hostages, Even Spouses
First he put his own spouse behind bars by accusing the spouse of what he himself seems guilty of
A Geminispace Tally
That's not the Web, it is an alternative to it
Intercontinental Brigading - Part XXXIII - Shooting the Messenger is a Presidential Tactic
why our ministers are looking for ways to fix the law.
"The Judge Accepted That Mrs Schestowitz Had Been the Subject of a Vicious Campaign of Online Harassment"
That's consistent with how they men treat women
Intercontinental Brigading - Part XXX - Breaking This Year’s Election Process With Bug Doors in Restricted Boot
Thankfully here in the UK we typically still vote with paper and pencil
 
United Arab Emirates: GNU/Linux at Over 8%
According to statCounter
Steven Vaughan-Nichols is Slop
Just look at this
The Register MS is "Hosting a Dinner" for Sponsors
Remember that The Register MS keeps publishing spam about "AI"
Intercontinental Brigading - Part XXXVI - A Potent Microsoft Threat to Administration of Justice Globally (Not Just Fair Elections)
Breaking into machines to cover up one's own crimes
Intercontinental Brigading - Part XXXV - When One Does Not Understand Security (Nor Ever Pursues Security)
One might therefore conclude that Garrett is a proponent of American back doors
Links 04/11/2026: "Democratic Establishment" Wins Big and "Pentagon Sued Over Hegseth’s New “Future of Warfare” Committee Led by Musk"
Links for the day
Andy's Latest Writings About Proton CEO Andy Yen, "JavaScript Required", and Slavery in Technology
Andy (of The Cyber Show) has some new material
Intercontinental Brigading - Part XXXII - Malfunctions Reported in Windows Voting Machines (as Usual)
"There are always problems," Ryan told us
Gemini Links 04/11/2026: GoAccess, Adopting Gopher, and Twisty Passages
Links for the day
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, November 03, 2026
IRC logs for Tuesday, November 03, 2026
Intercontinental Brigading - Part XXXI - Microsoft and Promoters of "Secure Boot" Are to Blame
the important thing is that the dictator and Microsoft can remotely control all computers
Links 03/11/2026: Science Around "Near-Death Experiences" and "Do Animals Grieve?"
Links for the day
Gemini Links 03/11/2026: Guitar, 3D-Printable Electric Spinning Wheel, Against Haven Social, and More
Links for the day
Intel Corporation Down Over 51% in One Month, the US Bailout Didn't Work
Is the slop industry [sic] next?
Microsoft European Development Centre (EDC) Next to be Culled?
No time for that anymore
Mass Layoffs at SUSE, Over 10% of Staff Gone
Ignore their excuses
When You're a Software Developer and They Tell You That Your Occupation is Dead or Dying in Order to Sell Dysfunctional Offerings Based on Hype (and Plagiarism)
Disbelief is a strength when companies borrow trillions of dollars to sell a dud and construct a pyramid scheme
Links 03/11/2026: Slop-Tied Debt is Becoming a Crisis (Lenders Panic), "Ukrainian Journalists Urge Global Media Not to Look Away From Russian Aggression"
Links for the day
Malaysia Seems to be Exploring Digital Independence With GNU/Linux and More
not too bad
Microsoft Windows is Crashing in Republic of South Korea
Like in Japan, they seem to be shutting the lid on decades of Microsoft-isms
Think Less, Aim for Less (When It Comes to Hardware)
An abundance of hardware being wasted on a pyramid scheme will become a cautionary tale one day
Gemini Links 03/11/2026: Stargazing, Linux-Powered Prism "Ambient Computer", and Abandoning Streaming Disservices
Links for the day
GNU/Linux Made Big Strides in Portugal This Year
Microsoft had many layoffs in Portugal in recent years
GNU/Linux in Argentina Now Measured at 8% "Market Share"
Argentina is known for exporting skilled footballers, not advanced technology, but it has a large population, which we can hope will dump Windows
Microsoft is Borrowing Loads of Money While Telling 60,000 Workers to Take the "Offer" and Leave, Microsoft Wants Bailouts From the Dictator
Vote in elections and also vote with your wallet
Microsoft and Spoilt Food
Some whistleblowers may be needed here
Intercontinental Brigading - Part XXIX - Undermining US Election While Engaging in Lawfare in England (BBC) Against Publishers That Cover Anti-Election Violence
The elephant in the room is back doors in voting machines
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Monday, November 02, 2026
IRC logs for Monday, November 02, 2026
Links 02/11/2026: Bracing for US Election and New Zealand Has November 7 Election
Links for the day
Gemini Links 02/11/2026: Beginning With Gemini Protocol, Looking for CoCs, and Slop for Local Data
Links for the day
NDA-Compatible PIPs and RAs at IBM Red Hat
We welcome Red Hat whistleblowers who can share with us the NDA/s passed their way
The Tower of Babel
More is not better
When Large American "Tech" Companies Can No Longer Complete Payroll
In spite of several very large waves of Dell layoffs, which the media reported on, it seems like they are still experienceng payroll problems, maybe that's why money is being borrowed
GNU/Linux Rises in African's Largest Population
15% in Nigeria [...] A country with over 200 million people
The Register MS Has Just Published a Fake Article With "AI" 28 Times in the Page (Communist Party of China Entity Paid for That)
In IRC, someone has just pointed out that an article at The Register MS repeats Microsoft's lies about its financial situation
Windows Down to All-Time Low, Says statCounter, While Microsoft Tells 60,000 Workers They're No Longer Necessary
Microsoft must be feeling "salty" right now
A British Uphill Battle to Eliminate Microsoft and Its American Back Doors
There are places of work and homes where GNU/Linux is installed and regularly used, not as a mere hobby but as a hyper-productive, practical tool
Writing for Good
The Web has an abundance of junk
Technical Coverage of US Elections
When elections are done by computers and decided by computers it becomes a tech issue
By Killing the "Linux News Section" in Softpedia (the Most Popular Section, Based on Its Editor) Softpedia Killed Itself
Enjoy Ballmer
Linkspam in "It's FOSS" Today (and It's Not Even FOSS)
free-to-access ad for some dodgy companies and the URLs are 'tampered' for cashback
Links 02/11/2026: Slop Destroying Mathematics and "Democracy is Not on the Ballot" (in US)
Links for the day
Celebrating Photography, Celebrating Life, Celebrating Magnificent Humanity, Not Plagiarism Disservices
Any time we adopt or spread slop imagery we are participating in the problem
Year-Long Celebration Starts on Saturday
This coming Saturday we turn 20
Intercontinental Brigading - Part XXVIII - Microsoft Doesn't Want People to Speak About Microsoft-Controlled Restricted ('Secure') Boot, a Silent Injustice and Back Door/Kill Switch
Can we please stop treating this as normal or acceptable?
On Desktops/Laptops, Clownflare Sees Windows at Under 60% and GNU/Linux at 15% This Past Weekend
Impressive if accurate
Microsoft Lunduke is Slop
Microsoft Lunduke is just trying to stir up hatred
Intercontinental Brigading - Part XXVII - Shooting the Messengers (People Who Oppose Microsoft Back Doors), Even Across the Atlantic
Keep this in mind later this week when a dictator either discredits the voting or covertly tampers with the voting process
Microsoft Wants 60,000 Employees Gone (One Way or Another)
At IBM, 15% of staff got marked as candidates for removal; at Microsoft it's almost 30%
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Sunday, November 01, 2026
IRC logs for Sunday, November 01, 2026
Jean-Claude Van Linus
Claude talking?