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03.15.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 14th, 2009 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 4:06 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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_Hicham_ he was president due to his genealogy Mar 14 21:16
schestowitz In a world where a country is powerful enough, the laws is aughed upon Mar 14 21:16
balzac Don’t ask me why he subverted our military and our constitution. Mar 14 21:16
schestowitz Reminds me of MS in IT.. Mar 14 21:16
_Hicham_ he even participated to 9/11 Mar 14 21:16
balzac Bush’s every action were those of a man who hated America with a fiery passion. Mar 14 21:16
schestowitz Law is just a recommendation, not a boundry Mar 14 21:16
schestowitz Microsoft bribed? OOPS. Mar 14 21:16
schestowitz Sorry about that… Mar 14 21:16
schestowitz That would be bad publicity Mar 14 21:16
schestowitz But never will you see Steve and Bill brought to trial. Mar 14 21:17
schestowitz In the US, rich people can’t go to jail Mar 14 21:17
schestowitz There’s the notion ogf bail or settlement Mar 14 21:17
_Hicham_ in all the world Mar 14 21:17
schestowitz Which means th nation would accept a bribe to let the people go Mar 14 21:17
trmanco Digg messed up the recomendation engine Mar 14 21:17
_Hicham_ except scandinavian countries Mar 14 21:17
schestowitz _Hicham_: no genealogy, he stole the election Mar 14 21:17
schestowitz Bush never really won the 200 election Mar 14 21:18
schestowitz It was a fraud Mar 14 21:18
trmanco I have 1 frontpage article in the upcoming/recommended page Mar 14 21:18
schestowitz *2000 Mar 14 21:18
trmanco wtf Mar 14 21:18
schestowitz trmanco: Digg is broken Mar 14 21:18
*trmanco thinks on making his own social site Mar 14 21:18
schestowitz And it’s gamed heavily so I don’t even bother reading it. It declines overalll. Mar 14 21:18
schestowitz They maybe should have sold, but I’m glad they didn’t Mar 14 21:19
trmanco I have a screen, if you want proof Mar 14 21:19
schestowitz OK, put in ohotobucket Mar 14 21:19
schestowitz *poto Mar 14 21:19
schestowitz *photo Mar 14 21:19
Balrog__ heh Mar 14 21:19
_Hicham_ balzac : did u setup ur desktop well? Mar 14 21:20
schestowitz balzac: new one: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics… (Secret emails show Iraq dossier was ‘sexed up’) Mar 14 21:21
seller_liar schestowitz: No roy, In Brazil it’s not known Mar 14 21:21
schestowitz seller_liar: still a newcomer Mar 14 21:21
schestowitz What’s amazing is that almost 8 years later they manage to find more evidence of corruption from high up at the top — stuff that couldn’t be found for so many years Mar 14 21:22
trmanco schestowitz, will Tinypic do? It belong to Photobcucket Mar 14 21:22
schestowitz trmanco: sure Mar 14 21:22
trmanco belongs Mar 14 21:22
balzac Roy, remember the guy who originally introduced the phrase “sexed up” in the context of the Iraq war sales pitch? Mar 14 21:22
trmanco maybe I should host it too, for future reference Mar 14 21:22
balzac Found dead, full of sleeping pills, wrists slit. Mar 14 21:22
balzac Consider him a murder victim of the Bush/Blair crime syndicate. Mar 14 21:23
balzac Tony Blair – Bush’s man-servant Mar 14 21:23
trmanco schestowitz, http://i44.tinypic.com/j7qfjn.jpg Mar 14 21:23
trmanco the one with 322 diggs is on the frontpage Mar 14 21:24
schestowitz Corporate legal scrambles to withdraw inflated Palm Pre claims < http://www.roughlydrafted.com/200… > Mar 14 21:24
schestowitz balzac: I seee… Mar 14 21:24
schestowitz David Kelly, right? Mar 14 21:24
schestowitz we discussed this in IRC last year Mar 14 21:24
balzac Tony Blair should only get 10 years in prison as part of a plea-bargain deal. He has to deliver the goods to jail Bush for life. Mar 14 21:24
balzac yep Mar 14 21:24
schestowitz Mysterious death that seems like elimination as much as a suicide Mar 14 21:25
balzac he was just about to testify, and he was angry, not depressed. Mar 14 21:25
balzac and he was afraid for his life. Mar 14 21:25
balzac lots of people died like that during Bush’s reign Mar 14 21:26
schestowitz trmanco: is it s bug? Mar 14 21:26
schestowitz Or was it denied entry? Mar 14 21:26
trmanco IMO, it’s a bug Mar 14 21:26
balzac I think he was a victim of the executive assassination ring Sy Hersch mentioned recently Mar 14 21:26
trmanco first time this happened to me Mar 14 21:26
balzac ok, time for me to get some work done Mar 14 21:26
schestowitz Digg is so bizarre. But if I submit and let it just do its thing I can make FP after 70 diggs. Those who cheat need much more… over 1000 Mar 14 21:27
schestowitz *!00 Mar 14 21:27
tacone schestowitz: will you ever accept my friendship on digg ? :P Mar 14 21:27
schestowitz tacone: does it need confirmation? Mar 14 21:27
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schestowitz I’m already maxed up on number of friends added (1001) Mar 14 21:27
tacone oh Mar 14 21:27
tacone leave it alone then. Mar 14 21:28
