IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: May 6th, 2009 – Part 1

Posted in IRC Logs at 9:22 pm by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


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DavidGerard mini microsoft is (obviously) interesting today May 06 00:00
oiaohm It more interesting to see how many staff they can afford to lose. May 06 00:06
oiaohm That would be a nasty line to take the ODF failure of MS Office.   “Is the Failure of ODF support a sign that MS lacks the staff to support there software any more?” May 06 00:08
oiaohm That would be out of the pure rules of FUD.    Create Fear Uncerity so putting the company who did it at risk. May 06 00:10
*seller_liar (i=c95f3026@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-44275bc387e18747) has joined #boycottnovell May 06 00:11
seller_liar what the extra moonlight clause measns? May 06 00:12
oiaohm Link to clause please seller_liar May 06 00:14
seller_liar wait May 06 00:15
seller_liar In addition to the GNU LGPL, this code is available for relicensing for non-LGPL use, contact Novell for details (mono@novell.com).  We consider non-LGPL use instances where you use this on an embedded system where the end user is not able to upgrade the Moonlight installation or distribution that is part of your product (Section 6 and 7), you would have to May 06 00:15
Balrog_ wait a minute May 06 00:16
Balrog_ they’re trying to use LGPL 3 anti-tivoization without LGPL 3 patent clause May 06 00:16
seller_liar ok May 06 00:16
Balrog_ :( May 06 00:16
oiaohm Hang on that is breach of GPL. May 06 00:16
oiaohm You are only allowed to use Section 6 and 7 in GPL to allow more than the licence would other wise let.   You cannot use Section 6 or 7 for limiting. May 06 00:17
seller_liar but why not use lgpl v3 instead? May 06 00:17
Balrog_ because of patent clauses May 06 00:17
oiaohm No LGPL licence is clear on that fact. May 06 00:17
seller_liar lgplv2 , not lgplv2.1 or lgplv3 protects microsoft-novell deal May 06 00:18
oiaohm If you want to limit you have to create a new licence like AGPL. May 06 00:18
oiaohm seller_liar that needs to go to the free software foundation. May 06 00:19
oiaohm Novell needs sueing. May 06 00:20
seller_liar Ok, thanks I understand May 06 00:20
seller_liar novell does not use lgplv3 because of deal May 06 00:20
oiaohm lgplv3 does not apply to any deal before its create. May 06 00:20
oiaohm So novell could use it.  But they would not be able to make a future deal the same. May 06 00:21
seller_liar ok May 06 00:21
seller_liar But I was thinking May 06 00:21
Balrog_ wait a minute May 06 00:22
oiaohm seller_liar: will you email that off to the freesoftware foundation or do I. May 06 00:22
seller_liar Projects like dotgnu needs more attention May 06 00:22
Balrog_ they’re claiming that LGPL they’re using forbids tivoization May 06 00:22
Balrog_ “We only require licensing for uses of Mono and Moonlight on embedded systems, or systems where you are unable to fulfill the obligations of the GNU LGPL.” May 06 00:22
oiaohm Tivo uses LGPL. May 06 00:22
seller_liar There’s no need for this .I have understood May 06 00:22
oiaohm LGPL does not allow that split Balrog_ May 06 00:23
oiaohm seller_liar: its illegal. May 06 00:23
seller_liar But please, if you want ,send a email for sflc for more explanation about moondarkness May 06 00:23
Balrog_ or RMS himself? May 06 00:23
oiaohm Page link that its on seller_liar May 06 00:23
seller_liar maybe, But Sflc knows is better May 06 00:24
Balrog_ ok May 06 00:24
oiaohm Part of my job I do embed stuff. May 06 00:24
seller_liar oiaohm: download moonlight and see the license May 06 00:24
oiaohm Ok now that is also a break of some countries laws where you must be able to see the licence before downloading. May 06 00:24
oiaohm Or the licence is rendered void. May 06 00:25
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@wana-124-245-12-196.wanamaroc.com) has joined #boycottnovell May 06 00:25
oiaohm This is just getting worse. May 06 00:25
seller_liar yes ,Because I have not found the license before download May 06 00:25
_Hicham_ what is getting worse? May 06 00:25
oiaohm Mono licencing it appears to completely screwed up. May 06 00:25
Balrog_ http://anonsvn.mono-project.com/vi… May 06 00:26
_Hicham_ is this just in? May 06 00:26
Balrog_ Also they’re combining LGPL and MS-PL May 06 00:26
Balrog_ not sure if that’s ok … May 06 00:26
_Hicham_ MS-PL with GPL? what a shame May 06 00:26
Balrog_ see that license May 06 00:27
Balrog_ we’re talking about the ‘anti-tivoization provision in Moonlight’s license May 06 00:29
Balrog_ oiaohm and seller_liar: still arond? May 06 00:29
Balrog_ around * May 06 00:29
seller_liar yes May 06 00:29
Balrog_ ok May 06 00:30
Balrog_ any ideas on what to do? May 06 00:30
Balrog_ oh another thing May 06 00:30
seller_liar send a email to sflc about moonlight May 06 00:31
seller_liar http://www.microsoft.com/interop/m… May 06 00:31
Balrog_ I was told that the GNU licenses page used to say that Ms-PL was gpl compatible, but they changed it May 06 00:31
Balrog_ anyone has past pages or that kind of info? wayback machine doesn’t have it May 06 00:31
Balrog_ Also MS discriminates against GPL3 in their covenant May 06 00:32
