| schestowitz | http://twitter.com/glynmoody/st... | Feb 03 19:01 |
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| *r0ver (n=r0ver@200.68.91.21) has joined #boycottnovell | Feb 03 19:07 |
| jose__ | just noticed you didn't use my **improvement** to your ad. | Feb 03 19:12 |
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| jose__ | shame | Feb 03 19:12 |
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| schestowitz | :-) | Feb 03 19:12 |
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| *The_Mad_Hatter (i=63ee6975@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cf7d91ea53c54597) has joined #boycottnovell | Feb 03 19:13 |
| schestowitz | Hmmm... just got this: "I read the IRC conversation on the BN call-for-help-and-advice page. You mentioned about putting together an ebook. That might be something I could help with." | Feb 03 19:18 |
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| schestowitz | "I'm assuming you were thinking about the Comes v MS exhibits and commentary. Maybe do ebooks in volumes to keep the sizes manageable. Volume 1 could start with an explanation of what the Comes v MS suit was about, and how the exhibits are important to understanding the ways MS execs do business. | Feb 03 19:18 |
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| schestowitz | "It would take a tremendous amount of organizing and time for setting it up. It would need ToCs and reference pages and all, but it's doable, I think. You already have a lot of it written." | Feb 03 19:18 |
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| schestowitz | "THEN start on a book about Boycott Novell and how it began and why, and all the problem solving you've had to do. I think it would be interesting..." | Feb 03 19:18 |
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| schestowitz | "On the other hand, you probably have MORE than enough on your plate right now without me thinking up new stuff to do..." | Feb 03 19:18 |
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| schestowitz | Should we do this? | Feb 03 19:18 |
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| schestowitz | Another mail says: "Regarding the Fannie Mae contractor who is being blamed for attempting to destroy evidence, odds are he didn't come up with the idea on his own. I expect there to be a trail back to other people." | Feb 03 19:18 |
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| schestowitz | "However, the Bush administration, by deploying various MS products as surrogates for an infrastructure have basically ensured chaos and data loss. For example, the "security" fix that removed support for old MS Office formats basically removed access to all the electronic records in those formats." | Feb 03 19:18 |
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| jose__ | roy if you start a wiki to plan this, people might chip in.. | Feb 03 19:20 |
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| jose__ | many would not consider this site to be clean. | Feb 03 19:21 |
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| jose__ | so it's one thing to archive or clone.. it's another to package nicely as if it was clean.. would it be cleaned out? what standards would be used? | Feb 03 19:22 |
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| schestowitz | Which site? | Feb 03 19:22 |
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| schestowitz | I see, I know... | Feb 03 19:22 |
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| jose__ | i am referring to issues like the wikipedia .. where people fight over just what is acceptable | Feb 03 19:22 |
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| schestowitz | The issue is seaming bits together in a proper order | Feb 03 19:22 |
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| jose__ | such a large site with so many controversial items means many will be turned off by at least some part of it | Feb 03 19:22 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: we already have a Wiki | Feb 03 19:22 |
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| jose__ | is the wiki being used for organizing material? | Feb 03 19:23 |
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| schestowitz | Comes mostly | Feb 03 19:23 |
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| jose__ | introduce it there | Feb 03 19:23 |
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| jose__ | yeah, bring this up. | Feb 03 19:23 |
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| jose__ | btw, what is the url | Feb 03 19:23 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/Wiki | Feb 03 19:23 |
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| jose__ | ok | Feb 03 19:24 |
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| schestowitz | Will you please help us? | Feb 03 19:24 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/wiki. | Feb 03 19:24 |
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| jose__ | the organization would be link collections i guess | Feb 03 19:24 |
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| jose__ | plus some intros, etc | Feb 03 19:24 |
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| jose__ | ??\ | Feb 03 19:24 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/wiki | Feb 03 19:24 |
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| schestowitz | I can't type well | Feb 03 19:24 |
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| jose__ | generally or just right now? | Feb 03 19:25 |
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| jose__ | ??? | Feb 03 19:25 |
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| jose__ | do you mean because of the "." at the end of the url | Feb 03 19:25 |
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| schestowitz | We need texts and synopses | Feb 03 19:25 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: yes | Feb 03 19:25 |
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| schestowitz | The idea is this. | Feb 03 19:26 |
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| schestowitz | We have about 9000 exhibits | Feb 03 19:26 |
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| schestowitz | We can't do them all. | Feb 03 19:26 |
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| schestowitz | But some people picked out favourites | Feb 03 19:26 |
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| jose__ | ok | Feb 03 19:26 |
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| schestowitz | I gradually add more when I find the time | Feb 03 19:26 |
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| jose__ | going on that favorites thing | Feb 03 19:26 |
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| jose__ | a star ranking of some sort | Feb 03 19:26 |
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| schestowitz | I sort of 'tag' them so that I can use related ones | Feb 03 19:26 |
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| jose__ | could be used to mark off the noncontroversial gems | Feb 03 19:26 |
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| jose__ | from regular controversial gems | Feb 03 19:26 |
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| jose__ | from nongems | Feb 03 19:27 |
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| jose__ | etc | Feb 03 19:27 |
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| schestowitz | Yes | Feb 03 19:27 |
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| jose__ | maybe star ranking in various categories | Feb 03 19:27 |
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| schestowitz | But I have a lot of work ahead adding the conent | Feb 03 19:27 |
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| schestowitz | It's still not polished. Far from it | Feb 03 19:27 |
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| jose__ | this isolates parts of bn which may lead to various books and helpers | Feb 03 19:27 |
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| jose__ | i know | Feb 03 19:27 |
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| schestowitz | But it's a Wiki, not blog posts | Feb 03 19:27 |
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| jose__ | but novell is a community player in the eyes of many and in some respects in the eyes of most | Feb 03 19:27 |
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| jose__ | that is the problem here | Feb 03 19:27 |
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| schestowitz | So I throw it in first, then make sense of it | Feb 03 19:27 |
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| schestowitz | This is not just about Novell | Feb 03 19:28 |
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| jose__ | i know | Feb 03 19:28 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft might buy Novell | Feb 03 19:28 |
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| jose__ | but novell is the trickiest issue | Feb 03 19:28 |
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| jose__ | and the site is named boyco... | Feb 03 19:28 |
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| jose__ | i know | Feb 03 19:28 |
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| jose__ | in a year's time, this sort of processes might be pre-empted | Feb 03 19:28 |
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| jose__ | ms also will try to become a "member" | Feb 03 19:29 |
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| jose__ | you can always just go forward in every way | Feb 03 19:29 |
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| schestowitz | I don't follow | Feb 03 19:29 |
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| jose__ | but you would get more time commitments perhaps and lead to a product adopted more if the tricky issues were managed well | Feb 03 19:29 |
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| jose__ | ms being a member just means that they will complain that they are not being treated well.. that they are part of the gang | Feb 03 19:30 |
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| schestowitz | That already happens | Feb 03 19:30 |
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| schestowitz | In many places | Feb 03 19:30 |
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| schestowitz | They also hire so-called 'open source' analysts | Feb 03 19:30 |
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| jose__ | you can always just march forward as is, but with some organizing and partitioning, you might get help from those that might not help | Feb 03 19:31 |
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| schestowitz | When they put money in some coffers, that's the end of that | Feb 03 19:31 |
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| jose__ | people will help for what they value | Feb 03 19:31 |
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| jose__ | well, today, they are still mostly outside i think.. but i really don't know what other linux people think exactly | Feb 03 19:31 |
