03.15.09

^{Gemini version available ♊︎}

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 14th, 2009 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 4:06 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.

_Hicham_	he was president due to his genealogy	Mar 14 21:16
schestowitz	In a world where a country is powerful enough, the laws is aughed upon	Mar 14 21:16
balzac	Don’t ask me why he subverted our military and our constitution.	Mar 14 21:16
schestowitz	Reminds me of MS in IT..	Mar 14 21:16
_Hicham_	he even participated to 9/11	Mar 14 21:16
balzac	Bush’s every action were those of a man who hated America with a fiery passion.	Mar 14 21:16
schestowitz	Law is just a recommendation, not a boundry	Mar 14 21:16
schestowitz	Microsoft bribed? OOPS.	Mar 14 21:16
schestowitz	Sorry about that…	Mar 14 21:16
schestowitz	That would be bad publicity	Mar 14 21:16
schestowitz	But never will you see Steve and Bill brought to trial.	Mar 14 21:17
schestowitz	In the US, rich people can’t go to jail	Mar 14 21:17
schestowitz	There’s the notion ogf bail or settlement	Mar 14 21:17
_Hicham_	in all the world	Mar 14 21:17
schestowitz	Which means th nation would accept a bribe to let the people go	Mar 14 21:17
trmanco	Digg messed up the recomendation engine	Mar 14 21:17
_Hicham_	except scandinavian countries	Mar 14 21:17
schestowitz	_Hicham_: no genealogy, he stole the election	Mar 14 21:17
schestowitz	Bush never really won the 200 election	Mar 14 21:18
schestowitz	It was a fraud	Mar 14 21:18
trmanco	I have 1 frontpage article in the upcoming/recommended page	Mar 14 21:18
schestowitz	*2000	Mar 14 21:18
trmanco	wtf	Mar 14 21:18
schestowitz	trmanco: Digg is broken	Mar 14 21:18
*trmanco thinks on making his own social site		Mar 14 21:18
schestowitz	And it’s gamed heavily so I don’t even bother reading it. It declines overalll.	Mar 14 21:18
schestowitz	They maybe should have sold, but I’m glad they didn’t	Mar 14 21:19
trmanco	I have a screen, if you want proof	Mar 14 21:19
schestowitz	OK, put in ohotobucket	Mar 14 21:19
schestowitz	*poto	Mar 14 21:19
schestowitz	*photo	Mar 14 21:19
Balrog__	heh	Mar 14 21:19
_Hicham_	balzac : did u setup ur desktop well?	Mar 14 21:20
schestowitz	balzac: new one: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics… (Secret emails show Iraq dossier was ‘sexed up’)	Mar 14 21:21
seller_liar	schestowitz: No roy, In Brazil it’s not known	Mar 14 21:21
schestowitz	seller_liar: still a newcomer	Mar 14 21:21
schestowitz	What’s amazing is that almost 8 years later they manage to find more evidence of corruption from high up at the top — stuff that couldn’t be found for so many years	Mar 14 21:22
trmanco	schestowitz, will Tinypic do? It belong to Photobcucket	Mar 14 21:22
schestowitz	trmanco: sure	Mar 14 21:22
trmanco	belongs	Mar 14 21:22
balzac	Roy, remember the guy who originally introduced the phrase “sexed up” in the context of the Iraq war sales pitch?	Mar 14 21:22
trmanco	maybe I should host it too, for future reference	Mar 14 21:22
balzac	Found dead, full of sleeping pills, wrists slit.	Mar 14 21:22
balzac	Consider him a murder victim of the Bush/Blair crime syndicate.	Mar 14 21:23
balzac	Tony Blair – Bush’s man-servant	Mar 14 21:23
trmanco	schestowitz, http://i44.tinypic.com/j7qfjn.jpg	Mar 14 21:23
trmanco	the one with 322 diggs is on the frontpage	Mar 14 21:24
schestowitz	Corporate legal scrambles to withdraw inflated Palm Pre claims < http://www.roughlydrafted.com/200… >	Mar 14 21:24
schestowitz	balzac: I seee…	Mar 14 21:24
schestowitz	David Kelly, right?	Mar 14 21:24
schestowitz	we discussed this in IRC last year	Mar 14 21:24
balzac	Tony Blair should only get 10 years in prison as part of a plea-bargain deal. He has to deliver the goods to jail Bush for life.	Mar 14 21:24
balzac	yep	Mar 14 21:24
schestowitz	Mysterious death that seems like elimination as much as a suicide	Mar 14 21:25
balzac	he was just about to testify, and he was angry, not depressed.	Mar 14 21:25
balzac	and he was afraid for his life.	Mar 14 21:25
balzac	lots of people died like that during Bush’s reign	Mar 14 21:26
schestowitz	trmanco: is it s bug?	Mar 14 21:26
schestowitz	Or was it denied entry?	Mar 14 21:26
trmanco	IMO, it’s a bug	Mar 14 21:26
balzac	I think he was a victim of the executive assassination ring Sy Hersch mentioned recently	Mar 14 21:26
trmanco	first time this happened to me	Mar 14 21:26
balzac	ok, time for me to get some work done	Mar 14 21:26
schestowitz	Digg is so bizarre. But if I submit and let it just do its thing I can make FP after 70 diggs. Those who cheat need much more… over 1000	Mar 14 21:27
schestowitz	*!00	Mar 14 21:27
tacone	schestowitz: will you ever accept my friendship on digg ?	Mar 14 21:27
schestowitz	tacone: does it need confirmation?	Mar 14 21:27
*amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))		Mar 14 21:27
schestowitz	I’m already maxed up on number of friends added (1001)	Mar 14 21:27
tacone	oh	Mar 14 21:27
tacone	leave it alone then.	Mar 14 21:28
tacone	i am already your ‘fan’ on digg. that’s sufficent	Mar 14 21:28
