IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 5th, 2008 - Part II

Dr. Roy Schestowitz

2008-09-06 07:26:10 UTC
Modified: 2008-09-06 07:26:10 UTC

wasabi	disagree with what though, I have no idea.	Sep 05 14:49
taq	how old are you? about more than a decade ago a lot of things happened on the same terms they are happening today	Sep 05 14:49
taq	but now we're here, we have the web to talk about it, this is really a big difference	Sep 05 14:49
taq	and when a see somethings like dirty game, not matter where it came from, from a political, from a company, I talk about that	Sep 05 14:50
schestowitz	Planet GNOME has Microsoft people in it now??	Sep 05 14:50
taq	and of course, some agree, some disagree	Sep 05 14:50
trmanco	schestowitz, yes	Sep 05 14:51
wasabi	What does "microsoft people" mean?	Sep 05 14:51
schestowitz	People employed by Microsoft.	Sep 05 14:51
wasabi	What does that mean, to you?	Sep 05 14:51
schestowitz	it's bad enough that Ubuntu has Microsoft boosters inside.	Sep 05 14:51
trmanco	I've been following planet gnome and 80% of the posts are about mono and.net stuff	Sep 05 14:51
taq	so if I say that m$ and novell are weird stuff, you can disagree, but I'm free to say all that I think about that, and not matter if you think it can be FUD or not, to tell people about it	Sep 05 14:52
schestowitz	That's how Mono and such issues come about.	Sep 05 14:52
schestowitz	I was warned about this a year ago.	Sep 05 14:52
taq	icaza just made a post about integration of visual studio and mono	Sep 05 14:52
wasabi	Oh. Yeah? Interseting. MS has never sent me a check. =(	Sep 05 14:52
wasabi	I should talk to their HR	Sep 05 14:52
taq	how many post about only Free Software and not m$ stuff did you guys saw on his blog on the last 2 years?	Sep 05 14:52
schestowitz	taq: I saw that and linked to it.	Sep 05 14:52
schestowitz	SourceForge too has been advertising VS	Sep 05 14:53
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schestowitz	And they too are funded by Microsoft. Posted this one hours ago: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/...	Sep 05 14:53
schestowitz	Microsoft is just buying off the FOSS community	Sep 05 14:53
taq	did you notice their only power nowadays reside on the money?	Sep 05 14:54
wasabi	So how do you guys feel about UFOs?	Sep 05 14:54
schestowitz	It's cheaper to change your opponent than it is to compete. Novell is one example, but there are others.	Sep 05 14:54
trmanco	well, there will come a time where microsoft will have no money left with all these buyouts	Sep 05 14:54
schestowitz	wasabi: how old are you?	Sep 05 14:54
wasabi	How old are you?	Sep 05 14:54
taq	wasabi: hey, I have some interesting histories about UFOs :-) but that's not the place to talk about that :-)	Sep 05 14:54
schestowitz	trmanco: it might already be in debt	Sep 05 14:55
trmanco	well i hope so	Sep 05 14:55
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/200...	Sep 05 14:55
schestowitz	Novell too is an iffy one.	Sep 05 14:55
schestowitz	Remember that Enron too was glorified... with amazing pensions promised to its workers. It's a bubble.	Sep 05 14:55
schestowitz	And don't tell me about how much software Microsoft 'sells'... because lots of it is not paid for, except for in some rich countries.	Sep 05 14:56
taq	dudes, I think that only the time will show us what is happening, because one day or other the truth comes. but I'll not wait quiet till there. :-)	Sep 05 14:56
taq	the chat is fine but I need to go. will try to come back later. see ya	Sep 05 14:57
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trmanco	http://www.theregister.co.uk/20...	Sep 05 15:03
trmanco	again	Sep 05 15:03
trmanco	the same guy from yesterday	Sep 05 15:04
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schestowitz	People give them attention when they provoke FOSS fans, so they rinse and repeat. I was recently told that they have a rlationship with MS	Sep 05 15:07
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schestowitz	The worst one is Andy Orlowski.	Sep 05 15:07
trmanco	who is Slated?	Sep 05 15:08
schestowitz	slated.org	Sep 05 15:09
trmanco	oh	Sep 05 15:09
trmanco	homer	Sep 05 15:09
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trmanco	there are so many mibs here	Sep 05 15:11
trmanco	:\|	Sep 05 15:11
trmanco	doesn't look right	Sep 05 15:11
[H]omer	Personally I think it's a risk allowing "mib" nyms access to this channel. There's no way to kickban them without banning all Mibbit users.	Sep 05 15:13
schestowitz	Mib mib http://kara.allthingsd.com/f...	Sep 05 15:13
schestowitz	[H]omer: please no.	Sep 05 15:13
[H]omer	No I'm not going to	Sep 05 15:14
schestowitz	I put that access form in the site.	Sep 05 15:14
trmanco	we can always ask them to change their nicks	Sep 05 15:14
[H]omer	I'm just making an observation	Sep 05 15:14
schestowitz	Trolls can use IRC clients too without being ousted for who they work for.	Sep 05 15:14
trmanco	that way we can know who is who	Sep 05 15:14
[H]omer	The Mibbit interface does allow choosing a nick, rather than just "mib_xxx".	Sep 05 15:14
trmanco	not even with ./nick?	Sep 05 15:15
trmanco	after logging in to the channel?	Sep 05 15:15
