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| DaemonFC | Everything Microsoft has done with Windows has been counterfeit Mac | Apr 05 09:57 |
|---|---|---|
| DaemonFC | why not counterfeit PS3 and iPod? | Apr 05 09:57 |
| schestowitz | Done. | Apr 05 09:57 |
| schestowitz | Poorly | Apr 05 09:57 |
| *oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell | Apr 05 09:57 | |
| schestowitz | Reporter's notebook: Sundown for Sun? < http://www.infoworld.com/d/applicati... > | Apr 05 09:57 |
| DaemonFC | I won't be sorry to see Sun go | Apr 05 09:58 |
| DaemonFC | maybe IBM will even license ZFS underl GPL license or something | Apr 05 09:58 |
| DaemonFC | would be nice | Apr 05 09:58 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is going titsup too | Apr 05 09:58 |
| DaemonFC | doubt it | Apr 05 09:58 |
| schestowitz | Even Allen's company. http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/... | Apr 05 09:58 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03... | Apr 05 09:59 |
| DaemonFC | they could burn through cash for 20 years and still be around | Apr 05 09:59 |
| schestowitz | Even Dvorak slams Microsoft's prospects now. http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Sto... http://www.pcmag.com/article2/... | Apr 05 09:59 |
| DaemonFC | that's if they wren't making any money | Apr 05 09:59 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: Microsoft can't buirn cash | Apr 05 10:00 |
| schestowitz | It's pretty much in debt (or almost there) | Apr 05 10:00 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft allows HP to wipe Windows 7 with XP through 2010 < http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09... > | Apr 05 10:00 |
| DaemonFC | Android can't be a bad thing | Apr 05 10:00 |
| DaemonFC | it's pretty much all GPL'd | Apr 05 10:00 |
| schestowitz | They just try to get cheap labour now: http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflas... | Apr 05 10:00 |
| DaemonFC | I fail to see how it's any worse than any other Linux distro | Apr 05 10:00 |
| oiaohm | It will be sad to see sun go. | Apr 05 10:00 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft sells a 'kidney' for cash: http://hamptonroads.com/2009/04/landma... | Apr 05 10:01 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm: Why? | Apr 05 10:01 |
| schestowitz | SPARC | Apr 05 10:01 |
| DaemonFC | To see a GPL-hostile company bought by one of the top 5 Linux contributers? | Apr 05 10:01 |
| DaemonFC | how can that possibly be worse? | Apr 05 10:01 |
| oiaohm | Sun has always been a company who always had fatures ahead of the time. | Apr 05 10:01 |
| schestowitz | Nintendo, Microsoft at bottom of Greenpeace guide < http://www.examiner.com/x-3707-LA-Gaming... > | Apr 05 10:01 |
| DaemonFC | most of Sun's software is slow, bloated, and functionally obsolete | Apr 05 10:02 |
| DaemonFC | ZFS is really the only thing on Solaris that's worth anything | Apr 05 10:02 |
| oiaohm | These days yes DaemonFC | Apr 05 10:02 |
| oiaohm | Container tech is solarias. | Apr 05 10:02 |
| DaemonFC | Linux is getting containers | Apr 05 10:03 |
| oiaohm | How long has sun had them. | Apr 05 10:03 |
| DaemonFC | and blows Solaris out of the water | Apr 05 10:03 |
| DaemonFC | even on JAVA benchmarks | Apr 05 10:03 |
| oiaohm | Its like ZFS | Apr 05 10:03 |
| oiaohm | ZFS most likely will not be around long term but is has sporned better designs in filesystems. | Apr 05 10:03 |
| DaemonFC | There's 10 reasons to go Linux for every reason to go Solaris | Apr 05 10:03 |
| oiaohm | Sun has alway brought new features into the IT world. | Apr 05 10:04 |
| oiaohm | Ok at first not perfect. | Apr 05 10:04 |
| DaemonFC | I really see BtrFS as too bloated and top heavy for a desktop system | Apr 05 10:04 |
| DaemonFC | but maybe if you need geewhizbang features | Apr 05 10:04 |
| oiaohm | Heck even MS networking protocal for filesharing started life at microsoft. | Apr 05 10:04 |
| oiaohm | BtrFS snapshotting feature is useful for the careless. | Apr 05 10:04 |
| oiaohm | NOt SMB protocal that MS network is based on is from SUN. | Apr 05 10:05 |
| oiaohm | Lot of key events in computer history would not have happened when they did without SUN. | Apr 05 10:06 |
| oiaohm | I am going to miss that hopefully another company takes there place. | Apr 05 10:06 |
| DaemonFC | The UNIX Haters Handbook had a whole chapter on NFS | Apr 05 10:07 |
| DaemonFC | they called it Nightmare File System | Apr 05 10:07 |
| DaemonFC | a lot of what the UNIX Haters Handbook complained about in 1994 is still valid with regards to modern UNIX and UNIX clones | Apr 05 10:08 |
| oiaohm | Most large Linux setups don't use it. | Apr 05 10:10 |
| DaemonFC | they mentioned how different UNIX systems were so incompatible that companies would often just choose DOS or Windows, horrible as they were, because they were consistent | Apr 05 10:10 |
| oiaohm | Yes writen pre 2001 posix agreement of course. | Apr 05 10:11 |
| DaemonFC | they gave one example about how the company the guy worked for had a test program that he was trying to compile and run on different UNIX systems, and he got to XENIX and it wouldn't even compile | Apr 05 10:11 |
| DaemonFC | cause there was a bug in the compiler | Apr 05 10:11 |
| oiaohm | You do know that Linux System Calls are the offical standard for cross platform Unix binaries. | Apr 05 10:11 |
| DaemonFC | there are no standards in software | Apr 05 10:12 |
| oiaohm | So it is possiable to release a single binary that runs on everything Linux BSD and Unix. | Apr 05 10:12 |
| DaemonFC | there are specifications that are often implemented incorrectly | Apr 05 10:12 |
| DaemonFC | or have room for interpretation | Apr 05 10:12 |
| oiaohm | Not this case. | Apr 05 10:12 |
| DaemonFC | that doesn't mean there is a standard | Apr 05 10:12 |
| oiaohm | So registering with ISO does not count. | Apr 05 10:13 |
| DaemonFC | BSD has to have an emulator for Linux system calls | Apr 05 10:13 |
| oiaohm | BSD has to other wise its not Unix class. | Apr 05 10:13 |
| DaemonFC | if you don't have that, a lot of Linux stuff won't run, unmodified | Apr 05 10:13 |
| DaemonFC | Linux does a lot of non-standard things | Apr 05 10:13 |
| DaemonFC | and other systems have to mimic the incorrect behaviors of Linux | Apr 05 10:14 |
| oiaohm | Do you know why Linux got the standard. | Apr 05 10:14 |
| oiaohm | Not some other Unix. | Apr 05 10:14 |
| DaemonFC | Linux is not a standard | Apr 05 10:14 |
| oiaohm | Simple fact even that Linux system calls might do strange things they are constant. | Apr 05 10:14 |
| oiaohm | About it. | Apr 05 10:14 |
| DaemonFC | Anyone who says standard and software in the same sentence is smoking crack | Apr 05 10:14 |
| oiaohm | Ever since the system call was added to the Linux kernel. | Apr 05 10:15 |
| oiaohm | Other Unix system calls have altered over time what they do. | Apr 05 10:15 |
| DaemonFC | Linux makes a poor system to try and standardize | Apr 05 10:15 |
| oiaohm | No it does not. | Apr 05 10:15 |
| DaemonFC | because every thing abotu Linux defies standardization | Apr 05 10:15 |
| oiaohm | syscalls don't. | Apr 05 10:16 |
| DaemonFC | Linux is nothing more than a kernel with a pile of add ons | Apr 05 10:16 |
| DaemonFC | FreeBSD makes a much better system | Apr 05 10:16 |
| oiaohm | FreeBSD over time has changed there syscalls. | Apr 05 10:16 |
| DaemonFC | in FreeBSD, everything is developed there | Apr 05 10:16 |
| oiaohm | So breaking binary compadible. | Apr 05 10:16 |
| DaemonFC | it's all coherent | Apr 05 10:16 |
| DaemonFC | Linux is jsut a patchwork | Apr 05 10:16 |
| DaemonFC | you can have wildly incompatible implementations | Apr 05 10:17 |
| oiaohm | Not in syscalls. | Apr 05 10:17 |
| oiaohm | Its a section of Linux that has always been costant. | Apr 05 10:17 |
| oiaohm | Ok internals of Linux chaos central. | Apr 05 10:17 |
| oiaohm | But the interfaces to userspace have stayed costant. | Apr 05 10:18 |
| DaemonFC | like I said, Linux makes a poor system to expect standard behavior out of | Apr 05 10:18 |
| oiaohm | Depends. | Apr 05 10:18 |
| DaemonFC | because there is really no standard behavior | Apr 05 10:18 |
| oiaohm | Do you want userspace binaries to run. | Apr 05 10:18 |
| DaemonFC | unless you want to statically link to your own copy of everything | Apr 05 10:19 |