tacone i am already your ‘fan’ on digg. that’s sufficent Mar 14 21:28
balzac enjoy these photos of Bora Bora Mar 14 21:28
balzac http://www.latimes.com/tra… Mar 14 21:28
schestowitz A lot of ‘friends’ are bots Mar 14 21:28
schestowitz Silly spammer create them and then mass-add Mar 14 21:28
tacone so what ? i am a bot myself. Mar 14 21:28
schestowitz Some sort of network harvesting or something Mar 14 21:28
tacone balzac: any higher resolution version ? Mar 14 21:29
schestowitz balzac: 6th pic is soothing, then I saw the 7th (shark) Mar 14 21:29
schestowitz balzac: does Bora Bora suffer from a credit /crunch/? :-) Mar 14 21:30
balzac I know nothing about bora bora, but I’m working for a travel agency, so I found those pics in the course of a day at work. Mar 14 21:31
balzac tacone: wysiwyg Mar 14 21:31
tacone sigh Mar 14 21:32
schestowitz balzac: dreams have limitations: http://www.panoramio.com/ph… Mar 14 21:33
Balrog__ :/ Mar 14 21:34
schestowitz Stormy weather… never like in  the catalogs… also Google Maps there. Mar 14 21:34
Balrog__ if only everyone would use unicode…. Mar 14 21:34
schestowitz Too many bits Mar 14 21:34
*Balrog__ is now known as Balrog_ Mar 14 21:34
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_Hicham_ Balrog : if microsoft go down, everyone will use unicode Mar 14 21:36
schestowitz http://en.wikipedia.org/w… Mar 14 21:36
_Hicham_ sexy bora bora during storm Mar 14 21:38
schestowitz “A series of devastating events killed or removed almost the entire population of Easter Island in the 1860s. In December 1862, Peruvian slave raiders struck Easter Island. Violent abductions continued for several months, eventually capturing or killing around 1500 men and women, about half of the island’s population” Mar 14 21:38
Balrog_ in this case, the person I got files from used Pagemaker (obsolete); does not want to buy InDesign or re-learn stuff. Mar 14 21:40
_Hicham_ Balrog : he should use LaTeX Mar 14 21:43
_Hicham_ :D Mar 14 21:43
Balrog_ don’t you get “or re-learn stuff”? Mar 14 21:45
Balrog_ WYSIWYG Mar 14 21:45
_Hicham_ WYSIWYG is not always good Mar 14 21:46
_Hicham_ and u know that Mar 14 21:46
Balrog_ well, it does help Mar 14 21:46
Balrog_ not everyone is a geek. Mar 14 21:47
_Hicham_ Maybe OpenOffice.org then Mar 14 21:47
Balrog_ that could work Mar 14 21:47
Balrog_ there’s an app called scribus designed for that though Mar 14 21:48
Balrog_ FOSS Mar 14 21:48
MinceR 225430 < Balrog_> not everyone is a geek. Mar 14 21:49
MinceR not everyone has access to mind-reading computers either :> Mar 14 21:49
Balrog_ I’m not talking about myself Mar 14 21:49
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Balrog_ computers should give users options Mar 14 21:50
Balrog_ if users want to do it by hand, let them Mar 14 21:50
Balrog_ if users want WYSIWYG, let them Mar 14 21:50
_Hicham_ scribus looks great Mar 14 21:52
schestowitz It is great Mar 14 21:52
schestowitz a friend of mine who works in a publishing house says that she and other there use it Mar 14 21:52
schestowitz They dump the Microsoft software and other stuff like Adobe. They use Linux  too. Mar 14 21:53
_Hicham_ Great, a publishing house with Linux Mar 14 21:54
_Hicham_ ! Mar 14 21:54
schestowitz There are many that use latex or lyx. knuth uses ubuntu Mar 14 22:01
Balrog_ schestowitz: many people still use wordperfect Mar 14 22:03
trmanco http://www.youtube.com/wat… Mar 14 22:03
Balrog_ simply because it’s both wysiwyg and has ‘codes’ Mar 14 22:03
trmanco Windows is a problem to Windows Mar 14 22:03
Balrog_ s/some/many Mar 14 22:04
_Hicham_ Knuth uses Ubuntu? Mar 14 22:04
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_Hicham_ Shuttleworth must be flattered Mar 14 22:05
_Hicham_ they must to the study cases Mar 14 22:05
_Hicham_ who uses drupal in here? Mar 14 22:05
_Hicham_ no one Mar 14 22:06
_Hicham_ ? Mar 14 22:06
schestowitz OSS illusion: http://www.informationweek.com/new… Mar 14 22:06
schestowitz “The Idou is the first smartphone to officially announce it will run the open source Symbian operating system, which is expected to be completed next year. Nokia shocked many last year when it purchased the remaining shares of Symbian and said it would turn it into a royalty-free, open source operating system for smartphones. “ Mar 14 22:07
schestowitz Symbian/Nokia just tries to blur gaps. Mar 14 22:07
schestowitz _Hicham_: but not GNOME Mar 14 22:07
schestowitz trmanco: I get a headache just watching it Mar 14 22:09
trmanco lol Mar 14 22:09
_Hicham_ Roy : what has gnome to do with that? Mar 14 22:09
schestowitz _Hicham_: http://www.reddit.com/comments/6h5fh/k… Mar 14 22:09
schestowitz trmanco: Windows crash log. imagine if cars had that….. Mar 14 22:10
trmanco schestowitz, cars would not existe then Mar 14 22:11
trmanco exist* Mar 14 22:11
tacone horses ? Mar 14 22:11
_Hicham_ a crash log for cars? Mar 14 22:12
_Hicham_ no one uses drupal in here? Mar 14 22:14
_Hicham_ no one? Mar 14 22:15
_Hicham_ roy uses wordpress? Mar 14 22:15
schestowitz trmanco: point is… Mar 14 22:15
