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04.06.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 5th, 2009 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 12:54 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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DaemonFC Everything Microsoft has done with Windows has been counterfeit Mac Apr 05 09:57
DaemonFC why not counterfeit PS3 and iPod? Apr 05 09:57
schestowitz Done. Apr 05 09:57
schestowitz Poorly Apr 05 09:57
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 05 09:57
schestowitz Reporter’s notebook: Sundown for Sun? < http://www.infoworld.com/d/applicati… > Apr 05 09:57
DaemonFC I won’t be sorry to see Sun go Apr 05 09:58
DaemonFC maybe IBM will even license ZFS underl GPL license or something Apr 05 09:58
DaemonFC would be nice Apr 05 09:58
schestowitz Microsoft is going titsup too Apr 05 09:58
DaemonFC doubt it Apr 05 09:58
schestowitz Even Allen’s company. http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/… Apr 05 09:58
schestowitz http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03… Apr 05 09:59
DaemonFC they could burn through cash for 20 years and still be around Apr 05 09:59
schestowitz Even Dvorak slams Microsoft’s prospects now. http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Sto… http://www.pcmag.com/article2/… Apr 05 09:59
DaemonFC that’s if they wren’t making any money Apr 05 09:59
schestowitz DaemonFC: Microsoft can’t buirn cash Apr 05 10:00
schestowitz It’s pretty much in debt (or almost there) Apr 05 10:00
schestowitz Microsoft allows HP to wipe Windows 7 with XP through 2010 < http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09… > Apr 05 10:00
DaemonFC Android can’t be a bad thing Apr 05 10:00
DaemonFC it’s pretty much all GPL’d Apr 05 10:00
schestowitz They just try to get cheap labour now: http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflas… Apr 05 10:00
DaemonFC I fail to see how it’s any worse than any other Linux distro Apr 05 10:00
oiaohm It will be sad to see sun go. Apr 05 10:00
schestowitz Microsoft sells a ‘kidney’ for cash: http://hamptonroads.com/2009/04/landma… Apr 05 10:01
DaemonFC oiaohm: Why? Apr 05 10:01
schestowitz SPARC Apr 05 10:01
DaemonFC To see a GPL-hostile company bought by one of the top 5 Linux contributers? Apr 05 10:01
DaemonFC how can that possibly be worse? Apr 05 10:01
oiaohm Sun has always been a company who always had fatures ahead of the time. Apr 05 10:01
schestowitz Nintendo, Microsoft at bottom of Greenpeace guide < http://www.examiner.com/x-3707-LA-Gaming… > Apr 05 10:01
DaemonFC most of Sun’s software is slow, bloated, and functionally obsolete Apr 05 10:02
DaemonFC ZFS is really the only thing on Solaris that’s worth anything Apr 05 10:02
oiaohm These days yes DaemonFC Apr 05 10:02
oiaohm Container tech is solarias. Apr 05 10:02
DaemonFC Linux is getting containers Apr 05 10:03
oiaohm How long has sun had them. Apr 05 10:03
DaemonFC and blows Solaris out of the water Apr 05 10:03
DaemonFC even on JAVA benchmarks Apr 05 10:03
oiaohm Its like ZFS Apr 05 10:03
oiaohm ZFS most likely will not be around long term but is has sporned better designs in filesystems. Apr 05 10:03
DaemonFC There’s 10 reasons to go Linux for every reason to go Solaris Apr 05 10:03
oiaohm Sun has alway brought new features into the IT world. Apr 05 10:04
oiaohm Ok at first not perfect. Apr 05 10:04
DaemonFC I really see BtrFS as too bloated and top heavy for a desktop system Apr 05 10:04
DaemonFC but maybe if you need geewhizbang features Apr 05 10:04
oiaohm Heck even MS networking protocal for filesharing started life at microsoft. Apr 05 10:04
oiaohm BtrFS snapshotting feature is useful for the careless. Apr 05 10:04
oiaohm NOt SMB protocal that MS network is based on is from SUN. Apr 05 10:05
oiaohm Lot of key events in computer history would not have happened when they did without SUN. Apr 05 10:06
oiaohm I am going to miss that hopefully another company takes there place. Apr 05 10:06
DaemonFC The UNIX Haters Handbook had a whole chapter on NFS Apr 05 10:07
DaemonFC they called it Nightmare File System Apr 05 10:07
DaemonFC a lot of what the UNIX Haters Handbook complained about in 1994 is still valid with regards to modern UNIX and UNIX clones Apr 05 10:08
oiaohm Most large Linux setups don’t use it. Apr 05 10:10
DaemonFC they mentioned how different UNIX systems were so incompatible that companies would often just choose DOS or Windows, horrible as they were, because they were consistent Apr 05 10:10
oiaohm Yes writen pre 2001 posix agreement of course. Apr 05 10:11
DaemonFC they gave one example about how the company the guy worked for had a test program that he was trying to compile and run on different UNIX systems, and he got to XENIX and it wouldn’t even compile Apr 05 10:11
DaemonFC cause there was a bug in the compiler Apr 05 10:11
oiaohm You do know that Linux System Calls are the offical standard for cross platform Unix binaries. Apr 05 10:11
DaemonFC there are no standards in software Apr 05 10:12
oiaohm So it is possiable to release a single binary that runs on everything Linux BSD and Unix. Apr 05 10:12
DaemonFC there are specifications that are often implemented incorrectly Apr 05 10:12
DaemonFC or have room for interpretation Apr 05 10:12
oiaohm Not this case. Apr 05 10:12
DaemonFC that doesn’t mean there is a standard Apr 05 10:12
oiaohm So registering with ISO does not count. Apr 05 10:13
DaemonFC BSD has to have an emulator for Linux system calls Apr 05 10:13
oiaohm BSD has to other wise its not Unix class. Apr 05 10:13
DaemonFC if you don’t have that, a lot of Linux stuff won’t run, unmodified Apr 05 10:13
DaemonFC Linux does a lot of non-standard things Apr 05 10:13
DaemonFC and other systems have to mimic the incorrect behaviors of Linux Apr 05 10:14
oiaohm Do you know why Linux got the standard. Apr 05 10:14
oiaohm Not some other Unix. Apr 05 10:14
DaemonFC Linux is not a standard Apr 05 10:14
oiaohm Simple fact even that Linux system calls might do strange things they are constant. Apr 05 10:14
oiaohm About it. Apr 05 10:14
DaemonFC Anyone who says standard and software in the same sentence is smoking crack Apr 05 10:14
oiaohm Ever since the system call was added to the Linux kernel. Apr 05 10:15
oiaohm Other Unix system calls have altered over time what they do. Apr 05 10:15
DaemonFC Linux makes a poor system to try and standardize Apr 05 10:15
oiaohm No it does not. Apr 05 10:15
DaemonFC because every thing abotu Linux defies standardization Apr 05 10:15
oiaohm syscalls don’t. Apr 05 10:16
DaemonFC Linux is nothing more than a kernel with a pile of add ons Apr 05 10:16
DaemonFC FreeBSD makes a much better system Apr 05 10:16
oiaohm FreeBSD over time has changed there syscalls. Apr 05 10:16
DaemonFC in FreeBSD, everything is developed there Apr 05 10:16
oiaohm So breaking binary compadible. Apr 05 10:16
DaemonFC it’s all coherent Apr 05 10:16
DaemonFC Linux is jsut a patchwork Apr 05 10:16
DaemonFC you can have wildly incompatible implementations Apr 05 10:17
oiaohm Not in syscalls. Apr 05 10:17
oiaohm Its a section of Linux that has always been costant. Apr 05 10:17
oiaohm Ok internals of Linux chaos central. Apr 05 10:17
oiaohm But the interfaces to userspace have stayed costant. Apr 05 10:18
DaemonFC like I said, Linux makes a poor system to expect standard behavior out of Apr 05 10:18