Balrog_ << “Moonlight Implementation” means only those specific portions of Moonlight 1.0 or Moonlight 1.1 that run only as a plug-in to a browser on a Personal Computer and are not licensed under GPLv3 or a Similar License. >> May 06 00:32
oiaohm Ms-PL is only compatible under particular conditions. May 06 00:35
oiaohm That case it would be. May 06 00:35
seller_liar see groklaw May 06 00:35
Balrog_ which are?? May 06 00:35
Balrog_ URL? May 06 00:35
seller_liar groklaw have a discussion of sflc about microsoft-novell covenant May 06 00:35
oiaohm You cannot link MS-PL and GPL into the same program source. May 06 00:35
oiaohm That case they are independant parts so independant works. May 06 00:35
seller_liar http://www.groklaw.net/articlebas… May 06 00:36
oiaohm So compadible. May 06 00:36
oiaohm Adding conditions illegally to LGPL cannot be tollerated. May 06 00:36
oiaohm LGPL only can demard that you release your source code. May 06 00:36
Balrog_ or claiming that LGPL2 forbids tivoization May 06 00:36
oiaohm That is adding a illegal condition Balrog_ May 06 00:37
Balrog_ well it’s worded as a claim, not a condition May 06 00:37
oiaohm Law does not split on that. May 06 00:37
Balrog_ ok. May 06 00:37
oiaohm To the person reading is it a condition you would have every right to think you would have to follow.  If yes its a condition. May 06 00:38
oiaohm claim is not a magical word under law. May 06 00:38
oiaohm I really suspect the MS-PL is the bit that truly forbids embeding. May 06 00:39
Balrog_ this guy <http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/ion/new…> really messed with LGPL. That’s why no one uses his software; it’s basically unredistributable May 06 00:40
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LastGuyonEarth Good afternoon. May 06 00:40
Balrog_ oiaohm: but you can build Mono / Moonlight without Ms-PL stuff ….? May 06 00:40
oiaohm They also counld have put it on the MIT licence section. May 06 00:41
oiaohm Nothing illegal adding a condition there. May 06 00:41
Balrog_ yes. May 06 00:41
LastGuyonEarth I personally dislike how the MIT license gets used anymore, though. May 06 00:41
LastGuyonEarth Case in point, the Cedega developers caused a lot of problems by forking off the Wine code a few years back. May 06 00:42
LastGuyonEarth Although come to think of it, I don’t really use much of either anymore. May 06 00:42
LastGuyonEarth But I digress. May 06 00:42
LastGuyonEarth What I’d really like to see is a Free alternative to Flash and Silverlight that uses Javascript and OGG. May 06 00:43
LastGuyonEarth Maybe someday. May 06 00:43
Balrog_ why not <video> tags? May 06 00:43
oiaohm Balrog_ I agree on that distribution one. May 06 00:43
oiaohm I have been against that for a long time. May 06 00:43
Balrog_ oiaohm: which exact one … IonWM? May 06 00:43
LastGuyonEarth Balrog_: I personally like the <video> tags in the new firefox, but I’d just like to see a framework as a whole be developed as an alternative. May 06 00:44
oiaohm There are thousands of packages effected by it. May 06 00:44
LastGuyonEarth It’d be especially useful for animators that want to switch from Flash. May 06 00:44
Balrog_ yes, and I think such tampering with LGPL is probably illegal May 06 00:44
oiaohm Including wine that I do support for Balrog_ May 06 00:44
oiaohm Some places of the GPL world we need court cases to sort it out. May 06 00:44
LastGuyonEarth I have to admit, though, a lot of GNU/Linux apps have become quite refined, I haven’t really used Wine-apps for a while now. May 06 00:45
LastGuyonEarth That said, one person can not represent a demographic. May 06 00:45
oiaohm That the way I recommend it. May 06 00:45
oiaohm If native tools can do it use them. May 06 00:45
oiaohm Wine is more of a stop gap. May 06 00:45
LastGuyonEarth Especially if they’re GPL-compatible. May 06 00:45
LastGuyonEarth Yeah. May 06 00:45
oiaohm Wine is not the most cpu friendly thing either. May 06 00:45
LastGuyonEarth What I think Free Software really needs are simpler ways to develop games. May 06 00:45
oiaohm that will be blender soon LastGuyonEarth May 06 00:46
LastGuyonEarth The gaming community itself has so much untapped potential for Free Software/Free Culture May 06 00:46
LastGuyonEarth Ah, nice. May 06 00:46
oiaohm Blender is basically getting flow chart coding. May 06 00:46
LastGuyonEarth So long as it runs well, I can’t complain. May 06 00:46
oiaohm And its game engine updated to run extreamly well. May 06 00:47
Balrog_ we’re stuck with this at school: http://www.motionanalysis.com/html… May 06 00:47
Balrog_ connects to IR cameras for 3d motion tracking May 06 00:47
Balrog_ it’s expensive proprietary software, and I don’t know of any foss alternative May 06 00:47
LastGuyonEarth Ah yep. May 06 00:47
LastGuyonEarth Hmm. May 06 00:47
LastGuyonEarth Well, I think an important thing to keep in mind is that the basic apps ought to be covered with Free Software alternatives first. May 06 00:48
oiaohm http://blenderartists.org/forum…  << look at stress test of new engine LastGuyonEarth May 06 00:48
LastGuyonEarth Don’t get me wrong, they’re definitely getting there. May 06 00:48
LastGuyonEarth But some apps/patents/licensing schemes are still largely problematic. May 06 00:49
Balrog_ they also rely on Virtools May 06 00:49