| oiaohm | If so Linux is perfectly fine. | Apr 05 10:19 |
| DaemonFC | otherwise the only software you know wil lrun is from your distribution's repo | Apr 05 10:19 |
| oiaohm | Linux also support each application having its own dynamic loader. | Apr 05 10:19 |
| oiaohm | So no you don't have to static link everything. | Apr 05 10:19 |
| DaemonFC | It's what id software does | Apr 05 10:19 |
| DaemonFC | it's what Opera does | Apr 05 10:19 |
| DaemonFC | it's what every program that has to work between distros does | Apr 05 10:20 |
| DaemonFC | cause it's the only way to make it work | Apr 05 10:20 |
| oiaohm | LOL | Apr 05 10:20 |
| oiaohm | Not every program. | Apr 05 10:20 |
| DaemonFC | Linux is insane, it is not even compatible with Linux | Apr 05 10:20 |
| oiaohm | There are many appache servers with PHP. | Apr 05 10:20 |
| oiaohm | for custom webapplications that use own dynamic loader. | Apr 05 10:20 |
| DaemonFC | It's why most proprietary software avoids Linux, because they can't recompile it 100 times for every distro | Apr 05 10:21 |
| oiaohm | Can you document a case of Linux kernel not compadible with Linux Kernel. | Apr 05 10:21 |
| DaemonFC | then maintain the versions every time the distro upgrades | Apr 05 10:21 |
| oiaohm | Its the path they choose. | Apr 05 10:21 |
| oiaohm | They choose to get themselfs mixed up in the distribution mess. | Apr 05 10:22 |
| oiaohm | There is no such requirement that they have to. | Apr 05 10:22 |
| DaemonFC | well, lots of times there's no free software that is really good enough for what you want to do with it | Apr 05 10:22 |
| oiaohm | Mostly because people like you DaemonFC spread the myth that there is no option to dynamic link. | Apr 05 10:22 |
| DaemonFC | there's no professional grade video/audio editing software for Linux, Gimp is alright but it's no photoshop | Apr 05 10:22 |
| DaemonFC | People agree with what I said or else there wouldn't be Wine and Crossover | Apr 05 10:23 |
| DaemonFC | saying "We run Photoshop!!!" | Apr 05 10:23 |
| oiaohm | Ok tell me why you would run professional grade video/audio or picture editing on unstable grapical system like X11. | Apr 05 10:24 |
| DaemonFC | if you want it to run, you will statically link, and even that isn't a guarantee | Apr 05 10:24 |
| DaemonFC | you can still hit bugs that are in say Ubuntu, but not Fedora | Apr 05 10:24 |
| Eruaran | Cinelerra | Apr 05 10:25 |
| Eruaran | Ardour | Apr 05 10:25 |
| DaemonFC | Enemy Territory: Quake Wars runs fine on Ubuntu, but hits Pulseaudio bugs in Fedora | Apr 05 10:25 |
| DaemonFC | you have to remove Pulseaudio in Fedora to get it to where the sound works right | Apr 05 10:25 |
| DaemonFC | but then Adobe Flash on Linux can't access your microphone | Apr 05 10:25 |
| DaemonFC | so you can't use Ustream | Apr 05 10:25 |
| Eruaran | Pulseaudio should be renamed to "WhatTheHellWereWeThinking" | Apr 05 10:25 |
| DaemonFC | or perhaps I should get an analog microphone even though my $70 webcam has one | Apr 05 10:26 |
| DaemonFC | because of Linux bugs interfering with Flash | Apr 05 10:26 |
| DaemonFC | Adobe says they're working on it, so we'll see | Apr 05 10:27 |
| Eruaran | Pulseaudio is not running on my system | Apr 05 10:27 |
| DaemonFC | I've got the newest Pulseaudio | Apr 05 10:28 |
| DaemonFC | it's not giving me troubles | Apr 05 10:28 |
| DaemonFC | the one that comes with Ubuntu Jaunty is hell on wheels though | Apr 05 10:28 |
| DaemonFC | B-) | Apr 05 10:28 |
| Eruaran | Kubuntu doesn't come with Pulseaudio installed | Apr 05 10:29 |
| DaemonFC | I may as well just fork Ubuntu and distribute something that makes sense | Apr 05 10:29 |
| DaemonFC | but I can't afford to pay the LSB mafia people | Apr 05 10:29 |
| DaemonFC | so I'm screwed | Apr 05 10:30 |
| DaemonFC | right oiaohm? | Apr 05 10:30 |
| Eruaran | pay ? | Apr 05 10:30 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, LSB is a payola system | Apr 05 10:30 |
| DaemonFC | Eruaran: Kubuntu has Pulseaudio | Apr 05 10:31 |
| DaemonFC | Xubuntu doesn't | Apr 05 10:31 |
| Eruaran | I'm using Kubuntu 9.04 beta1 | Apr 05 10:31 |
| DaemonFC | no, you're on the daily build | Apr 05 10:32 |
| DaemonFC | apt will upgrade you to the snapshot day by day | Apr 05 10:32 |
| Eruaran | It has libpulse0 and nothing else | Apr 05 10:32 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, but without Pulseaudio, you're left with shitty audio support that belongs in 1995 | Apr 05 10:33 |
| Eruaran | I'm happy with the way my system is working | Apr 05 10:34 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, try using a microphone | Apr 05 10:34 |
| DaemonFC | or multiple sound streams | Apr 05 10:34 |
| DaemonFC | ALSA just can't handle anything you'd expect in a modern system | Apr 05 10:35 |
| DaemonFC | without Pulse | Apr 05 10:35 |
| DaemonFC | before Pulse, Linux audio was a clusterfuck where programs would conflict with each other if they tried to access the sound card at the same time | Apr 05 10:36 |
| DaemonFC | it was fairly awful | Apr 05 10:36 |
| Eruaran | Ardour works fine | Apr 05 10:36 |
| DaemonFC | KDE has Phonon which alleviates some of that | Apr 05 10:36 |
| Eruaran | I really don't need someone else to tell me what my requirements are or that I cant do what I'm already doing... | Apr 05 10:38 |
| Eruaran | Ardour uses jack | Apr 05 10:38 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: try alsa and dmix. :> | Apr 05 10:38 |
| DaemonFC | then build your own system | Apr 05 10:38 |
| DaemonFC | Linux From Scratch maybe? | Apr 05 10:39 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC If bugs in Ubuntu and Fedora caused stuff not to work I would not be able to use intergrated systems using openvz | Apr 05 10:39 |
| oiaohm | Ie massive numbers of distributions stacked onto 1 kernel. | Apr 05 10:39 |
| DaemonFC | no matter what distro you use, they all have bugs and quirks, and oddities | Apr 05 10:39 |
| DaemonFC | that don't happen anywhere else | Apr 05 10:39 |
| oiaohm | pulseaudio itself is troubles. | Apr 05 10:39 |
| Eruaran | That applies to all operating systems. | Apr 05 10:39 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: you have to be aware its nothing strange for me to have 12 different distributions running on 1 Linux kernel. | Apr 05 10:40 |
| oiaohm | Without having to alter any of them. | Apr 05 10:40 |
| oiaohm | Other than removing pulseaudio. | Apr 05 10:40 |
| oiaohm | That is quite minor incompadiblely really. | Apr 05 10:40 |
| DaemonFC | https://launchpad.net/~themuso... | Apr 05 10:41 |
| oiaohm | You ar trying to argue there is large incompadiblity there when there is not. | Apr 05 10:41 |
| DaemonFC | you're talking about lobotomizing Linux audio back to the point where it's about as capable as Windows 3.1 | Apr 05 10:42 |
| DaemonFC | even Windows 95 handled multiple streams better than Linux can without a sound server like Pulse | Apr 05 10:42 |
| oiaohm | Because it need to be cut off because pulseaudio design is crap. | Apr 05 10:42 |
| oiaohm | dmix supports multiable streams. | Apr 05 10:43 |
| oiaohm | Only major difference between dmix and pulseaudio is per application volume control. | Apr 05 10:43 |
| DaemonFC | I'm not saying that Pulseaudio is not a buggy pile of shit | Apr 05 10:43 |
| Eruaran | If you're really interested in pro-audio then you want good hardware for it and for it to simply be supported under Linux | Apr 05 10:43 |
| DaemonFC | I'm saying Linux is even worse without it | Apr 05 10:43 |
| oiaohm | Jack is the sound server for pro audio work. | Apr 05 10:43 |
| Eruaran | From the Ardour site: | Apr 05 10:44 |
| Eruaran | "For high-end use, the RME Hammerfall series and the M-Audio Delta series are both recommended choices. These devices are well-supported under Linux" | Apr 05 10:44 |
| oiaohm | Pulseaudio is a poorly designed to be userfriendly. | Apr 05 10:44 |
| oiaohm | Major feature addes of Pulseaudio is network sound and per application volume control. | Apr 05 10:44 |
| oiaohm | But that is really not worth the extream instablity pulseaudio gives. | Apr 05 10:45 |
| oiaohm | Pulseaudio should sit on the edges for a few more years until they get the major bugs out. | Apr 05 10:45 |
| oiaohm | Ubuntu mostly added Pulseaudio so they could have the feature of vista of per application volume control. | Apr 05 10:47 |
| oiaohm | Is per application volume control worth the instablity DaemonFC. | Apr 05 10:47 |