oiaohm Depends. Apr 05 10:18
DaemonFC because there is really no standard behavior Apr 05 10:18
oiaohm Do you want userspace binaries to run. Apr 05 10:18
DaemonFC unless you want to statically link to your own copy of everything Apr 05 10:19
oiaohm If so Linux is perfectly fine. Apr 05 10:19
DaemonFC otherwise the only software you know wil lrun is from your distribution’s repo Apr 05 10:19
oiaohm Linux also support each application having its own dynamic loader. Apr 05 10:19
oiaohm So no you don’t have to static link everything. Apr 05 10:19
DaemonFC It’s what id software does Apr 05 10:19
DaemonFC it’s what Opera does Apr 05 10:19
DaemonFC it’s what every program that has to work between distros does Apr 05 10:20
DaemonFC cause it’s the only way to make it work Apr 05 10:20
oiaohm LOL Apr 05 10:20
oiaohm Not every program. Apr 05 10:20
DaemonFC Linux is insane, it is not even compatible with Linux Apr 05 10:20
oiaohm There are many appache servers with PHP. Apr 05 10:20
oiaohm for custom webapplications that use own dynamic loader. Apr 05 10:20
DaemonFC It’s why most proprietary software avoids Linux, because they can’t recompile it 100 times for every distro Apr 05 10:21
oiaohm Can you document a case of Linux kernel not compadible with Linux Kernel. Apr 05 10:21
DaemonFC then maintain the versions every time the distro upgrades Apr 05 10:21
oiaohm Its the path they choose. Apr 05 10:21
oiaohm They choose to get themselfs mixed up in the distribution mess. Apr 05 10:22
oiaohm There is no such requirement that they have to. Apr 05 10:22
DaemonFC well, lots of times there’s no free software that is really good enough for what you want to do with it Apr 05 10:22
oiaohm Mostly because people like you DaemonFC spread the myth that there is no option to dynamic link. Apr 05 10:22
DaemonFC there’s no professional grade video/audio editing software for Linux, Gimp is alright but it’s no photoshop Apr 05 10:22
DaemonFC People agree with what I said or else there wouldn’t be Wine and Crossover Apr 05 10:23
DaemonFC saying “We run Photoshop!!!” Apr 05 10:23
oiaohm Ok tell me why you would run professional grade video/audio or picture editing on unstable grapical system like X11. Apr 05 10:24
DaemonFC if you want it to run, you will statically link, and even that isn’t a guarantee Apr 05 10:24
DaemonFC you can still hit bugs that are in say Ubuntu, but not Fedora Apr 05 10:24
Eruaran Cinelerra Apr 05 10:25
Eruaran Ardour Apr 05 10:25
DaemonFC Enemy Territory: Quake Wars runs fine on Ubuntu, but hits Pulseaudio bugs in Fedora Apr 05 10:25
DaemonFC you have to remove Pulseaudio in Fedora to get it to where the sound works right Apr 05 10:25
DaemonFC but then Adobe Flash on Linux can’t access your microphone Apr 05 10:25
DaemonFC so you can’t use Ustream Apr 05 10:25
Eruaran Pulseaudio should be renamed to “WhatTheHellWereWeThinking” Apr 05 10:25
DaemonFC or perhaps I should get an analog microphone even though my $70 webcam has one Apr 05 10:26
DaemonFC because of Linux bugs interfering with Flash Apr 05 10:26
DaemonFC Adobe says they’re working on it, so we’ll see Apr 05 10:27
Eruaran Pulseaudio is not running on my system Apr 05 10:27
DaemonFC I’ve got the newest Pulseaudio Apr 05 10:28
DaemonFC it’s not giving me troubles Apr 05 10:28
DaemonFC the one that comes with Ubuntu Jaunty is hell on wheels though Apr 05 10:28
DaemonFC B-) Apr 05 10:28
Eruaran Kubuntu doesn’t come with Pulseaudio installed Apr 05 10:29
DaemonFC I may as well just fork Ubuntu and distribute something that makes sense Apr 05 10:29
DaemonFC but I can’t afford to pay the LSB mafia people Apr 05 10:29
DaemonFC so I’m screwed Apr 05 10:30
DaemonFC right oiaohm? Apr 05 10:30
Eruaran pay ? Apr 05 10:30
DaemonFC yeah, LSB is a payola system Apr 05 10:30
DaemonFC Eruaran: Kubuntu has Pulseaudio Apr 05 10:31
DaemonFC Xubuntu doesn’t Apr 05 10:31
Eruaran I’m using Kubuntu 9.04 beta1 Apr 05 10:31
DaemonFC no, you’re on the daily build Apr 05 10:32
DaemonFC apt will upgrade you to the snapshot day by day Apr 05 10:32
Eruaran It has libpulse0 and nothing else Apr 05 10:32
DaemonFC yeah, but without Pulseaudio, you’re left with shitty audio support that belongs in 1995 Apr 05 10:33
Eruaran I’m happy with the way my system is working Apr 05 10:34
DaemonFC yeah, try using a microphone Apr 05 10:34
DaemonFC or multiple sound streams Apr 05 10:34
DaemonFC ALSA just can’t handle anything you’d expect in a modern system Apr 05 10:35
DaemonFC without Pulse Apr 05 10:35
DaemonFC before Pulse, Linux audio was a clusterfuck where programs would conflict with each other if they tried to access the sound card at the same time Apr 05 10:36
DaemonFC it was fairly awful Apr 05 10:36
Eruaran Ardour works fine Apr 05 10:36
DaemonFC KDE has Phonon which alleviates some of that Apr 05 10:36
Eruaran I really don’t need someone else to tell me what my requirements are or that I cant do what I’m already doing… Apr 05 10:38
Eruaran Ardour uses jack Apr 05 10:38
MinceR DaemonFC: try alsa and dmix. :> Apr 05 10:38
DaemonFC then build your own system Apr 05 10:38
DaemonFC Linux From Scratch maybe? Apr 05 10:39
oiaohm DaemonFC If bugs in Ubuntu and Fedora caused stuff not to work I would not be able to use intergrated systems using openvz Apr 05 10:39
oiaohm Ie massive numbers of distributions stacked onto 1 kernel. Apr 05 10:39
DaemonFC no matter what distro you use, they all have bugs and quirks, and oddities Apr 05 10:39
DaemonFC that don’t happen anywhere else Apr 05 10:39
oiaohm pulseaudio itself is  troubles. Apr 05 10:39
Eruaran That applies to all operating systems. Apr 05 10:39
oiaohm DaemonFC: you have to be aware its nothing strange for me to have 12 different distributions running on 1 Linux kernel. Apr 05 10:40
oiaohm Without having to alter any of them. Apr 05 10:40
oiaohm Other than removing pulseaudio. Apr 05 10:40
oiaohm That is quite minor incompadiblely really. Apr 05 10:40
DaemonFC https://launchpad.net/~themuso… Apr 05 10:41
oiaohm You ar trying to argue there is large incompadiblity there when there is not. Apr 05 10:41
DaemonFC you’re talking about lobotomizing Linux audio back to the point where it’s about as capable as Windows 3.1 Apr 05 10:42
DaemonFC even Windows 95 handled multiple streams better than Linux can without a sound server like Pulse Apr 05 10:42
oiaohm Because it need to be cut off because pulseaudio design is crap. Apr 05 10:42
oiaohm dmix supports multiable streams. Apr 05 10:43
oiaohm Only major difference between dmix and pulseaudio is per application volume control. Apr 05 10:43
DaemonFC I’m not saying that Pulseaudio is not a buggy pile of shit Apr 05 10:43
Eruaran If you’re really interested in pro-audio then you want good hardware for it and for it to simply be supported under Linux Apr 05 10:43
DaemonFC I’m saying Linux is even worse without it Apr 05 10:43
oiaohm Jack is the sound server for pro audio work. Apr 05 10:43
Eruaran From the Ardour site: Apr 05 10:44
Eruaran “For high-end use, the RME Hammerfall series and the M-Audio Delta series are both recommended choices. These devices are well-supported under Linux” Apr 05 10:44
oiaohm Pulseaudio is a poorly designed to be userfriendly. Apr 05 10:44
oiaohm Major feature addes of Pulseaudio is network sound and per application volume control. Apr 05 10:44
oiaohm But that is really not worth the extream instablity pulseaudio gives. Apr 05 10:45