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| jose__ | anway | Feb 03 19:31 |
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| jose__ | this site has noncontroversial (if you are novell supporter) gems | Feb 03 19:32 |
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| jose__ | and the controversial ones | Feb 03 19:32 |
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| jose__ | i know the main message is boycott novell and related | Feb 03 19:32 |
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| schestowitz | Libya's Gadhafi Takes AU Reins, Promises Union Government < http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-02-03-v... >. Pentagon must be s*ing its pants now. | Feb 03 19:32 |
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| jose__ | but | Feb 03 19:32 |
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| schestowitz | Yes | Feb 03 19:32 |
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| schestowitz | But you can't accept only half the message | Feb 03 19:33 |
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| jose__ | will people chip in if they don't want to be associated with many of the articles being considered | Feb 03 19:33 |
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| schestowitz | It's like saying "trust me on Microsoft but not on Novell" | Feb 03 19:33 |
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| jose__ | i know the message | Feb 03 19:33 |
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| schestowitz | Or "trust me on GNOME but not on Mono" | Feb 03 19:33 |
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| jose__ | but you are asking for help | Feb 03 19:33 |
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| jose__ | and you might get more... | Feb 03 19:33 |
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| jose__ | ok.. whatever.. i just thinking out loud | Feb 03 19:33 |
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| schestowitz | Being adverse to consensus does not make something wrong | Feb 03 19:33 |
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| schestowitz | In fact, we need to challenge the myth | Feb 03 19:34 |
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| jose__ | some of the material is not hard material which means that you will lose support | Feb 03 19:34 |
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| schestowitz | To say "Linux is cool" is OK | Feb 03 19:34 |
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| schestowitz | To say "Microsoft is corrupt" is also OK, but some people will disagree | Feb 03 19:34 |
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| schestowitz | So you need to convince them | Feb 03 19:34 |
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| schestowitz | This isn't a "yes men" clubs of preach-to-choir | Feb 03 19:34 |
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| jose__ | on the convince issue | Feb 03 19:35 |
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| jose__ | there are gaps in bn | Feb 03 19:35 |
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| jose__ | it's expected | Feb 03 19:35 |
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| schestowitz | Needs background | Feb 03 19:35 |
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| jose__ | but will it be addressed directly now or not | Feb 03 19:35 |
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| schestowitz | That's why I link to older posts | Feb 03 19:35 |
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| jose__ | if you archive.. "who cares" | Feb 03 19:35 |
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| jose__ | but if you want to package.. you need to be more careful | Feb 03 19:35 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, but we don;t | Feb 03 19:35 |
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| jose__ | i know | Feb 03 19:35 |
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| schestowitz | It's also slow and laborious writing a boo | Feb 03 19:36 |
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| schestowitz | *k | Feb 03 19:36 |
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| jose__ | but some of the material is questionable.. | Feb 03 19:36 |
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| schestowitz | Fine | Feb 03 19:36 |
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| schestowitz | So be it | Feb 03 19:36 |
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| jose__ | i know it's slow | Feb 03 19:36 |
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| schestowitz | It looks like it | Feb 03 19:36 |
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| schestowitz | But regulars know better | Feb 03 19:36 |
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| jose__ | i'm thinking out loud and trying to figure out what you want | Feb 03 19:36 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: ah, okay | Feb 03 19:36 |
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| schestowitz | For the Wiki? | Feb 03 19:36 |
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| jose__ | anyway, tagging some pages is great | Feb 03 19:36 |
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| jose__ | this way you can manage things | Feb 03 19:36 |
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| schestowitz | One option is making indexes of posts | Feb 03 19:37 |
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| jose__ | if people have probs with a page they can complain | Feb 03 19:37 |
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| schestowitz | Groklaw has this. | Feb 03 19:37 |
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| schestowitz | This requires time | Feb 03 19:37 |
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| jose__ | and maybe a summary will cover the objections to the blog piece | Feb 03 19:37 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | Organization | Feb 03 19:37 |
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| jose__ | before indexing | Feb 03 19:37 |
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| jose__ | adding summaries and such.. so that these are indexed | Feb 03 19:37 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | Neat. I may not be much help, but I'll see what I can do. | Feb 03 19:38 |
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| jose__ | maybe wiki-ize the summary pages of each blog. | Feb 03 19:38 |
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| jose__ | also group blogs and have summaries of those | Feb 03 19:38 |
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| jose__ | wiki-ize all the summary content | Feb 03 19:38 |
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| jose__ | in the end, you may over-ride, but you want feedback and a forum where people can complain | Feb 03 19:39 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | As to the conflicts, they will always happen. | Feb 03 19:39 |
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| jose__ | bn is honest about hearing all sides | Feb 03 19:39 |
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| jose__ | but a large endeavor like this should not sweep that under the carpet | Feb 03 19:39 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: we have summaries for all posts | Feb 03 19:40 |
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| jose__ | conflicts are fine | Feb 03 19:40 |
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| schestowitz | Under "except" | Feb 03 19:40 |
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| jose__ | posts and comments/objections | Feb 03 19:40 |
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| schestowitz | One-line summary for each | Feb 03 19:40 |
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| jose__ | you need to address objections or else let them have their say | Feb 03 19:40 |
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| jose__ | if you do, you will be more convincing | Feb 03 19:40 |
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| jose__ | and not be labelled "so controversial" as I am sure some do | Feb 03 19:40 |
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| jose__ | let me repeat something that may have gotten lost | Feb 03 19:41 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: who would do all of this? | Feb 03 19:41 |
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| jose__ | post AND comments/objections should be summarized | Feb 03 19:41 |
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| jose__ | i would be more apt to participate if I felt the objections were being considered | Feb 03 19:41 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | community effort I would think | Feb 03 19:42 |
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| jose__ | even court rulings let dissenting judges have their say. | Feb 03 19:42 |
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| jose__ | yes, and the community helping would be larger the more fair the process was | Feb 03 19:42 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | It's easy for MS to attack one person, it's a lot harder for them to attack an entire community. | Feb 03 19:42 |
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| *MinceR (n=mincer@unaffiliated/mincer) has joined #boycottnovell | Feb 03 19:42 |
| jose__ | novell (via reps) should definitely have a seat at the table | Feb 03 19:42 |
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| jose__ | that is tricky but necessary | Feb 03 19:42 |
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| jose__ | if you want a product many will accept | Feb 03 19:43 |
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| jose__ | of course, some things on BN are not that controversial | Feb 03 19:43 |
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| jose__ | you can partition and those things people value the most will get done first | Feb 03 19:43 |
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| jose__ | ms antitrust should be high on the prio list of many | Feb 03 19:43 |
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| jose__ | i have my own pet topics as well for example | Feb 03 19:43 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: what's controversial? Mono? | Feb 03 19:44 |
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| jose__ | ok, individual items of individual posts have been controversial | Feb 03 19:44 |
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| jose__ | i know that mostly it's the regular novell or ms defenders that point them out | Feb 03 19:44 |
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| jose__ | but that doesn't mean they are always wrong | Feb 03 19:45 |
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| jose__ | shane for example has had a few complaints | Feb 03 19:45 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | Actually they are mostly wrong. About 90%. | Feb 03 19:45 |
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| jose__ | that would still leave 10% | Feb 03 19:45 |
