03.15.09

^{Gemini version available ♊︎}

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 15th, 2009 – Part 1

Posted in IRC Logs at 8:48 pm by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.

balzac	oiaohm: do you think anyone on the gcc team is being obstinant, stubborn, or slow to accept an obviously necessary adaptation?	Mar 15 00:00
balzac	loaded question…	Mar 15 00:00
Balrog_	isn’t GCC extremely huge as it is?	Mar 15 00:00
oiaohm	No size of mess balzac	Mar 15 00:00
oiaohm	It fixing the issues in binutils and gcc without bringing the house of cards down.	Mar 15 00:00
schestowitz	“Subject: Suse was good” http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story…	Mar 15 00:00
balzac	I remember reading about a guy named Con Kolivas who seemed to have nice ideas for the Linux kernel, but he wasn’t socially integrated and left the project.	Mar 15 00:00
oiaohm	Con kolivas could not take that his theory was wrong.	Mar 15 00:01
balzac	hmm, I didn’t look closely enough to judge.	Mar 15 00:01
oiaohm	He was so focused on the sheduler that he was missing the major cause of problem.	Mar 15 00:01
oiaohm	Same thing has happened over the years with gcc and binutils.	Mar 15 00:02
balzac	but I know that people in software projects can be overly-utilitarian at the expense of social etiquette.	Mar 15 00:02
_Hicham_	oiaohm : u can break down compatibility with previous versions	Mar 15 00:02
_Hicham_	plus, it costs a lot to redesign everything	Mar 15 00:02
balzac	good communication is primary, so even if a guy “doesn’t get” this or that, he can get it later and remain productively integrated into the project.	Mar 15 00:02
oiaohm	It if was just breaking compatiblity between versions it would be simple.	Mar 15 00:02
_Hicham_	that is why everthing is “hacked”	Mar 15 00:02
_Hicham_	what do u suggest oiaohm?	Mar 15 00:03
oiaohm	I attempted to fix 1 thing in binutils and broke 30 platforms.	Mar 15 00:03
schestowitz	“Couple all that to the recent meltdown of the world economy, and Microsoft may find they have bitten off more than they can chew if they try to kill GNU/Linux through their deal with Novell.” http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_sto…	Mar 15 00:03
balzac	I would recommend the GCC team, Linux kernel team, Drupal devs have parties in which mushroom tea is offered.	Mar 15 00:03
_Hicham_	see?	Mar 15 00:03
oiaohm	Due to dependancy on that struct that was in the wrong place.	Mar 15 00:03
balzac	I’m going to make a software company in which we take shrooms and code amazing software.	Mar 15 00:03
_Hicham_	oiaohm : and u still criticize gcc team?	Mar 15 00:04
balzac	_Hicham_: criticism is not bad	Mar 15 00:04
oiaohm	I am not exactly criticizing the current team.	Mar 15 00:04
oiaohm	They have one mother of a mess.	Mar 15 00:04
_Hicham_	balzac : i didnt say that critcism is bad	Mar 15 00:04
balzac	_Hicham_: I didn’t say you said that	Mar 15 00:04
oiaohm	We need to be aware that it is a mother of mess.	Mar 15 00:05
_Hicham_	oiaohm : legacy code should be reused	Mar 15 00:05
Balrog_	_Hicham_: not necessarily	Mar 15 00:05
balzac	oiaohm: I’ve seen good ideas fall by the way-side because the critic didn’t add enough pleasant language around their vision.	Mar 15 00:05
_Hicham_	Balrog : any piece of code is an investment	Mar 15 00:05
balzac	like this guy on a GNU dev list who sounded like Simon Cowell	Mar 15 00:06
oiaohm	Badly designed code is worthless _Hicham_	Mar 15 00:06
Balrog_	what about the old Mac OS ?	Mar 15 00:06
Balrog_	well designed for its use, but very useless on more modern systems	Mar 15 00:06
_Hicham_	oiaohm : but it works	Mar 15 00:06
oiaohm	Lot of people have been coding with the design with gcc in the past with o well lets just make it work.	Mar 15 00:06
oiaohm	Don’t care how evilly we alter the source base.	Mar 15 00:06
_Hicham_	that what matters : “it works”	Mar 15 00:06
oiaohm	Define works.	Mar 15 00:07
Balrog_	(meaning, it was very good for the 128-K ram machines it was designed for. But try scaling it to 100′s of MHz systems and problems happen.)	Mar 15 00:07
oiaohm	Gcc cannot optmise correctly due to the defects caused by the hacks. Uses massivly more ram and so on.	Mar 15 00:07
oiaohm	Also fails randomally at times because of some of the hacks.	Mar 15 00:07
_Hicham_	because it is cross platform	Mar 15 00:07
oiaohm	It very much like driving a car with a run flat tire.	Mar 15 00:08
_Hicham_	and there is a huge amount of software that are build with it	Mar 15 00:08
oiaohm	yes the can is driveable.	Mar 15 00:08
_Hicham_	starting from the kernel	Mar 15 00:08
oiaohm	can/car	Mar 15 00:08
oiaohm	You should hear Linux on gcc	Mar 15 00:08
oiaohm	Opps Linus	Mar 15 00:08
oiaohm	he hates it worse than me.	Mar 15 00:08
balzac	well, Linus seems to have a bit of an agenda	Mar 15 00:08
_Hicham_	well, he didnt propose a compiler	Mar 15 00:09
balzac	carping and moaning	Mar 15 00:09
balzac	barking all the time	Mar 15 00:09
_Hicham_	by the way, which compiler did he use at the time?	Mar 15 00:09
oiaohm	The hacks in Linux kernel to get around gcc optmisation and exe production failures is a lot.	Mar 15 00:09
oiaohm	Linus pure gcc user.	Mar 15 00:09
balzac	obviously, gcc needs to keep advancing	Mar 15 00:09
balzac	that is not debatable	Mar 15 00:09
balzac	sounds like you’re aware of a lot of possible improvements	Mar 15 00:10
balzac	what obstacles do you face?	Mar 15 00:10
oiaohm	legacy code in gcc	Mar 15 00:10
oiaohm	and binutils.	Mar 15 00:10
oiaohm	Its like playing with a active time bomb.	Mar 15 00:11
balzac	oiaohm: are the gcc devs on the same page with you?	Mar 15 00:11
oiaohm	Yes	Mar 15 00:11
balzac	i think that may bit a bit alarmist	Mar 15 00:11
_Hicham_	oiaohm : do u have a design proposition?	Mar 15 00:11
balzac	it’s software, not defusing bombs	Mar 15 00:11
oiaohm	The designs to fix the faults have been done.	Mar 15 00:11
*kentma1 has quit (Connection timed out)		Mar 15 00:11
_Hicham_	have they been committed?	Mar 15 00:12
balzac	oiaohm: sounds like it always comes down to social issues	Mar 15 00:12
oiaohm	Its getting the hacks that are in the way of the designs working.	Mar 15 00:12
balzac	oiaohm: is the legacy code keeping older architectures usable? can there be conditionals to isolate the legacy code without removing to the possible detriment of some old compatibility?	Mar 15 00:13
_Hicham_	yes, that what i was asking	Mar 15 00:13
oiaohm	The hacks in the legacy code can put complete languages support by gcc non functional.	Mar 15 00:14
oiaohm	If you remove them and don’t recode them.	Mar 15 00:14
balzac	ic	Mar 15 00:14
oiaohm	binutils corrections takes out platforms.	Mar 15 00:14
balzac	It sounds like a responsible code refactoring is in order, but without losing anything which is worth having.	Mar 15 00:15
oiaohm	Yes its a nasty mess that should never of happened.	Mar 15 00:15
balzac	too late now	Mar 15 00:15
oiaohm	Thinking all the hacks are against the gcc base design documents.	Mar 15 00:15
_Hicham_	oiaohm : u should live up with	Mar 15 00:15
_Hicham_	the initial design is not always perfect	Mar 15 00:15
balzac	I suppose the dev server tells the story of who made what code	Mar 15 00:16
oiaohm	initial design was not perfect.	Mar 15 00:16
MinceR	gn	Mar 15 00:16
balzac	so inside the project, people may debate the merits of various designs and of each other’s influence on the project	Mar 15 00:16
_Hicham_	oiaohm : due to hardware and concepts at that time	Mar 15 00:16
oiaohm	Just altering sections of a program without thinking about long term problems will get you into trouble.	Mar 15 00:16
_Hicham_	oiaohm : u can’t alter a program for nothing	Mar 15 00:17
_Hicham_	compatibility is more important	Mar 15 00:17
oiaohm	Some has been like allocating memory when gcc started up for some platforms that should have been allocated when it was needed.	Mar 15 00:17