oiaohm Pulseaudio should sit on the edges for a few more years until they get the major bugs out. Apr 05 10:45
oiaohm Ubuntu mostly added Pulseaudio so they could have the feature of vista of per application volume control. Apr 05 10:47
oiaohm Is per application volume control worth the instablity DaemonFC. Apr 05 10:47
DaemonFC it’s not just that Apr 05 10:47
*Eruaran (n=quassel@183.110.208.203.cable.dyn.gex.ncable.com.au) has left #boycottnovell (“http://quassel-irc.org – Chat comfortably. Anywhere.”) Apr 05 10:47
oiaohm That is all Pulseaudio really offer. Apr 05 10:47
DaemonFC Pulseaudio is the only thing that can properly route sound streams to the proper device Apr 05 10:48
oiaohm Compared to its competor interface gstreamer. Apr 05 10:48
DaemonFC if I wanted a stupid audio system from 1995, I’d use Debian Apr 05 10:48
oiaohm That does not run a sound server at all. Apr 05 10:48
oiaohm If your applications need the support of the features Pulseaudio offers you are better to use gstreamer to get them. Apr 05 10:49
DaemonFC the best thing to do is use the latest Pulseaudio Apr 05 10:49
oiaohm Other than per application volume control. Apr 05 10:49
DaemonFC Pulseaudio fixes so many problems Apr 05 10:49
oiaohm So does gstreamer. Apr 05 10:49
DaemonFC removing it lobotomizes the audio stack Apr 05 10:49
oiaohm Have you ever bother comparing them. Apr 05 10:49
DaemonFC Without it, I’d rather install and use Windows 95 Apr 05 10:50
DaemonFC as far as audio capability Apr 05 10:50
oiaohm gstreamer low lagacy audio that will truely happen. Apr 05 10:50
oiaohm No need for audio to go through two process streams to get out. Apr 05 10:50
oiaohm So you can give application real time performance settings and it works. Apr 05 10:51
oiaohm Compared to pulseaudio where server and application are fighting for cpu time. Apr 05 10:51
oiaohm Basically it don’t work. Apr 05 10:51
oiaohm Even jack has its limitations. Apr 05 10:51
oiaohm Main reason for jack existance is to work as a patch table between applications. Apr 05 10:52
oiaohm Sound server doing that job can work. Apr 05 10:52
oiaohm High grade audio you want the least ammount of crap between you and the sound card. Apr 05 10:52
oiaohm You don’t want prep work for network sending done if you are not network sending.  You don’t want extra mixing.  Lot of features pulse is adding stuffed any chance of well performing audio out. Apr 05 10:53
oiaohm Pulseaudio is nothing more than middle ground tech that is not really needed. Apr 05 10:54
oiaohm It has the same error that has fucked X11 for years. Apr 05 10:55
oiaohm Are you that foolish that you cannot see it DaemonFC Apr 05 10:55
DaemonFC Every distribution is including Pulseaudio Apr 05 10:56
oiaohm How to bring old style X11 to its kness.   Give X11 low cpu access piority and applications high. Apr 05 10:56
DaemonFC because it’s better than having apps fighting each other for the sound system Apr 05 10:56
DaemonFC and simply crashing Apr 05 10:56
oiaohm Not every distribution activates it stuplidy by default. Apr 05 10:56
oiaohm Dmix sorts out applications fighting for sound. Apr 05 10:56
DaemonFC You’re right, there are distros like Debian that don’t know how to access my headset Apr 05 10:57
oiaohm Only distributions that remove dmix like ubuntu have problems with pulseaudio removed. Apr 05 10:57
DaemonFC then when I get it working, route half the audio to my sound card anyway Apr 05 10:57
oiaohm Its a caused problem. Apr 05 10:57
oiaohm Pulseaudio it a sitting duck. Apr 05 10:58
oiaohm Its design makes it such. Apr 05 10:58
oiaohm Removing it and forcing people to go back to the drawing board and come up with a design that could work will have to happen at some point. Apr 05 10:59
schestowitz DaemonFC: funny that you say nothing about Vista and Vista7′s bad audio stack Apr 05 11:01
schestowitz DRM rendered it junk. Apr 05 11:01
DaemonFC Vista’s audio stack is preferable to Linux with no Pulseaudio Apr 05 11:03
DaemonFC Linux with no Pulseaudio no worky Apr 05 11:03
DaemonFC either that or you have to stand on your head to get it to do simple tasks Apr 05 11:03
DaemonFC like using the headset Apr 05 11:04
schestowitz Works for me Apr 05 11:04
schestowitz You must be using something archaic Apr 05 11:04
DaemonFC even Vista can use the headset without me screwing around with asoundconf set-default-card, editing three configuration files, and logging out and back in Apr 05 11:04
DaemonFC then reversing that to get my sound card to work again Apr 05 11:05
DaemonFC Pulseaudio is smart enough to see that I have the headset plugged in and switch to that Apr 05 11:05
DaemonFC gee, wow, a sound system that belongs in the 21st century Apr 05 11:05
DaemonFC how nice! Apr 05 11:05
DaemonFC but if you prefer a sound system from 1995, by all means, it’s your system Apr 05 11:06
oiaohm Simple point here do you want another X11 fuck up DaemonFC Apr 05 11:07
DaemonFC how is my X server fucked up? Apr 05 11:07
DaemonFC do tell Apr 05 11:07
oiaohm X11 design of DRI 1 Apr 05 11:07
oiaohm Is completely screwed up. Apr 05 11:08
oiaohm Pulseaudio is basically audio replication of it. Apr 05 11:08
DaemonFC I’d rather deal with Pulseaudio bugs than ALSA without Pulseaudio Apr 05 11:08
DaemonFC which is pure dogshit Apr 05 11:08
MinceR ubuntu removes dmix? strange, mine didn’t. Apr 05 11:08
oiaohm Not all audio cards need dmix MinceR Apr 05 11:08
MinceR i’m pretty sure intel hda does Apr 05 11:08
MinceR since it doesn’t work with some games using OSS like Unreal Tournament. Apr 05 11:09
DaemonFC ryan@ryan-desktop:~$ lsmod |grep hda_intel Apr 05 11:09
DaemonFC snd_hda_intel          29384  2 Apr 05 11:09
oiaohm DRI 1 major design flaw. Apr 05 11:09
DaemonFC oh gee Apr 05 11:09
oiaohm Is that everything has to go through X11 server. Apr 05 11:09
oiaohm Even if X11 server alterations are not required. Apr 05 11:10
MinceR and so does the AudioTrak Prodigy 7.1 HiFi Apr 05 11:10
DaemonFC yeah, though if you have $100 to give me, I’ll go out and buy a card with proper hardware mixing Apr 05 11:10
oiaohm DRI 1 Apr 05 11:10
DaemonFC :) Apr 05 11:10
oiaohm suxs because of it. Apr 05 11:10
MinceR DaemonFC: or you could just use dmix. Apr 05 11:10
oiaohm DRI 2 differnce is lower subsystems and upper level works as one. Apr 05 11:10
MinceR especially with a distro that enables it by default. :> Apr 05 11:10
DaemonFC that’s the thing Apr 05 11:11
DaemonFC Gentoo is insane Apr 05 11:11
DaemonFC I hate RPM Apr 05 11:11
oiaohm So when something does not need X11 alterations it can go straight past X11. Apr 05 11:11
oiaohm Straight to the hardware. Apr 05 11:11
DaemonFC and Debian is fucking old and bizarre Apr 05 11:11
MinceR kubuntu works for me Apr 05 11:11
DaemonFC that leaves Ubuntu Apr 05 11:11
MinceR afaik debian isn’t so old nowadays Apr 05 11:11
oiaohm So way lower lag Apr 05 11:11
DaemonFC Debian is using an old kernel, if you build 2.6.29, it comes up with no sound somehow Apr 05 11:12
DaemonFC fuck if I know Apr 05 11:12
oiaohm That is strange sound here works perfectly with 2.6.29 and debian. Apr 05 11:12
MinceR even if it isn’t enabled, you could configure it. Apr 05 11:12
DaemonFC and the version of GNOME it is using has old programs that don’t like my hardware, webcam for instance Apr 05 11:12
DaemonFC Cheese crashes and won’t access it Apr 05 11:12
DaemonFC Camorama crashes and won’t access it Apr 05 11:13