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| jose__ | also, there are various levels of judging "proof" | Feb 03 19:45 |
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| jose__ | bn might be correct on many things | Feb 03 19:46 |
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| jose__ | but | Feb 03 19:46 |
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| jose__ | you might not be.. in any case, you aren't correct if you aren't convincing | Feb 03 19:46 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | And of the 10% it's the small stuff, like punctuation. | Feb 03 19:46 |
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| jose__ | and correlation does occasionally pass for proof | Feb 03 19:46 |
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| jose__ | in any argument | Feb 03 19:46 |
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| jose__ | not always The_Mad_Hatter.. though i do agree many of the big deal items | Feb 03 19:47 |
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| jose__ | were nitpicks in the big picture | Feb 03 19:47 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | Almost all the time jose__ | Feb 03 19:47 |
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| jose__ | we can all agree on this i think | Feb 03 19:48 |
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| jose__ | that a summary should cover the comments in some way | Feb 03 19:48 |
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| jose__ | ..the objections | Feb 03 19:48 |
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| jose__ | it doesn't have to be everything | Feb 03 19:48 |
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| jose__ | ok | Feb 03 19:48 |
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| jose__ | are the only people that think X the novell folks? | Feb 03 19:49 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: I thought about just closing comments and directing to IRC | Feb 03 19:49 |
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| schestowitz | This was you can argue in real-time | Feb 03 19:49 |
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| jose__ | if you think that is necessary that may be great | Feb 03 19:49 |
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| schestowitz | The issue is that it's not tied to the posts | Feb 03 19:49 |
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| schestowitz | IRC is free-flowing | Feb 03 19:49 |
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| jose__ | schestowitz, give instructions for people to post the link followed by the comment | Feb 03 19:49 |
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| jose__ | you can match up comments later that way | Feb 03 19:49 |
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| schestowitz | I've already closed 2006-2008 comment forms to reduce new SPAM. | Feb 03 19:50 |
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| jose__ | it's messy, but if that will help, do it.. feedback is valuable | Feb 03 19:50 |
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| schestowitz | I was getting like 300 spam per day | Feb 03 19:50 |
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| schestowitz | It was a waste of time to go through these for several hours per month | Feb 03 19:50 |
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| jose__ | static pages should help much i would always expect | Feb 03 19:50 |
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| jose__ | keep last 30 days dynamic and the rest static.. perhaps updated periodically based on comments on irc or email | Feb 03 19:51 |
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| jose__ | ok, i am thinking about load issues | Feb 03 19:51 |
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| jose__ | if time is the only issue | Feb 03 19:51 |
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| jose__ | perhaps you can give various other people access to review things that get trapped in the filters | Feb 03 19:52 |
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| jose__ | anyway, old stuff is mostly done. | Feb 03 19:52 |
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| schestowitz | Yes | Feb 03 19:52 |
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| schestowitz | But here's the thing | Feb 03 19:52 |
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| jose__ | Here is one important specific Novell issue | Feb 03 19:53 |
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| schestowitz | I don't know if a summary of it all will be read | Feb 03 19:53 |
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| schestowitz | People like short blog posts | Feb 03 19:53 |
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| jose__ | not a summary of everything | Feb 03 19:53 |
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| schestowitz | Books are long and not disparate. | Feb 03 19:53 |
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| jose__ | in a wiki.. people might find the key points of debate | Feb 03 19:53 |
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| schestowitz | The wiki ain't public now | Feb 03 19:53 |
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| schestowitz | Only mentioned in IRC for now | Feb 03 19:53 |
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| jose__ | others would work on keeping the summaries down | Feb 03 19:53 |
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| jose__ | but would have the points there and not have to go through all comments maybe | Feb 03 19:54 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: people don't contribute much | Feb 03 19:54 |
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| jose__ | hmmm | Feb 03 19:54 |
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| jose__ | but maybe more would...??? | Feb 03 19:54 |
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| schestowitz | And there's need for moderation/inspection | Feb 03 19:54 |
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| jose__ | let me get back to a key point on novell | Feb 03 19:54 |
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| schestowitz | I need to go any moment | Feb 03 19:54 |
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| jose__ | ok | Feb 03 19:54 |
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| jose__ | well there are two novell issues that bother me right now | Feb 03 19:55 |
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| jose__ | no just one thing | Feb 03 19:55 |
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| jose__ | they are the focus of this site, but some of what is pointed out about them are things others do | Feb 03 19:55 |
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| jose__ | in other words, the degrees of some things pointed here are matched perhaps by others | Feb 03 19:56 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I know. | Feb 03 19:56 |
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| schestowitz | I'm not sure what to do | Feb 03 19:56 |
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| jose__ | not everything but here you point to everything .. but only novell | Feb 03 19:56 |
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| jose__ | that's the sort of things that I think needs to be addressed | Feb 03 19:56 |
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| schestowitz | But I think time is well spent covering news items and developments (analysis). | Feb 03 19:56 |
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| jose__ | you may not blog it initially | Feb 03 19:56 |
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| jose__ | but feedback on a wiki or comments needs to account for this in some way | Feb 03 19:56 |
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| jose__ | --if we did a "boycottgoogle" they'd get trash as well | Feb 03 19:56 |
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| jose__ | so boycottnovell.. or maybe boycottFossThreats | Feb 03 19:57 |
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| jose__ | cannot go too hard on any company unfairly | Feb 03 19:57 |
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| schestowitz | But the domain is too late to chabge | Feb 03 19:57 |
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| schestowitz | (change | Feb 03 19:57 |
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| jose__ | the other companies and supporters may not contribute if they think a fine line divides them getting similar treatment | Feb 03 19:57 |
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| jose__ | i just threw that in ..about the domain | Feb 03 19:57 |
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| jose__ | anyway | Feb 03 19:58 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | The problem is that Novell made a choice. A choice that the community called them on. | Feb 03 19:58 |
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| jose__ | i knkow | Feb 03 19:58 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | They had an option to back off, to repudiate the choice, and they did not. So | Feb 03 19:58 |
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| jose__ | but some things said here apply to others (the lesser things) | Feb 03 19:58 |
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| jose__ | but others don't get the same harsh treatment.. except maybe in comments | Feb 03 19:58 |
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| jose__ | so there are the things where novell crossed the line | Feb 03 19:59 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | since they made the choice, they should suffer the consequences. | Feb 03 19:59 |
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| jose__ | and there is everything else which other bad corps also do | Feb 03 19:59 |
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| jose__ | to some extent anyway | Feb 03 19:59 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | Hell, they didn't cross the line, they nuked it. | Feb 03 19:59 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | And that's the point. As a corporation, you have to consider your choices. | Feb 03 19:59 |
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| jose__ | The_Mad_Hatter, so you are saying that if you go too far.. you will have all your dirty laundry spilled out.. | Feb 03 19:59 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | If you make the wrong choices, you are going to attract criticism. | Feb 03 20:00 |
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| jose__ | but if you stay within the line.. you can keep your dirty laundry hidden | Feb 03 20:00 |
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| jose__ | that might be reasonable | Feb 03 20:00 |
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| jose__ | in any case, that is a real issue | Feb 03 20:00 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | No, I'm saying that when you make a decision that hurts people, you cannot expect that they won't get upset. | Feb 03 20:00 |
