EditorsAbout the SiteComes vs. MicrosoftUsing This Web SiteSite ArchivesCredibility IndexOOXMLOpenDocumentPatentsNovellNews DigestSite NewsRSS

10.01.08

Interview with Richard Stallman, Founding Father of Free Software

Posted in Free/Libre Software, FSF, GNU/Linux, GPL, Interview at 6:59 pm by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

GNU @ 25 Special

Richard Stallman

I was entirely away on that special GNU day, so here is my interview which is being posted on this belated anniversary.

For information about the anniversary, see the message from FSF Europe or Linux Magazine.

The GNU Project celebrated its 25th birthday on September 27, 2008. With its GCC compiler and bash shell, GNU was ever at the forefront of today’s Linux distribution. To kick off the celebration, British humorist Stephen Fry appears in a video in defense of free software.

Now, here is the older article:

When Richard Stallman announced the GNU Project back in 1983, he planted the seeds of what rapidly evolved and recently became a revolution that transforms entire nations. The Free Software Foundation, which was also created by Richard Stallman and now sponsors the GNU Project, has probably become a center of attention to those who are affected by the most widely-used software license, the GNU GPL.

We discussed some of the more recent developments with Richard Stallman, whose passion for freedom in computing remains intense. The following Q & A explores the goals of free software, progress that has been made, and ways to maintain or instill freedom in software that we use.

Q: In the past few years we have come to find a number of countries which decided to embrace Free software as a matter of policy.
Many people attribute such milestones to your travels around the globe.

Richard Matthew Stallman: They may be focusing too much on me personally and giving insufficient credit to the rest of the movement. In Ecuador, I personally won the support of President Correa, but that’s the only such case I remember. In other countries, other people did most the persuasive work. For instance, the activists of FSF India persuaded the government of Kerala to begin the migration to free software; I could not have done that.

Q: How do you balance the need to preach to groups and individuals,
including world leaders, and other important activities such as writing
the GNU General Public License version 3 (GPLv3)?

RMS: It is only occasionally that I have a large project such as GPLv3.
Most of my work consists trying to spread awareness of the ideas of
free software, and I do it mostly by answering emails such as yours.

The basic idea of the Free Software Movement is that the social
conditions for use of software are vitally important — more important
even than the software’s technical characteristics. A free program
respects your freedom and the social solidarity of your community
with four essential freedoms:

0. The freedom to run the program as you wish.

1. The freedom to study the program’s source code and then change it
so the program does what you wish.

2. The freedom to distribute exact copies to others, when you wish.

3. The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to
others, when you wish.

Everyone knows how to exercise freedoms 0 and 2. If you don’t know
how to program, then you don’t know how to exercise freedoms 1 and 3;
but when programmers do so, you can install their modified versions if
you wish, so you get the benefits. You can also ask or pay
programmers to make the changes you would like to use.

Q: Because software does not have a long history, your sources
of inspiration appear not to include people whose life legacy is
associated with software. Would you say that the nature of their impact
has motivated you to address ethical and moral issues that are not
necessarily related to software?

RMS: I was taught ideals of human rights growing up in the United States in
the 60s, and then was inspired by the Civil Rights Movement and the
Antiwar Movement. So I have cared about issues of freedom since
before I began programming. Later I started working at the MIT
Artificial Intelligence Lab and experienced the free software way of
life. Then I took an unusual step: I connected the free software
community’s way of life with the ideals of freedom I had learned.
The result was the Free Software Movement, a movement to give computer
users the freedom to cooperate and to control their own computing.

“I, as a software developer, had a responsibility to fight to end unethical practices in software development. ”

However, my focus on this particular issue of freedom doesn’t mean I’ve lost interest in others freedom issues. It’s simply that this issue dropped in my lap: I, as a software developer, had a responsibility to fight to end unethical practices in software development. If I did not do so, I would be a victim of them, and very likely at the same time a perpetrator.