oiaohm Some how you must have missed ticked something like disablign audio completely in kernel DaemonFC Apr 05 11:13
oiaohm Its only 1 check box. Apr 05 11:13
DaemonFC even though it is fully UVC compliant Apr 05 11:13
DaemonFC and no other distro chokes on it Apr 05 11:13
DaemonFC how the fuck do you miss that? Apr 05 11:13
DaemonFC it’s importing the config file of the running kernel? Apr 05 11:13
*kentma (n=user@ellandroad.demon.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 05 11:13
DaemonFC it should support anything the running kernel does Apr 05 11:14
oiaohm If ubuntu had not altered the name of the audio setting for a few sound cards. Apr 05 11:14
oiaohm It would work. Apr 05 11:14
DaemonFC I have no idea what Debian is thinking, but it’s full of bugs and completely inappropriate for a desktop Apr 05 11:14
oiaohm Debian is slightly different. Apr 05 11:14
oiaohm Watch that you did not import server kernel settings. Apr 05 11:15
DaemonFC Debian defaults to server settings Apr 05 11:15
oiaohm Audio there required modprobing a few more modules. Apr 05 11:15
DaemonFC I know how to compile a kernel Apr 05 11:15
DaemonFC I also know that Debian’s kernel is fucked Apr 05 11:15
oiaohm Its not the worse kernel out there. Apr 05 11:16
DaemonFC well, I’m sure it isn’t Apr 05 11:16
DaemonFC but it’s one of the more ridiculous ones I’ve seen Apr 05 11:16
oiaohm At least debian building is not a wall of error messages. Apr 05 11:16
oiaohm Like fedoras. Apr 05 11:17
oiaohm Last count when I built Fedoras was 30000 error messages. Apr 05 11:17
oiaohm correction warning messages. Apr 05 11:17
oiaohm You are wondering how in crap it runs. Apr 05 11:17
DaemonFC oh, there’s tones of compiler warnings on Debian and Ubuntu Apr 05 11:17
DaemonFC are you kidding me? Apr 05 11:17
oiaohm Nop. Apr 05 11:17
DaemonFC *tons Apr 05 11:17
oiaohm Debian and Ubuntu have less than Fedora. Apr 05 11:18
DaemonFC hah Apr 05 11:18
DaemonFC doubt that Apr 05 11:18
oiaohm There are less Apr 05 11:18
oiaohm Fedora currently holds the record for them. Apr 05 11:18
DaemonFC I really really doubt that Apr 05 11:18
DaemonFC there’s enough compiler warnings building a vanilla kernel to scare anyone Apr 05 11:18
DaemonFC how could Fedora be worse? Apr 05 11:19
oiaohm Remember Fedora has more patches not approved for main branch. Apr 05 11:19
oiaohm Than any other kernel. Apr 05 11:19
DaemonFC yeah, well, Red Hat is probably the largest corporate contributor to Linux Apr 05 11:19
oiaohm Its like this is a prototype feature lets add it anyhow. Apr 05 11:19
DaemonFC over 70% of Linux development is done by paid programmers Apr 05 11:19
oiaohm Not like anyone using fedora for anything important. Apr 05 11:19
DaemonFC working at companies Apr 05 11:19
DaemonFC It’s how things get done Apr 05 11:20
DaemonFC just be happy that it’s getting done Apr 05 11:20
DaemonFC and watch the blinkenlights Apr 05 11:20
oiaohm vanilla kernel warning numbers are fairly low. Apr 05 11:20
DaemonFC bull Apr 05 11:20
oiaohm I mean in type DaemonFC Apr 05 11:21
oiaohm Fedora has wrong struct to wrong struct messages and all. Apr 05 11:21
oiaohm Stuff that if it still works its more good luck than good coding. Apr 05 11:22
DaemonFC Fedora is not unreliable Apr 05 11:22
DaemonFC most bugs are trivial and fixed soon Apr 05 11:22
oiaohm Did you skip building the stuff in the crap tree with the vanillla. Apr 05 11:23
DaemonFC a distro like Ubuntu just commits to the same set of bugs Apr 05 11:23
DaemonFC for the next 6 months Apr 05 11:23
oiaohm 95 percent of the messages in vanilla come from the staging tree. Apr 05 11:23
DaemonFC I don’t build staging drivers Apr 05 11:23
oiaohm Drivers put forward to be looked at and cleaned up. Apr 05 11:23
DaemonFC I don’t have any hardware that needs them Apr 05 11:23
DaemonFC and they taint the kernel Apr 05 11:23
DaemonFC I’ve built my kernel to have the lowest latency I can get Apr 05 11:25
DaemonFC so that timer-based Pulseaudio becomes desirable Apr 05 11:25
oiaohm So its built with real-time tree merged. Apr 05 11:25
oiaohm Or not that far on lowest latency. Apr 05 11:25
DaemonFC the latency on a default Ubuntu kernel is awful Apr 05 11:26
DaemonFC they compile it to get good battery life even though you’re probably not on a laptop Apr 05 11:26
DaemonFC so they have less kernels to maintain Apr 05 11:26
oiaohm So you mean the tickless kernel that pulseaudio hates. Apr 05 11:27
oiaohm Really like to know why jackaudio works fine with it and pulseaudio has issues. Apr 05 11:27
DaemonFC I disabled tickless Apr 05 11:27
DaemonFC iccckth Apr 05 11:27
DaemonFC who cares? Apr 05 11:27
DaemonFC Tickless is fucking stupid Apr 05 11:27
oiaohm Thinking both provides real time audio siupport. Apr 05 11:27
DaemonFC if you’re not using a laptop Apr 05 11:27
oiaohm Pulseaudio not working with it is a coding defect in pulseaudio, Apr 05 11:28
DaemonFC Again with the I don’t want Tickless anyway Apr 05 11:28
oiaohm Because tickless should be having no effect. Apr 05 11:28
DaemonFC so I don’t care why Pulse hates it Apr 05 11:28
DaemonFC 0.9.15 works about as well either way Apr 05 11:28
DaemonFC but I don’t want Tickless Apr 05 11:28
oiaohm Because tickless will become important when other real time support features get added. Apr 05 11:29
DaemonFC tickless jsut causes latency and other undesirable behavior Apr 05 11:29
oiaohm Yes features that completely shatter pulseaudio. Apr 05 11:29
oiaohm That tickless does not happen says you have informed kernel of need Apr 05 11:29
oiaohm Pulseaudio is failing to do that for some reason. Apr 05 11:29
DaemonFC I disabled Tickless and set HZ=1000 Apr 05 11:29
oiaohm If you don’t inform kernel of need something with high access rights to you with real time can push your process of the ticker any how. Apr 05 11:30
oiaohm So you don’t run a real time patched kernel so never have seen that. Apr 05 11:30
DaemonFC meh, I’m used to working around various stupidity Apr 05 11:30
DaemonFC disabling Speedstep for example Apr 05 11:30
DaemonFC have to do that or it won’t allow my overclocking Apr 05 11:31
oiaohm Guess what linked to why Tickless stops. Apr 05 11:31
oiaohm Same defect. Apr 05 11:31
oiaohm You are patching stacks and stacks of places. Apr 05 11:31
oiaohm Fix 1 place make about 4 disappear. Apr 05 11:31
oiaohm From ever being a problem. Apr 05 11:31
DaemonFC CPU Frequency scaling doesn’t save power Apr 05 11:31
DaemonFC it just lowers the CPU temp Apr 05 11:31
oiaohm and guess what. Apr 05 11:32
oiaohm Linux kernel only uses it for CPU over temp. Apr 05 11:32
oiaohm Instead it uses tickless to save power. Apr 05 11:32
DaemonFC GNOME scales it On Demand Apr 05 11:32
DaemonFC no matter what the kernel defaults to Apr 05 11:32
DaemonFC those stupid fucks at GNOME Apr 05 11:32
DaemonFC grrr Apr 05 11:32
oiaohm The interface for userspace is being removed. Apr 05 11:33
DaemonFC thank god Apr 05 11:33
DaemonFC it should NEVER be handed to user space Apr 05 11:33
oiaohm You can also block it by changing permissions in proc. Apr 05 11:33
DaemonFC I disabled Speedstep in the BIOS Apr 05 11:33
DaemonFC lets see GNOME overrule me now Apr 05 11:33
DaemonFC B-) Apr 05 11:33
oiaohm I added a selinux rule. Apr 05 11:34
DaemonFC I could have also removed it from the kernel Apr 05 11:34
oiaohm Nothing may access that file. Apr 05 11:34
DaemonFC CPU Frequency scaling is stupid Apr 05 11:34
oiaohm Yet it still allows kernel to use it in case of overheat. Apr 05 11:34
