04.20.09
IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 19th, 2009 – Part 1
To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.
| schestowitz | tacone: expect a bad week for Microsoft next week | Apr 19 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| schestowitz | They must give shareholder a roadmap | Apr 19 00:00 |
| schestowitz | Be it a new product, lawsuits, whatever… | Apr 19 00:00 |
| schestowitz | As it stands, they can either pull out VIsta7 right now when it’s as buggy as hell | Apr 19 00:01 |
| tacone | did you post about the mail from Linus | Apr 19 00:01 |
| schestowitz | Then see no sales | Apr 19 00:01 |
| *seller_liar (i=c92bcef1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2b98e581d5b49f78) has joined #boycottnovell | Apr 19 00:01 | |
| schestowitz | Or wait another year, as planned | Apr 19 00:01 |
| schestowitz | Which means anohter draught in sales. | Apr 19 00:01 |
| schestowitz | and they have not reolved the netbooks problem, either. | Apr 19 00:01 |
| schestowitz | *Resolved | Apr 19 00:01 |
| seller_liar | This world gets me tired ! | Apr 19 00:01 |
| MinceR | oh, trials from investors | Apr 19 00:01 |
| *shreddar (i=45f506e4@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e57ad51caad6f8d5) has joined #boycottnovell | Apr 19 00:01 | |
| MinceR | that would be nice. | Apr 19 00:01 |
| schestowitz | tacone: in IRC I sort of did | Apr 19 00:01 |
| schestowitz | You can look it up. Hold on. | Apr 19 00:02 |
| seller_liar | It’s very close the day which I will teach my philosophy | Apr 19 00:02 |
| schestowitz | seller_liar: MSFT is doing badly | Apr 19 00:03 |
| schestowitz | Profit to drive sharply | Apr 19 00:04 |
| seller_liar | schestowitz: Final coutdown for microsoft! | Apr 19 00:04 |
| schestowitz | But it doesn’t resolve the overall problem | Apr 19 00:04 |
| schestowitz | There’s trouble beyond MSFT | Apr 19 00:04 |
| schestowitz | Maybe they can put Ballmer on top of GM or Chvron or something | Apr 19 00:04 |
| seller_liar | I know , IBM ,crapple and others like nike and coca-cola company | Apr 19 00:04 |
| schestowitz | Where he can crush people physically. | Apr 19 00:04 |
| schestowitz | seller_liar: maybe Google too | Apr 19 00:05 |
| schestowitz | We don’t know yet, though | Apr 19 00:05 |
| *kentma1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Apr 19 00:05 | |
| seller_liar | My philosohpy will change everything | Apr 19 00:05 |
| seller_liar | schestowitz: It’s not a joke | Apr 19 00:05 |
| seller_liar | We need port banshee to python | Apr 19 00:06 |
| seller_liar | Are there c# to python converter? | Apr 19 00:06 |
| tacone | lol | Apr 19 00:06 |
| shreddar | I read the comes petition and the ECIS finalversion PDF’s as well as MS’s annual report “issues and uncertainties” they all seem to point to Microsoft being very savy in cutting off competition at even the most obscure possibilities of competition. | Apr 19 00:07 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : still thinking about banshee? | Apr 19 00:07 |
| schestowitz | “Microsoft has been has been ordered to pay $388m after being found guilty of infringing a patent held by anti-piracy software developer Uniloc.” http://www.americanchronicle.com… | Apr 19 00:07 |
| schestowitz | Go on, Microsoft. Go for sw pats  |
Apr 19 00:07 |
| tacone | port banshee is no sense | Apr 19 00:07 |
| _Hicham_ | fuck banshee | Apr 19 00:08 |
| _Hicham_ | fuck mono | Apr 19 00:08 |
| _Hicham_ | who needs them? | Apr 19 00:08 |
| schestowitz | shreddar: yes, did you see Comes vs Microsoft? | Apr 19 00:08 |
| schestowitz | shreddar: see the Wiki. | Apr 19 00:08 |
| tacone | so crank up and scream on your bansheeee | Apr 19 00:08 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/in… | Apr 19 00:08 |
| tacone | linux sets you freeee | Apr 19 00:08 |
| schestowitz | Esp. http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index… | Apr 19 00:08 |
| seller_liar | We need a replacement for rhythmbox | Apr 19 00:09 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : go write it | Apr 19 00:09 |
| tacone | exhaile ? | Apr 19 00:09 |
| tacone | you’d better to contribute to that, or fork it. | Apr 19 00:09 |
| schestowitz | tacone: LOL … Linux sets you fre | Apr 19 00:09 |
| schestowitz | Novell puts a bad face on Linux users… | Apr 19 00:09 |
| _Hicham_ | I don’t use anything but Audacious | Apr 19 00:09 |
| tacone | “free as in your butt ™” | Apr 19 00:09 |
| _Hicham_ | Novell taints the community | Apr 19 00:09 |
| tacone | http://www.stefanoforenza.com/… | Apr 19 00:10 |
| schestowitz | LOL | Apr 19 00:10 |
| schestowitz | “No ifs, no butts” | Apr 19 00:10 |
| seller_liar | Yes , exaile can be a good replacement too, but still incomplete | Apr 19 00:10 |
| tacone | i copyrighted the tag. beware, be very ware |
Apr 19 00:10 |
| silentivm | i’m happy with Music Player Daemon (MPD) | Apr 19 00:10 |
| schestowitz | look at us fighting among outselves to get rid of infections | Apr 19 00:10 |
| schestowitz | That’s what MS wanted | Apr 19 00:10 |