_Hicham_ what do u use Balrog? Mar 14 22:15
schestowitz Microsoft should go ahead to prevent crashed Mar 14 22:15
schestowitz *crashes Mar 14 22:15
schestowitz Not just report them Mar 14 22:15
schestowitz Diagnostics = symptoms, not cure Mar 14 22:15
trmanco they won’t Mar 14 22:16
trmanco they prefer advertising, lipstick Mar 14 22:16
schestowitz In Linux it’s kernel “oops” Mar 14 22:16
schestowitz KDE crashes are very, very rare Mar 14 22:16
schestowitz COmmon in 4.0 I hear Mar 14 22:16
_Hicham_ gnome crashed only two times for me Mar 14 22:17
_Hicham_ one time because of java Mar 14 22:17
schestowitz I wonder if people are born sensitive to advertising Mar 14 22:17
_Hicham_ and the second time because of matlab Mar 14 22:17
schestowitz Or maybe it’s something that arrives through indoctrination (education) Mar 14 22:17
_Hicham_ Roy : you are an advertiser too Mar 14 22:18
schestowitz There’s the theory about subconscious penetrating judgment Mar 14 22:18
schestowitz _Hicham_: you could claim this about making any opinion Mar 14 22:18
schestowitz But I’m thinking about “proprganda”/PR Mar 14 22:19
schestowitz When it’s done in an organised fashion to deceive Mar 14 22:19
schestowitz Like sell a war Mar 14 22:19
schestowitz Or sell people a product they need Mar 14 22:19
schestowitz When deceiving people becomes an occupation Mar 14 22:19
_Hicham_ u should learn from they Roy Mar 14 22:20
_Hicham_ if u want to combat ur enemy, u better learn from him Mar 14 22:20
schestowitz Blankenhorn is sort of trolling OSS again. Mar 14 22:22
_Hicham_ and u should have a big beard to combat microsoft Mar 14 22:22
schestowitz Headlines like “Is the new open source Eurolicense eurotrash?” and “PC moment for open source may lack profit “ Mar 14 22:22
schestowitz And MOG (Microsoft shill) is trying to stick together Microsoft and OSS Mar 14 22:23
schestowitz _Hicham_: I don’t advertise Mar 14 22:23
schestowitz I expose their startegy Mar 14 22:23
schestowitz Things like shill agencies, dumping, bribes, etc. Zuck, CompTIA etc… teaching how brutally corrupt the system is Mar 14 22:24
schestowitz You don’t fight the pig by wrestling with it in the mud. You both get dirty this way… Mar 14 22:24
Balrog_ _Hicham_: I use what is available at the moment Mar 14 22:25
_Hicham_ so no one in here is using drupal:-( Mar 14 22:26
balzac _Hicham_: Mar 14 22:26
balzac I use Drupal Mar 14 22:26
Balrog_ drupal for…? Mar 14 22:26
balzac websites Mar 14 22:27
balzac what else is it good for? Mar 14 22:27
schestowitz The banner and blog looks much better now: Negative Approach is now Software, Interrupted < http://news.cnet.com/8301-1384… > Mar 14 22:27
tacone drupal makes also good coffee Mar 14 22:27
schestowitz Dripp drip.. Mar 14 22:27
benJIman schestowitz: “Novell have released” is a bit inaccurate when the work isn’t done by a novell employee and it’s not released by novell Mar 14 22:29
_Hicham_ balzac : do u use the xmlsitemap module? Mar 14 22:29
balzac not yet. Don’t you need a special php extension for that? Mar 14 22:29
balzac xdebug to enable back-tracing for the purpose of mapping? Mar 14 22:29
_Hicham_ what php extension? Mar 14 22:30
balzac xdebug Mar 14 22:30
_Hicham_ nothing is mentioned in the doc Mar 14 22:30
balzac lemme see Mar 14 22:30
_Hicham_ ok Mar 14 22:30
schestowitz benJIman: I know Mar 14 22:31
schestowitz It’s accurate Mar 14 22:31
schestowitz Novell is people Mar 14 22:31
schestowitz beineri is Novell Mar 14 22:31
schestowitz I forgot his full name now… Mar 14 22:31
benJIman schestowitz: http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3902 Mar 14 22:32
balzac http://drupal.org/project/site_map Mar 14 22:32
balzac that’s a different module, _Hicham_ Mar 14 22:32
schestowitz Balrog: to hell with Novell (it rhymes) Mar 14 22:33
schestowitz He’s one of their better people Mar 14 22:33
Balrog_ heh Mar 14 22:33
schestowitz Don’rworry Mar 14 22:33
schestowitz His wage is not gone Mar 14 22:33
balzac http://drupal.org/project/vis… <– this is the one I was thinking of, _Hicham_ Mar 14 22:34
schestowitz Hovo Sapient can build a new sauna at homne Mar 14 22:34
balzac xml site map doesn’t have a version for Drupal 6 yet Mar 14 22:34
schestowitz $8 million in bonuses for one year can buy loads Mar 14 22:34
_Hicham_ xmlsitemap is for submitting sitemap to search engines Mar 14 22:34
_Hicham_ yes Mar 14 22:34
_Hicham_ that is my problem balzac Mar 14 22:34
_Hicham_ the dev version doesnt work Mar 14 22:34
balzac Hovo Sapient sounds like an evil scientist Mar 14 22:34
balzac who is trying to evolve himself to the next level of evolution to attain supremecy over everyone else Mar 14 22:35
balzac Hovo Sapient, the mad, megalo-maniacal doctor who is his own greatest experiment Mar 14 22:35
schestowitz “Just out of curiosity, why did Novell fire so many OpenSuSE developers? AFAIK, you were a good employee and a talented developer (unless N is planning to drop KDE >:(. (no, I don’t want to start a conspiracy theory.))” Mar 14 22:36