balzac	enjoy these photos of Bora Bora	Mar 14 21:28
balzac	http://www.latimes.com/tra…	Mar 14 21:28
schestowitz	A lot of ‘friends’ are bots	Mar 14 21:28
schestowitz	Silly spammer create them and then mass-add	Mar 14 21:28
tacone	so what ? i am a bot myself.	Mar 14 21:28
schestowitz	Some sort of network harvesting or something	Mar 14 21:28
tacone	balzac: any higher resolution version ?	Mar 14 21:29
schestowitz	balzac: 6th pic is soothing, then I saw the 7th (shark)	Mar 14 21:29
schestowitz	balzac: does Bora Bora suffer from a credit /crunch/?	Mar 14 21:30
balzac	I know nothing about bora bora, but I’m working for a travel agency, so I found those pics in the course of a day at work.	Mar 14 21:31
balzac	tacone: wysiwyg	Mar 14 21:31
tacone	sigh	Mar 14 21:32
schestowitz	balzac: dreams have limitations: http://www.panoramio.com/ph…	Mar 14 21:33
Balrog__	:/	Mar 14 21:34
schestowitz	Stormy weather… never like in the catalogs… also Google Maps there.	Mar 14 21:34
Balrog__	if only everyone would use unicode….	Mar 14 21:34
schestowitz	Too many bits	Mar 14 21:34
*Balrog__ is now known as Balrog_		Mar 14 21:34
*seller_liar has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”)		Mar 14 21:35
_Hicham_	Balrog : if microsoft go down, everyone will use unicode	Mar 14 21:36
schestowitz	http://en.wikipedia.org/w…	Mar 14 21:36
_Hicham_	sexy bora bora during storm	Mar 14 21:38
schestowitz	“A series of devastating events killed or removed almost the entire population of Easter Island in the 1860s. In December 1862, Peruvian slave raiders struck Easter Island. Violent abductions continued for several months, eventually capturing or killing around 1500 men and women, about half of the island’s population”	Mar 14 21:38
Balrog_	in this case, the person I got files from used Pagemaker (obsolete); does not want to buy InDesign or re-learn stuff.	Mar 14 21:40
_Hicham_	Balrog : he should use LaTeX	Mar 14 21:43
_Hicham_		Mar 14 21:43
Balrog_	don’t you get “or re-learn stuff”?	Mar 14 21:45
Balrog_	WYSIWYG	Mar 14 21:45
_Hicham_	WYSIWYG is not always good	Mar 14 21:46
_Hicham_	and u know that	Mar 14 21:46
Balrog_	well, it does help	Mar 14 21:46
Balrog_	not everyone is a geek.	Mar 14 21:47
_Hicham_	Maybe OpenOffice.org then	Mar 14 21:47
Balrog_	that could work	Mar 14 21:47
Balrog_	there’s an app called scribus designed for that though	Mar 14 21:48
Balrog_	FOSS	Mar 14 21:48
MinceR	225430 < Balrog_> not everyone is a geek.	Mar 14 21:49
MinceR	not everyone has access to mind-reading computers either :>	Mar 14 21:49
Balrog_	I’m not talking about myself	Mar 14 21:49
*amarsh04__ (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-29-112.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 14 21:49
Balrog_	computers should give users options	Mar 14 21:50
Balrog_	if users want to do it by hand, let them	Mar 14 21:50
Balrog_	if users want WYSIWYG, let them	Mar 14 21:50
_Hicham_	scribus looks great	Mar 14 21:52
schestowitz	It is great	Mar 14 21:52
schestowitz	a friend of mine who works in a publishing house says that she and other there use it	Mar 14 21:52
schestowitz	They dump the Microsoft software and other stuff like Adobe. They use Linux too.	Mar 14 21:53
_Hicham_	Great, a publishing house with Linux	Mar 14 21:54
_Hicham_	!	Mar 14 21:54
schestowitz	There are many that use latex or lyx. knuth uses ubuntu	Mar 14 22:01
Balrog_	schestowitz: many people still use wordperfect	Mar 14 22:03
trmanco	http://www.youtube.com/wat…	Mar 14 22:03
Balrog_	simply because it’s both wysiwyg and has ‘codes’	Mar 14 22:03
trmanco	Windows is a problem to Windows	Mar 14 22:03
Balrog_	s/some/many	Mar 14 22:04
_Hicham_	Knuth uses Ubuntu?	Mar 14 22:04
*amarsh04_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))		Mar 14 22:04
_Hicham_	Shuttleworth must be flattered	Mar 14 22:05
_Hicham_	they must to the study cases	Mar 14 22:05
_Hicham_	who uses drupal in here?	Mar 14 22:05
_Hicham_	no one	Mar 14 22:06
_Hicham_	?	Mar 14 22:06
schestowitz	OSS illusion: http://www.informationweek.com/new…	Mar 14 22:06
schestowitz	“The Idou is the first smartphone to officially announce it will run the open source Symbian operating system, which is expected to be completed next year. Nokia shocked many last year when it purchased the remaining shares of Symbian and said it would turn it into a royalty-free, open source operating system for smartphones. “	Mar 14 22:07
schestowitz	Symbian/Nokia just tries to blur gaps.	Mar 14 22:07
schestowitz	_Hicham_: but not GNOME	Mar 14 22:07
schestowitz	trmanco: I get a headache just watching it	Mar 14 22:09
trmanco	lol	Mar 14 22:09
_Hicham_	Roy : what has gnome to do with that?	Mar 14 22:09
schestowitz	_Hicham_: http://www.reddit.com/comments/6h5fh/k…	Mar 14 22:09
schestowitz	trmanco: Windows crash log. imagine if cars had that…..	Mar 14 22:10
trmanco	schestowitz, cars would not existe then	Mar 14 22:11
trmanco	exist*	Mar 14 22:11
tacone	horses ?	Mar 14 22:11
_Hicham_	a crash log for cars?	Mar 14 22:12
_Hicham_	no one uses drupal in here?	Mar 14 22:14
_Hicham_	no one?	Mar 14 22:15