| *amarsh04 still wants a replacement for xmms version 1.2 – realtime priority, plays all audio formats whilst using a small fraction of a PII-266 cpu power and supports MIDI output to soundcards with on-board MIDI synthesisers | Apr 19 00:11 | |
| schestowitz | If we don’t remove the infection then it pulls a TomTom | Apr 19 00:11 |
| schestowitz | Let’s conin something | Apr 19 00:11 |
| schestowitz | Like “pull a TomTom” | Apr 19 00:11 |
| amarsh04 | I’ve recompiled xmms 1.2 a few times since Debian stopped supporting it | Apr 19 00:11 |
| schestowitz | Meaning, “planting some software in rivals and suing them when it’s too deep in there” | Apr 19 00:11 |
| tacone | like pull the finger ? | Apr 19 00:11 |
| schestowitz | If we say that Mono is “pulling a TomTom” then people will understand | Apr 19 00:11 |
| tacone | you take the mono and they fart ? | Apr 19 00:12 |
| schestowitz | And maybe associate Mono with risk of lawsuit from a lying SCO-like company | Apr 19 00:12 |
| _Hicham_ | Audacious just rocks | Apr 19 00:12 |
| seller_liar | Banshee converted to python is not banshee anymore | Apr 19 00:12 |
| schestowitz | tacone: too far, I think | Apr 19 00:12 |
| _Hicham_ | Audacious is Winamp in Linux world | Apr 19 00:12 |
| tacone | that was not serious. | Apr 19 00:12 |
| schestowitz | seller_liar: but Novell controls Banshee | Apr 19 00:12 |
| schestowitz | I think it ‘bought’ the dev | Apr 19 00:13 |
| amarsh04 | all the descended from xmms packages take far more cpu load than xmms 1.x | Apr 19 00:13 |
| shreddar | I want to know if Mono will backfire if the patents get rejected. | Apr 19 00:13 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar is in love with banshee | Apr 19 00:13 |
| tacone | also gnome-do seems to do very well. | Apr 19 00:13 |
| tacone | banshee is pretty nice, beside crashes. | Apr 19 00:13 |
| seller_liar | No, I m not in love | Apr 19 00:13 |
| tacone | but nothing that far from exhaile. | Apr 19 00:13 |
| schestowitz | tacone: I know, but I start to associate mono with methane. | Apr 19 00:13 |
| _Hicham_ | fuck gnome-do and its mono backend | Apr 19 00:13 |
| seller_liar | But , rhythmbox is not developed anymore! | Apr 19 00:14 |
| _Hicham_ | get rid of mono if u r on Ubuntu | Apr 19 00:14 |
| tacone | it wasn’t developed even before |
Apr 19 00:14 |
| amarsh04 | I have yet to get hardware acceleration with an ATI radeon 3200 hd… I may have to find another video card that supports acceleration with free drivers | Apr 19 00:14 |
| tacone | the problem is not to fork or port current applictations | Apr 19 00:14 |
| tacone | is to propose better ones. | Apr 19 00:14 |
| seller_liar | tacone: exaile ? | Apr 19 00:15 |
| tacone | zeitgeist and gnome-shell are good examples. | Apr 19 00:15 |
| tacone | exaile | Apr 19 00:15 |
| tacone | nice, but even more crashy than banshee. | Apr 19 00:15 |
| schestowitz | http://www.stefanoforenza.com/tag/free-… found contains http://www.stefanoforenza.com/blog/wp-conte… good place | Apr 19 00:15 |
| tacone | beside the freezes, it’s pretty nice. | Apr 19 00:15 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft licences too expensive, say schools < http://www.zdnet.co.uk/talkback/0,1000… > | Apr 19 00:16 |
| tacone | with banshee starting to support videos, it won’t be easy though. | Apr 19 00:16 |
| seller_liar | tacone: port a app is a lot easy thans develop an app from scratch | Apr 19 00:17 |
| tacone | seller_liar: go improve exaile. | Apr 19 00:17 |
| seller_liar | devs uses languages converters like java2c | Apr 19 00:17 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : who told u that? | Apr 19 00:17 |
| seller_liar | tacone: ok , probably exaile is in launchpad | Apr 19 00:17 |
| tacone | seller_liar: read my lips, c# -> python converter do not exist | Apr 19 00:17 |
| amarsh04 | even if an existing app just provides a benchmark in features and ease of use, it helps one develop a competing product | Apr 19 00:18 |
| shreddar | I wonder why QT cant be used in place of .NET or Java? (for cross-platform development) | Apr 19 00:20 |
| seller_liar | shreddar: novuel “owns” gnome | Apr 19 00:20 |
| MinceR | probably because people are too lame to code in C++ | Apr 19 00:20 |
| tacone | exaile is in launchpad and uses PPA. | Apr 19 00:21 |
| *tacone can’t code in c/c++ | Apr 19 00:21 | |
| seller_liar | me too | Apr 19 00:22 |
| shreddar | Well the way I understand it C++ and Jave are kinda the same. | Apr 19 00:22 |
| seller_liar | I don t like c, c++ , but I like java a lot! | Apr 19 00:22 |
| tacone | by the way, what tomboy demonstrated | Apr 19 00:22 |
| PetoKraus | well | Apr 19 00:22 |
| PetoKraus | qt is a toolkit | Apr 19 00:22 |
| seller_liar | shreddar: Pointer and a mixture of c and c++ is very ugly | Apr 19 00:22 |
| tacone | is that “This show me that the door is open to reimplementing Gtk# software (or | Apr 19 00:22 |
| tacone | parts) in C++ with not too many problems, making it easy to have them | Apr 19 00:22 |
| tacone | available for C applications.” | Apr 19 00:22 |
