Bonum Certa Men Certa

Guest Post: Hostile Communities and Arrogant Developers

Easter Eggs



Summary: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket, whether regarding your software or your community."

As a free speech advocate who once spent an entire decade establishing a single point about development that was hostile to a community, I've spent a long time thinking about what makes certain things so difficult to say or get acknowledged in a community -- about how communities can delude themselves and use coordinated abuse to defend their positions.



For those who feel this is a familiar problem, my advice to you is: don't put all your eggs in one basket, whether regarding your software or your community. If the people around your favourite software are toxic in some way, find a good way to create or seek an alternative.

Humility is a hard problem in computer science, and people will judge you based on their own notions of fairness. Fairness is a difficult concept for basically everyone. No matter how interested you are in finding truth, playing devil's advocate or viewing things from multiple perspectives (without succumbing to false compromise) you're ultimately going to choose between being agreeable and taking a lot of criticism.

"I like people that are outspoken, I like that Torvalds flipped off Nvidia and I like that Stallman doesn't coddle corporations and excuse their corruption and poor behaviour towards the user."If you are a critic, you will have every critique turned back on you. People say they are thick-skinned, but a lot of that is about appearances and what people tell themselves. Most people are more vulnerable than they admit.

One of the things that I try to promote as a free speech advocate is for people to be allowed to be their true selves -- but not allowed to be untrue. This means for one thing, that we aren't putting up a facade of being agreeable when we feel something is wrong. It also means people have faults, and no matter where you are in your journey as a person, that you screw up and other people screw up, and pretty much everybody has played the fool before.

Some of the most vulnerable people in the world like to project their need for perfection onto others. They don't always hold themselves to similar standards; they either feel great amounts of shame, or none at all, and they maintain this by being unfair to everyone. This doesn't actually bother everyone, because being consistently unfair has different effects on different people -- some get pissed off, others walk away, some people treat it as a learning experience, and if you make it a goal in life to treat every experience as an opportunity to grow, you probably will grow. Sometimes.

I'm not here to paint myself as a saint. I like people that are outspoken, I like that Torvalds flipped off Nvidia and I like that Stallman doesn't coddle corporations and excuse their corruption and poor behaviour towards the user. I think there are (at least) two kinds of assholes: those who are assholes for a good cause (Bill Hicks, George Carlin -- when he is maintaining the kernel, Linus Torvalds -- Spider Jerusalem) and people who are "really just assholes."

The whole concept of becoming the niceness police is a very corporate thing, which in practice allows people like Torvalds to be hypocritically stifled by people who are just as rude, but who have worse intentions. I don't support it, I don't defend it, it is a recipe for hypocrisy.

"That's part of the fairness -- if we decide to treat anything we consider offensive as yet another scarlet letter, all we have done is made the world more corporate and authoritative."Any concept of being better people has to acknowledge that many of the best people in the world are assholes sometimes. That's part of the fairness -- if we decide to treat anything we consider offensive as yet another scarlet letter, all we have done is made the world more corporate and authoritative.

Then again, if someone is being a jerk without a good reason (and who is to say? Should we make it about what the reason is, about context, or should we make it authoritative?) You still have the right to call them on it.

If you do, is the bully protected? Is the community really introspective enough to not favour their own over fairness? Will they turn against you for speaking up, and then neglect to address the bully you stood up to? Because this sort of injustice doesn't becomes less common under a Code of Conduct. It often increases. This particular sort of injustice is the same problem with or without a CoC.

Consider the Bill of Rights. These are ideals and freedoms a lot of us want every person to have; it is not just a list of privileges for citizens, in fact they are drawn from a concept of natural rights. The Bill of Rights places natural rights firmly outside the reach of (legitimate) government. If you rip up the Constitution, the rights still exist -- all that has changed is whether those rights are officially recognised by the government.

Do we extend that sort of baseline fairness to people outside our communities? Do we recognise the rights of other people we consider inalienable? I admit this question is mostly rhetorical, but all I'm really trying to say here is that I believe truth often transcends a local community take on it -- there are always areas in which a community forgets the obvious about one matter or another.