schestowitz	The channel is no secret anyway.	Sep 05 15:15
[H]omer	We could make a rule that access requires Nick registration.	Sep 05 15:16
schestowitz	Just watch benJIman. There was never seclusion here.	Sep 05 15:16
schestowitz	With or without logging, it's enough to have one 'leaker'	Sep 05 15:16
schestowitz	That's why this question of 'privacy' is all about an illusion.	Sep 05 15:16
[H]omer	Not secret, no ... but at IMHO it would keep the s/n ratio down by discouraging Trolls.	Sep 05 15:16
schestowitz	They come from Tor (some good people too though) and normal routes.	Sep 05 15:17
[H]omer	It's certainly getting busy in here, that's for sure. I take it you posted something that upset Novell/Gnome/Mono people, Roy :)	Sep 05 15:20
schestowitz	Microsoft can be added to this triplet	Sep 05 15:21
schestowitz	They are conjoined in places.	Sep 05 15:21
trmanco	I found BN mentioned on a blog	Sep 05 15:22
[H]omer	It saddens me that there are now so many in the Free Software community who simply shrug their shoulders over Microsoft issues.	Sep 05 15:22
[H]omer	Like it doesn't matter	Sep 05 15:22
[H]omer	And were all "looneys" for dissenting against them	Sep 05 15:23
[H]omer	*we're	Sep 05 15:23
schestowitz	trmanco: which one?	Sep 05 15:24
schestowitz	[H]omer: that's what Microsoft wants. Apple gets it without even 'buying' people.	Sep 05 15:24
trmanco	schestowitz, the something programmer	Sep 05 15:25
[H]omer	That's "cj's" site	Sep 05 15:25
trmanco	yes	Sep 05 15:25
trmanco	hp://wp.colliertech.org/cj/?p=237	Sep 05 15:26
schestowitz	We get linked from many sites. About 10 a day, I think.	Sep 05 15:26
trmanco	I found this one on fsdaily	Sep 05 15:27
schestowitz	I responded to it. Seems like a plant, one among many.	Sep 05 15:27
[H]omer	The PÃÂ¦dantic Programmer's LiveJournal (http://cjcollier.livejournal.com) too.	Sep 05 15:28
schestowitz	So that's the one where he doesn't pretend to be a "FOSS guy"?	Sep 05 15:28
[H]omer	Here's his LinkedIn profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cjcollier	Sep 05 15:29
[H]omer	He's one of those in the "new wave" pro-Microsoft "Open Sauce" camp.	Sep 05 15:29
[H]omer	"Microsoft ain't so bad" ... LOL!	Sep 05 15:30
schestowitz	Heh. Make that SourceForge love Windows, eh?	Sep 05 15:30
schestowitz	I think I wrote so yesterday.	Sep 05 15:30
[H]omer	SF sold out	Sep 05 15:30
schestowitz	That's the de Icazas that I was warned about before.	Sep 05 15:30
schestowitz	They try to marry Microsoft with FOSS.	Sep 05 15:30
[H]omer	Yup ... the de Icaza "tribe".	Sep 05 15:30
schestowitz	Wait until he pressures the likes of Ubuntu to preinstall Trojans like Moonlight.	Sep 05 15:31
schestowitz	Because "he's a FOSS guy" (lookie! I have a blog) and "Microsoft is not so bad"	Sep 05 15:31
[H]omer	Shuttleworth would be an easy target for the Icaza tribe, since he has few strong convictions about "Freedom". He's more interested in "easy".	Sep 05 15:32
schestowitz	BoycottNovell? No! Don't listen to them. "they are not interested in solutions..."	Sep 05 15:32
schestowitz	[H]omer: yes, I know. He tries to be 'nice' to everyone for deals like the one with Dell.	Sep 05 15:32
[H]omer	I have mixed feelings about the success of NetBook Remix, as you know.	Sep 05 15:33
[H]omer	There's no question it pushes Linux to the masses	Sep 05 15:33
schestowitz	Yes.	Sep 05 15:33
[H]omer	But at what cost to Freedom?	Sep 05 15:33
schestowitz	At whose expense?	Sep 05 15:33
[H]omer	Note: "Linux" not "Free Software".	Sep 05 15:34
schestowitz	Maemo uses Debian as its base, but it might be 'codecs tax'-tained	Sep 05 15:34
schestowitz	*tainted (I'm not sure though)	Sep 05 15:34
[H]omer	That's what excites Shuttleworth ... the technicalities of "Linux", he patently doesn't care about the political issues. He and the Mono people should get on like a house on fire.	Sep 05 15:35
schestowitz	Microsoft would never say "GNU/Linux". It wants to hide the philosophy. I expected Ubuntu to do better than this. Debian does.	Sep 05 15:35
[H]omer	Sweaty B. can barely bring himself to say the phrase "Open Source", much less "GNU/Linux".	Sep 05 15:36
schestowitz	Does he know RMS? Microsoft never talks about the GNU people.	Sep 05 15:37
schestowitz	They use proxies like CompTIA to attack RMS.	Sep 05 15:37
MinceR	"Sweaty B." -- i like that.	Sep 05 15:38
schestowitz	very petty how they use their pressure groups to attack people.	Sep 05 15:38
[H]omer	MinceR, : Actually I usually just call him "Sweaty", or "Sweaty the Impaler" if I'm especially disgusted with something he's done recently.	Sep 05 15:39
MinceR	i usually call him "Monkey Boy"	Sep 05 15:39
MinceR	but this one works too	Sep 05 15:39
schestowitz	'Yes, you'll read a fair number of posts on this blog that are critical of Microsoft. Get used to it. You see, it's an open source blog, and until Steve Ballmer figures out how to say "open source" without throwing up in his mouth, there will likely be an "anti-Microsoft" angle to many of the themes I cover. If you want the rosy view on Microsoft, head over to the MSDN blogs and lose yourself in praise of Microsoft.'	Sep 05 15:39
schestowitz	http://news.cnet.com/8301-135...	Sep 05 15:39