LastGuyonEarth Also, packaging is still difficult for a third-party app vendor. May 06 00:49
Balrog_ which costs a few thousand May 06 00:49
LastGuyonEarth =( May 06 00:49
LastGuyonEarth Maybe someday. One can only hope. May 06 00:49
LastGuyonEarth oiaohm hopefully the new game editor in Blender will be highly extendible. May 06 00:50
DavidGerard Balrog_: the other reason no-one uses tuomov’s software is because he’s INSANE. he recently got kicked off the x.org lists for batshitness May 06 00:50
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DavidGerard thoguh before he did I splorfed at ajax responding to one of his rants “Also, time is actually cubical in nature.” May 06 00:50
LastGuyonEarth lol May 06 00:51
LastGuyonEarth Time is an abstract concept, in my opinion. May 06 00:51
DavidGerard i’m trying to think of the ultimate free unix distro May 06 00:51
LastGuyonEarth OpenBSD May 06 00:51
DavidGerard we could get joerg schilling, tuomo v, hans reiser … May 06 00:51
LastGuyonEarth No binary blobs in it whatsoever. May 06 00:51
LastGuyonEarth That said, I hear it’s difficult to install. May 06 00:51
DavidGerard they’d never be able to agree on the license, but that’s ok May 06 00:52
oiaohm LastGuyonEarth: you have python engine on top of the flow chart coding so yep highly extendible. May 06 00:52
LastGuyonEarth I personally am hoping to switch to either BLAG or gNewSense sometime soon May 06 00:52
Balrog_ Jorg Schilling put together an unredistriutable app known as cdrecord May 06 00:52
LastGuyonEarth oiaohm: awesome! May 06 00:52
DavidGerard LastGuyonEarth: nah, it’s easy. it’s command-line and does expect you to read the manuals. May 06 00:52
DavidGerard that said, the manuals are EXCELLENT. really really good. May 06 00:52
Balrog_ DavidGerard: easier than Gentoo? ;) May 06 00:52
LastGuyonEarth DavidGerard: Good to know! May 06 00:52
DavidGerard when i was learning solaris admin i’d read the openbsd man page to understand the command and the solaris man page for the switches on solaris May 06 00:52
LastGuyonEarth Ah, Solaris. May 06 00:53
LastGuyonEarth I quite enjoyed OpenSolaris for what it was. May 06 00:53
Balrog_ (i,e, cdrtools) May 06 00:53
DavidGerard key things about openbsd: 1. it does things properly. 2. it’s very fussy. May 06 00:53
DavidGerard doesn’t work in some virtual machines because it’s like a stress test for emulators. May 06 00:53
seller_liar very hard to use May 06 00:53
LastGuyonEarth Interesting. May 06 00:53
DavidGerard some software just won’t start on it. May 06 00:53
seller_liar unfriendly people May 06 00:53
seller_liar arrogant people May 06 00:53
DavidGerard they’re … uncompromising. May 06 00:53
oiaohm http://www.hitl.washington.edu/…  Ok with 3d human tracking how stupid do you want to look LastGuyonEarth May 06 00:53
seller_liar is not user friendly May 06 00:54
DavidGerard solaris is industrial machinery. May 06 00:54
DavidGerard plus point: it’s predictable. May 06 00:54
Balrog_ … seller_liar: who do you mean? Solaris Gentoo or OpenBSD? May 06 00:54
seller_liar does not have gui installer , a little few distrosa May 06 00:54
LastGuyonEarth oiaohm: I beg your pardon? May 06 00:54
seller_liar openbsd May 06 00:54
Balrog_ ok May 06 00:54
seller_liar Why to worry about security ? May 06 00:54
DavidGerard that said, if you want a seriously secure external facing machine, openbsd is it. May 06 00:54
LastGuyonEarth LOL! May 06 00:54
oiaohm Opps wrong person May 06 00:55
seller_liar openbsd people focuses in stupid things like security May 06 00:55
DavidGerard and it’s a bsd unix, it’s really not that hard to use, and bsd is nice to administer May 06 00:55
oiaohm It was Balrog_ who asked about 3d user tracking. May 06 00:55
LastGuyonEarth oiaohm: It’s fine! No worries! May 06 00:55
Balrog_ yes, it was May 06 00:55
Balrog_ looks interesting May 06 00:55
DavidGerard because it’s an evil internet May 06 00:55
LastGuyonEarth DavidGerard: It’s not all evil. May 06 00:55
LastGuyonEarth There’s identi.ca at least. May 06 00:55
Balrog_ though they say “ARToolKit is made available freely for non-commercial use under the GNU General Public License. ” which is contradictory May 06 00:55
oiaohm It can do it single cammera as well Balrog_ May 06 00:55
seller_liar DavidGerard: Evil is cause by humans May 06 00:55
DavidGerard theo de raadt is also fiercely dedicated to software freedom, even if he disagrees with rms almost by reflex May 06 00:55
Balrog_ should I fire off an email? May 06 00:56
oiaohm Not really. May 06 00:56
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: Ah, but evil itself is defined by society, whom I disregard. May 06 00:56
seller_liar DavidGerard: Of course , human systems too May 06 00:56
oiaohm If you want to use it closed soruce you can pay a licence Balrog_ May 06 00:56
DavidGerard LastGuyonEarth: that works as long as society disregards you May 06 00:56
seller_liar DavidGerard: Evil is cause by human and human systems May 06 00:56
Balrog_ yes, but ‘non-commercial’ … May 06 00:56
LastGuyonEarth DavidGerard: Works for me then. May 06 00:56
oiaohm Its another QT style licence Balrog_ May 06 00:56
Balrog_ ok May 06 00:56
seller_liar If we stop to produce more and more system , evil disappear May 06 00:56
oiaohm They don’t class open source as commerial. May 06 00:56