| DaemonFC | it's not just that | Apr 05 10:47 |
| *Eruaran (n=quassel@183.110.208.203.cable.dyn.gex.ncable.com.au) has left #boycottnovell ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.") | Apr 05 10:47 | |
| oiaohm | That is all Pulseaudio really offer. | Apr 05 10:47 |
| DaemonFC | Pulseaudio is the only thing that can properly route sound streams to the proper device | Apr 05 10:48 |
| oiaohm | Compared to its competor interface gstreamer. | Apr 05 10:48 |
| DaemonFC | if I wanted a stupid audio system from 1995, I'd use Debian | Apr 05 10:48 |
| oiaohm | That does not run a sound server at all. | Apr 05 10:48 |
| oiaohm | If your applications need the support of the features Pulseaudio offers you are better to use gstreamer to get them. | Apr 05 10:49 |
| DaemonFC | the best thing to do is use the latest Pulseaudio | Apr 05 10:49 |
| oiaohm | Other than per application volume control. | Apr 05 10:49 |
| DaemonFC | Pulseaudio fixes so many problems | Apr 05 10:49 |
| oiaohm | So does gstreamer. | Apr 05 10:49 |
| DaemonFC | removing it lobotomizes the audio stack | Apr 05 10:49 |
| oiaohm | Have you ever bother comparing them. | Apr 05 10:49 |
| DaemonFC | Without it, I'd rather install and use Windows 95 | Apr 05 10:50 |
| DaemonFC | as far as audio capability | Apr 05 10:50 |
| oiaohm | gstreamer low lagacy audio that will truely happen. | Apr 05 10:50 |
| oiaohm | No need for audio to go through two process streams to get out. | Apr 05 10:50 |
| oiaohm | So you can give application real time performance settings and it works. | Apr 05 10:51 |
| oiaohm | Compared to pulseaudio where server and application are fighting for cpu time. | Apr 05 10:51 |
| oiaohm | Basically it don't work. | Apr 05 10:51 |
| oiaohm | Even jack has its limitations. | Apr 05 10:51 |
| oiaohm | Main reason for jack existance is to work as a patch table between applications. | Apr 05 10:52 |
| oiaohm | Sound server doing that job can work. | Apr 05 10:52 |
| oiaohm | High grade audio you want the least ammount of crap between you and the sound card. | Apr 05 10:52 |
| oiaohm | You don't want prep work for network sending done if you are not network sending. You don't want extra mixing. Lot of features pulse is adding stuffed any chance of well performing audio out. | Apr 05 10:53 |
| oiaohm | Pulseaudio is nothing more than middle ground tech that is not really needed. | Apr 05 10:54 |
| oiaohm | It has the same error that has fucked X11 for years. | Apr 05 10:55 |
| oiaohm | Are you that foolish that you cannot see it DaemonFC | Apr 05 10:55 |
| DaemonFC | Every distribution is including Pulseaudio | Apr 05 10:56 |
| oiaohm | How to bring old style X11 to its kness. Give X11 low cpu access piority and applications high. | Apr 05 10:56 |
| DaemonFC | because it's better than having apps fighting each other for the sound system | Apr 05 10:56 |
| DaemonFC | and simply crashing | Apr 05 10:56 |
| oiaohm | Not every distribution activates it stuplidy by default. | Apr 05 10:56 |
| oiaohm | Dmix sorts out applications fighting for sound. | Apr 05 10:56 |
| DaemonFC | You're right, there are distros like Debian that don't know how to access my headset | Apr 05 10:57 |
| oiaohm | Only distributions that remove dmix like ubuntu have problems with pulseaudio removed. | Apr 05 10:57 |
| DaemonFC | then when I get it working, route half the audio to my sound card anyway | Apr 05 10:57 |
| oiaohm | Its a caused problem. | Apr 05 10:57 |
| oiaohm | Pulseaudio it a sitting duck. | Apr 05 10:58 |
| oiaohm | Its design makes it such. | Apr 05 10:58 |
| oiaohm | Removing it and forcing people to go back to the drawing board and come up with a design that could work will have to happen at some point. | Apr 05 10:59 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: funny that you say nothing about Vista and Vista7's bad audio stack | Apr 05 11:01 |
| schestowitz | DRM rendered it junk. | Apr 05 11:01 |
| DaemonFC | Vista's audio stack is preferable to Linux with no Pulseaudio | Apr 05 11:03 |
| DaemonFC | Linux with no Pulseaudio no worky | Apr 05 11:03 |
| DaemonFC | either that or you have to stand on your head to get it to do simple tasks | Apr 05 11:03 |
| DaemonFC | like using the headset | Apr 05 11:04 |
| schestowitz | Works for me | Apr 05 11:04 |
| schestowitz | You must be using something archaic | Apr 05 11:04 |
| DaemonFC | even Vista can use the headset without me screwing around with asoundconf set-default-card, editing three configuration files, and logging out and back in | Apr 05 11:04 |
| DaemonFC | then reversing that to get my sound card to work again | Apr 05 11:05 |
| DaemonFC | Pulseaudio is smart enough to see that I have the headset plugged in and switch to that | Apr 05 11:05 |
| DaemonFC | gee, wow, a sound system that belongs in the 21st century | Apr 05 11:05 |
| DaemonFC | how nice! | Apr 05 11:05 |
| DaemonFC | but if you prefer a sound system from 1995, by all means, it's your system | Apr 05 11:06 |
| oiaohm | Simple point here do you want another X11 fuck up DaemonFC | Apr 05 11:07 |
| DaemonFC | how is my X server fucked up? | Apr 05 11:07 |
| DaemonFC | do tell | Apr 05 11:07 |
| oiaohm | X11 design of DRI 1 | Apr 05 11:07 |
| oiaohm | Is completely screwed up. | Apr 05 11:08 |
| oiaohm | Pulseaudio is basically audio replication of it. | Apr 05 11:08 |
| DaemonFC | I'd rather deal with Pulseaudio bugs than ALSA without Pulseaudio | Apr 05 11:08 |
| DaemonFC | which is pure dogshit | Apr 05 11:08 |
| MinceR | ubuntu removes dmix? strange, mine didn't. | Apr 05 11:08 |
| oiaohm | Not all audio cards need dmix MinceR | Apr 05 11:08 |
| MinceR | i'm pretty sure intel hda does | Apr 05 11:08 |
| MinceR | since it doesn't work with some games using OSS like Unreal Tournament. | Apr 05 11:09 |
| DaemonFC | ryan@ryan-desktop:~$ lsmod |grep hda_intel | Apr 05 11:09 |
| DaemonFC | snd_hda_intel 29384 2 | Apr 05 11:09 |
| oiaohm | DRI 1 major design flaw. | Apr 05 11:09 |
| DaemonFC | oh gee | Apr 05 11:09 |
| oiaohm | Is that everything has to go through X11 server. | Apr 05 11:09 |
| oiaohm | Even if X11 server alterations are not required. | Apr 05 11:10 |
| MinceR | and so does the AudioTrak Prodigy 7.1 HiFi | Apr 05 11:10 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, though if you have $100 to give me, I'll go out and buy a card with proper hardware mixing | Apr 05 11:10 |
| oiaohm | DRI 1 | Apr 05 11:10 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Apr 05 11:10 |
| oiaohm | suxs because of it. | Apr 05 11:10 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: or you could just use dmix. | Apr 05 11:10 |
| oiaohm | DRI 2 differnce is lower subsystems and upper level works as one. | Apr 05 11:10 |
| MinceR | especially with a distro that enables it by default. :> | Apr 05 11:10 |
| DaemonFC | that's the thing | Apr 05 11:11 |
| DaemonFC | Gentoo is insane | Apr 05 11:11 |
| DaemonFC | I hate RPM | Apr 05 11:11 |
| oiaohm | So when something does not need X11 alterations it can go straight past X11. | Apr 05 11:11 |
| oiaohm | Straight to the hardware. | Apr 05 11:11 |
| DaemonFC | and Debian is fucking old and bizarre | Apr 05 11:11 |
| MinceR | kubuntu works for me | Apr 05 11:11 |
| DaemonFC | that leaves Ubuntu | Apr 05 11:11 |
| MinceR | afaik debian isn't so old nowadays | Apr 05 11:11 |
| oiaohm | So way lower lag | Apr 05 11:11 |
| DaemonFC | Debian is using an old kernel, if you build 2.6.29, it comes up with no sound somehow | Apr 05 11:12 |
| DaemonFC | fuck if I know | Apr 05 11:12 |
| oiaohm | That is strange sound here works perfectly with 2.6.29 and debian. | Apr 05 11:12 |
| MinceR | even if it isn't enabled, you could configure it. | Apr 05 11:12 |
| DaemonFC | and the version of GNOME it is using has old programs that don't like my hardware, webcam for instance | Apr 05 11:12 |
| DaemonFC | Cheese crashes and won't access it | Apr 05 11:12 |
| DaemonFC | Camorama crashes and won't access it | Apr 05 11:13 |
| oiaohm | Some how you must have missed ticked something like disablign audio completely in kernel DaemonFC | Apr 05 11:13 |
| oiaohm | Its only 1 check box. | Apr 05 11:13 |
| DaemonFC | even though it is fully UVC compliant | Apr 05 11:13 |
| DaemonFC | and no other distro chokes on it | Apr 05 11:13 |
| DaemonFC | how the fuck do you miss that? | Apr 05 11:13 |