DaemonFC well, all it sees in my case is 1.6 and 1.87 Ghz Apr 05 11:36
DaemonFC even though I set the BIOS to overclock the CPU Apr 05 11:36
DaemonFC to 2.33 Ghz Apr 05 11:36
DaemonFC so if I have it enabled at all it scales the CPU to one of those two Apr 05 11:36
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oiaohm Ok that is stupid. Apr 05 11:45
oiaohm Person wondering why Linux kernel is steeping in of course it will. Apr 05 11:45
schestowitz Randy passed away.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ-Ixbi… Apr 05 12:36
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oiaohm He is going to be missed. Apr 05 13:04
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schestowitz it’s an example of a person who saw fame just before dying (or after) Apr 05 13:13
schestowitz Eric Blair is another example Apr 05 13:13
schestowitz maybe Alan Turing too Apr 05 13:14
schestowitz bbl Apr 05 13:29
oiaohm Even before he was dieing some of his write up on things were great. Apr 05 13:30
oiaohm Known to be dead man walking does have some advantages. Apr 05 13:35
oiaohm Like finding out how famous you are. Apr 05 13:36
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_Hicham_ Hi Roy! Apr 05 14:28
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_Hicham_ is there anyone in the room? Apr 05 14:54
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schestowitz I’ll do some Microsoft posts Apr 05 16:00
schestowitz They are deeply screwed this week,. Apr 05 16:00
Eruaran Really ? Apr 05 16:12
schestowitz yes, I’ll do posts Apr 05 16:18
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_Hicham_ hi there Apr 05 16:24
schestowitz Hey Apr 05 16:29
_Hicham_ how r u doing Roy? Apr 05 16:30
_Hicham_ did u go to the gym? Apr 05 16:30
schestowitz Yes Apr 05 16:37
_Hicham_ did u ever try byethost.com? Apr 05 16:41
schestowitz OK, done. Microsoft is sliding pretty steadily.. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/05/… Apr 05 16:48
schestowitz _Hicham_: yes, I know Bytehost Apr 05 16:48
_Hicham_ how do u rate it? Apr 05 16:48
Eruaran I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is. I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat. – Rebecca West, 1913 Apr 05 16:56
Omar87 By the way! I was surprised today that finally, a university in Jordan has officially opened a Python course.. ! :) Apr 05 16:58
Omar87 I was so amazed! :D Apr 05 16:58
schestowitz _Hicham_: it’s considered good. Apr 05 16:59
schestowitz Omar87: about time. Apr 05 17:00
schestowitz I’m only getting started on Microsoft. There’s more: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/05/fa… Apr 05 17:00
schestowitz That last one uses rubbish figures, but nonetheless.. Apr 05 17:00
_Hicham_ schestowitz : it has a 50 MB database, and 5GB of disk storage Apr 05 17:05
_Hicham_ all for free Apr 05 17:05
Omar87 schestowitz: Excuse me? Apr 05 17:08
Eruaran I find Microsoft’s “Stirling” a fascinating idea… Apr 05 17:21
Eruaran Fascinating that this corporation won’t make a reasonably secure operating system but will enter that false economy of which the likes of Norton 360 are a part, with its own product for their own platform… Apr 05 17:22
Eruaran If they ever do release it I think history will judge it as one of the most bizarre and topsy turvy moments in IT history Apr 05 17:23
_Hicham_ Microsoft already have OneCare suite Apr 05 17:25
_Hicham_ which works on their Windows Live Toolbar when browsing with Internet Explorer Apr 05 17:25
schestowitz Omar87: I’m just doing many posts about MSFT ATM Apr 05 17:27
schestowitz Eruaran: Linux has had “Stirling” since 1991 Apr 05 17:27
schestowitz It was free, too Apr 05 17:27
Eruaran OneCare was discontinued Apr 05 17:31
Eruaran I think I’m a bit unclear on what “Stirling” is… Is it a standalone thing like any of the security suites for Windows ? Apr 05 17:43
_Hicham_ nothing will beat big suites Apr 05 17:47
_Hicham_ like KIS Apr 05 17:47
schestowitz I wrote a quick update on ways in which Microsoft harms the US: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/05/m… Apr 05 17:52
schestowitz The joys of Apple: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/0… Apr 05 17:59
Eruaran So much for freewheeling capitalism… Apr 05 18:17
Eruaran Or a fee market Apr 05 18:17
_Hicham_ Linux needs games Apr 05 18:18
_Hicham_ more games bundling Apr 05 18:18
_Hicham_ I mean commercial ones Apr 05 18:18
schestowitz Eruaran: if not good for the telecom cartel Apr 05 18:18
schestowitz So it should be banned Apr 05 18:18
schestowitz same with the Internet Apr 05 18:19
schestowitz It’s bad. Apr 05 18:19
schestowitz For newspapers, the copyright cartel… Apr 05 18:19
schestowitz Now, Luddites couldn’t destroy those machines, could they? Apr 05 18:19
schestowitz Monopolising people’s speech for profit… now we have the Internet for chat Apr 05 18:19
Eruaran They think they have some God given right to rule, suppressing disruptive technologies if they think they can. Apr 05 18:20
schestowitz Yes Apr 05 18:20
schestowitz Microsoft too Apr 05 18:21
schestowitz They use patents to enforce it Apr 05 18:21
schestowitz Microsoft invented the GUI, the word processor, the Internet and the file system Apr 05 18:21
schestowitz So Linux should just vanish Apr 05 18:21
Eruaran I’d like to see Android on lots of new phones Apr 05 18:24
Eruaran And the Android Marketplace kill Apples App Store Apr 05 18:25
Eruaran Break that controlling nonsense Apr 05 18:25
schestowitz How libre is it really? Apr 05 18:31
schestowitz I get the impression that Google locks down Linux, and it also excludes GNU and polices what goes on phones. Apr 05 18:32
Eruaran I read the license agreement Apr 05 18:32
Eruaran For contributing to Android itself Apr 05 18:32
Eruaran It seemed ok Apr 05 18:33
Eruaran It included a clause that basically said that if any contributor tries to sue or act against another on the grounds of patents… basically infiltrate and try and attack from within, they lose commit rights Apr 05 18:34
Eruaran Google acts as a gatekeeper Apr 05 18:34
Eruaran If someone has a claim against another contributor they can’t join Apr 05 18:35
Eruaran So basically you can’t attack it and be part of it at the same time Apr 05 18:36
Eruaran kind of GPLv3ish Apr 05 18:36
Eruaran I should probably have another look at it Apr 05 18:37
Eruaran But it seemed ok at the time when I read it Apr 05 18:38
schestowitz I think there was a controversy, but maybe it was Chrome. Some EULA was changed. Apr 05 18:38
Eruaran that was Chrome Apr 05 18:38
schestowitz Windows/Office users are naked [SFW]: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/… Apr 05 18:39
schestowitz Eruaran: I know about Chrome, but I think there was something about Android too. iPhone had several (NDA issue for starters) Apr 05 18:39
Eruaran http://source.android.com/license Apr 05 18:42
Eruaran http://source.android.com/license/individ… Apr 05 18:42
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Eruaran Google seems to favor the Apache 2.0 license Apr 05 18:49
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schestowitz Google loves Apache Apr 05 18:52
schestowitz IBM loves Eclipse licence Apr 05 18:52
schestowitz Sun loves CDDL Apr 05 18:52
schestowitz Microsoft loves proprietary (and ms-[trojan]) Apr 05 18:52
Eruaran Microsoft loves Poisoned Source Apr 05 18:52