schestowitz	That's about Microsoft attacking him when he criticises Microsoft. You're 'not allowed'.	Sep 05 15:39
schestowitz	[BillG, StewatyB] @mcirosoft.com	Sep 05 15:40
[H]omer	Due Props to the MSBBC for publishing "It's not the Gates, it's the bars", though.	Sep 05 15:40
[H]omer	BTW: Any news on if Linux is ever getting the iPlayer (native + downloads)?	Sep 05 15:41
schestowitz	"Gates may be gone, but the walls and bars of proprietary software he helped create remain, for now. Dismantling them is up to us."	Sep 05 15:41
schestowitz	[H]omer: COLA trolls didn't notice this, but the BBC also published an attack on Linux yesterday-ish	Sep 05 15:41
[H]omer	Oh. That's their way of "balancing" Stallman's article, I guess.	Sep 05 15:42
[H]omer	Mind you, Pearly is one of their columnists now.	Sep 05 15:42
[H]omer	Maybe they should have just stuck Stallman; Moglen; Pearly and Sweaty in the same room for a debate.	Sep 05 15:43
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2...	Sep 05 15:43
schestowitz	In lInux Today, the BBC was accused by some for putting this "probably paid for MS article" (not exact quote)	Sep 05 15:43
[H]omer	Reading it now...	Sep 05 15:44
schestowitz	[H]omer: they need to feed the chubby one first. Otherwise, it's like putting Hollyfield and Tyson in a room... could use some ch-eer-ious.	Sep 05 15:44
[H]omer	The MSBBC is Microsoft's own "Citizen Kane".	Sep 05 15:46
[H]omer	Nothing they do shocks me now.	Sep 05 15:46
schestowitz	It's time to watch how they play politics ahead of the election.	Sep 05 15:47
[H]omer	In fact, the official "media" in general is now completely untrustworthy.	Sep 05 15:47
[H]omer	If I want news, I'll ask the people ... the real people, uncorrupted by political influence and money.	Sep 05 15:47
schestowitz	They already seem to be occupying some special positions and making campaign donation/contributions. Even Barack seems corrupted by them (sorry).	Sep 05 15:48
[H]omer	More than likely	Sep 05 15:48
[H]omer	American politics is inherently corrupt	Sep 05 15:48
[H]omer	There's no balance at all	Sep 05 15:48
schestowitz	Just don't ask /dead/ people: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/01/...	Sep 05 15:48
schestowitz	Their voices were stolen from their graves	Sep 05 15:49
schestowitz	Look what Garry "fltfish" Stewart is doing. I imagine he's using the name of a holocaust survivor who died to spread outrageous ant-Linux smears and personal attacks.	Sep 05 15:50
[H]omer	Anti-Linux people are just part of a bigger "right-wing" agenda. It was never about "my toy is better than your toy" envy, it's about the principles of Freedom vs the principles of tyranny. They're right-wing fanatics. Just look at DFS for a stereotypical example.	Sep 05 15:52
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[H]omer	Or that blatant fascist Alexander Terekhov	Sep 05 15:54
schestowitz	Well, that's not true in all nations.	Sep 05 15:54
[H]omer	In the "West", mainly.	Sep 05 15:54
schestowitz	In a way, the US' current administration is standing in the way of other nations that want independence. Just watch the protests from South America against ISO	Sep 05 15:55
[H]omer	Especially the United States of Advertising, Land of the Fee.	Sep 05 15:55
*libervisco_ is now known as libervisco		Sep 05 15:55
[H]omer	Yes, Brazil is the best hope for the Americas	Sep 05 15:55
schestowitz	Microsoft corrupted ISO for more control	Sep 05 15:56
schestowitz	Have you seen the latest from Brazil? Didn't post this to COLA...	Sep 05 15:56
[H]omer	ISO is irrelevant now, thanks to the Vole.That was maybe the plan all along.	Sep 05 15:56
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/...	Sep 05 15:56
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08... (as you know, Brazil plans to put 52 million kids on Debian)	Sep 05 15:57
[H]omer	Yes, that's Microsoft's typical anti-Linux propaganda - "only Freetards use Linux".	Sep 05 15:57
schestowitz	BTW, Alex T is harassing others like Groklaw, not just COLA	Sep 05 15:57
[H]omer	Oh yes, he's infamous.	Sep 05 15:58
[H]omer	He's been attacking the FSF for decades	Sep 05 15:58
schestowitz	Really? That's new to me.	Sep 05 15:58
[H]omer	Yes, he has a whole Website dedicated to it	Sep 05 15:58
schestowitz	I was once asked where he travels. Maybe he's a front for something.	Sep 05 15:58
[H]omer	Wait, I'll see if I can find it.	Sep 05 15:59
schestowitz	He could be an O'Gara-like Microsoft alter-ego	Sep 05 15:59
schestowitz	Also defending SCO BTW.	Sep 05 15:59
[H]omer	Here it is, probably the most vicious attack ever against Stallman; Moglen; and the FSF: http://www.softpanorama.org/...	Sep 05 16:07
[H]omer	Terekhov is behind this (nym).	Sep 05 16:07
schestowitz	http://www.google.com/search?s...	Sep 05 16:11
schestowitz	I see it's linked by Oliver Bell, Microsoft's manager in the east	Sep 05 16:11
schestowitz	Let's see who else.	Sep 05 16:11
schestowitz	Oliver Bell asked about me BTW.	Sep 05 16:12
schestowitz	Look at this:http://www.google.com/search?sourceid...	Sep 05 16:12
schestowitz	OOps. http://www.linux-community.de/Neue... Sounds like Novell	Sep 05 16:12
[H]omer	It's an "officially sponsored" work, i.e. propaganda	Sep 05 16:15