| DaemonFC | it's importing the config file of the running kernel? | Apr 05 11:13 |
| *kentma (n=user@ellandroad.demon.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | Apr 05 11:13 | |
| DaemonFC | it should support anything the running kernel does | Apr 05 11:14 |
| oiaohm | If ubuntu had not altered the name of the audio setting for a few sound cards. | Apr 05 11:14 |
| oiaohm | It would work. | Apr 05 11:14 |
| DaemonFC | I have no idea what Debian is thinking, but it's full of bugs and completely inappropriate for a desktop | Apr 05 11:14 |
| oiaohm | Debian is slightly different. | Apr 05 11:14 |
| oiaohm | Watch that you did not import server kernel settings. | Apr 05 11:15 |
| DaemonFC | Debian defaults to server settings | Apr 05 11:15 |
| oiaohm | Audio there required modprobing a few more modules. | Apr 05 11:15 |
| DaemonFC | I know how to compile a kernel | Apr 05 11:15 |
| DaemonFC | I also know that Debian's kernel is fucked | Apr 05 11:15 |
| oiaohm | Its not the worse kernel out there. | Apr 05 11:16 |
| DaemonFC | well, I'm sure it isn't | Apr 05 11:16 |
| DaemonFC | but it's one of the more ridiculous ones I've seen | Apr 05 11:16 |
| oiaohm | At least debian building is not a wall of error messages. | Apr 05 11:16 |
| oiaohm | Like fedoras. | Apr 05 11:17 |
| oiaohm | Last count when I built Fedoras was 30000 error messages. | Apr 05 11:17 |
| oiaohm | correction warning messages. | Apr 05 11:17 |
| oiaohm | You are wondering how in crap it runs. | Apr 05 11:17 |
| DaemonFC | oh, there's tones of compiler warnings on Debian and Ubuntu | Apr 05 11:17 |
| DaemonFC | are you kidding me? | Apr 05 11:17 |
| oiaohm | Nop. | Apr 05 11:17 |
| DaemonFC | *tons | Apr 05 11:17 |
| oiaohm | Debian and Ubuntu have less than Fedora. | Apr 05 11:18 |
| DaemonFC | hah | Apr 05 11:18 |
| DaemonFC | doubt that | Apr 05 11:18 |
| oiaohm | There are less | Apr 05 11:18 |
| oiaohm | Fedora currently holds the record for them. | Apr 05 11:18 |
| DaemonFC | I really really doubt that | Apr 05 11:18 |
| DaemonFC | there's enough compiler warnings building a vanilla kernel to scare anyone | Apr 05 11:18 |
| DaemonFC | how could Fedora be worse? | Apr 05 11:19 |
| oiaohm | Remember Fedora has more patches not approved for main branch. | Apr 05 11:19 |
| oiaohm | Than any other kernel. | Apr 05 11:19 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, well, Red Hat is probably the largest corporate contributor to Linux | Apr 05 11:19 |
| oiaohm | Its like this is a prototype feature lets add it anyhow. | Apr 05 11:19 |
| DaemonFC | over 70% of Linux development is done by paid programmers | Apr 05 11:19 |
| oiaohm | Not like anyone using fedora for anything important. | Apr 05 11:19 |
| DaemonFC | working at companies | Apr 05 11:19 |
| DaemonFC | It's how things get done | Apr 05 11:20 |
| DaemonFC | just be happy that it's getting done | Apr 05 11:20 |
| DaemonFC | and watch the blinkenlights | Apr 05 11:20 |
| oiaohm | vanilla kernel warning numbers are fairly low. | Apr 05 11:20 |
| DaemonFC | bull | Apr 05 11:20 |
| oiaohm | I mean in type DaemonFC | Apr 05 11:21 |
| oiaohm | Fedora has wrong struct to wrong struct messages and all. | Apr 05 11:21 |
| oiaohm | Stuff that if it still works its more good luck than good coding. | Apr 05 11:22 |
| DaemonFC | Fedora is not unreliable | Apr 05 11:22 |
| DaemonFC | most bugs are trivial and fixed soon | Apr 05 11:22 |
| oiaohm | Did you skip building the stuff in the crap tree with the vanillla. | Apr 05 11:23 |
| DaemonFC | a distro like Ubuntu just commits to the same set of bugs | Apr 05 11:23 |
| DaemonFC | for the next 6 months | Apr 05 11:23 |
| oiaohm | 95 percent of the messages in vanilla come from the staging tree. | Apr 05 11:23 |
| DaemonFC | I don't build staging drivers | Apr 05 11:23 |
| oiaohm | Drivers put forward to be looked at and cleaned up. | Apr 05 11:23 |
| DaemonFC | I don't have any hardware that needs them | Apr 05 11:23 |
| DaemonFC | and they taint the kernel | Apr 05 11:23 |
| DaemonFC | I've built my kernel to have the lowest latency I can get | Apr 05 11:25 |
| DaemonFC | so that timer-based Pulseaudio becomes desirable | Apr 05 11:25 |
| oiaohm | So its built with real-time tree merged. | Apr 05 11:25 |
| oiaohm | Or not that far on lowest latency. | Apr 05 11:25 |
| DaemonFC | the latency on a default Ubuntu kernel is awful | Apr 05 11:26 |
| DaemonFC | they compile it to get good battery life even though you're probably not on a laptop | Apr 05 11:26 |
| DaemonFC | so they have less kernels to maintain | Apr 05 11:26 |
| oiaohm | So you mean the tickless kernel that pulseaudio hates. | Apr 05 11:27 |
| oiaohm | Really like to know why jackaudio works fine with it and pulseaudio has issues. | Apr 05 11:27 |
| DaemonFC | I disabled tickless | Apr 05 11:27 |
| DaemonFC | iccckth | Apr 05 11:27 |
| DaemonFC | who cares? | Apr 05 11:27 |
| DaemonFC | Tickless is fucking stupid | Apr 05 11:27 |
| oiaohm | Thinking both provides real time audio siupport. | Apr 05 11:27 |
| DaemonFC | if you're not using a laptop | Apr 05 11:27 |
| oiaohm | Pulseaudio not working with it is a coding defect in pulseaudio, | Apr 05 11:28 |
| DaemonFC | Again with the I don't want Tickless anyway | Apr 05 11:28 |
| oiaohm | Because tickless should be having no effect. | Apr 05 11:28 |
| DaemonFC | so I don't care why Pulse hates it | Apr 05 11:28 |
| DaemonFC | 0.9.15 works about as well either way | Apr 05 11:28 |
| DaemonFC | but I don't want Tickless | Apr 05 11:28 |
| oiaohm | Because tickless will become important when other real time support features get added. | Apr 05 11:29 |
| DaemonFC | tickless jsut causes latency and other undesirable behavior | Apr 05 11:29 |
| oiaohm | Yes features that completely shatter pulseaudio. | Apr 05 11:29 |
| oiaohm | That tickless does not happen says you have informed kernel of need | Apr 05 11:29 |
| oiaohm | Pulseaudio is failing to do that for some reason. | Apr 05 11:29 |
| DaemonFC | I disabled Tickless and set HZ=1000 | Apr 05 11:29 |
| oiaohm | If you don't inform kernel of need something with high access rights to you with real time can push your process of the ticker any how. | Apr 05 11:30 |
| oiaohm | So you don't run a real time patched kernel so never have seen that. | Apr 05 11:30 |
| DaemonFC | meh, I'm used to working around various stupidity | Apr 05 11:30 |
| DaemonFC | disabling Speedstep for example | Apr 05 11:30 |
| DaemonFC | have to do that or it won't allow my overclocking | Apr 05 11:31 |
| oiaohm | Guess what linked to why Tickless stops. | Apr 05 11:31 |
| oiaohm | Same defect. | Apr 05 11:31 |
| oiaohm | You are patching stacks and stacks of places. | Apr 05 11:31 |
| oiaohm | Fix 1 place make about 4 disappear. | Apr 05 11:31 |
| oiaohm | From ever being a problem. | Apr 05 11:31 |
| DaemonFC | CPU Frequency scaling doesn't save power | Apr 05 11:31 |
| DaemonFC | it just lowers the CPU temp | Apr 05 11:31 |
| oiaohm | and guess what. | Apr 05 11:32 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel only uses it for CPU over temp. | Apr 05 11:32 |
| oiaohm | Instead it uses tickless to save power. | Apr 05 11:32 |
| DaemonFC | GNOME scales it On Demand | Apr 05 11:32 |
| DaemonFC | no matter what the kernel defaults to | Apr 05 11:32 |
| DaemonFC | those stupid fucks at GNOME | Apr 05 11:32 |
| DaemonFC | grrr | Apr 05 11:32 |
| oiaohm | The interface for userspace is being removed. | Apr 05 11:33 |
| DaemonFC | thank god | Apr 05 11:33 |
| DaemonFC | it should NEVER be handed to user space | Apr 05 11:33 |
| oiaohm | You can also block it by changing permissions in proc. | Apr 05 11:33 |
| DaemonFC | I disabled Speedstep in the BIOS | Apr 05 11:33 |
| DaemonFC | lets see GNOME overrule me now | Apr 05 11:33 |
| DaemonFC | B-) | Apr 05 11:33 |
| oiaohm | I added a selinux rule. | Apr 05 11:34 |
| DaemonFC | I could have also removed it from the kernel | Apr 05 11:34 |
| oiaohm | Nothing may access that file. | Apr 05 11:34 |
| DaemonFC | CPU Frequency scaling is stupid | Apr 05 11:34 |
| oiaohm | Yet it still allows kernel to use it in case of overheat. | Apr 05 11:34 |
| DaemonFC | well, all it sees in my case is 1.6 and 1.87 Ghz | Apr 05 11:36 |
| DaemonFC | even though I set the BIOS to overclock the CPU | Apr 05 11:36 |
| DaemonFC | to 2.33 Ghz | Apr 05 11:36 |
| DaemonFC | so if I have it enabled at all it scales the CPU to one of those two | Apr 05 11:36 |