schestowitz Balrog: he works with Uncle Fester Mar 14 22:36
schestowitz balzac: Mar 14 22:36
balzac Roy, he already extracted their DNA with syringes and their egos through special cranial-caps, so they’re useless to him now. Mar 14 22:37
schestowitz “I´m getting worry about the future openSUSE project.” Mar 14 22:37
schestowitz Balrog: well, good luck to him Mar 14 22:37
balzac He has absorbed their vital essences to increase his vitality Mar 14 22:37
schestowitz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6rqXHX3O48 Mar 14 22:38
balzac Why was Steve Ballmer sweating and screaming “Developers, developers, developers!” Mar 14 22:38
balzac Because Steve Ballmer also extracts their vitality to make a special cognition-enhancing breakfast shake Mar 14 22:38
balzac He has their brains liquified and sucked out through their ear canal Mar 14 22:39
balzac At Microsoft, the executives can pull out any developer’s heart-plug at any moment Mar 14 22:39
balzac man, I should be the creative director for a game Mar 14 22:40
schestowitz 3d? Mar 14 22:40
schestowitz gnu+gurlz? Mar 14 22:40
schestowitz How’s dat comin’ along. You us ya model !11 Mar 14 22:41
balzac Roy, that was a good mash-up Mar 14 22:42
balzac Roy, the game would be about Imperial Microsoft of the future and the free software rebels who resist them. Mar 14 22:43
balzac Hovo Sapient, Ballmer, devourer of developers, MS authoritarianism in a macabe science fiction future Mar 14 22:44
balzac the sound track would feature a lot of industrial drum & bass Mar 14 22:44
balzac The proprietary software developers would not understand that they were being cognitively castrated by their overlords, their egos consumed by the executive class. Mar 14 22:45
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balzac meanwhile, the free software guys are the most dangerous enemy of the empire because we still have full virility and the power to please the trophy wives of the overlords Mar 14 22:46
balzac so the free software rebels are feared and reviled Mar 14 22:46
balzac Roy, I’m glad this channel is logged because I’m on a roll here Mar 14 22:46
balzac ok, back to work… Mar 14 22:48
Balrog_ what do you guys think of non-foss freeware from independent developers? Mar 14 22:52
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schestowitz balzac: hehe, thanks. Mar 14 22:55
schestowitz Balrog: mostly harmless from my POV Mar 14 22:55
schestowitz Freeware lags behind FOSS most of the time Mar 14 22:56
Balrog_ what about low-cost stuff…like <= $40 Mar 14 22:56
Balrog_ yes, in many cases Mar 14 22:56
schestowitz It’s also at risk of being abandonware Mar 14 22:56
Balrog_ there are some cases where foss still needs work. Mar 14 22:56
Balrog_ Yes, I’ve seen that :( Mar 14 22:56
schestowitz Needs work =opportunity Mar 14 22:56
schestowitz Like compiler which was a gap to  be filled (GCC) Mar 14 22:57
Balrog_ what do you think of LLVM and clang? Mar 14 22:57
schestowitz I don’t use LLVM Mar 14 22:57
Balrog_ it’s MIT-licensed Mar 14 22:57
Balrog_ and may possibly replace GCC  :O Mar 14 22:58
seller_liar it ‘s not good Mar 14 22:58
Balrog_ seller_liar: elaborate Mar 14 22:58
seller_liar gcc is gplv3 , is a very important part of gnu linux system Mar 14 22:59
Balrog_ yes. Mar 14 22:59
seller_liar the gnu linux system cannot be infected with mit licenses Mar 14 22:59
Balrog_ llvm license: http://llvm.org/releases/2.5… Mar 14 22:59
seller_liar gnu linux is free Mar 14 22:59
Balrog_ MIT license is like BSD license Mar 14 22:59
seller_liar not permissive Mar 14 22:59
Balrog_ no copyleft Mar 14 23:00
Balrog_ but otherwise fully FOSS Mar 14 23:00
seller_liar The gnu linux must maitain gcc ,because of license nature Mar 14 23:00
trmanco http://gandolf.homelinux.org/blo… Mar 14 23:00
trmanco hehe Mar 14 23:00
Balrog_ (mit license is the correct name for X11 license) Mar 14 23:00
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balzac I don’t see open source licenses replacing free software licenses where it really matters Mar 14 23:00
seller_liar Mit ,bsd and other permissive licenses permits proprietary software Mar 14 23:01
Balrog_ yes. Mar 14 23:01
balzac copyleft licenses keep a strong software community, acting as the social contract Mar 14 23:01
Balrog_ it can be forked though … right? Mar 14 23:01
Balrog_ or even incorporated into gcc….. Mar 14 23:01
seller_liar Yes Mar 14 23:01
Balrog_ or am I wrong…? Mar 14 23:01
seller_liar Some licenses permits , others not Mar 14 23:01
Balrog_ well, clang is already useful for finding memory leaks :) Mar 14 23:02
balzac The GNU project and the FSF need to shake down the fat cats Mar 14 23:02
seller_liar This is a crazy project Mar 14 23:02
oiaohm Forking licence like GPL might permit it but name of program can be trademarked Mar 14 23:02
Balrog_ llvm is an acronym Mar 14 23:02
seller_liar clang takes 3 or more years to complete Mar 14 23:02
Balrog_ ‘low level virtual machine’ Mar 14 23:02
seller_liar I  don t like to repeat the same work Mar 14 23:02
