Bonum Certa Men Certa

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 13th, 2008

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tessier_fde: Nobody is against corporations developing LinuxJun 12 23:26
tessier_fde: We are against corporations cutting deals with Microsoft which undermine Linux.Jun 12 23:26
tessier_ 13 00:57
tessier_You guys seen this yet?Jun 13 00:57
tessier_Another nail in the Novell coffinJun 13 00:57
tessier_Also:Jun 13 01:01
tessier_http://msftextrememakeover.blogspot.c...Jun 13 01:02
tessier_For example, I bought my first MSFT shares back in the early 90's. Like most holders that decade, I did very well. Then came this one, which has been an absolute disaster.Jun 13 01:02
tessier_There are too many issues to mention, but let’s review some of the real lowlights:Jun 13 01:04
tessier_Wow. Great list of major MS screwups.Jun 13 01:05
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moparxyou made some good posts today balzacJun 13 01:46
balzacthanks. I follow this pretty closely.Jun 13 01:47
balzacit's a pillow fight compared to regular politicsJun 13 01:47
moparx*nod*Jun 13 01:47
fdetessier_: How does anything Novell have done undermine Linux? They made Microsoft commit to an open source implementation of OOXML, and donated related patents to the patent commons - a group officially part of the Linux Foundation. They also happen to work on ZENworks virtualization management, and have advised Microsoft on how to make changes to support Xen... where is the problem?Jun 13 02:07
fdetessier_: There virtualization stuff has NOTHING to do with Linux at all.Jun 13 02:08
fdetessier_: SUSE Linux Enterprise both come with ZENworks... educate yourself.Jun 13 02:08
fdetessier_: It benefits their costumers, it does NOTHING against Linux.Jun 13 02:09
fdetessier_: Hell, the company that owns Xen has similar pacts with Microsoft, so I guess you're screwed on all virtualization? Nothing Novell is doing is bad though.Jun 13 02:10
balzacit's all about the software patentsJun 13 02:11
balzacIf Microsoft renounces software patents, I'll feel quite differently about Microsoft and their partners.Jun 13 02:12
fdebalzac: Ok, how is that Novells concern? They're just partnering with Microsoft to grow their virtualization offerings... to work together... it protects Microsofts patents because it's implemented within ZENworks, so they're not releasing their code, which is why they'd never have worked with Linux otherwise.Jun 13 02:13
balzacIf the general good of society is not Novell's concern, why is the well-being of Novell my concern? I'm free to criticize them for not being socially-engaged.Jun 13 02:15
fdebalzac: Microsoft is doing nothing wrong by having patents, it's utterly legal. By boycotting companies that follow the law, you're not really fighting the issue at all.Jun 13 02:15
fdebalzac: Their only concerns are their customers and their bottom line.Jun 13 02:15
balzacOn the issue of software patents, I'm willing to practice civil disobedience in defiance of the law. I refuse to be robbed of my freedom and arbitrarily taxed by software patent claims.Jun 13 02:15
fdebalzac: Same as any company, but they're also one of the largest contributers to open source, so surely that should count for something?Jun 13 02:16
fdebalzac: Not even Red Hat does more throughout the FOSS world.Jun 13 02:16
fdebalzac: They got more money than they paid... and it wasn't for patents, it was to show good faith in the shared projects.Jun 13 02:18
balzacfde, making gigabytes, terabytes or petabytes of code is not the issue. It's whether the code is intended to attack my freedom which matters to me.Jun 13 02:18
balzacSuppose someone talks a lot. Suppose the talk for hours. That's got to count for something, right? Not if what they're saying pisses me off.Jun 13 02:19
fdebalzac: Well, most everything they do is GPL'd, so I guess they care about your freedom.Jun 13 02:19
balzacThere is no shortage of code.Jun 13 02:19
balzacwell, the GPL is all well and good, but the software patent strategy goes beneath copyright law and makes the GPL irrelevant.Jun 13 02:19
fdebalzac: Microsoft isn't stupid enough to sue anyone in the Linux ecosystem... not even they could survive that train wreck.Jun 13 02:20
balzacIf we're moving from the battleground of copyright law into the battleground of patent law, it's time for new methods of resistance. I think GPLv3 addresses the issue with patent provisions.Jun 13 02:21