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| oiaohm | Ok that is stupid. | Apr 05 11:45 |
| oiaohm | Person wondering why Linux kernel is steeping in of course it will. | Apr 05 11:45 |
| schestowitz | Randy passed away.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ-Ixbi... | Apr 05 12:36 |
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| oiaohm | He is going to be missed. | Apr 05 13:04 |
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| schestowitz | it's an example of a person who saw fame just before dying (or after) | Apr 05 13:13 |
| schestowitz | Eric Blair is another example | Apr 05 13:13 |
| schestowitz | maybe Alan Turing too | Apr 05 13:14 |
| schestowitz | bbl | Apr 05 13:29 |
| oiaohm | Even before he was dieing some of his write up on things were great. | Apr 05 13:30 |
| oiaohm | Known to be dead man walking does have some advantages. | Apr 05 13:35 |
| oiaohm | Like finding out how famous you are. | Apr 05 13:36 |
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| _Hicham_ | Hi Roy! | Apr 05 14:28 |
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| _Hicham_ | is there anyone in the room? | Apr 05 14:54 |
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| schestowitz | I'll do some Microsoft posts | Apr 05 16:00 |
| schestowitz | They are deeply screwed this week,. | Apr 05 16:00 |
| Eruaran | Really ? | Apr 05 16:12 |
| schestowitz | yes, I'll do posts | Apr 05 16:18 |
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| _Hicham_ | hi there | Apr 05 16:24 |
| schestowitz | Hey | Apr 05 16:29 |
| _Hicham_ | how r u doing Roy? | Apr 05 16:30 |
| _Hicham_ | did u go to the gym? | Apr 05 16:30 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Apr 05 16:37 |
| _Hicham_ | did u ever try byethost.com? | Apr 05 16:41 |
| schestowitz | OK, done. Microsoft is sliding pretty steadily.. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/05/... | Apr 05 16:48 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: yes, I know Bytehost | Apr 05 16:48 |
| _Hicham_ | how do u rate it? | Apr 05 16:48 |
| Eruaran | I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is. I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat. - Rebecca West, 1913 | Apr 05 16:56 |
| Omar87 | By the way! I was surprised today that finally, a university in Jordan has officially opened a Python course.. ! :) | Apr 05 16:58 |
| Omar87 | I was so amazed! :D | Apr 05 16:58 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: it's considered good. | Apr 05 16:59 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: about time. | Apr 05 17:00 |
| schestowitz | I'm only getting started on Microsoft. There's more: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/05/fa... | Apr 05 17:00 |
| schestowitz | That last one uses rubbish figures, but nonetheless.. | Apr 05 17:00 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : it has a 50 MB database, and 5GB of disk storage | Apr 05 17:05 |
| _Hicham_ | all for free | Apr 05 17:05 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: Excuse me? | Apr 05 17:08 |
| Eruaran | I find Microsoft's "Stirling" a fascinating idea... | Apr 05 17:21 |
| Eruaran | Fascinating that this corporation won't make a reasonably secure operating system but will enter that false economy of which the likes of Norton 360 are a part, with its own product for their own platform... | Apr 05 17:22 |
| Eruaran | If they ever do release it I think history will judge it as one of the most bizarre and topsy turvy moments in IT history | Apr 05 17:23 |
| _Hicham_ | Microsoft already have OneCare suite | Apr 05 17:25 |
| _Hicham_ | which works on their Windows Live Toolbar when browsing with Internet Explorer | Apr 05 17:25 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: I'm just doing many posts about MSFT ATM | Apr 05 17:27 |
| schestowitz | Eruaran: Linux has had "Stirling" since 1991 | Apr 05 17:27 |
| schestowitz | It was free, too | Apr 05 17:27 |
| Eruaran | OneCare was discontinued | Apr 05 17:31 |
| Eruaran | I think I'm a bit unclear on what "Stirling" is... Is it a standalone thing like any of the security suites for Windows ? | Apr 05 17:43 |
| _Hicham_ | nothing will beat big suites | Apr 05 17:47 |
| _Hicham_ | like KIS | Apr 05 17:47 |
| schestowitz | I wrote a quick update on ways in which Microsoft harms the US: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/05/m... | Apr 05 17:52 |
| schestowitz | The joys of Apple: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/0... | Apr 05 17:59 |
| Eruaran | So much for freewheeling capitalism... | Apr 05 18:17 |
| Eruaran | Or a fee market | Apr 05 18:17 |
| _Hicham_ | Linux needs games | Apr 05 18:18 |
| _Hicham_ | more games bundling | Apr 05 18:18 |
| _Hicham_ | I mean commercial ones | Apr 05 18:18 |
| schestowitz | Eruaran: if not good for the telecom cartel | Apr 05 18:18 |
| schestowitz | So it should be banned | Apr 05 18:18 |
| schestowitz | same with the Internet | Apr 05 18:19 |
| schestowitz | It's bad. | Apr 05 18:19 |
| schestowitz | For newspapers, the copyright cartel... | Apr 05 18:19 |
| schestowitz | Now, Luddites couldn't destroy those machines, could they? | Apr 05 18:19 |
| schestowitz | Monopolising people's speech for profit... now we have the Internet for chat | Apr 05 18:19 |
| Eruaran | They think they have some God given right to rule, suppressing disruptive technologies if they think they can. | Apr 05 18:20 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Apr 05 18:20 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft too | Apr 05 18:21 |
| schestowitz | They use patents to enforce it | Apr 05 18:21 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft invented the GUI, the word processor, the Internet and the file system | Apr 05 18:21 |
| schestowitz | So Linux should just vanish | Apr 05 18:21 |
| Eruaran | I'd like to see Android on lots of new phones | Apr 05 18:24 |
| Eruaran | And the Android Marketplace kill Apples App Store | Apr 05 18:25 |
| Eruaran | Break that controlling nonsense | Apr 05 18:25 |
| schestowitz | How libre is it really? | Apr 05 18:31 |
| schestowitz | I get the impression that Google locks down Linux, and it also excludes GNU and polices what goes on phones. | Apr 05 18:32 |
| Eruaran | I read the license agreement | Apr 05 18:32 |
| Eruaran | For contributing to Android itself | Apr 05 18:32 |
| Eruaran | It seemed ok | Apr 05 18:33 |
| Eruaran | It included a clause that basically said that if any contributor tries to sue or act against another on the grounds of patents... basically infiltrate and try and attack from within, they lose commit rights | Apr 05 18:34 |
| Eruaran | Google acts as a gatekeeper | Apr 05 18:34 |
| Eruaran | If someone has a claim against another contributor they can't join | Apr 05 18:35 |
| Eruaran | So basically you can't attack it and be part of it at the same time | Apr 05 18:36 |
| Eruaran | kind of GPLv3ish | Apr 05 18:36 |
| Eruaran | I should probably have another look at it | Apr 05 18:37 |
| Eruaran | But it seemed ok at the time when I read it | Apr 05 18:38 |
| schestowitz | I think there was a controversy, but maybe it was Chrome. Some EULA was changed. | Apr 05 18:38 |
| Eruaran | that was Chrome | Apr 05 18:38 |
| schestowitz | Windows/Office users are naked [SFW]: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/... | Apr 05 18:39 |
| schestowitz | Eruaran: I know about Chrome, but I think there was something about Android too. iPhone had several (NDA issue for starters) | Apr 05 18:39 |
| Eruaran | http://source.android.com/license | Apr 05 18:42 |
| Eruaran | http://source.android.com/license/individ... | Apr 05 18:42 |
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| Eruaran | Google seems to favor the Apache 2.0 license | Apr 05 18:49 |
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| schestowitz | Google loves Apache | Apr 05 18:52 |
| schestowitz | IBM loves Eclipse licence | Apr 05 18:52 |
| schestowitz | Sun loves CDDL | Apr 05 18:52 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft loves proprietary (and ms-[trojan]) | Apr 05 18:52 |
| Eruaran | Microsoft loves Poisoned Source | Apr 05 18:52 |
| Eruaran | Call it the "MSPSL" | Apr 05 18:53 |
| Eruaran | "MSPSL: You code, we own, you pay us to own your code or we sue". | Apr 05 18:54 |
