To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.
| jose | honesty matters of course, but it can disappear quickly depending on circumstances | Mar 04 18:13 |
|---|---|---|
| Balrog | true | Mar 04 18:13 |
| jose | again, your closed source is not something i can optimize and use very much.. | Mar 04 18:13 |
| jose | i see sw as a product not as an income stream | Mar 04 18:14 |
| Balrog | but what should a programmer do if he wants to make money by selling his software? | Mar 04 18:14 |
| jose | redesign is normal | Mar 04 18:14 |
| Balrog | (what do you think) | Mar 04 18:14 |
| Balrog | well, it takes work to make good software | Mar 04 18:14 |
| Balrog | hours of time | Mar 04 18:14 |
| Balrog | *many* hours | Mar 04 18:14 |
| Balrog | for something well written | Mar 04 18:14 |
| jose | are you asking me for a business model that will work in all cases? | Mar 04 18:14 |
| jose | i don't have one | Mar 04 18:14 |
| jose | some devs will alternate with other taks/jobs | Mar 04 18:15 |
| Balrog | then what business model would you go with in that case? | Mar 04 18:15 |
| jose | eg, write and support software | Mar 04 18:15 |
| jose | or work on customizations | Mar 04 18:15 |
| jose | in short, if you want to code all the time, you might find that difficult to do and be all open | Mar 04 18:15 |
| jose | but if you are really good you can get away with it | Mar 04 18:16 |
| jose | and a support team will be placed around you | Mar 04 18:16 |
| jose | have a contract where you code for "free" but the support of marketing side pays you | Mar 04 18:16 |
| Balrog | well, if you use GPL, what prevents people from giving the code away...? | Mar 04 18:17 |
| jose | if you want to be a one-person developer that only writes software.. you will need to go in with money to last you during the coding period | Mar 04 18:17 |
| jose | no | Mar 04 18:18 |
| jose | support is what pays the bills | Mar 04 18:18 |
| jose | if you control the software.. only you know what will change over time | Mar 04 18:18 |
| Balrog | that works for businesses | Mar 04 18:18 |
| *zer0c00l (n=zer0c00l@210.212.255.131) has joined #boycottnovell | Mar 04 18:18 | |
| jose | you know the code best and can best customize it | Mar 04 18:18 |
| Balrog | but not for end-users | Mar 04 18:18 |
| jose | faster turn around support implies higher fees | Mar 04 18:18 |
| Balrog | end-users (the general public) don't often go to the developer for support | Mar 04 18:19 |
| Balrog | many are ignorant | Mar 04 18:19 |
| jose | ok i see what you are saying.. the general answer is the same, but let me think for a second | Mar 04 18:19 |
| jose | assuming we want to avoid any closed source plug-ins for example... | Mar 04 18:20 |
| jose | try to strike contracts with those that make money off your work | Mar 04 18:20 |
| jose | let me give you a link.. hold on.. | Mar 04 18:20 |
| Balrog | yeah. Now what about the iphone app-store model...sell programs that do something small, for a low price....? | Mar 04 18:20 |
| Balrog | (I'm waiting for the link btw...) | Mar 04 18:21 |
| *silentivm (n=renan@189.58.202.3.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br) has joined #boycottnovell | Mar 04 18:23 | |
| jose | see this book http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_stor... | Mar 04 18:23 |
| jose | there is a link there.. ok http://www.micheleboldrin.com/research/aim.html | Mar 04 18:24 |
| jose | i think chapter one or two (if not 3) has a case of.. | Mar 04 18:24 |
| jose | point is that without copyright | Mar 04 18:25 |
| jose | british authors made money in the us (centuries ago) | Mar 04 18:25 |
| jose | because of time-access deals | Mar 04 18:25 |
| jose | ie, you deal with a distributor | Mar 04 18:25 |
| jose | you gift a particular distributor in exchange for money | Mar 04 18:25 |
| jose | who then sell the material cheaply and efficiently and quickly | Mar 04 18:26 |
| jose | ok this was for hardcover books | Mar 04 18:26 |
| jose | for pure software you'd need to adjust the storyline | Mar 04 18:26 |
| Balrog | then the problem is that copyright is too long | Mar 04 18:26 |
| jose | see who makes money off you and then look for a way to deal with that person | Mar 04 18:27 |
| jose | google makes money on ads | Mar 04 18:27 |
| jose | if you provide something of value, you have leverage | Mar 04 18:27 |
| Balrog | I'll be back | Mar 04 18:27 |
| jose | even without monopoly leverage | Mar 04 18:27 |
| jose | ok | Mar 04 18:27 |
| jose | i'll think about this some more | Mar 04 18:27 |
| jose | here's an example.. if your sw (not yet public but will become foss).. | Mar 04 18:28 |
| jose | is great.. | Mar 04 18:28 |
| jose | than past partners, eg, pc builders, will be willing to pay to get access before others | Mar 04 18:29 |
| jose | they don't have to pay too much per copy or a huge lump sum for you to have it be worth your time perhaps | Mar 04 18:29 |
| jose | again, the developer that can leverage the community has an advantage | Mar 04 18:29 |
| jose | and to leverage the community, you have to do something for it | Mar 04 18:30 |
| jose | and the thing devs take most personally (pro or against) is revealing source | Mar 04 18:30 |
| jose | at least i think so in general | Mar 04 18:30 |
| jose | consider being the last line of defense in a support network | Mar 04 18:30 |
| jose | you charge a "retainer" fee | Mar 04 18:31 |
| jose | you may never need to address a support issue.. or only seldomly.. yet make some money | Mar 04 18:31 |
| jose | maybe strike several such deals | Mar 04 18:31 |
| jose | people writing software need and appreciate breaks in the action | Mar 04 18:31 |