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| *schestowitz will be back at 10 | Feb 03 20:00 |
| jose__ | byw, i know bn criticizes many others | Feb 03 20:00 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | See you later. | Feb 03 20:00 |
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| jose__ | what I am saying is that the focus here is predominantly on novell (ms, etc) | Feb 03 20:01 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | Right. BN exists to criticise. | Feb 03 20:01 |
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| jose__ | and some people would prefer fair coverage | Feb 03 20:01 |
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| jose__ | which would imply others getting some heat as well.. | Feb 03 20:01 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | The focus is on companies who have hurt the community. | Feb 03 20:01 |
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| jose__ | or novell being called out only on the harsher items | Feb 03 20:01 |
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| jose__ | it's tough for BN because we don't have court power to go in and dig things | Feb 03 20:01 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | Ever hear of Maple Leaf Foods? | Feb 03 20:02 |
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| jose__ | also, to make a case, you have to go deep. | Feb 03 20:02 |
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| jose__ | so i understand | Feb 03 20:02 |
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| jose__ | maple leaf food.. no | Feb 03 20:02 |
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| jose__ | i would have googled, but since you seem to know and have a point in mind.. | Feb 03 20:03 |
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| jose__ | i'll just wait for your story. | Feb 03 20:03 |
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| jose__ | :-) | Feb 03 20:03 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | Bad bacteria outbreak at factory - several deaths from tainted food. | Feb 03 20:03 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | Company didn't try to avoid the issue. Company took full responsibility, paid compensation, and worked to make the product safe. | Feb 03 20:03 |
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| jose__ | ok | Feb 03 20:03 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | Corporate responsibility in action. | Feb 03 20:04 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | Novell didn't do that. | Feb 03 20:04 |
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| jose__ | let me mention something different besides the parity thing | Feb 03 20:05 |
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| The_Mad_Hatter | Their actions were irresponsible, and they didn't own up to the problem, or try to fix is. | Feb 03 20:05 |
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| jose__ | roy might say something about the stock price or the likely fortunes of ms | Feb 03 20:05 |
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| jose__ | that is fine.. but speaking on the future clearly means you are guessing in some ways.. | Feb 03 20:05 |
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| jose__ | now, you can do an analysis to justify your hunches | Feb 03 20:05 |
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| jose__ | but if that analysis isn't balanced, you aren't being convincing and may in fact not even be correct | Feb 03 20:06 |
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| jose__ | eg | Feb 03 20:06 |
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| jose__ | many pointed about how every stock is basically going down' | Feb 03 20:06 |
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| jose__ | so while i like the fact msft is going down | Feb 03 20:06 |
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| jose__ | i dont necessarily think all the conclusions are supported | Feb 03 20:06 |
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| jose__ | if you include too many of these unsupported points | Feb 03 20:06 |
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| jose__ | you lose support yourself in the story you are trying to tell | Feb 03 20:07 |
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| jose__ | there is enough here on bn to keep readers paying attention | Feb 03 20:07 |
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| jose__ | but spending extra time to package something should address these points (at least for me) for it to be worth the time | Feb 03 20:07 |
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| jose__ | i guess i am talking about my own reservations.. in considering potential commitment | Feb 03 20:07 |
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| jose__ | ....... | Feb 03 20:08 |
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| jose__ | we can start by categorizing pages we each like.. a wiki would be great for this | Feb 03 20:09 |
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| *The_Mad_Hatter has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") | Feb 03 20:10 |
| jose__ | i think it is fine to just organize.. cross-ref, tag, etc.. but summaries (which could factor into the tagging, x-ref, etc) should be careful about separating the more controversial points from the rest. | Feb 03 20:13 |
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| jose__ | schestowitz, maybe a volunteer could get their own subsection in the wiki and they can then do their summaries, tagging, referencing, etc. | Feb 03 20:16 |
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| jose__ | this is what i was attempting at thetuxproject some time ago | Feb 03 20:16 |
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| jose__ | this is like the git vs the cvs model | Feb 03 20:16 |
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| jose__ | then from those components a main wiki can be formed. | Feb 03 20:17 |
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| jose__ | you can have different restrictions | Feb 03 20:17 |
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| jose__ | the subsections (the volunteer sections) could do much of the hunting and summarizing | Feb 03 20:17 |
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| jose__ | those doing "good" jobs would be most likely to have their work reused for the main official packaging | Feb 03 20:17 |
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| jose__ | at the volunteer level, maybe let the volunteers get maximum write rights and everyone else limited if any write rights | Feb 03 20:18 |
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| jose__ | at the high level, you'd be more stringent in who can change the wiki | Feb 03 20:18 |
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| jose__ | schestowitz, I am going to go, but let me know if you like the idea just suggested.. between this comment and above when The_Mad_Hatter left (at 14 past the hour) | Feb 03 20:19 |
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| jose__ | later.. | Feb 03 20:19 |
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| jose__ | before i go... | Feb 03 20:21 |
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| jose__ | The_Mad_Hatter: the community has corporate participants. It's fine if you want to appeal to the typical nonprofit mindset mostly.. | Feb 03 20:22 |
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| jose__ | but if you want something that the corps will back.. you have to be balanced if possible | Feb 03 20:23 |
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| jose__ | i know that bn shows the side that gets filtered in other news sites | Feb 03 20:23 |
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| jose__ | i'm not trying to give an opinion one way or the other | Feb 03 20:23 |
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| jose__ | but i do think a wider audience will be reached if some of the more controversial items can be fixed/cleaned/dispatched to the "speculation" bin/ etc. | Feb 03 20:24 |
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| jose__ | btw, what do i know about getting corp backing.. that's not what i aim for.. nor do i think i can pass those tests | Feb 03 20:24 |
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| jose__ | anyway.. the fewer loose ends, the fewer excuses you give those attacking you | Feb 03 20:25 |
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| jose__ | [i'll have to remember to ask the mad hatter to read the irc archives..] | Feb 03 20:25 |
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| jose__ | signing off. | Feb 03 20:25 |
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| *MinceR_ is now known as MinceR | Feb 03 21:17 |
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| *schestowitz back | Feb 03 22:10 |
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| schestowitz | Exploding mobile phone kills Chinese man < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/03... > | Feb 03 22:47 |
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| schestowitz | Hitachi takes losses, chops jobs < http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/02... > | Feb 03 22:47 |
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| schestowitz | There are many ways to read "chops Jobs" | Feb 03 22:47 |
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| schestowitz | The Web site is stable again (we were having hosting issues). You might want to see http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/31/h... (Bill Gates on Linux@Intel: “This Huge Driver Group Scares Me.”) | Feb 03 22:52 |
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| schestowitz | Ridiculous Criminal Trial Of Google Execs Begins In Italy < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090202/2310143614.shtml > | Feb 03 22:54 |
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| *Ziggyfish (n=brendan@61-8-103-22.intrapower.net.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Feb 03 22:54 |
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| jose__ | schestowitz, i just sent you email | Feb 03 23:00 |
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| jose__ | do you think it could be a good idea to put the write-up on a wiki? | Feb 03 23:00 |
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| jose__ | reply to this or any question later if/when you find time. | Feb 03 23:01 |
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| jose__ | thanks | Feb 03 23:01 |
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| schestowitz | Hey | Feb 03 23:01 |
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| schestowitz | wb | Feb 03 23:01 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I do. | Feb 03 23:02 |
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| jose__ | when i read over it.. my eyes glaze | Feb 03 23:02 |
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| schestowitz | I can create some pages | Feb 03 23:02 |
