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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 1st, 2009 - Part 3



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schestowitzI see a lot of shill analysts these days like Ina Frief, Shane O'Neil etc. The press is becoming a Turf for a set of shills taking turns. It keeps the publications alive for longerApr 01 17:09
YfrwlfI think it's pretty easy to say that all political leaders in the U.S. were put there by corporations.  If the media doesn't show your face, you don't get elected, that's a fact.  Who owns the media, lets see hmmm MSNBC...yeah, I know there are many others, but still. :PApr 01 17:09
schestowitzOT: A vision for the Amazon < http://www.chinadialogue.net/arti... >Apr 01 17:09
schestowitzYfrwlf: yes, it's conventional assertion.Apr 01 17:09
schestowitzIn fact, even the public is awar of it, BUTApr 01 17:09
schestowitzThey know not what to do about it... they are kept powerless and separate from one anotherApr 01 17:10
schestowitzWhat would you, as a Texan in your 60s (say), do if you knew the invasion in Iraq was driven by corruption and lies? What to do next? Convince friends who are busy watching TV to take a place to the National Mall? Go ahead and vandalise things in the streets? Start a blog in blogspot with 0 readers?Apr 01 17:11
YfrwlfRight, well I think each industry has had, or is having, its downfall.  It doesn't take that long before an industry is configured to ruthlessly tout the bigger players in every way it can, and that helps them stay in power.  What has happened through time with industries?  The mergers of companies into a few monopolies.Apr 01 17:11
schestowitzThat's the finesse of the system. People are not able to resist it unless they organise -- a practise that's properly suppressed and has been suppressed in the US for decades. same in the UK wrt independent pressApr 01 17:12
YfrwlfRight, but that's what governments want of course, is to lay low and out of sight.  That's what businesses do, too, who are under public scrutiny.  Relocate to a building without a sign.  I've seen it. :PApr 01 17:12
schestowitzYfrwlf: convergence in oligopoly is natural. Market forces without regulation lead to a sort of totality, not communism Apr 01 17:13
schestowitzWatch how few companies took control of all small papers and radio stations, along with the agendaApr 01 17:13
schestowitzNot really.Apr 01 17:13
schestowitzWell, government is the shadow cast upon the peopleApr 01 17:13
schestowitzIt's a scapegotApr 01 17:13
YfrwlfOr better yet, pretend that citizens are making a difference, when they aren't.  That's what I fear about Obama's new technology and transparency agendas, but at least, in theory, he's "trying".. (to make things appear better)Apr 01 17:14
schestowitzIt's run by people who put it there.Apr 01 17:14
schestowitzSo they can proxify via governmentApr 01 17:14
schestowitzAnd criticism is then directed at establishments, not private tyrannies (corporations)Apr 01 17:14
schestowitz"Trying" = part of the illusionApr 01 17:14
schestowitzHad he tried, then he and Biden wouldn't put the RIAA in charge of US DOJApr 01 17:15
schestowitzIt's already happeningApr 01 17:15
schestowitzKill softly and smileApr 01 17:15
YfrwlfRight, watch how nothing ever happens when something illegal is done, or something that should have been illegal.  Nothing.  They resign, at worst.Apr 01 17:15
schestowitzLike AllchinApr 01 17:15
schestowitzPretend it's all for the peopleApr 01 17:15
schestowitzEuphemisms like "democracy"Apr 01 17:15
YfrwlfyepApr 01 17:15
schestowitzWhile in fact it's far, far from itApr 01 17:15
schestowitz"We're" are equalApr 01 17:15
schestowitzMurdoch is just a 'little' more 'equal'Apr 01 17:16
schestowitzAnd his C channels 'present' both sidesApr 01 17:16
schestowitzIt's bad when strawmen are usedApr 01 17:16
schestowitzMade up debatesApr 01 17:16
schestowitzOr manufactured confrotationApr 01 17:16
schestowitzOver the wrong issuesApr 01 17:16
schestowitzLike.... whether Obama is more handsome than McCainApr 01 17:17
schestowitzBut never allowing choice to be shown or made where it mattersApr 01 17:17
Yfrwlfbut that's exactly why that conversation existsApr 01 17:17
schestowitzLike Iraw invasionApr 01 17:17
schestowitzPeople can't even tell where the candidates stand on issuesApr 01 17:17
Yfrwlfbecause they try to choose the best actors they can to fill the strawman rolesApr 01 17:17
schestowitzAnd it's no accidentApr 01 17:17
schestowitzIt's intended to be this way. The PR managers of campaign ensure thiosdApr 01 17:17
schestowitz*thisApr 01 17:17
Yfrwlfyou'd want them to talk about more specifics, yes, but at the same time the specifics of the law *could* be summarized by stating the spirit of the lawsApr 01 17:18
YfrwlfObama stated the "spirit" of his laws, his intentions..Apr 01 17:18
Yfrwlfthe problem is, you have to then watch how those intentions are being carried outApr 01 17:19
schestowitzWhere are you BTW/Apr 01 17:20
Yfrwlfwith bill riders and the sheer lawyer-level complexity of laws means hardly anyone even reads them, so they become very difficult to analyse to find out those intentions.Apr 01 17:20
YfrwlfTexas lolz :PApr 01 17:20
schestowitzOKApr 01 17:20
schestowitzCause it matter if the person is US-based or notApr 01 17:20
schestowitzI didn't knowApr 01 17:20
schestowitzSo I made up some analogy earlier, in a wayApr 01 17:20
YfrwlfyaApr 01 17:20
schestowitz"Texas" was coincidenceApr 01 17:20
YfrwlfyepApr 01 17:21
Yfrwlfjinx ^^Apr 01 17:21
schestowitzI think radio stations there are mostly ownedApr 01 17:21
schestowitzI alwways picture the people with a cowboy hat who say, "if Bush say it's the right thing to do, then go for it, he's from Texas.."Apr 01 17:21
schestowitzThat's the mantality of consentApr 01 17:22
schestowitzAlso with Bill gatesApr 01 17:22
YfrwlfyepApr 01 17:22
schestowitzThe role of the press, the media, the radio and intellectual is to praise the leader nio matter whatApr 01 17:22
schestowitzThey build public endorsementApr 01 17:22
schestowitzit's heathier for the populationApr 01 17:22
schestowitzNot always when it comes to foreign affairsApr 01 17:22
Yfrwlfmaybe it's partially due to the prideful nature of US citizens, and particular Texans, as a whole, I'm sure it doesn't help that mentality any at least.Apr 01 17:22
schestowitz (or treasury bubbles)Apr 01 17:22
schestowitzPeople want spendings on the city, lower taxes, etcApr 01 17:23
schestowitzIt's all possible to supplyApr 01 17:23
schestowitzBut based on debtApr 01 17:23
schestowitzAnd you hope that succeeding leaders will take the burdenApr 01 17:23
schestowitzSo this bubble is passed onApr 01 17:23
schestowitzLike Bush...Apr 01 17:23
Yfrwlfdebt is a horrible horrible thing that should only be done in times of war or great need basically..Apr 01 17:23
schestowitzCouldn't wait to go home in late 2008 as they saidApr 01 17:23
schestowitzDisappear and retire in the ranchApr 01 17:24
schestowitzThen Democrats lead with rancid toxic waste and get ad reputation in the booksApr 01 17:24
schestowitzIt's already happening with the bailout (Reps), which is now "stimulus" (Dems)Apr 01 17:24
schestowitzHP plans reign of ink from the cloud < http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1... >Apr 01 17:24
Yfrwlfwell taking blame for everything is a tough role, whether or not you expected it, it probably would effect even the darkest of hearts.Apr 01 17:24
schestowitzCloud reminds me of some homeless people running to some rich man's cocoon.Apr 01 17:25
schestowitzThey have no money, so they become slave/vassal/captive/hostageApr 01 17:25
schestowitzAnd more businesses will go down this routeApr 01 17:25
schestowitzThat's the appeal of 'clouds'Apr 01 17:25
schestowitzAnd the reason they want no real standardsApr 01 17:25
Yfrwlfsure, everything is moving to service models..Apr 01 17:26
YfrwlfrightApr 01 17:26
schestowitzused to be the case with E-mail (Gmail/yaooo/hotmail)Apr 01 17:26
schestowitzService =subscriptionApr 01 17:26
schestowitzSounds appealingApr 01 17:26
schestowitzCheap... like car with installmentsApr 01 17:26
Yfrwlfwhen dealing with clouds, freedom becomes possibly an even bigger issue, because instead of being captive to software on your own computer, you're captive to it on someone else's, making it even less free.Apr 01 17:26
Yfrwlfyep, and judging by how many computer illiterates there are out there, many will fall for them.Apr 01 17:27
schestowitzYes, it sounds goodApr 01 17:27