| jose | to think and plan as well as to smell the roses and prevent burn-out | Mar 04 18:31 |
| jose | though the more you like your coding work, the longer you can stay below water | Mar 04 18:32 |
| jose | without rising for a breath | Mar 04 18:32 |
| jose | consider partnering up with an agent that will book contracts for you for a cut | Mar 04 18:34 |
| jose | another idea.. | Mar 04 18:36 |
| jose | let's say i run a business where i have a captive audience and "entertain" them in relation to a distro | Mar 04 18:36 |
| jose | I can get material to work with from you and pay you | Mar 04 18:37 |
| *silentivm has quit ("Leaving") | Mar 04 18:37 | |
| jose | i might contract you as a consultant or to solve reader problems or handle their requests once a month say | Mar 04 18:37 |
| jose | ie, sell your software to partners while striking a deal | Mar 04 18:38 |
| jose | and look for future partners in those that are already leveraging your work | Mar 04 18:38 |
| jose | the main code base takes up the most work and pays the least (say $0) | Mar 04 18:38 |
| jose | but all the special expert addon services will be high margin (in terms of $/hr) | Mar 04 18:39 |
| jose | just make sure you have enough of these side contracts to make you satisfied | Mar 04 18:39 |
| schestowitz | This works well for Red Hat | Mar 04 18:40 |
| jose | again, if you can leverage the community, you will go farther.. you will actually be making money with these deals on code partly contributed by others (and they can do the same back.. though you would likely be the main expert/authority leader) | Mar 04 18:40 |
| jose | Red Hat also is large | Mar 04 18:40 |
| jose | i was trying to focus on small independent developers .. maybe a one-person code army | Mar 04 18:40 |
| jose | coding army | Mar 04 18:40 |
| schestowitz | When Microsoft loses a foothold, which it has had in some areas, then it can't leverage monopoly $ | Mar 04 18:41 |
| jose | look at it this way Balrog (when you get back) and anyone else reading | Mar 04 18:41 |
| jose | you are a limited resource.. not your code but you | Mar 04 18:41 |
| schestowitz | Thar's why it fight so hard against Linux sub-notebooks | Mar 04 18:41 |
| schestowitz | Losing money in the process also in educational contracts | Mar 04 18:41 |
| jose | there will be many others that will be able to profit off you but will compete with each other | Mar 04 18:41 |
| jose | so you leverage that.. you give services that help the business of those others (or their competitors) | Mar 04 18:42 |
| schestowitz | People ae vigilant though | Mar 04 18:42 |
| schestowitz | It didn't work for Novell | Mar 04 18:42 |
| schestowitz | People pay Red Hat to reward them. | Mar 04 18:42 |
| schestowitz | Linuxcam: http://www.pixavi.com/news-pixa... | Mar 04 18:43 |
| jose | i skipped that story on LT.. but just noticed that tux the penguin makes a cameo | Mar 04 18:45 |
| jose | when all device manufacturers (sell hardware) support linux and leverage it.. they will be able to pay for linux hacking.. they have to because they will need it and won't get their specifics done for free | Mar 04 18:46 |
| jose | and many devices will use other parts of the stack and other software... like music software or whatever | Mar 04 18:47 |
| schestowitz | http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/articl... "News of the recent sale was given to Linux.com employees and long-term contractors at the end of last November, when the editorial budget was not renewed, and Robin "Roblimo" Miller, the senior editor, received notice that he would be laid off. " | Mar 04 18:48 |
| schestowitz | "Asked about the reason why the transfer took so long, Jim Zemlin, the executive director of the Linux Foundation, refused comment. However, Jon Sobel, group president, media at SourceForge, replied, "There was no specific reason." | Mar 04 18:48 |
| schestowitz | So I guess Byfield lost his job there too? | Mar 04 18:49 |
| schestowitz | "Neither Zemlin nor Sobel would discuss the price paid for the Linux Foundation -- or whether, as some rumors would have it, the transference of the URL was a donation. "Anything I say will just provoke more questions," Sobel says. " | Mar 04 18:49 |
| schestowitz | "The reason for the transfer is easy to see from the Linux Foundation's perspective. "We also manage the Linux trademark, and obviously Linux.com is an important brand asset," Zemlin says. Acquiring the URL, Zemlin adds, "just supports the activities that the Linux Foundation is already responsible for." " | Mar 04 18:49 |
| schestowitz | There is something hostile about this whole thing, don't you think? | Mar 04 18:49 |
| schestowitz | "However, according to Zemlin, SourceForge approached the Linux Foundation about the sale -- a move for which he gives the corporation the highest praise." | Mar 04 18:50 |
| jose | btw, schestowitz, the link i gave a little earlier is to a decent exposition arguing that copyrights and patents aren't necessary not beneficial | Mar 04 18:50 |
| schestowitz | "However, according to Zemlin, SourceForge approached the Linux Foundation about the sale -- a move for which he gives the corporation the highest praise." | Mar 04 18:50 |
| schestowitz | So they're not even sure what to do with it. | Mar 04 18:50 |
| jose | i only read some of it and don't think it captures the story accurately 100% but it's decent | Mar 04 18:50 |
| schestowitz | jose: yes, I read it all | Mar 04 18:50 |
| schestowitz | It'll also be posted for future ref | Mar 04 18:51 |
| schestowitz | jose: maybe he's bitter | Mar 04 18:51 |