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| jose__ | maybe it's because i have written and rewritten on so many occasions | Feb 03 23:02 |
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| schestowitz | Let me create posts index | Feb 03 23:02 |
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| jose__ | if you think it's a good idea, then ok, it can be uploaded | Feb 03 23:03 |
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| jose__ | i guess i'd need to know the rules for editing | Feb 03 23:03 |
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| twitter | jose__, Roy is very careful about what he says and usually backs it up with links. "Detractors" are welcome to voice their usually wrong opinion, but Roy should not second guess them and censor himself with a "speculation" bin. | Feb 03 23:04 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php?t... | Feb 03 23:04 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: the Wiki is still undeer wraps in a way, so no rules | Feb 03 23:04 |
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| twitter | BN's format is good, and site growth shows that people like what they find there. | Feb 03 23:04 |
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| schestowitz | twitter: I didn't like the phrase speculation bin, either. | Feb 03 23:05 |
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| jose__ | twitter, did you read over everything i wrote during that section in irc before i left | Feb 03 23:05 |
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| schestowitz | Many of my so-called speculations turned out to be true. | Feb 03 23:05 |
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| schestowitz | twitter: but we need index | Feb 03 23:05 |
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| twitter | I think so jose. | Feb 03 23:05 |
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| twitter | Indexing is good. | Feb 03 23:05 |
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| schestowitz | One reader made an ODF and Samba index for us. | Feb 03 23:05 |
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| schestowitz | A Wiki would be better because anyone can edit | Feb 03 23:05 |
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| jose__ | is the "speculation" bin what is turning off or something more general about what i said | Feb 03 23:05 |
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| PetoKraus | right, my second machine is blob-free :) | Feb 03 23:06 |
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| PetoKraus | if we omit firmware. | Feb 03 23:07 |
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| jose__ | roy, would it be useful to find articles and create (a) tag words and phrases for the main entry, (b) other tags phrases for the comments, (c) possibly summaries? | Feb 03 23:07 |
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| jose__ | or is there a search mechanism that would make doing that work wasted time? | Feb 03 23:08 |
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| *ChanServ gives channel operator status to [H]omer | Feb 03 23:08 |
| [H]omer | I'm baaaaack! | Feb 03 23:08 |
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| jose__ | where do we draw the line between what eg google can put together and what requires higher level categorization thinking | Feb 03 23:08 |
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| twitter | hello homer | Feb 03 23:09 |
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| [H]omer | hi t | Feb 03 23:09 |
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| schestowitz | wb, [H]omer | Feb 03 23:09 |
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| schestowitz | What happened? | Feb 03 23:09 |
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| [H]omer | Hey Roy | Feb 03 23:09 |
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| schestowitz | We had hosting hell | Feb 03 23:10 |
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| [H]omer | What's new? | Feb 03 23:10 |
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| schestowitz | Long weekend.. | Feb 03 23:10 |
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| [H]omer | Yeah I heard | Feb 03 23:10 |
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| [H]omer | So how many hits does it actually take to bring BN down, anyway :) | Feb 03 23:10 |
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| schestowitz | PetoKraus: see this new interview: http://anuj360.wordpress.com/2009/01/... | Feb 03 23:10 |
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| schestowitz | "Stallman: If you want to keep your freedom, you must be prepared occasionally to make sacrifices to defend it. | Feb 03 23:10 |
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| schestowitz | We in the free software movement constantly work to make it easier for computer users to keep their freedom. But we have not yet made it 100% painless. Thus, using free software occasionally requires an | Feb 03 23:10 |
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| schestowitz | inconvenience. Those are the sacrifices needed in our field to maintain our freedom." | Feb 03 23:10 |
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| twitter | ~E6 | Feb 03 23:10 |
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| schestowitz | [H]omer: the DB was brought down | Feb 03 23:11 |
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| schestowitz | I don't know how much traffic we get | Feb 03 23:11 |
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| schestowitz | I divert away to Coral disributed cache | Feb 03 23:11 |
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| twitter | The only thing more difficult than freedom is slavery... | Feb 03 23:11 |
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| schestowitz | Some of it bounced back to Bn | Feb 03 23:11 |
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| [H]omer | AH OK | Feb 03 23:12 |
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| jose__ | schestowitz, i got a message that there was a loop maybe | Feb 03 23:12 |
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| schestowitz | I exposed the flatfish today | Feb 03 23:12 |
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| jose__ | the solution explained was that the main server would have to filter out | Feb 03 23:12 |
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| twitter | what did flatfish do this time? | Feb 03 23:12 |
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| jose__ | queries from the cache network itself | Feb 03 23:12 |
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| schestowitz | An old friend of him apprently dislikes him enough to pursue this. | Feb 03 23:12 |
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| Ziggyfish | 'When almost 1 in 2 Windows PCs is a zombie, then the notion of “data theft” is like the notion of possession theft in a city where only half the buildings have doors.' | Feb 03 23:12 |
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| Ziggyfish | t very interesting how the botnet controllers have not used these botnets to find exploits in encryption algorithms. | Feb 03 23:12 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: yes, Coral is not predictable | Feb 03 23:13 |
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| jose__ | there was a particular string from the User id that could be used to filter it out | Feb 03 23:13 |
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| schestowitz | twitter: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux... | Feb 03 23:13 |
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| schestowitz | brb | Feb 03 23:13 |
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| [H]omer | I got a strange comment on my "Why DotGNU is wrong" article, from somewhere in Oz. The style was remarkably similar to Waugh. Hehe. He got his answer though (longer than the original article). | Feb 03 23:13 |
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| twitter | botnet owners don't need to break encryption, they own the machines and can get the info straight. | Feb 03 23:13 |
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| MinceR | http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=0... | Feb 03 23:14 |
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| MinceR | windows ce is dying, confirms microsoft | Feb 03 23:14 |
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| [H]omer | hehe | Feb 03 23:14 |
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| twitter | Did you see that M$ has surrendered Netbooks too? http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,... | Feb 03 23:14 |
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| twitter | http://news.slashdot.org/firehose.pl?o... | Feb 03 23:14 |
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| twitter | Vista 7 for netbooks will only be a "starter" version. | Feb 03 23:15 |
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| twitter | I think that and the BSD news takes M$ out of mobile computing all together. | Feb 03 23:15 |
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| [H]omer | "Like other Starter editions, that netbook will only run three applications at a time, an arbitrary limitation the software imposes." | Feb 03 23:15 |
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| [H]omer | LOL | Feb 03 23:16 |
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| [H]omer | Yeah, that sounds "great" | Feb 03 23:16 |
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| MinceR | lol | Feb 03 23:16 |
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| MinceR | even windows mobile can do more than that | Feb 03 23:16 |
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| [H]omer | My Sinclair/Timex spectrum can do more than that! | Feb 03 23:16 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: yes, that's what happens | Feb 03 23:17 |
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| Ziggyfish | MinceR, That's the who idea, so as to remove the need for netbooks | Feb 03 23:17 |
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| MinceR | by making dumb and useless netbooks? | Feb 03 23:17 |
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| [H]omer | In fact, I have an HP calculator that can do better than Vista (seriously) | Feb 03 23:17 |
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| MinceR | even though users can choose more powerful ones running linux? | Feb 03 23:17 |
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| Ziggyfish | MinceR, yes | Feb 03 23:17 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: yes, i modified .htaccess | Feb 03 23:17 |
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| MinceR | i doubt i'll ever understand those nutcases | Feb 03 23:17 |
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| schestowitz | RewriteCond %{HTTP_USER_AGENT} !^CoralWebPrx | Feb 03 23:17 |
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| schestowitz | I don't think this helped though | Feb 03 23:18 |