balzacfde: when you said "everything they do is GPL'd", were you referring to GPLv2 or GPLv3?Jun 13 02:21
fdebalzac: Novell is providing everything as part of the openSUSE project, so corporations are the only ones such deals are aimed at... those paranoid companies that are clueless, for the same purposes as indemnification previously.Jun 13 02:22
fdebalzac: Some of both.Jun 13 02:22
fdebalzac: You gonna boycott everyone that ever provided indemnification to customers?Jun 13 02:23
fdebalzac: Bottom line, Microsoft will never sue, as part of the deal they have donated related patents to the Linux Foundation even... and Novell made about $200+ million out of the deal, and convinced Microsoft to qualify Linux in the business place.Jun 13 02:24
fdeWhy is any of that bad for Linux?Jun 13 02:24
balzacIt depends on their state position on software patents. A defensive software patent collective under a non-profit entity would offend me less than an aggressive software patent claimant which was a proprietary software company.Jun 13 02:25
balzacI'm against software patents altogether. I'd rather there were not even defensive software patent claims because that legitimizes the software patent claims of those who seek to end user freedom.Jun 13 02:25
fdebalzac: They have a right to patent things... obviously they're not being very aggressive, no one has been sued yet have they? So what is the problem?Jun 13 02:26
fdebalzac: Fight the law, not the people obiding by it.Jun 13 02:26
balzac"Linux" is losing value to me. The kernel is filled with proprietary blobs, LT refuses to upgrade the license for the Linux Kernel. I'm still enthusiastic about pushing GNU/Linux as an alternative to Windows, but I'm starting look for alternatives to the Linux Kernel.Jun 13 02:28
fdebalzac: If you dislike the FUD, well, Boycott Novell provides just as much FUD, so I guess you only dislike it if it does't agree with your view?Jun 13 02:28
balzacPatenting "things" is okay with me, but patenting ideas is not okay with me.Jun 13 02:28
fdebalzac: lol... good luck with that.Jun 13 02:28
fdebalzac: Just don't include the binary-only blobs?Jun 13 02:29
balzacWell, I almost had a viable alternative when Sun's president discussed publishing the Solaris kernel under GPLv3.Jun 13 02:29
balzacMaybe LT will change his mind.Jun 13 02:29
balzacRegardless, I'm still thinking of something other than a monolithic kernel for the future.Jun 13 02:30
fdebalzac: It's not up to Linus, he doesn't write much code anymore.Jun 13 02:30
balzacwell, he owns the trademark, so it is up to him. Code is replaceable.Jun 13 02:30
fdebalzac: It's up to the copyright holders on the code itself.Jun 13 02:30
fdebalzac: Umm, you have any idea how much code would need to be re-written?Jun 13 02:31
fdebalzac: Pretty much all of it... which would set people back about 5 years.Jun 13 02:31
balzacLinus could start a GPLv3-licensed kernel fork and most kernel developers would probably follow. It's his choice.Jun 13 02:31
balzacfde, the transition could be more painless than you think.Jun 13 02:31
fdebalzac: it is NOT his choice at all... he just merges code others write.Jun 13 02:31
fdebalzac: It really couldn't... they'd have to throw out about 80% of code.Jun 13 02:32
balzacThe "Linux" trademark is his. 2% of the code, approximately.Jun 13 02:32
balzacfde: probably not. If he expressed his intention to make that transition, it could be done. Lots of contributors would follow.Jun 13 02:32
fdebalzac: There is no code involved in a word.Jun 13 02:32
balzacThere is great influence in the "Linux" brand.Jun 13 02:33
balzacI have no doubt he could lead the transition and that it would succeed.Jun 13 02:33
fdebalzac: Ok... and active developers might go along with it... you'd still lose almost all of it, simple because most of the developers don't even exist anymore.Jun 13 02:33
balzacWhat, they're dead?Jun 13 02:34
fdebalzac: Like I said, maybe after 5 years of work... Linus simply doesn't give a damn about that.Jun 13 02:34
fdebalzac: A few are actually.Jun 13 02:34
balzacCode can be replaced... unless ideas are copyrighted, and then they can kick down your door for writing code someone else claimed as their personal idea.Jun 13 02:34
balzaci meant patented, not copyrightedJun 13 02:34
balzacif ideas are patented, code cannot be replaced. you must pay the tax to your new overlords.Jun 13 02:35
fdebalzac: Yes it can, like I said, writing that code would take YEARS... it's not as easy as you think...Jun 13 02:35