schestowitzThey renamed itApr 01 17:27
schestowitz"Clouds"Apr 01 17:27
Yfrwlfmaking yourself even less free, ratherApr 01 17:27
schestowitzUsed to be SaaS AFAIKApr 01 17:27
schestowitzNot the same, but similarApr 01 17:27
Yfrwlffluffy happy soft! ^^Apr 01 17:27
schestowitzPictures of winmillsApr 01 17:28
YfrwlfheheApr 01 17:28
schestowitz*windmillsApr 01 17:28
schestowitzWait some years until it rainsApr 01 17:28
BalrogHi everyone.Apr 01 17:28
schestowitzClouds=GodsApr 01 17:28
schestowitzSofwtare GodsApr 01 17:28
YfrwlfheyApr 01 17:28
schestowitzPray to the cloud, ask for your commerce dataApr 01 17:28
Balroghay Yfrwlf ... haven't seen you around before :)Apr 01 17:28
Balroghey *Apr 01 17:28
schestowitz"Please, please... man in the CLOUD... I need my contacts, but I can't get them off your cloud"Apr 01 17:29
Yfrwlfwell I think that Linux makes needing a software as a service cloud less relevant.  I think Linux makes software as a whole less relevant, but simply provides a platform for what doesn't yet exist, or exists only in closed-source form.Apr 01 17:29
schestowitz*LOL* http://www.blogicalthoughts....Apr 01 17:31
Yfrwlfgood eye catching ad :PApr 01 17:31
schestowitzYfrwlf: standards are a havenApr 01 17:32
schestowitzI fear that Microsoft will use some deformed unspecific MOOX (OOXML) in the 'cloud'Apr 01 17:32
schestowitzThat's rather obvious really, but it remains to be seen how it works outApr 01 17:32
schestowitzYfrwlf: the consent in IRC is that Microsoft is going down the drain, but there are exceptions to thisApr 01 17:33
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Yfrwlfthey will slow that from happening any way they can of course, and that means doing more of the same stuff they've been doing for foreverApr 01 17:34
schestowitzMicrosoft's new (and last) strategy: patents < http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.s... News/2246029/ >Apr 01 17:34
schestowitzI'm glad we've covered patents for like 2 yearsApr 01 17:34
schestowitzzoobab01 tooApr 01 17:34
schestowitzBecause now it's one of the most major issues and a last barrier to FOSS, then comes stuff like Google, Amazon... (DRM, cloud)Apr 01 17:35
Yfrwlfthere are so many ways that citizens are screwed over by a lack of standards...that's just one apple in the orchard (sorry, couldn't think of a better metaphor) ^^Apr 01 17:36
Yfrwlfa very big apple though don't get me wrong lolApr 01 17:36
schestowitzHiding a Mountain Of Debt < http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/c... >. I've read that UK debt is $3 trillionApr 01 17:36
Yfrwlfthink of all the billions of dollars that have been wasted on adware, spyware, and virus removal, not to mention general maintenance.Apr 01 17:37
zoobab01FSF lost freedom with GPLv3, Google won the lobbying to remove the Affero clauses from the main GPLv3 textApr 01 17:37
Yfrwlfand all the hardware that has been sold due to Microsoft's bloatwareApr 01 17:37
schestowitzBank pushing 120% APR loans < http://www.boingboing.net/2... > Burn, baby, burnApr 01 17:37
zoobab01so there is no freedom in the couldApr 01 17:37
schestowitzzoobab01: google still snubs agplApr 01 17:37
zoobab01and even if there is free software is the cloud, you put a proxy in between, and it makes no differenceApr 01 17:37
zoobab01Google hates AGPLApr 01 17:38
schestowitzI know.Apr 01 17:38
schestowitzIt ruins their business modelApr 01 17:38
schestowitz"Not good for shareholders..."Apr 01 17:38
zoobab01competitors can propose the same serviceApr 01 17:38
schestowitzGood for shareholders = (Typically) bad for human rightsApr 01 17:38
zoobab01anywayApr 01 17:38
schestowitzSuppression paysApr 01 17:38
schestowitzLockin paysApr 01 17:39
zoobab01there was an swpat workshop in Edinburg todayApr 01 17:39
schestowitzBe it DRM, formats, patents, etc,.Apr 01 17:39
Yfrwlfit's amazing to meApr 01 17:39
schestowitzzoobab01: PRO-swpats?Apr 01 17:39
Yfrwlfit's basically what profit ISApr 01 17:39
schestowitzzoobab01: probaly organised by lawyersApr 01 17:39
Yfrwlfif you had to compete directly with other businesses, your profit margin would be very low because of the competitionApr 01 17:39
schestowitzSeminar name: "how to monetise software"Apr 01 17:39
schestowitz[as a lawyer]Apr 01 17:39
Yfrwlfso how do you increase that?  Lock-in.Apr 01 17:40
schestowitzReal title: "how to incentivise inventors"Apr 01 17:40
zoobab01http://www.law.ed.ac.uk/ahrc/con...Apr 01 17:40
YfrwlfughApr 01 17:41
Yfrwlffirst it was "technology", now it's "inventions"? shoot me >.<Apr 01 17:41
Yfrwlfyes, your software (artwork) is such an amazing invention...Apr 01 17:41
schestowitzFamed Anonymous Anti-Palin Blogger 'Outed' by Lawmaker < http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dawn-teo/... >. See, no hope ever staying anonymous these days. Anyone but min-0microsoft got exposed, afaik.Apr 01 17:42
schestowitzzoobab01: grep aspApr 01 17:42
YfrwlfI didn't know that a LCD screen could display...pron...from a helicopter...what a breakthrough, here's your patent.Apr 01 17:42
schestowitzYfrwlf: programmer= inventorsApr 01 17:42
schestowitzYou can invent an algorithmApr 01 17:43
schestowitzYou don't need to code itApr 01 17:43
schestowitzJust to think about itApr 01 17:43
Yfrwlfand thoughts being patentable is particularly wrong.Apr 01 17:43
schestowitzPatents on rectangles cover diamonds tooApr 01 17:43
Yfrwlfat least RL physical objects are constrained by the laws of physics.Apr 01 17:43
schestowitzSome artists sue over imitation of  style.Apr 01 17:43
schestowitz"Hey! I invented this brush stroke... You!! give me your money"Apr 01 17:44
Yfrwlfit's infinitely more difficult to create something that functions in RL, unless, you know, there's nothing radical at all about your "invention" of course.Apr 01 17:44
Yfrwlfthat's just wrongApr 01 17:44
YfrwlfI invented this comic...this picture...this style of artwork...gimmy a break >.<Apr 01 17:45
schestowitzIBM tries to patent offshoring < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009... >Apr 01 17:45
schestowitzPj wrote about this too politelyApr 01 17:45
schestowitzIt's something you can infringe in using thought aloneApr 01 17:45
schestowitzThought infringementApr 01 17:45
YfrwlfLOLApr 01 17:46
schestowitzYfrwlf: copyrights might be OKApr 01 17:46
schestowitzFor some thingsApr 01 17:46
Yfrwlfpatenting a business model is also extremely laughable omfgApr 01 17:46
schestowitzAlthough..Apr 01 17:46
schestowitzI would not chooose themApr 01 17:46
schestowitzThere are better things than copyrightsApr 01 17:46
schestowitzLike CC or GPLApr 01 17:46
schestowitzYou get increased benefit from your work this wayApr 01 17:46
schestowitzBSD is the trouble hereApr 01 17:47
Yfrwlfmeh, IMO all ideas should be shared.  Where there is a need for something, there will be a way to get there.Apr 01 17:47
Yfrwlfvia money or volunteered time or government effort.Apr 01 17:47
schestowitzMeaning that people can render your work under different name/content and toss it around everywhere and even sell it as a book for profitApr 01 17:47
schestowitzRestriction of though sharing goes back to schoolsApr 01 17:47
schestowitzBut at school you get 'free' informationApr 01 17:47
schestowitzYour teacher doesn't charge you for lessons really.Apr 01 17:48
schestowitzOr application of this informationApr 01 17:48
YfrwlfI think the market and society will always create the mechanisms to get from point A to B if there is a need to do so.Apr 01 17:48
Yfrwlfright, but they'd like toApr 01 17:48
schestowitzBut the idea of elevating one above other is based on restriction of thought, application, or disseminationApr 01 17:48
Yfrwlfquite simply, businesses would like to charge you for air.Apr 01 17:48
Yfrwlfso where do you draw the line, is the only questionApr 01 17:48
schestowitzSo it corresponds to human instricts of wanting other being to do as you sayApr 01 17:48
schestowitzYou can'ty chanrge for airApr 01 17:49
schestowitzYou can for waterApr 01 17:49
schestowitzWater is privatised in the UKApr 01 17:49
schestowitzAir is hard to controlApr 01 17:49
schestowitzToo easy to 'steal' itApr 01 17:49
schestowitzElse there would be someone with a business plan for it, too.Apr 01 17:49
YfrwlfyepApr 01 17:49
Yfrwlflike on Spaceballs ;)Apr 01 17:50
schestowitzThere's the notion of better airApr 01 17:50
schestowitzLike tiered air or air neutralityApr 01 17:50
schestowitzWhere one person lives next to a lanfullApr 01 17:50
schestowitzPolluters.Apr 01 17:50
schestowitzAnd there's mineral waterApr 01 17:50