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| twitter | MincR, they must think they can strong arm the OEM and Vendors into supporting them. | Feb 03 23:18 |
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| [H]omer | Roy, can you run BadBehavior under WordPress. It'll probably take care of all the bad bots | Feb 03 23:18 |
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| schestowitz | MinceR: wince died long ago | Feb 03 23:18 |
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| schestowitz | It's too $$ey to maintain | Feb 03 23:18 |
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| jose__ | schestowitz, i don't know the problem or the solution, but i came across that clue earlier (not sure if online google or if from firefox itself.. don't remember) | Feb 03 23:18 |
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| MinceR | windows mobile is wince | Feb 03 23:18 |
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| schestowitz | Windows Mobile likewise. They have build their own kernel | Feb 03 23:18 |
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| schestowitz | Same issue in Vista7 | Feb 03 23:19 |
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| MinceR | and wm6 was released not too long ago | Feb 03 23:19 |
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| MinceR | also note that m$ doesn't seem to care how much money they're bleeding | Feb 03 23:19 |
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| MinceR | at least until this point | Feb 03 23:19 |
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| schestowitz | They were supposed to build it with a new lean kernel, but it was vapourware. They just rejigged Vista | Feb 03 23:19 |
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| jose__ | microsoft is trying to protect their high-margin sales from their netbook offerings.. but they can't protect it from linux. | Feb 03 23:19 |
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| oiaohm | Linux hater blog is back. | Feb 03 23:19 |
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| Ziggyfish | brb, got to do some work | Feb 03 23:19 |
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| jose__ | they can hope that netbooks remain very weak and unlikely to run many things at once | Feb 03 23:20 |
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| [H]omer | Is there any real relationship between the Windows 7 kernel and the Singularity Project, I wonder, or was it all Vapour€® and hot air? | Feb 03 23:20 |
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| schestowitz | Start Ediciton of Vista7=EDGI | Feb 03 23:20 |
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| oiaohm | http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/ | Feb 03 23:20 |
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| twitter | Abandoning Netbooks pretty much proves Vista 7 is another bloated pig. | Feb 03 23:20 |
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| schestowitz | I was going to write about it. Someone from FSFE told me about it | Feb 03 23:20 |
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| jose__ | just realized you just said what i said, MinceR | Feb 03 23:20 |
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| oiaohm | Singularity kernel exists | Feb 03 23:20 |
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| MinceR | :) | Feb 03 23:20 |
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| oiaohm | There is no link between windows 7 and Singularity | Feb 03 23:20 |
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| [H]omer | oiaohm, yes but does it have anything to do with & | Feb 03 23:20 |
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| oiaohm | Singularity is a per .net OS right down to driver level. | Feb 03 23:21 |
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| [H]omer | Sorry too slow :) | Feb 03 23:21 |
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| schestowitz | I think Vista7 will kill itself on netbooks | Feb 03 23:21 |
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| schestowitz | Not Linux | Feb 03 23:21 |
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| twitter | oiaohm, except the black hole M$ is becoming. | Feb 03 23:21 |
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| schestowitz | So *that's* how they make it 'lean' | Feb 03 23:21 |
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| MinceR | singularity is not windows, therefore it isn't in any better position to run windows apps than free os-es are | Feb 03 23:21 |
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| schestowitz | They make it useless and crippled | Feb 03 23:21 |
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| oiaohm | You can download Singularitys source code twitter | Feb 03 23:21 |
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| MinceR | therefore it doesn't have the one thing that keeps users locked into windows | Feb 03 23:21 |
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| schestowitz | This way they can maybe make more than $5 per copy of WIndows | Feb 03 23:21 |
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| MinceR | therefore it's doomed to fail | Feb 03 23:21 |
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| [H]omer | $3 in Africa | Feb 03 23:21 |
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| MinceR | microsoft is locked into a lose-lose situation | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| twitter | open is not free oiaohm | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| MinceR | shared is not open | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| MinceR | :) | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| oiaohm | I know twitter | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| schestowitz | [H]omer: we don't get bad bots | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| schestowitz | Not that I notice | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| [H]omer | Really? | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| schestowitz | I don't know | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| schestowitz | Doesn't seem like it | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| schestowitz | BB is old | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| [H]omer | My BadBahavior logs are ful of them | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| schestowitz | Like 2004-5 | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| schestowitz | It can kill legitimate stuff | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| schestowitz | I know the author | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| oiaohm | MS has a min profit they have to make to stay operating closed source. | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| schestowitz | This was discused a lot in WordPress-hackers at the time | Feb 03 23:22 |
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| MinceR | also, singularity can't use windows drivers | Feb 03 23:23 |
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| oiaohm | Developers and maintainers of a OS don't come cheep. | Feb 03 23:23 |
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| oiaohm | Nice bit Linux will have a simpler time nicking and using singularity drivers. | Feb 03 23:23 |
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| schestowitz | Embedded Windows seems dull | Feb 03 23:23 |
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| schestowitz | They lose to Linux | Feb 03 23:23 |
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| [H]omer | MinceR, I think that's the main thing about the Windows platform - it's entrenched, and therefore switching it to something radically different like Singularity would be nealry impossible | Feb 03 23:24 |
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| schestowitz | And Windows embedded they already give almost for free (i.e. no revenue there) | Feb 03 23:24 |
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| oiaohm | Windows is losing on many frounts. | Feb 03 23:24 |
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| schestowitz | They do it alone. | Feb 03 23:24 |
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| twitter | GNU/Linux works now and has a tremendous community. Who's going to want to leave that? | Feb 03 23:24 |
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| MinceR | [H]omer: exactly | Feb 03 23:24 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft does it itself. Windows = the wanker of operating systems. | Feb 03 23:24 |
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| jose__ | paying bsd devs i suppose | Feb 03 23:24 |
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| oiaohm | MS idea was that they would slowly get everyone using more .net applications then use a Hypervisor to run like Windows 7 in the transition. | Feb 03 23:24 |
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| oiaohm | to singularity | Feb 03 23:25 |
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| twitter | don't say such bad things about Wankers. | Feb 03 23:25 |
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| MinceR | lol | Feb 03 23:25 |
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| MinceR | well said, twitter | Feb 03 23:25 |
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| oiaohm | MS has major problems. Linux runs on many different cpu types effectively. Singlarity is about staying competitive in that market. | Feb 03 23:25 |
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| MinceR | oiaohm: i can use a hypervisor on a real os, too | Feb 03 23:25 |
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| schestowitz | [H]omer: Windows on some form factors is $0-5 in the US | Feb 03 23:25 |
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| [H]omer | MinceR, except possibly with emulation (e.g. Mac Classic -> Mac OS X). But Microsoft's development frameworks are equally inflexible (e.g. DirectX) so... | Feb 03 23:25 |
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| MinceR | i don't have to rely in m$ crap to do that :> | Feb 03 23:25 |
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| oiaohm | MS never dreamed Linux would have hit so soon. | Feb 03 23:25 |
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| schestowitz | Office as 'top-up/add-on' is also falling to cheap territories | Feb 03 23:26 |
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| MinceR | did they really believe they could keep OEMs in a stranglehold forever? | Feb 03 23:26 |
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| schestowitz | OOXML is their 'product'. It make people hostages | Feb 03 23:26 |
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| PetoKraus | schestowitz: it's frankly, rubbish | Feb 03 23:26 |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: one answer to the stranglehold is yes | Feb 03 23:26 |
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| schestowitz | [H]omer: some of your PDFs are PageRank 5 or | Feb 03 23:26 |