balzacthere's more code lying around, waiting to be contributed than you think.Jun 13 02:35
balzacanyway, i'm patient and i'm willing to wait.Jun 13 02:35
fdebalzac: Ok, but that's also useless as things are usually GPLv2 only... so what does that help?Jun 13 02:36
fdebalzac: You're not a programmer are you?Jun 13 02:36
balzacI haven't built anything new but I program.Jun 13 02:36
fdebalzac: Cool, you're patient, are customers? Are people providing for the Linux ecosystem?Jun 13 02:36
balzacgenerally, I modify what other's have built.Jun 13 02:36
balzacI plan to be deploying GNU/Linux for businesses.Jun 13 02:37
fdebalzac: How old are you?Jun 13 02:37
balzacThat's getting kind of personalJun 13 02:37
fdebalzac: Well, you seem about 14Jun 13 02:37
fdeTerribly idealistic, and very impressionable.Jun 13 02:37
balzacthat's an odd idea.Jun 13 02:37
fdeIf you're any older, I feel extremely bad for you.Jun 13 02:38
balzacactually, i'm very cynical and world weary. Also, i've got a keen eye for opportunity.Jun 13 02:38
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moparx:/Jun 13 02:39
balzacI was just about to explain to him how I expect to make money by criticizing Microsoft and their partners.Jun 13 02:41
balzacThat would clear up his misconception that I'm some kind of mushy-headed idealist.Jun 13 02:42
moparxshame he didn't stick aronud longerJun 13 02:47
balzacMy strategy is based on my understanding of group-psychology and game theory.Jun 13 02:48
balzacPeople are going to throw off their shackles en-mass. Why should they accept the arbitrary imposition of authority on them? Companies which facilitate this process will profit, and companies which resist will lose.Jun 13 02:49
balzacPeople won't have to understand the ideology, they'll just get their business software, games and cam-girls for less money.Jun 13 02:50
moparxwhich is all they really care about anywayJun 13 02:52
balzacThey think they're only getting challenged by idealists? Not any more. They're being challenged by entrepreneurs who see opportunity in undermining an obsolete business model.Jun 13 02:52
moparx*nod*Jun 13 02:52
balzacOne good example is Fabrizio Capobianco of ClipperZ who embraces the AGPLv3 and criticizes Google for refusing to host any AGPLv3-licensed projects.Jun 13 02:54
balzacIt's just old principles of business in a new context - alignment of interests at the expense of the archaic models of established businesses.Jun 13 02:55
balzacIt's kind of amusing how some people sit around emoting while others eat their lunch.Jun 13 02:55
balzacThe AGPL is to Google as the GPL is to MicrosoftJun 13 02:56
balzacGoogle will catch on and change their tune quicker than Microsoft, and eventually, I predict Google will host AGPL-licensed projects to show they're not planning to become obsolete.Jun 13 02:57
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schestowitzHeh. While I was asleep only 2 items made the front page of FSDaily. Both items are OpenSUSE advocacy. It seems like the gamers of the system are having a lot of fun! :-)Jun 13 05:09
*[H]omer sets ban on fde!*@*Jun 13 05:19
dsmith_lolJun 13 05:19
[H]omeryupJun 13 05:20
schestowitzfrom admin:  "I would just like to urge you to turn your attention to the fact this site is for free software related news. If you don't like an item that's posted just use the little button with the "-" sign on it to vote it down. Let's avoid making all these personal attacks."Jun 13 05:24
schestowitz"And to those who think they can get away with multiple accounts: I know who you are! I suggest you stop now so that I don't have to start banning IPs. If you can find some real friends to support your opinion great but don't bring all of your pretend friends along to the debate."Jun 13 05:24
dsmith_lolJun 13 05:25
moparxhahaJun 13 05:27
moparxhe posted that in the other two main submissions as wellJun 13 05:29
schestowitzOne of them (at least) was posted by an OpenSUSE Board memberJun 13 05:34
schestowitzBig blow to Microsoft: (BTW,Vista's marketing chief left a few months ago)Jun 13 05:42
dsmith_Posted by unregistered user at 6/12/08 3:26 p.m.Jun 13 05:51
dsmith_Sounds like positive change....Jun 13 05:51
dsmith_hahaaaaJun 13 05:51
schestowitzYup! I noticed that too. A lot of Microsoft chaps read his blog. Microsoft will, as usual, call it reshuffling or reorg (so the man /LEFT./).Jun 13 05:54