seller_liar of  course, not entirely May 06 00:57
DavidGerard 20 people want to save Vista! May 06 00:57
seller_liar because the universe is a system May 06 00:57
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: I think “evil” is present regardless of a system or not. May 06 00:57
DavidGerard that’s actually quite a worryingly large number May 06 00:57
DavidGerard http://www.facebook.com/group… May 06 00:57
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: People will always disagree and have struggles. May 06 00:57
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: no May 06 00:57
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: If we stop to produce systems , the evil disappear May 06 00:57
oiaohm Looking completely stupid with large processing power you can basically do human 3d tracking  with 1 cam. May 06 00:57
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: But it’s not impossible to destroy all systems May 06 00:58
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: Again, I don’t see it that way. People will still kill another regardless of a system or not. May 06 00:58
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: But it’s not possible to destroy all systems May 06 00:58
oiaohm So far no one has designed a tracking suit that looks good. May 06 00:58
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth:For example , the human body is a system May 06 00:58
LastGuyonEarth oiaohm: Ah well, as long as they work. May 06 00:58
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: I define a body as an organism rather than just a system. May 06 00:59
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth:The language is a system May 06 00:59
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: Political systems I usually disagree with. May 06 00:59
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: Language is a structure in my opinion./ May 06 00:59
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: Of course, but is a system May 06 00:59
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: You don’t go to prison for defying language, body functions, or physics necessarily. May 06 00:59
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: But then, definitions and language have always been tricky. May 06 01:00
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: Evil is generated because of lack of control of systems May 06 01:00
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: Human can not control all systems May 06 01:00
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: I believe Evil is generated because the system is flawed in the first place. May 06 01:00
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: Or evil is simply labeled as such because it is misunderstood. May 06 01:01
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: Yes law is a system . May 06 01:01
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: But ,I consider all things a system May 06 01:01
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: Sometimes a very bad system. May 06 01:01
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: Fair enough. May 06 01:01
seller_liar atoms ,cells, language, culture May 06 01:01
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: What about abstract concepts, such as quantum physics? May 06 01:01
seller_liar The big problem is in this era , the human creates a lot of systems May 06 01:02
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: Technically, they are a system, but they can only be thought of and calculated. May 06 01:02
seller_liar knowledge is a system May 06 01:02
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: I can’t argue with that one. But knowledge is the greatest form of a system I’ve ever come across. May 06 01:02
seller_liar Yes, but the big problem is not knowledge , May 06 01:02
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: For knowledge redefines everything around you. May 06 01:03
seller_liar the real problem is the excess of knowledge and systems May 06 01:03
seller_liar All thing created in this world generates reactions May 06 01:03
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: I can understand systems, but I fail to see how an excess of knowledge hurt anyone. May 06 01:03
seller_liar More knowledge = more power May 06 01:03
DavidGerard LastGuyonEarth: too much knowledge and you end up a wikipedia administrator May 06 01:04
LastGuyonEarth DavidGerard: LOL! May 06 01:04
DavidGerard and trust me, your productive life is OVER May 06 01:04
LastGuyonEarth I feel bad about what Wikipedia is becoming… May 06 01:04
seller_liar If you have a lot of knowledge you have more power May 06 01:04
LastGuyonEarth So censored anymore. May 06 01:04
seller_liar “Power corrupts” May 06 01:04
seller_liar because you are a human and cannot control all knowldge you have May 06 01:04
seller_liar And this generates evil May 06 01:05
LastGuyonEarth But I myself do not believe in Evil. May 06 01:05
LastGuyonEarth I only believe in misunderstanding. May 06 01:05
seller_liar every power of this world generates reactions May 06 01:05
seller_liar the difference is May 06 01:05
seller_liar some reaction the human can control , others do not May 06 01:06