_Hicham_	better write a bridge or sthg to add functionality	Mar 15 00:17
oiaohm	Then other parts resuing that allocated memory.	Mar 15 00:18
oiaohm	For other items other than it was alocated for in the first place.	Mar 15 00:18
oiaohm	Pure basic coding rules broken.	Mar 15 00:18
oiaohm	Maintainers these days forbid those kind of things.	Mar 15 00:19
_Hicham_	modern coding it not as 1983 coding	Mar 15 00:19
oiaohm	Early days of gcc did not have strong enough maintainers.	Mar 15 00:19
oiaohm	Even in 1983 doing that kind of stuff was bad coding _Hicham_	Mar 15 00:19
_Hicham_	plus, who was interested?	Mar 15 00:19
_Hicham_	RMS only at first	Mar 15 00:19
oiaohm	RMS base code was well designed. It was some of the latter maintainers where the evil sneeked in.	Mar 15 00:20
_Hicham_	RMS wasn’t backed by a big company like AT&T, and he done gcc	Mar 15 00:20
oiaohm	Removing it now is a slow and painful process.	Mar 15 00:20
_Hicham_	the hacks are necessary, wherever u go	Mar 15 00:21
_Hicham_	i seen some of windows nt and 2000 code, and it is really full of bad hacks	Mar 15 00:21
schestowitz	Windows is a mess	Mar 15 00:21
schestowitz	Same problem	Mar 15 00:21
schestowitz	Not modular	Mar 15 00:21
schestowitz	Needs redesign	Mar 15 00:22
schestowitz	MS promised redesign	Mar 15 00:22
schestowitz	Around 2005	Mar 15 00:22
_Hicham_	even if windows is maintained by a single company	Mar 15 00:22
schestowitz	After “development collapse”	Mar 15 00:22
schestowitz	They couldn’t incorporate major changes	Mar 15 00:22
oiaohm	1,200 failures in the testsuite compared with mainline << link time optmisation branch failures.	Mar 15 00:22
schestowitz	Did another XP with nicer theme/engine instead	Mar 15 00:22
oiaohm	Most of those are cause purely by the old hacks.	Mar 15 00:22
balzac	oiaohm: corporations can have good standards and resources, but so can academic institutions	Mar 15 00:22
schestowitz	It wasnt modular	Mar 15 00:22
schestowitz	It still isn’t	Mar 15 00:22
schestowitz	Microsoft also wanted fast boot	Mar 15 00:22
schestowitz	Never got around to it	Mar 15 00:22
oiaohm	Gcc was design to be moduler	Mar 15 00:22
schestowitz	Just vapourware	Mar 15 00:22
schestowitz	Windows core devs left	Mar 15 00:23
schestowitz	Many of the new are new, cheap, overworked labour	Mar 15 00:23
schestowitz	BTW	Mar 15 00:23
balzac	well, I’m hoping we’ll see more funding for GNU and the FSF	Mar 15 00:23
oiaohm	Its just not these days. Hopefully in under a year it will return to moduler.	Mar 15 00:23
schestowitz	Vista 7 is developed in Bangalore	Mar 15 00:23
balzac	uh oh	Mar 15 00:23
schestowitz	Not that there’s anything wrong with Bangalore	Mar 15 00:23
_Hicham_	schestowitz : ms managed to have “fast boot” by starting services after logon	Mar 15 00:23
schestowitz	Office developers outnumber Win developers	Mar 15 00:23
schestowitz	OT: “The space shuttle Discovery is on pace for a Sunday launch after NASA engineers repaired a leaky gas venting system, officials said Saturday.” < http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/space/0… >	Mar 15 00:23
_Hicham_	oiaohm : it is not gcc’s fault	Mar 15 00:24
_Hicham_	it is the way of evolution	Mar 15 00:24
schestowitz	_Hicham_: was referring to the mythical MinWin…	Mar 15 00:24
_Hicham_	and compatibility constraints	Mar 15 00:24
schestowitz	gcc stays as it is while they redesign	Mar 15 00:25
schestowitz	Think KDE	Mar 15 00:25
schestowitz	KDE needed to be cleaned up	Mar 15 00:25
oiaohm	Part of the problem _Hicham_ is people calling gcc good when its not. Ok gcc is good so I can do a tweek and don’t have to fix up core … So failure formed.	Mar 15 00:25
schestowitz	KDE 3.5.x was still around	Mar 15 00:25
schestowitz	4.0 was seen as unready	Mar 15 00:25
Balrog_	GCC 4 did improve a lot	Mar 15 00:25
schestowitz	But people carried on using KDE, even if just KDE 3.5.x while dvs built a new generation	Mar 15 00:25
_Hicham_	oiaohm : redesign is not that easy	Mar 15 00:26
schestowitz	Seigo et al would compare it to 747	Mar 15 00:26
oiaohm	Gcc 4 include 1 of the first alterations heading to Link time optimisation. Balrog_	Mar 15 00:26
schestowitz	Almost killed them, but now they get through as starsa	Mar 15 00:26
_Hicham_	especially for a cross platform compiler	Mar 15 00:26
balzac	oiaohm: I agree it’s bad when people get materialistic about the code. The license is the best part of GCC.	Mar 15 00:26
balzac	code always changes, but the intent of the license still remains	Mar 15 00:26
balzac	reminds me of a song lyric	Mar 15 00:26
balzac	people come and people go, but the mountains still remain	Mar 15 00:27
schestowitz	balzac: same issue in Linux	Mar 15 00:27
schestowitz	They rewrrite many modules	Mar 15 00:27
schestowitz	Stacks and all.. from scratch sometimes	Mar 15 00:27
PeterFA	Anyways, one thing that’s very important is completeness in Linux so that you can adopt it no matter what.	Mar 15 00:27
oiaohm	Linux kernel had the best of it.	Mar 15 00:27
schestowitz	Devs can take away anything they wrote	Mar 15 00:27
balzac	yep	Mar 15 00:27
balzac	oiaohm: here’s the solution	Mar 15 00:27
oiaohm	Call the big kernel lock.	Mar 15 00:27
schestowitz	So the selfishness/possessiveness is no missue	Mar 15 00:27
balzac	there’s another thing more important than code – people	Mar 15 00:27
PeterFA	I need a list of all the projects needed for an infinitely large IT infrastructure.	Mar 15 00:27
schestowitz	That’s why many people dive in Debian	Mar 15 00:27
oiaohm	Big kernel lock is fine. When it was killing performance.	Mar 15 00:27
PeterFA	You guys know of such a list?	Mar 15 00:27
balzac	new people with new ideas need to value the people who’ve been there, and the people who’ve been there need to welcome new people with fresh ideas.	Mar 15 00:28
schestowitz	They know the feeling of working really hard on code at word… and not being permtted to even take a copy for memories.	Mar 15 00:28
schestowitz	Or for use… or rave.. or downloads, eyc.	Mar 15 00:28
schestowitz	This neglects one of the characteristic of human activity	Mar 15 00:28
schestowitz	Like creatitivity	Mar 15 00:28
balzac	the internal development environment should be competetive yet friendly	Mar 15 00:28
schestowitz	Like people who work at mills vs /owning/ the mills	Mar 15 00:28
schestowitz	Being one modern social issue..	Mar 15 00:28
oiaohm	People need to take the point of view with open source its never perfect. Best it is is ok. It always can be better. Good makes you forget about a programs flaws.	Mar 15 00:29
balzac	corporate influence should be checked in favor of the general well-being and success of the project.	Mar 15 00:29
balzac	The GNU GPL says “free software”, not “open source”. GCC is not open source.	Mar 15 00:29
oiaohm	Same has happened with windows.	Mar 15 00:29
oiaohm	People disgrard lot of Windows flaws.	Mar 15 00:30
schestowitz	balzac: yes, important to distinguish there.	Mar 15 00:30
schestowitz	oiaohm: they have investor pressure	Mar 15 00:30
schestowitz	Watch what they did with Vista	Mar 15 00:30
schestowitz	They knew it was unfit	Mar 15 00:30
schestowitz	They could take their time and leave XP out there	Mar 15 00:30
schestowitz	Instead they destroryed trust	Mar 15 00:31
schestowitz	They are in many ways destoryed now	Mar 15 00:31
balzac	I’d like to see more funding for GNU so that influence from corporations can be deflected more easily	Mar 15 00:31
schestowitz	They have only a couple of valuable eggs in the basket	Mar 15 00:31
oiaohm	Vista is a case of over promising then trying to do it.	Mar 15 00:31
schestowitz	For the other one (office) they committed crimes (c.f. OOXML	Mar 15 00:31
balzac	internal funding would help offset the temptation of developers to hack GCC for the benefit of one company or another	Mar 15 00:31
oiaohm	KDE 4.0 made the same mistake of over promising and missing the fine details.	Mar 15 00:31
