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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 9th, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 4:14 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Enter the IRC channel now

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dsmith_ http://www.desktoplinux.com/ne… Sep 09 00:23
dsmith_ Lenovo ditches Linux Sep 09 00:23
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cj eep.  no more linux on lenovo?  That’s too bad.  I was pretty impressed with my experience. Sep 09 00:43
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schestowitz Lenovo was only offering Ballnux. Maybe they’ll learn to shave off the Microsoft tax by offering GNU/Linux instead. Sep 09 05:03
dsmith_ dunno Sep 09 05:12
schestowitz It was semi-hearted with Microsoft tax. http://www.channelinsider.com/c/a/Revie… Sep 09 05:14
schestowitz They should resort those no-O/S options they have and eliminate the Microsoft tax altogether. Sep 09 05:15
dsmith_ yea… freeDOS Sep 09 05:15
schestowitz The laptops are already officially certified for use with Ubuntu and Fedora. Putting ‘Microsoft Linux’ on them (without any other choice) isn’t exactly a win. Either way, dsmith_, watch the article above again. Henry changed the headline because Lenovo denies it’s  true. Sep 09 05:16
schestowitz I notice that they changed the headline because my RSS feeds don’t have the same headlines as the page. Sep 09 05:17
dsmith_ hmmmm Sep 09 05:18
schestowitz He thought of a sensationalist headline, but it could be a glitch, I suppose. We don’t know yet. Sep 09 05:19
schestowitz The ‘bad guys’ (poor Linux support and Windows firmware) are crumbling a bit: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09… Sep 09 05:22
dsmith_ i have two old HP zt3000′s I keep as spares, all distro’s IO have tossed on them just work Sep 09 05:22
schestowitz The patent pirates from Philips/Sisvel will be sued: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/… Sep 09 05:23
dsmith_ your stock market tanked today Sep 09 05:23
dsmith_ what a mess Sep 09 05:23
schestowitz dsmith_: the market or the system? Sep 09 05:23
dsmith_ either? Sep 09 05:23
schestowitz Let me check. Sep 09 05:23
dsmith_ ftse?? Sep 09 05:23
schestowitz http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=%5EFTSE It’s up Sep 09 05:24
dsmith_ er… the system I mean Sep 09 05:24
dsmith_ I suppose I cna say it was down Sep 09 05:25
dsmith_ yea, thats right Sep 09 05:25
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Tallken schestowitz away? odd Sep 09 10:10
Tallken *offline Sep 09 10:10
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Tallken hi schestowitz Sep 09 11:54
Tallken what I wanted to say yesterday to you Sep 09 11:54
Tallken was that one of Google Ads Sep 09 11:55
Tallken on BN Sep 09 11:55
Tallken was advertising Windows server xD Sep 09 11:55
schestowitz *gasp* I thought Shane had blocked these. Damn. I sent him an E-mail asking if we can drop those ads altogether. Sep 09 12:00
schestowitz brb Sep 09 12:00
Tallken schestowitz, will send ya the screenshot Sep 09 12:02
Tallken wait Sep 09 12:02
Tallken schestowitz, it wasn’t directly MS ads Sep 09 12:07
Tallken it was to a company in Germany which sells Windows Server machines Sep 09 12:07
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schestowitz [back] Thanks. That’s why it’s tricky. We can block by domains, not product. I just want to get rid of the ads altogether, but Shane pays the bills, so I need to ask permission and he’s rarely ever on the Internet. Sep 09 12:23
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Tallken schestowitz, I’ll send ya the file Sep 09 12:31
schestowitz It’s scary to see the site with ads (I don’t see them). Sep 09 12:33
schestowitz Eeek! Sep 09 12:33
Tallken LOL Sep 09 12:33
Tallken Adblock? Sep 09 12:33
Tallken I don’t use Adblock Sep 09 12:33
schestowitz I’ve used ‘it’ before it even existed (it was a Mozilla hack in Firefox 0.9x) Sep 09 12:35
Tallken :P Sep 09 12:35
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_Doug benjiman: why is the GPL more restrictive that tha Ms-PL ? Sep 09 14:42
_Doug We are sorry, the page you requested cannot be found Sep 09 14:45
_Doug http://www.microsoft.com/resources/shared… Sep 09 14:46
schestowitz _Doug: I have n update on this: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/09… Sep 09 14:48
_Doug “The software is licensed “as-is.” You bear the risk of using it” .. London Stock Exchange .. ? Sep 09 14:49
_Doug ok I’ll take a look … Sep 09 14:49
_Doug Haaaaa …. Sep 09 14:50
_Doug The supreme leader takes charge .. Sep 09 14:52
_Doug http://www.wcvw.org/fark/spac… Sep 09 14:52
_Doug That Seinfeld advert, it’s only funny if you are pretending to be a dork … Sep 09 14:53
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/videos/ball… Sep 09 14:55
_Doug Shelleytherepublican on Ubuntu .. Sep 09 14:56
_Doug http://www.shelleytherepublican.co… Sep 09 14:56
schestowitz Yes, I got your mail: “Linux, as we all know, began life as a hobbyist operating system ? invented by conspiracy theorist Richard ?Stalin? Stallman so that he could have an operating system that was just as unfriendly as confusing as his word-processor ?e-Macs?” Sep 09 14:58
schestowitz It’s satirical, but some of its goes too far sometimes. Sep 09 14:58
_Doug yea .. but sometimes you can’t tell the difference .. like the Russians quoting the Onion .. Sep 09 15:00
_Doug “As part of its strategy to win more trading business and new customers, the London Stock Exchange needed a scalable, reliable, high-performance stock exchange ticker plant to replace its earlier system. [...] Using the Microsoft® .NET Framework in Windows Server® 2003 and the Microsoft SQL Server™ 2000 database, the new Infolect® system has been built to achieve unprecedented levels of performance, availability Sep 09 15:00
_Doug Making People-Ready a Reality Sep 09 15:00
schestowitz I wrote about that too. Have you seen it yet? Sep 09 15:01
_Doug http://www.microsoft.com/uk/business/peopleread… Sep 09 15:01
_Doug I sure have .. Sep 09 15:01
schestowitz People-ready astroturfing: Michael Arrington, Om Malik and at least 3 other sellouts. Sep 09 15:01
_Doug “Systems should degrade gracefully under overload, NOT crash” — well DOH !!! Sep 09 15:01
schestowitz People ready shills @ http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05/2… Sep 09 15:02
_Doug how complicated is it to sell stocks, I mean technically .. Sep 09 15:02
schestowitz “Load” is an excuse. Sep 09 15:03
_Doug reliable multiple unites in a peering arrangment .. so if one goes out the others take over .. multiple data paths .. I mean its IT-101 Sep 09 15:03
schestowitz It worked fine a year ago. Has the system become smaller? Are people buying /more/ stock amid recession? Sep 09 15:04
_Doug An ‘upgrade’ is the most likely answer Sep 09 15:04
_Doug A closed box, and the left consultants standing around waiting for the servoce-pack from MS Sep 09 15:05
_Doug “One hundred per cent reliable on high-volume trading days” Sep 09 15:06
schestowitz /Which/ days? Sep 09 15:11
_Doug between December 32 and January -2 Sep 09 15:12
_Doug http://news.yahoo.com/comics/dilbert Sep 09 15:12
_Doug back in ten … Sep 09 15:12
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twitter :) Sep 09 15:17
schestowitz Hey, buddy. Sep 09 15:18
twitter I won’t be up often, my house won’t have power until the 24th. Sep 09 15:18
schestowitz How’s Ike? Sep 09 15:18
twitter I have not looked at Ike yet. Sep 09 15:18
schestowitz Just liked to Poison Pens Sep 09 15:18
twitter thanks. Sep 09 15:19
schestowitz In http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/09/aga… (it’s a bad post, but I had to write something) Sep 09 15:19
twitter cool, I have not collected as much as I’d like yet but it’s a good start. Sep 09 15:19
schestowitz I need to sort out something too. Sep 09 15:20
schestowitz it’s all over the place, but no single mental sh*tlist Sep 09 15:20
twitter M$’s media influence is amazing.  When a paper publishes things they don’t like, they get bought.  A recent example is the Gates Foundation buying the San Jose Mercury News. Sep 09 15:22
twitter RMS picked that one up and has linked to a few other not so nice actions by the Gates Foundation. Sep 09 15:22
twitter I’ve got a lot to catch up with.  The last week sucked. Sep 09 15:23
schestowitz Yes, I heard about this “buy to comply” strategy Sep 09 15:23
schestowitz There’s lots more to it. Sep 09 15:23
twitter Their influence though advertising dollars is substantial too.  What’s really disturbing is when reporters are accidentally sent the file detailing everything the company thinks about them and how to get them to carry the message. Sep 09 15:25
schestowitz Microsoft is taking over VMware via EMC: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/09/vmw… Sep 09 15:26
_Doug twitter: any RMS links re ‘San Jose Mercury News’ Sep 09 15:27
twitter I’ll check it later.  My time on line today is more a proof of concept for me.  I’ve rigged a generator and I’m trying to tighten it up. Sep 09 15:28
twitter Cox only got my house back up a couple of days ago.  I got the generator last night. Sep 09 15:28
schestowitz Tough thing. Sorry to hear that. Sep 09 15:29
twitter It’s better than earthquakes. Sep 09 15:29
schestowitz tessier would like to see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/0… Sep 09 15:30
schestowitz You mean “not as bad”, right? Sep 09 15:30
twitter well, got to go down for a while.  It was nice to say hello and I’ll be back soon. Sep 09 15:31
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_Doug MS patents electronic data snapshot generator .. Sep 09 15:31
_Doug http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Business/Microsoft_s… Sep 09 15:31
_Doug “A snapshot of electronic data is generated to provide information about a file at a specific point in time.” Sep 09 15:31