| schestowitz | If he'd lost his post there, then he'd be against LDN/LF | Mar 04 18:51 |
| schestowitz | "Moreover, asked whether the former content of the site would be preserved, Zemlin replied,, "Absolutely." Publishing an average of four stories each work day, Linux.com has been a major source of how-tos and community history, and some observers have been worried that this archival material might be lost in any transfer of the URL. | Mar 04 18:52 |
| schestowitz | " | Mar 04 18:52 |
| schestowitz | Oh! Excellent: | Mar 04 18:52 |
| schestowitz | "Asked specifically about whether Linux.com under the Foundation would accept advertising from Microsoft -- a source of many readers' complaints under SourceForge's management -- Zemlin replied, "We're the Linux Foundation. It's not like it's in our interest to advertise Microsoft products. That's pretty obvious." " | Mar 04 18:52 |
| schestowitz | "Bruce Byfield is a former contributing editor at Linux.com " | Mar 04 18:53 |
| jose | who would be bitter? | Mar 04 18:53 |
| schestowitz | Byfield. | Mar 04 18:54 |
| schestowitz | OT: No mention of Bush's crimes here: With Iraq plan, Obama embraces US militarism < http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/m... >. The US also overthrew this man: Jean-Bertrand Aristide remains potent force in Haiti < http://www.miamiherald.com/news/america... > | Mar 04 18:54 |
| jose | that's great that they might be smart about not advertizing the monopolist competing platform | Mar 04 18:54 |
| jose | losing job is not nice .. i hope there was ample time to plan | Mar 04 18:54 |
| schestowitz | jose: with Google AdSense it is hard | Mar 04 18:54 |
| schestowitz | They infiltrate BN as well | Mar 04 18:55 |
| schestowitz | From many domains partners) | Mar 04 18:55 |
| schestowitz | Groklaw needs to restore RSS | Mar 04 18:55 |
| schestowitz | Many readers like me hardly know when something is even published. Readership there declines, obviously. | Mar 04 18:55 |
| schestowitz | BN is now bigger than Groklaw I think, in terms of readership | Mar 04 18:56 |
| jose | btw, i have always accepted ms ads on LT. i see it as a show of linux value | Mar 04 18:56 |
| jose | but not advertizing ms would be preferable so that you can control the message | Mar 04 18:56 |
| amarsh04 | I just run linuxtoday in lynx mode with adblock plus on | Mar 04 18:57 |
| amarsh04 | itwire.com has some embedded ms ads in it that adblock plus can't remove | Mar 04 18:57 |
| schestowitz | jose: this is just the beginning of a depression and I hope that sites don't go down or sell out | Mar 04 18:57 |
| jose | also, linux.com is pretty central to linux.. maybe no ads or very select ads | Mar 04 18:57 |
| jose | i hope it doesn't get that bad | Mar 04 18:58 |
| schestowitz | amarsh04: yes, itwire sold space to the Vole. I don't like it. | Mar 04 18:58 |
| jose | the economy | Mar 04 18:58 |
| amarsh04 | people don't quite get the term "vole" without having read the wind in the willows | Mar 04 18:58 |
| jose | i suspect it might not | Mar 04 18:58 |
| schestowitz | Why did Carla link to this (2007)? http://www.linuxjournal.co... | Mar 04 18:59 |
| jose | is it recently linked | Mar 04 18:59 |
| schestowitz | Recently I've had to check the date on anything I found in LinuxToday | Mar 04 19:00 |
| jose | if so it might just be to help keep the marketing up | Mar 04 19:00 |
| jose | not just news.. but linux advocacy | Mar 04 19:00 |
| schestowitz | Last week I cited something from 1990 as though it was new | Mar 04 19:00 |
| amarsh04 | she's made a few date mistakes recently | Mar 04 19:00 |
| schestowitz | Big oops about Apple layoffs, which are apparently coming anyway: http://www.pcworld.com/article/160615/ap... | Mar 04 19:00 |
| schestowitz | amarsh04: she finds them in Digg | Mar 04 19:01 |
| amarsh04 | I hate how big organisations that should have people checking their work seem to get away with shoddy work. If it's just Carla Schroeder, I'm not quite so concerned | Mar 04 19:02 |
| amarsh04 | she gets a few reminders in the talkbacks about errors like that | Mar 04 19:03 |
| jose | i like older stuff if it is useful and not that frequent.. but it would be useful as well if the date were noted | Mar 04 19:03 |
| jose | plus, judging by the dates doesn't guarantee it's not news | Mar 04 19:03 |
| jose | a blog posting that has received little publicity might be news.. depending on context as well | Mar 04 19:04 |
| jose | complaints like this isn't Linux Last Year | Mar 04 19:04 |
| schestowitz | :-) "Yea, verily, another update: Boycott Novel, which is becoming as much of a resource for in-depth coverage of FOSS-related legal matters as Groklaw, has a much more thorough examination of this story." http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php | Mar 04 19:05 |
| jose | i read that yesterday | Mar 04 19:05 |
| jose | bn is a day late | Mar 04 19:05 |
| jose | ;-) | Mar 04 19:05 |
| jose | penguin pete | Mar 04 19:05 |
| jose | yup | Mar 04 19:05 |
| jose | i forgot to bring it up, btw, i think i was busy | Mar 04 19:05 |
| schestowitz | I still need to mend the wiki | Mar 04 19:05 |
| schestowitz | I could do it myself, but I want diagnosis from the hosters | Mar 04 19:06 |
| schestowitz | What's the point fixing something if it can recur? | Mar 04 19:06 |
| schestowitz | Bad hiccups in general on the server since yesterday. | Mar 04 19:06 |
| jose | getting back to foss businesses for independent devs... | Mar 04 19:09 |
| jose | you can be a part and lead of a large app | Mar 04 19:09 |
| jose | but build localized or specialized aspects to it for contract to enhance some other business (eg, a retailer) | Mar 04 19:10 |