| PetoKraus | it’s not a programming language | Apr 19 00:23 |
| tacone | ” It is actually not that hard, just a lot of work to do manually because there is over a dozen of thousands of lines of code.” | Apr 19 00:23 |
| PetoKraus | seller_liar: ugly? |
Apr 19 00:23 |
| shreddar | Oh | Apr 19 00:23 |
| PetoKraus | some people call Java being ugly for being bloated… |
Apr 19 00:24 |
| seller_liar | PetoKraus: java is very extensible | Apr 19 00:24 |
| seller_liar | PetoKraus: AspectJ , contracts and other thj]iings | Apr 19 00:24 |
| seller_liar | PetoKraus: c and c++ is ….poooor | Apr 19 00:25 |
| PetoKraus | didn’t use any of them. I just didn’t like it | Apr 19 00:25 |
| PetoKraus | python was more appealing to me than java from the beginning | Apr 19 00:25 |
| PetoKraus | especially because of the added non-OOP paradigm | Apr 19 00:25 |
| shreddar | C and C++ will likely not be replaced untill machine code can be written from another OO language AFAIK. | Apr 19 00:26 |
| seller_liar | PetoKraus: python is more easy and functional | Apr 19 00:26 |
| PetoKraus | yeah | Apr 19 00:26 |
| PetoKraus | shreddar: i don’t think C/C++ will be replaced soon | Apr 19 00:26 |
| PetoKraus | look at fortran | Apr 19 00:26 |
| seller_liar | shreddar: Eiffel uses c as intermediate lkanguage/ | Apr 19 00:26 |
| PetoKraus | it’s very very old, but still used | Apr 19 00:26 |
| PetoKraus | because of legacy soft | Apr 19 00:27 |
| seller_liar | C is good only for to be a intermediate language now | Apr 19 00:27 |
| tacone | python is going to get a big boost from google in a year or two. | Apr 19 00:27 |
| schestowitz | Linux is getting a boost from subnotebooks and Microsoft dives http://digitimes.com/news/a2… http://www.notebookreview.com/def… http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Window… | Apr 19 00:27 |
| MinceR | in c++ you can do actual memory management | Apr 19 00:27 |
| MinceR | and you can make mistakes with it | Apr 19 00:27 |
| PetoKraus | ^^ | Apr 19 00:27 |
| MinceR | but at least your app won’t take half an hour to start and won’t eat your ram. | Apr 19 00:27 |
| PetoKraus | you DO make mistakes with it | Apr 19 00:27 |
| tacone | first link is pay only | Apr 19 00:27 |
| seller_liar | schestowitz: We need to do a ethics campaign | Apr 19 00:27 |
| PetoKraus | ethics? | Apr 19 00:28 |
| PetoKraus | what’s that | Apr 19 00:28 |
| seller_liar | seller_liar: Show the reality for all people | Apr 19 00:28 |
| seller_liar | PetoKraus: People does not like ethics | Apr 19 00:28 |
| seller_liar | PetoKraus: we need to promove ethics | Apr 19 00:28 |
| PetoKraus | in what sense | Apr 19 00:28 |
| PetoKraus | ethics is quite vague word | Apr 19 00:29 |
| seller_liar | PetoKraus: People only thinks in personal desires | Apr 19 00:29 |
| seller_liar | PetoKraus: People must think about global problems , not only in personal problems | Apr 19 00:29 |
| PetoKraus | well | Apr 19 00:29 |
| PetoKraus | “people must” is wrong to start with | Apr 19 00:29 |
| schestowitz | Hehe. | Apr 19 00:30 |
| seller_liar | PetoKraus: People focus too much in personal choices (for example , people chooses proprietary software instead of free software | Apr 19 00:30 |
| schestowitz | Well, seller_liar raises an important point | Apr 19 00:30 |
| schestowitz | because it’s know that authorities and companies deliberately isolate people | Apr 19 00:30 |
| schestowitz | It makes people a lot more vulnerable | Apr 19 00:30 |
| PetoKraus | secondly, there’s nothing wrong with using proprietary software, if you feel like it | Apr 19 00:30 |
| PetoKraus | though | Apr 19 00:30 |
| schestowitz | But people tend to think they are invincible aprt | Apr 19 00:30 |
| PetoKraus | i don’t feel like it | Apr 19 00:30 |
| schestowitz | Which is an illusion really | Apr 19 00:30 |
| schestowitz | There are cases where one ethnic groups is knocked againat another by the elites | Apr 19 00:31 |
| PetoKraus | well | Apr 19 00:31 |
| schestowitz | Examples being drug wars, cold war, invasion of Iraq (‘war’ on Islam) | Apr 19 00:31 |
| PetoKraus | this is a bit of a far shot from software | Apr 19 00:31 |
| PetoKraus | isn’t it. | Apr 19 00:31 |
| schestowitz | It makes people not revognise the real enemy | Apr 19 00:31 |
| PetoKraus | the problem as far as i understand it | Apr 19 00:31 |
| schestowitz | And people are sometimes treated like enemies across the border, even by own authorities | Apr 19 00:31 |
| seller_liar | Proprietary software is a problem when there are more than free software | Apr 19 00:31 |
| PetoKraus | is not trying to win the users from microsoft | Apr 19 00:32 |
| schestowitz | This is a well-established thesis | Apr 19 00:32 |
| PetoKraus | but the problem is to get equal ground from vendors (HW/SW) | Apr 19 00:32 |
| PetoKraus | for both, FOSS and closed platforms | Apr 19 00:32 |
| schestowitz | PetoKraus: It’s not about Microsoft | Apr 19 00:32 |
| seller_liar | schestowitz: For example , people does not spend 10% free time to learn a new free operating system | Apr 19 00:32 |