schestowitzJoe 'Zonker' Brockmeier (Novell employee) has just advertised "openSUSE Marketing Team" in the mailing lists. That was hours ago.Jun 13 05:56
schestowitzI wonder if marketing team includes responsibilities like gaming social network sites.Jun 13 05:56
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schestowitzFear of Linux coming Symbian: "Doubts raised over Android fragmentation" ( 13 06:28
schestowitz "SourceForge President and CEO Ali Jenab Resigns; Board Appoints Robert M. Neumeister, Jr. Interim President and CEO [...] MOUNTAIN VIEW, CA--(Marketwire - June 10, 2008) - SourceForge, Inc. (NASDAQ: LNUX), the leader in IT community-driven media and e-commerce, today announced that, effective today, Ali Jenab has resigned as the company's President and Chief Executive Officer, and as a membeJun 13 06:41
schestowitzr of the Board of Directors, to pursue other opportunities."Jun 13 06:41
schestowitzCan we find out how the new guy feels about .NETness and Microsoft 'open source' licences? There have bee concerns about the Microsoft sponsorship recently and now the CEO quits.Jun 13 06:42
schestowitzMark Fink gave the site a hard time with his mailing list message: He made it seem like the post was anti-Ubuntu, which clearly wasn't the case.Jun 13 07:03
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GraveDiggerlolJun 13 08:50
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mib_v202j4Hi folks, where can I find yesterdays channel log?Jun 13 16:46
*mib_v202j4 pokes the logger_botJun 13 16:48
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mib_v202j4Anyone alive here?Jun 13 17:20
mib_v202j4Could you please point me to where I can find yesterdays channel log?Jun 13 17:21
mib_v202j4Come on, what's the matter? Yesterday I was told that this wouldn't be a problem an now?!Jun 13 17:28
tessier_If it isn't on the website it will be soonJun 13 17:44
tessier_It will be a link on BN. Roy puts it up when he gets to it.Jun 13 17:44
mib_v202j4Nice. Thanks, I'm looking forward to it.Jun 13 17:56
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tessier_ 13 18:56
tessier_Looks like it was there all along.Jun 13 18:56
tessier_What a douche.Jun 13 18:56
schestowitzS/he was here yesterday. Seemingly an OpenSUSE/Novell person.Jun 13 18:57
schestowitzYou might find it amusing if you watch the front page of FSDaily. A lot of items used to be promoted there and now it's just filled with SUSE advocacy. It's like the site was grabbed.Jun 13 19:02
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[H]omerevening allJun 13 19:05
mib_tamp53Hello.Jun 13 19:05
[H]omerwhat's been happening?Jun 13 19:05
mib_tamp53I'm looking for yesterdays irc log. has it already been published, and if not, when will it happen?Jun 13 19:06
[H]omerdunno. ask royJun 13 19:06
mib_tamp53schestowitz: Hello, I'm looking for yesterdays irc log. has it already been published, and if not, when will it happen?Jun 13 19:06
[H]omerwas there something in particular you were looking for, because I have a log here (incomplete)Jun 13 19:07
schestowitzYesterday... <mib_m619s6>: schestowitz: And now we get to the problem. Those stories are just stories (as in fictional stories) as in reports (that are based on facts). Honestly you see a conspiracy behind a suse dev posting a link to a faq that actually contains more facts than your whole site and get excited about their community manager looking for people to help to increase the popularity. I mean WTF!? Seriously if you have a problem Jun 13 19:08
[H]omerOh I see ... he's a trollJun 13 19:09
schestowitzNymshifting too.Jun 13 19:10
[H]omerI have a cure for thatJun 13 19:10
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schestowitzYou're too kind. Bless you, here's a tissue.Jun 13 19:11
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schestowitzOh, dear. It's like whack-a-mole.Jun 13 19:13
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mib_t7aw2ysorry guys, but did you notice that those nicks result from using mibbit. whomever schestowitz cited was not me!Jun 13 19:13
mib_t7aw2yso would you please refrain from kicking me?Jun 13 19:14
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schestowitzWhat's mibbit?Jun 13 19:14
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schestowitzHiJun 13 19:14
schestowitzWait...Jun 13 19:15
darwinhelloJun 13 19:15
schestowitzWhat is mibbit?Jun 13 19:15
darwinsorry guys, but did you notice that those nicks result from using mibbit. whomever schestowitz cited was not me!Jun 13 19:15