| jose | that's just a variation of the same theme | Mar 04 19:11 |
| jose | doing things a little different is odd at first, but it doesn't make it bad | Mar 04 19:11 |
| jose | the horse and carriage industry could not stay forever | Mar 04 19:11 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03... | Mar 04 19:12 |
| schestowitz | Big news for Linux | Mar 04 19:12 |
| schestowitz | Ballmer is afraid of Android because of that | Mar 04 19:12 |
| schestowitz | Cloud+netbooks+Linux=the nightmare before Microsoft | Mar 04 19:13 |
| schestowitz | New Linux rc: http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/3/3/485 | Mar 04 19:14 |
| jose | i don't expect to like googles subsidized netbook of the future | Mar 04 19:15 |
| jose | well, if it's actually free.. | Mar 04 19:15 |
| jose | you probably couldn't displace the OS.. though they should leave it open | Mar 04 19:15 |
| balzac | It's annoying how the OLPC project comes up all the time | Mar 04 19:15 |
| jose | most people would not change it and attracting devs is good | Mar 04 19:16 |
| balzac | it was a failure, for the most part | Mar 04 19:16 |
| balzac | Negroponte sold out to Microsoft | Mar 04 19:16 |
| jose | to you some, even if they replace you (google os), but it would help your partners so you (google) might benefit | Mar 04 19:16 |
| balzac | Also, who would bother to use android on anything other than a phone? | Mar 04 19:16 |
| schestowitz | This is not good: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505... | Mar 04 19:17 |
| balzac | My only interest in the G1 is that I can put debian on it. | Mar 04 19:17 |
| schestowitz | He goes to a company that sued FOSS? | Mar 04 19:17 |
| balzac | I think Ballmer likes Android because it's Linux without GNU. MS is just about ready to embrace "Open Source", but they'll always hate GNU and the GPL. | Mar 04 19:18 |
| schestowitz | "[PJ: I can't resist pointing out that when SCO first sued IBM it told the media that it was not a fight against Linux developers, just a dispute between it and IBM. That proved untrue.]" | Mar 04 19:20 |
| schestowitz | Re: http://www.newmobilecomputing.com/story/21053/... [PJ: Just not in a good way, I'm guessing. So... is this the embrace part?] | Mar 04 19:20 |
| balzac | Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer want to profit from "open source", control it, subvert it, marginalize truly free software, never offer a mea culpa or apologize for their years of being belligerant and wrong about everything. | Mar 04 19:28 |
| balzac | All of this in the interest of protecting their egos, because they can't admit they clung to an archaic business model and licensing approach. | Mar 04 19:29 |
| trmanco | Savannah now runs on Debian Lenny: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.co... | Mar 04 19:30 |
| balzac | sweet | Mar 04 19:32 |
| schestowitz | MS loves America: http://www.pcworld.com/article/160602/microsoft_d... | Mar 04 19:32 |
| schestowitz | Aren't treason principles somewhat of a law too? IANAL. | Mar 04 19:33 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is attacking competitors in cuort, corrupts politicians to illegalise their rivals and also sends its work to seatshops | Mar 04 19:33 |
| schestowitz | *sweashop | Mar 04 19:33 |
| schestowitz | Then, PearlyG shills for big phramas using poor kids. | Mar 04 19:33 |
| balzac | They can't stand freedom | Mar 04 19:34 |
| jose | ohhhhhh, sweashop... now i get it | Mar 04 19:34 |
| jose | i though you meant westchops | Mar 04 19:35 |
| jose | or sweet hop | Mar 04 19:35 |
| balzac | I call it "Bush's undead talking points" when I recycle Bush's rhetoric against people who share Bush's ideology. | Mar 04 19:35 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: seen my Bush refs above? | Mar 04 19:36 |
| balzac | how far up? | Mar 04 19:36 |
| schestowitz | *balzac | Mar 04 19:36 |
| schestowitz | Found in RMS' site: No mention of Bush's crimes here: With Iraq plan, Obama embraces US militarism < http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/... >. The US also overthrew this man: Jean-Bertrand Aristide remains potent force in Haiti < http://www.miamiherald.com/news/amer... > | Mar 04 19:36 |
| balzac | Actually, Obama's innauguration speech borrowed some of Bush's rhetorical style. I was annoyed. | Mar 04 19:37 |
| schestowitz | He wrote it?? | Mar 04 19:37 |
| balzac | "There are those who think..." | Mar 04 19:37 |
| schestowitz | "One might suggest..." | Mar 04 19:37 |
| balzac | There's this young douche-bag speech writer he relies on | Mar 04 19:37 |
| schestowitz | "One" | Mar 04 19:37 |
| schestowitz | "If" | Mar 04 19:37 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: it's all PR | Mar 04 19:38 |
| schestowitz | formerly known as "Propaganda" | Mar 04 19:38 |
| schestowitz | Learn how Clinton bought the election with PR agents | Mar 04 19:38 |
| balzac | I thought it was just very lazy speech-writing in that case. | Mar 04 19:38 |
| schestowitz | Hold on, I'll fetch the vid | Mar 04 19:38 |
| schestowitz | Here is episode 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... | Mar 04 19:40 |
| schestowitz | But wait... there's another one | Mar 04 19:40 |
| schestowitz | About Thatcher and Clinton | Mar 04 19:40 |
| schestowitz | Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlg6nFaMfyA... | Mar 04 19:42 |
| balzac | My question about Obama's militarism is this: Does he intend to build on it, or is he going to taper it off? | Mar 04 19:42 |
| schestowitz | Short story: all about deceiving public, not expressing POV on real issues. | Mar 04 19:42 |