Not being a jerk is a great goal for any person, never being considered a jerk is a goal that is probably unobtainable for most or all good people. I love Dave Chappelle and what he says about Kevin Hart, and either are surely considered jerks by many now -- due to their politics or pasts. Are they wonderful comedians? I think so. Not all of us are offended, or need to be.

"Not being a jerk is a great goal for any person, never being considered a jerk is a goal that is probably unobtainable for most or all good people."But there are efforts to destroy people based on holding them to an unrealistic standard. There is nothing that really makes Richard Stallman a horrible person, but there are plenty of arguments for treating him no differently than someone who is. To me, that's a fine example of arrogance -- of creating a different concept of fairness to take down a great person than one we would accept for ourselves in the same shoes.

But even if we are terrible at figuring out who deserves it, I also think we have a right to stand up to bullies, and argue with people who are being unreasonable. Being "nice" to everyone is a fine solution, if you really believe it is the answer to everything -- if you're capable of really being nice to everyone.

"There is nothing that really makes Richard Stallman a horrible person, but there are plenty of arguments for treating him no differently than someone who is."I think more people are capable of being jerks to those who deserve it, and there's a lot of room to talk about the times we turn that on the wrong people, or for the wrong reasons. But I don't believe that it's never justified. I think if we make a rule that you can never argue, never protest, never be "rude", and that doing so somehow ruins something -- that's just nonsense. It is a convenience for exactly the sort of person who needs to abuse the sort of authoritarian regime it inevitably creates.

A better rule would be to try to understand why people are being jerks -- if they have a reason to be that way, if they are being misunderstood, if there is context -- if there is no interest, then just ignore it. This is a good idea, but some people will be certain to exploit our best nature.

When I wrote a book on how the Free software movement could become twice as effective, I included a chapter on narcissism -- I think there is more of it out there than people realise or understand. It isn't just an inflated sense of self. It isn't just ambition. Narcissism is a fundamental unfairness, and if lots more people understood it better, I think communities would be able to deal with it more effectively.

So if I talk about "hostile communities" or "arrogant developers," I'm not just saying that there are jerks there. There are "jerks" everywhere. Some of them are even valuable to us.

The context of such labels, if applied fairly, is that a fundamental unfairness, a persistent injustice infects a project -- due to its community, its project leaders, or both. It's not just about what people are doing, but what reasons they have, and what they are trying to defend with their abuse.

"I don't like Torvalds because of the way he smeared the Free software community selfishly and unfairly, while stealing so much credit from them during the course of his career."And if you're one of those people who really are nice to everybody -- great, you make the world a better place. Most people aren't as good as you, but you deserve credit for setting a good example. Cheers.

I don't like Torvalds because of the way he smeared the Free software community selfishly and unfairly, while stealing so much credit from them during the course of his career. To me, that is fundamentally unjust. What I would like for him to do instead is to turn his ability to forcefully defend the kernel on such matters exclusively, and not have it spill over onto how he treats reasonable critics.

But since that will never happen, I will simply retain my opinion of him. I'm not going to stop using his kernel, because I don't think he's a monster. I just think he's a dick. If a better kernel came along, sure, that's great.

I'm not saying there is no threshold where I wouldn't boycott a piece of software over someone's attitude, I'm just saying that for me personally, the importance and quality of Torvald's kernel outweighs his smearing of the entire Free software community. It leaves me using his software and disliking him as a person, and commenting on his unfairness. If he wrote a text editor, and it wasn't the very best text editor in the history of the world, I might not use it just because he's a jerk.

But I also believe that he is a better person than the one who will take his place, that he shows great integrity when defending the quality and goals of the kernel (quality and goals I strongly agree are worthwhile) and that it's just too bad that integrity doesn't extend to his treatment of Free software, or of corporations.

Facebook is disease, hating Microsoft is a disease. How can you be so inconsistent? But as someone who gets some things very right, and other things very wrong, he's a very useful example. We are never going to get an apology from Linus. What we will get, is a worse replacement.

When I start mentioning toxic communities, I'm talking about endemics -- something that can only be solved via personal integrity from a threshold of more than one individual working together for a higher purpose. I don't think you can force toxicity out of a community -- they can only repair themselves from within, or they can be abandoned if there is a viable alternative.