schestowitz	oiaohm: KDE4 is OK now	Mar 15 00:32
schestowitz	4.2.1	Mar 15 00:32
schestowitz	People like it	Mar 15 00:32
schestowitz	I rarely find negative reviews	Mar 15 00:32
schestowitz	None I can think of ATM	Mar 15 00:32
oiaohm	Exactly they fixed the fine details.	Mar 15 00:32
balzac	not saying it’s happening, but this issue seems prevalent in quite a few important projects – that third parties try to influence development for themselves in the manner lobbyists try to influence elected officials.	Mar 15 00:32
oiaohm	Windows 7 is still forgetting the fine details.	Mar 15 00:32
schestowitz	oiaohm: Vista 7	Mar 15 00:32
schestowitz	Bugfix	Mar 15 00:32
schestowitz	Biggest ‘bug’: name	Mar 15 00:33
schestowitz	They could call it Mojave	Mar 15 00:33
schestowitz	Slim down, change name, change GUI	Mar 15 00:33
oiaohm	Same with kde 4.2.1 is really a bug fix.	Mar 15 00:33
schestowitz	Oh!	Mar 15 00:33
schestowitz	And bribe bloggers	Mar 15 00:33
schestowitz	Many of them	Mar 15 00:33
schestowitz	Control perceptions	Mar 15 00:33
oiaohm	Difference is kde 4.2.1 covered the key problems.	Mar 15 00:33
schestowitz	Beause in reality it’s the same pig under another name	Mar 15 00:33
oiaohm	Windows 7 still has major problems.	Mar 15 00:33
oiaohm	Its more like a KDE 4.1	Mar 15 00:33
schestowitz	They realy on only enthusiasts with high-end boxes trying it	Mar 15 00:33
schestowitz	Not the housewife with a single-core Celeron.	Mar 15 00:34
oiaohm	Open source and Windows defects line up from time to time.	Mar 15 00:34
schestowitz	oiaohm: like Debian	Mar 15 00:34
schestowitz	Add features	Mar 15 00:34
schestowitz	Then polish for twice the time or whatever	Mar 15 00:34
schestowitz	Must find tradeoff point	Mar 15 00:34
schestowitz	KDE4 was a huge leap	Mar 15 00:35
schestowitz	WinFS too high a leap for Windows too	Mar 15 00:35
oiaohm	WinFS were is it.	Mar 15 00:35
schestowitz	They DIDN’T even TRY it in VIssta7	Mar 15 00:35
schestowitz	What does that tell you?	Mar 15 00:35
schestowitz	They added nothing MAJOR.	Mar 15 00:35
balzac	microsoft isn’t the only company to try to corrupt organizations which ought to be neutral (ISO, for example)	Mar 15 00:35
schestowitz	They can’t	Mar 15 00:35
schestowitz	They are scared	Mar 15 00:35
schestowitz	balzac: it’s not just ISO	Mar 15 00:35
schestowitz	It’s many more	Mar 15 00:35
schestowitz	Another example tomorrow i BN	Mar 15 00:36
schestowitz	Open University	Mar 15 00:36
schestowitz	CompTIA	Mar 15 00:36
schestowitz	Heh. Even the BBC	Mar 15 00:36
schestowitz	The BBC is crushed	Mar 15 00:36
oiaohm	When Linux gets btrfs MS will have some trouble.	Mar 15 00:36
schestowitz	The reputation is bad in the Apple circles too	Mar 15 00:36
balzac	I think Torvald’s attention to keeping people from discussing politics obfuscates all of the political jockeying which happens inside the Linus Kernel project.	Mar 15 00:36
schestowitz	The manager of the BBC Internet thingie left a comment in BN earlier	Mar 15 00:36
balzac	not all of it	Mar 15 00:36
schestowitz	Not for the first time	Mar 15 00:36
schestowitz	The BBC doesn’t like what I’ve said about them since the deals with MS	Mar 15 00:36
balzac	schestowitz: agreed	Mar 15 00:36
*ushimitsudoki1 (n=ushimits@p2005-ipad01yosemiya.okinawa.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 15 00:37
schestowitz	balzac: cause it turns off his sponsors	Mar 15 00:37
schestowitz	Imagine a group of programmers who talk about evil corporations	Mar 15 00:37
balzac	the only way to “exorcise the demons” of corroption is to allow people to speak out against corrupting influences	Mar 15 00:37
schestowitz	Against lobbying and such…	Mar 15 00:37
schestowitz	IBM and Intel would finf it damaging,a turnoff.	Mar 15 00:38
balzac	well, if you’re going to allow intel, invidia, or some other corporation to get special favor from the kernel project, at least you can be upfront about it.	Mar 15 00:38
balzac	just make it official	Mar 15 00:38
oiaohm	Linus avoids doing anyone a favour.	Mar 15 00:38
balzac	yes, we’re going to favor this company’s implementation of sooper-dooper threading tech	Mar 15 00:38
schestowitz	ushimitsudoki, tessier: “Nokia, in order to take to the next level the Maemo platform – the open source software that powers mobile devices such as the N810 Internet Tablet – is now looking for people.” < http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/03/0… >	Mar 15 00:39
oiaohm	You code has to be up to standard or its not getting in.	Mar 15 00:39
balzac	they gave us some funding, their competitor did not	Mar 15 00:39
balzac	better be more generous next time, brand-b	Mar 15 00:39
balzac	oiaohm: but seriously, it’s not a frigging meritocracy	Mar 15 00:39
oiaohm	Nokia does not want to have to pay anyone for there OS.	Mar 15 00:39
balzac	it’s business	Mar 15 00:39
schestowitz	oiaohm: Nokia is weird	Mar 15 00:40
schestowitz	Also with Symbian at hand	Mar 15 00:40
schestowitz	it’s like they compete vs themselves	Mar 15 00:40
balzac	RMS is not Jesus, and of course there’s plenty of business which happens inside these projects	Mar 15 00:40
schestowitz	They are baffled	Mar 15 00:40
oiaohm	Not really schestowitz	Mar 15 00:40
schestowitz	They lose share (Symbian)	Mar 15 00:40
oiaohm	Nokia started the Linux project before they got Symbian.	Mar 15 00:41
balzac	so, people should just not act as if they’re fooling anyone when they endorse this tech over that	Mar 15 00:41
oiaohm	To untie themselfs from Symbian.	Mar 15 00:41
schestowitz	oiaohm: which Linux project specifically?	Mar 15 00:41
schestowitz	Maemo?	Mar 15 00:41
schestowitz	Nokia owned most of Symbian	Mar 15 00:41
oiaohm	Then they got Symbian cheep.	Mar 15 00:41
schestowitz	Like 70%	Mar 15 00:41
balzac	if there’s a business reason for it, rather than purely the technical merits of the idea	Mar 15 00:41
schestowitz	They call it Symbian Foundation now	Mar 15 00:42
balzac	people should not be expected to be absolutely pure either	Mar 15 00:42
schestowitz	To hide the fact that it’s just Nokia	Mar 15 00:42
schestowitz	Like “Linux Foundatiion”	Mar 15 00:42
oiaohm	Nokia you have to think about them as a hardware company.	Mar 15 00:42
schestowitz	Come and help (for free) this ‘foundation’	Mar 15 00:42
schestowitz	More of an IBM front	Mar 15 00:42
schestowitz	Among others	Mar 15 00:42
oiaohm	What they are doing is not wiered.	Mar 15 00:42
PeterFA	The estimated cost to redevelop the most recent kernel versions would be at $1.14 billion USD. http://is.gd/nnY6	Mar 15 00:42
balzac	yeah	Mar 15 00:42
schestowitz	But with a conceited Jim Zemlin on top	Mar 15 00:42
balzac	I can’t help but feel a little cynical about the way words like “community” are thrown around	Mar 15 00:42
oiaohm	Nokia interest in software is to sell more phones.	Mar 15 00:42
oiaohm	Not to make profit from software.	Mar 15 00:43
schestowitz	balzac: I avoid the word community	Mar 15 00:43
oiaohm	Really this kind of competior is MS worst nightmare.	Mar 15 00:43
balzac	I wasn’t born yesterday and I’m no chump.	Mar 15 00:43
schestowitz	Reminds me of kumbaya and communism	Mar 15 00:43
schestowitz	Used against us	Mar 15 00:43
schestowitz	I avoid “community” like I avoid “IP” or “oiracy”	Mar 15 00:43
schestowitz	I increasingly avoid “open source” too	Mar 15 00:44
oiaohm	Nokia release Qt under LGPL as well when they took that company over.	Mar 15 00:44
balzac	I know what community is and I’m not going to have a sense of belonging substituted for the money I should be getting.	Mar 15 00:44
schestowitz	oiaohm: Microsoft wanted to try the same	Mar 15 00:44
schestowitz	By buying RIM	Mar 15 00:44
schestowitz	But it would alienate those who license WM	Mar 15 00:44
oiaohm	If you look at all software companys Nokia has aquired almost all of them have gone open source.	Mar 15 00:44