| schestowitz | GNU was never about MS, either | Apr 19 00:32 |
| seller_liar | PetoKraus: : For example , people does not spend 10% free time to learn a new free operating system | Apr 19 00:32 |
| schestowitz | It was created to address broader issues | Apr 19 00:32 |
| PetoKraus | schestowitz: you don’t need to explain that to me |
Apr 19 00:33 |
| schestowitz | |
Apr 19 00:33 |
| amarsh04 | ms didn’t make the laser printer that rms wanted the specs for | Apr 19 00:33 |
| seller_liar | soory | Apr 19 00:33 |
| PetoKraus | it was xerox, yeah | Apr 19 00:33 |
| seller_liar | Instead people waste all the time in proprietary software | Apr 19 00:33 |
| shreddar | Proprietary software is mostly a probablem for people who can program. All anyone else wants is a application that works. | Apr 19 00:33 |
| seller_liar | You see? | Apr 19 00:33 |
| seller_liar | Proprietary software -> selfish choice | Apr 19 00:34 |
| PetoKraus | hm that’s gross generalisation | Apr 19 00:34 |
| shreddar | and is cheap or free. | Apr 19 00:34 |
| seller_liar | Free software -> less selfish choice, more ethical choice | Apr 19 00:34 |
| PetoKraus | well it doesn’t have much with selfishness | Apr 19 00:34 |
| seller_liar | PetoKraus: sorry , use ONLY proprietary soiftware , more than free software is a unethical choice | Apr 19 00:34 |
| amarsh04 | If I get to the root cause of a software or hardware problem, I want to tell others about it… even if it was “I should have reset the BIOS to defaults after performing a BIOS upgrade” | Apr 19 00:35 |
| schestowitz | Report: Jobs still in control at Apple < http://news.cnet.com/report-j… > And all the fanbis go “har ha har!” | Apr 19 00:35 |
| PetoKraus | it does have hell-of-a-lot with transparency etc | Apr 19 00:35 |
| MinceR | i wonder if he’ll still be in control after he dies :> | Apr 19 00:35 |
| seller_liar | Jobs must die!!! | Apr 19 00:35 |
| MinceR | indeed | Apr 19 00:35 |
| seller_liar | Jobs have a lot of lobby and unsjust system behind him | Apr 19 00:36 |
| amarsh04 | speaking of which, I would love for my next pc to run coreboot… with the opengraphics project video card, that may actually be feasible | Apr 19 00:36 |
| PetoKraus | heh | Apr 19 00:36 |
| schestowitz | amarsh04: you haven’t commented in LT for a while | Apr 19 00:36 |
| amarsh04 | no schestowitz, I’m about 27 days behind in LT | Apr 19 00:36 |
| amarsh04 | slowly catching up on LT | Apr 19 00:36 |
| schestowitz | amarsh04: Carla posted photos today | Apr 19 00:37 |
| amarsh04 | what of, schestowitz? | Apr 19 00:37 |
| schestowitz | Suburbs | Apr 19 00:37 |
| schestowitz | I assume she lives somewhere at the heard of the USian lands. | Apr 19 00:37 |
| schestowitz | *heart | Apr 19 00:37 |
| PetoKraus | amarsh04: my southbridge is WIP | Apr 19 00:37 |
| amarsh04 | she has indicated that she lives in a semi-rural area schestowitz | Apr 19 00:38 |
| schestowitz | UPDATE: Tech Indus Group ECIS To Testify In EU Microsoft Probe < http://www.easybourse.com/bourse-a… > | Apr 19 00:39 |
| schestowitz | Wow. Microsoft is totally fragmented: http://blog.seattletimes.nwsou… | Apr 19 00:41 |
| PetoKraus | hmm: 2008/10/28 Intel 945, ICH7, Core Duo/Core 2 Duo, and Kontron 986LCD-M/mITX now supported | Apr 19 00:41 |
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| amarsh04 | in coreboot, PetoKraus? | Apr 19 00:41 |
| PetoKraus | yup | Apr 19 00:41 |
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| PetoKraus | might be nice to skip grub | Apr 19 00:42 |
| schestowitz | Maureen O’Gara: “vmware Continues To Reek of Microsoft” | Apr 19 00:42 |
| schestowitz | Duh |
Apr 19 00:42 |
| amarsh04 | I’m amazed at the level of activity with grub yet still not being feature complete | Apr 19 00:43 |
| PetoKraus |  |
Apr 19 00:43 |
| _Hicham_ | amarsh04 : there is nothing complete | Apr 19 00:43 |
| _Hicham_ | everything can be improved | Apr 19 00:43 |
| shreddar | On the browser case I doubt the EU will force MS to add other browsers just like the DOJ didn’t split them up 9 years ago. But maybe I’m being synical. | Apr 19 00:43 |
| schestowitz | US jury orders Microsoft to pay $500m to Australian inventor < http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/technolo… > | Apr 19 00:44 |
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| schestowitz | I’m bored. Going to bed… | Apr 19 01:02 |
| tacone | gn | Apr 19 01:03 |
| MinceR | gn | Apr 19 01:35 |
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| air_ | … installed debian at last | Apr 19 01:47 |
| air_ | mandriva was definitely easier to use | Apr 19 01:47 |
| _Hicham_ | air_ : good for u | Apr 19 01:47 |
| _Hicham_ | air_ : why did u switch? | Apr 19 01:47 |
| air_ | ’cause i wanted to switch for no reason | Apr 19 01:48 |
| air_ | just got tired of mandriva | Apr 19 01:48 |
| _Hicham_ | how was the transition? | Apr 19 01:48 |
| air_ | it’s still not finished | Apr 19 01:48 |
| air_ | ’cause firstly i got some insane video mode | Apr 19 01:49 |
| _Hicham_ | did u have firmware problems? | Apr 19 01:49 |