If instead, we just try to purge all the jerks from every corner -- what do we get? A world with no Carlins, no Chappelles, no Stallmans, and we get a worse person than Torvalds instead of Torvalds.

"Hostile communities also have a certain level of unfairness towards outsiders; they claim one principle, but that principle doesn't hold up once you go outside the innermost community."I don't recommend being that superficial. The only way for humanity to reach perfection is if it takes forever, or takes shortcuts to damn itself. We are so attached to the latter these days -- I would rather it take forever. But I would still like for communities to at least try to maintain a good overall direction. There are too many places right now, that we don't even have that.

Maybe you don't know what I'm talking about, and that's alright. One thing I've noticed from years of talking about the politics of communities, is that most people are constantly told (and to some degree, believe) that there is no problem. Others think it is irrelevant unless there is a proven solution. Others thing it is irrelevant even if there is a proven solution.

When it comes to a community or government that stifles people, the people who believe there is stifling are always the minority -- often a small one.

There are lots of people who love to play a victim too, and there is no simple way to ever be sure who is whom. But where there is stifling, the people to notice and say something are often the first to experience the full brunt of it. If you ask around -- "Are people being stifled? What about this guy? What about her? How about these people over here?" You are typically going to have to be an investigative reporter to find the stifling going on. If it were obvious, more people wouldn't support it.

You have to care really deeply about a community to change this, and you also have to be respected in the community enough to stand up to it and not become another victim.

"You have to care really deeply about a community to change this, and you also have to be respected in the community enough to stand up to it and not become another victim."There are no easy answers, but that doesn't mean these problems don't exist. It is the very worst when the arrogance and hostility protects things that don't deserve protection -- things like corporate takeovers, slacking about security, and protecting the dishonest. Hostile communities also have a certain level of unfairness towards outsiders; they claim one principle, but that principle doesn't hold up once you go outside the innermost community.

It is passe to refer to these hostile communities as cults, but not entirely without point to make the comparison. Sometimes, non-cults circle the wagons and become gradually more cult-like with time.

It's important to point out that you can have a highly toxic community for an otherwise good project, even if the developer is a decent person. Ideally, the developer would fix this -- unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. Sometimes in the Free software world, the lead developer is the real problem. Sometimes it has nothing to do with them, and they are sort of a victim of their own supporters; it's not that the supporters don't appreciate the developer, its just that they are incapable of not being toxic. Realising they didn't get into software to raise and babysit a community, the developer throws their hands up and lets the community be a mix of friendly people, narcissistic co-leaders, and their many victims.

"For Debian, it was systemd -- for Puppy Linux, it will likely be the use of GitHub."There is often some singular political truth being propped up by such a community -- that the community is protecting a single lie (such as an exaggeration of the effectiveness of their effort or their ability to keep a core promise to users, once abandoned) and most of the abuse towards the unguarded centres around tripping over that one lie with a simple truth.

In other words, the narcissistic defense of a single false promise to users (I can think of several examples among several different communities) rather than admitting limitations is often at the core of these quiet feuds, disputes and endemic abuse.

Eventually these disputes become controversy, and later on they become a project's downfall. For Debian, it was systemd -- for Puppy Linux, it will likely be the use of GitHub. These are not even the worst examples, which I have neglected to mention at this time. There are also many lesser examples. Of course, it may not matter to you. If you have never experienced this sort of thing first hand, it may never matter to you.

If you have witnessed it in more than one community, you might feel obliged to comment on it. But it is seldom easy to do so, even for good people. To gain respect in a community often takes more than being a good person -- if your contributions aren't among the top concerns, you may find that silence amidst corruption is your only saving grace.

Is that a privilege you really even want?