balzac	nor am I going to accept a sense of belonging in place of the freedoms which should be respected	Mar 15 00:45
schestowitz	balzac: as Hans B said, there are many community	Mar 15 00:45
balzac	no Hovo Sapient is going to drain the power from my ego	Mar 15 00:45
oiaohm	Nokia 100 percent lack of interest in being a software company shows through.	Mar 15 00:45
schestowitz	Not “‘the’ community”	Mar 15 00:45
schestowitz	There are many factions with similar goals	Mar 15 00:45
schestowitz	Like FSF	Mar 15 00:45
*seller_liar has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”)		Mar 15 00:45
schestowitz	BN has its own views too	Mar 15 00:45
schestowitz	Which some disagree with	Mar 15 00:45
schestowitz	LinuxToday is one	Mar 15 00:45
schestowitz	I don’t like LXer	Mar 15 00:46
schestowitz	LinuxToday is supportive of BN	Mar 15 00:46
oiaohm	If nokia moved into the desktop market it would gt interesting.	Mar 15 00:46
schestowitz	Groklaw too	Mar 15 00:46
oiaohm	gt/get	Mar 15 00:46
schestowitz	Groklaw doesn’t like the lxer community either	Mar 15 00:46
schestowitz	PJ anyway…	Mar 15 00:46
schestowitz	But Brian Proffitt she likes (LT)	Mar 15 00:46
*schestowitz wonders if he’s still subscribed to BN		Mar 15 00:47
schestowitz	oiaohm: but Nokia hardly sells software	Mar 15 00:47
schestowitz	Since like.. forever.	Mar 15 00:47
_Hicham_	balzac : have u ever added debian unstable repo to ubuntu?	Mar 15 00:47
oiaohm	Nokia sells hardware that is what would make it interesting.	Mar 15 00:48
oiaohm	Apple without the hardware lock in in the desktop market would cause some interseting effects.	Mar 15 00:48
schestowitz	http://www.paolo-mantovani.org/…	Mar 15 00:49
schestowitz	oiaohm: not sure	Mar 15 00:50
schestowitz	It would affect the ‘experience’	Mar 15 00:50
balzac	_Hicham_: I haven’t tried that	Mar 15 00:50
schestowitz	They can police lots of things	Mar 15 00:50
balzac	_Hicham_: I was considering converting my Ubuntu installations to debian by switching repos	Mar 15 00:50
balzac	it depends on how long the ubuntu ops keep my username banned from #ubuntu	Mar 15 00:51
balzac	I told them, i might make an end-run around them, effectively pulling rank if I can pull it off	Mar 15 00:51
oiaohm	How do you get banned from #ubuntu	Mar 15 00:51
oiaohm	I thought that was impossiable.	Mar 15 00:52
balzac	well, I complained that #ubuntu-offtopic wasn’t a very inviting name	Mar 15 00:52
schestowitz	ROTFLMAO http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/200… Wow! Microsoft’s ‘google killer’ looks good… wow! Look at the…….. background photos! How can google defeat these graphics?	Mar 15 00:52
balzac	I prefer the sound of #fedora-social, for example	Mar 15 00:52
_Hicham_	balzac : did u try migrating to debian by changing repos?	Mar 15 00:52
balzac	Also, I said some irreverant things, like I say here about personal interest inside the project – not about anyone in particular	Mar 15 00:52
balzac	_Hicham_: not yet	Mar 15 00:53
balzac	oiaohm: I spent some time in #ubuntu-ops	Mar 15 00:53
schestowitz	#covert-ops	Mar 15 00:53
balzac	I used Dont_Tase_Me_Bro as my username	Mar 15 00:53
balzac	to me, it’s fun	Mar 15 00:53
oiaohm	Ok those look really bad schestowitz	Mar 15 00:54
balzac	they’re just not accustomed to dealing a fully-intact ego, or a sense of humor	Mar 15 00:54
oiaohm	Look at the dragon text its bluring test out.	Mar 15 00:54
balzac	it’s the corporate influence at work in all the major project channels on freendoe	Mar 15 00:54
balzac	freenode	Mar 15 00:54
balzac	surpress your ego, contribute code, sing along with they hymns	Mar 15 00:55
balzac	know your place, watch your mouth	Mar 15 00:55
balzac	and maybe you’ll get some crumbs eventually	Mar 15 00:55
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balzac	that’s corporate culture for you	Mar 15 00:55
schestowitz	@trmanco : why Digg is pretty much screwed, and the likes of it too: http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/…	Mar 15 00:55
balzac	but I’ve been cultivating an executive ego, so I don’t eat the gruel	Mar 15 00:56
balzac	It would probably be the same if I were using open solaris or fedora	Mar 15 00:57
_Hicham_	balzac : go to debian channel	Mar 15 00:57
balzac	_Hicham_: I’ll be using Debian more in the future	Mar 15 00:57
_Hicham_	Ubuntu packages are weird	Mar 15 00:57
_Hicham_	for example	Mar 15 00:58
_Hicham_	mplayer package is two years outdated	Mar 15 00:58
_Hicham_	even in jaunty	Mar 15 00:58
balzac	I’ll continue with Ubuntu as well, but I think I’m a bit older than the average Ubuntu user. Debian is probably closer to my age group.	Mar 15 00:58
_Hicham_	balzac : :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D	Mar 15 00:58
schestowitz	Is it really related to age?	Mar 15 00:58
balzac	_Hicham_: that’s the kind of thing I’m talking about – people jockeying for position in the repos.	Mar 15 00:58
balzac	schestowitz: to some extent	Mar 15 00:59
balzac	I’m 33. I’m too old for Digg.	Mar 15 00:59
schestowitz	Any numbers?	Mar 15 00:59
schestowitz	Or just superstition?	Mar 15 00:59
balzac	more of a slashdot guy, in terms of age.	Mar 15 00:59
_Hicham_	you know balzac, u r one of the people that i like the most in this channel	Mar 15 00:59
_Hicham_	great sense of humor	Mar 15 00:59
_Hicham_	!	Mar 15 00:59
balzac	thanks _Hicham_	Mar 15 01:00
schestowitz	Google Won’t Remove Pages About You < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/… >	Mar 15 01:00
_Hicham_	actually im adding debian unstable repo to ubuntu	Mar 15 01:00
_Hicham_	i dont if it will work	Mar 15 01:00
balzac	But don’t be upset if I eventually get into Gentoo	Mar 15 01:00
_Hicham_	but sometimes i got sick of seeing everything ok	Mar 15 01:00
balzac	jk	Mar 15 01:00
_Hicham_	balzac : Gentoo is also great	Mar 15 01:01
_Hicham_	balzac : Gentoo is the distro of old people	Mar 15 01:01
balzac	I’m not saying I don’t appreciate Ubuntu though	Mar 15 01:01
_Hicham_	old bearded people	Mar 15 01:01
_Hicham_	balzac : do u have a beard?	Mar 15 01:01
balzac	I’m actually going to have to say my choice in distro isn’t going to very much related to the ops.	Mar 15 01:01
balzac	goatee	Mar 15 01:01
balzac	I’m not the least bit worked up over the issue, personally.	Mar 15 01:02
schestowitz	It’s possible to draw pictures of users for each distro	Mar 15 01:02
schestowitz	Is there already such a thing?	Mar 15 01:02
schestowitz	Not the one with woman superheroes…	Mar 15 01:02
balzac	I was happy to start to get to know the Ubuntu bureaucracy because ultimately I’d like to meet Mark Shuttleworth in person.	Mar 15 01:02
_Hicham_	distrowatch	Mar 15 01:03
schestowitz	Or the humour ‘posters’	Mar 15 01:03
_Hicham_	balzac : do u live in the US?	Mar 15 01:03
schestowitz	balzac: what for?	Mar 15 01:03
schestowitz	Society glamorises normal people	Mar 15 01:03
schestowitz	It’s part of an imposition system	Mar 15 01:03
schestowitz	Make a hero, then use him/her to project	Mar 15 01:04
balzac	Roy, I try to meet people of significance	Mar 15 01:04
schestowitz	Behaviour, thought, attitude. etc.	Mar 15 01:04
schestowitz	E.g. for smoking	Mar 15 01:04
balzac	I’m an aspiring entrepreneur.	Mar 15 01:04
schestowitz	balzac: what for?	Mar 15 01:04
schestowitz	Status?	Mar 15 01:04
balzac	yep	Mar 15 01:04
schestowitz	Oh, so you look for opportunities with them	Mar 15 01:04
schestowitz	OK, that would make more sense.	Mar 15 01:04
balzac	i already told you i proactively cultivate my ego	Mar 15 01:04
balzac	yeah, well having an open channel of communication is good	Mar 15 01:05
schestowitz	sigh	Mar 15 01:05
schestowitz	Yes..	Mar 15 01:05
schestowitz	One of our #bn people writes to Woz	Mar 15 01:05
balzac	having the OPs get out of my way, like bouncers getting out of my way at a club isn’t bad	Mar 15 01:05
balzac	i don’t take social status seriously at all. that’s why i’m not ashamed to seek to have mine acknowledged as being very high.	Mar 15 01:06