_Hicham_	roy uses wordpress?	Mar 14 22:15
schestowitz	trmanco: point is…	Mar 14 22:15
_Hicham_	what do u use Balrog?	Mar 14 22:15
schestowitz	Microsoft should go ahead to prevent crashed	Mar 14 22:15
schestowitz	*crashes	Mar 14 22:15
schestowitz	Not just report them	Mar 14 22:15
schestowitz	Diagnostics = symptoms, not cure	Mar 14 22:15
trmanco	they won’t	Mar 14 22:16
trmanco	they prefer advertising, lipstick	Mar 14 22:16
schestowitz	In Linux it’s kernel “oops”	Mar 14 22:16
schestowitz	KDE crashes are very, very rare	Mar 14 22:16
schestowitz	COmmon in 4.0 I hear	Mar 14 22:16
_Hicham_	gnome crashed only two times for me	Mar 14 22:17
_Hicham_	one time because of java	Mar 14 22:17
schestowitz	I wonder if people are born sensitive to advertising	Mar 14 22:17
_Hicham_	and the second time because of matlab	Mar 14 22:17
schestowitz	Or maybe it’s something that arrives through indoctrination (education)	Mar 14 22:17
_Hicham_	Roy : you are an advertiser too	Mar 14 22:18
schestowitz	There’s the theory about subconscious penetrating judgment	Mar 14 22:18
schestowitz	_Hicham_: you could claim this about making any opinion	Mar 14 22:18
schestowitz	But I’m thinking about “proprganda”/PR	Mar 14 22:19
schestowitz	When it’s done in an organised fashion to deceive	Mar 14 22:19
schestowitz	Like sell a war	Mar 14 22:19
schestowitz	Or sell people a product they need	Mar 14 22:19
schestowitz	When deceiving people becomes an occupation	Mar 14 22:19
_Hicham_	u should learn from they Roy	Mar 14 22:20
_Hicham_	if u want to combat ur enemy, u better learn from him	Mar 14 22:20
schestowitz	Blankenhorn is sort of trolling OSS again.	Mar 14 22:22
_Hicham_	and u should have a big beard to combat microsoft	Mar 14 22:22
schestowitz	Headlines like “Is the new open source Eurolicense eurotrash?” and “PC moment for open source may lack profit “	Mar 14 22:22
schestowitz	And MOG (Microsoft shill) is trying to stick together Microsoft and OSS	Mar 14 22:23
schestowitz	_Hicham_: I don’t advertise	Mar 14 22:23
schestowitz	I expose their startegy	Mar 14 22:23
schestowitz	Things like shill agencies, dumping, bribes, etc. Zuck, CompTIA etc… teaching how brutally corrupt the system is	Mar 14 22:24
schestowitz	You don’t fight the pig by wrestling with it in the mud. You both get dirty this way…	Mar 14 22:24
Balrog_	_Hicham_: I use what is available at the moment	Mar 14 22:25
_Hicham_	so no one in here is using drupal:-(	Mar 14 22:26
balzac	_Hicham_:	Mar 14 22:26
balzac	I use Drupal	Mar 14 22:26
Balrog_	drupal for…?	Mar 14 22:26
balzac	websites	Mar 14 22:27
balzac	what else is it good for?	Mar 14 22:27
schestowitz	The banner and blog looks much better now: Negative Approach is now Software, Interrupted < http://news.cnet.com/8301-1384… >	Mar 14 22:27
tacone	drupal makes also good coffee	Mar 14 22:27
schestowitz	Dripp drip..	Mar 14 22:27
benJIman	schestowitz: “Novell have released” is a bit inaccurate when the work isn’t done by a novell employee and it’s not released by novell	Mar 14 22:29
_Hicham_	balzac : do u use the xmlsitemap module?	Mar 14 22:29
balzac	not yet. Don’t you need a special php extension for that?	Mar 14 22:29
balzac	xdebug to enable back-tracing for the purpose of mapping?	Mar 14 22:29
_Hicham_	what php extension?	Mar 14 22:30
balzac	xdebug	Mar 14 22:30
_Hicham_	nothing is mentioned in the doc	Mar 14 22:30
balzac	lemme see	Mar 14 22:30
_Hicham_	ok	Mar 14 22:30
schestowitz	benJIman: I know	Mar 14 22:31
schestowitz	It’s accurate	Mar 14 22:31
schestowitz	Novell is people	Mar 14 22:31
schestowitz	beineri is Novell	Mar 14 22:31
schestowitz	I forgot his full name now…	Mar 14 22:31
benJIman	schestowitz: http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3902	Mar 14 22:32
balzac	http://drupal.org/project/site_map	Mar 14 22:32
balzac	that’s a different module, _Hicham_	Mar 14 22:32
schestowitz	Balrog: to hell with Novell (it rhymes)	Mar 14 22:33
schestowitz	He’s one of their better people	Mar 14 22:33
Balrog_	heh	Mar 14 22:33
schestowitz	Don’rworry	Mar 14 22:33
schestowitz	His wage is not gone	Mar 14 22:33
balzac	http://drupal.org/project/vis… <– this is the one I was thinking of, _Hicham_	Mar 14 22:34
schestowitz	Hovo Sapient can build a new sauna at homne	Mar 14 22:34
balzac	xml site map doesn’t have a version for Drupal 6 yet	Mar 14 22:34
schestowitz	$8 million in bonuses for one year can buy loads	Mar 14 22:34
_Hicham_	xmlsitemap is for submitting sitemap to search engines	Mar 14 22:34
_Hicham_	yes	Mar 14 22:34
_Hicham_	that is my problem balzac	Mar 14 22:34
_Hicham_	the dev version doesnt work	Mar 14 22:34
balzac	Hovo Sapient sounds like an evil scientist	Mar 14 22:34
balzac	who is trying to evolve himself to the next level of evolution to attain supremecy over everyone else	Mar 14 22:35
balzac	Hovo Sapient, the mad, megalo-maniacal doctor who is his own greatest experiment	Mar 14 22:35
schestowitz	“Just out of curiosity, why did Novell fire so many OpenSuSE developers? AFAIK, you were a good employee and a talented developer (unless N is planning to drop KDE >:(. (no, I don’t want to start a conspiracy theory.))”	Mar 14 22:36