License: Creative Commons CC0 1.0 (Public Domain)

Comments

Recent Techrights' Posts

Machine-Generated Legal Documents, Over 2,000 Pages Sent to Us Today Alone
We now know that the papers we receive are produced using bots (algorithms)
 
EPO and "Equivalent to More Than 100 Days of Strike"
The industrial actions continue and already have a positive effect
Streisand Effect, the Microsoft Way
Microsoft has once again proven the Streisand Effect
Keeping Track of IBM Layoffs in March 2026
IBM depends on bribery
GNU/Linux Measured at 7% in Yemen
Windows is too hostile and dangerous
Links 03/03/2026: Security Breaches, Iceland Wants EU Membership, and "Wall Street–Backed Lawmakers Want to Help Banks Gouge You"
Links for the day
Queensland Health Payroll System: IBM billion-dollar-blowout inquiry
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Monday, March 02, 2026
IRC logs for Monday, March 02, 2026
Gemini Links 03/03/2026: GrapheneOS and Keyboard Shortcuts
Links for the day
Tomorrow should be sunny (at long last!) and a generally productive dayProductive Week Ahead
Tomorrow should be sunny (at long last!) and a generally productive day
Only One Slopfarm Seems to Have Targeted "Linux" Today
It certainly does feel like the slop hype is reaching the "late life crisis" and companies that benefited from this bubble are overdue for a day of reckoning
Microsoft Mass Layoffs: Being Sacked at 1AM in the Morning
Watch what happens to Microsoft employees who get pregnant
Links 02/03/2026: More Social Control Media Bans, Climate Change Woes, and "Journalist With Germany's Deutsche Welle Arrested in Turkey"
Links for the day
Gemini Links 02/03/2026: Small Phones, "I 3D Printed My Brain", and "Managing 5 Servers at Once with tmux"
Links for the day
IBM is Trying to Hide Mass Layoffs, Not Only With NDAs and 'Scripted' LinkedIn Posts
From what we can gather (screenshot above), today many people leave IBM and Red Hat
Richard Stallman is Giving a Public Talk This Week (Friday in Lucerne School of Computer Science and Information Technology)
His birthday is just around the corner.
Windows Falls to New Low in World's Largest Population (India)
Windows is now down to 7%
Never Miss a Good Opportunity to Shut Up and Drink Coffee
Threats come at a cost; each time you issue a threat you stigmatise yourself as a bully
Last Month Matthew Garrett Said Ridiculous Things After His Spouse Had Called Him a "Rapist", Now He's Trying to Take the Site Offline and Put My Family in Prison
The real issue of concern to him (and his alleged reputation) is the spouse and the matter is to be dealt with in America, not the UK
Reporting to Our Politicians/MPs the Failure of the SRA to Stop Hired Guns Who Help Americans (Men Who Attack Women and Nowadays Also Attack British Reporters)
About a month ago my wife wrote to politicians to get the ball rolling
The Topic Many People Don't Want to Talk or Write About
"DEI" is inherently about making racial and gender patterns better reflect society's
XBox is Virtually Dead Already, What Next Will Die at Microsoft?
Now that there are mass layoffs at Microsoft datacentres it is not premature to speculate about what dies after XBox
For the First Time, statCounter Measures Internet Explorer at 0.01% "Market Share"
What Microsoft replaced it with is just a Chrome clone with extra spyware
Was a Lot of "Windows" and "Unknown" in Iran Just GNU/Linux in Disguise?
more than 1 in 10 desktop/laptop requests is estimated to be GNU/Linux
"Here in the UK, GNU/Linux rose to all-time high at Windows' expense"
Will this entail Software Freedom as well? This depends on all of us
Links 02/03/2026: Claude Code Causes a Mexican Government Cyberattack, "London Repair Week" Noted
Links for the day
2026 Microsoft Mass Layoffs in So-called 'AI' Datacentres, Why Doesn't the Mainstream Media Cover The News?
What does this tell us about the state of the media?
Don't Fall for "Top X Law Firms" in "Discipline Y", They Pay $Z to Get False Endorsement/s
It's a scheme, a scam, an elaborate fraud
More Publishers Have Turned From Slop Boosters Into Slop Sceptics and Critics
There's a "hidden cost" when one participates (for profit) in "pump and dump" schemes
TeX Live Has New Release, But Planet Debian Won't Tell You That
It 'unpersoned' the developer