In the past decade, I’ve tried to use the limited fame I’ve gained
from the GNU system and the free software movement as a platform to
take action on some other human rights and environmental issues, in
stallman.org. I’m not one of the leaders on those issues but I’m glad
I can help.

Q: Some of the more ubiquitous GNU/Linux distributions are ones
which incorporate proprietary drivers and other proprietary
software. When and where (in the system) is it acceptable to make
short-term compromises in order to create a userbase large enough to
make Free software compelling for the entire industry to support? Is a
so-called “critical mass” needed at all?

RMS: The central idea of the Free Software Movement is that you deserve the
four freedoms, and that taking them away from you is wrong. If we
were to grant legitimacy to certain non-free software merely because
it is convenient, that would contract the central idea. It would be
hypocritical, and it would defeat the whole point. You cannot advance
the cause of freedom by legitimizing the denial of freedom.

The people that put non-free software into GNU/Linux distributions do
so precisely because they are not concerned with users’ freedom. They
are not supporters of the Free Software Movement, and they usually
don’t speak about “free software” at all. Instead they talk about
“open source”, a term coined in 1998 to duck the ethical issues of
freedom and social solidarity and focus only on practical convenience.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html for
more explanation.

Q: There are ongoing efforts and even complete projects that
mimic Microsoft technologies and bring their functionality to GNU/Linux.
How would you say one should handle the need to interact with peers who
rely on Microsoft technologies while at the same time maintaining one’s
freedom?

RMS: I am all in favor of implementing in free software the languages, file
formats and protocols popularized by non-free software, when we can do
so. However, in many cases these formats and protocols are secret,
which means we must do difficult reverse engineering, or patented,
which means that implementing them is prohibited. These legal
obstacles to the development of free software are among the biggest
threats we face.

Q: Recently, with various software patent deals, Microsoft has
attempted to marginalize GNU/Linux by adding price and liability to
certain distributions of it. What do you think would be the effect of
embracing such distributions?

RMS: A meaningful discussion of software patents has to start by explaining
what software patents are, and what they do.

A patent is an artificial government-imposed monopoly on implementing
a certain method or technique. If the method or technique can be
implemented by software, so that the patent prohibits the distribution
and use of certain programs, we call it a software patent.

A large program implements thousands of methods and techniques
together. Each one of them is an idea that might be patented, and
thus represents a possible lawsuit against the program’s developers
and its users. Thus, software patents make software development a
dangerous activity. They are an absurd system and ought to be
abolished entirely.

Free software is vulnerable to software patents, just like proprietary
software and custom software (most of the software industry develops
custom software).

I intend to do everything possible to stop Microsoft (or anyone) from
converting free software into proprietary software through the use of
software patents. Microsoft’s deal with Novell tried to do that,
and we designed version 3 of the GNU GPL to thwart that scheme.

Q: Microsoft encourages developers to build Web sites that
incorporate Silverlight. For GNU/Linux to be able view Silverlight
objects, Moonlight, which is built on top of Mono, needs to be
downloaded from Novell’s Web site. Would you advise GNU/Linux users to
install Moonlight and accept such changes in the World Wide Web?

RMS: Moonlight is free software, so I don’t see anything bad about
installing Moonlight as such. It seems that the reason it needs to be
downloaded from Novell’s web site is that it isn’t ready to be
included in any GNU/Linux distros. However, I don’t know what
Moonlight actually does.

What I can say in general is that we should continue to demand that
web sites use standard (and unpatented) formats and protocols, and put
pressure on those that don’t.

Q: What about Adobe Flash and its equivalent viewers, such as gnash, which is Free software?

RMS: Flash illustrates the problems that arise when web sites use nonstandard
proprietary formats. I am glad that Gnash, our free Flash player is
making progress, but we had to wait years for this.

People who don’t value their freedom are likely to lose it. This is
just as true in computing as in other areas of life, and Flash is an
example. Flash is inherently a problem because it requires a non-free
plug-in. But how did the problem grow to a significant size? This
happened because many web users installed the Flash plug-in without
first checking whether it was free software. Their foolish disregard
for their own freedom made them vulnerable.