schestowitz	Balrog: he works with Uncle Fester	Mar 14 22:36
schestowitz	balzac:	Mar 14 22:36
balzac	Roy, he already extracted their DNA with syringes and their egos through special cranial-caps, so they’re useless to him now.	Mar 14 22:37
schestowitz	“I´m getting worry about the future openSUSE project.”	Mar 14 22:37
schestowitz	Balrog: well, good luck to him	Mar 14 22:37
balzac	He has absorbed their vital essences to increase his vitality	Mar 14 22:37
schestowitz	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6rqXHX3O48	Mar 14 22:38
balzac	Why was Steve Ballmer sweating and screaming “Developers, developers, developers!”	Mar 14 22:38
balzac	Because Steve Ballmer also extracts their vitality to make a special cognition-enhancing breakfast shake	Mar 14 22:38
balzac	He has their brains liquified and sucked out through their ear canal	Mar 14 22:39
balzac	At Microsoft, the executives can pull out any developer’s heart-plug at any moment	Mar 14 22:39
balzac	man, I should be the creative director for a game	Mar 14 22:40
schestowitz	3d?	Mar 14 22:40
schestowitz	gnu+gurlz?	Mar 14 22:40
schestowitz	How’s dat comin’ along. You us ya model !11	Mar 14 22:41
balzac	Roy, that was a good mash-up	Mar 14 22:42
balzac	Roy, the game would be about Imperial Microsoft of the future and the free software rebels who resist them.	Mar 14 22:43
balzac	Hovo Sapient, Ballmer, devourer of developers, MS authoritarianism in a macabe science fiction future	Mar 14 22:44
balzac	the sound track would feature a lot of industrial drum & bass	Mar 14 22:44
balzac	The proprietary software developers would not understand that they were being cognitively castrated by their overlords, their egos consumed by the executive class.	Mar 14 22:45
*seller_liar (i=c92ad382@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-733882bac608d6e8) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 14 22:45
balzac	meanwhile, the free software guys are the most dangerous enemy of the empire because we still have full virility and the power to please the trophy wives of the overlords	Mar 14 22:46
balzac	so the free software rebels are feared and reviled	Mar 14 22:46
balzac	Roy, I’m glad this channel is logged because I’m on a roll here	Mar 14 22:46
balzac	ok, back to work…	Mar 14 22:48
Balrog_	what do you guys think of non-foss freeware from independent developers?	Mar 14 22:52
*tacone (n=tacone@213-156-53-16.ip.fastwebnet.it) has left #boycottnovell		Mar 14 22:53
schestowitz	balzac: hehe, thanks.	Mar 14 22:55
schestowitz	Balrog: mostly harmless from my POV	Mar 14 22:55
schestowitz	Freeware lags behind FOSS most of the time	Mar 14 22:56
Balrog_	what about low-cost stuff…like <= $40	Mar 14 22:56
Balrog_	yes, in many cases	Mar 14 22:56
schestowitz	It’s also at risk of being abandonware	Mar 14 22:56
Balrog_	there are some cases where foss still needs work.	Mar 14 22:56
Balrog_	Yes, I’ve seen that	Mar 14 22:56
schestowitz	Needs work =opportunity	Mar 14 22:56
schestowitz	Like compiler which was a gap to be filled (GCC)	Mar 14 22:57
Balrog_	what do you think of LLVM and clang?	Mar 14 22:57
schestowitz	I don’t use LLVM	Mar 14 22:57
Balrog_	it’s MIT-licensed	Mar 14 22:57
Balrog_	and may possibly replace GCC :O	Mar 14 22:58
seller_liar	it ‘s not good	Mar 14 22:58
Balrog_	seller_liar: elaborate	Mar 14 22:58
seller_liar	gcc is gplv3 , is a very important part of gnu linux system	Mar 14 22:59
Balrog_	yes.	Mar 14 22:59
seller_liar	the gnu linux system cannot be infected with mit licenses	Mar 14 22:59
Balrog_	llvm license: http://llvm.org/releases/2.5…	Mar 14 22:59
seller_liar	gnu linux is free	Mar 14 22:59
Balrog_	MIT license is like BSD license	Mar 14 22:59
seller_liar	not permissive	Mar 14 22:59
Balrog_	no copyleft	Mar 14 23:00
Balrog_	but otherwise fully FOSS	Mar 14 23:00
seller_liar	The gnu linux must maitain gcc ,because of license nature	Mar 14 23:00
trmanco	http://gandolf.homelinux.org/blo…	Mar 14 23:00
trmanco	hehe	Mar 14 23:00
Balrog_	(mit license is the correct name for X11 license)	Mar 14 23:00
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balzac	I don’t see open source licenses replacing free software licenses where it really matters	Mar 14 23:00
seller_liar	Mit ,bsd and other permissive licenses permits proprietary software	Mar 14 23:01
Balrog_	yes.	Mar 14 23:01
balzac	copyleft licenses keep a strong software community, acting as the social contract	Mar 14 23:01
Balrog_	it can be forked though … right?	Mar 14 23:01
Balrog_	or even incorporated into gcc…..	Mar 14 23:01
seller_liar	Yes	Mar 14 23:01
Balrog_	or am I wrong…?	Mar 14 23:01
seller_liar	Some licenses permits , others not	Mar 14 23:01
Balrog_	well, clang is already useful for finding memory leaks	Mar 14 23:02
balzac	The GNU project and the FSF need to shake down the fat cats	Mar 14 23:02
seller_liar	This is a crazy project	Mar 14 23:02
oiaohm	Forking licence like GPL might permit it but name of program can be trademarked	Mar 14 23:02
Balrog_	llvm is an acronym	Mar 14 23:02