darwinits an irc at wokr (web based)Jun 13 19:15
darwin*workJun 13 19:15
schestowitzOh, sorry about this.Jun 13 19:15
darwinno worries since i finally managed to explain you this :)Jun 13 19:16
schestowitzI did not know this. The logs are here: 13 19:16
darwinthank you very much!Jun 13 19:16
schestowitzWe have had some trolling issues here recently.Jun 13 19:16
tessier_Trolling? In a Linux advocacy related IRC channel? You don't say...Jun 13 19:16
schestowitzWell, I suppose you saw people coming here to fill the channel with very obscene stuff as well. Poisoning the well.Jun 13 19:17
schestowitzRe: smears in general, someone just sent this by E-mail:  There's also this message: "Whatever you've been pressing lately seems to have struck a nerve and resulted in the attack.  So keep up the good work, it's having a positive effect. I wonder, though, if this attack isn't also related to the job that Computerworld author Todd R. Weiss and the editors there at CW did on tJun 13 19:23
schestowitzhe Boy Scout article.   That article was just *too* much of a troll."Jun 13 19:23
schestowitz ... "You have just exposed yourself. Then it's you indeed who is trolling the IRC channel."Jun 13 19:37
darwiner, if this is targeted at me then I have to say: no it is not me (once again). The reason I wanted to see that log cause I read here that quite a few suse devs / members came to this channel and I wanted to know how this discussion went. Also it is not really suprising that quite a few people are interested since there is a lot discussion on websites / forums. However, regardless if he trolled irc or not, afaik hisJun 13 20:02
tessier_darwin: The IRC log from yesterday has been on BN since 4am or soJun 13 20:05
schestowitzGMT-5:00Jun 13 20:05
darwinyes, i know & am reading it atm. i was just not sure if the last comment was directed at me.Jun 13 20:06
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schestowitzwb, <moparx>Jun 13 20:19
moparxheyJun 13 20:20
moparxanything interesting happening today?Jun 13 20:21
schestowitzNo major news, but on Microsoft's side it looks grim. As I said recently, they have had no major products or announcements for a long time. They just have bad news and failures to share.Jun 13 20:22
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*darwin finished readingJun 13 20:40
darwinSo, although this was a nice read, another thing is that the latest article: is wrongJun 13 20:41
schestowitzI can see you cursed there. No manners?Jun 13 20:42
darwinSorry, where did I curse?Jun 13 20:42
darwinMy poin t is that it is perfectly fine - and in complainance with the GPL - to distribute binary packages only to selected individuals (as in paying customer). And since only the paying customer receive binaries and, according to the GPL, only people who get a binary can demand the source, only paying customer have a right to demand the source which they can receive afaik.Jun 13 20:45
darwinSo, regardless if this Chris was trolling the IRC or not, he has a point. What is your stand regarding this?Jun 13 20:46
schestowitzAre you Chris, darwin?Jun 13 20:46
darwinschestowitz: as i already told you, no i am not. (also i guess chris is the one you were referring to with IRC trolling when i joined)Jun 13 20:48
schestowitzOK, sorry. So you both requested the IRC logs. Interesting timing. Mea cupla.Jun 13 20:49
darwinAgain, no worries. Nevertheless I think that Chris is correct regarding his interpretation of the GPL and would like to know what your point of view regarding this is.Jun 13 20:49
schestowitzAre you schizophrenic? Fair question, I think.Jun 13 20:50
darwinschestowitz: seriously, but wtf? All I did was asking you for an irc log since i read about some kind of internet war & wanted to build my own picture. Further I wanted to point out that your latest article is wrong since the interpretation of the GPL is wrong. How did I offend you thereby?Jun 13 20:56
schestowitzI see what 'Chris' says there. It's rude, which makes it hard to have a debate.Jun 13 20:56
darwinschestowitz: Yes, but I am not Chris & I don't care about Chris. All I am saying his claim "If you have no right to receive the binary rpms you have no claim whatsoever to get the src.rpms [and therefore only paying customers get updates & src.rpms]." is perfectly in compliance with the GPL which then leads to your article being wrong.Jun 13 21:00