The development of Gnash means we may be able to put an end to this
particular outbreak of non-freedom. But if people don’t learn to stop
installing non-free plug-ins, the web will be vulnerable to other
outbreaks in the future. It is a lot less work to avoid these
problems than to fix them. We need to teach people to refuse to
install non-free plug-ins; we need to teach people to care more about
their long-term interest of freedom than their immediate desire to
view a particular site.

Q: Research shows that the GPLv3 is gaining acceptance. In the mailing lists of the Linux kernel, a hypothetical scenario was described where Linus Torvalds et al might consider upgrading their kernel’s license to the GPLv3. This scenario involved Sun’s OpenSolaris (project ‘Indiana’) and its choice of a license. What would you say is the greatest advantage for a kernel — any kernel for that matter — in adopting the GPLv3?

RMS: Kernels (and other programs) don’t really matter — people do. So the
issue here is how moving Linux to GPLv3 would affect the users of
Linux, including the users of the combined GNU/Linux system.

The most relevant aspect of GPL version 3 is the prohibition on
tivoization. Tivoization is the practice of building machines that
come with free software preinstalled, and that are designed to shut
down if you install a modified version of the free software. In
effect, tivoization turns freedom 1 (the freedom to modify the program
to make it do what you wish) into a theoretical fiction.

As long as Linux continues to be distributed under GPL version 2,
manufacturers will be allowed to tivoize it and thus stop users from
changing it and controlling their own computing. This is why Linux
needs to move to GPLv3.

Q: Simon Phipps (of Sun Microsystems) has spoken about the GPLv3 on numerous occasions and he even inquired to see what Bob Sutor, Vice President of Open Source and Standards at IBM, thought about it. If Sun decided to embrace the GPLv3 for its software, including OpenSolaris, would you be willing to endorse OpenSolaris?

RMS: OpenSolaris is already free software, and I can endorse it as such.
If Sun releases it under GPLv3, that will be even better; however,
when choosing between free programs, the main factor is practical.

Q: Linus Torvalds once referred to you as “the great
philosopher” and he also argued that we should think of him as the
engineer. He is clearly very focused on what he does so well. Do you
believe that there are dangers that he is not aware of?

RMS: I am sure he is aware of the dangers. The problem is that there are some
he doesn’t care about. For instance, he seems not to care about the danger
to your freedom posed by tivoization.

Q: If you were allowed to have only one piece of software,
what would it be, assuming that underlying components like an operating
system were already provided?

RMS: There’s a confusion in the question, because all the programs I use
are part of the GNU/Linux operating system. Even the games I
sometimes play are included in the gNewSense distribution which I use.

But if the question is which single user-interactive program is most
important to me, that is GNU Emacs. I spend most of my day using
Emacs to edit files, to read mail, to send mail, to compile, to search
files, and many other things. Of course, GNU Emacs is included in
gNewSense, and in most of the GNU/Linux distributions. I developed
GNU Emacs initially in 1984-5, specifically for the GNU system.

Originally published in Datamation in 2007 and reached the front page of Digg

Share this post: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages.
  • Digg
  • del.icio.us
  • Reddit
  • co.mments
  • DZone
  • email
  • Google Bookmarks
  • LinkedIn
  • NewsVine
  • Print
  • Technorati
  • TwitThis
  • Facebook

If you liked this post, consider subscribing to the RSS feed or join us now at the IRC channels.

Pages that cross-reference this one

2 Comments

  1. Dan O'Brian said,

    October 7, 2008 at 9:55 am

    Gravatar

    RMS: Moonlight is free software, so I don’t see anything bad about
    installing Moonlight as such.

    I found that hilarious.