schestowitz	OBAMAA is no change: http://blog.wired.com/27bstrok…	Mar 15 01:06
schestowitz	Watch the image	Mar 15 01:06
schestowitz	RMS writes: “Obama continues using Bush’s bullshit excuse to keep ACTA away from all chance of democracy.”	Mar 15 01:06
schestowitz	Typical	Mar 15 01:06
schestowitz	Corporate fascism	Mar 15 01:06
schestowitz	“Stay the F out”mocracy	Mar 15 01:06
schestowitz	de-mock-racy	Mar 15 01:07
schestowitz	That’s the stuff I was gonna write about tomorrow	Mar 15 01:07
schestowitz	I have lots of dirt about ACTA	Mar 15 01:07
schestowitz	If Obama keeps it secret, then he proves to be a corporate tool, sorry	Mar 15 01:09
balzac	I have to look up ACTA	Mar 15 01:10
balzac	ok	Mar 15 01:10
balzac	I saw a chinese version of “Kung Fu Panda”	Mar 15 01:10
balzac	I agree with the idea that people are smart enough to discriminate between real and counterfeit	Mar 15 01:10
balzac	most of the time	Mar 15 01:11
balzac	counterfeit money – I can tell the difference	Mar 15 01:11
balzac	apparel	Mar 15 01:11
balzac	etc	Mar 15 01:11
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balzac	Roy, Obama needs somebody like you to fight your way past his throng and give him the heads up	Mar 15 01:12
balzac	he has to be “served” in the legal sense before you can suppose that his mistakes are not based on ignorance	Mar 15 01:13
schestowitz	http://linuxmednews.com/1236701457 “The OSHIP project is looking for a few more mentors; should it be selected for GSoC 2009″	Mar 15 01:13
schestowitz	balzac: he’s lobbies by Biden&Goons	Mar 15 01:14
schestowitz	Still, people like Lessig should prod him	Mar 15 01:14
schestowitz	ACTA is NOT news	Mar 15 01:14
schestowitz	It’s not as though he hasn’t had time to think about it	Mar 15 01:15
balzac	Obama isn’t jesus either and can’t be held responsible for everything	Mar 15 01:15
schestowitz	It emerged in August of last year in Wikileaks, maybe April.	Mar 15 01:15
balzac	well, he hasn’t gotten around to clearing the way for Bush to be investigated	Mar 15 01:15
schestowitz	I wrote like 25 posts about it in BN and maybe 50 in other places	Mar 15 01:15
schestowitz	It’s igusting	Mar 15 01:15
schestowitz	It’s rotten, it’s dictatorship	Mar 15 01:15
balzac	I’m more concerned with Bush going to prison than ACTA	Mar 15 01:15
schestowitz	And I have a list of the culrits	Mar 15 01:15
schestowitz	I’ll post culprits list tomorrow	Mar 15 01:16
balzac	Obama hasn’t even pulled the military out of Iraq yet	Mar 15 01:16
schestowitz	balzac: that’s the “give him another chance” defense.	Mar 15 01:16
schestowitz	I’ve heard it too many times	Mar 15 01:16
schestowitz	He never expressed intent to change much	Mar 15 01:16
balzac	Roy, I’m not saying that.	Mar 15 01:16
schestowitz	“Change” was the motto (or variations of change) for BOTH camps	Mar 15 01:16
balzac	I’m just saying, first Bush ought to go to prison.	Mar 15 01:16
schestowitz	It’s a PR exercise	Mar 15 01:16
balzac	Occupation of Iraq should end, same with Afghanistan.	Mar 15 01:17
schestowitz	The PR for Obama won an award	Mar 15 01:17
schestowitz	They deceive the public better	Mar 15 01:17
balzac	campaign finance reform, media reform	Mar 15 01:17
schestowitz	Obama would go nowhere near vewis like those of Lessig, Paul, Nader, Chomsky, etc.	Mar 15 01:17
schestowitz	He seemed like a tool	Mar 15 01:17
schestowitz	And sorry, he is showing many times that he just goes with the flow	Mar 15 01:18
balzac	Well, he was with what’s-his-name from the Weather Underground	Mar 15 01:18
schestowitz	balzac: bull	Mar 15 01:18
balzac	what?	Mar 15 01:18
schestowitz	Obama stays in iraq	Mar 15 01:18
_Hicham_	Obama will change nothing	Mar 15 01:18
schestowitz	and a short while after entering office he bombed targets and took pride in it	Mar 15 01:18
_Hicham_	even though his moto was ” We Need Change”	Mar 15 01:18
balzac	Well, if he’s not fully out of Iraq by the next election, I will not vote for him again.	Mar 15 01:19
schestowitz	Well, he will have made his $$ by then	Mar 15 01:19
balzac	If Bush still walks free by the time Obama’s 8 years are finished, I won’t vote for another Democrat in my lifetime.	Mar 15 01:19
schestowitz	Along with his camp	Mar 15 01:19
schestowitz	Lessig hits the nail on the head	Mar 15 01:19
_Hicham_	balzac : he can’t get out of Iraq that easy	Mar 15 01:19
schestowitz	They give favour	Mar 15 01:19
schestowitz	*s	Mar 15 01:19
schestowitz	They cash in ater	Mar 15 01:19
balzac	_Hicham_: I’m aware it’s not easy to change things	Mar 15 01:19
schestowitz	Washington is a money/favour brothel	Mar 15 01:20
schestowitz	Not just a guncrime capital	Mar 15 01:20
balzac	But I have a theory – the repugnicans aren’t going to be able to resist polarizing the political landscape	Mar 15 01:20
balzac	so we’ll see a fight	Mar 15 01:20
schestowitz	LOL repugnicans.. new to em	Mar 15 01:20
balzac	and then we’ll see what happens once the honeymoon is over	Mar 15 01:20
_Hicham_	the honeymoon is over	Mar 15 01:21
schestowitz	Long ago	Mar 15 01:21
balzac	if Obama thinks he can be like Clinton, some repukes will try to pants him	Mar 15 01:21
schestowitz	http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/	Mar 15 01:21
balzac	Roy, the honeymoon ended with liberals before it even began. But when will the repugs hit below the belt?	Mar 15 01:21
balzac	Then we may get to see a pissed off Barack Obama	Mar 15 01:22
balzac	The repigs will do something to make action necessary	Mar 15 01:22
balzac	then maybe the old culprits we’re accustomed to despising will be swept out to the margins of society	Mar 15 01:23
balzac	Clinton thought he could be bi-partisan too	Mar 15 01:23
balzac	then they pantsed him in public	Mar 15 01:23
balzac	so, let them try to pants Obama, and then maybe Bush will land in the clinker	Mar 15 01:24
Balrog_	I don’t think it would be ethical to leave Iraq immediately and let it fall apart	Mar 15 01:24
Balrog_	“we” messed it up in the first place	Mar 15 01:24
balzac	Balrog_: trust me, Iraq is still going to exist, even without Americans patrolling and shooting around.	Mar 15 01:25
balzac	Balrog_: it would be the most ethical thing to do. Immediate withdrawal.	Mar 15 01:25
Balrog_	yes, though there may be civil war and lots of lives lost	Mar 15 01:25
Balrog_	that’s your opinion; I respect it	Mar 15 01:25
Balrog_	though not necessarily support it	Mar 15 01:25
balzac	Moqtada al Sadr would probably become president of Iraq, but honestly, that’s not for Americans to decide.	Mar 15 01:25
Balrog_	the war should never have been started	Mar 15 01:25
oiaohm	Iraq and Afghanistan Usa placed there goverments in power in the first place.	Mar 15 01:26
oiaohm	Both were left overs of the cold war	Mar 15 01:26
balzac	the US needs to get out quickly. Maybe a arabic/kurdish security deal can be arranged as the occupation is ended	Mar 15 01:27
schestowitz	Coool! Opera support Ogg out of the box	Mar 15 01:28
schestowitz	Experimental builds.	Mar 15 01:28
oiaohm	Problem is USA soliders are too incompetent to be a holding force of a country.	Mar 15 01:28
oiaohm	Lot of other countries are also incompetent at it.	Mar 15 01:28
Balrog_	oiaohm: lately they have been paying former Iraqi insurgents to do it	Mar 15 01:28
oiaohm	Use a thief to catch a thief	Mar 15 01:29
Balrog_	heh	Mar 15 01:29
Balrog_	but their people trust them	Mar 15 01:29
balzac	oiaohm: our military is not incompetent, the problem is that they don’t belong in Iraq.	Mar 15 01:29
oiaohm	They are incompetent balzac	Mar 15 01:30
balzac	some are, some are not	Mar 15 01:30
balzac	but no military is competent to occupy the land of another ethnic group and religion	Mar 15 01:30
oiaohm	They have never won a war game against Australian soliders even when they have been given 10 to 1 numbers	Mar 15 01:30
balzac	ah yes, the feared Australian military!	Mar 15 01:31