YfrwlfAlpine Air: Get away from the city and breath fresh air straight from nature...I can see it now.Apr 01 17:51
schestowitzSo nature's blessings too become a property, just like territoryApr 01 17:51
YfrwlfrightApr 01 17:51
schestowitzChina and Los Angeles have terrible airApr 01 17:51
schestowitzOlympic athletes even wore masks (at least one of them) in 2008Apr 01 17:52
YfrwlfI see a business ideaaaaaaaaaaaa $$$$$$$$$ lolApr 01 17:52
schestowitzSo you can't assess how bad air can be until it gets noticeably bad.Apr 01 17:52
Yfrwlfyes, Cali, you can have Idaho's fresh air, for only $10 per bottle :PApr 01 17:52
schestowitzBottle?Apr 01 17:52
schestowitzWon't last longApr 01 17:52
Yfrwlfkeg?Apr 01 17:52
Yfrwlfif you compress it? ^^  lolApr 01 17:53
schestowitzActually, purifiers make some senseApr 01 17:53
schestowitzI suppose some hospitals vend theseApr 01 17:53
Yfrwlfbut what about ozone gas :PApr 01 17:53
schestowitzWon't helpApr 01 17:53
Yfrwlfno I mean air purifiers produce it if they use ionization to purifyApr 01 17:53
schestowitzTSA's 'SimpliFLY' motto challenged < http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fl... >Apr 01 17:53
YfrwlfI bought an Ionic Breeze and it had a warning on it that it produced ozone, and may be harmful to anyone with breathing difficulties basicallyApr 01 17:54
schestowitzSo a little like freon in cans of deodorantApr 01 17:54
schestowitzSmell good, do bad to the atmosphereApr 01 17:54
Yfrwlfyep, not sure how much it produces or anything, but apparently enough to put a warning label on it...Apr 01 17:55
schestowitzSmell bad by not nathing, reduce greenhouse effect (boiling needs)Apr 01 17:55
schestowitz*bathingApr 01 17:55
schestowitzLinking as an office again: Pirate Bay linking could implicate Facebook, says lawyer < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009... >Apr 01 17:57
YfrwlfI love it how it's almost impossible to tell the difference between which (or what should) institutions are supposed to be government ones, and which are corporate ones..Apr 01 17:57
Yfrwlfthey all behave like corporations :PApr 01 17:58
schestowitzThey shouldApr 01 17:58
schestowitzBased on the belief systemApr 01 17:58
schestowitzThat which states that any entity that's not human gets the same rights but act like an unaccountable tyrannyApr 01 17:59
schestowitzSo even the post office is like a tyrannyApr 01 17:59
schestowitzIt's not really run by the publicApr 01 17:59
schestowitzThere are managers who can abuse subordinateApr 01 17:59
schestowitzProper tyrannyApr 01 17:59
schestowitzBut contained within a countryApr 01 18:00
schestowitzWeird April Fool's: Red Hat ponders going proprietary  < http://tech.yahoo.com/news/infowo... >Apr 01 18:20
MinceRi prefer http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?s...Apr 01 18:23
schestowitzNot funny!! Good idea ;-)Apr 01 18:26
schestowitzBetter than MSIEApr 01 18:26
MinceRthe lynx toolbar is definitely funny :>Apr 01 18:29
schestowitzMicrosoft employees too are using GNU/Linux now: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04...Apr 01 18:40
MinceRhttp://www.shlomifish.org/humo...Apr 01 19:06
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MinceRhttp://www.phoronix.com/scan...Apr 01 19:08
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Carl_Rover2k12Google shows its true face for Android by banning tethering apps from the app store: http://www.falsedichotomies...Apr 01 19:22
schestowitzAndroid=DRM, marketingApr 01 19:22
schestowitzit's Linux' worst nightmareApr 01 19:22
schestowitzHijacked by a large corporation, sort of fork and deformed to make the Big Business happyApr 01 19:23
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: best of all Google did it without any public conscent from T-Mobile, in fact T-Mobile has been playing good cop oddly enough http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/23/...Apr 01 19:24
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: so what other ilk has indirectly befallen upon the open source community?Apr 01 19:27
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schestowitzAGPL haters..Apr 01 19:29
schestowitzBut Google should be pressured over thisApr 01 19:29
schestowitzEven Apple caved due to iphone pressure from the publicApr 01 19:29
MinceRgoogle should be killedApr 01 19:30
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: move onto using Altavista and IXQuick as your primary search enginesApr 01 19:30
MinceRi've tried ixquick, but i'm mostly using scroogle now :/Apr 01 19:30
*MinceR gives AV a tryApr 01 19:30
MinceRwell, at least i can search without accents on AVApr 01 19:31
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Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: yea, mind you Altavista is now owned by Yahoo but they have kept the interface clean and most of the searches commercial free. They even use it as a platform to test new search functions. And Bablefish translator is still one of the best when it comes to translating respective languages or at least 2nd to BabylonApr 01 19:33
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MinceRso it's Yahoo!, except better? :>Apr 01 19:33
Carl_Rover2k12they did remove video searches thoughApr 01 19:33
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MinceRand i suppose i'd have to use it through Tor to keep my privacyApr 01 19:34
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: whats with all the AGPL hating?Apr 01 19:34
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: yea.. and with Tor make sure you always use a new tab when going into a webpage because there is no way of going backApr 01 19:35
MinceRwhy? i didn't notice thatApr 01 19:35
MinceR(though i didn't use Tor that much...)Apr 01 19:35
Balrogwhich AGPL hating?Apr 01 19:37
BalrogAGPL is goodApr 01 19:37
schestowitzYes, Google, hates itApr 01 19:37
Balrog"Google shows its true face for Android by banning tethering apps from the app store" ... don't do it, and face loss of revenue from subsidies. A better way to do it is to block such apps only where they aren't allowedApr 01 19:38
schestowitzRMS made a compromiseApr 01 19:38
schestowitzFor open source whiners mostlyApr 01 19:38
Balrogdocumentation? I know google doesn't want to use it, but where?Apr 01 19:38
Balrogschestowitz: you mean that js hooking thing?Apr 01 19:38
schestowitzThey want to proprietarise GPL code using the networkApr 01 19:38
Balrogbut isn't code transmitted to your machine when it runs?Apr 01 19:38
schestowitzNo, nothing to do with JSApr 01 19:38
schestowitzThat's separateApr 01 19:39
schestowitzThe "JS Trap"Apr 01 19:39
BalrogI read that oneApr 01 19:39
MinceRBalrog: if android was good enough, it would sell even if no telcos would offer to sell themApr 01 19:40
MinceRat least outside the usaApr 01 19:40
MinceRsubsidies are less important when the device is as expensive as a pda/phone anywayApr 01 19:40
Balrogwell, in the USA subsidies are extremely important.Apr 01 19:42
Balrogwho wants to pay $700 for an unsubsidized phone (here, at least?)Apr 01 19:42
Balrogyou either play in the market or don't get anywhere, unfortunately, that's how it isApr 01 19:43
MinceRit isn't just a phoneApr 01 19:43
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: without subsidies there would be no other being to the handicapped plans US carriers have, people would be moving to Pay As You Go Providers such as Virgin and Boost by the drovesApr 01 19:43
MinceRiirc i've paid more than $700 for my pda/phone, and it isn't provider lockedApr 01 19:44
Balrogproblem with pay as you go is this: **NO DATA** or data is per-KBApr 01 19:44
BalrogMinceR: they should just force carriers to unlock devices after contract runs outApr 01 19:44
Balrogmany countries do thisApr 01 19:44
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog_: true but once you start entering "unlimited data" providers really don't make as much as they would hope to as per other limited monthly tiers.Apr 01 19:44
MinceRthey should ban locking completelyApr 01 19:44
MinceRor at least make it legal and accessible to unlock them at any timeApr 01 19:45
BalrogMinceR: that would work if there was a good way to recoup lost subsidiesApr 01 19:45
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: problems is Verizon actually changes the OS on certain phones, or installs their own which is forever locked. Unless someone does a JTAG reformatApr 01 19:45
MinceRtelcos need to be stopped from their customer-hostile practices and they need to be punished for themApr 01 19:45