schestowitz	How can I show this?	Sep 05 16:16
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schestowitz	Sounds like the incident with MINIX and Linux (Microsoft paying to encourage Andy to sue Linus)	Sep 05 16:16
seller_liar	schestowitz: It's possible to make a graph about the m$-novell deal?	Sep 05 16:18
schestowitz	I thought about ikt.	Sep 05 16:18
schestowitz	I got some software from the Mandriva repo, but it didn't do what I needed.	Sep 05 16:18
schestowitz	http://alinuxblog.wordpress.com/2008/...	Sep 05 16:18
seller_liar	schestowitz: wait I show you a example	Sep 05 16:19
seller_liar	schestowitz: the graph is very explicative	Sep 05 16:19
seller_liar	http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagem:M...	Sep 05 16:20
schestowitz	More from Matt "Money! Show me money and iPhone!" Asay: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-...	Sep 05 16:20
schestowitz	sigh lost cause.	Sep 05 16:20
seller_liar	schestowitz: steve woz has in Brazil	Sep 05 16:20
*schestowitz looks		Sep 05 16:20
schestowitz	Steve or Woz? Or both? ;-p	Sep 05 16:20
seller_liar	wozniak	Sep 05 16:20
seller_liar	schestowitz: A lot of people say is a "very good" person	Sep 05 16:21
seller_liar	schestowitz: It's true?	Sep 05 16:21
schestowitz	seller_liar: I was going to do this, but couldn't get the software to do multiple nodes. I'll need to GIMP it, I guess.	Sep 05 16:21
schestowitz	He slammed open source, sort of.	Sep 05 16:21
schestowitz	They glorify him, but hear he's okay.	Sep 05 16:22
schestowitz	He replies to someone I know.	Sep 05 16:22
seller_liar	schestowitz:who?	Sep 05 16:22
schestowitz	Woz	Sep 05 16:22
*schestowitz apologises for typos		Sep 05 16:23
seller_liar	schestowitz: ok	Sep 05 16:23
seller_liar	schestowitz: do you need a mapmind maker?	Sep 05 16:23
schestowitz	Yes please	Sep 05 16:24
seller_liar	http://www.illuminesoftware.co.u...	Sep 05 16:26
seller_liar	http://freemind.sourceforge.net...	Sep 05 16:27
schestowitz	They are probably uni-directional many of them.	Sep 05 16:28
*schestowitz still looking		Sep 05 16:28
seller_liar	do you want a bijective mind map?	Sep 05 16:29
schestowitz	http://news.cnet.com/8301-135...	Sep 05 16:29
schestowitz	Freely positioned nodes...	Sep 05 16:30
schestowitz	I just need to do many arrows.	Sep 05 16:30
schestowitz	http://www.google-watch.org/	Sep 05 16:30
schestowitz	Related to this was some site I'm trying to find.	Sep 05 16:31
seller_liar	schestowitz: very good info about google	Sep 05 16:31
seller_liar	schestowitz: I will close my account on gmail	Sep 05 16:31
schestowitz	Can't remember it... going back to like 2003 or 2004 when a colleague showed it to me.	Sep 05 16:31
seller_liar	schestowitz: how to attack google?	Sep 05 16:32
seller_liar	schestowitz: only adblock	Sep 05 16:32
schestowitz	I don't attack them.	Sep 05 16:32
schestowitz	I just pasted a link while trying to find something else.	Sep 05 16:32
seller_liar	schestowitz:It's not the moment	Sep 05 16:32
seller_liar	schestowitz: But ,if we need, we will attack someday	Sep 05 16:33
schestowitz	I block all the Google spyware myself (AdSense, Analytics, etc)	Sep 05 16:33
seller_liar	schestowitz: fsf does not use ads	Sep 05 16:33
schestowitz	My family and friend don't though. The spying relies on people's ignorance, so they are profiled secretly by many companies (Phorm anyway?)	Sep 05 16:33
seller_liar	schestowitz: even fsf 100% distros does not uses ads too	Sep 05 16:33
seller_liar	schestowitz: have you tested freemind?	Sep 05 16:34
schestowitz	The thing about Phorm is that you can't even stop it and te crooks that include BT and the govt. that colludes just lets this law violation be.	Sep 05 16:34
schestowitz	Not yet	Sep 05 16:34
schestowitz	it's something for the weekend, I think.	Sep 05 16:34
[H]omer	I use Adblock Plus combined with Privoxy and the sa-blacklist. Kills all known ads/tracking dead :)	Sep 05 16:34
[H]omer	Also my VPN circumvents Phorm.	Sep 05 16:35
seller_liar	schestowitz: in Brazil ,google loves orkut	Sep 05 16:35
seller_liar	schestowitz: He knows everything about brazilians	Sep 05 16:35
seller_liar	schestowitz: the big problem is only 5% of world worry about this	Sep 05 16:36
schestowitz	As long as Google does not sell this data...	Sep 05 16:36
schestowitz	(or it leaks...)	Sep 05 16:37
seller_liar	schestowitz: but profiles every user for more ads	Sep 05 16:37
seller_liar	schestowitz: specialized info	Sep 05 16:37
schestowitz	seller_liar: another 5% is also exploiting this.	Sep 05 16:37
schestowitz	Where 5% equals "people who live in decent conditions"	Sep 05 16:37
seller_liar	schestowitz: 95% of this world ,only thinks in drugs (alcohol) and sex	Sep 05 16:37
schestowitz	seller_liar: that's how they are educated	Sep 05 16:38
seller_liar	schestowitz: the other 5% thinks about society	Sep 05 16:38
[H]omer	Well I must be part of the 5% then, since I'm Tee-Total.	Sep 05 16:38
seller_liar	schestowitz: example , a lot of my people grow in poverty	Sep 05 16:38
seller_liar	[H]omer: me too	Sep 05 16:38
[H]omer	But I'm a heavy smoker though	Sep 05 16:38
schestowitz	It serves those that can abuse it. Ignorance (or sports/celeb knowledge) is the best friend to a corrupt politicians that want to keep the masses dumb	Sep 05 16:38