oiaohm	They don’t know how to correctly build road blocks correctly	Mar 15 01:31
balzac	nations all around the world tremble when the name “Australia” is heard.	Mar 15 01:31
balzac	jk	Mar 15 01:31
oiaohm	Best road block is so simple.	Mar 15 01:31
oiaohm	Snipper and remote camera.	Mar 15 01:31
balzac	oiaohm: it doesn’t matter how competent a military force is, a guerilla insurgency will never end until they get pulled out from where they ought not to be.	Mar 15 01:32
oiaohm	Solider never gets close enough to be blown up.	Mar 15 01:32
oiaohm	Australian soliders have first hand experencing beating guerillas from east timor.	Mar 15 01:32
Balrog_	I hear that this new strategy (getting former insurgents to provide security) is somewhat working	Mar 15 01:32
oiaohm	That strategy is same used in east timor Balrog_	Mar 15 01:33
balzac	if by “working” you mean, people are still dying violently every day, then yes.	Mar 15 01:34
oiaohm	balzac our soliders have trained for years with 1 team being insurgency and another being a city protector.	Mar 15 01:34
balzac	there is a very basic thing to take into account	Mar 15 01:34
oiaohm	They got as insane as hiding in engine compartments of trucks to sneak in.	Mar 15 01:34
balzac	don’t put armed men of a non-native ethnicity in land belonging to another ethnicity for any significant length of time nor for any petty reason	Mar 15 01:34
balzac	oiaohm: don’t sniff glue my friend	Mar 15 01:35
oiaohm	balzac training here has been way different.	Mar 15 01:35
balzac	doesn’t matter	Mar 15 01:35
oiaohm	It does matter balzac	Mar 15 01:35
oiaohm	Soliders not trained correctly end up dead lot more often.	Mar 15 01:36
balzac	actually, australia needs to change their tune on how the gov relates to native australians	Mar 15 01:36
oiaohm	Also end up fueling a insergency problem.	Mar 15 01:36
balzac	same as the us, natives sovereignty needs to be acknowledged	Mar 15 01:36
oiaohm	Because each one they kill backs up that the insergency is working.	Mar 15 01:36
balzac	oiaohm: you’re thinking about how to make an ethnically-hostile military occupation work?	Mar 15 01:37
balzac	why?	Mar 15 01:37
oiaohm	Simple fact balzac Australia is huge if invaided our forcus will have to turn insurgency.	Mar 15 01:38
oiaohm	Its the old case send a theif to catch a theif.	Mar 15 01:39
oiaohm	They know how they would do so they cover that.	Mar 15 01:39
oiaohm	Problem is even importing there near by countries don’t stop ethnically-hostile happening.	Mar 15 01:40
oiaohm	Its not like everyone in east timor liked the Australian forces.	Mar 15 01:40
balzac	I can see being involved in an insurgency against an occupying force, or a frontal-attack on another force, but I sure wouldn’t want to be involved in putting down an insurgency.	Mar 15 01:42
oiaohm	Australia has a few times balzac in our own area.	Mar 15 01:42
balzac	It doesn’t seem like the the occupation of a foreign land is ever right.	Mar 15 01:42
schestowitz	Obama appointee on leave after FBI raid, arrests < http://www.wtop.com/?nid=596&a… >	Mar 15 01:42
oiaohm	USA has major tatical errors for doing it balzac	Mar 15 01:42
balzac	anyway, I’ve been working at a snails pace	Mar 15 01:42
balzac	too much interesting conversation	Mar 15 01:43
oiaohm	They try putting up an appearance of force.	Mar 15 01:43
balzac	oiaohm: the big mistake was occupying Iraq in the first place.	Mar 15 01:43
oiaohm	That is like putting up a huge target sign.	Mar 15 01:43
balzac	I was against it before it began. Now I want to see Bush go to prison for life.	Mar 15 01:43
oiaohm	To fight insurgency you want your forces as invisable as possiable.	Mar 15 01:43
oiaohm	So the insurgence walks into traps not you walking into insurgent traps.	Mar 15 01:44
balzac	I don’t intend to be fighting any insurgencies.	Mar 15 01:44
oiaohm	Being invisable as possiable reduces the fight.	Mar 15 01:44
oiaohm	Part of being invisable is training locals to replace you and to provide groups to blend in with.	Mar 15 01:45
balzac	yeah, like the lone ranger with his trusty side-kick, tanto	Mar 15 01:46
oiaohm	USA soliders from the get go. Got everything wrong in iraq.	Mar 15 01:46
balzac	oiaohm: you need to stop thinking of this drivel	Mar 15 01:46
balzac	go to a strip club, find a good ‘sheila’	Mar 15 01:46
balzac	you’re obviously caught in an un-fruitful line of thinking	Mar 15 01:46
balzac	i’m going into NYC to get high and maybe have a lapdance or two	Mar 15 01:47
oiaohm	USA had the idea that a big show of force would just give them victory.	Mar 15 01:47
_Hicham_	oiaohm : USA is wrong	Mar 15 01:47
oiaohm	If they had studied smaller scalle version Australia had taken on before iraq they would have know that is wrong.	Mar 15 01:47
_Hicham_	it is just like Vietnam	Mar 15 01:48
balzac	oiaohm, _Hicham_, let me remind you that I am American, and I was against Bush from the start. I wanted him impeached immediately.	Mar 15 01:48
oiaohm	Just like Vietnam really. Australian had 1 major battle with the natives then mostly got left alone.	Mar 15 01:48
balzac	so you can say this or that about Bush, or the Pentagon, or the US Gov, but the USA as a whole is not subject to the judgement which befalls the entities I mentioned first.	Mar 15 01:49
oiaohm	USA soliders have been since the time of Vietnam soft picking.	Mar 15 01:49
oiaohm	Purely due to there training.	Mar 15 01:49
balzac	anyway, your last prime minister or president was quite a tool	Mar 15 01:50
balzac	a bloviating buffoon if I ever saw one.	Mar 15 01:50
_Hicham_	i cant imagine the amount of money they spent	Mar 15 01:50
oiaohm	Prime minster we are not past political idiots	Mar 15 01:50
balzac	oiaohm: I’m not responsible for training US soldiers	Mar 15 01:50
balzac	it’s not really a problem of mine to worry about	Mar 15 01:50
oiaohm	Becides Iraq war all our ships have come home more heavly loaded with gear than when they left to iraq.	Mar 15 01:51
balzac	but you maybe should be concerned with entertaining yourself in such a way as to forget war-games and American military catastrophes	Mar 15 01:51
balzac	it’s saturday and i’m about to go out	Mar 15 01:51
oiaohm	Ie Australia did not go into the iraq war for nothing.	Mar 15 01:52
balzac	oiaohm: try some shrooms	Mar 15 01:52
balzac	that might help with what ails you	Mar 15 01:52
balzac	and a nice ‘sheila’	Mar 15 01:52
_Hicham_	balzac : have a fun night	Mar 15 01:52
balzac	suppose you go up to a woman in australia and call her “sheila”.	Mar 15 01:52
oiaohm	balzac if you have a true cilval war in you country your soliders are really not setup for it.	Mar 15 01:52
balzac	who would she take that?	Mar 15 01:53
balzac	_Hicham_: you to	Mar 15 01:53
balzac	oiaohm: really, i’m not the least bit worried about that.	Mar 15 01:53
balzac	ttyl	Mar 15 01:53
oiaohm	USA also copies old stupidity. The money paying people for entering there houses. Same thing was done in another country and it started a mafa.	Mar 15 01:54
balzac	oiaohm: check out a band called Pendulum from Australia	Mar 15 01:57
balzac	“Pendulum” – intense rock & roll mixed with DnB	Mar 15 01:57
balzac	if you can catch them live, get high on shrooms at the performance	Mar 15 01:58
balzac	thank me later	Mar 15 01:58
balzac	ttyl	Mar 15 01:58
oiaohm	I should have also point out one of the reasons USA soliders are so useless at times is they are in field high on drugs.	Mar 15 01:59
*amarsh04__ is now known as amarsh04		Mar 15 02:00
oiaohm	Being kept away by stimulants increase your risk of shooting someone you should not. Also causes problems.	Mar 15 02:01
oiaohm	Something USA people don’t want to hear is that there forces are useless. They have become very much like the britsh in world war two. Too much time spent believing in force not stratgic planing.	Mar 15 02:02
schestowitz	Diebold joke (cartoon): http://ars.userfriendly.org/c…	Mar 15 02:03