PetoKraus isn’t that… patenting a file? Sep 09 15:32
PetoKraus *storing a file? Sep 09 15:32
schestowitz Yes, I sent this to PJ yesterday. Sep 09 15:32
_Doug Novell Netware had this didn’t they ? Sep 09 15:33
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09… Sep 09 15:33
PetoKraus i guess just storing a file can be prior act Sep 09 15:33
schestowitz Go ahead ans prove it. Sep 09 15:33
schestowitz Will cost you $$ Sep 09 15:33
PetoKraus it’s common sense, gods! Sep 09 15:34
PetoKraus how do you think the data are stored on drives? files are snapshots of electronic data themselves, in magnetic, or physical, or electrical (or any other) form, i guess Sep 09 15:35
schestowitz Does the patent cover stone and carving? Sep 09 15:36
PetoKraus it looks like ^^ Sep 09 15:36
_Doug It covers remembering ‘stuff’ .. :) Sep 09 15:36
PetoKraus electrically represented stuff, _Doug Sep 09 15:36
schestowitz The Sisvel Commando could attack you for it! :-S Sep 09 15:36
PetoKraus oh man. This needs to get off the desk Sep 09 15:38
_Doug the brain used bio-electrical energy ? Sep 09 15:38
schestowitz I feel violated ;-) Sep 09 15:38
schestowitz Kind of Hypocrisy: “If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today’s ideas were invented, and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today.” [..] some large company will patent some obvious thing [...] take as much of our profits as they want.” And here he is patenting smiley faces, Page Up/Down and file storage. Sep 09 15:40
_Doug remote execution vulnerability found in SCADA unit .. Sep 09 15:41
_Doug http://seclists.org/fulldisclosur… Sep 09 15:41
_Doug This is so 2003 … Sep 09 15:41
PetoKraus facebooked that article Sep 09 15:42
schestowitz Twitter page used to pass malware: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-10035580-83… Sep 09 15:43
_Doug SCADA In-Security .. Sep 09 15:45
_Doug http://www.informit.com/guides/content.aspx?g… Sep 09 15:45
schestowitz “Page 82 of 305″ Sep 09 15:46
benJIman _Doug: As I said before it depends on your definition of Free. The GPL places more restrictions aimed at protecting freedom. You could say that less restrictive licences are freer in an anarchistic sense. Sep 09 15:47
_Doug Oh,, you got anarchist in a sentence with GPL .. :) Sep 09 15:48
schestowitz So Windows-only is no restriction? Sep 09 15:48
_Doug What’s you definition of ‘Free’ Sep 09 15:49
_Doug according to the FSF: “the GNU General Public License is intended to guarantee your freedom to share and change all versions of a program” Sep 09 15:50
_Doug “When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price” Sep 09 15:50
tessier schestowitz: Thanks. Sep 09 15:51
_Doug “o protect your rights, we need to prevent others from denying you these rights or asking you to surrender the rights” Sep 09 15:51
_Doug benJIman: quote the bits in the MS-PL and the GPL, contracting the differences in ‘restrictions’ .. Sep 09 15:53
_Doug contrasting .. Sep 09 15:54
tessier MP3Tunes is being sued by EMI? He seems to be making a career of this. Sep 09 15:54
tessier But he doesn’t have any VC or other investors this time afaik so it won’t be other peoples money he is losing. Sep 09 15:54
tessier I’m surprised hesi doing this Sep 09 15:55
benJIman _Doug: Well one example GPL has things like “If the work has interactive user interfaces, each must display Appropriate Legal Notices; however, if the Program has interactive interfaces that do not display Appropriate Legal Notices, your work need not make them do so.” But you might as well jsut read both for yourself http://www.opensource.org/licenses/ms-pl.html http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html Sep 09 15:55
benJIman I have no problem with the GPL, and would normally choose to license my work under that licence. Sep 09 15:56
schestowitz tessier: yes, you told me about it before. Sep 09 15:56
_Doug “Appropriate Legal Notices”, what’s restrictive about that ? Sep 09 15:58
_Doug “keep intact all notices” Sep 09 15:59
_Doug Do I strip off all references to the developers, a bit like Larry Ellison did to Red Hat ? Sep 09 16:00
benJIman _Doug: It is a restriction. I did not comment as to whether it was a bad restriction. Sep 09 16:00
_Doug What is it restricting YOU from doing that the MS-PL isn’t restricting YOU from doing. Can you strip off all reference to Microsoft from its shared source offering ? Sep 09 16:02
schestowitz benJIman: whose side are you on? You do realise what those licences are for, right? Sep 09 16:02
schestowitz it only adds to my suspicion that OpenSUSE folks, much like Novell, just leverage FOSS to their advantage at the exclusion of  others. Sep 09 16:03
benJIman schestowitz: Of course. I think most of the GPLs restrictions are necessary. GPL is one of my favourite licences. Sep 09 16:03
schestowitz Other being…? Sep 09 16:04
schestowitz *others Sep 09 16:04
benJIman I was merely pointing out that the GPL does have more restrictions than other licences such as the MS-PL. Only a statement of fact, not a comment on their relative worth. Sep 09 16:04
benJIman I would not choose the MS-PL mostly because it’s entirely untested legally for a start. Sep 09 16:04
_Doug benJIman: In telation to “Appropriate Legal Notices”, where is MS-PL less restrictive, quote the actual test .. Sep 09 16:05
benJIman lgpl, agpl, some of the creative commons licences, etc Sep 09 16:05
benJIman _Doug: How can I quote the absence of something. Sep 09 16:05
_Doug :) Sep 09 16:05
_Doug OK, give me one more example of ‘restrictions’ in the GPL that are not in the MS-PL .. Sep 09 16:06
benJIman I already gave you one, and I can’t really be bothered to argue with you as it is an entirely pointless discussion. The additional restrictions in the GPL are a good thing not bad. Sep 09 16:07
_Doug It’s deemed good manners in a discussion to produce evidence in favor of your point, else not introduces it .. eg: Sep 09 16:08
_Doug benJIman: there are restrictions in the GPL not in the MS-PL. Doug: name them. benJIman: I really can’t be bothered … Sep 09 16:08
benJIman _Doug: I already provided one example which you didn’t refute. Sep 09 16:09
_Doug OK, what would you like to talk about .. SCADA ? Sep 09 16:09
_Doug Putting a sticker on a machine isn’t restrictive after all I have one that says ‘Intel Inside’ and Vista ready .. :) Sep 09 16:10
_Doug Nothing will remove them .. :) Sep 09 16:10
_Doug LAst time I tried on a different machine, I totally scratched the surface :) Sep 09 16:10
_Doug The cops are restricting my freedom to mug old ladies .. where can I go with more freedom ? Sep 09 16:12
_Doug Columbia ? .. $50 for a hitman .. :) Sep 09 16:12
_Doug benJIman: define your terms … Sep 09 16:14
benJIman _Doug: The law is indeed restrictions. Sep 09 16:16
benJIman It stops you from doing things that you would otherwise be allowed to do. That doesn’t mean that the restrictions of the law are a bad thing. Sep 09 16:16
_Doug what’s the opposite of restrictions ? Sep 09 16:16
benJIman Absence of restrictions. Sep 09 16:17
_Doug rights .. Sep 09 16:17
benJIman No I wouldn’t say rights are the opposite of restrictions. Sep 09 16:17
_Doug the law confers on old ladies the right not to get mugged in the street .. there .. that’s it Sep 09 16:17
_Doug Well the actual test refers to ‘rights’ Sep 09 16:18
_Doug text .. Sep 09 16:18
PetoKraus well, it’s more of a restriction which forbids you to mug anyone Sep 09 16:18
PetoKraus than a right not to get mugged. Sep 09 16:18
_Doug “To protect your rights, we need to prevent others from denying you these rights or asking you to surrender the rights” Sep 09 16:18
_Doug I could put up a toal and charge peopel for walking down my street .. excpet the law prevents this .. Sep 09 16:19
_Doug That’s a right-of-way for the rest of her Majes subjects .. Sep 09 16:19
_Doug ok: restriction, rights, freedom .. forget about it .. Sep 09 16:21
_Doug back in ten .. and have something interesting to talk about .. Sep 09 16:21
benJIman _Doug: No that’s still a restriction, but a beneficial one. Sep 09 16:26
benJIman Much like the GPL’s restrictions Sep 09 16:27
_Doug snooooozzzzzzzz Sep 09 16:31
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schestowitz Another win for GNU/Linux: http://times.debian.net/1272-SERPRO-chose-Deb… Sep 09 16:45
_Doug “Debian GNU/Linux is one of the free libre operating systems” Sep 09 16:46
schestowitz “SUSE GNU/Linux is One of the Free (gratis) Live™ operating systems (with Mono)” Sep 09 16:49
tessier_ benJIman: I like the few restrictions the GPL has. Your rights end where mine begin etc. Sep 09 16:52
benJIman tessier_: Quite. Sep 09 16:52
_Doug “The London Stock Exchange is back to normal after a software glitch on Monday halted trading for the longest period in eight years” Sep 09 16:59
_Doug “LSE trading halted by connectivity failure ..The shutdown came amid a surge in share trading” Sep 09 16:59
schestowitz Ha Sep 09 16:59
schestowitz Source? Sep 09 16:59
_Doug “The London Stock Exchange Group PLC said Tuesday that a software glitch – and not high trading volumes – was to blame for a seven-hour shutdown that angered customers on one of the busiest days of the year on world equity markets” Sep 09 16:59
schestowitz “software glitch” Sep 09 16:59
_Doug http://canadianpress.google.com/articl… Sep 09 16:59
_Doug http://www.finextra.com/fullstory.asp?id=18941 Sep 09 17:00
_Doug http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10036214-92.html Sep 09 17:00
_Doug SPIN~1 … ? Sep 09 17:00
schestowitz There was a lot of Spinola in COLA (hey, it rhymes. Sep 09 17:01
_Doug a software glitch, not a software glitch, a ‘connevtivity’ proble, a surge in trades, not a surge in trades … Sep 09 17:01
_Doug I’M CONFUSED .. Sep 09 17:01
_Doug “London Stock Exchange confirms it was a software issue that brought down its systems” Sep 09 17:02
_Doug http://feeds.itpro.co.uk/~r/ITPro/Today/… Sep 09 17:02