| schestowitz | "Gun control has not worked in D.C. The only people who have guns are criminals. We have the strictest gun laws in the nation and one of the highest murder rates. It's quicker to pull your Smith & Wesson than to dial 911 if you're being robbed." | Apr 05 19:08 |
| DaemonFC | Trigger happy lunatics | Apr 05 19:08 |
| DaemonFC | the NRA and their damned lobbyists | Apr 05 19:08 |
| DaemonFC | they jsut want to sell guns to both the criminals and the peopel that now "need protection" | Apr 05 19:09 |
| DaemonFC | either way, they win | Apr 05 19:09 |
| DaemonFC | who cares who gets murdered? | Apr 05 19:09 |
| schestowitz | "More and more I come to value charity and love of one's fellow being above everything else... All our lauded technological progress--our very civilization--is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal." --Albert Einstein | Apr 05 19:09 |
| DaemonFC | they'll supply both sides cause they make the money | Apr 05 19:09 |
| DaemonFC | and they're not the ones being murdered | Apr 05 19:09 |
| DaemonFC | the NRA is the most despicable group of fascist fringe lunatics this side of organized Christianity | Apr 05 19:10 |
| Eruaran | ? | Apr 05 19:10 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: Memories of Microsoft corruption in Hungary: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/05/... | Apr 05 19:13 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: Novell claims to have usability focus groups | Apr 05 19:16 |
| DaemonFC | so where did they get SLAB, Yast2, and the GNOEM Control Panel they use? | Apr 05 19:16 |
| DaemonFC | it's more like Choose Your Own Adventure | Apr 05 19:16 |
| DaemonFC | I was working on an OpenSuse 11.1 system the other day and I couldn't find *anything* because it was so poorly laid out | Apr 05 19:17 |
| Eruaran | That's becuase they take the work of others and screw it up | Apr 05 19:18 |
| DaemonFC | you open their GNOME menu, and it unfolds into four pages of crap, you open this panel that has all the applications grouped, and look through 50 icons | Apr 05 19:19 |
| DaemonFC | oh right, Yast, you click that and ther's 100 more icons | Apr 05 19:19 |
| Eruaran | they do the same thing to KDE | Apr 05 19:20 |
| Eruaran | They neutered KDE's System Settings and put everything in Yast | Apr 05 19:20 |
| Eruaran | They renamed System Settings to 'Personal Settings; | Apr 05 19:21 |
| Eruaran | totally bastardized and screwed up | Apr 05 19:21 |
| Eruaran | The user is left confused between two control centre type tools | Apr 05 19:21 |
| Eruaran | The KDE team did a lot of work on usability and Novell just gutted it | Apr 05 19:22 |
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| schestowitz | DaemonFC: I don't use any of these | Apr 05 19:24 |
| schestowitz | (SLAB, Yast2, and the GNOME Control Panel) | Apr 05 19:24 |
| schestowitz | Someone told me that "Dell recommends migration to Windows Server 2008". Where does it say recommend? | Apr 05 19:27 |
| schestowitz | Can I find out if it's another "recommends" scam? | Apr 05 19:28 |
| schestowitz | http://simplifyvirtualization.com/pa... | Apr 05 19:28 |
| Eruaran | Of course it is | Apr 05 19:28 |
| schestowitz | "For many enterprises, the biggest hurdle in upgrading to the Windows Server 2008 OS is the complexity of the migration process. Dell helps simplify IT and reduce risk with comprehensive service offerings and a validated, repeatable approach that includes seamless support for integrated Microsoft applications on Dell servers. " | Apr 05 19:28 |
| Eruaran | If you don't do the ads just right according to Microsoft's wishes you don't get your money | Apr 05 19:28 |
| schestowitz | Apparently they are once again using the IDG/IDC shills (see icon on page) | Apr 05 19:28 |
| schestowitz | The three musketeers do the kickbacks. | Apr 05 19:29 |
| Eruaran | Microsoft controls things right down to the size of the Windows logo on your advertising material | Apr 05 19:30 |
| Eruaran | When you make them happy, they give you money. | Apr 05 19:30 |
| Eruaran | Its a payola system. | Apr 05 19:31 |
| Eruaran | You submit your ad to Microsoft and they tell you if it meets their requirements. | Apr 05 19:31 |
| Eruaran | I'm not joking. | Apr 05 19:31 |
| DaemonFC | OK, good for Dell | Apr 05 19:32 |
| DaemonFC | they're also like the only major OEM selling machines with Linux at a reasonable price | Apr 05 19:33 |
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| Balrog_ | hey everyone | Apr 05 19:38 |
| Balrog_ | << http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/... | Apr 05 19:38 |
| schestowitz | Yup | Apr 05 19:46 |
| schestowitz | I posted this in BN | Apr 05 19:46 |
| Balrog_ | ok. | Apr 05 19:48 |
| Balrog_ | " T-Mobile Germany Banning Skype for iPhone" is more about the telecom providers than apple | Apr 05 19:51 |
| schestowitz | Kickbacks in Australia? Enquiring minds want to know - why no Linux for NSW high school laptops? < http://www.itwire.com/content/vi... > | Apr 05 19:53 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: it's like saying that Apple does not support DRM; the media companies do | Apr 05 19:54 |
| schestowitz | It takes two to tango | Apr 05 19:54 |
| Balrog_ | well, apple didn't comment about T-Mobile in Germany (yet) | Apr 05 19:55 |
| schestowitz | skype em to ask :-) | Apr 05 20:13 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : do u use skype? | Apr 05 20:18 |
| MinceR | how are you gentlemen !! | Apr 05 20:23 |
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| _Hicham_ | wb MinceR | Apr 05 20:30 |
| schestowitz | hehe.. ""Are software patents a real threat? I don't think so. I think they are a pain in the ass for all software. [...] it could well be that the other day you tell people that bikinis are more dangerous than patents for software developers. Who knows?!"" | Apr 05 20:49 |
| schestowitz | "And remember, a bunch of crazy software nerds and Mr. Pilch, scholars, patent experts and some external freedom to knowledge groupies. Lobbyists like Lueders, Mingorance and Zuck really pissed us off back then. Today we would just laugh and find them bad performers, back then we thought they were the lords of the scene." | Apr 05 20:50 |
| schestowitz | "You had a former communist as Lueders speaking in the name of the industry and depict us as leftists who don't want to pay for software... and that really offended us. The main task was to get the media paradigm right which took quite long and persistent work." | Apr 05 20:50 |
| schestowitz | "To break the misconceptions of the EPO terminology. To expose the patent lies. To get a free market friendly solution. We were nightmare lobbyists but we were "real" and wanted an honest solution. Even back then the patent system was the worst enemy, not the lobbyists as decoration." | Apr 05 20:50 |
| schestowitz | "Microsoft should have asked for comments on their OSP. "...there is a problem" is a fallacy." | Apr 05 20:51 |
| Balrog_ | :( | Apr 05 20:52 |
| schestowitz | Kubuntuforums.net down for over a day < http://ubuntuforums.org/showthrea... > | Apr 05 21:00 |
| schestowitz | "Our repositories fell last night. That’s really bad news folks" http://opengeu.intilinux.com/News/Voci/2009/4/... | Apr 05 21:05 |
| DaemonFC | heh | Apr 05 21:09 |
| Balrog_ | :X | Apr 05 21:09 |
| DaemonFC | and all five E17 users noticed? | Apr 05 21:09 |
| DaemonFC | *rimshot* | Apr 05 21:09 |
| schestowitz | http://www.confickerworkinggroup.org/in... | Apr 05 21:13 |
| Balrog_ | "Normal/Not Infected by Conficker" | Apr 05 21:14 |
| Balrog_ | non-windows, so obviously | Apr 05 21:14 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft blog on another migratioto msmono: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2... | Apr 05 21:15 |
| schestowitz | Some pretty depressing news for Microsoft at the moment: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/... | Apr 05 21:17 |
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| Balrog_ | http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/... is your creation? | Apr 05 21:36 |
| schestowitz | yes, the modification only though | Apr 05 21:37 |
| schestowitz | PR Wars: Apple vs Microsoft...Does Linux need to even bother? < http://www.tuxmachines.org/nod... > | Apr 05 21:37 |
| schestowitz | IBM employee on "On the Fate of Solaris" (of none): http://daveshields.wordpress.com/20... | Apr 05 22:00 |