schestowitz	New Open Source Project Monitors Flows of Media < http://www.bespacific.com/m… >	Mar 15 02:03
schestowitz	gn	Mar 15 02:04
oiaohm	http://www.tomshardware.com/pictur… $16000 dollar computer system what it gets you.	Mar 15 02:17
twitter	hello	Mar 15 02:26
twitter	NYT asks where the AIG bailout money went, besides bonuses.	Mar 15 02:27
twitter	http://www.nytimes.com/2009/0…	Mar 15 02:27
twitter	LOL Dibold, except the damage has been done already.	Mar 15 02:28
twitter	Eight years ago, talk about “stolen elections” seemed incredible, yet a substantial body of evidence has been discovered that all but makes the case beyond doubt.	Mar 15 02:30
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_Hicham_	I just installed iceweasel on Ubuntu	Mar 15 03:29
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_Hicham_	Roy : are u still here?	Mar 15 03:52
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amarsh04	don’t think he is, will reboot now	Mar 15 03:58
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_Hicham_	everybody is sleeping O:-)	Mar 15 04:08
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twitter	sleep, sleep.	Mar 15 04:14
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oiaohm	Hmm amarsh04_ you appear to be having connection problems.	Mar 15 07:02
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schestowitz	Hey	Mar 15 08:16
schestowitz	http://www.cnet.com/8301-13846_1-10196471-6… (Jim Cramer’s full explanation of stock market manipulation (video))	Mar 15 08:18
amarsh04	hi schestowitz, am setting a record on the slowest pc to write a dvd writh	Mar 15 08:28
oiaohm	255 mhz pent amarsh04?	Mar 15 08:51
oiaohm	Or are you smaller.	Mar 15 08:52
schestowitz	Whoa	Mar 15 08:52
schestowitz	Well, people did burn CDs on 486 33MHz…	Mar 15 08:52
oiaohm	Yes buffer underrun protection becomes important.	Mar 15 08:52
oiaohm	Cd x1 slower data speed schestowitz	Mar 15 08:53
oiaohm	You could do that on a 286.	Mar 15 08:53
oiaohm	Yes level 1 insanity burning a cd on a 286	Mar 15 08:53
oiaohm	In theory you could still burn a dvd with a 286	Mar 15 08:54
oiaohm	But you would be pushing buffer under run protection to its limit.	Mar 15 08:55
schestowitz	Make it RT	Mar 15 08:55
schestowitz	Heh. on 286s..	Mar 15 08:55
schestowitz	Anyway, CDs are being phased out… eventually.	Mar 15 08:55
schestowitz	Network speeds, SD, SSD, USB…..	Mar 15 08:56
amarsh04	266 PII	Mar 15 08:57
oiaohm	286 flat will not be able to transfer data fast enough schestowitz	Mar 15 08:57
oiaohm	Even running real time.	Mar 15 08:57
oiaohm	To burn a DVD at x1	Mar 15 08:57
oiaohm	Yes you will be pushing the drive under run protection.	Mar 15 08:58
oiaohm	255 mhz pent was used because I had no option it was the only machine still running amarsh04	Mar 15 08:58
amarsh04	disc is kept spinning, then actual burning is only done from on-drive buffer	Mar 15 08:58
amarsh04	all normal programs still running, too	Mar 15 08:59
oiaohm	255 mhz pent was a Linux firewall box.	Mar 15 08:59
oiaohm	I really hate when windows networks get badly virus infected.	Mar 15 08:59
oiaohm	And they only have dvd media on hand.	Mar 15 09:00
amarsh04	I ran a pentium 225 mmx for a little while with 192 MiB of EDO RAM	Mar 15 09:00
oiaohm	Still have one with that configuration.	Mar 15 09:00
oiaohm	I use to have a pent 75 before it gave up the ghost as well.	Mar 15 09:00
amarsh04	384 MiB of RAM in this machine	Mar 15 09:00
oiaohm	Insane would be dvd burning from a c64	Mar 15 09:02
oiaohm	Yes its possiable but completely insane.	Mar 15 09:02
amarsh04	one person I knew had a scsi hdd on his c64	Mar 15 09:02
oiaohm	Yep	Mar 15 09:02
oiaohm	scsi dvd burnner with scsi hdd	Mar 15 09:03
schestowitz	zoobab01: Do you know which troll they pass it to? http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/2009… (Burst.com sells patent for video technology)	Mar 15 09:03
oiaohm	Nice bit of stress	Mar 15 09:03
amarsh04	create the iso file and have a smart program do dma between two devices on the same bus	Mar 15 09:04
oiaohm	Yep the only way its going to work with a c64 amarsh04	Mar 15 09:04
oiaohm	And having everyone scratching there head how.	Mar 15 09:04
amarsh04	these patent robber barons give trolls a bad name	Mar 15 09:05
amarsh04	it’s a sign of good programming that things still work even if very slowly on underpowered hardwaer	Mar 15 09:06
oiaohm	Its sign of loop hole using.	Mar 15 09:07
oiaohm	Not always good programming. Some of the code from loop hole users is nasty.	Mar 15 09:07
amarsh04	dvd drive has written 650 MB in 80 minutes	Mar 15 09:07
oiaohm	Yep complete disk about 8 hours.	Mar 15 09:08
oiaohm	For some stupid reason it will verifty faster than it will burn the disk.	Mar 15 09:08
amarsh04	I mean that for example, time-out and underrun errors are generally avoided	Mar 15 09:09
amarsh04	verify is only reading source and destination and comparing rather than worrying about keeping the on-drive buffer as full as possible	Mar 15 09:10
schestowitz	Black fsck software, a company created by MS employee, keeps spreading FOSS FUD to sell its proprietary ‘solution’: http://www.linuxnewstoday.org/linux-news-…	Mar 15 09:10
oiaohm	There is a way to do a block to block verify in scsi amarsh04	Mar 15 09:12
oiaohm	Let them schestowitz	Mar 15 09:14
amarsh04	I do have a scsi disk in this machine but it’s only 4 GiB (DPT 2044W controller)	Mar 15 09:14
oiaohm	They are not winning the game long term by doing it.	Mar 15 09:14
*amarsh04 still has to send a request for source code to the version of busybox in his adsl2+ router		Mar 15 09:15
oiaohm	MS starting to burn there bridges to Novell show that MS is not as healthy a they would have everyone think.	Mar 15 09:15
oiaohm	What is your router amarsh04	Mar 15 09:15
oiaohm	Some have there source code published on line amarsh04	Mar 15 09:16
oiaohm	Hmm news is being slow schestowitz	Mar 15 09:17
amarsh04	opennetworks iconnect 625 – no source online or on cd, but emails from a company employee on busybox mailing list	Mar 15 09:17
amarsh04	will send the company copies of email with a written request, and cc software freedom law center	Mar 15 09:19
schestowitz	oiaohm: yes, the sooner the better	Mar 15 09:19
schestowitz	At least we know where we stand	Mar 15 09:19
schestowitz	oiaohm: which news is slow?	Mar 15 09:20
schestowitz	The news has been slow since last year (new in general, not just FOSS)	Mar 15 09:20
schestowitz	*news	Mar 15 09:20
oiaohm	For middle of this month there has been very few new products announcements.	Mar 15 09:21
schestowitz	For the past 6 months	Mar 15 09:27
schestowitz	Nothing time specific	Mar 15 09:27
schestowitz	More products are being canceled, I think (than announced)	Mar 15 09:27
oiaohm	Yep	Mar 15 09:29
oiaohm	We seam to be heading into a product drought.	Mar 15 09:29
oiaohm	Now that is going to leave znews and others almost nothing to talk about.	Mar 15 09:29
amarsh04	maybe we’ll see a reduction in planned obsolescence	Mar 15 09:30
oiaohm	There is one problem here devices don’t last for ever.	Mar 15 09:31
schestowitz	znews?	Mar 15 09:32
oiaohm	I missed a d	Mar 15 09:35
oiaohm	opps	Mar 15 09:35
oiaohm	zdnet	Mar 15 09:35
oiaohm	No news will basically be fud central.	Mar 15 09:36
amarsh04	that link to black duck software spouting off shows that the author didn’t bother to state that the problem is worse for closed source software than for Free and open source software	Mar 15 09:39
oiaohm	Open source has its problems.	Mar 15 09:40
oiaohm	So does windows. I am so sick of windows users say its numbers of them make them infected.	Mar 15 09:40
oiaohm	Lot of Windows problem are basic rules of secuirty broken.	Mar 15 09:41
schestowitz	oiaohm: exactly. See this discussion from last night (comments): http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/14/bbc…	Mar 15 09:42