BalrogCarl_Rover2k12: not only that, also, Verizon and Sprint use CDMA which no one else usesApr 01 19:46
MinceRBalrog: if they can't offer subsidies with fair terms then they shouldn't offer them at allApr 01 19:46
Balrogthere is no sim cardApr 01 19:46
MinceRs/with/on/Apr 01 19:46
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: South Korea and Chinese providers use CDMA and they have a healthy culture of unlocked phonesApr 01 19:46
Balrogthe same type of cdma?Apr 01 19:46
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: in SK its mostly a frequency difference, in China its their own kind with even their own special SIM cardsApr 01 19:47
BalrogMinceR: explain fair terms. Subsidies is a type of delayed payment systemApr 01 19:47
BalrogCarl_Rover2k12: SIM cards make changing phones practicalApr 01 19:47
MinceRBalrog: fair terms include no lock-in and no crippled software on the phoneApr 01 19:47
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog_: it also benefits the Chinese government greatly on requiring a backdoor for easedropping, but thats aside from the pointApr 01 19:47
BalrogWell, no lock-in once you've paid for the phone fully. As long as you haven't, it's not yet *your* phoneApr 01 19:48
BalrogCarl_Rover2k12: I realize thatApr 01 19:48
BalrogMinceR: crippled software is another storyApr 01 19:48
MinceRso you do pay $700 for the phone anywayApr 01 19:49
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: fortunately many Verizon folk using Winmo phones have managed to install firmware for Sprint on their phones to unlock features. Same can maybe be done, if not more easily, with Linux phones.Apr 01 19:49
MinceR:>Apr 01 19:49
Balrogyes. Once you pay the $700, I don't see why you should be restricted.Apr 01 19:49
MinceRalso, telcos should stuff these "no tethering" terms and similar crap where the sun doesn't shineApr 01 19:49
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: its because you are still using their "services"Apr 01 19:50
MinceRand what if the telco goes bankrupt in the meantime?Apr 01 19:50
BalrogBut price tags here are problematic. People cringe when they see $700Apr 01 19:50
MinceRpeople are stupidApr 01 19:50
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: this maybe a good excuse with dumbphones but not smart onesApr 01 19:50
Balrogno tethering is more about data usageApr 01 19:50
Balrogjust implement a meter so you don't go over the 5GB cap, and throttle during high volume hours, and it should be okApr 01 19:51
Balrog(meter meaning something visible to the user)Apr 01 19:51
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: I think Verizon Datacards require you to install PoePoe styled login software that comes with a data meterApr 01 19:51
Balrogno, meaning *on the phone*Apr 01 19:52
Balrognot on the computerApr 01 19:52
Balroginstalling bloatware on the computer isn't good for meApr 01 19:52
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: ok, then in that case someone should create an app for that, the only problem is it can only work on true multi-tasking OSsApr 01 19:52
MinceRif it's about data usage then they should state it as a limitApr 01 19:53
MinceRinstead of making developers cripple their phonesApr 01 19:53
BalrogCarl_Rover2k12: iPhone OS is a true multitasking OS; just jailbreak it ... there is such an app ... or you could even do 'ssh -D 8080 -Nf mobile@iphone-hostname'Apr 01 19:53
BalrogMinceR: they do, in the TOS (at least the data limit)Apr 01 19:54
Balrogit's not only the data limit, but also how heavy the usage isApr 01 19:54
BalrogCarl_Rover2k12: PalmOS is not a true multitasking OSApr 01 19:54
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: you mean the classic or WebOS?Apr 01 19:54
MinceRBalrog: yet above we see google blocking an app because it provides tethering and a telco didn't want it to existApr 01 19:54
BalrogclassicApr 01 19:55
BalrogMinceR: because telco TOS here says 'no tethering'Apr 01 19:55
BalrogI can't tell the telco to changeApr 01 19:55
MinceRwhich is what i'm talking aboutApr 01 19:55
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: actually it could be to a limited extent from what I read, but it requires developers to create apps that can specify the needed system resources without going over a certain limitApr 01 19:55
Balrogif I do iphone tethering I break the TOS, but will they know if I don't overuse it?Apr 01 19:55
MinceRand since we have states taking our weapons and our rights to defend our freedom away from us, the same states should force telcos to stop doing exactly that.Apr 01 19:56
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: telcos have the money, they pretty much bankroll the FCC and legislatures to do their bidding. read up on "Connected Nation" sometimeApr 01 19:56
Balrogwould you think they should be allowed to use deep packet inspection for tethering if they were to allow it? It's cellular serviceApr 01 19:57
Balrogon the service provided by tethering *Apr 01 19:57
MinceRCarl_Rover2k12: i know how the corpocracy worksApr 01 19:57
MinceRBalrog: i think they should be allowed to die in a fire.Apr 01 19:57
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: and then you have other interests groups such as Public Knowledge fighting with Connected Nation over stimulus money to the point of paying bloggers to report on the latterApr 01 19:58
Balrogwell, they're not going away anytime soon :/Apr 01 19:58
imamilkydrunki suppose that it's 1st april joke that yahoo bought freenodeApr 01 19:58
MinceRit is physically possible to provide telecom services without ripping off the customer, and there's probably good business in itApr 01 19:58
MinceRit just has to be made to happen.Apr 01 19:58
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: wasn't Helio supposed to be pitched as the savior?Apr 01 19:59
MinceRi haven't heard of helioApr 01 19:59
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: they were the result of a partnership between WorldCom and SK Telecom to provide reasonable contracts for high data plans with voice on feature rich phones from South Korea. It piggybacked over Sprint Nextel and Alltel networks.Apr 01 20:01
MinceRwhat happened to them?Apr 01 20:01
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: needless to say not enough people signed on and there phones quickly became obsolete from what was being offered by the iPhone and other media mogul phones. Worldcom backed out of financing and SK sold it to another MVNO VirginApr 01 20:02
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: simply put most people didn't seem interested in paying slightly more then comparable to other network plans in minutes for much cheaper data and being a smaller company couldn't release phones fast enough nor subsidize them to keep the American public attentionApr 01 20:04
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: in other words Americans mostly use their cellphones for two things talking and obsolete texting. As long as they can be offered a cellphone for next to nothing with those features and a fat set of minutes with fatter for nights and weekends they are happy as a clamApr 01 20:06
MinceRlol iphoneApr 01 20:06
MinceRwell, that's nice. i'm not an american, though.Apr 01 20:06
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: maybe the iPhone has changed that perception of cellphones in the US more, who knowsApr 01 20:06
MinceRhardlyApr 01 20:06
MinceRthe iphone fails hard at being a smartphoneApr 01 20:07
BalrogMinceR: that's your opinionApr 01 20:07
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: but its just enough to introduce features in such a way most of the public didn't even know a cellphone can do wellApr 01 20:07
MinceRso the RDF finally allows the typical american idiot to find a feature in the menu that has been there for a decade already?Apr 01 20:08
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: or pushed providers into being confortable introducing them in such a way they find profitable and previously locked outApr 01 20:09
MinceRwell, nobody needed providers to introduce themApr 01 20:10
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: sadly in the US for the most part, you do :PApr 01 20:10
MinceRas you can get a phone without the help of the provider over most of the planetApr 01 20:10
MinceRluckily US only covers a fraction of the planetApr 01 20:10
MinceRone can make a good profit selling phones even if the usians keep using empty cans connected with strings.Apr 01 20:11