seller_liar	schestowitz: then , when the my people grow ,all of them forget the past	Sep 05 16:39
seller_liar	schestowitz: example in America,	Sep 05 16:39
schestowitz	[H]omer: look up that lobbying group I postd about earlier.	Sep 05 16:39
schestowitz	CAGW	Sep 05 16:39
schestowitz	Smoking connection, IIRC. Tobacco industry.	Sep 05 16:40
seller_liar	schestowitz: a lot of NBA guys grow in poverty	Sep 05 16:40
seller_liar	schestowitz: but later ,the guys forget the past ,and "toast" all money in bitches and lux	Sep 05 16:40
schestowitz	Well, so they can sell a dream (NBA) to keep people clinging onto sports.	Sep 05 16:40
schestowitz	The problem for a govt' is a state where many people delve deep into politics.	Sep 05 16:40
schestowitz	And use as their sources something other than the Bush York Times.	Sep 05 16:41
seller_liar	schestowitz: politics SHOULD NOT be optional	Sep 05 16:41
seller_liar	schestowitz: look	Sep 05 16:41
[H]omer	But in terms of my motivations ... Money: I care about subsistence, not greed. Materialism: I care about necessity, before "want". Basically Freedom and Rights are all I'm really passionate about.	Sep 05 16:41
seller_liar	schestowitz: how many people discuss about politics	Sep 05 16:41
seller_liar	[H]omer: me too	Sep 05 16:41
schestowitz	Remember that it's publications like the NTY that suppressed voices that said there were no WoMD before the Iraq invasion	Sep 05 16:42
schestowitz	They serves Bush and its cronies; same with Microsoft and other investor or mutual relationships.	Sep 05 16:42
schestowitz	Gartner for example.	Sep 05 16:42
seller_liar	schestowitz: people can not discuss about politcs only in election	Sep 05 16:42
seller_liar	schestowitz: politics SHOULD BE a constant topic	Sep 05 16:43
schestowitz	seller_liar: that's not the correct question (about politics). The question is about /sources/	Sep 05 16:43
seller_liar	schestowitz: sources?	Sep 05 16:43
schestowitz	Many people /think/ they know politics, but they are fed by the very same people they try to know about.	Sep 05 16:43
schestowitz	Just watch how brushed up all those biographies of politicians are in the press.	Sep 05 16:43
schestowitz	Eveb Wikipedia has been shown to be gamed by the government.	Sep 05 16:44
schestowitz	Australia for example... the US too... they toss smears to others like Castro if that helps...	Sep 05 16:44
[H]omer	Politics is easy to understand: Just assume everything is a lie perpetrated for the sake of propaganda. Believe only what you see in front of you, and ignore the lies.	Sep 05 16:44
schestowitz	Technolgy advice likewise.	Sep 05 16:45
seller_liar	schestowitz: but people only thinks about sex and drugs financial power	Sep 05 16:45
seller_liar	schestowitz: of course	Sep 05 16:45
schestowitz	Ask RMS about it and he'll tell you. You must subscribe to trusted blogs, not the pre$$	Sep 05 16:46
seller_liar	schestowitz: people should know where to find infos about politics	Sep 05 16:46
schestowitz	I don't know much about that area.	Sep 05 16:46
schestowitz	Daily Kos is considered useful.	Sep 05 16:47
[H]omer	seller_liar, make that "only evil people" think about those things.	Sep 05 16:47
[H]omer	Or at least "obsess" over them	Sep 05 16:47
schestowitz	That's a matter of unbringing.	Sep 05 16:47
seller_liar	schestowitz: but the people even not to do this	Sep 05 16:47
schestowitz	The danger is that it pases from one generation to another and is absorbed through an education system of creationism and patents.	Sep 05 16:47
schestowitz	*upbringing (up on top)	Sep 05 16:48
seller_liar	schestowitz: yes	Sep 05 16:48
seller_liar	schestowitz: the sons clones moral parents	Sep 05 16:48
schestowitz	It used to be the church	Sep 05 16:48
schestowitz	Now the schools are the "church"	Sep 05 16:48
schestowitz	teaching people to pray to God for "success"	Sep 05 16:48
seller_liar	schestowitz:but the big problem	Sep 05 16:49
schestowitz	Scientology being an extremity.	Sep 05 16:49
seller_liar	schestowitz: is that parents do not worry about this!!!	Sep 05 16:49
schestowitz	"Gold Microsoft Partner" being the equivalent of patriarchs of the church.	Sep 05 16:50
seller_liar	schestowitz: parents only worry about your carrer,job and sex	Sep 05 16:50
seller_liar	schestowitz: and ,of course	Sep 05 16:50
seller_liar	schestowitz:	Sep 05 16:50
seller_liar	schestowitz: protect the sons against the "evil world"	Sep 05 16:50
[H]omer	Society is divided into three parts - oppressors, the oppressed, and those who fight oppression. My guess would be that the "oppressed" represents the largest majority, with oppressors and those who fight them representing a tiny minority (i.e. good vs evil). Most other people are "neutral" - IOW powerless and ignorant.	Sep 05 16:50
schestowitz	It's well concealed in ways	Sep 05 16:51
schestowitz	Whereas some people in the US live in tent, Hollywood shows houses with a big lawn and a happy family that has 3 cars	Sep 05 16:52
seller_liar	schestowitz: american dream	Sep 05 16:52
schestowitz	Yes, it keeps people motivated.	Sep 05 16:52
seller_liar	schestowitz: holywood is a ilusion	Sep 05 16:52