Eruaran Call it the “MSPSL” Apr 05 18:53
Eruaran “MSPSL: You code, we own, you pay us to own your code or we sue”. Apr 05 18:54
schestowitz “Gun control has not worked in D.C. The only people who have guns are criminals. We have the strictest gun laws in the nation and one of the highest murder rates. It’s quicker to pull your Smith & Wesson than to dial 911 if you’re being robbed.” Apr 05 19:08
DaemonFC Trigger happy lunatics Apr 05 19:08
DaemonFC the NRA and their damned lobbyists Apr 05 19:08
DaemonFC they jsut want to sell guns to both the criminals and the peopel that now “need protection” Apr 05 19:09
DaemonFC either way, they win Apr 05 19:09
DaemonFC who cares who gets murdered? Apr 05 19:09
schestowitz “More and more I come to value charity and love of one’s fellow being above everything else… All our lauded technological progress–our very civilization–is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal.” –Albert Einstein Apr 05 19:09
DaemonFC they’ll supply both sides cause they make the money Apr 05 19:09
DaemonFC and they’re not the ones being murdered Apr 05 19:09
DaemonFC the NRA is the most despicable group of fascist fringe lunatics this side of organized Christianity Apr 05 19:10
Eruaran ? Apr 05 19:10
schestowitz MinceR: Memories of Microsoft corruption in Hungary: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/05/… Apr 05 19:13
DaemonFC schestowitz: Novell claims to have usability focus groups Apr 05 19:16
DaemonFC so where did they get SLAB, Yast2, and the GNOEM Control Panel they use? Apr 05 19:16
DaemonFC it’s more like Choose Your Own Adventure Apr 05 19:16
DaemonFC I was working on an OpenSuse 11.1 system the other day and I couldn’t find *anything* because it was so poorly laid out Apr 05 19:17
Eruaran That’s becuase they take the work of others and screw it up Apr 05 19:18
DaemonFC you open their GNOME menu, and it unfolds into four pages of crap, you open this panel that has all the applications grouped, and look through 50 icons Apr 05 19:19
DaemonFC oh right, Yast, you click that and ther’s 100 more icons Apr 05 19:19
Eruaran they do the same thing to KDE Apr 05 19:20
Eruaran They neutered KDE’s System Settings and put everything in Yast Apr 05 19:20
Eruaran They renamed System Settings to ‘Personal Settings; Apr 05 19:21
Eruaran totally bastardized and screwed up Apr 05 19:21
Eruaran The user is left confused between two control centre type tools Apr 05 19:21
Eruaran The KDE team did a lot of work on usability and Novell just gutted it Apr 05 19:22
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schestowitz DaemonFC: I don’t use any of these Apr 05 19:24
schestowitz (SLAB, Yast2, and the GNOME Control Panel) Apr 05 19:24
schestowitz Someone told me that “Dell recommends migration to Windows Server 2008″. Where does it say recommend? Apr 05 19:27
schestowitz Can I find out if it’s another “recommends” scam? Apr 05 19:28
schestowitz http://simplifyvirtualization.com/pa… Apr 05 19:28
Eruaran Of course it is Apr 05 19:28
schestowitz “For many enterprises, the biggest hurdle in upgrading to the Windows Server 2008 OS is the complexity of the migration process. Dell helps simplify IT and reduce risk with comprehensive service offerings and a validated, repeatable approach that includes seamless support for integrated Microsoft applications on Dell servers. “ Apr 05 19:28
Eruaran If you don’t do the ads just right according to Microsoft’s wishes you don’t get your money Apr 05 19:28
schestowitz Apparently they are once again using the IDG/IDC shills (see icon on page) Apr 05 19:28
schestowitz The three musketeers do the kickbacks. Apr 05 19:29
Eruaran Microsoft controls things right down to the size of the Windows logo on your advertising material Apr 05 19:30
Eruaran When you make them happy, they give you money. Apr 05 19:30
Eruaran Its a payola system. Apr 05 19:31
Eruaran You submit your ad to Microsoft and they tell you if it meets their requirements. Apr 05 19:31
Eruaran I’m not joking. Apr 05 19:31
DaemonFC OK, good for Dell Apr 05 19:32
DaemonFC they’re also like  the only major OEM selling machines with Linux at a reasonable price Apr 05 19:33
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Balrog_ hey everyone Apr 05 19:38
Balrog_ << http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/… Apr 05 19:38
schestowitz Yup Apr 05 19:46
schestowitz I posted this in BN Apr 05 19:46
Balrog_ ok. Apr 05 19:48
Balrog_ ” T-Mobile Germany Banning Skype for iPhone” is more about the telecom providers than apple Apr 05 19:51
schestowitz Kickbacks in Australia? Enquiring minds want to know – why no Linux for NSW high school laptops? < http://www.itwire.com/content/vi… > Apr 05 19:53
schestowitz Balrog: it’s like saying that Apple does not support DRM; the media companies do Apr 05 19:54
schestowitz It takes two to tango Apr 05 19:54
Balrog_ well, apple didn’t comment about T-Mobile in Germany (yet) Apr 05 19:55
schestowitz skype em to ask :-) Apr 05 20:13
_Hicham_ schestowitz : do u use skype? Apr 05 20:18
MinceR how are you gentlemen !! Apr 05 20:23
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_Hicham_ wb MinceR Apr 05 20:30
schestowitz hehe.. “”Are software patents a real threat? I don’t think so. I think they are a pain in the ass for all software. [...] it could well be that the other day you tell people that bikinis are more dangerous than patents for software developers. Who knows?!”” Apr 05 20:49
schestowitz “And remember, a bunch of crazy software nerds and Mr. Pilch, scholars, patent experts and some external freedom to knowledge groupies. Lobbyists like Lueders, Mingorance and Zuck really pissed us off back then. Today we would just laugh and find them bad performers, back then we thought they were the lords of the scene.” Apr 05 20:50
schestowitz “You had a former communist as Lueders speaking in the name of the industry and depict us as leftists who don’t want to pay for software… and that really offended us. The main task was to get the media paradigm right which took quite long and persistent work.” Apr 05 20:50
schestowitz “To break the misconceptions of the EPO terminology. To expose the patent lies. To get a free market friendly solution. We were nightmare lobbyists but we were “real” and wanted an honest solution. Even back then the patent system was the worst enemy, not the lobbyists as decoration.” Apr 05 20:50
schestowitz “Microsoft should have asked for comments on their OSP. “…there is a problem” is a fallacy.” Apr 05 20:51
Balrog_ :( Apr 05 20:52
schestowitz Kubuntuforums.net down for over a day < http://ubuntuforums.org/showthrea… > Apr 05 21:00
schestowitz “Our repositories fell last night. That’s really bad news folks” http://opengeu.intilinux.com/News/Voci/2009/4/… Apr 05 21:05
DaemonFC heh Apr 05 21:09
Balrog_ :X Apr 05 21:09
DaemonFC and all five E17 users noticed? Apr 05 21:09
DaemonFC *rimshot* Apr 05 21:09
schestowitz http://www.confickerworkinggroup.org/in… Apr 05 21:13
Balrog_ “Normal/Not Infected by Conficker” Apr 05 21:14
Balrog_ non-windows, so obviously Apr 05 21:14
schestowitz Microsoft blog on another migratioto msmono: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2… Apr 05 21:15
schestowitz Some pretty depressing news for Microsoft at the moment: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/… Apr 05 21:17
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Balrog_ http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/… is your creation? Apr 05 21:36