seller_liar We already have a good c compiler Mar 14 23:03
seller_liar why another? Mar 14 23:03
Balrog_ I understand that LLVM/Clang aren’t just a c compiler Mar 14 23:03
oiaohm What do you mean good? Mar 14 23:03
seller_liar gcc is good Mar 14 23:03
oiaohm Gcc still needs masive work so it works. Mar 14 23:03
Balrog_ http://llvm.org/ Mar 14 23:03
seller_liar LLVM is good , but clang is another repetitive task Mar 14 23:03
oiaohm Lack of link time optimisation Mar 14 23:03
oiaohm Histrotic hacked up structs. Mar 14 23:03
Balrog_ clang is a frontend for LLVM Mar 14 23:03
seller_liar We must focus in desktop area , not in development area Mar 14 23:03
Balrog_ (c language) Mar 14 23:03
oiaohm Do you want Linux to run with performance seller_liar Mar 14 23:04
seller_liar linux is very good using gcc Mar 14 23:04
seller_liar My machine is very powerful too Mar 14 23:04
oiaohm Current Linux is limping speed compared to what it can be with portland group complier building same source code. Mar 14 23:04
seller_liar Not all optimization is dependant of compiler Mar 14 23:05
seller_liar for more speed , we need to create more dependant code Mar 14 23:05
oiaohm Lack of linktime optimistation in current gcc cripples lot of programs. Mar 14 23:05
seller_liar like liboil Mar 14 23:05
oiaohm Lack of means to turn single threaded applications into multithreaded to take advantage of multi cores is another. Mar 14 23:05
seller_liar I don t like  C Mar 14 23:05
Balrog_ seller_liar: Linux *is* C/C++ Mar 14 23:06
seller_liar I like java ,eiffel , sather and lisaac Mar 14 23:06
seller_liar I know Mar 14 23:06
oiaohm Portland group complier has both. Mar 14 23:06
oiaohm llvm was also designed to find secuirty flaws in programs. Mar 14 23:06
seller_liar eiffel is amazing language Mar 14 23:06
seller_liar I know , llvm is good Mar 14 23:06
seller_liar but clang is another monotone task Mar 14 23:07
oiaohm Its bit like gold linker vs ld. Mar 14 23:07
seller_liar 3 or 5 years to complete Mar 14 23:07
seller_liar http://liboil.freedesktop.org/wiki/ Mar 14 23:07
seller_liar we need invest time in another more powerful languges Mar 14 23:07
seller_liar for example Mar 14 23:07
seller_liar Sather Mar 14 23:07
seller_liar http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/~s… Mar 14 23:08
oiaohm use portland group complier some time seller_liar Mar 14 23:08
seller_liar lisaac ( the real alternative to c) Mar 14 23:08
seller_liar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisaac Mar 14 23:08
oiaohm optimiser of portland group is magical. Mar 14 23:08
seller_liar I don like c because is very old and easy to fail Mar 14 23:09
oiaohm Again depends on the complier seller_liar Mar 14 23:09
seller_liar no , Mar 14 23:09
oiaohm It does seller_liar Mar 14 23:09
seller_liar c needs a lot of code to do a simple task Mar 14 23:09
seller_liar pointers ,arghhhh Mar 14 23:10
seller_liar very dirty language Mar 14 23:10
seller_liar Java is amazing Mar 14 23:10
seller_liar is clean Mar 14 23:10
oiaohm When developing drivers pointer is useful. Mar 14 23:11
seller_liar have 3rd party support for contracts , aspects and a lot of other languahes Mar 14 23:11
seller_liar I prefer lisaac Mar 14 23:11
seller_liar Lissac is very good to system programming Mar 14 23:11
seller_liar Look this benchmark Mar 14 23:11
seller_liar people use c because of standarlization and portability and legacy Mar 14 23:11
seller_liar http://isaacproject.u-strasbg… Mar 14 23:12
seller_liar Lisaac is a incomplete languge but veeery powerful for system programming Mar 14 23:12
oiaohm lissac is another in the lines http://www.ctalklang.org/ Mar 14 23:12
seller_liar contracts , and OOP Mar 14 23:12
oiaohm Many have been created over the years.  Yet C remains. Mar 14 23:13
seller_liar yes, I know, but c is old Mar 14 23:13
seller_liar People use c because…. Mar 14 23:13
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seller_liar a lot of people uses c! Mar 14 23:13
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oiaohm Lot of people use C because C++ that in theory should have been better in performance is not. Mar 14 23:14
schestowitz Hi, seller_liar Mar 14 23:15
*schestowitz catches up Mar 14 23:15
seller_liar schestowitz: hello roy Mar 14 23:15
seller_liar oiaohm: yes, because of flexibility Mar 14 23:15
seller_liar oiaohm: c is very dirty and and have a lot of hacks Mar 14 23:15
seller_liar oiaohm: but is very simple and very easy to destroy something Mar 14 23:15
oiaohm Supprising hard to destory something with a complier that truly does audit your code. Mar 14 23:16
seller_liar oiaohm: maybe Mar 14 23:16
seller_liar oiaohm: But this is not a good solution Mar 14 23:16
oiaohm C++ and C are both let down by the quality of there compliers. Mar 14 23:17
seller_liar oiaohm: Because of development of compilers Mar 14 23:17
seller_liar oiaohm: but we can create powerful compilers for java too Mar 14 23:17
oiaohm Issue is way better compilers than MSVC and Gcc exist for C and C++. Mar 14 23:17
oiaohm Problem is they are not free. Mar 14 23:18
