Re: giving money to gnome

[Benedikt Eric Heinen <beh@icemark.ch>]

> > 	Is GNOME the only possible free software project we could give
> > 	money to?
> No, but it's the best *free* desktop (here all future references to
> free mean "unencumbered by a non-free component"), and Bruce does feel
> very strongly that we *need* a good free integrated desktop.  (He's
> probably right.  *I* don't need it, but Debian probably does.)

Why would Debian profit from GNOME? If it is truly free, it'll be taken
over by all distributions. That is not a problem, since we have our social
contract.

*BUT* this will not help promote Debian, it will help promote RedHat and
SuSe (among other distributions). 

Why? Simple, a new user will most likely be "lured" to Linux, if Linux
becomes more user friendly. A free GOOD desktop will certainly help with
that.

*BUT* Debian is not the most user-friendly distribution. Has anyone seen
all those nice graphical gadgets that SuSe and Redhat have and Debian
hasn't? Dselect is scaring new people off. Giving money to GNOME will help
against KDE - no problem here. It will help free software. But - it will
harm Debian.

If it is the good "free" desktop we need, I don't know. Before we have
that, we also need to be more appealing to new users by ourselves.
Otherwise investing in GNOME will make us "lose" against other more
user-friendly distributions.

Anyone around who has a serious *REASON* to doubt that? Then, let me hear
it.



> > 	Why can't GTK be an alternative?
> Well, helping GNOME will probably help GTK, but at the moment, GTK
> doesn't need as much help as GNOME if the goal is to get a good free
> integrated desktop finished.  GTK's going along quite well with many
> people submitting patches.

Still, not supporting GTK will mean, that GTK people won't get MORE time
to improve their toolkit, which will make them "lose" against Qt.

[Remember - to many people free software is more like free beer! And to
those - for writing free software, Qt is also free...]


> Besides, the GTK people have never said that they had any interest in
> a Qt wrapper, funded or not, and as Bruce pointed out, this could be a
> legal minefield anyway.  So regardless, giving money to GTK in no way
> addresses the desktop issue.

It shouldn't be a desktop issue, it should just be a simple toolkit issue.
And I'd personally vote for giving GTK the money to help promote GTK, to
add to its functionality, write more/better documentation where required,
etc.


> > 	Why do people say, they just want to give money to GNOME to
> > 	support GTK, when giving the money to GTK would have the same
> > 	effect, but wouldn't upset KDE people so much?
> Because giving it to GTK wouldn't necessarily have the effect of
> getting a good free desktop off the ground at a time when it's
> crucial.

Fine - and who'll be taking care of Debian? Who'll take care, that we'll
also have all those nice graphical really user-friendly gadgets, that
help us promote our distribution? A newbie won't be attracted to Linux by
stating "Debian is technically more mature than other distributions, but
it's package interface sucks!".


>  It's unfortunate that this goal is upsetting to the KDE
> people, but that can't be helped, and they aren't doing anything to
> alleviate the problem.  If anything, their rising popularity is what
> has increased the urgency of releasing a good unencumbered desktop.

This "unencumbrance" is something "technical". The end user isn't going to
worry, whether it's "technically" free or not, as long as it is
"practically" free for him (i.e. as long as he doesn't have to pay money
to get it).


> > 	Why not give THIS money to dselect? The main point of negative 
> > 	feedback on Debian is not, that we don't have a free desktop,
> > 	but rahter that dselect is still a good way from "very
> > 	user-friendly".  (Note the polite wording here)
> > 	Later we can still give money from other sources to GNOME.
> But GNOME needs money now, or rather I think that people feel it's
> important that they move faster, if possible, now.  I doubt that
> throwing money at dselect is going to help.  GNOME is in a much better
> position to take advantage of increased resources.

It's not just dselect. There is need for other tools to make Debian more
appealing to the general public. Each of those tools is rather "small",
so this might be an excellent starting position to get lots of people
working on this.

Get any one of those done first, and if people like its style, get more
people to do similar tools by following the "look-and-feel" of the first
one. That will really be going to help free software, as we'd have a
REALLY free distribution that will still appeal to the public.


  Benedikt


Windows 95: n.
    32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit
    operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor,  written
         by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition.


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