schestowitz I added: “Microsoft needs to rip down its “get the facts” pages. It’s false advertising. Maybe the ASA should be informed.” Sep 09 17:02
_Doug when software upgrades go wrong … Sep 09 17:02
_Doug “It was actually a software issue, and not one to do with hardware as some in the media have suggested. This is why we couldn’t switch over to our backup hardware.” Sep 09 17:03
schestowitz Maybe the left side of the mouth is Steel, Ballmer and the cronies. The other admits the truth. Sep 09 17:03
_Doug illogical captain … dave I’m losing my mind .. danger Will Roberson … Sep 09 17:03
tessier_ Someone remind me why Linux can’t use ZFS even as a module… Sep 09 17:04
schestowitz FUSe Sep 09 17:04
tessier_ You can load proprietary modules. Sep 09 17:04
tessier_ Fuse is a toy, not something you would use on a real file server. Sep 09 17:04
tessier_ I use and like Fuse for sshfs and other things. Sep 09 17:04
schestowitz tessier: let me find you some links Sep 09 17:04
tessier_ But it’s going to be way too slow for a real disk system Sep 09 17:04
*tessier_ works for a disk system integrator now and we use tons of Linux Sep 09 17:05
schestowitz I put many here: http://groups.google.com/groups/se… Sep 09 17:05
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_Doug “Chalmers also said the current generation of application performance monitoring systems .. are poor when it comes to identifying problems in the code which joins all the parts together. And this is often where many of the glitches actually reside” Sep 09 17:06
schestowitz Haha. Updates from COLA: Sep 09 17:06
schestowitz http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/… Sep 09 17:06
schestowitz “…The LSE said the inquiry would attempt to discover why it took almost a whole day to repair its trading system” Sep 09 17:07
schestowitz “This happens two or three times a year” Sep 09 17:07
_Doug “the code which joins all the parts”, that’s way too technical for me .. :) Sep 09 17:07
schestowitz So Microsoft was lying all along. Sep 09 17:07
schestowitz No prosecution I suppose. Sep 09 17:07
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benJIman schestowitz: It doesn’t say the flaw was with microsoft software. Sep 09 17:07
schestowitz “In June last year the LSE switched from its 10-year-old Sets system in favour of a new platform called TradElect, which runs on Microsoft software. TradElect was hailed as a huge advance in an increasingly competitive market, primarily by reducing the time taken to complete a trade from 140 milliseconds to 10 milliseconds…” Sep 09 17:07
schestowitz benJIman: it doesn’t say your name is Funkenbusch, either. Sep 09 17:08
schestowitz The system comes as a whole system. It doesn’t happen in Wall Street. How come? Sep 09 17:08
benJIman More likely to be their trading software. Sep 09 17:08
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schestowitz http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?… Simon Denham, founder of Capital Spreads, said; “It (trading) went down at 8.44 am. This happens on the LSE two or three times a year…” Sep 09 17:09
tessier_ Lustre and Nexenstor or someone like that claims their Linux based systems support ZFS. How is that possible? Sep 09 17:10
_Doug is ZFS important right now :) Sep 09 17:11
_Doug “An LSE spokesperson said “connectivity issues” meant traders could not connect with the LSE trading platform” Sep 09 17:11
schestowitz _Doug: that’s like blaming the network company/ISP for a fried mobo. Sep 09 17:12
schestowitz “Hello. I have a problem with the Internet. I can’t power up my computer.” Sep 09 17:13
_Doug Isn’t a five-nines stock trading system supposed to have multiple ‘connectivity’ paths ? Sep 09 17:14
benJIman _Doug: That was an early report, they later stated it was a software problem. Sep 09 17:14
benJIman But didn’t state whether the problem was in the microsoft stack or their own software on top of it. Sep 09 17:14
_Doug I mean the Ugandan one makes do with telephones and five screens ? Sep 09 17:14
schestowitz http://www.schneier.com/blog/archi… I was not involved with BT and Phorm, then or now. Everything I know about Phorm and BT’s relationship with Phorm came from the same news articles you read. I have not gotten involved as an employee of BT. But anything I say is — by definition — said by a BT executive. That’s not good.” Sep 09 17:14
schestowitz benJIman: tell it to the Chinese with the BSoDs in the olympics Sep 09 17:15
schestowitz It wasn’t a hardware fault. Sep 09 17:15
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/13/vista… Sep 09 17:16
_Doug benJIman: which one ? Sep 09 17:17
benJIman _Doug: The connectivity issue was the earlier report. Sep 09 17:17
schestowitz benJIman: the system was down. Sep 09 17:17
schestowitz Microsoft lied. Sep 09 17:17
schestowitz Once again you’re showing your true colours. Sep 09 17:18
_Doug OK ? Sep 09 17:18
_Doug benJIman: who is this funkenbush ? Sep 09 17:19
_Doug so there was *no* ‘connectivity issue’, they’re just waffling , yea ? Sep 09 17:20
benJIman _Doug: So it would seem. Sep 09 17:21
benJIman schestowitz: They have not said that microsoft’s system was down. Sep 09 17:21
benJIman It might be the case. Sep 09 17:21
_Doug what’s the reference to funkenbush ? Sep 09 17:21
benJIman _Doug: I have no idea. Sep 09 17:21
schestowitz What /else/ is on that system? Sep 09 17:22
schestowitz It’s a Microsoft stack on commodity hardware. it was not a hardware fault. Sep 09 17:22
_Doug benJIman: are you this funkenbush ? Sep 09 17:23
benJIman schestowitz: They have their own trading software that runs on top of the microsoft stack. Sep 09 17:24
benJIman The fault could equally well be with that. Sep 09 17:24
benJIman Untill they say then who knows. Sep 09 17:24
schestowitz I see you’ve done a fair share of Microsoft apologism, benJIman, e.g. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/… Sep 09 17:24
benJIman I fail to see how that is microsoft apologism. Sep 09 17:25
_Doug benJIman: it’s a .net system isn’t it, what’s the name again ? Sep 09 17:26
benJIman _Doug: Because something’s implemented on the .net platform does’t mean the problem is with .net. Sep 09 17:27
_Doug Infolect® that’s it .. Sep 09 17:28
_Doug So, if it runs on .net, and it breaks, and it’s a software bug, then it can’t be .net, I see :) Sep 09 17:28
_Doug Which parts of Infolect don’t run on .net ? Sep 09 17:29
benJIman It’s like hearing there’s a car accident and immediately blaming the road. The road may be at fault due to poor surfacing, blind bends, or other hazards, but it could equally well be down to the car or the driver. Sep 09 17:29
_Doug Sorry, you state it isn’t a .net problem, please provide evidence as to this accertation ? Sep 09 17:30
schestowitz benJIman: you’re spreading a lot of  hostile stuff today. Are you here only to antagonise everything? Sep 09 17:31
benJIman _Doug: I did not state it isn’t a .net problem. Sep 09 17:31
benJIman _Doug: I stated that we cannot know whether or not it is a .net problem. Sep 09 17:31
benJIman Until more information is made available. Sep 09 17:31
schestowitz It’s unlikely to be made available (at that level) Sep 09 17:32
benJIman schestowitz: Hostile? I have only been responding to questions or pointing out factual inaccuracies. Sep 09 17:32
schestowitz So you’re here as a sort of moderator? Sep 09 17:33
_Doug benJIman: if you don’t know then how can you state it isn’t a .net problem. The whole system is Windows+SQL+dotNET. What other non-Microsoft software is involved. Please provide examples .. Sep 09 17:33
benJIman _Doug: Please read what I write. I never stated it isn’t a .net problem. Sep 09 17:34
benJIman It could well be. Sep 09 17:34
_Doug you said it *is* a .net problem .. :) Sep 09 17:34
_Doug “As part of its strategy to win more trading business and new customers, the London Stock Exchange needed a scalable, reliable, high-performance stock exchange ticker plant to replace its earlier system. [...] Using the Microsoft® .NET Framework in Windows Server® 2003 and the Microsoft SQL Server™ 2000 database, the new Infolect® system has been built to achieve unprecedented levels of performance, availabilit Sep 09 17:34
benJIman _Doug: Err… what? Sep 09 17:35
schestowitz benJIman: your spin serves not OpenSUSE; it serves Novell & Partner. Sep 09 17:35
_Doug benJIman: what other agile software platform could be the source of the problem ? Sep 09 17:35
benJIman schestowitz: What spin? I am simply pointing out there is insufficient information to blame Microsoft here. Sep 09 17:35
_Doug benJIman: what other software ? Sep 09 17:35
benJIman You are the one making a conclusion that is unsubstantiated by the available evidence. Sep 09 17:35
benJIman _Doug: Their software built on top of .net. Sep 09 17:36
_Doug yea ? Sep 09 17:36
schestowitz Is Alfresco shedding off staff? http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/new… “Alfresco, the leading open source alternative for enterprise content management systems, today announced that it has appointed Jeff Nott as its new Territory Sales Manager for Northern Europe.” Sep 09 17:36
benJIman _Doug: Which is not .net itself. Sep 09 17:37
schestowitz Seems like increased demand rather. :-) It’s a new position Sep 09 17:37
_Doug a software ‘upgrade’ that they couldn’t recover from .. Sep 09 17:37
schestowitz benJIman: there *is* pretty much enough evidence. Sep 09 17:37
_Doug benJIman: explain how a .net application isn’t a .net application ? Sep 09 17:38
benJIman _Doug: a .net application is not part of the .net stack, and microsoft is not responsible for third party software. Sep 09 17:38
_Doug not what I asked .. Sep 09 17:38
benJIman I didn’t say that it isn’t a .net application. Sep 09 17:39
benJIman Would you blame java because a java application crashes? Sep 09 17:39
_Doug you answered: is the application part of the .net stack .. :) Sep 09 17:39
benJIman You are not making sense. Sep 09 17:40