seller_liar the others are called “evil” May 06 01:06
seller_liar for example May 06 01:06
seller_liar Human creates cars May 06 01:06
seller_liar It’s very powerful but May 06 01:06
seller_liar the evil is pollution ,greed , money , and car asccidents May 06 01:07
LastGuyonEarth No. May 06 01:07
seller_liar every power generates reaction May 06 01:07
LastGuyonEarth The only evil I believe in is Hate. May 06 01:07
LastGuyonEarth For Hate motivates all the terrible reactions of the world. May 06 01:07
LastGuyonEarth Sounds a bit hippie-ish May 06 01:07
LastGuyonEarth But that’s how I see things. May 06 01:07
seller_liar Hate is lack of control too May 06 01:07
LastGuyonEarth Is it? May 06 01:07
seller_liar an example May 06 01:07
LastGuyonEarth Or is Hate taking control in a negative form? May 06 01:07
seller_liar A human born May 06 01:07
seller_liar The human borns with hate or hate is created in human mind May 06 01:08
seller_liar Human does not born with hate May 06 01:08
LastGuyonEarth Are they? May 06 01:08
seller_liar Hate is generated  by other humans May 06 01:08
LastGuyonEarth Again, is it? May 06 01:08
LastGuyonEarth Are aggression and hate learned, or parially inherent? May 06 01:09
seller_liar Family creates hate , hate creates hate, society creates hate May 06 01:09
seller_liar Agression =! hate May 06 01:09
LastGuyonEarth Misunderstanding creates hate. May 06 01:09
LastGuyonEarth Aggression begets hate, and vice versa. May 06 01:09
seller_liar Agression is a power to defend human against obstacles May 06 01:09
seller_liar But human does not control agression too much , May 06 01:09
LastGuyonEarth I lump it with violence. May 06 01:09
seller_liar the reaction is violence May 06 01:09
seller_liar you see May 06 01:09
seller_liar Power:Agression May 06 01:10
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seller_liar Reaction not controleed by human: Violence May 06 01:10
seller_liar Reaction controlled by human: Self defence May 06 01:10
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: But what about racism, homophobes, and the like? May 06 01:10
LastGuyonEarth That’s partially created out of fear, which is a lack of power. May 06 01:10
LastGuyonEarth And yet, it creates Hate, too. May 06 01:10
seller_liar seller_liar: Agreesion + poor society system May 06 01:10
seller_liar reaction=Racism May 06 01:10
seller_liar Everything is power and system May 06 01:11
seller_liar human is a system May 06 01:11
seller_liar the universe is a system May 06 01:11
oiaohm I believe in Evil and good and a large shade of grey in middle. May 06 01:11
seller_liar Pówer generates reactions May 06 01:11
LastGuyonEarth But so does a lack of power. May 06 01:11
seller_liar Reaction are controlled by humans or not May 06 01:12
seller_liar Reactions not  controlled by humans:evil May 06 01:12
LastGuyonEarth Depends on the situation. May 06 01:12
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oiaohm Evil in my define is simple an action performed with the pure idea of doing harm without any valid motive. May 06 01:13
oiaohm Solider does not step out on the battle field to kill they step out to protect. May 06 01:13
oiaohm So not Evil. May 06 01:13
oiaohm Mass murder killing for the sport of it that is Evil. May 06 01:14
LastGuyonEarth I disagree. May 06 01:14
seller_liar Why Humans harm “without” motive May 06 01:14
LastGuyonEarth If everyone is going to die anyway, is taking a life necessarily evil? May 06 01:14
oiaohm Die is natural.   You dna will stop working at some point and you will die. May 06 01:14
seller_liar Bad humans are a consequence of poor systems May 06 01:15
LastGuyonEarth Define “Bad Human” May 06 01:15
seller_liar oiaohm: This is not evil , natural death  is a normal condition of human May 06 01:15
seller_liar “People wants to harm people” May 06 01:15
oiaohm It goes aganist nature to harm your own kind without motive. May 06 01:16
LastGuyonEarth I guess I’m the odd one out, I have no qualms about someone going on a killing spree. May 06 01:16
seller_liar All things in this world have a reason May 06 01:16
LastGuyonEarth What I detest rather is forcing people to live in pain. May 06 01:16
seller_liar oiaohm: But this is not true May 06 01:16
seller_liar oiaohm: All things of world have a reason May 06 01:16
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: Nothing HAS to have a reason per se. May 06 01:17
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LastGuyonEarth Things can just happen randomly for no particular reason. May 06 01:17
LastGuyonEarth I personally am a fan of that. May 06 01:17
seller_liar oiaohm: Every things have a reason May 06 01:17
oiaohm There is no reason for people to live in pain. May 06 01:17
LastGuyonEarth Right. May 06 01:17
seller_liar oiaohm:Wrong May 06 01:18
oiaohm That is what medical induced comas are for. May 06 01:18
Balrog_ seller_liar: things happen based on a probalistic nature May 06 01:18
Balrog_ at least in part May 06 01:18
seller_liar balrog: all probalistic nature is predictable May 06 01:18
Balrog_ seller_liar: you can predict that there’s a 15% chance that something will happen May 06 01:18
Balrog_ but that’s not predictability May 06 01:18
LastGuyonEarth Balrog_: LOL! May 06 01:18
Balrog_ there’s a 85% chance it won’t happen May 06 01:19