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| schestowitz | 6 | Feb 03 23:26 |
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| oiaohm | MS also though patents would save there ass as well. | Feb 03 23:27 |
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| [H]omer | oiaohm, Netbooks have a lot to do with the sudden surge in Linux uptake (Microsoft admit this, in their explanation of profit losses) | Feb 03 23:27 |
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| oiaohm | So preventing Open Source. | Feb 03 23:27 |
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| MinceR | they forgot that some of their competitors hold patents too | Feb 03 23:27 |
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| MinceR | perhaps they hope we've forgot that too | Feb 03 23:27 |
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| oiaohm | First Netbook was released in 1994 [H]omer | Feb 03 23:27 |
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| oiaohm | They are not even new. Just people took interest this time. | Feb 03 23:27 |
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| MinceR | the old subnotebooks were expensive, oiaohm | Feb 03 23:28 |
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| oiaohm | Most only sold in the japan market. | Feb 03 23:28 |
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| MinceR | the new thing about netbooks is that they're cheap | Feb 03 23:28 |
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| [H]omer | Roy, yeah I'm also number one for "Comes vs Microsoft" on Google [cool] | Feb 03 23:28 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: the success of Linux is inversely proportional to *real* cost of Windows | Feb 03 23:28 |
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| MinceR | (i'm not sure that merits a new name, though) | Feb 03 23:28 |
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| schestowitz | Vista = $710 in Holland | Feb 03 23:28 |
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| schestowitz | But no-one buys it | Feb 03 23:28 |
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| [H]omer | oiaohm, yes I actually have a Psion Netbook at home (running Linux now) | Feb 03 23:28 |
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| oiaohm | No MinceR the Netbooks in the japan market were always cheeper than notebooks by a long way. | Feb 03 23:28 |
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| MinceR | ic | Feb 03 23:28 |
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| schestowitz | So they dump $50 copies at OEMs | Feb 03 23:28 |
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| [H]omer | oiaohm, It originally ran SymbianOS | Feb 03 23:29 |
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| schestowitz | And $5 for XP on subnotebooks | Feb 03 23:29 |
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| MinceR | oiaohm: what did they run? | Feb 03 23:29 |
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| oiaohm | The ones in the Japan market mixture of SymbianOS and Linux and BSD. | Feb 03 23:29 |
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| jose__ | ms can use proxies to do the patent attacks | Feb 03 23:29 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: subnotebooks now are about price | Feb 03 23:29 |
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| jose__ | foss is open | Feb 03 23:29 |
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| schestowitz | Intel dumped its margins | Feb 03 23:29 |
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| schestowitz | Now the saw profit falling 95%!!! | Feb 03 23:30 |
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| oiaohm | There were some rare windows CE ones | Feb 03 23:30 |
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| MinceR | i think their opponents are motivated to research and see through the proxies :> | Feb 03 23:30 |
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| [H]omer | oiaohm, didn't the SHarp Zarius run 98? | Feb 03 23:30 |
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| oiaohm | Anyone who claims Linux has had 100 percent of the netbook market is a idiot don't know there history. | Feb 03 23:30 |
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| oiaohm | Sharp Zarius Linux out box skined to look like 98 | Feb 03 23:30 |
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| schestowitz | I saw subnotebooks at work in 2005 | Feb 03 23:31 |
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| schestowitz | Veyr expensive | Feb 03 23:31 |
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| schestowitz | Like $1000 | Feb 03 23:31 |
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| schestowitz | Running Fisher Price edition of Windows (XP) | Feb 03 23:31 |
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| [H]omer | oiaohm, who's claiming "Linux has had 100 percent"? | Feb 03 23:31 |
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| PetoKraus | i think the guy - anuj - doesn't know what is he talking about | Feb 03 23:31 |
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| jose__ | MinceR, i worry the opponents won't retaliate when proxies attack.. retaliation is mad | Feb 03 23:31 |
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| oiaohm | Some of the MS guys saying it lost market [H]omer | Feb 03 23:32 |
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| jose__ | also, some opponents don't mind patents | Feb 03 23:32 |
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| schestowitz | Linux 'Defenders' in the headline again today | Feb 03 23:32 |
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| oiaohm | Ok linux might be back to 20 percet but it not going to let MS lift prices. | Feb 03 23:32 |
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| schestowitz | OIn promised me an exclusive interview/breaking story too | Feb 03 23:32 |
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| [H]omer | oiaohm, "losing the market" is not 0% | Feb 03 23:32 |
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| jose__ | patents can be a way to separate the proprietary foss-derived material from the base foss | Feb 03 23:32 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters... | Feb 03 23:32 |
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| schestowitz | Losing the market is for Microsoft to go into debt | Feb 03 23:33 |
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| schestowitz | And that's already happeneing | Feb 03 23:33 |
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| oiaohm | Lossing profit percentage. | Feb 03 23:33 |
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| schestowitz | Motley Fool, MSNBS and so on obscure the reality for the Vole | Feb 03 23:33 |
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| *r0ver (n=r0ver@200.68.91.21) has left #boycottnovell | Feb 03 23:33 |
| schestowitz | They omit all those details | Feb 03 23:33 |
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| oiaohm | MS does not need to lose market to die. | Feb 03 23:33 |
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| schestowitz | Like the US omits details like its support for Saddam | Feb 03 23:33 |
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| [H]omer | oiaohm, in fact that kind of attitude seems to be Microsoft's biggest problem. To them, anything less than 100% dominance is a "loss". That's sick and immoral thinking. That's the Microsoft/Corporatist way, though. | Feb 03 23:34 |
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| oiaohm | You can kill a company just buy cutting its means to make a high profit percentage. | Feb 03 23:34 |
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| jose__ | the netbook linux share is proof of sorts that the 1% desktop quoted figure is (a) fake and/or (b) due to market distortions of some kind | Feb 03 23:34 |
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| schestowitz | Windows revenues dove 11%, days MS | Feb 03 23:35 |
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| oiaohm | Not really. | Feb 03 23:35 |
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| schestowitz | I reckon it may be more | Feb 03 23:35 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft financing is fradulent | Feb 03 23:35 |
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| schestowitz | fact BTW | Feb 03 23:35 |
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| [H]omer | oiaohm, If they have a flawed business strategy that depends on fleecing customers, yes | Feb 03 23:35 |
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| schestowitz | Someone blew the whistle on them and was bribe to STFU | Feb 03 23:35 |
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| schestowitz | SEC got sort os bribed too | Feb 03 23:35 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft excuse: "everyone's doing it" | Feb 03 23:35 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, they do | Feb 03 23:35 |
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| oiaohm | [H]omer: when is proritity software business not exactly abotu fleecing customers | Feb 03 23:36 |
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| schestowitz | Maybe that explains an avalanche of banks and companies.. | Feb 03 23:36 |
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| oiaohm | Simple fact software costs bugger all to mass produce. | Feb 03 23:36 |
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| [H]omer | Business should not be about the quest for dominance, and the destruction of others, it should be about cooperating in a Free Market to provide subsistence | Feb 03 23:36 |
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| oiaohm | closed source software model is exactly about the quest for dominance | Feb 03 23:37 |
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| [H]omer | yes | Feb 03 23:37 |
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| schestowitz | [H]omer: not *that* definition of "Free market" | Feb 03 23:37 |
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| schestowitz | Free market is like "tough love" | Feb 03 23:37 |
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| schestowitz | It's a funny phrase | Feb 03 23:37 |
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| schestowitz | Chomsky on "Free markets": http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SgF... | Feb 03 23:37 |
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| [H]omer | See my previous explanation of the differences between anarchy and freedom | Feb 03 23:38 |
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| [H]omer | Ref: Stallman "Freedom vs Power" | Feb 03 23:38 |
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| schestowitz | Yes | Feb 03 23:38 |
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| schestowitz | Whose power? | Feb 03 23:38 |
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| *ushimitsudoki1 (n=ushimits@p5012-ipad13yosemiya.okinawa.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #boycottnovell | Feb 03 23:38 |