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: for now, mwahahahahaha. US Intelectual Property and licensing world for everyone!Apr 01 20:12
MinceRi hope they can't push that nightmare on the rest of the worldApr 01 20:12
BalrogMinceR: EU (C) directives require DMCA-style anti-circumventionApr 01 20:12
MinceRBalrog: and yet i can get provider-independent phones in the EUApr 01 20:13
MinceRand i know, the WIPO treaty covers most of the planetApr 01 20:13
MinceRthey must be killed with fire.Apr 01 20:13
Balrogthat's because they recognize that variety of locking anticompetitive behaviorApr 01 20:13
MinceRWIPO copyright treaty or what they call it.Apr 01 20:13
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: most UN agencies are a farseApr 01 20:16
schestowitzYupApr 01 20:16
MinceRi suspected soApr 01 20:17
MinceRunfortunately i don't know a lot about the UNApr 01 20:17
schestowitz"How many times have MS hijacked other companies names in an attempt to confuse the public. MyPhone instead of iPhone, "PALM PC" instead of PALM PILOT. There are others I think. Now its Windows Server Foundation to confuse Joe Public with Lotus Foundations server"Apr 01 20:18
schestowitz"indows Server 2008 Foundation is intended for small firms without dedicated IT staff but that want to store files, share printers, host software and serve as Internet gateways  [..] Foundation servers will compete with servers running the free Linux operating system, such as IBM's similarly named Lotus Foundations server appliance." Apr 01 20:19
*amd-linux (i=54393cc4@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-af740a98ebb122b5) has joined #boycottnovellApr 01 20:19
schestowitzSpotted here by a reader: http://www.computerworld.com/action/art...Apr 01 20:19
schestowitzOffice Open XML...Apr 01 20:19
schestowitz"open document formats..." (today's example in BN)Apr 01 20:19
schestowitzThey have marketing people without shameApr 01 20:19
MinceRi don't remember MyPhone or Palm PCApr 01 20:19
schestowitzStealing associations and pretending it was innocentApr 01 20:19
schestowitzMinceR: not seen it?Apr 01 20:20
schestowitzPalm sued I think?Apr 01 20:20
MinceRnopeApr 01 20:20
schestowitzAnd MyPhone is recentApr 01 20:20
MinceRi'd expect them toApr 01 20:20
schestowitzBalrog would knowApr 01 20:20
schestowitzRoughly Drafted wrote about it IIRCApr 01 20:20
BalrogI can look it upApr 01 20:20
schestowitzMyPhone and iPhone are phonetically almost th sameApr 01 20:20
schestowitzSo Microsoft is piggybacking other people's good reputationApr 01 20:21
schestowitzRuining our vocabularyApr 01 20:21
MinceRunearned good reputation :>Apr 01 20:21
Balroghttp://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tec...Apr 01 20:21
Balroghttp://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/...Apr 01 20:21
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: Windows CE had potential, it was the first mobile OS to be able to use 2 3D APIs (DirectX and OpenGL) before any other even considered it. But then M$ and carriers found it too open for their liking and made WinMoApr 01 20:24
MinceRicApr 01 20:24
BalrogI see. WinCE was still legacy code, no?Apr 01 20:24
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: I think so, not sure how much of it was based in NT4.Apr 01 20:25
amd-linuxin other news: Google removed all music from Youtube as our content mafia wants 1 cent per view... boy, THAT sucksApr 01 20:25
amd-linuxfor German audienceApr 01 20:25
MinceRperhaps that will teach people to share their videos elsewhereApr 01 20:26
Balrogamd-linux: people will be pissed at the content mafiaApr 01 20:26
BalrogGoogle is making it clear to people who's responsibleApr 01 20:26
amd-linuxit was in prime time news just a few nminutes agoApr 01 20:26
MinceRi was pretty pissed off when they removed the account and all videos of a guy who makes funny video reviews of crappy PC gamesApr 01 20:26
amd-linuxon german state TVApr 01 20:26
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: like one that doesn't have crummy audio quality and pixelated supercompressed viewing except for those for commercial use that payed alittle extraApr 01 20:26
Carl_Rover2k12and have popup adsApr 01 20:26
MinceRBalrog: next time you'll say we should thank google for the whole thingApr 01 20:27
MinceRCarl_Rover2k12: indeedApr 01 20:27
amd-linuxanyway, we still have Last.FM, but Youtube grew to the largest music repoApr 01 20:27
MinceRembedding video properly would be a plusApr 01 20:27
MinceRinstead of adobe trashApr 01 20:27
MinceRor silver lieApr 01 20:27
amd-linuxwait for FF 3.5.... Opera will also support itApr 01 20:27
BalrogOpera will have ogg <video> ?Apr 01 20:28
amd-linuxthe <video> tag I meanApr 01 20:28
amd-linuxyes I think soApr 01 20:28
MinceRvideo player plugins have worked for quite some time already, even if not quite standardApr 01 20:28
amd-linuxI think it already supports it in a betaApr 01 20:28
MinceRthough i personally prefer <a> links to the video fileApr 01 20:28
Carl_Rover2k12amd-linux: that will be awesome as it will make the potential to create platform agnostic video contentApr 01 20:28
BalrogOh... Safari supports <video> and <audio> but you need the XiphQT quicktime component for OggApr 01 20:28
Balroghttp://www.xiph.org/quicktime/Apr 01 20:28
amd-linuxwell, that is the idea behind it....Apr 01 20:28
Balrogor a suitable plugin on windowsApr 01 20:28
Balrog(4.0 beta this is)Apr 01 20:29
BalrogI hope they make ogg the standardApr 01 20:29
Balrogor at least the de-facto standardApr 01 20:29
Balrogso that all browsers must support itApr 01 20:29
MinceRor at least all but IE :>Apr 01 20:29
amd-linuxisnt it already endorsed by W3C? for <video> tag?Apr 01 20:29
BalrogW3C is not sureApr 01 20:30
Carl_Rover2k12amd-linux: I thought W3C favored H.264 more?Apr 01 20:30
MinceRat least until apple and nokia decide otherwiseApr 01 20:30
BalrogApple expresses fear of submarine patentsApr 01 20:30
ToreadorVampireUrgh, you won't get professional web devs to switch to other technologies if majority-use browser don't support themApr 01 20:30
MinceRyou can't reasonably expect IE to support anything properlyApr 01 20:30
ToreadorVampireThis is why Flash has won the embedded video war atmApr 01 20:30
BalrogToreadorVampire: Firefox and Opera are not majority-use browsers? Pull out IE and see what happens.Apr 01 20:30
amd-linuxhey, anybody from London here? How was casual Tuesday? :-)Apr 01 20:30
amd-linuxahm Wednesday....Apr 01 20:30
ToreadorVampireamd-linux> Traffic hell I hearApr 01 20:31
MinceRthey could detect the browser and put on a message saying "if you can't see the video, you should switch to a real browser"Apr 01 20:31
MinceRor somethingApr 01 20:31
amd-linuxhehe I guess....Apr 01 20:31
amd-linuxmy website already does thisApr 01 20:31
amd-linuxi am actively blocking IE6Apr 01 20:31
ToreadorVampireI don't work in the city myself (I'm a teeny bit north) but my facebook news stream is full of "WARFLGARBL!  TRAFFIC!  TOOK 3 HOURS TO GET OUT OF LONDON" messagesApr 01 20:31
amd-linuxand made at least one person switch... ;-)Apr 01 20:31
MinceRyou misspelled WarflgrblApr 01 20:32
Carl_Rover2k12ToreadorVampire: 3 Cheers for the G whatever summitApr 01 20:32
ToreadorVampirelol MinceR I am using the alternative version :)Apr 01 20:32
ToreadorVampireG20 that would beApr 01 20:32
amd-linuxthere was a funny artivle on the Reg about bankers in London today, and one comment was great, from a banker who wanted to waer his stripe suitApr 01 20:32
ToreadorVampireHehe - but ... seriously - amd-linux what is the target audience of your site?Apr 01 20:32
amd-linuxand bash the protesters :-))))Apr 01 20:32
Carl_Rover2k12ToreadorVampire: even if its G375 nothing will come out of itApr 01 20:32
Balrogamd-linux: what's your website?Apr 01 20:33
Carl_Rover2k12except drunken world leaders of courseApr 01 20:33
amd-linuxLinux users... HP NX6325 Ubuntu users, to be specificApr 01 20:33
amd-linuxso no big site, but still.....Apr 01 20:33
Balrogurl?Apr 01 20:33
ToreadorVampireCoz I'm a professional web dev, and I wouldn't even consider taking measures to make clients' sites incompatible with IE6Apr 01 20:33
ToreadorVampireWhile IE6 has a market share over 5% I will support itApr 01 20:33
amd-linuxwill not reveal for some reason but google for ubuntu on nx6325 ...Apr 01 20:34
amd-linuxI wrote an article why I did itApr 01 20:34
ToreadorVampireAlso - how are you detecting IE6?Apr 01 20:34
amd-linuxWP-Ban pluginApr 01 20:34