_Doug If the LSE doesn’t run on the Microsoft® .NET Framework, then what does it run on ? Sep 09 17:40
benJIman It does. But that does not mean that that is where the problem lies. Sep 09 17:40
_Doug OK, where does the problem lie, please tell, us and the LSE, where were you yesterday and the last times it happened ? Sep 09 17:41
_Doug “Using the Microsoft® .NET Framework in Windows Server® 2003 and the Microsoft SQL Server™ 2000 database, the new Infolect® “ Sep 09 17:41
benJIman _Doug: My point was that you cannot know that it was in part of the Microsoft stack. Sep 09 17:42
benJIman It could be with their trading software that runs on top of .net. Sep 09 17:42
_Doug I’m asking you what you know. Sep 09 17:42
benJIman I know that there is insufficient information to conclude that the fault lies with Microsoft software. Sep 09 17:43
_Doug Why is ‘trading software that runs on top of .net’ not part of .net ? Sep 09 17:43
benJIman Microsoft is not responsible for software third parties implement on top of .net. Sep 09 17:43
_Doug Why is ‘trading software that runs on top of .net’ not part of .net ? Sep 09 17:43
_Doug not who is responciple .. Sep 09 17:44
benJIman I write java applications, that does not mean that Sun is responsible for bugs in my applications. Sep 09 17:44
benJIman My applications are not part of java. Sep 09 17:44
_Doug technically speaking, explain how ‘trading software that runs on top of .net’ not part of .net ? Sep 09 17:44
benJIman Same with software written on .net. Sep 09 17:44
_Doug analogy with Java not needed .. Sep 09 17:44
benJIman If it’s not needed then you understand? Sep 09 17:44
_Doug explain how ‘trading software that runs on top of .net’ not part of .net ? give us the technicalities Sep 09 17:44
benJIman Microsoft develop and distribute the .net platform. Developers including myself can create software that runs on top of .net Sep 09 17:45
benJIman THat does not make our software part of .net. Sep 09 17:45
benJIman Any more than native applications are part of the operating system. Sep 09 17:45
_Doug A fuel pump fails because of ICE, but don’t blame Beoing cause it’s not part of the airframe .. :) Sep 09 17:45
benJIman If the fault were with the framework then it would indeed be Microsoft’s fault. Sep 09 17:46
benJIman If the bug were in my application then it would not be Sep 09 17:46
_Doug YOu mean the AirFrame, don’t you . .:) Sep 09 17:46
_Doug What is it you do again ? Sep 09 17:46
benJIman I am a software developer. Sep 09 17:46
benJIman I don’t understand what you don’t understand here. Sep 09 17:47
_Doug Ever come across a bug in a module ? Sep 09 17:47
benJIman If I write my own software and happen to run it on the .net platform you think it is Microsoft’s fault if my software is buggy? Sep 09 17:47
_Doug You software fails because of this, is it your faut or the maker of the module ? Sep 09 17:47
_Doug lets assume there’s a bug in the module Sep 09 17:48
benJIman In which case it would be the author of that component’s fault. Sep 09 17:48
PetoKraus lol: http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/GNOME#De-evolution Sep 09 17:48
benJIman In this case we do not know where in the stack the fault occurred. Sep 09 17:48
benJIman ergo we cannot conclude whether or not it is Microsoft’s fault. Sep 09 17:48
_Doug OK: so between friday and monday a programmer wrote code that trashed the LSE for a whole day. Is that your theory ? Sep 09 17:48
benJIman _Doug: No. Sep 09 17:49
_Doug What is it then ? Sep 09 17:49
benJIman _Doug: The LSE run a software stack composed of software written by Microsoft and other vendors. They have not stated whether the fault lied in Microsoft’s part of the stack. Sep 09 17:49
_Doug What other vendors ? Sep 09 17:49
benJIman _Doug: So we do not know. It might be Microsoft’s fault, it might be someone else’s Sep 09 17:49
_Doug benJIman: what other vendors :) Sep 09 17:50
benJIman _Doug: They have their own software system called TradElect Sep 09 17:50
benJIman I believe it was developed in house. Sep 09 17:50
benJIman http://www.londonstockexchange.com/en-gb/pro… Sep 09 17:50
_Doug I thought it was  Infolect® ? Sep 09 17:51
benJIman I think that’s part of it. Sep 09 17:51
benJIman Not sure, there are some technical whitepapers there if yo uare interested. Sep 09 17:51
_Doug benJIman: So, a programming error took down the entire London Stock Exchange .. yea Sep 09 17:52
_Doug WOW !!! Sep 09 17:52
benJIman _Doug: Quite possible. Sep 09 17:52
_Doug benJIman: what’s the name of these other companies ? Sep 09 17:53
benJIman The point is that we don’t know. Sep 09 17:53
benJIman _Doug: What other companies. Sep 09 17:53
_Doug how do you mean we don’t know .. are you being serious here just do a goole on it … Sep 09 17:54
benJIman I don’t understand what you’re arguing here _Doug. Are you claiming that you know 100% certain that the LSE going down was Microsoft’s fault Sep 09 17:54
_Doug I’m not arguing, what are the names of these other companies ? Sep 09 17:54
benJIman _Doug: What other companies? Sep 09 17:54
_Doug The other companies involved in the LSE apart from Microsoft .. :) Sep 09 17:55
benJIman Tradeelect was I believe an inhouse developent for LSE or at least commissioned by them. I’m fairly sure it is not a Microsoft product. Sep 09 17:55
_Doug What are the names of these other companies ? Sep 09 17:55
benJIman The LSE is not microsoft. Sep 09 17:55
benJIman That is one other company. Sep 09 17:55
benJIman I didn’t mention any other. Sep 09 17:55
_Doug What are the names of these other companies ? Sep 09 17:55
_Doug That crashed the LSE .. ;) Sep 09 17:55
*mib_g4am4e (i=5496d258@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-43a1802a22fb7e16) has joined #boycottnovell Sep 09 17:55
_Doug I *know* that is why I am asking you .. What are the names of these other companies ? Sep 09 17:56
benJIman It might be due to microsoft software, it might be due to a problem with their own tradeelect software, it might be a systems management problem. The point is we do not know. Do you dispute this ? Sep 09 17:56
_Doug Are you afraid of libel ? Sep 09 17:56
_Doug What are the names of these other companies ? Sep 09 17:56
_Doug Google on it .. go on .. we’ll wait .. Sep 09 17:56
benJIman Please answer my question first. There is no point going around in circles. Sep 09 17:56
benJIman Do you or do you not dispute my assertion that we cannot know for certain that it was a problem with Microsoft software? Sep 09 17:57
_Doug Ok, if I answeer you question first will you answer my question ? Sep 09 17:57
benJIman If you ask a question that makes sense, and actually listen to the answer. Sep 09 17:57
_Doug I can’t dispute a negative, if could have been sun-spot activity or space aliens .. :) Sep 09 17:58
benJIman It was not a negative. Sep 09 17:58
_Doug What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ? Sep 09 17:58
benJIman _Doug: Do you claim to know for certain that the fault lies with Microsoft software? Sep 09 17:58
_Doug I clain to know nothing, you assert it isn’t MS, I ask you to support you claims, it isn’t up to me to prove you wrong, fuddie .. :) Sep 09 18:00
_Doug : What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ? Sep 09 18:00
benJIman _Doug: Wrong. I never asserted it isn’t MS. Sep 09 18:00
_Doug : What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ? Sep 09 18:00
benJIman If you don’t read what I write what’s the point of my answering. I never claimed that it was not Microsoft’s fault. Sep 09 18:00
_Doug benJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ? Sep 09 18:00
_Doug Why can’t you anser, you reference thord party software, what software, what is it’s name, who wrote it ? Sep 09 18:01
benJIman _Doug: I’m not going to answer while you deliberately lie about what I say. Sep 09 18:01
_Doug benJIman Sep 09 18:01
benJIman “18:13:49 < _Doug> I clain to know nothing, you assert it isn’t MS,” WRONG Sep 09 18:02
schestowitz Like iSoft in the NHS? Sep 09 18:02
schestowitz You mean, those PCs that CRAHED during operations. Sep 09 18:02
schestowitz And sites that went down..? Sep 09 18:02
_Doug benJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ? Sep 09 18:02
schestowitz That would not be Microsoft’s fault, would it? Sep 09 18:02
schestowitz iSoft made Windows BSoD,.. Sep 09 18:02
benJIman _Doug: I will answer when you acknowledge that I do not assert that it is not Microsoft’s fault. Sep 09 18:02
schestowitz And those Diebold machines too… Diebold plagued these with viruses and had screen freezes, as reported by Wired magazine. Sep 09 18:03
_Doug Haaaa .. you are really something ;) Sep 09 18:03
_Doug benJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ? Sep 09 18:03
schestowitz USB handling and Wi-FI too must be implemented by Diebold from scratch. Sep 09 18:03
benJIman _Doug: In that case I will not continue to converse with you, every response I make you lie about and claim I say things that I do not. It is just a waste of time. Sep 09 18:03
_Doug benJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ? Sep 09 18:03
benJIman And if you had actually bothered to read what I have been saying you would see that I have already answered that particular question. Sep 09 18:04
_Doug benJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ? Sep 09 18:04
benJIman So see the scrollback. Sep 09 18:04
_Doug humor me .. :) Sep 09 18:05
benJIman 18:03:57 < _Doug> benJIman: what other vendors :) Sep 09 18:05
benJIman 18:03:59 < benJIman> _Doug: They have their own software system called TradElect Sep 09 18:05
benJIman 18:04:05 < benJIman> I believe it was developed in house. Sep 09 18:05
_Doug benJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ? Sep 09 18:05
benJIman Microsoft and LSE are the ones I am aware of, as I stated earlier. There are probably others. Sep 09 18:05
_Doug LSE isn’t a software company, it’s the Stock Exchange .. Sep 09 18:06