| air_ | firmware? | Apr 19 01:49 |
| _Hicham_ | is that debian lenny? | Apr 19 01:49 |
| air_ | yeah | Apr 19 01:49 |
| air_ | it set up 1920xsmth 60hz firstly | Apr 19 01:49 |
| air_ | my eyes almost fell off | Apr 19 01:49 |
| air_ | then i gtf 1280 1024 100 and put it into xorg.conf | Apr 19 01:50 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not a big issue | Apr 19 01:50 |
| air_ | it set it up but it made not 100hz but 60hz | Apr 19 01:50 |
| air_ | it’s crt monitor here | Apr 19 01:50 |
| _Hicham_ | go to gnome control center | Apr 19 01:50 |
| air_ | i still don’t know how to set up 100hz | Apr 19 01:50 |
| _Hicham_ | does ur monitor support it? | Apr 19 01:51 |
| air_ | yeah | Apr 19 01:51 |
| air_ | where’s gnome control center? | Apr 19 01:51 |
| air_ | there’s “screen resolution” in system–>preferences | Apr 19 01:52 |
| _Hicham_ | yes | Apr 19 01:52 |
| air_ | but it doesn’t actually work | Apr 19 01:52 |
| _Hicham_ | u must then configure xorg.conf manually | Apr 19 01:53 |
| air_ | that’s what i did | Apr 19 01:53 |
| air_ | and it’s still 60 ) |
Apr 19 01:53 |
| _Hicham_ | what card do u have? | Apr 19 01:54 |
| air_ | radeon hd4870 | Apr 19 01:54 |
| air_ | http://pastebin.com/d3edd59a <– here’s my new xorg.conf | Apr 19 01:55 |
| air_ | gotta try to reboot and check if it sets 100hz now |
Apr 19 02:00 |
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| air_ | seems like debian will kill me | Apr 19 02:24 |
| air_ | even though i like how gnome looks | Apr 19 02:24 |
| _Hicham_ | why? | Apr 19 02:26 |
| _Hicham_ | same issue? | Apr 19 02:26 |
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| air_ | yeah, _Hicham_ same problem | Apr 19 02:34 |
| _Hicham_ | what driver are u using? | Apr 19 02:35 |
| air_ | hm… idk | Apr 19 02:35 |
| _Hicham_ | the open source radeonhd? | Apr 19 02:35 |
| air_ | yeah | Apr 19 02:35 |
| air_ | i tried to install it | Apr 19 02:35 |
| air_ | but it said that it’s already latest | Apr 19 02:35 |
| air_ | looks like i should somehow change id of monitor | Apr 19 02:36 |
| _Hicham_ | were u using the open source radeonhd driver on mandriva too? | Apr 19 02:38 |
| _Hicham_ | or was it fglrx? | Apr 19 02:39 |
| air_ | i almost didn’t use mandriva at home | Apr 19 02:39 |
| air_ | it just set up some 70-75hz mode and it was kinda enough | Apr 19 02:39 |
| _Hicham_ | this is not debian specific | Apr 19 02:40 |
| air_ | later i installed it into virtual pc and it was enough too |
Apr 19 02:40 |
| _Hicham_ | i am talking about the driver | Apr 19 02:40 |
| air_ | yeah, i suspect it’s x-server specific | Apr 19 02:40 |
| _Hicham_ | was it radeonhd or fglrx? | Apr 19 02:41 |
| air_ | radeonhd | Apr 19 02:41 |
| air_ | should somehow kill it and install fglrx? | Apr 19 02:41 |
| _Hicham_ | if u were using on mandriva, there is no reason that it shouldn’t work on debian | Apr 19 02:43 |
| _Hicham_ | it is the same | Apr 19 02:43 |
| air_ | gonna sleep… may be the problem will fix itself | Apr 19 02:50 |
| air_ | it promised | Apr 19 02:50 |
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| ZiggyFish | I like these headlines that try to control your mind – You will upgrade to NetworkManager 0.7.1 | Apr 19 04:53 |
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| schestowitz | hey | Apr 19 07:21 |
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| schestowitz | No Surprise Here: NSA Abused Surveillance Powers http://techdirt.com/articles/200… | Apr 19 09:36 |
| schestowitz | Brilliant response to attacks on Google: Why Are Newspapers Exploiting The People They Cover? < http://techdirt.com/articles/… > | Apr 19 09:42 |
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| schestowitz | GNU/Linux is quietly and gradually ruining Microsoft: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/19… | Apr 19 11:16 |
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| oiaohm | Yep the slow bleed of MS. | Apr 19 11:33 |
| oiaohm | Is MS earning report out yet. | Apr 19 11:33 |
| schestowitz | Glad you liked it. | Apr 19 11:42 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: I think it’s out around 26th, the usual | Apr 19 11:43 |
| oiaohm | So no leaks. | Apr 19 11:45 |
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| _Hicham_ | Hi oiaohm | Apr 19 11:46 |
| oiaohm | Hi _Hicham_ | Apr 19 11:47 |
| oiaohm | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/… See this yet. | Apr 19 11:47 |
| oiaohm | http://aligunduz.org/blog/2009/04/linux… << Kinda messes with the idea of needing different linux kernels. | Apr 19 11:49 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : I disagree with that idea | Apr 19 11:54 |
| _Hicham_ | it is a bad idea to offer blobs free kernel | Apr 19 11:54 |
| _Hicham_ | the user experience will be crippled | Apr 19 11:54 |
| oiaohm | Really fireware blobs are being split off into a different package. | Apr 19 11:55 |
| oiaohm | Currently having to update kernel and blobs at the same time is bad. | Apr 19 11:55 |