    Must have been a big slap in the face, huh Roy? ;-)

  2. Ramon Thomas said,

    October 18, 2008 at 3:37 pm

    Gravatar

    Thank you very much for this excellent interview because I never bothered with Stallman until I began reading Vandana Shiva and John Pilger.

What Else is New


  1. The US Patent and Trademark Office’s (USPTO) Patent Trial and Appeal Board (PTAB) Maintains High Pace of Patent Invalidation, in Spite of Appeals to CAFC

    The Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (CAFC), i.e. the court system, has become the last resort of serial litigators, as the PTAB gets in their way more and more often following AIA and Alice



  2. Good Luck to the US Supreme Court in Eliminating a Supremely Unjust Misuse of Patent Law

    In an important upcoming patent case, gross abuse of patent laws for the support of dubious business models can finally be tackled



  3. EPO Protest This Coming Wednesday Strives to Restore the Rule of Law and Freedom of Speech at the Office

    The level of autocracy at the European Patent Organisation, an institution which has effectively positioned itself above the law with Battistelli and his minions in charge of the Office, faces growing backlash from staff



  4. The EPO is Collapsing. Attacks on Journalists, Interns as Staff, Patents on Plants, and Bureaucratic Red Tape...

    A look at some of the latest issues surrounding the European Patent Office, whose insistence on denying the problems and instead attacking those who bring up legitimate concerns, will spell its doom



  5. Ignore the Bristows UPC Echo Chamber, the UPC is Not Happening

    Response to some of the latest UPC promotion, courtesy of some of the usual suspects, who stand to benefit financially if the UPC ever becomes a reality



  6. British Media Slams Battistelli for Attempting to Cover Up 2 Years of Juridical Abuses With Help From the Administrative Council of the EPO

    A growing voice of concern about the integrity of the European Patent Organisation, whose management appears to be in cahoots (overseers/regulators included) so as to cover up its own serious abuses



  7. Boards of Appeal Still Under Attack From Team Battistelli While the EPO Proceeds to Granting Patents on Carlsberg BEER!

    The lunacy of the EPO with its patent maximalism will likely go unchecked (and uncorrected) if Battistelli gets his way and turns the EPO into another SIPO (Croatian in the human rights sense and Chinese in the quality sense)



  8. Memo “Deliberately Leaked to Cover up the UPC” With Its Many Associated Issues Amid Brexit

    Some eye-opening updates about the awkward move from Lucy Neville-Rolfe, who made promises (expression of intent) she can neither fulfill nor justify to the British public



  9. Links 8/12/2016: Korora GNU/Linux 25, SparkyLinux 4.5.1

    Links for the day



  10. Links 7/12/2016: ROSA Desktop Fresh R8 Plasma 5, Ubuntu Touch OTA-14

    Links for the day



  11. The UPC Scam Part VII: A Fine Mess in the Making, as Nothing Can be Made of It Amid/After Brexit

    The final part in this multi-part series about UPC, which cannot be implemented in the UK as long as Brexit is on the agenda



  12. The UPC Scam Part VI: The Real Story Which People Missed Due to Puff Pieces Seeded by Battistelli-Bribed Media is That UPC Technically Cannot Come to the UK

    Another long installment in a multi-part series about UPC at times of post-truth Battistelli-led EPO, which pays the media to repeat the lies and pretend that the UPC is inevitable so as to compel politicians to welcome it regardless of desirability and practicability



  13. EPO Spiraling Down the Drain as Experienced Examiners and Judges Are Seemingly Being Replaced by Interns

    Implementing yet more of his terrible ideas and so-called 'reforms', Battistelli seems to be racing to the bottom of everything (patent quality, staff experience, labour rights, working conditions, access to justice etc.)