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| Balrog_ | schestowitz: combining solaris technologies with linux (under the GPL) would be great. | Apr 05 22:07 |
| schestowitz | Just inatlled ManiaDrive on my main machine. It's a nice little game. Runs nicely but not on dual | Apr 05 22:08 |
| Balrog_ | cool | Apr 05 22:08 |
| schestowitz | I get too poor a framerate on dual. | Apr 05 22:11 |
| schestowitz | I used to want to play Max Payne (2003) on multi-head, but it just duplicated the image. Same with Enemy Territory... | Apr 05 22:12 |
| schestowitz | UBUNTU article ‘El Pais’ Newspaper http://fabiofilho.wordpress.com/... | Apr 05 22:17 |
| schestowitz | "Switch to linux [...] I've got to tell you, I'm never going back to Windows" http://lionofjudah.squarespace.com/... | Apr 05 22:18 |
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| schestowitz | "I am quite astounded at how poorly Windows is coming out against ubuntu." http://frivolityrules.blogspot.com/200... | Apr 05 22:23 |
| MinceR | why is he astounded? windows compares poorly to any real OS :> | Apr 05 22:24 |
| Balrog_ | schestowitz: what's a good linux distro for a 500 MHz P4 | Apr 05 22:24 |
| Balrog_ | ? | Apr 05 22:24 |
| Balrog_ | err, P3 | Apr 05 22:25 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: Maybe that Windows is an OS | Apr 05 22:25 |
| Balrog_ | or MinceR ** | Apr 05 22:25 |
| schestowitz | it's like calling a cheeseburger supper | Apr 05 22:25 |
| Balrog_ | anyone? | Apr 05 22:25 |
| schestowitz | DSL? | Apr 05 22:26 |
| schestowitz | What's it for? | Apr 05 22:26 |
| MinceR | Balrog_: i'd try ubuntu with some lightweight DE or WM | Apr 05 22:26 |
| schestowitz | ELive too is good | Apr 05 22:26 |
| MinceR | (if KDE isn't fast enough ;) ) | Apr 05 22:26 |
| schestowitz | Runs on 200MHz... screams on it | Apr 05 22:26 |
| Balrog_ | Xubuntu, Fluxubuntu? | Apr 05 22:26 |
| schestowitz | How much RAM? | Apr 05 22:26 |
| MinceR | i tend to run icewm on my second x server for full-screen games | Apr 05 22:26 |
| schestowitz | No compiz? :-D | Apr 05 22:27 |
| oiaohm | DSL works good in a 233 pent. | Apr 05 22:27 |
| schestowitz | Game in translucent wobbly window to drive X mad. | Apr 05 22:27 |
| oiaohm | Hopefully that will disappear soon. | Apr 05 22:28 |
| MinceR | no compiz yet | Apr 05 22:28 |
| oiaohm | Most people don't understand how important fixing the graphical stack is. | Apr 05 22:28 |
| MinceR | once i manage to upgrade to intrepid or jaunty, i'll try kde4.2 | Apr 05 22:28 |
| MinceR | and if it isn't good enough, i'll try compiz | Apr 05 22:28 |
| oiaohm | When the graphical stack is fixed people are going to go what the heck with windows. | Apr 05 22:28 |
| MinceR | :) | Apr 05 22:28 |
| oiaohm | General Processing GPU. | Apr 05 22:29 |
| MinceR | this needs to be fixed if it can be | Apr 05 22:29 |
| oiaohm | So video decoding in GPU Virus scanning in GPU. | Apr 05 22:29 |
| oiaohm | And the list goes on. | Apr 05 22:29 |
| oiaohm | Fastest processor chip in most computers is the GPU on the video card. | Apr 05 22:29 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : and it is the one to drive the chip hot | Apr 05 22:34 |
| _Hicham_ | the whole pc get hot | Apr 05 22:35 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.youtube.com/wa... | Apr 05 22:35 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Apr 05 22:35 |
| oiaohm | Yep reason why video cards come with decated vents. | Apr 05 22:35 |
| _Hicham_ | the "developers" remix of Ballmer is great | Apr 05 22:36 |
| _Hicham_ | http://www.youtube.com/wat... | Apr 05 22:37 |
| _Hicham_ | Ballmer is a lost talent in showbizz | Apr 05 22:38 |
| _Hicham_ | Ballmer can be an actor easily | Apr 05 22:38 |
| MinceR | a one-role actor | Apr 05 22:38 |
| MinceR | but then again, there are good one-role actors :) | Apr 05 22:39 |
| _Hicham_ | like Bill Gates himself | Apr 05 22:39 |
| _Hicham_ | he is a great actor too | Apr 05 22:39 |
| MinceR | i don't know his role | Apr 05 22:41 |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?... | Apr 05 22:42 |
| schestowitz | When will it be dead? | Apr 05 22:42 |
| DaemonFC | you know Microsoft used to have a UNIX? | Apr 05 22:44 |
| schestowitz | Xenis | Apr 05 22:44 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC : on its hotmail servers | Apr 05 22:44 |
| DaemonFC | it had bugs in the C compiler so you had to rewrite chunks of code to get things to compile | Apr 05 22:44 |
| DaemonFC | no | Apr 05 22:44 |
| schestowitz | *Hehe. Typo. | Apr 05 22:44 |
| DaemonFC | I'm talking about Xenix | Apr 05 22:44 |
| _Hicham_ | ah | Apr 05 22:44 |
| DaemonFC | which became SCO UNIXWARE | Apr 05 22:45 |
| schestowitz | Xenis the impotent Xenix | Apr 05 22:45 |
| _Hicham_ | MS has a long story with buying | Apr 05 22:47 |
| _Hicham_ | MS is a commercial entity | Apr 05 22:47 |
| _Hicham_ | they basically buy and sell | Apr 05 22:48 |
| MinceR | their old tactic was selling something they didn't have though :> | Apr 05 22:48 |
| MinceR | well, it still is | Apr 05 22:48 |
| MinceR | selling licenses to patents that aren't infringed on :> | Apr 05 22:48 |
| oiaohm | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped... Xenix is not record in the Unix history map at all. | Apr 05 22:49 |
| oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix Xenix was not Microsofts. | Apr 05 22:50 |
| oiaohm | It was a licence copy of Unixware | Apr 05 22:50 |
| DaemonFC | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix | Apr 05 22:50 |
| DaemonFC | yeah | Apr 05 22:51 |
| DaemonFC | that | Apr 05 22:51 |
| DaemonFC | AT&T licensed UNIX code to a lot of different places | Apr 05 22:51 |
| DaemonFC | but they acted like the name UNIX was special | Apr 05 22:51 |
| DaemonFC | so they didn't license that | Apr 05 22:51 |
| _Hicham_ | normal | Apr 05 22:51 |
| DaemonFC | so XENIX was UNIX System V with Microsoft additions | Apr 05 22:52 |
| DaemonFC | but it kind of dead ended after they sold it to SCO | Apr 05 22:52 |
| DaemonFC | Xenix was really the only way to run UNIX on a PC in the 1980s | Apr 05 22:53 |
| Balrog_ | MacTheRipper <http://www.ripdifferent.com/for... violates GPL | Apr 05 22:53 |
| Balrog_ | links to libdvdcss and they want $50 and it's not FOSS | Apr 05 22:53 |
| Balrog_ | it's totally proprietary | Apr 05 22:53 |
| oiaohm | SCO gutted it. | Apr 05 22:54 |
| MinceR | asking money for it isn't the violation | Apr 05 22:54 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/04/04/... (Microsoft’s latest ad attacks Mac aesthetics, computing power) | Apr 05 22:54 |
| MinceR | if they don't give you the source code according to the license terms, that is | Apr 05 22:54 |
| Balrog_ | they don't give ANY source code | Apr 05 22:56 |
| Balrog_ | [6:03pm] Balrog_: it's totally proprietary | Apr 05 22:57 |
| MinceR | that's a violation. | Apr 05 22:57 |
| _Hicham_ | they must be sued | Apr 05 22:57 |
| MinceR | better notify the authors of libdvdcss | Apr 05 22:57 |
| Balrog_ | someone did, they ignored it | Apr 05 22:57 |
| Balrog_ | Jon Lech Johansen even commented | Apr 05 22:57 |
| MinceR | well, then they're ok with it | Apr 05 22:57 |
| Balrog_ | I'm annoyed, because I want the code | Apr 05 22:57 |
| _Hicham_ | FSF must find a way to sue such violations | Apr 05 22:57 |
| MinceR | can anyone but the copyright holder sue? | Apr 05 22:57 |
| Balrog_ | http://mailman.videolan.org/piperm... | Apr 05 22:58 |
| MinceR | FSF's way is asking the author to sign copyright off to the FSF | Apr 05 22:58 |
| _Hicham_ | the copyright holder can sue | Apr 05 22:58 |
| _Hicham_ | so FSF is the copyright holder | Apr 05 22:58 |
| Balrog_ | it's a very low volume mailing list though | Apr 05 22:58 |
| _Hicham_ | in most cases | Apr 05 22:58 |
| Balrog_ | not videolan? | Apr 05 22:58 |
| Balrog_ | http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cach... | Apr 05 22:58 |
| MinceR | the only message that month :D | Apr 05 22:59 |
| schestowitz | Bad publicity | Apr 05 22:59 |
| _Hicham_ | I hate those fuckers | Apr 05 23:01 |
| _Hicham_ | but it is easy | Apr 05 23:01 |
| _Hicham_ | just counterfeit their software and release it | Apr 05 23:01 |
| schestowitz | "Microsoft Corp. has announced that it will drop mainstream support for Office 2003 on April 14, the same day it starts to retire Windows XP..." http://www.computerworld.com/action/arti... | Apr 05 23:02 |