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| _Hicham_ | very bad | Apr 19 11:55 |
| oiaohm | I agree they have no place in the Linux kernel source code. | Apr 19 11:56 |
| _Hicham_ | of course | Apr 19 11:56 |
| oiaohm | But not being able to use them I don’t agree with. | Apr 19 11:56 |
| _Hicham_ | it nonesense | Apr 19 11:56 |
| oiaohm | Yet that was still a single kernel for multiable distributions. | Apr 19 11:56 |
| _Hicham_ | as gNewSense | Apr 19 11:56 |
| _Hicham_ | cripple the user experience | Apr 19 11:56 |
| _Hicham_ | why remove those blobs? | Apr 19 11:56 |
| _Hicham_ | the user should have the possibility to use them | Apr 19 11:57 |
| oiaohm | It is a good assessment tool. | Apr 19 11:57 |
| oiaohm | Over time lots of binary blobs have disappeared. | Apr 19 11:57 |
| _Hicham_ | but what if the vendor don’t want to release the code? | Apr 19 11:58 |
| _Hicham_ | even if it is old stuff? | Apr 19 11:58 |
| _Hicham_ | what about older hardware? | Apr 19 11:58 |
| _Hicham_ | do we have to run windows instead? | Apr 19 11:58 |
| oiaohm | Its the older hardware that the reversers had been at that has the disappearing binary blobs. | Apr 19 11:58 |
| oiaohm | As I said assessment tool. | Apr 19 11:59 |
| oiaohm | For the simple point of spoting areas where blobs could be over used. | Apr 19 11:59 |
| oiaohm | Or even be breach of licence. | Apr 19 11:59 |
| _Hicham_ | I see | Apr 19 12:00 |
| _Hicham_ | once the reversing is complete, the blobs disappear | Apr 19 12:00 |
| oiaohm | For genernal usage I would never recommend a kernel without firmware loading support. | Apr 19 12:00 |
| oiaohm | A few cases the blobs have been found to be illegal. | Apr 19 12:01 |
| oiaohm | Because they way there were they should have been GPL as well. | Apr 19 12:01 |
| _Hicham_ | because of linking them against GPL code? | Apr 19 12:02 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Apr 19 12:02 |
| oiaohm | More like moded GPL code inside. | Apr 19 12:02 |
| oiaohm | Complete breaches. | Apr 19 12:02 |
| oiaohm | gnewsense need is really to make sure everyone plays fair. | Apr 19 12:02 |
| _Hicham_ | no one plays fair | Apr 19 12:03 |
| _Hicham_ | Mandriva offer a CD filled with proprietary drivers and components | Apr 19 12:03 |
| _Hicham_ | Ubuntu contains hardware firmware as well as fedora | Apr 19 12:04 |
| _Hicham_ | Debian splitted them | Apr 19 12:04 |
| _Hicham_ | Debian is the only one who is really doing a neat job in being free | Apr 19 12:05 |
| oiaohm | Debian has followed kernel developers instructions. | Apr 19 12:05 |
| oiaohm | Reason is firmware will start being updated out of sync with kernel versions. | Apr 19 12:05 |
| _Hicham_ | I remarked that | Apr 19 12:06 |
| _Hicham_ | Debian offer binary firmwares updates | Apr 19 12:06 |
| _Hicham_ | Fedora also | Apr 19 12:06 |
| _Hicham_ | but Fedora ships them out of the box | Apr 19 12:06 |
| oiaohm | Basically each firmware comes from a different maker | Apr 19 12:08 |
| oiaohm | And could be updated at different times. | Apr 19 12:08 |
| oiaohm | Firewares are being forced to make there interfaces standard. | Apr 19 12:09 |
| oiaohm | Goal is to allow them to be shared with solarias and freebsd as well. | Apr 19 12:09 |
| oiaohm | This should work because firmwares should not be OS dependant. | Apr 19 12:10 |
| _Hicham_ | that would be great if the interfaces kept clean | Apr 19 12:10 |
| _Hicham_ | and unified | Apr 19 12:10 |
| _Hicham_ | and that would ease the reversing process | Apr 19 12:11 |
| _Hicham_ | the modsetting works great with fedora by the way | Apr 19 12:12 |
| _Hicham_ | the only problem is with compiz | Apr 19 12:12 |
| _Hicham_ | if u want compiz, u must disable modsetting | Apr 19 12:12 |
| oiaohm | There is a prototype compiz supporting dri2 | Apr 19 12:14 |
| oiaohm | Does it have problems with KMS. | Apr 19 12:14 |
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| schestowitz | What Microsoft is doing in other companies is too transparent to see: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/1… | Apr 19 12:22 |
| oiaohm | vmwares actions may turn out good. | Apr 19 12:26 |
| oiaohm | galuim3d support in windows would weaken MS location. | Apr 19 12:26 |
| schestowitz | vmware won’t fight Microsoft | Apr 19 12:27 |
| schestowitz | They can’t | Apr 19 12:27 |
| schestowitz | it’s their friends | Apr 19 12:27 |
| schestowitz | Former colleagues | Apr 19 12:27 |
| schestowitz | IIRC, VMware’s new CEO , COO and CTO (that last one I’m not sure about) are from Microsoft | Apr 19 12:27 |
| _Hicham_ | Hi schestowitz | Apr 19 12:29 |
| schestowitz | Hey! | Apr 19 12:31 |
| schestowitz | I’ve been quiet because I wrote things quickly and I must hurry | Apr 19 12:31 |
| schestowitz | I’ll be back in 2 hours | Apr 19 12:35 |
| MinceR | geekings | Apr 19 12:37 |
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| _Hicham_ | oiaohm will KMS improve by 2.6.30? | Apr 19 13:06 |
| oiaohm | KMS is not the major problem. | Apr 19 13:11 |
| oiaohm | Galuim3d missing is a major problem. | Apr 19 13:12 |