seller_liar oiaohm: I don t like msvc Mar 14 23:18
oiaohm msvc beats gcc in lots of cases because it has link time optimisation. Mar 14 23:18
oiaohm Link time optimisation equals smaller and faster programs. Mar 14 23:18
seller_liar oiaohm:and probably knows better windows api Mar 14 23:18
seller_liar oiaohm: Like icc Mar 14 23:19
oiaohm icc slow compared to portland group. Mar 14 23:19
seller_liar ICC and msvc is more fast because of knowledge of apis Mar 14 23:19
oiaohm Nop Mar 14 23:19
seller_liar Msvc is windows dependeent Mar 14 23:19
schestowitz yes Mar 14 23:20
seller_liar msvc compiled apps runs better in windows Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz that’s the thing Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz You think win development Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz Like that silly IE benchmark Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz Microsoft spreads the illusion that IE is fast Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz It only shows Windows Mar 14 23:20
seller_liar icc compiler runs slow in some amd chips but runs fast in intel chips Mar 14 23:20
oiaohm Build envorment yes.   You can build MSVC embeded application without windows dependancy. Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz It does the same game with office Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz They build the OS to prod their wares Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz Recall netscape trial Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz Borland too Mar 14 23:20
oiaohm Performance if MSVC on embed is still fast than gcc. Mar 14 23:20
schestowitz I have lots of Comes docs I’ll do later this years about it Mar 14 23:21
schestowitz Criminal activity/dirty tricks Mar 14 23:21
schestowitz So re: MSVC Mar 14 23:21
schestowitz You’re thinking about exe builds Mar 14 23:21
seller_liar oiaohm: This can happen ,but gcc 4.4 is doing a good work in optimization Mar 14 23:21
schestowitz Think cross platform Mar 14 23:21
schestowitz Windows is passe for many things Mar 14 23:21
schestowitz People who are engineers use real systems, not WIndows Mar 14 23:21
oiaohm Gcc is at long last catch up to what should have been done from the start. Mar 14 23:22
oiaohm Gcc was designed with the foolish idea that linker had to provide link time optimisation and thread optimisation. Mar 14 23:22
schestowitz oiaohm: it gets support from big companies Mar 14 23:22
seller_liar oiaohm: but remember , gcc is portable ,have a lot of languges Mar 14 23:22
oiaohm Same with portland group seller_liar Mar 14 23:22
schestowitz You can’t just treat it like a hobby project Mar 14 23:22
schestowitz Though I’d love to see benchmark Mar 14 23:23
schestowitz Compiler benchmarks (not Windows) Mar 14 23:23
seller_liar how many years old the portland software have? Mar 14 23:23
oiaohm icc and portland use a releated C and C++ frount end. Mar 14 23:23
oiaohm This year portland group is 25 seller_liar Mar 14 23:23
oiaohm Yes many hours of work have gone into there optimizer. Mar 14 23:24
seller_liar can you give me a link Mar 14 23:24
oiaohm http://www.pgroup.com/  They are already working on auto off loading to gpu. Mar 14 23:25
oiaohm Portland group is what gcc has to catch. Mar 14 23:26
seller_liar oiaohm: is proprietary Mar 14 23:27
seller_liar gcc have less resources and people researching Mar 14 23:27
seller_liar I think the real problem is lack of dependant code Mar 14 23:29
seller_liar we must more specific code Mar 14 23:29
balzac that’s why GNU & the FSF need to shake down the fat cats Mar 14 23:29
seller_liar use liboil a bit more and spend more time wrintiing repetitive but specific code Mar 14 23:29
balzac an unprecedented fundraiser Mar 14 23:29
seller_liar people focus a lot in portability Mar 14 23:29
seller_liar but people forget code optimization Mar 14 23:30
oiaohm Do I really care about proprietary when I need performance. Mar 14 23:30
seller_liar oiaohm: but , portland have more money and researching Mar 14 23:30
seller_liar oiaohm: gcc 4.4 will be better Mar 14 23:31
oiaohm Portland group also did not stuff up there design from the get go. Mar 14 23:31
oiaohm When gcc gets its core defects out we may see some true performance it of it. Mar 14 23:31
oiaohm Then people will wake up how badly msvc suxs in optimiser. Mar 14 23:32
seller_liar oiaohm: I don know…. Mar 14 23:32
oiaohm Lack of link time optimiser is a key defect. Mar 14 23:32
seller_liar oiaohm: But the better thing which we have do is to write more specific code Mar 14 23:32
balzac pgroup: are they M$-affiliated? Mar 14 23:32
schestowitz oiaohm: you are a ‘pragmatist’ right? Mar 14 23:32
oiaohm pgroup is cross platform balzac. Mar 14 23:33
schestowitz What you don’t world is compiler ‘lockin’ Mar 14 23:33
schestowitz A world of a monopoly where one company controls how programs are built Mar 14 23:33
oiaohm pgroup does not lock you in.  There compliers are pure standard. Mar 14 23:33