[H]omer	Yes that's the propaganda of the "American Dream"	Sep 05 16:52
schestowitz	Living chasing a dream forever, until they drop dead. It's way of encouraging labour.	Sep 05 16:52
[H]omer	But the underbelly of that "dream" is a nightmare	Sep 05 16:53
schestowitz	RMS is worth citing again.	Sep 05 16:53
seller_liar	schestowitz: the american dream seem equal about cinderela	Sep 05 16:53
[H]omer	It turns out the the "liberty" extolled by that American Dream, is actually just the "Freedom to brutally exploit others".	Sep 05 16:54
schestowitz	He said something about this cculture of debt (house, cars, children). Living under the rule of mortgage monsters (multi-trillion companies) is a like of imprisonment.	Sep 05 16:54
seller_liar	schestowitz: let 'see	Sep 05 16:54
[H]omer	IOW it's all about money and power.	Sep 05 16:54
[H]omer	Not altruism	Sep 05 16:55
schestowitz	Mind you, RMS looks at social issues first.	Sep 05 16:55
[H]omer	Not real Freedom	Sep 05 16:55
seller_liar	schestowitz: IOW?	Sep 05 16:55
schestowitz	He doesn't care about business, not as a priority.	Sep 05 16:55
seller_liar	seller_liar: example:	Sep 05 16:55
schestowitz	I asked him about MySQL's dual-licensing and he told me.	Sep 05 16:55
[H]omer	"IOW" = "In Other Words".	Sep 05 16:55
seller_liar	[H]omer: ok	Sep 05 16:55
seller_liar	and...	Sep 05 16:55
schestowitz	Let me find something.	Sep 05 16:55
schestowitz	http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/...	Sep 05 16:56
schestowitz	That one is about copyright monopolies	Sep 05 16:56
schestowitz	This one is also good: http://blogs.computerworld.com...	Sep 05 16:56
schestowitz	All are new BTW. "I really don't care. From my point of view, business issues are minor in comparison with issues of human rights and general well-being."	Sep 05 16:56
seller_liar	schestowitz: yes! , of course	Sep 05 16:57
[H]omer	The FSF philosophy is that money should be a means to an end, not an end unto itself. IOW money and Freedom and not contradictory, but money should not be abused to inhibit Freedom. There's no problem with making profit, as long as it doesn't deprive others (greed).	Sep 05 16:57
seller_liar	schestowitz: but only 5% know about this	Sep 05 16:57
schestowitz	Less than 5	Sep 05 16:58
schestowitz	Maybe 0.5, globally	Sep 05 16:58
seller_liar	schestowitz: maybe this 5% is hierachical	Sep 05 16:58
seller_liar	schestowitz: 0.5 thinks a lot about society	Sep 05 16:59
[H]omer	0.01% in the US, maybe.	Sep 05 16:59
schestowitz	0.5% owns how much of the world's wealth?	Sep 05 16:59
[H]omer	They're "conditioned" to worship greed.	Sep 05 16:59
schestowitz	[H]omer: got some figures at hand?	Sep 05 16:59
[H]omer	Just guessing	Sep 05 16:59
[H]omer	Based on US attitude	Sep 05 17:00
schestowitz	About wealth distribution	Sep 05 17:00
schestowitz	It would be nice to see a curve for wealth distibution	Sep 05 17:00
[H]omer	Ah OK	Sep 05 17:00
seller_liar	schestowitz: more of 80% of the world is poor	Sep 05 17:00
schestowitz	Value versus population%	Sep 05 17:00
[H]omer	I did see figures somewhere, I think it may be in Wiki-P	Sep 05 17:01
schestowitz	Define "poor", it's newspaper speak...	Sep 05 17:01
seller_liar	schestowitz: poor is people with insuficient per capita	Sep 05 17:01
[H]omer	http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/200...	Sep 05 17:02
schestowitz	What's insufficient? It depends on arbitrary definitons	Sep 05 17:02
seller_liar	schestowitz: yes, may I am doing a error	Sep 05 17:03
[H]omer	"The richest 1% of the population have increased their share of national income from around 6% in 1980 to 13% in 1999. The wealthiest 10% of the population now own more than half the country's wealth - up from 47% to 54% over the past 10 years."	Sep 05 17:03
schestowitz	re: "Rich-poor gap 'has widened under Blair'" is is not true everywhere?	Sep 05 17:03
schestowitz	Without intervenation, it naturally gravitates like this, until implosion	Sep 05 17:03
seller_liar	schestowitz: sorry ,a mistake ,forget	Sep 05 17:03
schestowitz	If the fox guards the hen house, the gap widens	Sep 05 17:05
seller_liar	schestowitz: what ?	Sep 05 17:05
[H]omer	"The top 1% of New York City tax filers now receive more than a third of the city\u2019s adjusted gross income." ~ http://business.timesonline.co.uk/t...	Sep 05 17:06
schestowitz	I don't know if you follow COLA, but Rex Ballard made some excellent posts about McCain openly supporting Microsoft.	Sep 05 17:06
[H]omer	I can believe it. McCain and the Vole are two rotten peas in a pod.	Sep 05 17:07
schestowitz	New York has always been an exploitation factory.	Sep 05 17:07
seller_liar	schestowitz: no, but i will read some info about comp.os	Sep 05 17:07
[H]omer	Like Icahn(nibal)	Sep 05 17:08
seller_liar	schestowitz: The big problem is conformism	Sep 05 17:08
schestowitz	LOL	Sep 05 17:08
seller_liar	schestowitz: why people do nothing aobut this ,	Sep 05 17:09
schestowitz	Ichan,American hero. Learn from this guy, children.	Sep 05 17:09
seller_liar	schestowitz: Every day people are thinking only.......in sex	Sep 05 17:09
schestowitz	He's rich, thereofore he is successful	Sep 05 17:09
[H]omer	McCain joins Craig Barret; Donald Trump; Steve Ballmer and Bill Gates as one of the world's most evil men.	Sep 05 17:09