seller_liar	clang takes 3 or more years to complete	Mar 14 23:02
Balrog_	‘low level virtual machine’	Mar 14 23:02
seller_liar	I don t like to repeat the same work	Mar 14 23:02
seller_liar	We already have a good c compiler	Mar 14 23:03
seller_liar	why another?	Mar 14 23:03
Balrog_	I understand that LLVM/Clang aren’t just a c compiler	Mar 14 23:03
oiaohm	What do you mean good?	Mar 14 23:03
seller_liar	gcc is good	Mar 14 23:03
oiaohm	Gcc still needs masive work so it works.	Mar 14 23:03
Balrog_	http://llvm.org/	Mar 14 23:03
seller_liar	LLVM is good , but clang is another repetitive task	Mar 14 23:03
oiaohm	Lack of link time optimisation	Mar 14 23:03
oiaohm	Histrotic hacked up structs.	Mar 14 23:03
Balrog_	clang is a frontend for LLVM	Mar 14 23:03
seller_liar	We must focus in desktop area , not in development area	Mar 14 23:03
Balrog_	(c language)	Mar 14 23:03
oiaohm	Do you want Linux to run with performance seller_liar	Mar 14 23:04
seller_liar	linux is very good using gcc	Mar 14 23:04
seller_liar	My machine is very powerful too	Mar 14 23:04
oiaohm	Current Linux is limping speed compared to what it can be with portland group complier building same source code.	Mar 14 23:04
seller_liar	Not all optimization is dependant of compiler	Mar 14 23:05
seller_liar	for more speed , we need to create more dependant code	Mar 14 23:05
oiaohm	Lack of linktime optimistation in current gcc cripples lot of programs.	Mar 14 23:05
seller_liar	like liboil	Mar 14 23:05
oiaohm	Lack of means to turn single threaded applications into multithreaded to take advantage of multi cores is another.	Mar 14 23:05
seller_liar	I don t like C	Mar 14 23:05
Balrog_	seller_liar: Linux is C/C++	Mar 14 23:06
seller_liar	I like java ,eiffel , sather and lisaac	Mar 14 23:06
seller_liar	I know	Mar 14 23:06
oiaohm	Portland group complier has both.	Mar 14 23:06
oiaohm	llvm was also designed to find secuirty flaws in programs.	Mar 14 23:06
seller_liar	eiffel is amazing language	Mar 14 23:06
seller_liar	I know , llvm is good	Mar 14 23:06
seller_liar	but clang is another monotone task	Mar 14 23:07
oiaohm	Its bit like gold linker vs ld.	Mar 14 23:07
seller_liar	3 or 5 years to complete	Mar 14 23:07
seller_liar	http://liboil.freedesktop.org/wiki/	Mar 14 23:07
seller_liar	we need invest time in another more powerful languges	Mar 14 23:07
seller_liar	for example	Mar 14 23:07
seller_liar	Sather	Mar 14 23:07
seller_liar	http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/~s…	Mar 14 23:08
oiaohm	use portland group complier some time seller_liar	Mar 14 23:08
seller_liar	lisaac ( the real alternative to c)	Mar 14 23:08
seller_liar	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisaac	Mar 14 23:08
oiaohm	optimiser of portland group is magical.	Mar 14 23:08
seller_liar	I don like c because is very old and easy to fail	Mar 14 23:09
oiaohm	Again depends on the complier seller_liar	Mar 14 23:09
seller_liar	no ,	Mar 14 23:09
oiaohm	It does seller_liar	Mar 14 23:09
seller_liar	c needs a lot of code to do a simple task	Mar 14 23:09
seller_liar	pointers ,arghhhh	Mar 14 23:10
seller_liar	very dirty language	Mar 14 23:10
seller_liar	Java is amazing	Mar 14 23:10
seller_liar	is clean	Mar 14 23:10
oiaohm	When developing drivers pointer is useful.	Mar 14 23:11
seller_liar	have 3rd party support for contracts , aspects and a lot of other languahes	Mar 14 23:11
seller_liar	I prefer lisaac	Mar 14 23:11
seller_liar	Lissac is very good to system programming	Mar 14 23:11
seller_liar	Look this benchmark	Mar 14 23:11
seller_liar	people use c because of standarlization and portability and legacy	Mar 14 23:11
seller_liar	http://isaacproject.u-strasbg…	Mar 14 23:12
seller_liar	Lisaac is a incomplete languge but veeery powerful for system programming	Mar 14 23:12
oiaohm	lissac is another in the lines http://www.ctalklang.org/	Mar 14 23:12
seller_liar	contracts , and OOP	Mar 14 23:12
oiaohm	Many have been created over the years. Yet C remains.	Mar 14 23:13
seller_liar	yes, I know, but c is old	Mar 14 23:13
seller_liar	People use c because….	Mar 14 23:13
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seller_liar	a lot of people uses c!	Mar 14 23:13
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oiaohm	Lot of people use C because C++ that in theory should have been better in performance is not.	Mar 14 23:14
schestowitz	Hi, seller_liar	Mar 14 23:15
*schestowitz catches up		Mar 14 23:15
seller_liar	schestowitz: hello roy	Mar 14 23:15
seller_liar	oiaohm: yes, because of flexibility	Mar 14 23:15
seller_liar	oiaohm: c is very dirty and and have a lot of hacks	Mar 14 23:15
seller_liar	oiaohm: but is very simple and very easy to destroy something	Mar 14 23:15
oiaohm	Supprising hard to destory something with a complier that truly does audit your code.	Mar 14 23:16
seller_liar	oiaohm: maybe	Mar 14 23:16
seller_liar	oiaohm: But this is not a good solution	Mar 14 23:16
oiaohm	C++ and C are both let down by the quality of there compliers.	Mar 14 23:17
seller_liar	oiaohm: Because of development of compilers	Mar 14 23:17
seller_liar	oiaohm: but we can create powerful compilers for java too	Mar 14 23:17