schestowitz gcc decentralises Mar 14 23:33
balzac what license is their compiler published under? Mar 14 23:33
oiaohm proprietary balzac Mar 14 23:34
schestowitz HowYaFeelPUNK Public icence Mar 14 23:34
oiaohm gcc has not passed C99 either yet. Mar 14 23:34
balzac hopefully someone inside will release their code as happened to valve, so everyone can benefit Mar 14 23:34
seller_liar oiaohm: maybe fsf need more resources Mar 14 23:34
balzac c99 is probably influenced by money Mar 14 23:35
schestowitz Doesn’t Intel invest in this too? Mar 14 23:35
oiaohm Nop balzac Mar 14 23:35
schestowitz They try to make gcc work better with processors Mar 14 23:35
oiaohm C99 was design to get around issues of C Mar 14 23:35
schestowitz The h/w makers of sorts…. Mar 14 23:35
oiaohm More focus of resources seller_liar Mar 14 23:35
balzac hardware compatibility is a battle-ground in which proprietary, open source, and free software struggle for market-share. Mar 14 23:36
oiaohm Lot of optmiser work is going into edge optmisations that are not going to give much. Mar 14 23:36
seller_liar oiaohm: yes,Have you tried to contact gcc devs? Mar 14 23:36
oiaohm with gcc Mar 14 23:36
balzac if there are any good tricks which can be taken from pgroup by reverse-engineering, that’s nice Mar 14 23:37
oiaohm http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/Link…  Link time optimisation is being very hard to add to gcc. Mar 14 23:38
balzac but I’m neither excited nor worried about compatibility with the latest hardware Mar 14 23:38
oiaohm Reason programmers hacked around the core engine of gcc to make stuff work. Mar 14 23:38
balzac gamers can worry about this, video and rich-media people can worry about this. Mar 14 23:38
oiaohm Gcc is basically having a massive internal cleam up so Link Time Optimisation can work. Mar 14 23:39
oiaohm The internal mess also caused gcc to be slower than it should have been and eat more ram that is should have. Mar 14 23:39
balzac oh well… it’s good enough for a lot of things Mar 14 23:39
balzac it will continue to improve Mar 14 23:40
oiaohm Basically people have been optmising the out put of gcc and forgetting to clean up gcc it self. Mar 14 23:40
oiaohm Some focus is on fixing up gcc itself. Mar 14 23:40
balzac every so often, a project needs its core re-factored Mar 14 23:40
oiaohm Gcc case would not have been needed if people did not just code in a bypass to the main struct. Mar 14 23:41
oiaohm The bypass also limited what gcc optmisation engines could do. Mar 14 23:41
oiaohm Core design of gcc basically kicks itself hard. Mar 14 23:41
balzac I’m looking forward to the longsoon processors Mar 14 23:42
balzac and arm processors Mar 14 23:42
seller_liar oiaohm: We can use more specific code as temporaty solution Mar 14 23:42
balzac eating into the market-share of those hardware manufacturers who’ve been enabling proprietary software monopoly Mar 14 23:42
seller_liar oiaohm: specific code is the better solution for more speed Mar 14 23:42
schestowitz         > balzac> every so often, a project needs its core re-factored Mar 14 23:43
schestowitz KDE3, GNOME3, OOo tokeniser.. Mar 14 23:43
schestowitz OOo antialiasing (almost half a million lines of code changed).. Mar 14 23:43
seller_liar liboil for exampple create a lot of simple algos for each type of archictecture Mar 14 23:43
Balrog_ seller_liar: not a good idea Mar 14 23:43
seller_liar why? Mar 14 23:43
Balrog_ (fine in a compiler; not in your software) Mar 14 23:43
schestowitz Yes Mar 14 23:44
Balrog_ look at early Mac OS Mar 14 23:44
schestowitz But that’s not the point Mar 14 23:44
schestowitz algos are also ASMs Mar 14 23:44
Balrog_ was almost 100% M68K ASM Mar 14 23:44
schestowitz So I think he meant something else Mar 14 23:44
Balrog_ hand-coded Mar 14 23:44
seller_liar for example we can create code for x86 , x8664 and arm Mar 14 23:44
schestowitz In HL P/L ????? Mar 14 23:44
seller_liar we can create 3 or 4 instances of same code Mar 14 23:44
schestowitz bad idea Mar 14 23:44
seller_liar why? Mar 14 23:44
balzac IF YOU OTHERWISE TRANSFER POSSESSION OF ANY COPY, Mar 14 23:45
balzac MODIFICATION OR MERGED PORTION OF THE PROGRAM TO ANOTHER Mar 14 23:45
balzac PARTY, YOUR LICENSE IS AUTOMATICALLY TERMINATED. Mar 14 23:45
Balrog_ bad for maintenance Mar 14 23:45
oiaohm Classic case was found in reactos when complier works custom code for a solution can workout way slower than letting the complier do it. Mar 14 23:45
balzac nice use of all caps in the portland groups EULA Mar 14 23:45
Balrog_ fix one version, woun’t fix other Mar 14 23:45
Balrog_ s/u/ Mar 14 23:45
seller_liar We repeat only 10% of software Mar 14 23:45
Balrog_ you have three branches to maintain, rather than one Mar 14 23:45
Balrog_ and if it’s time-critical code? Mar 14 23:46
seller_liar for example , we optimize only the most used parts of software Mar 14 23:46
seller_liar we don t optimize everything Mar 14 23:46
oiaohm Means to get more speed by doing blocks of asm when it could be done in C or some other lang is a clear sign of a complier optimiser problem. Mar 14 23:46