_Doug benJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ? Sep 09 18:06
_Doug benJIman: What are the names of the software companies involved in the LSE ? Sep 09 18:06
benJIman _Doug: Companies do not have to be software companies to develop software. Sep 09 18:07
benJIman I work as a softare developer for a media company. Sep 09 18:07
_Doug What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ? Sep 09 18:07
benJIman LSE and Microsoft. Sep 09 18:08
benJIman And possibly others. Sep 09 18:08
_Doug What are the names of the other companies involved in the LSE ? Sep 09 18:08
benJIman They are the only ones that I am aware of. Sep 09 18:08
_Doug Why can’t you say their name(s), ? Sep 09 18:08
benJIman I already did… Sep 09 18:09
_Doug What came up :) Sep 09 18:09
benJIman Why are you ignoring my answers? Sep 09 18:09
_Doug What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ? Sep 09 18:09
benJIman LSE and Microsoft. Sep 09 18:09
_Doug how many time have I asked that (50) ? Sep 09 18:09
benJIman And how many times have I answered that (50) ? Sep 09 18:09
_Doug What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE not called Microsoft and LSE? Sep 09 18:09
benJIman If you’re going to make a point then make it. Sep 09 18:09
benJIman _Doug: I am not aware of any others. Sep 09 18:09
_Doug What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE not called Microsoft and LSE? Sep 09 18:10
_Doug What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE not called Microsoft and LSE? Sep 09 18:10
_Doug What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE not called Microsoft and LSE? Sep 09 18:10
benJIman There may be some, there may not. Sep 09 18:10
_Doug What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE not called Microsoft and LSE? Sep 09 18:10
benJIman schestowitz: Perhaps you should kick _Doug as he is just repeating himself. Sep 09 18:10
_Doug Haaaa Sep 09 18:10
_Doug What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE not called Microsoft and LSE? Sep 09 18:10
_Doug benJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE not called Microsoft and LSE? Sep 09 18:11
mib_g4am4e geez, what part of his answer don’t you understand? Sep 09 18:11
_Doug benJIman: is Accenture involved ? Sep 09 18:11
benJIman I have no idea. Sep 09 18:11
benJIman It might be. Sep 09 18:11
schestowitz _Doug: I think it might. Sep 09 18:11
_Doug Haaaaa … you are so totally made !!! Sep 09 18:12
schestowitz I saw something about them the other day, but maybe it wasn’t LSE-related. Sep 09 18:12
schestowitz Let me check. Sep 09 18:12
benJIman Riiiiiiiight. Sep 09 18:12
schestowitz London Stock Exchange partners with Microsoft and Accenture to deliver key market data http://www.bobsguide.com/guide/ne… Sep 09 18:12
schestowitz Ha! Sep 09 18:12
schestowitz Accenture Case Study: London Stock Exchange-Data Warehouse http://whitepapers.zdnet.com/abstract.aspx?… Sep 09 18:12
benJIman Well there you go. Sep 09 18:13
_Doug “Accenture built the Tradelect platform in India between late 2004 and March this year” Sep 09 18:13
_Doug That explains it, al lthe callcenter staff in India were sleeping .. Sep 09 18:13
schestowitz 31 May 2007 – 16:12 : London Stock Exchange brings IT operations back in-house :The London Stock Exchange has decided not to extend its IT outsourcing contract with Accenture, and will bring its day-to-day IT operations back in-house as part of a new technology roadmap. http://www.finextra.com/fullstory.asp?id=16990 Sep 09 18:13
schestowitz Outsourcing. Sep 09 18:13
_Doug benJIman: why couldn’t you say Accenture ? Sep 09 18:14
benJIman _Doug: Because I was not aware that they had been contracted to develop it for LSE. Sep 09 18:14
schestowitz “Success story” : http://www.microsoft.com/business/success… Sep 09 18:14
_Doug benJIman: Was it the Accenture software written in India that was at fault in yesterdays crash Sep 09 18:14
schestowitz Oops! This one just vanished: http://www.accenture.com/Global/Se… Sep 09 18:15
_Doug “<benJIman>: _Doug: Because I was not aware” now who is telling porkies ;) Sep 09 18:15
benJIman _Doug: There is insufficient data upon which to make that determination. Sep 09 18:15
schestowitz No Google cache. Sep 09 18:15
benJIman It may have been, it may equally well have been a problem with Microsoft’s stack, or it might have been a system admin problem. Sep 09 18:15
schestowitz London Stock Exchange: Data Warehouse: http://www.accenture.com/Global/Techno… Sep 09 18:15
_Doug What do you do, when not trolling BN ? Sep 09 18:15
benJIman My original point was that we do not know. Which you seem to have trouble understanding. Sep 09 18:15
schestowitz Oh! Sep 09 18:16
schestowitz Mary Jo Foley has just posted about it: http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1578 Sep 09 18:16
schestowitz “Did Microsoft tech play a part in London Stock Exchange meltdown?” Sep 09 18:16
schestowitz “Microsoft lists the LSE as one of its touted customers, as profiled among its “Get the Facts” case studies. From Microsoft’s LSE case study, dated 2006:” Sep 09 18:16
schestowitz SPINOLA: “I asked Microsoft whether failure of any of its technologies contributed to the nearly seven-hour LSE failure. “We are working closely with the London Stock Exchange to understand the root cause of the problem,” a Microsoft spokeswoman said, via a prepared statement.” Sep 09 18:17
_Doug got to go be back later .. Sep 09 18:17
benJIman Don’t rush. Sep 09 18:17
schestowitz Tranlsation: we are unable to rule ourselves out, but we are working on “damage control’ PR Sep 09 18:17
schestowitz “”According to the Wall Street Journal, Monday’s outage was the second major technical failure for the LSE in less than a year. Sep 09 18:18
schestowitz “The Journal noted that problems with the TradeElect platform, which the LSE developed _____in conjunction with Microsoft_________ and deployed in 2007, also may have played a role in the latest London Exchange failure.” Sep 09 18:18
_Doug benJIman: what distros do you use ? Sep 09 18:28
benJIman _Doug: openSUSE. Sep 09 18:39
schestowitz Why not SLED? Sep 09 18:39
benJIman Because it’s old, and wasn’t based on a particularly good release. Plus I can’t contribute to it directly. Sep 09 18:41
_Doug No more openSuSE from Levono .. http://tinyurl.com/2savp9 Sep 09 18:52
schestowitz They will hopefully do it properly when they launch their notebook (netbook), probably with Ubuntu Remix Sep 09 18:53
schestowitz Or Linpus (Fedora) IIRC. No MS patent tax… Sep 09 18:54
_Doug Lenovo – Preloaded Linux models, There were no items matching your search. Sep 09 18:55
_Doug http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller… Sep 09 18:55
_Doug how is SLED older that openSuSE ? Sep 09 18:56
schestowitz It’s based on an older codebase. Sep 09 18:57
schestowitz OpenSUSE 11.0 was successful… more than predecessors if reviews are anything to go by. Sep 09 18:57
schestowitz 9.2, 3 was good too. Sep 09 18:58
_Doug I would inagine that “SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10″ would be more advanced then the openSuSE version? Sep 09 18:58
schestowitz It’s a failure for all I can tell. Novell loses money on it because rival east its lunch. Sep 09 18:59
schestowitz eat Sep 09 18:59
benJIman _Doug: It’s the same software really. Sep 09 18:59
benJIman _Doug: Usually a SLE release is based on an openSUSE x.1 release. Sep 09 18:59
benJIman It’s like a snapshot of openSUSE but maintained for longer. And they do service packs with new features throughout the lifecycle too. Sep 09 19:00
schestowitz You beat me to it, but there’s also a nice box. Sep 09 19:00
benJIman openSUSE comes in a box too. Sep 09 19:01
_Doug “If you want the Linux that works best with Windows and that won’t constrict your ability to support your business, partner with the company that’s partnering with Microsoft.” Sep 09 19:01
MinceR it would be nice if it didn’t have a novell logo on it :> Sep 09 19:01
schestowitz You can do that. Sep 09 19:01
schestowitz Pay a toll though. Sep 09 19:01
benJIman MinceR: Lots of openSUSE stuff has AMD logo on too now, not sure about the box. Sep 09 19:01
_Doug “constrict your ability to support your business”, sounds like a veiled threat to me ? Sep 09 19:01
MinceR so AMD is buying into the patent racket too? Sep 09 19:01
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/1… Sep 09 19:01
benJIman MinceR: No, AMD supports openSUSE financially. Sep 09 19:02
MinceR i think buying suse will at least attempt to constrict that ability Sep 09 19:02
MinceR as it is supporting parties who are trying to kill the platform you’re buying into. Sep 09 19:02
schestowitz I double-pasted, sorry. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0… Sep 09 19:02
_Doug I can do a Larry Ellison and strip off al the Novell logos and sell it as _DougsOnenSuSE .. :) Sep 09 19:02
benJIman _Doug: You may. Sep 09 19:02
MinceR i doubt they’ll let you call it *SuSE though Sep 09 19:03
schestowitz _Doug: not for free. Sep 09 19:03
benJIman _Doug: There are included utilities to assist with removing branding and remastering too. Sep 09 19:03
_Doug SuZE ? Sep 09 19:03
MinceR SuZE is still asking for a lawsuit imo. Sep 09 19:03
schestowitz You need to have access to the source code first. It’s not free. Novell build fences for the cloneSLEDs Sep 09 19:03
_Doug benJIman: legal rebranding ? Sep 09 19:03
benJIman SuSE is not pronounced SuZE. Sep 09 19:03
_Doug mine is :) Sep 09 19:04
schestowitz Souza. Sep 09 19:04
MinceR Sauce. Sep 09 19:04
_Doug _Dougs openSuZE .. Sep 09 19:04
benJIman schestowitz: Which I believe is a strategic mistake. Sep 09 19:04
MinceR OpenSauce. Sep 09 19:04
MinceR (and the slogan would be “MOAR!”) Sep 09 19:04
_Doug Novell have effectively make openSuSE a backwater, you’re wasting your time there. Sep 09 19:07
_Doug The support forum is mostly dead .. Sep 09 19:07
_Doug benJIman: what other distros have you tried ? Sep 09 19:11