| schestowitz | I give you power, so long as I keep power over you | Feb 03 23:38 |
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| [H]omer | hehe | Feb 03 23:38 |
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| schestowitz | I give you rifle, not go to Vietnam | Feb 03 23:39 |
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| schestowitz | *now | Feb 03 23:39 |
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| [H]omer | That's American "Patriotism" in a nutshell. "Your Freedom is our (gov) Power" | Feb 03 23:40 |
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| schestowitz | Sheesh | Feb 03 23:40 |
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| schestowitz | You can't say that | Feb 03 23:40 |
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| [H]omer | Yup | Feb 03 23:40 |
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| [H]omer | too late | Feb 03 23:40 |
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| oiaohm | That is one of the big mistakes Open Source is not anarchy. | Feb 03 23:40 |
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| schestowitz | It would be if Novell/Waugh get their way | Feb 03 23:40 |
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| oiaohm | There is no way open source could exist if it was. | Feb 03 23:40 |
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| [H]omer | oiaohm, neither is Free Software | Feb 03 23:40 |
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| schestowitz | Novell will buy patents for us | Feb 03 23:40 |
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| schestowitz | So that we can buy the 'safe' SLE* | Feb 03 23:41 |
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| schestowitz | Patents=fix for the system (to ensure monopolies endure) | Feb 03 23:41 |
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| oiaohm | MS has been restruct for crunch. | Feb 03 23:41 |
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| schestowitz | http://techdirt.com/articles/20... | Feb 03 23:41 |
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| oiaohm | Novell really did not buy patents. | Feb 03 23:41 |
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| schestowitz | This is new: http://techdirt.com/articles/20... | Feb 03 23:41 |
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| schestowitz | Watch what Apple said about patents | Feb 03 23:41 |
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| schestowitz | Bloody hypocrites | Feb 03 23:41 |
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| oiaohm | MS is paying Novell more for use of Novell patents. | Feb 03 23:42 |
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| [H]omer | BSD = anarchy. Windows (EULA) = slavery. GPL = freedom (protected freedom) | Feb 03 23:42 |
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| schestowitz | They stole from everyone | Feb 03 23:42 |
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| schestowitz | They feared patents | Feb 03 23:42 |
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| schestowitz | Now they bully everyone with them. | Feb 03 23:42 |
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| schestowitz | Like MS | Feb 03 23:42 |
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| schestowitz | "For all the talk among patent system defenders about how patents are most necessary for young startup companies that need to grow, most tech startups couldn't care much less about patents (other than as a bogus currency to increase their valuation in talking to VCs). Startups are focused on actually building a product and getting it out to the market." | Feb 03 23:42 |
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| schestowitz | " Instead, what we see time and time again is that it's the big, more established companies that use patents to stifle startups, rather than the other way around. Startups innovate, while big companies litigate. " | Feb 03 23:42 |
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| schestowitz | "The company was incredibly open in sharing ideas and concepts, and wasn't going around threatening others for ripping off its IP (that did come later... especially with the graphical user interface, which Jobs himself admitted "ripping off" from Xerox... which had "ripped it off" already from SRI). It's really only when you're afraid of competing in the marketplace that you rely on patents." | Feb 03 23:42 |
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| schestowitz | "When you're young and innovative you focus on the possibilities and opportunities in front of you, rather than on ways to block others from innovating." | Feb 03 23:42 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: not ture | Feb 03 23:43 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft pays Novell to extinguish RehHat with poisonware | Feb 03 23:43 |
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| [H]omer | Patents do not support the "abundance" model (as Miguel might say). | Feb 03 23:43 |
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| schestowitz | So that people need to repurchase vounchers (MS calls them "patent royalties" now) | Feb 03 23:43 |
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| oiaohm | There is legal quick sand with those vouchers | Feb 03 23:44 |
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| oiaohm | For MS. | Feb 03 23:44 |
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| oiaohm | Novell wrote MS up as a distributitor. | Feb 03 23:44 |
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| oiaohm | Always watch you back with Novell they will stick a knife in where they can. | Feb 03 23:45 |
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| [H]omer | I think the arguments over patents are pretty cut and dried, and there's little left to say. Those who continue to support them have an intractable agenda of greed, so unless the laws can be changed by the people's consensus, the "knowledge harvesters" will continue their pillaging of the human mind. | Feb 03 23:45 |
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| oiaohm | Note MS being a distributitor means GPLv3 clauses do apply. | Feb 03 23:46 |
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| [H]omer | I read somewhere that MS employees are banned from viewing GPL code | Feb 03 23:47 |
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| oiaohm | Correct most closed source companies ban it. | Feb 03 23:47 |
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| oiaohm | GPL viral effect can destroy them. | Feb 03 23:47 |
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| MinceR | got to keep their minds closed | Feb 03 23:48 |
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| oiaohm | MS hate GPL because it can destroy them with one mistake. | Feb 03 23:48 |
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| MinceR | m$ hates gpl because using it would mean giving up some of the absolute control they covet so much | Feb 03 23:48 |
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| [H]omer | "from what we know about Microsoft policies (right or wrong) their employees are barred from looking at code under certain licenses (GPL being one of them" ~ Miguel de Icaza, http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foun... | Feb 03 23:49 |
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| MinceR | bsdl, on the other hand, they see as a gift that they deserve | Feb 03 23:50 |
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| [H]omer | Consider the above statement from de Icaza. Now consider how MS developed their ODF plugin for Office? | Feb 03 23:51 |
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| [H]omer | Allegedly, ODF cannot be properly implemented without referencing the sources to OpenOffice.org | Feb 03 23:51 |
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| [H]omer | Hmm, I see a contradiction | Feb 03 23:51 |
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| schestowitz | World of Goo Publisher Files for Bankruptcy < http://blog.wired.com/games/2009... > | Feb 03 23:53 |
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| schestowitz | [H]omer: yes, I saw that Miguel quote too | Feb 03 23:53 |
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| schestowitz | Maybe that's why Miguel chooses MIT/X11 in place | Feb 03 23:53 |
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| schestowitz | *ces | Feb 03 23:53 |
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| *ushimitsudoki has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Feb 03 23:54 |
| schestowitz | [H]omer: that's why they have Novell | Feb 03 23:54 |
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| schestowitz | Wait, I'll get you a recent link | Feb 03 23:54 |
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| schestowitz | http://digg.com/linux_unix/Microsoft_Admits_... | Feb 03 23:55 |
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| [H]omer | "AbiWord developers are the ones who first realized that implementing ODF support without referencing OpenOffice source code is very hard." ~ asellus, http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_Will_Sup... | Feb 03 23:55 |
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| [H]omer | Did Microsoft break it's own rules? | Feb 03 23:55 |
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| schestowitz | They sens out the clow... Novellers | Feb 03 23:56 |
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| schestowitz | *sent | Feb 03 23:56 |
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| [H]omer | Maybe this is the /real/ reason for "Go-OO" | Feb 03 23:56 |
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| schestowitz | Maybe | Feb 03 23:56 |
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| schestowitz | Go-OOXML | Feb 03 23:56 |
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| [H]omer | "Go MS-Team" (Novell, et al) | Feb 03 23:56 |
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| [H]omer | I might finally get to upgrade to Fedora 10 soon (had a dead DVD drive for ages) | Feb 03 23:58 |
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| [H]omer | KDE4 is ... radical to say the least | Feb 03 23:59 |
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| [H]omer | I like it though | Feb 03 23:59 |
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| schestowitz | I was gonna ttry it | Feb 03 23:59 |
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| [H]omer | You seen it on a LiveCD? | Feb 03 23:59 |
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| [H]omer | in action? | Feb 03 23:59 |
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| schestowitz | Was gonna write a review for Datamation just before I saw all the MS ads they started sporting | Feb 03 23:59 |
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| schestowitz | Haven't written there since.. | Feb 03 23:59 |
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| [H]omer | Very different paradigm, but perhaps the way forward | Feb 03 23:59 |
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