oiaohm	Issue is way better compilers than MSVC and Gcc exist for C and C++.	Mar 14 23:17
oiaohm	Problem is they are not free.	Mar 14 23:18
seller_liar	oiaohm: I don t like msvc	Mar 14 23:18
oiaohm	msvc beats gcc in lots of cases because it has link time optimisation.	Mar 14 23:18
oiaohm	Link time optimisation equals smaller and faster programs.	Mar 14 23:18
seller_liar	oiaohm:and probably knows better windows api	Mar 14 23:18
seller_liar	oiaohm: Like icc	Mar 14 23:19
oiaohm	icc slow compared to portland group.	Mar 14 23:19
seller_liar	ICC and msvc is more fast because of knowledge of apis	Mar 14 23:19
oiaohm	Nop	Mar 14 23:19
seller_liar	Msvc is windows dependeent	Mar 14 23:19
schestowitz	yes	Mar 14 23:20
seller_liar	msvc compiled apps runs better in windows	Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz	that’s the thing	Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz	You think win development	Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz	Like that silly IE benchmark	Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz	Microsoft spreads the illusion that IE is fast	Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz	It only shows Windows	Mar 14 23:20
seller_liar	icc compiler runs slow in some amd chips but runs fast in intel chips	Mar 14 23:20
oiaohm	Build envorment yes. You can build MSVC embeded application without windows dependancy.	Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz	It does the same game with office	Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz	They build the OS to prod their wares	Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz	Recall netscape trial	Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz	Borland too	Mar 14 23:20
oiaohm	Performance if MSVC on embed is still fast than gcc.	Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz	I have lots of Comes docs I’ll do later this years about it	Mar 14 23:21
schestowitz	Criminal activity/dirty tricks	Mar 14 23:21
schestowitz	So re: MSVC	Mar 14 23:21
schestowitz	You’re thinking about exe builds	Mar 14 23:21
seller_liar	oiaohm: This can happen ,but gcc 4.4 is doing a good work in optimization	Mar 14 23:21
schestowitz	Think cross platform	Mar 14 23:21
schestowitz	Windows is passe for many things	Mar 14 23:21
schestowitz	People who are engineers use real systems, not WIndows	Mar 14 23:21
oiaohm	Gcc is at long last catch up to what should have been done from the start.	Mar 14 23:22
oiaohm	Gcc was designed with the foolish idea that linker had to provide link time optimisation and thread optimisation.	Mar 14 23:22
schestowitz	oiaohm: it gets support from big companies	Mar 14 23:22
seller_liar	oiaohm: but remember , gcc is portable ,have a lot of languges	Mar 14 23:22
oiaohm	Same with portland group seller_liar	Mar 14 23:22
schestowitz	You can’t just treat it like a hobby project	Mar 14 23:22
schestowitz	Though I’d love to see benchmark	Mar 14 23:23
schestowitz	Compiler benchmarks (not Windows)	Mar 14 23:23
seller_liar	how many years old the portland software have?	Mar 14 23:23
oiaohm	icc and portland use a releated C and C++ frount end.	Mar 14 23:23
oiaohm	This year portland group is 25 seller_liar	Mar 14 23:23
oiaohm	Yes many hours of work have gone into there optimizer.	Mar 14 23:24
seller_liar	can you give me a link	Mar 14 23:24
oiaohm	http://www.pgroup.com/ They are already working on auto off loading to gpu.	Mar 14 23:25
oiaohm	Portland group is what gcc has to catch.	Mar 14 23:26
seller_liar	oiaohm: is proprietary	Mar 14 23:27
seller_liar	gcc have less resources and people researching	Mar 14 23:27
seller_liar	I think the real problem is lack of dependant code	Mar 14 23:29
seller_liar	we must more specific code	Mar 14 23:29
balzac	that’s why GNU & the FSF need to shake down the fat cats	Mar 14 23:29
seller_liar	use liboil a bit more and spend more time wrintiing repetitive but specific code	Mar 14 23:29
balzac	an unprecedented fundraiser	Mar 14 23:29
seller_liar	people focus a lot in portability	Mar 14 23:29
seller_liar	but people forget code optimization	Mar 14 23:30
oiaohm	Do I really care about proprietary when I need performance.	Mar 14 23:30
seller_liar	oiaohm: but , portland have more money and researching	Mar 14 23:30
seller_liar	oiaohm: gcc 4.4 will be better	Mar 14 23:31
oiaohm	Portland group also did not stuff up there design from the get go.	Mar 14 23:31
oiaohm	When gcc gets its core defects out we may see some true performance it of it.	Mar 14 23:31
oiaohm	Then people will wake up how badly msvc suxs in optimiser.	Mar 14 23:32
seller_liar	oiaohm: I don know….	Mar 14 23:32
oiaohm	Lack of link time optimiser is a key defect.	Mar 14 23:32
seller_liar	oiaohm: But the better thing which we have do is to write more specific code	Mar 14 23:32
balzac	pgroup: are they M$-affiliated?	Mar 14 23:32
schestowitz	oiaohm: you are a ‘pragmatist’ right?	Mar 14 23:32
oiaohm	pgroup is cross platform balzac.	Mar 14 23:33
schestowitz	What you don’t world is compiler ‘lockin’	Mar 14 23:33