seller_liar oiaohm: I’m not a god ,but this is predictable May 06 01:19
Balrog_ nature is like this … once you get into quantum mechanics, it’s commonplace May 06 01:19
*Balrog_ is a physics student ;) May 06 01:19
oiaohm Humans themselves are not random. May 06 01:19
LastGuyonEarth I love quantum mechanics. May 06 01:19
seller_liar oiaohm: All things have a destiny May 06 01:19
_Hicham_ there is no probalistic thing May 06 01:19
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: As I heard in a movie: “There is a fate, it’s what you create.” May 06 01:19
_Hicham_ Einstein died trying to prove it May 06 01:20
LastGuyonEarth Einstein cribbed a lot of theoretical work. May 06 01:20
seller_liar seller_liar: All things have destiny May 06 01:20
Balrog_ _Hicham_: heard of quantum entanglement? May 06 01:20
LastGuyonEarth I don’t personally respect Einstein entirely. May 06 01:20
seller_liar but only god knows May 06 01:20
LastGuyonEarth I’m an Atheist. ;) May 06 01:20
Balrog_ and the EPR paradox? May 06 01:20
LastGuyonEarth Well no, actually I’m Pastafarian. May 06 01:20
seller_liar But I will talk about evi May 06 01:20
_Hicham_ Einstein wasn’t convinced by the probalistic aspect of quantum physics May 06 01:20
seller_liar Evil is generated by systems May 06 01:21
oiaohm I love the old test I did where I had 2 object on a table and a physicollagly lecturer.  An said throw 1 of them away.  Only one problem I had a list of actions the person would attempt to do. May 06 01:21
seller_liar We cannot live without systems May 06 01:21
_Hicham_ but the thing is that no one could prove it May 06 01:21
oiaohm Humans are not random. May 06 01:21
_Hicham_ probability is still a mysterious notion May 06 01:21
oiaohm We only think we are. May 06 01:21
LastGuyonEarth oiaohm: Sure they are! WAFFLES POTATOES! May 06 01:21
_Hicham_ nothing is random May 06 01:21
seller_liar Because we are a system ,atoms are system ,materia is a system May 06 01:21
_Hicham_ everything is well computed May 06 01:22
seller_liar all technology is a system May 06 01:22
_Hicham_ nature can’t be random May 06 01:22
LastGuyonEarth Why not? May 06 01:22
LastGuyonEarth There’s nothing wrong with being random. May 06 01:22
_Hicham_ there was ( and still ) a big debate about that in the US May 06 01:22
oiaohm LastGuyonEarth: even that statement sure they are is not random. May 06 01:22
_Hicham_ intelligent design vs darwinism May 06 01:22
LastGuyonEarth oiaohm: I know, it was a joke. May 06 01:22
LastGuyonEarth Darwinism FTW. May 06 01:22
oiaohm If I knew enough your back ground history the answer as predictable LastGuyonEarth May 06 01:22
Balrog_ random and probalistic are two different things May 06 01:22
Balrog_ the latter is predictable May 06 01:23
seller_liar Darwinism is used by capitalists .I don tl ike it May 06 01:23
oiaohm Humans are part DNA and Part there experisneces and part there brain malfuctions. May 06 01:23
LastGuyonEarth Sorry, what? May 06 01:23
seller_liar Darwinism is used by capitalists .I don t  like it May 06 01:23
LastGuyonEarth ID is used by capitalists, as they have the largest percentile of theists. May 06 01:23
oiaohm Not really random. May 06 01:23
_Hicham_ if you have enough data, you can predict anything May 06 01:23
seller_liar Evolution  is a quest of luck and bad luck May 06 01:24
LastGuyonEarth It’s the best we’ve got. May 06 01:24
oiaohm Evil actions from people are normally made. May 06 01:24
LastGuyonEarth Evil is only defined by other people. May 06 01:24
seller_liar oiaohm: Because human body is a system , human cannot control human entirely May 06 01:24
LastGuyonEarth If I shot a man who tried to kill one of my children, am I evil? May 06 01:24
LastGuyonEarth I technically just killed somebody, but to save another. May 06 01:24
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: Yes May 06 01:25
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: Ah, I see. You’re a Moral Absolutist May 06 01:25
seller_liar Because you not stoped that human before May 06 01:25
LastGuyonEarth Much like Rorschach from Watchmen. May 06 01:25
*ushimitsudoki has quit (Success) May 06 01:25
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: No May 06 01:25
_Hicham_ LastGuyonEarch : you should avoid killing May 06 01:25
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: For example May 06 01:25
LastGuyonEarth Says who? May 06 01:25
oiaohm What if you were shooting at the wrong guy LastGuyonEarth May 06 01:25
oiaohm Like his twin. May 06 01:26
LastGuyonEarth I personally will kill if I want to, that’s part of human nature. It’s been that way for thousands of years. May 06 01:26
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: Why this human have killed your children May 06 01:26
oiaohm Remember I said humans are part dna and part how they are raised. May 06 01:26
LastGuyonEarth Yes. May 06 01:26
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: Why this human have killed your children? May 06 01:26
_Hicham_ you can’t kill if u want to May 06 01:26
LastGuyonEarth Why does it matter, the point is that they’re theoretically dead. May 06 01:26
oiaohm Base human nature from DNA normally does not include kill. May 06 01:27
seller_liar Because he is crazy, right? May 06 01:27