| oiaohm | compiz still designed for dri1 being around is also a problem. | Apr 19 13:12 |
| _Hicham_ | can’t compiz be ported to dri2? | Apr 19 13:13 |
| oiaohm | In there development tree there is a dri2 version. | Apr 19 13:13 |
| oiaohm | past compiz depends on a lot of X11 hacks. | Apr 19 13:13 |
| oiaohm | Its basically a complete rewirte. | Apr 19 13:13 |
| _Hicham_ | in dri2 there is no X11 hacks? | Apr 19 13:14 |
| oiaohm | No need for them. | Apr 19 13:14 |
| _Hicham_ | that would be very good | Apr 19 13:15 |
| _Hicham_ | clean code is great | Apr 19 13:15 |
| _Hicham_ | no maintainance overheads | Apr 19 13:15 |
| oiaohm | At the rate parts are lining up 2.6.31 might be the kernel that good graphical for a lot of cards appear. | Apr 19 13:19 |
| oiaohm | ATI driver developers have accepted dri2 and gem has passed the point of no return. | Apr 19 13:20 |
| oiaohm | So future drivers have to support it. | Apr 19 13:20 |
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| oiaohm | This really shows the difference between open spec and not. http://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/… | Apr 19 13:34 |
| oiaohm | Also notice that radeonhd drivers are slipping behind normal radeon. | Apr 19 13:38 |
| MinceR | which is which? | Apr 19 13:39 |
| *MinceR doesn’t have any ati gpus so he doesn’t really keep track of them | Apr 19 13:40 | |
| oiaohm | nouveau is nvidia without spec. | Apr 19 13:40 |
| MinceR | oh, i mean radeonhd vs radeon | Apr 19 13:40 |
| oiaohm | (RHD) in there title is radeonhd | Apr 19 13:41 |
| tacone | schestowitz: ping | Apr 19 13:43 |
| MinceR | so none of the FLOSS drivers do full 3d acceleration or ati or nvidia | Apr 19 13:43 |
| oiaohm | Not yet. | Apr 19 13:45 |
| oiaohm | Galuim3d will be required for a large section of the 3d acceleration. | Apr 19 13:46 |
| MinceR | hm, what about proprietary drivers, which is better now? | Apr 19 13:46 |
| oiaohm | Nvidias. | Apr 19 13:46 |
| oiaohm | After the mesa updates to support 3d most like Nvidia will be second. | Apr 19 13:47 |
| MinceR | ic | Apr 19 13:47 |
| oiaohm | Non 3d features normal radeon is almost complete. | Apr 19 13:48 |
| oiaohm | GLSL optmiser is also in Galuim3d | Apr 19 13:49 |
| oiaohm | Notice the list the open source nvidia driver is trying to do is a lot shorter than radeons. | Apr 19 13:52 |
| MinceR | indeed | Apr 19 13:52 |
| oiaohm | They have to reverse everything. | Apr 19 13:54 |
| oiaohm | ATI guys have it way simpler. | Apr 19 13:54 |
| oiaohm | More sections of the ATI list should be complete inside 1 month. | Apr 19 13:55 |
| oiaohm | This could one and for all prove the major problem why Linux cannot have good drivers open source is specs. | Apr 19 13:56 |
| trmanco | oiaohm, are you a driver developer? you really seem to know a lot about that stuff  |
Apr 19 13:57 |
| MinceR | the major problem is that the hw vendors don’t care | Apr 19 14:03 |
| oiaohm | I follow a lot of the driver developers mailing lists trmanco | Apr 19 14:11 |
| trmanco | oiaohm, I better start doing that… I follow a lot of them, but none have to do with drivers | Apr 19 14:12 |
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| trmanco | http://mocha.xfce.org/documentatio… | Apr 19 14:28 |
| oiaohm | http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/4/18/201 << Its fun watching things like this move though mailing lists trmanco | Apr 19 14:29 |
| trmanco | I wish I could understand half of what he wrote | Apr 19 14:32 |
| oiaohm | http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/4/18/201 << This is not really that complex. Controlling how much device time applications get. So you don’t end up with a program taking the all the device access. | Apr 19 14:38 |
| oiaohm | At the price of everything else. | Apr 19 14:38 |
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| trmanco | Announcing the Release Candidate for Ubuntu 9.04 on ARM: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubun… | Apr 19 14:41 |
| *amarsh04 just wrote a post on the opengraphics mailing list about ATI firmware | Apr 19 14:45 | |
| oiaohm | about:robots lol mozilla guys have a idea of fun. | Apr 19 14:46 |
| oiaohm | Newer generation ATI cards don’t have what you call a normal firmware. | Apr 19 14:47 |
| oiaohm | They have a atombios. | Apr 19 14:47 |
| amarsh04 | yes, I’m not familiar with atombios and stated as much in my post | Apr 19 14:48 |
| trmanco | cool -> http://wiki.x.org/wiki/Developme… | Apr 19 14:48 |
| oiaohm | atombios lives on video card. Its a platform netural byte code designed to provide OS with enough information to interface with video card in a cpu netural way. | Apr 19 14:51 |
| oiaohm | Basically 1 driver to rule them all. | Apr 19 14:51 |
| oiaohm | Older cards are not designed that way. | Apr 19 14:52 |
| trmanco | oiaohm, what do you mean by older? they started including atombios starting with what chip model? | Apr 19 14:53 |
| oiaohm | r500 designs and up have atiombioses. | Apr 19 14:54 |
| trmanco | ah ok, then I’m old | Apr 19 14:56 |