schestowitz	“Strive not to be a man of success, but rather strive to be a man of value.” --Albert Einstein	Sep 05 17:10
[H]omer	Einstein was at least as good a philosopher as he was a scientist	Sep 05 17:10
schestowitz	Exploitation pays.	Sep 05 17:11
[H]omer	Evil is profitable	Sep 05 17:11
schestowitz	I heard from a mate that he was rude (?) and viciously competitive.	Sep 05 17:11
schestowitz	Erdos was like Einstein I think. He didn't give a s* about money, just maths.	Sep 05 17:11
[H]omer	Being competitive is fine, as long as that "competition" is fair	Sep 05 17:12
[H]omer	Microsoft's breed of competition is just racketeering	Sep 05 17:12
schestowitz	"You're just a Microsoft hater"	Sep 05 17:13
seller_liar	[H]omer:is not fair because some people have advantages	Sep 05 17:13
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/micros...	Sep 05 17:13
[H]omer	I'm going to write a blog post about that word "hater". It's propaganda.	Sep 05 17:13
schestowitz	People drink it.	Sep 05 17:13
schestowitz	Like the GPL FUD Microsoft passes to innocent new members of the Money Club.	Sep 05 17:14
[H]omer	seller_liar, as long as society gives everyone an equal opportunity, then competition is fair.	Sep 05 17:14
seller_liar	[H]omer: This is not true	Sep 05 17:14
[H]omer	Unfortunately opportunities are often "stolen" from people	Sep 05 17:14
schestowitz	It's human's nature, so there must be regulation	Sep 05 17:15
[H]omer	seller_liar, it's not true that everyone has equal opportunities, but we should strive to make it so	Sep 05 17:15
schestowitz	But regulation softens when money enters the game	Sep 05 17:15
schestowitz	http://lessig.org/blog/2008/07/netr...	Sep 05 17:16
[H]omer	Think about this term "hater" for a minute.	Sep 05 17:17
[H]omer	What does it actually mean?	Sep 05 17:17
schestowitz	Good question.	Sep 05 17:17
schestowitz	It's philosophical though.	Sep 05 17:17
[H]omer	It's like saying "you're not allowed to dissent"	Sep 05 17:17
schestowitz	You could wind up thinking about "hate" due to stereotype or due to /injury/	Sep 05 17:17
[H]omer	"If you dissent, then you must be motivated by malice, not justifiable reasons".	Sep 05 17:18
schestowitz	Xeniphobia is often an artefact of the former	Sep 05 17:18
*seller_liar has quit (Remote closed the connection)		Sep 05 17:18
schestowitz	The latter is well illustrated by Microsoft direct attacks on many companies and Linux.	Sep 05 17:18
schestowitz	Tell me about it...	Sep 05 17:18
schestowitz	Boycott Novell is considered an "anti" site because of the word "boycott" (Shane's choice, not mine)	Sep 05 17:19
[H]omer	Also think about this ... why would anyone not connected with a company, be so loyal to that company that they'd sabotage the competition, and call anyone who dissents against their company "haters"?	Sep 05 17:19
[H]omer	What's the motivation?	Sep 05 17:20
[H]omer	Is it mindless "fanboy-ism"?	Sep 05 17:20
[H]omer	Is it just malice?	Sep 05 17:20
[H]omer	Is it juvenile delinquency?	Sep 05 17:21
schestowitz	Gymnastics in logic.	Sep 05 17:21
schestowitz	But it's well prepared by marketing people and poison pens like Enderle.	Sep 05 17:21
schestowitz	That is, it's engineered so as to portray dissent as dangerous and irrational.	Sep 05 17:21
schestowitz	“I have a hard time seeing the Zealots as any different from terrorist… I strongly believe that if September 11 showed us anything, it was that zealots” — Rob Enderle	Sep 05 17:22
[H]omer	I mean, let's say I buy a computer with Windows installed. Why would I care if people said "Windows sucks". It /does/ - fact. It's true. Why would I defend Microsoft? What would I gain?	Sep 05 17:22
schestowitz	“Linux is being widely used on the desktop in the third world, where applications are limited and labor is inexpensive…” — Rob Enderle	Sep 05 17:22
schestowitz	“many Linux supporters are a bunch of potty-mouthed malcontents. Enterprises are better off staying away from Linux and open source” — Rob Enderle	Sep 05 17:22
schestowitz	“I saw what appeared to be a word-for-word copy of about every third line of code in the central module of the Linux kernel” — Rob Enderle	Sep 05 17:22
schestowitz	“I started writing about Linux because I was told I couldn’t and the more people told me I couldn’t, and particularly when they said ‘or else,’ the more the Linux dirty laundry became attractive to me” — Rob Enderle	Sep 05 17:23
[H]omer	This is why I contend that anyone who defends Microsoft must be connected with them somehow, otherwise there simple is no motivation.	Sep 05 17:24
schestowitz	He's connected with them	Sep 05 17:24
*benJIman wonders why none of the regulars in this channel (other than schestowitz) contribute to the boyblog.		Sep 05 17:24
[H]omer	So what does that tell us about Mono, Gnome, et al?	Sep 05 17:24
schestowitz	Perlow wrote about it.	Sep 05 17:24
schestowitz	He's having cocktail parties in Remond (at least one)	Sep 05 17:24
schestowitz	benJIman: they do	Sep 05 17:25
[H]omer	Jody Goldberg contributed to the ultimate ratification of OOXML, for example.	Sep 05 17:25
schestowitz	I don't think there's a relationship though.	Sep 05 17:25