schestowitz yes, the modification only though Apr 05 21:37
schestowitz PR Wars: Apple vs Microsoft…Does Linux need to even bother? < http://www.tuxmachines.org/nod… > Apr 05 21:37
schestowitz IBM employee on “On the Fate of Solaris” (of none): http://daveshields.wordpress.com/20… Apr 05 22:00
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Balrog_ schestowitz: combining solaris technologies with linux (under the GPL) would be great. Apr 05 22:07
schestowitz Just inatlled ManiaDrive on my main machine. It’s a nice little game. Runs nicely but not on dual Apr 05 22:08
Balrog_ cool Apr 05 22:08
schestowitz I get too poor a framerate on dual. Apr 05 22:11
schestowitz I used to want to play Max Payne (2003) on multi-head, but it just duplicated the image. Same with Enemy Territory… Apr 05 22:12
schestowitz UBUNTU article ‘El Pais’ Newspaper http://fabiofilho.wordpress.com/… Apr 05 22:17
schestowitz “Switch to linux [...] I’ve got to tell you, I’m never going back to Windows” http://lionofjudah.squarespace.com/… Apr 05 22:18
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schestowitz “I am quite astounded at how poorly Windows is coming out against ubuntu.” http://frivolityrules.blogspot.com/200… Apr 05 22:23
MinceR why is he astounded? windows compares poorly to any real OS :> Apr 05 22:24
Balrog_ schestowitz: what’s a good linux distro for a 500 MHz P4 Apr 05 22:24
Balrog_ ? Apr 05 22:24
Balrog_ err, P3 Apr 05 22:25
schestowitz MinceR: Maybe that Windows is an OS Apr 05 22:25
Balrog_ or MinceR ** Apr 05 22:25
schestowitz it’s like calling a cheeseburger supper Apr 05 22:25
Balrog_ anyone? Apr 05 22:25
schestowitz DSL? Apr 05 22:26
schestowitz What’s it for? Apr 05 22:26
MinceR Balrog_: i’d try ubuntu with some lightweight DE or WM Apr 05 22:26
schestowitz ELive too is good Apr 05 22:26
MinceR (if KDE isn’t fast enough ;) ) Apr 05 22:26
schestowitz Runs on 200MHz… screams on it Apr 05 22:26
Balrog_ Xubuntu, Fluxubuntu? Apr 05 22:26
schestowitz How much RAM? Apr 05 22:26
MinceR i tend to run icewm on my second x server for full-screen games Apr 05 22:26
schestowitz No compiz? :-D Apr 05 22:27
oiaohm DSL works good in a 233 pent. Apr 05 22:27
schestowitz Game in translucent wobbly window to drive X mad. Apr 05 22:27
oiaohm Hopefully that will disappear soon. Apr 05 22:28
MinceR no compiz yet Apr 05 22:28
oiaohm Most people don’t understand how important fixing the graphical stack is. Apr 05 22:28
MinceR once i manage to upgrade to intrepid or jaunty, i’ll try kde4.2 Apr 05 22:28
MinceR and if it isn’t good enough, i’ll try compiz Apr 05 22:28
oiaohm When the graphical stack is fixed people are going to go what the heck with windows. Apr 05 22:28
MinceR :) Apr 05 22:28
oiaohm General Processing GPU. Apr 05 22:29
MinceR this needs to be fixed if it can be Apr 05 22:29
oiaohm So video decoding in GPU Virus scanning in GPU. Apr 05 22:29
oiaohm And the list goes on. Apr 05 22:29
oiaohm Fastest processor chip in most computers is the GPU on the video card. Apr 05 22:29
_Hicham_ oiaohm : and it is the one to drive the chip hot Apr 05 22:34
_Hicham_ the whole pc get hot Apr 05 22:35
DaemonFC http://www.youtube.com/wa… Apr 05 22:35
DaemonFC :) Apr 05 22:35
oiaohm Yep reason why video cards come with decated vents. Apr 05 22:35
_Hicham_ the “developers” remix of Ballmer is great Apr 05 22:36
_Hicham_ http://www.youtube.com/wat… Apr 05 22:37
_Hicham_ Ballmer is a lost talent in showbizz Apr 05 22:38
_Hicham_ Ballmer can be an actor easily Apr 05 22:38
MinceR a one-role actor Apr 05 22:38
MinceR but then again, there are good one-role actors :) Apr 05 22:39
_Hicham_ like Bill Gates himself Apr 05 22:39
_Hicham_ he is a great actor too Apr 05 22:39
MinceR i don’t know his role Apr 05 22:41
schestowitz http://www.youtube.com/watch?… Apr 05 22:42
schestowitz When will it be dead? Apr 05 22:42
DaemonFC you know Microsoft used to have a UNIX? Apr 05 22:44
schestowitz Xenis Apr 05 22:44
_Hicham_ DaemonFC : on its hotmail servers Apr 05 22:44
DaemonFC it had bugs in the C compiler so you had to rewrite chunks of code to get things to compile Apr 05 22:44
DaemonFC no Apr 05 22:44
schestowitz *Hehe. Typo. Apr 05 22:44
DaemonFC I’m talking about Xenix Apr 05 22:44
_Hicham_ ah Apr 05 22:44
DaemonFC which became SCO UNIXWARE Apr 05 22:45
schestowitz Xenis the impotent Xenix Apr 05 22:45
_Hicham_ MS has a long story with buying Apr 05 22:47
_Hicham_ MS is a commercial entity Apr 05 22:47
_Hicham_ they basically buy and sell Apr 05 22:48
MinceR their old tactic was selling something they didn’t have though :> Apr 05 22:48
MinceR well, it still is Apr 05 22:48
MinceR selling licenses to patents that aren’t infringed on :> Apr 05 22:48
oiaohm http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped…  Xenix is not record in the Unix history map at all. Apr 05 22:49
oiaohm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix  Xenix was not Microsofts. Apr 05 22:50
oiaohm It was a licence copy of Unixware Apr 05 22:50
DaemonFC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix Apr 05 22:50
DaemonFC yeah Apr 05 22:51
DaemonFC that Apr 05 22:51
DaemonFC AT&T licensed UNIX code to a lot of different places Apr 05 22:51
DaemonFC but they acted like the name UNIX was special Apr 05 22:51
DaemonFC so they didn’t license that Apr 05 22:51
_Hicham_ normal Apr 05 22:51
DaemonFC so XENIX was UNIX System V with Microsoft additions Apr 05 22:52
DaemonFC but it kind of dead ended after they sold it to SCO Apr 05 22:52
DaemonFC Xenix was really the only way to run UNIX on a PC in the 1980s Apr 05 22:53
Balrog_ MacTheRipper <http://www.ripdifferent.com/for… violates GPL Apr 05 22:53
Balrog_ links to libdvdcss and they want $50 and it’s not FOSS Apr 05 22:53
Balrog_ it’s totally proprietary Apr 05 22:53
oiaohm SCO gutted it. Apr 05 22:54
MinceR asking money for it isn’t the violation Apr 05 22:54
schestowitz Balrog: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/04/04/… (Microsoft’s latest ad attacks Mac aesthetics, computing power) Apr 05 22:54
MinceR if they don’t give you the source code according to the license terms, that is Apr 05 22:54
Balrog_ they don’t give ANY source code Apr 05 22:56
Balrog_ [6:03pm] Balrog_: it’s totally proprietary Apr 05 22:57
MinceR that’s a violation. Apr 05 22:57
_Hicham_ they must be sued Apr 05 22:57
MinceR better notify the authors of libdvdcss Apr 05 22:57
Balrog_ someone did, they ignored it Apr 05 22:57
Balrog_ Jon Lech Johansen even commented Apr 05 22:57
MinceR well, then they’re ok with it Apr 05 22:57
Balrog_ I’m annoyed, because I want the code Apr 05 22:57
_Hicham_ FSF must find a way to sue such violations Apr 05 22:57
MinceR can anyone but the copyright holder sue? Apr 05 22:57
Balrog_ http://mailman.videolan.org/piperm… Apr 05 22:58
MinceR FSF’s way is asking the author to sign copyright off to the FSF Apr 05 22:58
_Hicham_ the copyright holder can sue Apr 05 22:58
_Hicham_ so FSF is the copyright holder Apr 05 22:58
Balrog_ it’s a very low volume mailing list though Apr 05 22:58
_Hicham_ in most cases Apr 05 22:58
Balrog_ not videolan? Apr 05 22:58
Balrog_ http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cach… Apr 05 22:58
MinceR the only message that month :D Apr 05 22:59
schestowitz Bad publicity Apr 05 22:59
_Hicham_ I hate those fuckers Apr 05 23:01
_Hicham_ but it is easy Apr 05 23:01