seller_liar only 10% odf software Mar 14 23:46
balzac        Notwithstanding the above language, You acknowledge that as part of the Mar 14 23:47
balzac Software you may receive Run-Time Libraries in the form of Microsoft Foundation Mar 14 23:47
balzac Classes (MFCs), Active Template Libraries (ATLs), and/or “C” Runtime files (CRTs) Mar 14 23:47
balzac in binary form only (“Microsoft Distributable Code”). You acknowledge that you Mar 14 23:47
balzac have the right to that Microsoft Distributable Code to design, develop or test for use Mar 14 23:47
balzac with the Software only. Mar 14 23:47
balzac portland group is distributing M$ code Mar 14 23:47
Balrog_ once you’re stuck with specific-to-platform code, it’s terribly hard to port Mar 14 23:47
oiaohm You can get a licence for that stuff balzac Mar 14 23:47
oiaohm From mainsoft that happens to make cross platform versions. Mar 14 23:48
balzac I would not touch it with a ten-foot pole Mar 14 23:48
schestowitz I dn’t trust mainsoft Mar 14 23:48
schestowitz Mono chums Mar 14 23:48
balzac I think the only value it could possibly have is to be reverse-engineered a bit for possible new approaches to be used in GCC Mar 14 23:49
schestowitz .NET and stuff… marrying Microsoft with… stuff Mar 14 23:49
oiaohm Really nothing porland group does is that special balzac Mar 14 23:49
balzac but reverse-engineering can be a waste of time too. Mar 14 23:49
oiaohm Its a simple core design things right. Mar 14 23:49
balzac oiaohm: I believe you. Mar 14 23:49
Balrog_ oiaohm: so what do *you* think about LLVM and Clang? Mar 14 23:50
balzac The all-caps portions of the license remind me of an American tourist in a foreign country, talking loud and slow to people. Mar 14 23:50
oiaohm llvm is along the right path.  Clang also along the right path. Mar 14 23:50
Balrog_ all-caps are harder to read Mar 14 23:50
Balrog_ the license is BSDtype though Mar 14 23:51
oiaohm llvm and clang have fairly clean designs for what they do. Mar 14 23:51
Balrog_ s/Dt/D t Mar 14 23:51
oiaohm People forget BSD have there own complier not gcc for the simple reason how much memory and researchs gcc eats up building stuff. Mar 14 23:51
schestowitz Breaking/Flashing: T-Mobile G1 Fire Sale: Handsets Under $80 < http://jkontherun.com/2009/03/13/t-m… > Mar 14 23:52
oiaohm gcc is the most bloated complier in existance due to its design flaws. Mar 14 23:52
Balrog_ what compiler does BSD use? Mar 14 23:52
Balrog_ (Apple uses GCC, but is contributing heavily to LLVM / Clang, by the way) Mar 14 23:52
benJIman You can get them for free on Tmobile here Mar 14 23:52
Balrog_ benJIman: where? Mar 14 23:53
benJIman Tmobile shop. Mar 14 23:53
benJIman It’s only on the £30 a month tariff. Mar 14 23:53
schestowitz ‘Free’ Mar 14 23:53
Balrog_ country? Mar 14 23:53
*kentma1 (n=user@host81-157-148-240.range81-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovell Mar 14 23:53
schestowitz Like free puppy Mar 14 23:53
Balrog_ it’s not free Mar 14 23:53
*kentma has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) Mar 14 23:53
Balrog_ rather subsidized Mar 14 23:53
schestowitz Get your hands washed… lots of poop and dog food coming Mar 14 23:54
schestowitz Sub-notebooks adopt similar methods Mar 14 23:54
schestowitz iPhone too Mar 14 23:54
benJIman N97 out soon. I doubt I’ll upgrade my n800 yet though. Mar 14 23:54
schestowitz It ain’t $400 Mar 14 23:54
Balrog_ iphone is like $500-$700 without a contract Mar 14 23:54
schestowitz with bars Mar 14 23:55
benJIman Still? The hardware is not worth that any more, it was whewn it was first released. Mar 14 23:55
oiaohm bsd complier Balrog that very had to find.  Its used basically to audit source code before wasted the time passing programs through gcc. Mar 14 23:55
Balrog_ hard..??? Mar 14 23:55
benJIman http://www.youtube.com/wa… Mar 14 23:55
Balrog_ oh, the BSD compiler Mar 14 23:55
Balrog_ not what FreeBSD and NetBSD use… Mar 14 23:55
Balrog_ and OpenBSD Mar 14 23:55
oiaohm OpenBSD and NetBSD use it for time saving. Mar 14 23:56
Balrog_ you mean like Sun’s compiler, which produces much slower code than GCC? Mar 14 23:56
_Hicham_ oiaohm : gcc 4 is rather good Mar 14 23:56
schestowitz benJIman: nice, but Pre is coming too Mar 14 23:56
oiaohm _Hicham_: you are talking about a person who has been in the internals og gcc. Mar 14 23:57
oiaohm og/of Mar 14 23:57
_Hicham_ why didn’t u contribute to it ? Mar 14 23:57
_Hicham_ gcc is open Mar 14 23:57
oiaohm That why I went through the source code in the first place _Hicham_ Mar 14 23:58
oiaohm Both binutils and gcc have had code added against there base design. Mar 14 23:59
_Hicham_ well, u can even propose a complete design change Mar 14 23:59
oiaohm binutils cannot support all platforms from one any anymore. Mar 14 23:59
_Hicham_ but propose also a migration scheme Mar 14 23:59
oiaohm Due to cpu/platform dependant alterations being done in the wrong places. Mar 14 23:59
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