benJIman	schestowitz: I havn't seen a post by anyone other than you in over a year.	Sep 05 17:25
schestowitz	That's selfishness.	Sep 05 17:25
[H]omer	Di Icaza constantly praises Microsoft ... even going for interviews, and fawning over them.	Sep 05 17:25
schestowitz	benJIman: time for you to read BN	Sep 05 17:25
schestowitz	Novell's executives too. Well, they visit Microsoftt	Sep 05 17:26
schestowitz	In many ways, those two companies are already conjoined.	Sep 05 17:26
benJIman	schestowitz: Can you link me to an article not posted by you?	Sep 05 17:26
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05/27/...	Sep 05 17:27
benJIman	Oh, you still posted it so I didn't notice.	Sep 05 17:29
benJIman	Why don't you give other people authorship permissions?	Sep 05 17:30
[H]omer	That's my article	Sep 05 17:30
[H]omer	I gave permission	Sep 05 17:30
schestowitz	benJIman: I had people approach me to write stuff. I asked Shane whether they give them an account.	Sep 05 17:31
schestowitz	[H]omer: benJIman is an OpenSUSE guy. He was at SUSE (the old one) weeks ago. He stays because he's polite, but he's not here to help	Sep 05 17:31
[H]omer	Fancy's himself as a "moderator", does he?	Sep 05 17:32
schestowitz	It's a polite heckler more like	Sep 05 17:32
schestowitz	Like Timmy Funkenbusch	Sep 05 17:32
[H]omer	just boot him	Sep 05 17:33
benJIman	No I was wondering why [H]omer and MinceR et al did not post articles.	Sep 05 17:33
[H]omer	If he's not part of the solution, he's part of the problem	Sep 05 17:33
*benJIman rofls.		Sep 05 17:33
schestowitz	Well..	Sep 05 17:33
schestowitz	It would be used against us.	Sep 05 17:33
schestowitz	I don't delete comments in BN, so I don't boot people, either.	Sep 05 17:34
[H]omer	You're too tolerant. I wouldn't have the patience for such people.	Sep 05 17:35
*benJIman wonders what the solution is.		Sep 05 17:37
schestowitz	[H]omer: no, just let it be.	Sep 05 17:38
schestowitz	There's also FunkyPenguin (andrew), who is another OpenSUSE person. They are usually quiet.	Sep 05 17:38
schestowitz	benJIman is here to shout out in the opensuse channel is there's something that requires their intervention (based on what I can gather)	Sep 05 17:41
benJIman	This channel hardly requires anyone's intervention.	Sep 05 17:42
[H]omer	Then why are you here?	Sep 05 17:43
[H]omer	Are you a Choob-bot by any chance?	Sep 05 17:43
benJIman	I already said.	Sep 05 17:43
[H]omer	Humour me	Sep 05 17:43
benJIman	14:03:24 < benJIman> I'm here because it's entertaining.	Sep 05 17:43
[H]omer	Glad we could help	Sep 05 17:44
schestowitz	[H]omer: he's fooling you.	Sep 05 17:44
[H]omer	Duh	Sep 05 17:44
schestowitz	He has a history of shouting out to openSUSE developers, who then resort to r'iots'.	Sep 05 17:44
benJIman	You are welcome to join the opensuse channels if you don't believe me.	Sep 05 17:44
schestowitz	benJIman: what for? For laughs?	Sep 05 17:45
schestowitz	I haven't things to find there.	Sep 05 17:45
benJIman	If you are afraid of what we talk about.	Sep 05 17:45
schestowitz	It would also be disrespectful for me to join it.	Sep 05 17:45
schestowitz	I'm already on #mandriva constantly.	Sep 05 17:45
benJIman	You seem to think we plot against you.	Sep 05 17:45
[H]omer	Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely OpenSUSE != Novell, so why do you care if someone wants to boycott them?	Sep 05 17:45
benJIman	[H]omer: I don't.	Sep 05 17:45
[H]omer	Not that long ago, Novell wasn't even a Linux company (Netware)	Sep 05 17:46
schestowitz	benJIman: you guys bent our arms before we posted some Saturday stuff that's flattering to you.	Sep 05 17:46
schestowitz	Besides, you slam everything I write to criticise OpenSUSE, so I'm more cautious.	Sep 05 17:46
schestowitz	But that need not be the case.	Sep 05 17:46
benJIman	Well it's usually inaccurate.	Sep 05 17:46
schestowitz	[H]omer: Novell is a Linux company?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHA?	Sep 05 17:46
schestowitz	I'm going trhough Novell news at this very moment.	Sep 05 17:47
[H]omer	Now it is	Sep 05 17:47
schestowitz	It's all about identity management (proprietary) and other such junk.	Sep 05 17:47
schestowitz	Legacy stuff...	Sep 05 17:47
[H]omer	It's like saying that "Microsoft is a Linux company" just because they control SUSE by proxy.	Sep 05 17:47
benJIman	Control suse eh.	Sep 05 17:48
[H]omer	Yes.	Sep 05 17:48
benJIman	In what way?	Sep 05 17:48
[H]omer	Novell owns SUSE. Microsoft pwnes Novell.	Sep 05 17:48
schestowitz	be sure Miucrosoft brags about it.	Sep 05 17:49
[H]omer	It's part of their little "protection" racket.	Sep 05 17:49
schestowitz	Just days ago, Ramj used Novell/SUSE to argue that Mcirosoft and FOSS are buddies.	Sep 05 17:49
[H]omer	OpenSUSE, OTOH is a community distro.	Sep 05 17:49
benJIman	It's openSUSE btw.	Sep 05 17:49
schestowitz	This may not fool you, but it's good enough to use against the Judge Jacksons and Neelies of the world.	Sep 05 17:50
[H]omer	We shouldn't blame openSUSE for Novell's mmistakes	Sep 05 17:50
schestowitz	it's OpenSUSE	Sep 05 17:50

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 5th, 2008 - Part II

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