| schestowitz | Welcome to the United States of Advertising. | Mar 04 19:42 |
| balzac | Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" has to be the ultimate expose on PR | Mar 04 19:43 |
| balzac | I can't watch youtube vids because my employer has an angle where he can see my monitor obliquely | Mar 04 19:43 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft partner has just sued Red Hat | Mar 04 19:43 |
| balzac | that's good | Mar 04 19:44 |
| balzac | I prefer to see animosity between MS and RH | Mar 04 19:44 |
| balzac | no kumbaya | Mar 04 19:44 |
| schestowitz | At least you know the scum you deal with | Mar 04 19:45 |
| schestowitz | First Acacia.. | Mar 04 19:45 |
| amarsh04 | I'm still waiting for Jude Dale Kimball sentencing Darl McBride to singing Kumbaya by a campfire | Mar 04 19:45 |
| amarsh04 | Judge even | Mar 04 19:46 |
| balzac | sentence him to sing the Free Software Song | Mar 04 19:47 |
| amarsh04 | hehehe | Mar 04 19:47 |
| balzac | Make him start an accapella group, just for that one song. | Mar 04 19:47 |
| tessier_ | Sentence him to listen to RMS sing the Free Software Song | Mar 04 19:47 |
| balzac | nobody deserves that | Mar 04 19:47 |
| balzac | jk | Mar 04 19:48 |
| Balrog | schestowitz: why were you mentioning my nick often? | Mar 04 19:54 |
| Balrog | did you mean balzac? | Mar 04 19:54 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Mar 04 19:54 |
| schestowitz | Autocomplete | Mar 04 19:54 |
| Balrog | ok | Mar 04 19:54 |
| Balrog | ew. Make it non case-sensitive then | Mar 04 19:55 |
| balzac | Roy doesn't want to have to type "balz" | Mar 04 19:55 |
| Balrog | the first letter of my nick is uppercase | Mar 04 19:55 |
| schestowitz | I keep seeing the wrong hypothesis that Windows is ahead of GNU/Linux, which obviously does not run _just on desktops_. | Mar 04 19:59 |
| balzac | yeah, because so many IT pundits aren't very aware of servers because they're not coming from an IT background. | Mar 04 20:02 |
| balzac | Lots of people just think and write about PCs, as if the rest of the computers don't even exist. | Mar 04 20:03 |
| amarsh04 | what controls their vehicle's fuel injection system, what is in their microwave, washing machine, mobile handset, adsl router... | Mar 04 20:06 |
| Balrog | linux or some other embedded OS | Mar 04 20:06 |
| Balrog | like wind river vxworks or RTOS | Mar 04 20:06 |
| schestowitz | Hehe. linux too f*@King easy to install < http://noronha.id.au/?p=142 > | Mar 04 20:07 |
| Balrog | or in many cases, it's custom code for a uC | Mar 04 20:07 |
| amarsh04 | don't ee students get told about the intel 4004 and motorola 6509 cpus? | Mar 04 20:08 |
| amarsh04 | calculator and washing machine chips respectively | Mar 04 20:08 |
| Balrog | Not sure. I don know that they work with PIC chips and FPGAs | Mar 04 20:08 |
| Balrog | and Verilog | Mar 04 20:08 |
| amarsh04 | what did the z80 start out as? | Mar 04 20:08 |
| Balrog | i DO know ** | Mar 04 20:08 |
| MinceR | 8080, iirc | Mar 04 20:09 |
| Balrog | the Z80 is very different from the 8080 | Mar 04 20:09 |
| amarsh04 | what should they think when some piece of equipment has big square chips labelled xilinix? | Mar 04 20:09 |
| Balrog | also it was a royalty-free design | Mar 04 20:09 |
| MinceR | isn't the z80 an extended 8080 clone? | Mar 04 20:09 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft to Release Windows Linux! < http://linugadgetech.blogspot.com/2009/03/... > | Mar 04 20:09 |
| MinceR | suse to be renamed? | Mar 04 20:10 |
| Balrog | you coud say so, though the instruction sets are not directly | Mar 04 20:10 |
| Balrog | compatible | Mar 04 20:10 |
| MinceR | ic | Mar 04 20:10 |
| Balrog | also it was a royalty-free design | Mar 04 20:10 |
| amarsh04 | not forgetting the 8051 | Mar 04 20:10 |
| Balrog | that's why it became so successful | Mar 04 20:10 |
| amarsh04 | another argument for free designs | Mar 04 20:11 |
| Balrog | what about the MOS 6502 and the Motorola/freescale 68000 series? | Mar 04 20:11 |
| Balrog | the 68K is still used in embedded devices | Mar 04 20:11 |
| amarsh04 | e.g. Novell with the NE2000 ethernet card | Mar 04 20:11 |
| amarsh04 | I forget that people wouldn't remember 68000 from amiga/atari/apple lisa/macintosh | Mar 04 20:12 |
| Balrog | I used to use 68000 macs | Mar 04 20:12 |
| Balrog | and I have a TI calculator with a 68000 | Mar 04 20:12 |
| amarsh04 | one needs to learn of the equivalence (and shortcomings) of each way of implementing digital logic - it explains how new generations built on the old | Mar 04 20:15 |
| Balrog | yes | Mar 04 20:15 |
| Balrog | they emphasize FPGA's a lot | Mar 04 20:16 |
| Balrog | xilinx stuff | Mar 04 20:16 |
| amarsh04 | they can be handy black boxes, but knowing the architectural building blocks also helps improve what you can do with them (or replace them with asics) | Mar 04 20:17 |
| amarsh04 | see the opengraphics mailing list for lots of gory details | Mar 04 20:18 |
| Balrog | Yeah. But when you program an FPGA isn't it impossible to get the code out | Mar 04 20:18 |
| Balrog | ? | Mar 04 20:18 |
| amarsh04 | yes, you basically have verilog code that the xilinix software translates into a xilinix implementation | Mar 04 20:19 |
| Balrog | yes. | Mar 04 20:19 |
| Balrog | The xilinx compilers aren't FOSS though... | Mar 04 20:19 |
| amarsh04 | exactly | Mar 04 20:19 |
| Balrog | are there *any* FOSS verilog or vhdl compilers that work with mainstream FPGA's? | Mar 04 20:20 |
| amarsh04 | one would need an open and non obsolete fpga | Mar 04 20:20 |
| *MinceR remembers working with xilinx foundation | Mar 04 20:21 | |
| MinceR | it was a pain | Mar 04 20:21 |