benJIman _Doug: I have several images in VMs. I play with new releases when they come out and sometimes need to test things on debian systems etc. Sep 09 19:12
_Doug I’m wary of VM, besides which, with hardware so cheap, it’s simpler to put each in it’s own box .. Sep 09 19:14
benJIman Power is less cheap though. Sep 09 19:14
benJIman Costs me a couple of pounds a day to run a PC I think. Sep 09 19:15
_Doug Don’t you use your companies electricity, I know I do .. Sep 09 19:15
_Doug and their broadband .. Sep 09 19:16
benJIman At work I use windows boxes. Sep 09 19:16
_Doug Got a whole new IP block a while back … Sep 09 19:16
_Doug PUt a nix box in the server room, no-one will notice … Sep 09 19:17
_Doug I mostly use bash .. so remote isn’t a problem Sep 09 19:17
MinceR if no-one will notice, the admins are slacking off ;) Sep 09 19:18
benJIman I rent some servers and have access to several others in various places so have no need. Not to mention that would be unethical, unprofessional, and not actually possible with a competent company. Sep 09 19:18
_Doug I am the admin .. :) Sep 09 19:18
MinceR (unless the server room is shared or something) Sep 09 19:18
MinceR oh. Sep 09 19:18
MinceR that makes them easy to overlook ; Sep 09 19:18
MinceR ;) Sep 09 19:18
_Doug Head office is in Germany, so no supprise visits .. Sep 09 19:19
_Doug The rest are Microsoft trained sandwich makers .. Sep 09 19:19
_Doug I’m off .. Sep 09 19:19
*_Doug has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”) Sep 09 19:19
tessier_ Please, it’s “sandwich artist” Sep 09 19:52
tessier_ Get it right Sep 09 19:52
schestowitz http://www.redhat.com/magazine/025nov06/fe… Sep 09 19:53
tessier_ classic Sep 09 19:54
tessier_ xkcd rocks Sep 09 19:54
schestowitz at microsoft.com it reads “hold on, I’ll have to leave the house and come back again as Admin.” Sep 09 19:55
MinceR a Minesweeper Consultant and Solitaire Expert wouldn’t understand “sudo” :> Sep 09 19:57
benJIman Not a very good troll since vista’s priviledge escalation capabilities are significantly more advanced. Sep 09 19:57
MinceR (or should i say Certified Reset-button Pusher?) Sep 09 19:57
schestowitz benJIman ‘strikes again’. Never mind the reality. Sep 09 20:03
schestowitz The Truth About User Privileges : http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=11… Sep 09 20:03
schestowitz ‘Vista’s Account Protection: One Click and It’s Gone’: http://securitydot.net/news/exploits/vulne… Sep 09 20:03
schestowitz Microsoft: Turn off Vista’s UAC to fix problems : http://beta.amanzi.co.nz/2006/11/13/microso… Sep 09 20:03
schestowitz Windows Vista Tip: Run as administrator : http://windowsconnected.com/blogs/joshs_blo… Sep 09 20:04
schestowitz Vista: Slow and Dangerous : http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/Busine… Sep 09 20:04
schestowitz Windows Vista set to overwhelm helpdesks [...] “SupportSoft predicted that one of the main areas in which end-users are likely to experience problems will be dealing with Vista’s security features.” http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=44424 Sep 09 20:04
schestowitz Vista’s UAC security is hopeless, says Symantec : http://www.techworld.com/news/index.cfm… Sep 09 20:04
schestowitz Vista’s Faux Security [...] ‘At the end of the new Apple ad, the security guard finally asks the hapless PC: “You are coming to a sad realization. Cancel or allow?”‘ http://www.esecurityplanet.com… Sep 09 20:05
schestowitz “Oh, excuse me, is this supposed be a joke? We all remember all those Microsoft’s statements about how serious Microsoft is about security in Vista and how all those new cool security features like UAC or Protected Mode IE will improve the world’s security. And now we hear what?” http://theinvisiblethings.blogspo… Sep 09 20:05
schestowitz Windows Vista: Secure Or Just Frustrating? : http://www.theitarticles.com/wi… Sep 09 20:05
schestowitz Vista’s UAC needs an overhaul. Ideas? : http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=277 Sep 09 20:05
schestowitz Vista User Account Control and the Linux Superuser : http://weblog.infoworld.com/strat… Sep 09 20:06
schestowitz “So, when I was researching the way to determine the shadow storage size on Windows Vista for my February 23rd entry, I wasn’t too surprised when I got an error message about needing to elevate my privilege after I tried to run vssadmin from a standard command shell. What a Linux system would have done right there would be to ask me for the administrator password. Sep 09 20:06
schestowitz Researcher Reveals 2-Step Vista UAC Hack : http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2131595,00.asp Sep 09 20:06
schestowitz Learning to Live with UAC [...] “Hint: For those of you who haven’t figured it out yet, the option to disable UAC is buried under the User Accounts sub-section of the Control Panel. Ah, the bliss of no UAC! I could now do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted! It was just like Windows XP, but with a cooler UI!” : http://weblog.infoworld.com/enterprisedesk… Sep 09 20:06
schestowitz Security design: Why UAC will not work : http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/01/11/0… Sep 09 20:07
schestowitz Windows Forces you to use UAC to Add a Printer : http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/326 Sep 09 20:07
schestowitz Microsoft Exec: UAC Designed To ‘Annoy Users’ : http://www.crn.com/software/207100934?cid=CRNFeed Sep 09 20:07
schestowitz Microsoft: Users confused by Vista UAC prompts : http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,… Sep 09 20:07
schestowitz Didn’t Microsoft patent sudo? ;-) Sep 09 20:07
schestowitz It later advised Mac and Linux to ‘steal’ the idea of UAC. Sep 09 20:08
benJIman schestowitz: It’s not perfect but it’s better than the status quo on most gnu/linux distributions for several reasons. Sep 09 20:14
benJIman User will be prompted to raise privileges of a programme when required. Rather than having to exit and restart the programme with higher privileges. The whole application is not needed to be run as a privileged user. The same sort of thing is possible with policykit /if/ the applications are designed with it in mind. Most legacy apps are not. Sep 09 20:14
benJIman It also has several technological measures to make life more difficult for keyloggers and such. Sep 09 20:15
benJIman http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/… has some technical details Sep 09 20:15
benJIman None can protect it against the fact that it’s operating in a hostile environment. Malware will be written to defeat it no matter how good it is. Users get annoyed by it because they’re used to running with full privileges in old windows releases. Sep 09 20:16
benJIman On GNU/Linux you want to do an admin task you start the whole app with higher privleges, so all the GUI code is running as root too, making it vulnerable to exploits in things like image processing? fail. Sep 09 20:17
schestowitz Interesting comment: http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?… Sep 09 20:17
schestowitz “This is in sharp contrast to Novell’s strategy, which is in part, to ensure that GNU/Linux does not succeed as a desktop OS as part of their contractual obligation to Microsoft.” Sep 09 20:17
benJIman Heh, obviously not linking to the contract as there is no such clause. Sep 09 20:18
MinceR obviously not linking to the contract as it isn’t public. :> Sep 09 20:19
benJIman Well the author claims to know something. Sep 09 20:19
schestowitz It’s a consentual agreement. Novell keeps the Beast happy for some -food- coupon change. Sep 09 20:19
benJIman Microsoft is indirectly funding development of Free software. It’s great isn’t it. Sep 09 20:20
schestowitz *LOL* Sep 09 20:20
schestowitz benJIman: your defensive of everything Microsoft and Novell is audible. Sep 09 20:20
*benJIman counts three errors with that sentence. Sep 09 20:21
schestowitz Why are you ‘watching’  this channel again? Wait, I know the answer. To shout out to your mates at #opensuse when ‘backup’ is needed. Sep 09 20:21
benJIman I assume you meant Your defence of everything Microsoft and Novell is laudible. Sep 09 20:21
schestowitz benJIman: I type it down quickly. Sep 09 20:21
benJIman *laudable. Sep 09 20:22
benJIman I do not defend everything Microsoft. I do not even use their software. Sep 09 20:22
schestowitz I meant audible. Sep 09 20:22
benJIman As in “can be heard”? Sep 09 20:22
benJIman Nor do I like them, nevertheless, many of the statements you make are just incorrect. Trolling with false claims is not doing anyone any favours, and just serves to put any valid complaints you do have into disrepute. Sep 09 20:23
MinceR and what’s your stance on Novell and the patent racket? Sep 09 20:26
benJIman Back before long. Cooking dinner. Sep 09 20:28
*_Doug (i=c17a2faa@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-92e82132ba830a42) has joined #boycottnovell Sep 09 20:52
benJIman MinceR: You’d have to be a bit more specific. Sep 09 20:54
_Doug Just in, can anyone bring me up to speed ? MinceR, benJIman ? Sep 09 20:57
benJIman _Doug: You didn’t miss much. Just some debate as to the technical merits of UAC. Sep 09 21:00
_Doug Linux doesn’t have UAC, another win for MICROS~1 Sep 09 21:01
_Doug Or Windows Live OneCare, or AV .. is it safe to use on the Internet ? Sep 09 21:02
_Doug How does it protect against malware ? Sep 09 21:02
_Doug benJIman: why can’t you use Linux at work ? Sep 09 21:06
schestowitz benJIman: answer the question. Stop escaping it. Sep 09 21:06
schestowitz Don’t say how it “does say anything about OpenSUSE”. Sep 09 21:07
benJIman schestowitz: I was not sure what the question was. I have already stated my position on several things. Sep 09 21:08
schestowitz Let me ask you this: Sep 09 21:08
schestowitz I don’t like metal music, I don’t care so much for it. Yet I don’t enter metal forums trying to change people’s mind about it. So what attracted you to this channel? Sep 09 21:09