Carl_Rover2k12amd-linux: we already came to an agreement on this channel before not to Google :PApr 01 20:35
amd-linuxand browser IDApr 01 20:35
BalrogToreadorVampire: I wouldn't consider taking measures against IE6 but I wouldn't put effort into making sites work with IE6Apr 01 20:35
schestowitzMore selling of children to corporations: http://boycottnovell.com/2...Apr 01 20:35
MinceRToreadorVampire: not to make them incompatible, just to display a warning stating that it might be incompatible :)Apr 01 20:35
MinceR(which it almost certainly is, if the page is standard)Apr 01 20:35
Balrogheh, I see your site.Apr 01 20:35
amd-linuxas my site's taget audinece is Linux crowd, it does not matterApr 01 20:35
Carl_Rover2k12amd-linux: and this is why I would never want to put Unbuntu natively on my laptopApr 01 20:35
amd-linuxbut of course a commercial website maybe can not afford to block IE6 (yet)Apr 01 20:35
Balrogit wouldn't hurt to put a warningApr 01 20:36
ToreadorVampireYeahApr 01 20:36
Balrogproblem with blocking is kiosksApr 01 20:36
Balrogyou may not have access to the software on a kiosk machineApr 01 20:36
MinceRif commercial websites can afford to force users to install adobe trash, why can't they afford to force them to install a real browser?Apr 01 20:36
ToreadorVampireI keep meaning to find a good javascript IE6 warning messageApr 01 20:36
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: Kiosks are DRM ridden consumer trapsApr 01 20:36
amd-linuxI donmt mind.... it is my webiste, and 90% of traffic with IE6 id was BOTS and attacksApr 01 20:36
BalrogCarl_Rover2k12: no, I mean the type that a school might haveApr 01 20:36
Balrogor a libraryApr 01 20:37
ToreadorVampireMinceR> Because:Apr 01 20:37
Balrogoften you can use a flashdrive and portable OS, but not alwaysApr 01 20:37
schestowitzamd-linux: the mafiaa did something similar to YouTUbe UKApr 01 20:37
ToreadorVampire1)  Chances are the end user has Flash already for their browserApr 01 20:37
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: ahh, ok. thats true, but that is if the school's PC admin did not convince faculty to do a wide scale upgrade alreadyApr 01 20:37
ToreadorVampire2)  The Flash content is specific content that cannot be delivered in a suitable cross-platform wayApr 01 20:37
amd-linuxGoogle nowadays is very powerful - i like how they fight this pressureApr 01 20:37
ToreadorVampire(without complex instructions that regular users could not follow)Apr 01 20:37
amd-linuxof the content mafiaApr 01 20:37
Balrogschestowitz: YouTube US as well, only with WB media thoughApr 01 20:37
MinceRperhaps there should be a plugin or activex control the user could allow to run which would ask the user for permission and then install a real browser and launch it :>Apr 01 20:37
Carl_Rover2k12amd-linux: fight, more like bend like BambooApr 01 20:38
schestowitzamd-linux: good news about opera,if trueApr 01 20:38
ToreadorVampireWhat?  A rootkit?  lolnoApr 01 20:38
MinceRToreadorVampire: entire commercial sites are made in flash nowadaysApr 01 20:38
schestowitzI didn't hear about them formally adding supportApr 01 20:38
MinceRyou can't even read the text if you don't have that crapApr 01 20:38
Balroghttp://my.opera.com/ResearchWizard/blog...Apr 01 20:38
schestowitzThey lobbies for Ogg more than anyone, I thinkApr 01 20:38
Balrogin 2007Apr 01 20:38
amd-linuxjesus too much traffic in this channel :-)Apr 01 20:38
ToreadorVampireMinceR> Oh, no - I'm not talking about those - they have no excuseApr 01 20:38
MinceRToreadorVampire: no, not a rootkitApr 01 20:38
MinceRit would tell specifically what it doesApr 01 20:38
Carl_Rover2k12amd-linux: Google only fights where they can see an unprofitable venture and brownie points from the public for doing soApr 01 20:38
MinceRbut the interface would (at least in the beginning) be embedded into a webpageApr 01 20:38
ToreadorVampireExcept, it wouldn't work on a large proportion of the machines that are currently running IE6Apr 01 20:39
amd-linuxanyway - the enemy of my enemy is my friendApr 01 20:39
Balrogwon't work if you're not administratorApr 01 20:39
Carl_Rover2k12ToreadorVampire: I thought most machines ecspecially in education upgraded to IE7 by nowApr 01 20:39
ToreadorVampireSince a huge block of the machines on IE6 are corporate network machines that are not running in admin modeApr 01 20:39
MinceRit could invoke the run as administrator dialog just like everything else can :>Apr 01 20:39
Balrog//most/ did, not allApr 01 20:39
BalrogMinceR: not in XPApr 01 20:39
Carl_Rover2k12ToreadorVampire: wasn't M$ very keen on keep systems up to date to prevent worms and botnets spreading?Apr 01 20:39
ToreadorVampireCarl_Rover2k12> Nah - I haven't checked recently, but IE6's market share is "still too high to drop support"Apr 01 20:40
MinceRon vista it could even work around UAC but i doubt that's a good idea :>Apr 01 20:40
Balrogalso there's windows 2000. Many still use itApr 01 20:40
Balrogthe newest IE for it is 6Apr 01 20:40
ToreadorVampireCarl_Rover2k12> Actually ... much of the reason that IE6 is still found on corporate networks is IE6's own faultApr 01 20:40
Carl_Rover2k12Balrog: true, but you can still upgrade to IE7 with that OSApr 01 20:40
Carl_Rover2k12ToreadorVampire: IE6's own fault?Apr 01 20:41
ToreadorVampireProgrammers who have been contracted in to build bespoke intranet applications for companies have created them for IE6 (with all of its quirks and such)Apr 01 20:41
MinceRboth plugins and RadioActiveX can write to disk, can they not?Apr 01 20:41
MinceRthough i'm not sure if they can launch programs from disk...Apr 01 20:41
BalrogCarl_Rover2k12: URL?Apr 01 20:41
ToreadorVampireAssuming that writing "non-standards-compliant" HTML/JavaScript/CSS is the right thing to do (it works in IE6)Apr 01 20:41
ToreadorVampireAnd then the company tries upgrading to IE7Apr 01 20:42
ToreadorVampireAnd boomApr 01 20:42
ToreadorVampireThe "improves standards support" in IE7 blows their bespoke app up, that they invested thousands of pounds inApr 01 20:42
ToreadorVampireWell, pounds/dollars/currencyApr 01 20:42
zer0c00lgnApr 01 20:43
*zer0c00l has quit ("bed")Apr 01 20:43
ToreadorVampireSo they stick with IE6, because they don't want to spend a stack more money having something (that worked perfectly fine before) re-written to work on "the browser of the time"Apr 01 20:43
schestowitzIE8 was released with very scarce coverageApr 01 20:43
schestowitzIt was poorly receivedApr 01 20:43
MinceRlol, "perfectly fine", he saysApr 01 20:43
ToreadorVampireThe problem is IE6's fault ... it didn't support "the real standards", but because it was around for so damn long, it became "the standard"Apr 01 20:43
Balrogyes. :(Apr 01 20:44
schestowitzO'Reilly Radar definitely became a junkyard. I'm trashing it.Apr 01 20:45
Carl_Rover2k12ToreadorVampire: well until now at least, I guess education and government PCs is its last bastionApr 01 20:45
Carl_Rover2k12and other kiosksApr 01 20:45
Balrogand windows 2000 systemsApr 01 20:45
ToreadorVampireWell, remember, a middle manager doesn't give a shit about *why* it doesn't work ... it's down to the bottom line cost of "changing the application" versus "freezing Internet Explorer"Apr 01 20:45
BalrogCarl_Rover2k12: I still don't see any info about installing IE7 on Win2KApr 01 20:46
ToreadorVampireMiddle managers don't care about web standards - they probably don't even know what they areApr 01 20:46
ToreadorVampireAlso - dunno if you guys already saw it - http://www.saveie6.com/Apr 01 20:46
ToreadorVampire(maybe that's where this conversation came from, I came in late)Apr 01 20:46
Balrogheh: "You have been mislead by a vocal minority and are using safari, which is clearly an inferior web browser to IE6. Please switch to IE6 and sign our petition."Apr 01 20:46
Balrogit's impossible on this platform :/Apr 01 20:47
BalrogLOLApr 01 20:47
ToreadorVampireBahApr 01 20:47
BalrogI wonder what it says in firefox/linuxApr 01 20:47
ToreadorVampireVirtualBoxApr 01 20:47
Balrogyou think I want to do that??!??Apr 01 20:47
ToreadorVampireOh?  On FF3/Linux it reads:Apr 01 20:47
ToreadorVampireYou have been mislead by a vocal minority and are using firefox, which is clearly an inferior web browser to IE6.Apr 01 20:47
ToreadorVampireBalrog> Well, it IS a joke site :)Apr 01 20:47
BalrogI see.Apr 01 20:47
amd-linuxOld news in this context (well from yesterday) but it really satifies me: http://arstechnica.com/open-sour...Apr 01 20:48
ToreadorVampireBut - just because I wondered, I did fire up a VBox instance and looked at it in IE6Apr 01 20:48