schestowitzMay I ask politely about your professional affiliation? (please)Jun 13 21:01
darwinI have no professional affiliation with any firm atm since i work as freelancer & am under no contract atm.Jun 13 21:03
schestowitzWhich firm? URL? I'm sorry to be asking this, but I just want to know who I speak to.Jun 13 21:04
darwinMy own firm. And, excuse me, but I wont give you any URLs or so since I don't want to get dragged into some kind of "internet war". All I would like to know if your article is wrong or, if you think not, what your interpretation of the GPL is regarding this subject. Since this is a purely professional / objective matter and - to my best knowledge I haven't insulted you in any way - I don't really see a point in yourJun 13 21:08
schestowitzIf anyone has a good OCR engine, I could use help with this one: (good find, will post it tomorrow)Jun 13 21:09
darwin*All I would like to know __ is if you know that __Jun 13 21:09
darwinschestowitz: So, do I interpret your behavior right by thinking that you wont discuss an impersonal matter (the interpretation of the GPL) without me telling you my name & probably where I live (although I don't think you could verify it so I could tell you anything anyways) although your article is wrong and the only one who agrees with me is some guy called "Chris" whom you dislike for his language & IRC visit?Jun 13 21:19
schestowitzHere is what I see. A person comes with different nyms, requests IRC logs and refuses to identify self. What should one deduce? Are you embarrassed to put a name on an opinion?Jun 13 21:25
darwinschestowitz: I have no problem with giving you a name. So: Hello Roy, my name is Michael Müller. Have you noticed that your latest publication is wrong cause your interpretation of the GPL is wrong? So, how is that?Jun 13 21:32
schestowitzThat's better. How are you a lawyer or an engineer by profession?Jun 13 21:40
darwinno, i'm into software engineeringJun 13 21:41
schestowitzGood, same here. Here is my take on SLED. I believe it is not Free (libre) for various reasons. And bear in mind that IANAL.Jun 13 21:42
darwinIANAL?Jun 13 21:43
schestowitzOne key reason is the GPLv3, which continues to be a problem for Novell (yes, despite the granfathering). Novell isolated protected from unprotected.Jun 13 21:43
schestowitzIANAL = I Am Not A Lawyer. USENET acronym.Jun 13 21:44
darwinah, i seeJun 13 21:44
schestowitzAnother reason -- a more technical one -- is to do with access to source code. I can sympathize with occasions drop-by commenters from people who volunteer to help with GNU/Linux and sometimes the kernel. They see their work exploited the the door to their work then shut in their face.Jun 13 21:45
schestowitzNovell only permits access to its source to paying customers. This puts financial barriers. And that's only the tip of the iceberg. While I understand where Novell comes from (overcharging for lock-in), it bodes badly for Free software, which is intended to serve deprives nations too. Novell treats FOSS like Linus treats the GPL.Jun 13 21:46
darwinbut this (2.) is not true. Since the source is available to everyone who receives binaries it is far from their work being exploited. And if they really have a problem with that they simply should have chosen a license that forbids this.Jun 13 21:47
darwin^ regrding every GLPed softwareJun 13 21:48
schestowitzOK, that's debatable (bear in mind I have to go soon). How many people can buy those barrier. It's still a gate.Jun 13 21:48
darwinand specifically regrding Novell (the corporation) you have to admit that they contribute a pretty big piece of man / brain power to loads of FOSS projects. So you can't really blame them for releasing a subscription based distribution too.Jun 13 21:49
schestowitzI acknowledge that they contribute a lot and I give them credit pretty often. I also understand that Novell wants to defend its territory (there are no SLED/S knockoffs yet), but it's again this entire market  share philosophy Linus has embraced. It totally escapes the goals of the GNU project, to which people dedicte so much time and energy (me included).Jun 13 21:51
darwinIt doesn't matter how many people can buy a subscription. All that counts - imho - that according to the GPL they (Novell) have the right to do this way and if the developers have a problem with this they have to choose a different license. Last but not least it just takes one group to join up & buy a subscription and therby create something what CentOS is for RHEL.Jun 13 21:51