| amarsh04 | in a counterpoint to jose's earlier discussion, if xilinix were more floss friendly, they might open up the specifications and licensing of their older fpga's | Mar 04 20:22 |
| Balrog | they should ... | Mar 04 20:22 |
| amarsh04 | remember what a pain it was when intel didn't second-source the 80386 and we had to wait for amd to clone it? | Mar 04 20:23 |
| Balrog | yeah | Mar 04 20:23 |
| amarsh04 | lots of people kept buying and running 80286 machines since intel kept the price of the '386 high | Mar 04 20:23 |
| Balrog | yes. | Mar 04 20:24 |
| Balrog | any comment on | Mar 04 20:25 |
| Balrog | http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl... | Mar 04 20:25 |
| Balrog | ? | Mar 04 20:25 |
| amarsh04 | I don't usually look at /. - groklaw covered it very heavily in the past... lots of heat and some light was shed on the subject with the conclusion being that software patents are equivalent to mathematics and thus not patentable | Mar 04 20:27 |
| Balrog | yeah but this is about patents in general | Mar 04 20:27 |
| amarsh04 | people like monsanto even less than some of the software patenters | Mar 04 20:28 |
| Balrog | yeah ... patenting human genes :( | Mar 04 20:29 |
| amarsh04 | remember how patents stifled .us aviation development | Mar 04 20:29 |
| amarsh04 | like patents stifled steam engine development a century or so earlier | Mar 04 20:29 |
| Balrog | heh yeah | Mar 04 20:30 |
| Balrog | but don't patents have their place? | Mar 04 20:30 |
| amarsh04 | I tend to think that they should be more aligned to particular implementations of a physical transformation, not all possible implementations of a physical transformation | Mar 04 20:31 |
| Balrog | ok. | Mar 04 20:31 |
| Balrog | but isn't something not patentable if it's the only way to do it | Mar 04 20:32 |
| Balrog | ? | Mar 04 20:32 |
| amarsh04 | that hasn't stopped patents before unfortunately | Mar 04 20:32 |
| amarsh04 | definitions of "obvious to someone skilled in the art" and such | Mar 04 20:32 |
| amarsh04 | and some patents deserve to be bought out and freed, like the safety match | Mar 04 20:33 |
| Balrog | or licensed for very low prices | Mar 04 20:34 |
| schestowitz | Knowledge 'licensed'... hehe.. | Mar 04 20:35 |
| schestowitz | Did you school teacher license her words to you? | Mar 04 20:35 |
| Balrog | that wasn't original work | Mar 04 20:36 |
| schestowitz | "I hereby license you the knowledge on how to wipe behind... you may now proceed to the bathroom" | Mar 04 20:36 |
| Balrog | prior art | Mar 04 20:36 |
| Balrog | can't do it | Mar 04 20:36 |
| Balrog | heh | Mar 04 20:36 |
| amarsh04 | PJ Plaugher of C++ fame had a couple of books could "programming on purpose" and one chapter was called "books for our time" that talked of ficticious book titles such as "the programming of art's computer", "strictured programming", "disciplining programmers" and the like | Mar 04 20:38 |
| Balrog | and what about them? | Mar 04 20:39 |
| amarsh04 | I was disappointed that he didn't include "the accidental programmer" | Mar 04 20:39 |
| Balrog | heh | Mar 04 20:39 |
| Balrog | there's a book 'How Not to Program in C++' | Mar 04 20:39 |
| Balrog | quite interesting | Mar 04 20:39 |
| jose | patents work when the inventors at the forefront (teachers aren't it) are in very small numbers and the field is closed off to many for practical reasons (eg, high costs to develop) and there are alternative ways around the invention | Mar 04 20:39 |
| amarsh04 | it's interesting to see how many people do the opposite of what is considered good programming practice. Lots of times it doesn't work, but sometimes it does | Mar 04 20:40 |
| Balrog | yeah | Mar 04 20:40 |
| amarsh04 | the linux kernel development is a good case in point... strict coding style, but not a big top-down design | Mar 04 20:41 |
| jose | patents.. monopolies..is a bit like the proprietary question. | Mar 04 20:41 |
| jose | the difference is that with proprietary monopolies, the market has to overcome lock-in | Mar 04 20:41 |
| amarsh04 | accidental programmers include those who start with a spreadsheet and make ever more complex macros | Mar 04 20:41 |
| jose | with patents, you have to overcome the (us) government | Mar 04 20:42 |
| Balrog | ohh. :/ | Mar 04 20:42 |
| Balrog | patents are in the constitution. Won't go away ever | Mar 04 20:42 |
| jose | to promote the science and useful arts | Mar 04 20:42 |
| Balrog | yes | Mar 04 20:42 |
| Balrog | not inhibit | Mar 04 20:42 |
| jose | if they don't promote, congress is not doing its job | Mar 04 20:43 |
| jose | sw patents don't promote | Mar 04 20:43 |
| Balrog | certainly not | Mar 04 20:43 |
| jose | in terms of a fix, the 20 years fixed monopoly is way off the mark | Mar 04 20:43 |
| jose | patents are too broad | Mar 04 20:44 |
| jose | and if you want to promote.. | Mar 04 20:44 |
| jose | it makes little sense to give a monopoly and handcuff the many other inventors working in that area or that will work there eventually | Mar 04 20:44 |
| Balrog | well patents aren't supposed to be this broad | Mar 04 20:44 |
| Balrog | why can software be copyrighted then? | Mar 04 20:44 |
| jose | i'm fairly sure (not certain) that copyrights aren't as broad | Mar 04 20:45 |
| jose | they are also automatic | Mar 04 20:45 |
| jose | forget the automatic for a second though | Mar 04 20:45 |
| amarsh04 | copyrights are for particular expressions of an idea or set of ideas | Mar 04 20:45 |
| Balrog | copyrights certainly aren't as broad | Mar 04 20:46 |
| jose | the "derivative" is a little scary, depending on how you take it | Mar 04 20:46 |
| jose | there is fair use | Mar 04 20:46 |