| schestowitz | See, with OOo the upgrade is free | Apr 05 23:02 |
| Balrog_ | people do that. Except that you have to buy it from them first. And I want /source/ | Apr 05 23:02 |
| schestowitz | Same with Fedora, Ubuntu, etc. | Apr 05 23:02 |
| schestowitz | Here you have people forced to buy new hardware to run a porky version with MOOX | Apr 05 23:02 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog_ : it is not the only ripper | Apr 05 23:02 |
| schestowitz | So guess what makes non-Free software 'better'? | Apr 05 23:03 |
| Balrog_ | what are other good ones that properly preserve VIDEO_TS? | Apr 05 23:03 |
| schestowitz | it's made into a black box with a fancy box and a price tag | Apr 05 23:03 |
| schestowitz | Same code underneath | Apr 05 23:03 |
| Balrog_ | _Hicham_: that doesn't mean it's bad for this to be tolerated | Apr 05 23:03 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: if they broke ripper copyrights, how do you know it's only that? | Apr 05 23:04 |
| schestowitz | It's very possible that they embed other Free software in less obvious places. | Apr 05 23:04 |
| _Hicham_ | reverse engineering | Apr 05 23:04 |
| schestowitz | Like busybox | Apr 05 23:04 |
| _Hicham_ | the only solution is cracking | Apr 05 23:04 |
| _Hicham_ | crack their shit, and put it for free | Apr 05 23:04 |
| _Hicham_ | that is how it goes, the old way | Apr 05 23:05 |
| _Hicham_ | at some point, I think that porting Linux projects to Windows must stop | Apr 05 23:05 |
| Balrog_ | it's been cracked, and is on the torrent sites | Apr 05 23:05 |
| Balrog_ | this isn't windows, BTW ... mac rather | Apr 05 23:05 |
| Balrog_ | but I want the code | Apr 05 23:05 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't know about Mac a lot | Apr 05 23:07 |
| Balrog_ | Mac can use Linux libraries with only a recompile | Apr 05 23:07 |
| Balrog_ | it has source-level Unix compatibility | Apr 05 23:08 |
| Balrog_ | (for the most part) | Apr 05 23:08 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog_ : do u insist on preserving the VIDEO_TS structure? | Apr 05 23:11 |
| Balrog_ | YES. | Apr 05 23:11 |
| Balrog_ | like for direct copies | Apr 05 23:12 |
| Balrog_ | just stripping the CSS | Apr 05 23:12 |
| Balrog_ | and other corruption | Apr 05 23:12 |
| _Hicham_ | did u try HandBrake? | Apr 05 23:13 |
| _Hicham_ | http://handbrake.fr/ | Apr 05 23:13 |
| Balrog_ | it re-encodes. I use it when I need to do that. | Apr 05 23:13 |
| _Hicham_ | http://exit1.org/dvdrip/ | Apr 05 23:14 |
| Balrog_ | perl :/ | Apr 05 23:14 |
| _Hicham_ | u don't like perl? | Apr 05 23:14 |
| Balrog_ | not for full blown apps | Apr 05 23:14 |
| Balrog_ | it's ok but the module system can be messy | Apr 05 23:15 |
| _Hicham_ | and finally the oldest one : http://untrepid.com/acidrip/ | Apr 05 23:15 |
| _Hicham_ | I think that those are the open source ones | Apr 05 23:15 |
| oiaohm | And MS has extended the time allowed to install XP into 2010. | Apr 05 23:15 |
| _Hicham_ | but it is perl again | Apr 05 23:16 |
| oiaohm | At the rate MS is going XP is going to be allowed to be installed new right up to it end of life. | Apr 05 23:16 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog_ : u want sthg in C? | Apr 05 23:16 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : XP won't be replaced by Vista | Apr 05 23:16 |
| Balrog_ | something like that. As long as it's reliable, strips drm and corruption, and provides unaltered VIDEO_TS | Apr 05 23:16 |
| oiaohm | It windows 7 licence that HP has been allowed to use to install XP on new machines _Hicham_ | Apr 05 23:18 |
| oiaohm | XP is basically not end of lifing. | Apr 05 23:18 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : so MS is fucking customers both ways | Apr 05 23:19 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog_ : did u try K3b? | Apr 05 23:19 |
| _Hicham_ | K3b is old and stable | Apr 05 23:20 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't know if brasero can copy protected DVDs | Apr 05 23:20 |
| _Hicham_ | u have a lot of options | Apr 05 23:21 |
| oiaohm | brasero and k3b can do a direct image copy of anything. | Apr 05 23:21 |
| _Hicham_ | u want to make ur own application Balrog_? | Apr 05 23:21 |
| oiaohm | If you have the right size media. | Apr 05 23:21 |
| Balrog_ | _Hicham_: no, I wanted to study MacTheRipper and use some of that info | Apr 05 23:21 |
| _Hicham_ | why MacTheRipper? | Apr 05 23:21 |
| Balrog_ | because it has some interesting features | Apr 05 23:22 |
| oiaohm | k9copy | Apr 05 23:22 |
| _Hicham_ | like? | Apr 05 23:22 |
| Balrog_ | meaning the way it circumvents corruption | Apr 05 23:22 |
| schestowitz | is xp eol 2012? | Apr 05 23:23 |
| oiaohm | You can always use vlc to rip a dvd as well. | Apr 05 23:23 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog_ : I don't see where is the problem | Apr 05 23:23 |
| oiaohm | That is kinda safe to all the corruption faults. | Apr 05 23:23 |
| Balrog_ | oiaohm: does it preserve VIDEO_TS | Apr 05 23:23 |
| oiaohm | Nop | Apr 05 23:24 |
| Balrog_ | no good | Apr 05 23:24 |
| oiaohm | But it will get the stream out where everything else fails. | Apr 05 23:25 |
| oiaohm | Used in combination with k9copy is very effective. | Apr 05 23:26 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog_ : u want to write ur own application? | Apr 05 23:26 |
| Balrog_ | maybe down the road, but | Apr 05 23:27 |
| Balrog_ | I don't want to reinvent the wheel :/ | Apr 05 23:27 |
| _Hicham_ | since it is just a backup, why bother? | Apr 05 23:27 |
| schestowitz | gn | Apr 05 23:27 |
| Balrog_ | (I'm talking about removing corruption) | Apr 05 23:27 |
| oiaohm | Is the disk damaged? | Apr 05 23:28 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : gn | Apr 05 23:28 |
| _Hicham_ | yes that is the question | Apr 05 23:28 |
| _Hicham_ | if it is damaged, it is another thing | Apr 05 23:28 |
| Balrog_ | no, but they use corruption to make it harder to dump | Apr 05 23:29 |
| oiaohm | That is not corruption. | Apr 05 23:29 |
| oiaohm | That is problems with poor understanding of mpeg | Apr 05 23:29 |
| oiaohm | VLC dump will dump effected streams. | Apr 05 23:29 |
| oiaohm | Removing it. | Apr 05 23:30 |
| oiaohm | It so simple really all you do to stuff them up is add a background frame that is not used for a while. | Apr 05 23:30 |
| oiaohm | Lot of ripping programs dump the frame before it need so leading to video break up. | Apr 05 23:31 |
| oiaohm | Its a performance correction thing done in modernday dvds. | Apr 05 23:31 |
| oiaohm | So that when there is least ammout ot read of disk stuff is precached. | Apr 05 23:31 |
| Balrog_ | I see. | Apr 05 23:32 |
| oiaohm | Basically someone needs to make a ripper based on vlc engine. | Apr 05 23:34 |
| oiaohm | That does what you want. | Apr 05 23:34 |
| oiaohm | http://handbrake.fr/ Really that should do it. | Apr 05 23:35 |
| oiaohm | I really do think it funny that a lot of people ripping say new dvds have copy protection that is breaking there ripping tools. | Apr 05 23:37 |
| oiaohm | When its is a simple performance correction allowed by mpeg. | Apr 05 23:37 |
| Balrog_ | handbrake doesn't preserve video_ts | Apr 05 23:38 |
| oiaohm | http://k9copy.sourceforge.net/ k9copy rebuilts. | Apr 05 23:38 |
| oiaohm | Lot of times you don't need to preserve as long as final form works. | Apr 05 23:39 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog_ : why preserve VIDEO_TS? | Apr 05 23:40 |
| Balrog_ | because I want to lose no quality | Apr 05 23:40 |
| Balrog_ | I want a full dump without any changes | Apr 05 23:40 |
| Balrog_ | handbrake also re-encodes | Apr 05 23:41 |
| oiaohm | Ok so that is the same size disk and k3b image copy. | Apr 05 23:41 |
| _Hicham_ | mencoder should do it | Apr 05 23:41 |
| _Hicham_ | mencoder basically copies frame by frame | Apr 05 23:41 |
| _Hicham_ | did u try mencoder? | Apr 05 23:41 |
| oiaohm | Because any compressinion alterations will alter quality. | Apr 05 23:41 |
| oiaohm | Even decrypting can damage. | Apr 05 23:42 |
| oiaohm | Offset alterations. | Apr 05 23:43 |
| oiaohm | There is a reason why most dvd copy tools rebuilt the menu. | Apr 05 23:44 |
| oiaohm | After they decode its basically required. | Apr 05 23:44 |
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| MinceR | gn | Apr 05 23:53 |