| oiaohm | Old designs before amd took over the company. | Apr 19 14:56 |
| oiaohm | Amd wants OS makers to have a fairly simple time getting basic support with there cards. | Apr 19 14:57 |
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| oiaohm | “2D setup registers for the card, are still undocumented.” Yep you have a novell style coder amarsh04. Amd has not documented that because basic 2d setup on latter cards should be done threw atombios. | Apr 19 15:02 |
| oiaohm | _cp are code patches. Cards will fire up without them but there will be glitches. Think of them as equal to intel microcode patches. | Apr 19 15:03 |
| amarsh04 | what oiaohm? I’m not suprised that the x.org wiki isn’t perfect… have you posted some feedback to get them to correct the page? | Apr 19 15:03 |
| oiaohm | And prior to r500 sections are covered by licencing agreements. | Apr 19 15:05 |
| oiaohm | _cp patches don’t alter the interfaces to the card. | Apr 19 15:07 |
| schestowitz | OOXML & funny bizniz: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/19/… | Apr 19 15:07 |
| oiaohm | Fastest video (textured XvMC) << That is not 2d code. That is using GPU. | Apr 19 15:12 |
| trmanco | I dont have that | Apr 19 15:12 |
| trmanco | XvMC, if I activate that and put some video in fullscreen it’s choppy | Apr 19 15:13 |
| trmanco | doesn’t that prevent video tearing or something? | Apr 19 15:13 |
| oiaohm | amarsh04: basically 2d support is complete in the ati drivers. All GPU level stuff is still waiting. KMS completion is really the last bit of 2d support. | Apr 19 15:14 |
| oiaohm | If your card truly supports it it works well trmanco | Apr 19 15:14 |
| trmanco | R400 based chip | Apr 19 15:15 |
| oiaohm | Look at list. | Apr 19 15:15 |
| trmanco | must be the driver, maybe too old and it didn’t get the video tearing patch set | Apr 19 15:15 |
| oiaohm | No open source ati driver does so you fall back to software rendering. | Apr 19 15:15 |
| oiaohm | Yep choppy. | Apr 19 15:15 |
| trmanco | let me check | Apr 19 15:17 |
| trmanco | yep | Apr 19 15:17 |
| trmanco | with XV and no XV | Apr 19 15:17 |
| trmanco | I’m talking about the gstreamer prefs | Apr 19 15:17 |
| trmanco | if I activate XV it’s choppy, if I don’t video tears but it’s fluid | Apr 19 15:18 |
| oiaohm | XV blocks tears. | Apr 19 15:19 |
| oiaohm | But there is more than one level of XV for performance. | Apr 19 15:19 |
| trmanco | yeah, but the video playback sucks | Apr 19 15:20 |
| oiaohm | Faster video (textured Xv) | Apr 19 15:20 |
| trmanco | it also activates Xhsm | Apr 19 15:20 |
| trmanco | whatever that is | Apr 19 15:20 |
| oiaohm | Is what you are most likely using. | Apr 19 15:20 |
| oiaohm | Basically decent support you need XvMC | Apr 19 15:21 |
| oiaohm | Where some of the load is off loaded to video cards gpu. | Apr 19 15:21 |
| oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Video_M… There is a option on closed source drivers to enable it trmanco | Apr 19 15:23 |
| trmanco | when I used that driver back then, the video wouldn’t tear | Apr 19 15:24 |
| trmanco | don’t know if it was already using XV or not | Apr 19 15:25 |
| trmanco | I moved to the open source driver because it would freeze X | Apr 19 15:25 |
| amarsh04 | thanks oiaohm | Apr 19 15:25 |
| oiaohm | GPU section of video cards is one of the hardest sections to code. | Apr 19 15:26 |
| oiaohm | Yet the coders are talking about having most of that done in a few months. | Apr 19 15:27 |
| oiaohm | trmanco: it will improve as more stuff comes on line. | Apr 19 15:27 |
| oiaohm | amarsh04: big one Novell and Amd had dispute over the 2d section. Novell wanted to go straight to card. AMD wanted it though atombios so base driver worked no matter the ATI card inserted. | Apr 19 15:29 |
| oiaohm | Personally I agree with AMD judgement. They do provide disasm tool for the atombios so you can get the direct 2d interfaces for a card if you want. | Apr 19 15:30 |
| oiaohm | Just they discourage going that way. | Apr 19 15:31 |
| oiaohm | I am off to bed good night all | Apr 19 15:31 |
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| trmanco | lol | Apr 19 16:01 |
| trmanco | AMI BIOS detected: BIOS may corrupt low RAM, working it around. | Apr 19 16:01 |
| trmanco | smart eh |
Apr 19 16:01 |
| amarsh04 | yes, I’ve seen that message | Apr 19 16:02 |
| trmanco | checking my logs to see if the system is running smooth | Apr 19 16:02 |
| trmanco | everything tunning smooth | Apr 19 16:10 |
| trmanco | oops | Apr 19 16:10 |
| trmanco | running* | Apr 19 16:10 |
| schestowitz | Someone has just pointed that while we speak about hardware (Linux), many applications will likely move online, even MS Office. We need to ensure control is preserved if programs are moved on-line. | Apr 19 16:18 |
| schestowitz | The weakening of Microsoft is not an endless happy ending | Apr 19 16:18 |
| schestowitz | It used to be IBM | Apr 19 16:18 |
| schestowitz | Apple and Google present issues too | Apr 19 16:18 |
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