LastGuyonEarth _Hicham_: Sure I can. May 06 01:27
seller_liar But May 06 01:27
seller_liar Why this man is crazy? May 06 01:27
LastGuyonEarth Because you labeled him as “Evil”? May 06 01:27
_Hicham_ LastGuyonEarth : you don’t control yourself entirely May 06 01:27
seller_liar Why you were not able to prevent it was crazy May 06 01:28
_Hicham_ to kill, certain conditions must be fulfilled May 06 01:28
LastGuyonEarth _Hicham_: As defined by you. Perhaps I have more control. May 06 01:28
oiaohm There are rare people who are basically born with the nature to kill.   Most of them end up as mass murders. May 06 01:28
seller_liar Before building a family, you must live in a good system May 06 01:28
seller_liar You did not ensure that the world has not insane May 06 01:28
seller_liar You did not ensure that the world has not crazy people May 06 01:29
seller_liar Hence May 06 01:29
oiaohm To kill you need lack of empthy with what you are killing. May 06 01:29
_Hicham_ and to be healthy May 06 01:29
seller_liar You should spend time improving the world before building a family May 06 01:29
seller_liar Helping the world is … May 06 01:29
seller_liar use free software May 06 01:30
oiaohm Most people cannot kill cattle and the like let alone humans. May 06 01:30
_Hicham_ LastGuyonEarth : can u kill if u lose ur eyes? May 06 01:30
seller_liar recycle lix May 06 01:30
LastGuyonEarth _Hicham_: Sure! May 06 01:30
seller_liar recycle waste May 06 01:30
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: It? May 06 01:30
seller_liar Did you understand? May 06 01:30
oiaohm Normal Humans must justify there actions so they can Kill. May 06 01:30
LastGuyonEarth They don’t have to. May 06 01:31
oiaohm Its a must. May 06 01:31
LastGuyonEarth Normal is a definition of an accepted norm by society. May 06 01:31
oiaohm If your brain is working right. May 06 01:31
LastGuyonEarth Which is largely Capitalist and overly consumerist. May 06 01:31
oiaohm Its a requirement. May 06 01:31
LastGuyonEarth No, it’s a precondition. May 06 01:31
_Hicham_ LastGuyonEarth : where do u live?* May 06 01:31
seller_liar LastGuyonEarth: Men dee crazy because there are lack of control in the system May 06 01:31
oiaohm Over time you can desentise and shorting the process. May 06 01:31
LastGuyonEarth _Hicham_: United States. I hate it here. May 06 01:31
oiaohm Basically its a natural built in lock. May 06 01:32
seller_liar If you change the system, will not have more men crazy May 06 01:32
LastGuyonEarth Define crazy. May 06 01:32
oiaohm We just have the means of unlocking it. May 06 01:32
oiaohm Basically more you kill the simpler it becomes. May 06 01:32
seller_liar Brain abnormality May 06 01:32
LastGuyonEarth Define abnormality now. May 06 01:32
seller_liar You can prevent this happening May 06 01:33
LastGuyonEarth Something that doesn’t fit in with the norm. May 06 01:33
seller_liar Investing more time on ethics May 06 01:33
LastGuyonEarth While I’m personally all for ethics. May 06 01:33
seller_liar If the world is more health and education May 06 01:33
oiaohm Sorry people who never had empthy there is a section of brain that is never active LastGuyonEarth May 06 01:33
seller_liar men not born or grow mad May 06 01:33
seller_liar Finally May 06 01:33
seller_liar sorry May 06 01:33
oiaohm So yes its a abnormality. May 06 01:33
seller_liar After all May 06 01:34
oiaohm You can either be born a killer. May 06 01:34
seller_liar all evil is generated because systems May 06 01:34
oiaohm Or develop into one. May 06 01:34
seller_liar You can prevent born killers May 06 01:34
seller_liar You can prevent murderers grow May 06 01:34
LastGuyonEarth How? May 06 01:34
LastGuyonEarth Abort them? May 06 01:34
LastGuyonEarth That’s no better than killing someone. May 06 01:35
seller_liar No May 06 01:35
seller_liar Investing in health May 06 01:35
_Hicham_ by educating peopole May 06 01:35
seller_liar Yes May 06 01:35
LastGuyonEarth Regardless of that, there will always be killers. May 06 01:35
oiaohm If you know what they are you can also be aware of there state. May 06 01:35
LastGuyonEarth That’s my stance of beliefs. May 06 01:35
oiaohm So no giving them weapons. May 06 01:35
LastGuyonEarth They’d still kill. May 06 01:35
LastGuyonEarth Fashion their own weapons. May 06 01:35
oiaohm Not exactly. May 06 01:36
LastGuyonEarth To rob someone of a right to have a weapon simply is a restriction upon the human condition. May 06 01:36
oiaohm They are not born with the skill todo that. May 06 01:36
seller_liar So, before you build a family invests in ethics May 06 01:36
seller_liar Ethics is a must! May 06 01:36
oiaohm To be correct there are some paper pushing jobs born killers are good at. May 06 01:36
seller_liar A gun is a power May 06 01:36
LastGuyonEarth A great power. May 06 01:36
seller_liar All power has reactions May 06 01:36
oiaohm Like sorting out what staff should be fired. May 06 01:36
LastGuyonEarth seller_liar: You’re a repetitive one, aren’t you? May 06 01:37
seller_liar The gun creates a reaction May 06 01:37
seller_liar No May 06 01:37
seller_liar The man has no control over anger May 06 01:37
LastGuyonEarth Sure he does. May 06 01:37
oiaohm Killer nature is only a problem if they get given the skills to use it to do harm. May 06 01:37