  14. A Lot of News From the Supreme Court (SCOTUS) Today, With Some Important Decisions on Patents Coming Soon

    A roundup of today's outcomes from the US Supreme Court, which intends to review and decide on important patent cases



  15. In Historic Blow to Design Patents, Apple Loses to Samsung at the Supreme Court

    A $399 million judgment against Android devices from Samsung, with potential implications for other Android OEMs, is rejected by SCOTUS



  16. Good Riddance. Ray Niro is Dead.

    The infamous father of patent trolling is dead, so we need to remember his real legacy rather than rewrite his history to appease his rich relatives (enriched by destroying real companies)



  17. EPO Suicides Greater in Number Than is Widely Reported, Unjust System a Contributor to These

    The horrible regime of Benoît Battistelli has an enormous human toll (fatalities), far greater than the Office is willing to publicly acknowledge



  18. Lobbying Disguised as 'Reporting' by the Patent Microcosm, Which Wants More Patents and More Lawsuits (Lawyers Needed)

    A rebuttal to some new articles about patents, especially those that strive to increase patent-related activities (usually for personal gain)



  19. USPTO Echo Chamber That Lacks Actual Software Professionals Deciding on Patentability of Software

    A look at yesterday's "Roundtable on Patent Subject Matter Eligibility," which lacked involvement from those actually affected by patents rather than those who sell, trade, and exploit these



  20. More Examples of Microsoft and Its Patent Trolls Taxing Linux, Even After Microsoft 'Joined' (Paid) the Linux Foundation

    A quick look at the past week's news and clues about Microsoft's (and its broad army of patent trolls) strategy for taxing Linux, or imposing bundling at zero cost (to Microsoft)



  21. Heiko Maas, the SPD “Cash for Access” Affair, and Suspicions of Unwarranted Censorship at IP Kat (Again)

    Unsayable views or just a glitch? Readers of IP Kat express concern about a culture of censorship at IP Kat



  22. Endgame for Battistelli at the European Patent Office (EPO)

    Battistelli turns bad into worse by spitting on the very notion of accepting justice (from the highest court in The Hague or even the UN in this case)



  23. Les Échos Chamber: Having Corrupted the Media (With EPO Money), Battistelli Now Uses It for More UPC Propaganda

    The lies about the Unitary Patent are now being broadcast (Battistelli given the platform) by the publication that Battistelli pays



  24. Rumour: EPO in Berlin the Next Casualty of Battistelli's 'Reform' (Organisational Suicide Plan)

    Months after we learned that a former staff representative in Berlin had been dismissed we come across an anonymous claim that Berlin's 'branch' of the EPO will be folded onto Munich's



  25. Caricature: the Maas App

    The failure of Maas to even bother with regulation of Battistelli (among others) earns him this cartoon



  26. Links 5/12/2016: Linux 4.9 RC 8, DeepMind as FOSS

    Links for the day



  27. Leaked: Battistelli Acknowledges Bunk 'Justice' in About 100 Cases at the Internal Appeals Committee of the EPO

    A look at Battistelli's response to the latest from the International Labour Organisation (ILO), exceptionally delivering two decisions at the very end of last month



  28. The UPC Scam Part V: Unitary Patent Regime a Fantasy of Patent Trolls

    "Good for trolls" is a good way to sum up the Unitary Patent, which would give litigators plenty of business (defendants and plaintiffs, plus commissions on high claims of damages) if it ever became a reality



  29. EPO at a Tipping Point: Battistelli Quarrelling With French Politicians, Administrative Council Urged to Act, Staff Unrest Peaking

    The latest messages about Battistelli's regime at the EPO, which faces growing opposition from more directions than ever before



  30. Quality of Patents at the EPO Dependent on the Appeal Boards When Battistelli Assesses Performance Using the Wrong 'Production' Yardstick

    A look at some recent articles regarding patent quality in the US and in Europe, in particular because of growing trouble at today's EPO, which marginalises the appeal boards


CoPilotCo

RSS 64x64RSS Feed: subscribe to the RSS feed for regular updates

Home iconSite Wiki: You can improve this site by helping the extension of the site's content

Home iconSite Home: Background about the site and some key features in the front page

Chat iconIRC Channel: Come and chat with us in real time

CoPilotCo

Recent Posts