LLM Slop Does Not Know People (It Knows Nothing) and Cannot Distinguish Between People. It's a Recipe for Disaster.
no way of knowing who's who
"Over 1,100 Law Firms Gone in Five Years" in the United Kingdom (UK) Alone
There are basically way too many lawyers (looking for "business", e.g. threats and lawfare) and not enough positions to fill
Microsoft FUD From Microsoft Site Helps Distract From Actual Microsoft Back Doors
Published on a Sunday
Free Software Foundation Needs to Become More Active in Europe to Avoid Impersonation by Microsoft-Sponsored Groups
So far we've hardly seen the FSF saying anything at all about the US president
Links 02/03/2026: "Not Envious of Billionaires" and Palantir SLAPPs "Swiss Magazine For Accurately Reporting That The Swiss Government Didn't Want Palantir"
Links for the day
There Has Never Been a Better Time to Quit Social Control Media
Those networks are selling something. And that something is not peace because peace does not sell "attention".
Microsoft Users Drowning in Slop, If They Complain Microsoft Censors Them
Like an authoritarian regime
IBM is Killing Red Hat's Portfolio - Including Linux - to Prop Up Ponzi Scheme ("AI")
IBM is killing Red Hat
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Sunday, March 01, 2026
IRC logs for Sunday, March 01, 2026
Speed of Sites Matters
Being easily accessible all the time matters to us
Gemini Links 02/03/2026: Weird Phone Calls, Small Phones, and Exploring Racket
Links for the day
Dr. Andy Farnell on "Good Tech"
in the age of "rent everything" and "own nothing"
Gemini Links 01/03/2026: Simpler Software and Announcing OFFLFIRSOCH (OFFLine-FIRst SOftware CHallenge) 2026
Links for the day
EPO "Cocaine Communication Manager" - Part V - Jobs at the EPO for Those Connected to Cocaine Addicts (Skills Not Required)
EPO management is trying to shoot the messenger
Booz Allen Hamilton, the Former Employer of Edward Snowden (NSA Contractor), is Drowning in Debt
Can Supreme Leader Cheeto bail it out like he does slop companies?
On the Concept of "Protected Class" (or Race) at IBM
It's self-harming as in practice it imperils the company and harms the reputation/brand
The Mass Layoffs at Microsoft That Nobody in the "News Industry" Wants to Talk About (and TheLayoff.com Censored, Then It Censored the Evidence of the Censorship)
They basically cover up how they censored the news about Microsoft layoffs
Richard Stallman to Give at Least Three Talks in Switzerland, Starting This Week
No mention (yet) of the Bern talk
On Who 'Speaks for' Techrights
typically a case of misrepresenting the site
'FSFE' an Imposter in Europe, Paid by GAFAM to Represent GAFAM Interests
The Microsoft-sponsored 'FSFE', which violates the terms of use of its name, is causing confusion [...] formally-recognised institutions got tricked into thinking that the Microsoft-sponsored 'FSFE' is the FSF
Lots of Lies From the Slop Industry
The slop industry relies on fake news to give a notion or fake demand
Links 01/03/2026: American Plutocrats Buy American Media While American Constitution Shredded
Links for the day
Teaser: The Next Series About the SRA, Which Would be Just as Effective as It Is Right Now If It Had Zero Employees
the lapdog (of the "litigation industry") that is meant to be perceived as a watchdog
Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) Inaction and Incompetence - Part I - Introduction
The SRA is a sham. Many people know this already, but we want to document our own experiences with it.
Live Simply, Live Better
Life isn't about "collecting" possessions; it's about doing things that matter and accumulating knowledge so as to make better choices
Now That XBox is Pretty Much Dead and There Are Mass Layoffs at Microsoft
This means our predictions about Microsoft (and XBox) are "falling into place"
Gemini Links 01/03/2026: "In the Spirit of OFFLFIRSOCH" and "Delete Patreon"
Links for the day
ACM Lowers Its Standards for Age of Autocracy
IBM is more than happy to work with autocracies
The term FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) was created to describe IBM's tactics and IBM is doing it again
Rob Thomas or "RT"
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Saturday, February 28, 2026
IRC logs for Saturday, February 28, 2026