benJIman I find it entertaining. Sep 09 21:09
MinceR 221521 < _Doug> Linux doesn’t have UAC, another win for MICROS~1 Sep 09 21:09
MinceR rotfl Sep 09 21:09
schestowitz We have many discussions here because of you which are Windows vs Linux. Sep 09 21:10
benJIman Regarding my position on Novell/MS things. I think Microsoft selling SUSE coupons is great, it legitamises GNU/Linux to many businesses who might not have considered it before, not to mention it’s quite exciting that even Microsoft is all but selling Linux. Sep 09 21:10
schestowitz That’s the boring “my dick is bigger than yours” powwow and it’s pointless. Sep 09 21:10
benJIman I think the patent protection part of the agreement was poorly written, and at best worthless in its current form. Sep 09 21:11
schestowitz You’re here mostly playing the role of the troll, that’s my point. Sep 09 21:11
_Doug a not veery goos troll, IMHO Sep 09 21:11
MinceR benJIman: what about the FUD the patent deal was invented to support? Sep 09 21:11
schestowitz It ruins the discussion and if you purpose here is to ‘add balance’ or to ‘spy’, then maybe you should spend more time in channels that extol the ‘virtues’ (or virtualisation) of MS and Novell. Sep 09 21:12
benJIman Well the topic says “Exploring the reality” not “Ignoring all other viewpoints but my own” Sep 09 21:12
benJIman MinceR: It supporting FUD is your opinion. Sep 09 21:12
benJIman MinceR: Novell were very clear that that is not the intent, and they disagree with Microsoft’s statements regarding patents. Sep 09 21:12
benJIman MinceR: See http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft… for example. Sep 09 21:12
MinceR yet they’ve made the deal. Sep 09 21:12
benJIman I don’t dispute that some in Novell management are epic noobs. Sep 09 21:13
schestowitz benJIman: I won’t be spending any more time discussing these things with you. Don’t take it personally. Sep 09 21:13
_Doug Not a good deal, they could have gone for a do not sue Novell, instead of a do not sue endusers Sep 09 21:13
MinceR they could have gone for a “you don’t have anything to show for your patent claims so go fuck yourself” Sep 09 21:14
_Doug And Novell, could have extended the coverage to all Linuxes, and therefore bought a great deal of good will Sep 09 21:14
MinceR just like everyone else did. Sep 09 21:14
_Doug MinceR: yea !!! Sep 09 21:14
benJIman _Doug: Quite. Sep 09 21:14
_Doug And MS selling Novell ‘vourchers’ is the dumbest business deal ever, in the history of dumest deals !!! Sep 09 21:15
MinceR all ballmer keeps saying about the patent issue is that some patents are being infringed upon but not which Sep 09 21:15
MinceR that makes it pretty obvious that they don’t have a case. Sep 09 21:15
_Doug benJIman: I won’t be talking to you either, no offence !! Sep 09 21:15
_Doug gtg .. Sep 09 21:16
*_Doug has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”) Sep 09 21:16
tessier_ I dunno, Novell seems to be making money on it. At least in the short term. In the long run they’ll probably be toast. But better to have a job for a couple more years than be toast today. Sep 09 21:31
schestowitz Their ‘Linux’ business is still just a small portion Sep 09 21:34
*moparx (n=moparx@pdpc/supporter/base/moparx) has joined #boycottnovell Sep 09 21:57
MinceR novell is making money on supporting m$ FUD that harms GNU/Linux Sep 09 21:58
MinceR that is inexcusable. Sep 09 21:58
schestowitz And irrefutable. Novell kept its mouth shut when Microsoft attacked GNU/Linux and said that Novell justifies this. Sep 09 22:01
schestowitz I’ll never forget it: http://boycottnovell.com/2007/05/19/n… Sep 09 22:01
benJIman schestowitz: Not really “We disagree with the recent statements made by Microsoft on the topic of Linux and patents. Importantly, our agreement with Microsoft is in no way an acknowledgment that Linux infringes upon any Microsoft intellectual property. When we entered the patent cooperation agreement with Microsoft, Novell did not agree or admit that Linux or any other Novell offering violates Microsoft patents.” Sep 09 22:05
schestowitz The world was denouncing the threats and Novell…? Nothing. Like the selfish kid grinning and watching the bully hitting everyone with a baseball bat. Sep 09 22:05
MinceR how is it not an acknowledgement if it includes microsoft not suing for patent claims novell says are not defensible? Sep 09 22:10
MinceR if they know linux doesn’t violate any patents, why sign a covenant about patents? Sep 09 22:10
MinceR does novell think we’re that gullible? Sep 09 22:10
benJIman MinceR: Well you can read their statement at http://www.novell.com/linux/microsof… . Any other questions you’d have to email the address on that page and ask. Sep 09 22:11
MinceR even if they make such a statement, that doesn’t change the fact that they’ve signed the deal. Sep 09 22:11
MinceR it only makes novell a bunch of liars. Sep 09 22:11
schestowitz That’s not /denouncing/. I was aware of the statements. Sep 09 22:11
schestowitz Classic maneuver of “blame the bully” Sep 09 22:12
schestowitz Gates & Sweaty B have done this for decades. Blame the “bad Cop” Sep 09 22:12
MinceR benJIman: can you provide an alternative reason for such a patent deal? (also considering that it could be seen before signing the deal that m$ will use it in its FUD campaign) Sep 09 22:13
schestowitz “Microsoft is a bunch of nice people, it’s all the management’s fault” Sep 09 22:13
schestowitz “Novell is a bunch of nice people, it’s all the management’s fault” Sep 09 22:13
MinceR too bad the management decides the direction the company goes and all its policies Sep 09 22:14
benJIman MinceR: My personal belief is that Microsoft suggested it for whatever reason and the Novell people involved (which wasn’t very many) didn’t see the problems with it until it was too late. But it’s all speculation. Sep 09 22:14
MinceR so novell people don’t consider a deal seriously before signing it? Sep 09 22:14
MinceR they must be really, really stupid. Sep 09 22:14
benJIman Well from a legal point of view it was all above board. Sep 09 22:15
schestowitz Selfish, not stupid. Sep 09 22:15
schestowitz They knew what they had done. Sep 09 22:15
schestowitz (the upper management) Sep 09 22:15
schestowitz Novell /INITIATED/ this deal. Sep 09 22:15
benJIman Interpret it how you will. In my experience incompetence is more likely than malice. Sep 09 22:15
benJIman I’m not sure they initiated the patent aspect though. Sep 09 22:16
MinceR if it’s a selfish deal, they’re still stupid — they’re blatantly harming the community that produces most of the value their own customers use Sep 09 22:16
MinceR it’s not a good business strategy to give your own customers the finger in the hope of getting money from one of your biggest and most devious competitors. Sep 09 22:17
*PeterKraus (n=Peter@78-86-98-119.zone2.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell Sep 09 22:35
schestowitz http://blogs.computerworld.com/london_… : London Stock Exchange suffers .NET Crash Sep 09 22:47
schestowitz Sep 09 22:47
schestowitz On top of this runs the TradElec software itself. This is a custom set of C# and .NET programs, which was created by Microsoft and Accenture, the global consulting firm. Its back-end databases, believe it or not, run on Microsoft SQL Server 2000. The goal was to maintain sub-ten millisecond response times. In short, it’s meant to be a real-time system. “ Sep 09 22:47
*PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Sep 09 22:48
tessier_ So do we know what caused the crash yet? Sep 09 22:50
tessier_ Was it Dot Not? Sep 09 22:50
*mib_g4am4e has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”) Sep 09 22:54
tessier_ schestowitz: It seems he has no idea what caused the problem either. Sep 09 22:55
schestowitz http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/s… Sep 09 22:57
schestowitz “In June last year the LSE switched from its 10-year-old Sets system in favour of a new platform called TradElect, which runs on Microsoft software.” Sep 09 22:57
schestowitz 1 year, two days of failures. Not bad, eh? What’s that? Like 99% uptime? For a stock market? Sep 09 22:57
tessier_ USDOJ shopping for a lawyer for google anti-trust suit? /. Sep 09 23:01
tessier_ What has google done to maintain a monopoly? Sep 09 23:01
tessier_ I will be seriously pissed if they go after google but don’t go after MS Sep 09 23:01
tessier_ Two days of failures? Did they have another outage prior to the most recent 6 hour outage? Sep 09 23:01
schestowitz It’s Microsoft who’s behind this. Sep 09 23:03
schestowitz They use a variety of proxies to stir things up. Let me find an example… Sep 09 23:03
schestowitz It’s a case of an abusive corrupt monopoly using its abusive corrupt nature to accuse others of being dangerous:  http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/15/l… Sep 09 23:04
*trmanco has quit (“I just hit the close button :)”) Sep 09 23:06
*ld50 (n=m@ has joined #boycottnovell Sep 09 23:09
schestowitz http://www.osnews.com/story/20266/Pate… Sep 09 23:14
schestowitz http://www.linuxtoday.com/ne… It has just occurred to me that IBM and Lenovo recently started talking about Open Client or whatever they call that Red Hat/Ubuntu/SUSE Lotus combo they announced in LinuxWorld. Lenovo admitted that it spoke to IBM about it, so it could be related. Sep 09 23:24
MinceR http://hasthelargehadroncollide… Sep 09 23:32
schestowitz Heh. Try it with JS disabled (me by default). Sep 09 23:33
*ld50 has quit (“Lost terminal”) Sep 09 23:34
schestowitz Check out the page source:  “if the lhc actually destroys the earth & this page isn’t yet updated please email mike@frantic.org to receive a full refund” Sep 09 23:35
MinceR :) Sep 09 23:35
schestowitz *yawn* Sep 09 23:49
*schestowitz is away: Passed out Sep 09 23:49
MinceR http://sackheads.org/~bnaylor/spew/away_msgs.html Sep 09 23:50
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Pages that cross-reference this one