schestowitz	http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/20… (I’m sorry but Dreamweaver is dying)	Mar 15 09:43
amarsh04	I might go out for a while and leave growisofs to finish its work	Mar 15 09:43
schestowitz	So suddenly people realise that shucks their s/w is closed and going nowhere	Mar 15 09:43
oiaohm	Dreamweaver has been a good product.	Mar 15 09:43
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schestowitz	.”ACT are pretty active advocates of all that makes FOSS difficult or impossible, so it’s amazing to see them calling IBM’s bluff over open source and FOSS advocates defending them. Now Microsoft has the same strategy as IBM maybe it’s time to reconsider who are friends and who are just here to drink the free beer?” ttp://blogs.sun.com/webmink/entry/friday_link_roundup_on_march	Mar 15 09:45
oiaohm	Sun IBM mud throwing.	Mar 15 09:48
oiaohm	It will never end any time soon.	Mar 15 09:48
schestowitz	Cisco expected to present servers Monday http://www.topix.net/content/ap/200…	Mar 15 09:50
oiaohm	Cisco should be smart enought be a new entry to the blade market a live.	Mar 15 09:52
oiaohm	It will shake IBM and HP up a bit.	Mar 15 09:52
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php?t… I no longer edit that page. It’s too abrasive.	Mar 15 10:05
schestowitz	Later this year I intend to process the remainder of Comes < http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/inde… > and then establish some form of mapping of influence so as to help people understand how names and tactics/companies relate to one another (e.g. Microsoft->IV, EDGI->Waggener, VMware->IDC). I don’t know how to visualise it and properly connect this with evidence. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index…	Mar 15 10:05
schestowitz	tch is decent.	Mar 15 10:05
schestowitz	http://www.sourcewatch.org/i… that is	Mar 15 10:06
schestowitz	Someone says: “There must be others who have documented their receiving attacks. Again, it’s worth trying for an Ask Slashdot, since Bruce Perens shutdown Technocrat — (after going off the deep end and using it as a forum to promote inappropriate social agendas, IMHO, that’s what killed it.)”	Mar 15 10:06
schestowitz	“Many have from time to time brought up going after MS for racketeering. However, much of it only amounts to only brief mumbling and grumbling. How would a class-action style effort be started? RICO and other laws are on the books in the US.”	Mar 15 10:06
schestowitz	“The situation, as posted in my previous blog post, explaining Why the US ecomony has failed, is now playing out deeping, as I watch C-SPAN.” http://webhostedservices.com/blog/?p=52	Mar 15 10:12
schestowitz	Microsoft shills… “”Formally btw. Mike Sax is said to be the president and founder of ACT but the chain of command is clear. I have an interesting video of a Mike Sax intervention somewhere. Back then I had the impression that he wasn’t even a software developer because of the way he talked.””	Mar 15 10:22
schestowitz	“I always had the impression Sax software was just a fake company set up for the US antitrust case. Sax software formally sells some VB Controls. I don’t know where it is but I have seen a video of Zuck from some open document debate in the States hearing where he says he is no lobbyist.”	Mar 15 10:23
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009…	Mar 15 10:23
MinceR	geekings	Mar 15 10:27
schestowitz	http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2… “The wife and I are celebrating the anniversary of Linux, by watching “RevolutionOS”, streaming from Netflix to our TiVo.”	Mar 15 10:33
trmanco	http://blog.ibeentoubuntu.com/2009/03/w3…	Mar 15 10:37
amarsh04	I still haven’t seen “RevolutionOS”	Mar 15 10:39
oiaohm	http://www.w3schools.com/brow… Fairly much slow but steddy grouth.	Mar 15 10:39
trmanco	FF is beating the crap out of IE	Mar 15 10:40
trmanco	http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/b…	Mar 15 10:40
trmanco	has about 3% more	Mar 15 10:41
schestowitz	Intro to V4L2 “This articles describes the Linux’s V4L2 (Video for Linux 2) interface, along with the first steps toward developing a device driver that uses the interface. It is based on Linux 2.6.28, and may not apply to other kernel versions.” http://linuxdevices.com/articles/…	Mar 15 10:42
schestowitz	amarsh04: you can watch it on Google Video	Mar 15 10:42
trmanco	http://singularity.com/images/…	Mar 15 10:42
trmanco	human brain powered by Linux	Mar 15 10:42
trmanco	?	Mar 15 10:42
amarsh04	ok thanks schestowitz	Mar 15 10:43
schestowitz	10 Extreme Biases You Must Aquire When Switching to Linux < http://www.network0.org/2009…/ >	Mar 15 10:47
oiaohm	That super computer model is kinda flawed.	Mar 15 10:48
oiaohm	Human brain is compact compared to super computers. That does make a difference.	Mar 15 10:49
schestowitz	It works differently.	Mar 15 10:49
schestowitz	Think about comparing human metabolism to a car engine.	Mar 15 10:50
schestowitz	Localised versus networked	Mar 15 10:50
schestowitz	It would be funny if our brain has some little MMU at the centre.. with fans and all	Mar 15 10:51
schestowitz	Cool. The OSI blog links to BN	Mar 15 10:51
oiaohm	Human brain liquid cooling.	Mar 15 10:52
oiaohm	None of that primitive air stuff.	Mar 15 10:52
oiaohm	Boy I don’t fit into those 10 biases at all.	Mar 15 10:56
oiaohm	I use BSD debian and redhat.	Mar 15 10:56
schestowitz	http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/03/13/nov… “I dont worry about Novell distributing as much as them infecting Gnome through their heavy use of mono which is now an integral part of applications like Evolution.”	Mar 15 11:09
schestowitz	“All of Novell’s excemptions dont apply to other other developers/distros so in a way, when Microsoft comes bearing down on the stolen IP in Mono, and they will, it wont be because of the code Novell developers will have contributed it but the ones who are not covered by the patent.”	Mar 15 11:09
Eruaran	I think Gnome’s future is not rosy if left to the likes of Novell and Miguel de Icaza’s “We love Redmond” fan club.	Mar 15 11:11
Eruaran	Developers and distributions need to make a clear stand.	Mar 15 11:12
Eruaran	But I haven’t seen that from Gnome devs.	Mar 15 11:12
schestowitz	The Linux 1.0 message: http://www.tuxradar.com/content/li…	Mar 15 11:14
schestowitz	A Real Stimulus: Use Open Source Software < http://brgulker.wordpress.com/2009/03/12… >	Mar 15 11:17
amarsh04	4 hours down, one hour to go in burning a dvd	Mar 15 11:49
schestowitz	Hehe.	Mar 15 11:55
schestowitz	Imagine using the same storage with old Iomega tapes	Mar 15 11:56
amarsh04	or floppies	Mar 15 12:02
oiaohm	I do have a auto floppy loader and unloader around here somewhere.	Mar 15 12:06
amarsh04	verifying dvd now…	Mar 15 12:10
amarsh04	system load has gone way down… growisofs was running nice -20	Mar 15 12:11
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amarsh04	k3b just let out its success bugling	Mar 15 12:28
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Eruaran	I changed K3B’s ‘success’ sound to the ping of an oven timer.	Mar 15 12:36
amarsh04	hehehe Eruaran	Mar 15 12:39
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schestowitz	Wot?? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File…	Mar 15 12:59
schestowitz	Isn’t that polluting the seas? Putting green dye in rivers?	Mar 15 12:59
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oiaohm	Could be natural schestowitz	Mar 15 13:13
oiaohm	Ie harmless dye to water ways. Same used in sea rescues.	Mar 15 13:14
oiaohm	If its that one it breaks down in 24 hours.	Mar 15 13:14
Eruaran	Food colouring	Mar 15 13:15
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oiaohm	There are still side effects to what they are doing. It blocks light from going down through the water very much like a flood.	Mar 15 13:19