_Hicham_ just counterfeit their software and release it Apr 05 23:01
schestowitz “Microsoft Corp. has announced that it will drop mainstream support for Office 2003 on April 14, the same day it starts to retire Windows XP…” http://www.computerworld.com/action/arti… Apr 05 23:02
schestowitz See, with OOo the upgrade is free Apr 05 23:02
Balrog_ people do that. Except that you have to buy it from them first. And I want /source/ Apr 05 23:02
schestowitz Same with Fedora, Ubuntu, etc. Apr 05 23:02
schestowitz Here you have people forced to buy new hardware to run a porky version with MOOX Apr 05 23:02
_Hicham_ Balrog_ : it is not the only ripper Apr 05 23:02
schestowitz So guess what makes non-Free software ‘better’? Apr 05 23:03
Balrog_ what are other good ones that properly preserve VIDEO_TS? Apr 05 23:03
schestowitz it’s made into a black box with a fancy box and a price tag Apr 05 23:03
schestowitz Same code underneath Apr 05 23:03
Balrog_ _Hicham_: that doesn’t mean it’s bad for this to be tolerated Apr 05 23:03
schestowitz _Hicham_: if they broke ripper copyrights, how do you know it’s only that? Apr 05 23:04
schestowitz It’s very possible that they embed other Free software in less obvious places. Apr 05 23:04
_Hicham_ reverse engineering Apr 05 23:04
schestowitz Like busybox Apr 05 23:04
_Hicham_ the only solution is cracking Apr 05 23:04
_Hicham_ crack their shit, and put it for free Apr 05 23:04
_Hicham_ that is how it goes, the old way Apr 05 23:05
_Hicham_ at some point, I think that porting Linux projects to Windows must stop Apr 05 23:05
Balrog_ it’s been cracked, and is on the torrent sites Apr 05 23:05
Balrog_ this isn’t windows, BTW … mac rather Apr 05 23:05
Balrog_ but I want the code Apr 05 23:05
_Hicham_ I don’t know about Mac a lot Apr 05 23:07
Balrog_ Mac can use Linux libraries with only a recompile Apr 05 23:07
Balrog_ it has source-level Unix compatibility Apr 05 23:08
Balrog_ (for the most part) Apr 05 23:08
_Hicham_ Balrog_ : do u insist on preserving the VIDEO_TS structure? Apr 05 23:11
Balrog_ YES. Apr 05 23:11
Balrog_ like for direct copies Apr 05 23:12
Balrog_ just stripping the CSS Apr 05 23:12
Balrog_ and other corruption Apr 05 23:12
_Hicham_ did u try HandBrake? Apr 05 23:13
_Hicham_ http://handbrake.fr/ Apr 05 23:13
Balrog_ it re-encodes. I use it when I need to do that. Apr 05 23:13
_Hicham_ http://exit1.org/dvdrip/ Apr 05 23:14
Balrog_ perl :/ Apr 05 23:14
_Hicham_ u don’t like perl? Apr 05 23:14
Balrog_ not for full blown apps Apr 05 23:14
Balrog_ it’s ok but the module system can be messy Apr 05 23:15
_Hicham_ and finally the oldest one : http://untrepid.com/acidrip/ Apr 05 23:15
_Hicham_ I think that those are the open source ones Apr 05 23:15
oiaohm And MS has extended the time allowed to install XP into 2010. Apr 05 23:15
_Hicham_ but it is perl again Apr 05 23:16
oiaohm At the rate MS is going XP is going to be allowed to be installed new right up to it end of life. Apr 05 23:16
_Hicham_ Balrog_ : u want sthg in C? Apr 05 23:16
_Hicham_ oiaohm : XP won’t be replaced by Vista Apr 05 23:16
Balrog_ something like that. As long as it’s reliable, strips drm and corruption, and provides unaltered VIDEO_TS Apr 05 23:16
oiaohm It windows 7 licence that HP has been allowed to use to install XP on new machines _Hicham_ Apr 05 23:18
oiaohm XP is basically not end of lifing. Apr 05 23:18
_Hicham_ oiaohm : so MS is fucking customers both ways Apr 05 23:19
_Hicham_ Balrog_ : did u try K3b? Apr 05 23:19
_Hicham_ K3b is old and stable Apr 05 23:20
_Hicham_ I don’t know if brasero can copy protected DVDs Apr 05 23:20
_Hicham_ u have a lot of options Apr 05 23:21
oiaohm brasero and k3b can do a direct image copy of anything. Apr 05 23:21
_Hicham_ u want to make ur own application Balrog_? Apr 05 23:21
oiaohm If you have the right size media. Apr 05 23:21
Balrog_ _Hicham_: no, I wanted to study MacTheRipper and use some of that info Apr 05 23:21
_Hicham_ why MacTheRipper? Apr 05 23:21
Balrog_ because it has some interesting features Apr 05 23:22
oiaohm k9copy Apr 05 23:22
_Hicham_ like? Apr 05 23:22
Balrog_ meaning the way it circumvents corruption Apr 05 23:22
schestowitz is xp eol 2012? Apr 05 23:23
oiaohm You can always use vlc to rip a dvd as well. Apr 05 23:23
_Hicham_ Balrog_ : I don’t see where is the problem Apr 05 23:23
oiaohm That is kinda safe to all the corruption faults. Apr 05 23:23
Balrog_ oiaohm: does it preserve VIDEO_TS Apr 05 23:23
oiaohm Nop Apr 05 23:24
Balrog_ no good Apr 05 23:24
oiaohm But it will get the stream out where everything else fails. Apr 05 23:25
oiaohm Used in combination with k9copy is very effective. Apr 05 23:26
_Hicham_ Balrog_ : u want to write ur own application? Apr 05 23:26
Balrog_ maybe down the road, but Apr 05 23:27
Balrog_ I don’t want to reinvent the wheel :/ Apr 05 23:27
_Hicham_ since it is just a backup, why bother? Apr 05 23:27
schestowitz gn Apr 05 23:27
Balrog_ (I’m talking about removing corruption) Apr 05 23:27
oiaohm Is the disk damaged? Apr 05 23:28
_Hicham_ schestowitz : gn Apr 05 23:28
_Hicham_ yes that is the question Apr 05 23:28
_Hicham_ if it is damaged, it is another thing Apr 05 23:28
Balrog_ no, but they use corruption to make it harder to dump Apr 05 23:29
oiaohm That is not corruption. Apr 05 23:29
oiaohm That is problems with poor understanding of mpeg Apr 05 23:29
oiaohm VLC dump will dump effected streams. Apr 05 23:29
oiaohm Removing it. Apr 05 23:30
oiaohm It so simple really all you do to stuff them up is add a background frame that is not used for a while. Apr 05 23:30
oiaohm Lot of ripping programs dump the frame before it need so leading to video break up. Apr 05 23:31
oiaohm Its a performance correction thing done in modernday dvds. Apr 05 23:31
oiaohm So that when there is least ammout ot read of disk stuff is precached. Apr 05 23:31
Balrog_ I see. Apr 05 23:32
oiaohm Basically someone needs to make a ripper based on vlc engine. Apr 05 23:34
oiaohm That does what you want. Apr 05 23:34
oiaohm http://handbrake.fr/  Really that should do it. Apr 05 23:35
oiaohm I really do think it funny that a lot of people ripping say new dvds have copy protection that is breaking there ripping tools. Apr 05 23:37
oiaohm When its is a simple performance correction allowed by mpeg. Apr 05 23:37
Balrog_ handbrake doesn’t preserve video_ts Apr 05 23:38
oiaohm http://k9copy.sourceforge.net/  k9copy rebuilts. Apr 05 23:38
oiaohm Lot of times you don’t need to preserve as long as final form works. Apr 05 23:39
_Hicham_ Balrog_ : why preserve VIDEO_TS? Apr 05 23:40
Balrog_ because I want to lose no quality Apr 05 23:40
Balrog_ I want a full dump without any changes Apr 05 23:40
Balrog_ handbrake also re-encodes Apr 05 23:41
oiaohm Ok so that is the same size disk and k3b image copy. Apr 05 23:41
_Hicham_ mencoder should do it Apr 05 23:41
_Hicham_ mencoder basically copies frame by frame Apr 05 23:41
_Hicham_ did u try mencoder? Apr 05 23:41
oiaohm Because any compressinion alterations will alter quality. Apr 05 23:41
oiaohm Even decrypting can damage. Apr 05 23:42
oiaohm Offset alterations. Apr 05 23:43
oiaohm There is a reason why most dvd copy tools rebuilt the menu. Apr 05 23:44
oiaohm After they decode its basically required. Apr 05 23:44
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.24.162) has left #boycottnovell Apr 05 23:49
MinceR gn Apr 05 23:53
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