  1. Dan O'Brian said,

    September 10, 2008 at 9:21 am


    Typical BN logic in this IRC discussion.

    To summarise:

    Roy and Doug conclude that the crash must be in the .NET stack (and therefor Microsoft’s fault) simply because TradeElect was written on top of .NET.

    With that logic, if Adobe Flash crashes while watching videos on YouTube, it must be a GNU bug because Flash uses glibc.

    <_Doug> I am the admin .. :)

    Now, that’s a scary thought… having an incompetent admin running a business’s servers.

    Imagine an ethernet cable goes bad. This guy would blame the router/hub/switch without doing any sort of debugging to figure out what the problem actually was.

  2. AlexH said,

    September 10, 2008 at 9:47 am


    I did notice that, too.

    To be fair, it very well could be a problem with the .net platform. Given that there is no alternative GNU/Linux middleware, though, it seems a bit churlish to chide LSE for going .net – is going MQ/series really “better”?

  3. Dan O'Brian said,

    September 10, 2008 at 10:01 am


    Agreed. It /could/ be a problem in Microsoft’s .NET framework, but as benjIman was pointing out – it could just as easily be a bug in TradeElect.

    Same with my example, if my browser crashes while watching Flash videos on YouTube, it could be a bug in Flash, Firefox, glibc, or a number of other libraries.

    The point is, that without all the facts, it’s impossible to conclude where the bug is.

    My other point, of course, is that this doesn’t stop the likes of Roy and his uneducated comrades from drawing conclusions on insufficient evidence and then using said conclusion to attack people, projects, or companies.

  4. Roy Schestowitz said,

    September 10, 2008 at 10:05 am



  5. AlexH said,

    September 10, 2008 at 10:18 am


    @Dan: Indeed it’s more likely to a problem outside of .net than inside it.

    @Roy: the problem is, LSE are trying to sell this system to other markets. It doesn’t make a genius to figure out why they would want to shift the blame for any problem in it.

    As for SJVN’s commentary about whether or not .net can handle it: it seems that he’s made up his mind without any obvious qualifications or expertise in transactional processing. The fact is, the framework – be it .net, Java or whatever – is pretty irrelevant to this.

  6. Roy Schestowitz said,

    September 10, 2008 at 10:22 am


    “This is a custom set of C# and .NET programs, which was created by Microsoft and Accenture.

  7. Dan O'Brian said,

    September 10, 2008 at 10:24 am


    It wouldn’t matter if Microsoft wrote TradeElect by itself, that doesn’t prove that the problem was in .NET.

  8. Roy Schestowitz said,

    September 10, 2008 at 10:28 am


    It demonstrates a shoddy Microsoft system and that Get the Facts campaign is false advertising after those two collapses.

  9. Dan O'Brian said,

    September 10, 2008 at 10:29 am


    How does it prove that? Until you can prove that the bug was in .NET, you can’t prove either of your assertions – they both rely on the bug being in the .NET framework.

  10. AlexH said,

    September 10, 2008 at 10:31 am


    @Roy: it doesn’t matter if one part of the system was written in .net; that’s not the totality of what crashed:

    “It is suspected that the problem has something to do with the LSE’s “SETS” trading platform, since the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, which uses the same platform, is also shut down.”


    SETS is not .net based, nor does the JSE use the new .net-based TradElect: SETS is about 10 years old, and was responsible for previous crashes (e.g., Tokyo).

    Putting the blame on .net seems a bit premature.

  11. twitter said,

    September 10, 2008 at 10:36 am


    If a history of failure is not proof what would be, Mr. O’Brain? There’s the Hotmail debacle, Amazon search and many other examples of M$ pushing their buggy junk onto systems that worked well for years. The result is always failure. After a decade of such failure, the onus of proof is on M$ in these matters.

    Reasonable doubt is not reasonable in the face of operational history. Saying M$ is not to blame for their IT failures is like saying it’s impossible to prove smoking causes cancer or that global warming is man made.

  12. Roy Schestowitz said,

    September 10, 2008 at 10:37 am


    Alex, who said anything about .NET? I’m talking about the system.

  13. AlexH said,

    September 10, 2008 at 10:53 am



    Roy, you wrote: “It demonstrates a shoddy Microsoft system [..] after those two collapses.”

    You’re talking about “the system” as if it were all Microsoft’s doing. It’s not; SETS pre-dates the Microsoft system by many years and has crashed before.

  14. Roy Schestowitz said,

    September 10, 2008 at 11:09 am


    We don’t know yet what caused the crash and the system was down regardless. Claiming 100% uptime is false.

  15. AlexH said,

    September 10, 2008 at 11:19 am


    Since we don’t know what caused the crash, why did you say it “demonstrates a shoddy Microsoft system” ?

  16. Roy Schestowitz said,

    September 10, 2008 at 11:20 am


    See comment #6.

  17. AlexH said,

    September 10, 2008 at 11:32 am


    Circular reasoning, Roy. You said you didn’t know what caused the crash, so how does your comment about part of the system being based on .net bring any new facts to the table?

    If it does demonstrate the “shoddy Microsoft system” as you claim, why did the JSE also fail? Was it out of sympathy?

  18. Roy Schestowitz said,

    September 10, 2008 at 11:41 am



    I wonder what they run. It could be a synchronisation issue. To be fully convinced we must wait for proper analysis.

  19. AlexH said,

    September 10, 2008 at 11:43 am


    They run SETS as I have already explained.

  20. Roy Schestowitz said,

    September 10, 2008 at 11:46 am


    Maybe a .NET downtime in London affected their “connectivity” with another SETS system.

  21. AlexH said,

    September 10, 2008 at 11:55 am


    Maybe it did, or maybe that’s jumping to conclusions.

  22. Gentoo User at Slashdot said,

    September 10, 2008 at 3:29 pm


    Not really relevant, but I noticed “twitter” from Slashdot is here. Anyone who is thinking of even listening to this person should read this:


    Note: comment arrived from a witch hunter that does not even use GNU/Linux.

  23. Baby In The Bath Water said,

    September 10, 2008 at 4:23 pm


    @Twitter: It’s funny how whenever the BN fan-boys like you know their argument has lost, they immediately fall back to “Microsoft is guilty until proven innocent! I don’t have to prove their guilt in this case, you have to prove their innocence!”

    Yea. Whatever.

    Luckily in the Real World, people are innocent until proven guilty. But good to know that in your fantasy land, everyone is guilty until proven innocent. Good luck with that.

    Note: this comment was posted from Novell’s headquarters.

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    IRC logs for Saturday, December 07, 2019

  9. 5 Years Ago the Linux Foundation Turned Linux.com Into a Non-Linux Site

    One can leverage the Internet Archive’s Wayback Machine to better understand how, over time, the Foundation called “Linux” deviated or diverged away from its mission statement for the sole purpose of raising corporate funds and selling influence to corporations (passing the community’s hard work to them — a form of tacit privatisation)

  10. Microsoft Redefining Ownership and Identity of GNU/Linux

    The idea that “Microsoft loves Linux” is as insane as it gets; but the lie which is “Microsoft loves Linux” is a powerful enabler of Microsoft entryism, e.g. if Greg steps down, does a Microsoft employee become the deputy of Linus Torvalds?

  11. Things That Cannot Be Said

    The limits on what we can say are mostly defined by what sources permit us to say publicly (for the sake of source protection)

  12. Fake European Patents (on Algorithms) Leading to Fake Embargoes

    Law firms have gotten their way in Germany; instead of supporting the productive workers the patent system is nowadays promoting the litigation 'industry' and it ought to be corrected

  13. From Moderate Advice to FUD and Misinformation: The Case of a VPN Vulnerability (CVE-2019-14899)

    What should have been a trivial bugfix in a variety of operating systems and bits of software — both proprietary and Free software — somehow became anti-Linux FUD, clickbait and worse

  14. Dangerous Thinker

    Society oughtn't be alarmed by people who say unusual things; it should be wary and sceptical of those corporations ever so eager to silence such people

  15. Unitary Patent (UPC) Died Along With the Credibility of Managing IP and the Rest of the UPC Lobby

    It is pretty astounding that Team UPC (collective term for people who crafted and lobby for this illegal construct) is still telling us lies, even in the absence of underlying supportive facts, and pressure groups disguised as "news sites" latch onto anything to perpetuate an illusion of progress (even in the face of a growing number of major barriers)

  16. IRC Proceedings: Friday, December 06, 2019

    IRC logs for Friday, December 06, 2019

  17. Links 7/12/2019: Fedora 31 Elections Results, Lots of Media Drama Over VPN Bug

    Links for the day

  18. Links 6/12/2019: DRM in GNU/Linux and Sparky Bonsai

    Links for the day

  19. The EPO Rejects Innovation

    The EPO ceased caring about the needs of scientists whose work involves invention; instead, EPO management crafts increasingly lenient guidelines that yield illegal European Patents (not compatible with the EPC) that heavily-besieged EPO judges are unable to stop

  20. Startpage CEO Robert Beens in 'Damage Control' Mode, Trying to Get Startpage Relisted After Selling to a Massive Surveillance Company

    PrivacytoolsIO is being lobbied by the CEO of Startpage to relist Startpage, based on no actual refutations at all

  21. IRC Proceedings: Thursday, December 05, 2019

    IRC logs for Thursday, December 05, 2019

  22. Links 5/12/2019: qBittorrent 4.2.0, Expensive Librem 5 and OpenBSD Bugs

    Links for the day

  23. Microsoft Staff Repeatedly Refuses to Tell How Many People Use WSL, Defends Patent Extortion and Blackmail of Linux Instead

    The people who develop WSL (mostly Microsoft employees) get easily irritated when asked how many people actually use this thing; but more interestingly, however, they reveal their disdain for GNU/Linux and support for Microsoft blackmail (for 'Linux patent tax')

  24. IRC Proceedings: Wednesday, December 04, 2019

    IRC logs for Wednesday, December 04, 2019

  25. Links 4/12/2019: Tails 4.1, UCS 4.4-3 and Proxmox VE 6.1

    Links for the day

  26. Google Tightens Its Noose

    Now it’s official! Google is just a bunch of shareholders looking to appease the Pentagon at all costs

  27. Europeans Still Need to Save the European Patent Office From Those Who Attack Its Patent Quality

    Patent quality is of utmost interest; without it, as we're seeing at the EPO and have already seen at the USPTO for a number of years, legal disputes will arise where neither side wins (only the lawyers win) and small, impoverished inventors or businesses will be forced to settle outside the courts over baseless allegations, often made by parasitic patent trolls (possessing low-quality patents they don't want scrutinised by courts)

  28. We Never Accepted and Will Never Accept Corporate Money

    Corporate money is a unique problem because of its magnitude and the fact that it's impersonal; shareholders can only ever accept its supposed justifications if they're receiving something in return (of proportional worth to the payment/transaction)

  29. IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, December 03, 2019

    IRC logs for Tuesday, December 03, 2019

  30. Links 3/12/2019: elementary OS 5.1 Hera, Plasma 5.17.4, Firefox 71

    Links for the day

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