schestowitzLet's reiterate the fact that the barrier that broke the camel's back is a legal one (exclusionary patent deal and binary bridges).Jun 13 21:52
schestowitzNovell has to play with the team.Jun 13 21:53
schestowitzThese are the rules. It's the GPL.Jun 13 21:53
darwinSure, but MS offer not to sue Novell customers is as important (as in void) as their repetitive claims that the kernel and loads of other projects violates their patents (iirc they claimed a year ago the kernel alone violates ~260 patents but everytime one asked them to specify it & get concrete so it can be change they said nothing)Jun 13 21:55
darwinSo the real problem is not the MS <-> Novell but the american patent law (which is imho one of the most retarded laws in history of mankind)Jun 13 21:56
schestowitzIt's not quite like that unfortunately. You over-simplify the problem. Anyway, I apoligise, but I must run now. It's getting late.Jun 13 21:56
schestowitzBoth are problems, but Novell chose to exploit the laws to its own advantage and thus divide the 'community'.Jun 13 21:56
darwinthen I thank you for your time. perhaps we can continue some other time. good byeJun 13 21:57
schestowitzWill gladly do so. :-)Jun 13 21:59
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[H]omerAfter careful consideration, I have come to the conclusion that SLED *is* Free Software, insofar as the exclusive distribution of corresponding sources is concernedJun 13 22:27
[H]omer 13 22:28
[H]omersorry, I meant: 13 22:28
[H]omerThese two sections of the GPL FAQ explain all:Jun 13 22:29
[H]omer"Does the GPL require that source code of modified versions be posted to the public?"Jun 13 22:30
[H]omer"The GPL does not require you to release your modified version, or any part of it. You are free to make modifications and use them privately, without ever releasing them. This applies to organizations (including companies), too; an organization can make a modified version and use it internally without ever releasing it outside the organization."Jun 13 22:30
[H]omer"But if you release the modified version to the public in some way, the GPL requires you to make the modified source code available to the program's users, under the GPL."Jun 13 22:30
[H]omer"Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money?"Jun 13 22:31
[H]omer"Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The right to sell copies is part of the definition of free software."Jun 13 22:32
[H]omerSo essentially, Novell is simply *selling* Free Software, as permitted, and indeed encouraged, by the GPL.Jun 13 22:33
maxstirnerSo the suse customers are become part of novell somehow, thereby making exclusive distribution internal distribution?Jun 13 22:33
maxstirnerThat's lovelyJun 13 22:33
darwin[H]omer: that is the point i was trying to bring across ;)Jun 13 22:33
maxstirnerThe question is, why should anyone contribute to free software that then becomes unfree?Jun 13 22:34
[H]omerdarwin: be aware, that I am a Free Software activist, yet even I must concede that Novell is correct on this pointJun 13 22:34
darwinmaxstirner: no, according to the GPL you have to give everyone that receives binary version of a program licensed under the GPL the modified sources as well - which is exactly what they do. There is nothing with "becoming a part of Novell".Jun 13 22:34
[H]omerdarwin: however, Novell cannot prevent their own customers from further redistributing that GPL covered worksJun 13 22:35
[H]omertherefore we (everyone else) may obtain those GPL covered works elsewhereJun 13 22:35
maxstirnerIf you like free software, you may not wish to contribute code to this sort of project, it's not even their GPL interpretation but ratehr the MS patent act that makes them repulsive to meJun 13 22:36
darwinNo, except they can demand the removal of logos, trademarks and so on just like Red Hat does it with CentOSJun 13 22:36
maxstirnerIf you like free software, go debian :-)Jun 13 22:36
[H]omerPretty much like what happened with MySQL not too long ago.Jun 13 22:36
maxstirnerThe art work is part of copyright/branding, even mozilla tried to do itJun 13 22:36
maxstirnerdid!Jun 13 22:36
[H]omerdarwin: yes, they have a right to protect their trademarks, as much as I dislike that form of "IP"Jun 13 22:36
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darwinwhy? If i have a logo that people associate with me i don't want other people to use it since it would make it pretty easy to spread lies about me.Jun 13 22:38