schestowitz	A world of a monopoly where one company controls how programs are built	Mar 14 23:33
oiaohm	pgroup does not lock you in. There compliers are pure standard.	Mar 14 23:33
schestowitz	gcc decentralises	Mar 14 23:33
balzac	what license is their compiler published under?	Mar 14 23:33
oiaohm	proprietary balzac	Mar 14 23:34
schestowitz	HowYaFeelPUNK Public icence	Mar 14 23:34
oiaohm	gcc has not passed C99 either yet.	Mar 14 23:34
balzac	hopefully someone inside will release their code as happened to valve, so everyone can benefit	Mar 14 23:34
seller_liar	oiaohm: maybe fsf need more resources	Mar 14 23:34
balzac	c99 is probably influenced by money	Mar 14 23:35
schestowitz	Doesn’t Intel invest in this too?	Mar 14 23:35
oiaohm	Nop balzac	Mar 14 23:35
schestowitz	They try to make gcc work better with processors	Mar 14 23:35
oiaohm	C99 was design to get around issues of C	Mar 14 23:35
schestowitz	The h/w makers of sorts….	Mar 14 23:35
oiaohm	More focus of resources seller_liar	Mar 14 23:35
balzac	hardware compatibility is a battle-ground in which proprietary, open source, and free software struggle for market-share.	Mar 14 23:36
oiaohm	Lot of optmiser work is going into edge optmisations that are not going to give much.	Mar 14 23:36
seller_liar	oiaohm: yes,Have you tried to contact gcc devs?	Mar 14 23:36
oiaohm	with gcc	Mar 14 23:36
balzac	if there are any good tricks which can be taken from pgroup by reverse-engineering, that’s nice	Mar 14 23:37
oiaohm	http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/Link… Link time optimisation is being very hard to add to gcc.	Mar 14 23:38
balzac	but I’m neither excited nor worried about compatibility with the latest hardware	Mar 14 23:38
oiaohm	Reason programmers hacked around the core engine of gcc to make stuff work.	Mar 14 23:38
balzac	gamers can worry about this, video and rich-media people can worry about this.	Mar 14 23:38
oiaohm	Gcc is basically having a massive internal cleam up so Link Time Optimisation can work.	Mar 14 23:39
oiaohm	The internal mess also caused gcc to be slower than it should have been and eat more ram that is should have.	Mar 14 23:39
balzac	oh well… it’s good enough for a lot of things	Mar 14 23:39
balzac	it will continue to improve	Mar 14 23:40
oiaohm	Basically people have been optmising the out put of gcc and forgetting to clean up gcc it self.	Mar 14 23:40
oiaohm	Some focus is on fixing up gcc itself.	Mar 14 23:40
balzac	every so often, a project needs its core re-factored	Mar 14 23:40
oiaohm	Gcc case would not have been needed if people did not just code in a bypass to the main struct.	Mar 14 23:41
oiaohm	The bypass also limited what gcc optmisation engines could do.	Mar 14 23:41
oiaohm	Core design of gcc basically kicks itself hard.	Mar 14 23:41
balzac	I’m looking forward to the longsoon processors	Mar 14 23:42
balzac	and arm processors	Mar 14 23:42
seller_liar	oiaohm: We can use more specific code as temporaty solution	Mar 14 23:42
balzac	eating into the market-share of those hardware manufacturers who’ve been enabling proprietary software monopoly	Mar 14 23:42
seller_liar	oiaohm: specific code is the better solution for more speed	Mar 14 23:42
schestowitz	> balzac> every so often, a project needs its core re-factored	Mar 14 23:43
schestowitz	KDE3, GNOME3, OOo tokeniser..	Mar 14 23:43
schestowitz	OOo antialiasing (almost half a million lines of code changed)..	Mar 14 23:43
seller_liar	liboil for exampple create a lot of simple algos for each type of archictecture	Mar 14 23:43
Balrog_	seller_liar: not a good idea	Mar 14 23:43
seller_liar	why?	Mar 14 23:43
Balrog_	(fine in a compiler; not in your software)	Mar 14 23:43
schestowitz	Yes	Mar 14 23:44
Balrog_	look at early Mac OS	Mar 14 23:44
schestowitz	But that’s not the point	Mar 14 23:44
schestowitz	algos are also ASMs	Mar 14 23:44
Balrog_	was almost 100% M68K ASM	Mar 14 23:44
schestowitz	So I think he meant something else	Mar 14 23:44
Balrog_	hand-coded	Mar 14 23:44
seller_liar	for example we can create code for x86 , x8664 and arm	Mar 14 23:44
schestowitz	In HL P/L ?????	Mar 14 23:44
seller_liar	we can create 3 or 4 instances of same code	Mar 14 23:44
schestowitz	bad idea	Mar 14 23:44
seller_liar	why?	Mar 14 23:44
balzac	IF YOU OTHERWISE TRANSFER POSSESSION OF ANY COPY,	Mar 14 23:45
balzac	MODIFICATION OR MERGED PORTION OF THE PROGRAM TO ANOTHER	Mar 14 23:45
balzac	PARTY, YOUR LICENSE IS AUTOMATICALLY TERMINATED.	Mar 14 23:45
Balrog_	bad for maintenance	Mar 14 23:45
oiaohm	Classic case was found in reactos when complier works custom code for a solution can workout way slower than letting the complier do it.	Mar 14 23:45
balzac	nice use of all caps in the portland groups EULA	Mar 14 23:45
Balrog_	fix one version, woun’t fix other	Mar 14 23:45
Balrog_	s/u/	Mar 14 23:45
seller_liar	We repeat only 10% of software	Mar 14 23:45
Balrog_	you have three branches to maintain, rather than one	Mar 14 23:45
Balrog_	and if it’s time-critical code?	Mar 14 23:46
seller_liar	for example , we optimize only the most used parts of software	Mar 14 23:46