| jose | it's the derivative clause that makes me hesitate in terms of scope | Mar 04 20:47 |
| Balrog | a derivative has to be clearly derived from the original | Mar 04 20:47 |
| Balrog | a separate implementation that accomplishes the same purpose isn't a derivative | Mar 04 20:47 |
| Balrog | now what about games and such? | Mar 04 20:47 |
| jose | here is my question..this became a question recently | Mar 04 20:48 |
| jose | if you abstract ideas from the copyrighted work, and reuse them, could this be a derivative | Mar 04 20:48 |
| jose | eg, you repeat the plot main characters themes etc of a story, but the words are completely different | Mar 04 20:48 |
| Balrog | I suppose it depends | Mar 04 20:49 |
| Balrog | you can take from the plot and reuse it, but it has to be significantly different | Mar 04 20:49 |
| jose | i would have thought that was ok and hence copyright much more reasonable, but i worry now | Mar 04 20:49 |
| jose | well the plot is an abstraction of the literal text | Mar 04 20:49 |
| jose | so in this sense it is broad like patents in that it protects your expression and many other expressions like it | Mar 04 20:50 |
| Balrog | From what I hear, the plot isn't protected... | Mar 04 20:50 |
| jose | one difference though is that the copyright scope seems to be based on some sort of standard | Mar 04 20:50 |
| Balrog | but then again, a very complicated plot may not be easy to reuse. | Mar 04 20:50 |
| jose | in the patent case, the patent writer almost appears to define the scope (as long as they don't go too far i think) | Mar 04 20:50 |
| Balrog | (without copying) | Mar 04 20:50 |
| PetoKraus | hehe | Mar 04 20:50 |
| PetoKraus | archlinux has now oficially included nouveau in it's repositories | Mar 04 20:51 |
| PetoKraus | :D | Mar 04 20:51 |
| Balrog | a patent that is too broad shouldn't be allowed | Mar 04 20:51 |
| Balrog | PetoKraus: does it *work*? | Mar 04 20:51 |
| PetoKraus | well | Mar 04 20:51 |
| PetoKraus | i used to run it since february | Mar 04 20:51 |
| PetoKraus | git-compiled | Mar 04 20:51 |
| PetoKraus | and yes | Mar 04 20:51 |
| PetoKraus | the Xorg seems to be running | Mar 04 20:52 |
| PetoKraus | lemme walk to my 2nd machine | Mar 04 20:52 |
| Balrog | ok...stable enough? | Mar 04 20:53 |
| PetoKraus | right, it works | Mar 04 20:57 |
| PetoKraus | dunno, and i'll never know enough since i'm not using the machine | Mar 04 20:57 |
| PetoKraus | but it's nice effort from Arch | Mar 04 20:57 |
| PetoKraus | it's good to have it in testing, at least | Mar 04 20:58 |
| *jose has quit ("Leaving") | Mar 04 20:58 | |
| Balrog | ok. | Mar 04 21:02 |
| PetoKraus | what's your problem | Mar 04 21:03 |
| Balrog | mine? | Mar 04 21:03 |
| PetoKraus | yeah | Mar 04 21:03 |
| Balrog | I heard that it's unusable | Mar 04 21:03 |
| Balrog | too unstable | Mar 04 21:03 |
| PetoKraus | it's better than nv | Mar 04 21:03 |
| PetoKraus | and fedora is moving to it by default | Mar 04 21:03 |
| PetoKraus | i don't know who told you it's unstable. it's probably as unstable as any other driver... | Mar 04 21:04 |
| schestowitz | F11, indeed | Mar 04 21:04 |
| PetoKraus | and no 3D | Mar 04 21:04 |
| schestowitz | http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi... (Toy retailer ToysRUs has paid $5.1m (€£3.6m) for the Toys.com domain name.) | Mar 04 21:09 |
| schestowitz | It's really stupid that silly names on the Web become gold mines. You give people the ability to hijack and extort | Mar 04 21:10 |
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| adam | hello | Mar 04 21:20 |
| adam | anybody here? | Mar 04 21:20 |
| *adam is now known as Guest49774 | Mar 04 21:20 | |
| Guest49774 | anybody here know how to do a silent uninstall of zenworks? | Mar 04 21:22 |
| schestowitz | He | Mar 04 21:25 |
| schestowitz | What's up? | Mar 04 21:25 |
| schestowitz | Technical support isn't really something that fits here, esp. not for things like zenworks | Mar 04 21:26 |
| Balrog | isn't there a channel for that? | Mar 04 21:30 |
| schestowitz | It sounds like a good thing though -- uninstalling Novellware | Mar 04 21:31 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: some people came here before for Novell support, arguing that no other channels exist (about Novell tech) | Mar 04 21:32 |
| Balrog | there certainly are channels for that | Mar 04 21:32 |
| Balrog | I believe there's /j #xen | Mar 04 21:32 |
| schestowitz | [sarcasm /] we should really set up a site for Novell tech support---only for uninstallation of software. | Mar 04 21:32 |
| amarsh04 | zenworks is completely different to xen though | Mar 04 21:32 |
| Balrog | there's #xen I think | Mar 04 21:33 |
| amarsh04 | remembers the old bit.listserv.novell | Mar 04 21:33 |
| schestowitz | Cirtix? | Mar 04 21:33 |
| schestowitz | *Citrix. As for Novell: They still have newsgroups | Mar 04 21:33 |
| Balrog | yeah .... so with the upgrade to fedora 10, our sysadmin is moving some systems from Xen to KVM | Mar 04 21:33 |
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| schestowitz | Georg from FSFE is overly optimistic: "Predicting that the recession would probably end "sometime this year", he said the downturn..." http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0... | Mar 04 22:03 |
| schestowitz | More new misuse of the term "open source": http://www.metropolismag.com/story/2... | Mar 04 22:04 |
| tessier_ | schestowitz: I don't see that as having anything to do with software. | Mar 04 22:11 |
| tessier_ | Used in a totally different non-software context I don't know why we would care. | Mar 04 22:11 |