Balrog"Steve B. Bangal, Inventor of spaghetti code"Apr 01 20:48
Balrog:PApr 01 20:48
ToreadorVampireAnd it said something along the lines of "hurrah you're using the best browser evar"Apr 01 20:48
amd-linuxhttp://www.saveie6.com/ - coded in PHP ;-)Apr 01 20:49
BalroglolApr 01 20:50
amd-linuxapril joke, no?Apr 01 20:50
Carl_Rover2k12amd-linux: well the United States of Uhmerica ain't a bunch of Euro Frenchies are we. We will continue to gobble down burgers while using our All Uhmerican Microsoft products programmed by Indians and AsiansApr 01 20:50
MinceRit doesn't have linux binaries :/Apr 01 20:50
ToreadorVampireamd-linux> Well duh :pApr 01 20:50
Balrogdid you guys see http://cadiesingularity.blogspot.com/ ?Apr 01 20:50
ToreadorVampireHeh - click the "download IE6" link on that pageApr 01 20:50
amd-linuxCarl, lol ;-)Apr 01 20:50
ToreadorVampireSo far I'm at the 11th step of questioning me about my system :)Apr 01 20:51
ToreadorVampireAre you working for a newspaper in Norway?Apr 01 20:51
ToreadorVampireYesApr 01 20:51
ToreadorVampireYes, but I swear that I had nothing to do with the anti-IE6 campaign!Apr 01 20:51
ToreadorVampireNoApr 01 20:51
*MinceR is proud to live in the Anarchical Separatists of Unamerica ( http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wi... )Apr 01 20:51
amd-linuxMUHARHAR: You have been mislead by a vocal minority and are using firefox, which is clearly an inferior web browser to IE6. Please switch to IE6 and sign our petition.Apr 01 20:51
Carl_Rover2k12ToreadorVampire: should I be using a proxy when answering the IE6 questionaire?Apr 01 20:51
ToreadorVampireCarl_Rover2k12> Erm, I see no reason why it would matterApr 01 20:51
amd-linuxfrom http://www.saveie6.comApr 01 20:51
*ToreadorVampire shrugsApr 01 20:51
amd-linuxalso very good: IE6 has been the victim of false and misleading accusations all over the web, such as complaints about its compatibility with web standards. This is simply the confused ramblings of a vocal minority. After all, how can IE6 be violating standards when it has essentially BEEN the standard for years?Apr 01 20:52
amd-linuxlol :-)Apr 01 20:52
BalroglolApr 01 20:52
ToreadorVampireAnd yeah, I saw the google AI thing ... it wasn't that funny IMOApr 01 20:53
ToreadorVampireI did chuckle briefly at the page that took the piss out of myspaceApr 01 20:53
Carl_Rover2k12ToreadorVampire: dammit whats the right way to answer :PApr 01 20:53
ToreadorVampireCarl_Rover2k12> I dunnoApr 01 20:54
*amd-linux has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Apr 01 20:54
ToreadorVampireI just tried twice and got nowhereApr 01 20:54
ToreadorVampireI have a feeling that there is no right answerApr 01 20:54
ToreadorVampireBut then I only tried twice, then got bored and gave upApr 01 20:54
MinceRi tried once and got boredApr 01 20:54
Carl_Rover2k12tried twiceApr 01 20:55
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Carl_Rover2k12this chat quickly lost steamApr 01 21:00
*ToreadorVampire tightens the valvesApr 01 21:00
ToreadorVampireActually, I was distracted by my playlistApr 01 21:00
ToreadorVampireF&W:  You Will Understand came on, and I had to dance around the room :)Apr 01 21:01
schestowitz http://www.prwatch.org/node/8276 "The Nuclear Energy Institute (NEI) and Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) have more in common than being major industry lobby groups. Both have hired former Greenpeace activist turned PR consultant Patrick Moore to deflect environmental and public health criticisms."Apr 01 21:04
schestowitzhttp://www.prwatch.org/node/8309 (Airline and Online Lobbying on U.S. "Card Check" Bill) Nice to know companies still pay to corrupt the systemsApr 01 21:05
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: and to think Greenpeace got a nuclear plant closed down in the NetherlandsApr 01 21:05
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: step one to diminish workers' rights in our time, vilify unions via Auto Industry exampleApr 01 21:06
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Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: then quietly slip clauses against collective bargaining or seeking legal reprisentation against on the job acidents through state legislated bills that give the "choice" to workers on whether to join a unionApr 01 21:08
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schestowitzUnions are long deadApr 01 21:09
schestowitzThey are too democratisingApr 01 21:09
schestowitzThe biggest rival to a nation is an informed public. It's usually just treated like foreign enemy, but using different methods.Apr 01 21:10
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: I am well aware that the UAW and other large union lobbying groups are nothing more then honeypots for their execs while "negotiating" deals to help get corporations tax writeoffsApr 01 21:10
schestowitzThat's how it goes..Apr 01 21:10
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Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: yep, it still didn't help and even contributed to driving GM into the ground and now execs have an excuse to end their love affair with certain unions while vilifying allApr 01 21:13
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josehey, schestowitzApr 01 21:13
schestowitzHeyApr 01 21:13
joseif possible today as you have time, i want to get busy testing out some things on the databaseApr 01 21:13
schestowitzwhich DB?Apr 01 21:14
josefirst thing: anything that is sensitive (and hopefully there will be nothing) we can communicate over email.Apr 01 21:14
josethe db for BNApr 01 21:14
josei'll explainApr 01 21:14
josei'd like to try and see if we can manipulate BN's data however you see fitApr 01 21:15
schestowitzSGI is worthless -- just $25. http://www.pcworld.com/article/... (Rackable Buying SGI for $25 Million)Apr 01 21:15
josesecond thing: we must (IMO) proceed with cautionApr 01 21:15
schestowitzWHat can possibly be sensitive?Apr 01 21:15
joseuntil you are very comfortable with a routine and the update scripts, everything should be done on a separate databaseApr 01 21:15
joselet's say I asked about password.. well, don't tell meApr 01 21:16
josei'm just thinking of ground rulesApr 01 21:16
josenot sure where everything will leadApr 01 21:16
schestowitzThe CMS database?Apr 01 21:16
schestowitzOr Wiki?Apr 01 21:17
joseLet me describe a plan and tell me what you think about itApr 01 21:17
schestowitzWe could use improvements there.Apr 01 21:17
josethe db that holds the commentsApr 01 21:17
josebtw, i have no clue how much you know. i will not assume too much but stop my rambling whenever you think i am wasting timeApr 01 21:17
joseplan:Apr 01 21:18
joseuse the "mysql" utility/command running on the web host.. ok, do you have access to that command?Apr 01 21:18
schestowitzYesApr 01 21:18
joseeg, from a remote shell session?Apr 01 21:18
josegoodApr 01 21:18
schestowitzNot remotelyApr 01 21:18
schestowitzWeb-bsedApr 01 21:19
joseokApr 01 21:19
josehmmmApr 01 21:19
schestowitzBut I don't understand what forApr 01 21:19
josehow would you query the database and look over the resultsetApr 01 21:19
jose?Apr 01 21:19
schestowitzI mean, what you're suggestingApr 01 21:19
josealright, let me continue with the plan theory:Apr 01 21:19
josewe copy a little chunk of the comments (query db) and move it over to a new database (to be safe)Apr 01 21:20
josewe run a substitute/replace script on the queried resultsApr 01 21:20
josewe probably will have this in the form were we can do an update on the new test dbApr 01 21:20
josethen you inspect the results. if you like, we do the update on the main dbApr 01 21:21
josewe start in very small chunks of courseApr 01 21:21
joseyou also then inspect the main db.. eg, by downloading a webpage with those commentsApr 01 21:21
schestowitzWe couldApr 01 21:21
schestowitzBut to see what exactly?Apr 01 21:22
joseif everything works, we repeat, but perhaps using a larger chunk and eventually not even using the test db stepApr 01 21:22
schestowitzI could already use copies of the DBApr 01 21:22
josewell, to make sure that a substitution/replacement workedApr 01 21:22
josecopies of the db are fine.. easier.. just be carefulApr 01 21:22
schestowitzTo rewrite postsApr 01 21:22
schestowitz?Apr 01 21:22
joseto rewrite reader or whatever comments, eg, to add links to wikipediaApr 01 21:23
josewe can do any kind of processing but that was what you mentioned on the BN thread recentlyApr 01 21:23