[H]omerI don't believe in "IP", period.Jun 13 22:38
*[H]omer is now known as darwin2Jun 13 22:38
darwin2have I just violated your rights?Jun 13 22:38
*darwin2 is now known as [H]omerJun 13 22:39
darwinNope, since i didn't registered it :PJun 13 22:39
[H]omerYes, but you get my pointJun 13 22:39
[H]omerThe fact that the law protects such "exclusiveness" does not make it rightJun 13 22:39
[H]omerHowever, Novell most certainly do have a right to make moneyJun 13 22:41
[H]omerThough I don't believe they need to use "IP" to accomplish that goalJun 13 22:41
[H]omerOr "protection rackets"Jun 13 22:41
darwinwhat exclusiveness exactly? My logos / trademarks or something I spent my time to create it? Point being if I create it it is mine & I can release it under my preferred license if i want. imho a good idea.Jun 13 22:41
darwinyou mix up intellectual property with software patents?Jun 13 22:41
[H]omerKnowledge (published, rather than one's private thought) should not be "owned"Jun 13 22:42
[H]omerIt is a perversionJun 13 22:42
darwinat least "protection rackets" makes me think thatJun 13 22:42
[H]omerand counter to academic principlesJun 13 22:42
[H]omerOne should sell actual *products* and *services* ... not "IP"Jun 13 22:43
darwinthat's too much comunism imho. If someone creates something he should be free to choose under which conditions he makes it available to everyone or not.Jun 13 22:43
[H]omerSell "ideas" is akin to selling the human soulJun 13 22:43
[H]omerCommunism has nothing to do with it. Communism is "state ownership and control" which is just another form of totalitarianism. What I advocate is *Freedom*, not totalitarianism. Please don't confuse the twoJun 13 22:44
[H]omerFreedom includes the freedom to sell products and services, but not by the exploitation of monopoliesJun 13 22:45
[H]omerMonopolies are just another form of totalitarianismJun 13 22:46
[H]omerControlled by corporations rather than governmentJun 13 22:46
darwinSo, following your theory, as soon as anyone would invent something everyone would be allowed to use it and the inventor would have no possibility to earn something from his invention, correct?Jun 13 22:46
[H]omerNo, as soon as anyone *publishes* knowledge, that knowledge "belongs" to the worldJun 13 22:47
[H]omerThe alternative is Orwellian mind controlJun 13 22:47
[H]omerI cannot "un-know" factsJun 13 22:47
darwinSo I'm not allowed to publish it to a restricted group (e.g. my friends) but it is an all or nothing approach?Jun 13 22:48
darwinnote that i could replace "my friends" as well with "my customers"Jun 13 22:48
[H]omerYou cannot "take back" knowledge from those who discover itJun 13 22:49
darwinsure notJun 13 22:49
[H]omerAttempting to control the dissemination of information that has already been "released" is Draconian censorship and totalitarian controlJun 13 22:49
[H]omerThere are other ways to make money - that is *not* an ethical methodJun 13 22:50
[H]omerBut WRT the point about Novell, yes you are rightJun 13 22:51
[H]omerThey have a right to sell software to their customers, and give only those customers the corresponding sources. And their customers have the right to further redistribute any Free Software that they receiveJun 13 22:52
darwinWhile I certainly think that this would be a nice world to live in but I don't think that it will happen before someone invented a Star Trek replicator / waste -> energy transformator ;)Jun 13 22:53
[H]omerIdealism is, by design, impracticalJun 13 22:53
[H]omerPeople do not follow idealism for "real world" reasonsJun 13 22:54
[H]omerThey follow it because it is what they believe inJun 13 22:54
*tacone ( has left #boycottnovell ("Going. Much love.")Jun 13 22:54
*maxstirner has quit ("Leaving")Jun 13 22:54
[H]omerI'm sure the black slaves in America felt similarly before the abolition of slaveryJun 13 22:55
darwinduh, that's a bit far fetched comparisation.Jun 13 22:55
[H]omerNot at all. Draconian control of the dissemination of information is a form of intellectual slaveryJun 13 22:56
[H]omerOne does not need to be wearing chains to be a slaveJun 13 22:56
[H]omerI have some mail to catch up on. Back in 20 minutes.Jun 13 22:58
darwini have to run too. thanks for the talk & take careJun 13 22:59
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*Slike ( has left #boycottnovellJun 13 23:08

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