seller_liar	we don t optimize everything	Mar 14 23:46
oiaohm	Means to get more speed by doing blocks of asm when it could be done in C or some other lang is a clear sign of a complier optimiser problem.	Mar 14 23:46
seller_liar	only 10% odf software	Mar 14 23:46
balzac	Notwithstanding the above language, You acknowledge that as part of the	Mar 14 23:47
balzac	Software you may receive Run-Time Libraries in the form of Microsoft Foundation	Mar 14 23:47
balzac	Classes (MFCs), Active Template Libraries (ATLs), and/or “C” Runtime files (CRTs)	Mar 14 23:47
balzac	in binary form only (“Microsoft Distributable Code”). You acknowledge that you	Mar 14 23:47
balzac	have the right to that Microsoft Distributable Code to design, develop or test for use	Mar 14 23:47
balzac	with the Software only.	Mar 14 23:47
balzac	portland group is distributing M$ code	Mar 14 23:47
Balrog_	once you’re stuck with specific-to-platform code, it’s terribly hard to port	Mar 14 23:47
oiaohm	You can get a licence for that stuff balzac	Mar 14 23:47
oiaohm	From mainsoft that happens to make cross platform versions.	Mar 14 23:48
balzac	I would not touch it with a ten-foot pole	Mar 14 23:48
schestowitz	I dn’t trust mainsoft	Mar 14 23:48
schestowitz	Mono chums	Mar 14 23:48
balzac	I think the only value it could possibly have is to be reverse-engineered a bit for possible new approaches to be used in GCC	Mar 14 23:49
schestowitz	.NET and stuff… marrying Microsoft with… stuff	Mar 14 23:49
oiaohm	Really nothing porland group does is that special balzac	Mar 14 23:49
balzac	but reverse-engineering can be a waste of time too.	Mar 14 23:49
oiaohm	Its a simple core design things right.	Mar 14 23:49
balzac	oiaohm: I believe you.	Mar 14 23:49
Balrog_	oiaohm: so what do you think about LLVM and Clang?	Mar 14 23:50
balzac	The all-caps portions of the license remind me of an American tourist in a foreign country, talking loud and slow to people.	Mar 14 23:50
oiaohm	llvm is along the right path. Clang also along the right path.	Mar 14 23:50
Balrog_	all-caps are harder to read	Mar 14 23:50
Balrog_	the license is BSDtype though	Mar 14 23:51
oiaohm	llvm and clang have fairly clean designs for what they do.	Mar 14 23:51
Balrog_	s/Dt/D t	Mar 14 23:51
oiaohm	People forget BSD have there own complier not gcc for the simple reason how much memory and researchs gcc eats up building stuff.	Mar 14 23:51
schestowitz	Breaking/Flashing: T-Mobile G1 Fire Sale: Handsets Under $80 < http://jkontherun.com/2009/03/13/t-m… >	Mar 14 23:52
oiaohm	gcc is the most bloated complier in existance due to its design flaws.	Mar 14 23:52
Balrog_	what compiler does BSD use?	Mar 14 23:52
Balrog_	(Apple uses GCC, but is contributing heavily to LLVM / Clang, by the way)	Mar 14 23:52
benJIman	You can get them for free on Tmobile here	Mar 14 23:52
Balrog_	benJIman: where?	Mar 14 23:53
benJIman	Tmobile shop.	Mar 14 23:53
benJIman	It’s only on the £30 a month tariff.	Mar 14 23:53
schestowitz	‘Free’	Mar 14 23:53
Balrog_	country?	Mar 14 23:53
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schestowitz	Like free puppy	Mar 14 23:53
Balrog_	it’s not free	Mar 14 23:53
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Balrog_	rather subsidized	Mar 14 23:53
schestowitz	Get your hands washed… lots of poop and dog food coming	Mar 14 23:54
schestowitz	Sub-notebooks adopt similar methods	Mar 14 23:54
schestowitz	iPhone too	Mar 14 23:54
benJIman	N97 out soon. I doubt I’ll upgrade my n800 yet though.	Mar 14 23:54
schestowitz	It ain’t $400	Mar 14 23:54
Balrog_	iphone is like $500-$700 without a contract	Mar 14 23:54
schestowitz	with bars	Mar 14 23:55
benJIman	Still? The hardware is not worth that any more, it was whewn it was first released.	Mar 14 23:55
oiaohm	bsd complier Balrog that very had to find. Its used basically to audit source code before wasted the time passing programs through gcc.	Mar 14 23:55
Balrog_	hard..???	Mar 14 23:55
benJIman	http://www.youtube.com/wa…	Mar 14 23:55
Balrog_	oh, the BSD compiler	Mar 14 23:55
Balrog_	not what FreeBSD and NetBSD use…	Mar 14 23:55
Balrog_	and OpenBSD	Mar 14 23:55
oiaohm	OpenBSD and NetBSD use it for time saving.	Mar 14 23:56
Balrog_	you mean like Sun’s compiler, which produces much slower code than GCC?	Mar 14 23:56
_Hicham_	oiaohm : gcc 4 is rather good	Mar 14 23:56
schestowitz	benJIman: nice, but Pre is coming too	Mar 14 23:56
oiaohm	_Hicham_: you are talking about a person who has been in the internals og gcc.	Mar 14 23:57
oiaohm	og/of	Mar 14 23:57
_Hicham_	why didn’t u contribute to it ?	Mar 14 23:57
_Hicham_	gcc is open	Mar 14 23:57
oiaohm	That why I went through the source code in the first place _Hicham_	Mar 14 23:58
oiaohm	Both binutils and gcc have had code added against there base design.	Mar 14 23:59
_Hicham_	well, u can even propose a complete design change	Mar 14 23:59
oiaohm	binutils cannot support all platforms from one any anymore.	Mar 14 23:59
_Hicham_	but propose also a migration scheme	Mar 14 23:59
oiaohm	Due to cpu/platform dependant alterations being done in the wrong places.	Mar 14 23:59