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joseI know about numerous things, but have very limited experienceApr 01 21:23
josewhat we can do is i pass along everything to you and you execute at your discretion.. i just want to be safeApr 01 21:24
schestowitzI can do this just to new posts tooApr 01 21:24
joseany manipulation should be possibleApr 01 21:24
schestowitzWithout messing with older ones that I can't inspects manually.Apr 01 21:24
joseonce we do a few things, we should have the hang of itApr 01 21:24
schestowitzI saw some plugin in Bob Sutor's blogApr 01 21:24
schestowitzIf you write Ubuntu in the comments it's turned to a linkApr 01 21:24
schestowitzSo there might be some software out there which achieves this, but he uses Drupal nowApr 01 21:25
joseok, well, if you decide you want me to help, let me know. I wanted to be very cautious to encourage you to take risks.. yes, a plugin if it exists for waht you want would be betterApr 01 21:25
schestowitzDo you know such a plugin?Apr 01 21:25
schestowitzOR script?Apr 01 21:25
joseif you can't find, i think we can manage a little shell/bash processing to get everything doneApr 01 21:25
joseno plugin, but i think we can manage the "script"Apr 01 21:26
schestowitzTo run on some text file and output it with <a href="Wikipedia/..."> where suitab;e?Apr 01 21:26
josei know of noneApr 01 21:26
joserightApr 01 21:26
josei started by looking at the online source code for wordpressApr 01 21:26
josethere is a hyperlinked duplicate here http://phpxref.com/xref...Apr 01 21:26
josethe key files seem to be http://phpxref.com/xref/wordp... and http://phpxref.com/xref/wordpr...Apr 01 21:27
schestowitzhttp://linuxshellaccount.blogspot.com...Apr 01 21:27
schestowitzConficker demystified < http://www.heise.de/english/newst... >Apr 01 21:27
josethere are other important files. I'm guessing we can get by mostly on what is there though i look wherever i am leadApr 01 21:27
joseanyway, i then looked at the mysql docsApr 01 21:28
josehttp://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.1...Apr 01 21:28
josewe should be able to use mysql command to grab a chunk of the comments outApr 01 21:28
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josewe process those text files (eg, with a small perl script)Apr 01 21:29
josethe goal is that the result of that processing would be ready for update into the db againApr 01 21:29
josedoneApr 01 21:29
josebut we should work in small stepsApr 01 21:29
joseand use a test dbApr 01 21:29
joseand inspectApr 01 21:29
joseuntil you are comfortableApr 01 21:29
schestowitzTurnKey Linux to relaunch as TurnKey Windows < http://www.turnkeylinux.org/news/... > Joke....Apr 01 21:30
schestowitzjose: I don't want to process the DB out of the associated programApr 01 21:31
schestowitzJust for new posts I need a tool.Apr 01 21:31
schestowitzCorny one... Open Source Casino To Fund Open Source Development < http://www.linuxfund.org/casino/ >, but well intended.Apr 01 21:32
joseok, then i'll drop it... this is why i wanted you to do everything on a test db and proceed slowly. anyway, no prob here. less work for me now. I'll have plenty of ops to do this kind of stuff later on.Apr 01 21:33
joseso i'll drop the topic, but let me know if you change your mind.. i might leave irc soon, btw. i came on to talk about this topic only.Apr 01 21:33
schestowitzThanks a lot thoughApr 01 21:34
josesure.Apr 01 21:35
joselater..Apr 01 21:35
joseie, gnApr 01 21:35
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josei'm backApr 01 21:36
joseforgot to mention one thingApr 01 21:36
josethe procedure described of updating can be done with a php scriptApr 01 21:36
josei think that is less flexible, but you should be able to do it within wordpressApr 01 21:36
schestowitzNo, not PHPApr 01 21:36
josei suppose, short of finding such a script, it would be for you to write itApr 01 21:36
schestowitzThe issue is, I don't want to stress the serverApr 01 21:36
schestowitzSo it's better off done off-lineApr 01 21:36
josewordpress is build using phpApr 01 21:37
schestowitzBN does about 7GB /day nowApr 01 21:37
joseanywayApr 01 21:37
joseyes i thought about thatApr 01 21:37
josethat is why you query a small chunkApr 01 21:37
joseyou do small chunks at a timeApr 01 21:37
josemanuallyApr 01 21:37
schestowitzYesApr 01 21:37
joseanyway, from within wordpress would involve php codingApr 01 21:37
joseyou'd have to look closer at the plugin or hook architecture of wordpressApr 01 21:38
joseeg, maybe look at a plugin you already useApr 01 21:38
joseit would be written in php i would thinkApr 01 21:38
joseyou would want to do likewise.. that's my best guess without reading more or experimentingApr 01 21:38
joseone last thing.. to return to the mysql command partApr 01 21:39
josei was thinking of doing minimal processing on the serverApr 01 21:40
schestowitzhttp://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv... (Fourth Annual Movie-Plot Threat Contest)Apr 01 21:40
joseget mysql data in text file.. download.. process at your leisure. and them uploadApr 01 21:40
josehoweverApr 01 21:40
josethat might be worse in terms of taxing the db..Apr 01 21:40
joseit depends on how painful the scan/substitute processing becomesApr 01 21:40
josevs downloading and uploadingApr 01 21:41
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.70.86) has joined #boycottnovellApr 01 21:41
joseanyway.Apr 01 21:41
schestowitzWhy overcomplicate it?Apr 01 21:41
joseyou  said you wanted something within wordpress so...Apr 01 21:41
joseyes, that would be more complicated but the idea was to relieve server loadApr 01 21:41
josebut, if you are willing to do small pieces for a long timeApr 01 21:41
joseyou should be fineApr 01 21:41
joseand maybe not even "long" time, btwApr 01 21:42
schestowitzMicrosoft Kills Off Two Products Bill Gates Thought Would Be Enhanced By The Internet < http://techdirt.com/articles/200... >Apr 01 21:42
schestowitzjose: nothing to do with WordPress/DBApr 01 21:42
schestowitzJust any textApr 01 21:42
schestowitzMaybe SourceForge has somethingApr 01 21:42
joseyeah, but to get "text" you have to get it out of mysql firstApr 01 21:43
schestowitzI actually thought about this enhancement while at the gym because we don't have enough external links, so it looks poorerApr 01 21:43
_Hicham_schestowitz is a leader provider in Internet Solutions, including Web Hosting, Domain Names selling and so on, for all information, visit : http://www.schestowitz.corpApr 01 21:43
*Carl_Rover2k12 has quit ()Apr 01 21:43
joseor write a mysql script program if that exists.Apr 01 21:43
schestowitznew.corpApr 01 21:43
schestowitzBest news channel: news.corpApr 01 21:43
schestowitzInsanely logicalApr 01 21:43
schestowitzInsane logicApr 01 21:43
josei hadn't even thought about it, but yes, you are focused on the main posting that you do.. not reader comments.. anyway, same thing.. except that would take less time to do.Apr 01 21:44
schestowitz10,000 In-Flight Cell Calls In Europe: No Crashes, No Terrorist Attacks < http://techdirt.com/articles/200... >Apr 01 21:44
schestowitzjose: can't mess with people's commentsApr 01 21:45
schestowitzNot even linksApr 01 21:45
schestowitzThat's what happened in Sutor's blogApr 01 21:45
schestowitzIt's like it intervenes with what you postApr 01 21:45
josewell, you already do auto linking, but you are correct yesApr 01 21:45
schestowitzA link on the word "mono" can mistakenly take you to a page about MononucleosisApr 01 21:46
josei was focused on the solution approach not the "details"Apr 01 21:46
jose:-)Apr 01 21:46
joseno, if that happensApr 01 21:46
josethat would be a problem whether it is your posting or a reader commentApr 01 21:46
schestowitzOr you write "Jave will beat Mono"Apr 01 21:46
joseso that is a different issuesApr 01 21:46
joseissueApr 01 21:46
schestowitzAnd then it links to a page about beating the monkeyApr 01 21:46
_Hicham_Java will beat MonoApr 01 21:47
joseanyway, you are correct that we are only focused on your comments.. my badApr 01 21:47
_Hicham_and schestowitz will beat BallmerApr 01 21:47
schestowitz_Hicham_: it was a joke pretty muchApr 01 21:47
schestowitzJava spanks monkeyApr 01 21:47
_Hicham_interesting combatApr 01 21:47
schestowitzBallmer is old and crazyApr 01 21:47
_Hicham_Schestowitz VS BallmerApr 01 21:47
schestowitzBut he plays dirtyApr 01 21:47
_Hicham_that would drain a lot of moneyApr 01 21:47
schestowitzI'd beat him easilyApr 01 21:48
_Hicham_I know RoyApr 01 21:48
_Hicham_u r a real warriorApr 01 21:48


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