| schestowitz | Exactly. It's becoming common that... open source sex, open source energy... this pollutes the news feeds. | Mar 04 22:12 |
| schestowitz | Another new example: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/... (I have about 5 items about this in my feed) | Mar 04 22:12 |
| tessier_ | "I am trying to share with everyone how to make design products with their own hands, without a designer, and without purchasing them—like open source software on Internet." | Mar 04 22:13 |
| tessier_ | Actually it seems to be inspired by OSS. | Mar 04 22:13 |
| schestowitz | I sometimes wonder if it would be better has OSI enforced and policed the term "open source". The trouble is that Microsoft too is exploiting this by diluting and confusing. | Mar 04 22:14 |
| schestowitz | Another excellent talk from Lessig; http://www.lessig.org/blog/2009/03/me_g... | Mar 04 22:28 |
| tessier_ | It's funny how ordinary people seem to prefer "open source" also | Mar 04 22:28 |
| tessier_ | I don't know anyone but FSF people who religiously say "free software" | Mar 04 22:29 |
| MinceR | gn | Mar 04 22:30 |
| MinceR | they probably find the term "free software" confusing | Mar 04 22:30 |
| tessier_ | I'm not sure why they would though. | Mar 04 22:31 |
| tessier_ | I think it's just that people think free means worthless | Mar 04 22:32 |
| tessier_ | Or they are in business selling something and don't want to promote the idea of giving things away for free | Mar 04 22:32 |
| schestowitz | tessier: associations | Mar 04 22:32 |
| tessier_ | But this has been debated many times unfortunately and it's all because of the stupid english language. | Mar 04 22:32 |
| schestowitz | They think freeware | Mar 04 22:32 |
| schestowitz | Not Apache | Mar 04 22:32 |
| MinceR | or they find it inadequately distinct from "freeware" | Mar 04 22:32 |
| schestowitz | They think of it as something you get in a cereal box | Mar 04 22:33 |
| *schestowitz can't believe the host still looks into the Wiki issue. Just as an update, the problem I initially reported solved itself when the SQL server was restarted at the host's end (boycottnovell wordpress works OK now). One problem that remained (it may be connected) is that database boycottnovell wiki became corrupt. | Mar 04 22:35 | |
| schestowitz | I don't know if the downtimes were related to these DB issues that had nothing to do with us. Maybe someone upgraded/patched MySQL? Stupid thing never happens in my other host. Checking the DB gives: "boycottn_wiki.archive Error : Incorrect information in file: './boycottn_wiki/archive.frm' error : Corrupt boycottn_wiki.category Error : Incorrect information in file: './boycottn_wiki/category.frm' error : Corrupt ..." | Mar 04 22:36 |
| *tessier_ is going to migrate his website to a django based setup | Mar 04 22:41 | |
| tessier_ | Plone is just too much anymore. | Mar 04 22:41 |
| schestowitz | Migrating? | Mar 04 22:44 |
| schestowitz | In /. today: http://www.playingwithwire.com/2009/03/open-so... | Mar 04 22:45 |
| schestowitz | http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/vi... (Visit the OpenOffice.org Planet) | Mar 04 22:46 |
| tessier_ | Yeah, migrating. I can't even reliably remember how to post a new blog entry to my Plone Quills blog. | Mar 04 22:51 |
| tessier_ | It's just a big mess. | Mar 04 22:51 |
| tessier_ | I stuck with Plone for nearly 5 years but now I'm doing django. It's time. | Mar 04 22:52 |
| schestowitz | Same with PHP-Nuke | Mar 04 22:52 |
| schestowitz | If I don't use it for a while, then the GUIs take a while to recall | Mar 04 22:52 |
| schestowitz | http://ideaforge.linux.com/ | Mar 04 22:58 |
| schestowitz | Strange thing is, Linux Foundation is the kernel, but the proposals are application layer. At least we won't be seeing Win-only or Mac-only software there like in 'ol linux.com.. and no MS ads | Mar 04 22:59 |
| tessier_ | grab how? | Mar 04 23:06 |
| schestowitz | Did I say "Grab"? | Mar 04 23:07 |
| tessier_ | oops...wrong window | Mar 04 23:07 |
| schestowitz | :-) | Mar 04 23:07 |
| tessier_ | I could swear I just saw someone talking about grabbing the good user id's in linux.com | Mar 04 23:07 |
| *schestowitz checks if "tinkerbell" is taken | Mar 04 23:08 | |
| schestowitz | "Nancy Gohring is an IDG News Service correspondent based in Seattle, WA. She covers mobile phones, Microsoft and technology companies in the Pacific Northwest." http://www.idg.com/www/HomeNew.nsf/docs/Nancy_Gohring | Mar 04 23:10 |
| schestowitz | Seattle Times... that explains it. | Mar 04 23:10 |
| schestowitz | Motorola Fired CFO Liska for Cause < http://www.pcworld.com/article/160700/motoro... > | Mar 04 23:11 |
| schestowitz | Democracy can't exist without newspapers < http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/pr... >. Only newspapers can speak?? http://techdirt.com/articles/20090... | Mar 04 23:15 |
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| schestowitz | Google Won't Remove Pages About You < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/03/0... > | Mar 04 23:20 |
| schestowitz | fficial Finance For Android App Launches < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/03/0... > | Mar 04 23:20 |
| schestowitz | IDC trying to make civil wars? http://www.pcworld.com/article/160670/google_... (Google Disses Twitter) | Mar 04 23:57 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/26... "SKYPE COO, Scott Durchslag, blasted European telcos for trying to block his company's path and delivered a "call to action" to form what he described as "win-win" partnerships with mobile operators and announced an alliance with text-to-speech outfit SpinVox." | Mar 04 23:59 |