seller_liar And USA has the power May 06 01:37
LastGuyonEarth He can choose to be angry or blow it off. May 06 01:37
LastGuyonEarth And not care about it. May 06 01:37
oiaohm If they are given the right skills they are useful. May 06 01:37
seller_liar Few men have control over anger May 06 01:38
LastGuyonEarth Prove it. May 06 01:38
oiaohm That depends on culture seller_liar May 06 01:38
LastGuyonEarth Give me hard, empirical evidence that humans cannot control anger. May 06 01:38
seller_liar The company does not guarantee that all men have control over their bodies May 06 01:38
seller_liar Sorry May 06 01:38
oiaohm buddist cultures have the lowest ammount of anger probems. May 06 01:38
seller_liar The society does not guarantee that all men have control over their bnodies May 06 01:38
oiaohm Lot of Cultures don’t demard it. May 06 01:39
LastGuyonEarth Many Western religions seem to. May 06 01:39
seller_liar Having a gun is a power May 06 01:39
LastGuyonEarth “Don’t be angry, but KILL INFIDELS!” May 06 01:39
*seller_liar has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”) May 06 01:39
oiaohm Nice myth there about gun and power. May 06 01:39
LastGuyonEarth lol May 06 01:40
LastGuyonEarth Well, glad that’s over. May 06 01:40
oiaohm Having a gun does not give a person power.   Only the power to threaten. May 06 01:40
_Hicham_ having a gun is cowardice May 06 01:40
oiaohm Problem is how will the threated person respond. May 06 01:40
LastGuyonEarth I prefer fist-fighting myself. May 06 01:40
_Hicham_ fist fighting and swords are great May 06 01:41
oiaohm Fighting with fist also is a failure why use fist.   There are other ways to win. May 06 01:41
oiaohm That are less harmful. May 06 01:41
LastGuyonEarth On the contrary, physical violence is great. May 06 01:41
LastGuyonEarth Without weapons. May 06 01:41
LastGuyonEarth It’s a clean fight, and I can’t help but respect that. May 06 01:42
_Hicham_ do u practive any sport? May 06 01:42
LastGuyonEarth Nope. May 06 01:42
oiaohm If you know what is called death touch you can basically stop someones hart then use another presure point to restart it taking away there physical strenth for about 8 hours. May 06 01:42
LastGuyonEarth Unless you consider bar-fighting a sport. May 06 01:42
oiaohm End result is not a single bit of physical damage to person you did it on. May 06 01:43
LastGuyonEarth I like that. May 06 01:43
oiaohm Basically humans are incompetent. May 06 01:44
_Hicham_ oiaohm : u should practice kung-fu May 06 01:44
LastGuyonEarth Hicham: There’s a kung-fu school about 30 mins away from here, it’s really legit. May 06 01:44
LastGuyonEarth Part of training is that you just carry cinder blocks everywhere with you for a few weeks. May 06 01:44
LastGuyonEarth I seriously want to get into it. May 06 01:45
_Hicham_ go ahead May 06 01:46
oiaohm I am a staff and walking stick fighter in weapons. May 06 01:46
oiaohm I still remember using a hooked walking stick to take a top of one martial arts feet and proceed to walk of draging him with stick over shoulder. May 06 01:47
oiaohm What use is a sword if you risk cutting your own foot off. May 06 01:47
LastGuyonEarth Robot feet. May 06 01:48
oiaohm Bladed weapons are designed to kill. May 06 01:48
LastGuyonEarth So are well-formed firsts. May 06 01:48
oiaohm staff and walking stick can be used to kill or capture. May 06 01:48
LastGuyonEarth *fists May 06 01:49
LastGuyonEarth Wow. May 06 01:49
oiaohm I prefer my attacker alive to question. May 06 01:49
oiaohm They might not prefer it of course that as part of questioning I can be breaking arms. May 06 01:50
LastGuyonEarth Eh. May 06 01:51
LastGuyonEarth Whatever floats your boat. May 06 01:52
oiaohm No one who has attacked me has end up dead. May 06 01:52
oiaohm some badly regret it. May 06 01:52
LastGuyonEarth Yeah. May 06 01:57
LastGuyonEarth Well hey, I’m gonna pop out for a bit, I’m re-encoding all my videos in OGG Theora to throw up onto Blip.tv and Miro. May 06 01:57
LastGuyonEarth Later! May 06 01:57
*LastGuyonEarth has quit (“Leaving”) May 06 01:57
_Hicham_ oiaohm : have u worked with OpenGL before? May 06 01:59
oiaohm Most of the time not direct _Hicham_ May 06 02:00
oiaohm I normally use a 3d engine of some form. May 06 02:00
_Hicham_ is it possible to use two OpenGL viewports simultaneously on X11? May 06 02:01
oiaohm Yes and no answer there. May 06 02:02
oiaohm It dependant on video card drivers. May 06 02:02
_Hicham_ what about r300 driver? May 06 02:02
oiaohm DRI 1 design x.org is trying to get rid of only supports 1 viewport. May 06 02:03
oiaohm Stablely. May 06 02:03
oiaohm I guess the open source drivers _Hicham_? May 06 02:03
_Hicham_ yes May 06 02:03
oiaohm They have not updated to DRI 2 last time I checked. May 06 02:03
oiaohm DRI2 allows as many as you like. May 06 02:04
_Hicham_ what about xserver 1.6? May 06 02:04
oiaohm xserver 1.6 can operate in DRI1 or DRI2 mode. May 06 02:04
_Hicham_ Fedora and Ubuntu are including it May 06 02:04
_Hicham_ I will upgrade to Fedora 11 beta to take advantage of it May 06 02:05
oiaohm Its purely mode releated. May 06 02:05
oiaohm And if r300 drivers work fully on DRI2 yet. May 06 02:05
oiaohm It should be all sorted out by end of year. May 06 02:05
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