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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 28th, 2009

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zuzait is licensing YaST before it was GPLed, and SQL Anywhere which used to be soled with SUSE 9 something Professional (boxed)Feb 28 00:00
zuzas/soled/selledFeb 28 00:01
zuzageeeeFeb 28 00:01
zuzasoldFeb 28 00:01
schestowitzStupid study for the day: Study: Hackers still enjoy vandalizing Web sites < http://www.linuxworld.com.au/article/278142/stu... >. It should really say "Crackers", tooFeb 28 00:02
zuzaIs it "legal" to sell gpl software with eula one?Feb 28 00:02
schestowitzStudy: pilots still enjoy flying.Feb 28 00:02
schestowitzzuza: not as-isFeb 28 00:02
zuzaIf it is, what makes it possible.Feb 28 00:02
schestowitzYou could use it and sell the whole package with the GPL parts compliant.Feb 28 00:03
schestowitzLike TomTom..Feb 28 00:03
*zuza not sure if he understands "as is"Feb 28 00:03
schestowitzzuza: YaST was there in SuSEFeb 28 00:03
zuzayes, there wasFeb 28 00:04
schestowitzEven 8.1 had it.. did they have 'editions'?Feb 28 00:04
schestowitzI'm not sure.Feb 28 00:04
schestowitzHow the boxed/d/l differedFeb 28 00:04
schestowitzWe had installed on many machines from the same boxFeb 28 00:04
schestowitz8.1Feb 28 00:04
zuzaIt was like this: no EULA to download, with EULA stuff (YaST) in boxesFeb 28 00:04
schestowitzThen 9.2Feb 28 00:04
schestowitzzuza: I don't know well enough, I guessFeb 28 00:05
schestowitzI still have some   OpenSUSE CDs here... DVDs actually..Feb 28 00:05
*zuza has a couple of boxes ;-)Feb 28 00:05
zuzaanyway, it is not the history important, but that mixing it and selling it as a whole productFeb 28 00:06
schestowitzThe CDs are not for ritual purposes though, unlike with SCO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?...Feb 28 00:08
zuza(I think what you call "editions" occured with 9.x only, there was "Personal" - 1 CD GPL only, and "professional" books, gpl, non-gpl, etc.)Feb 28 00:08
schestowitzic ...Feb 28 00:09
schestowitzpost novlFeb 28 00:09
schestowitzsee http://www.novell.com/prblogs/?p=542Feb 28 00:13
schestowitzIs it just me or are many Novell pages loading up in Japanese?Feb 28 00:13
schestowitzhttp://www.novell.com  << why am I getting the site in Japanese??Feb 28 00:14
schestowitzOddd... NOVL's site redirects me always to the Japanese versions :-o since about a week agoFeb 28 00:16
Balrogschestowitz: are you using a japanese proxy or something?Feb 28 00:16
schestowitzNo, I don;t.Feb 28 00:17
Balrogor are they messing with your IP? (don't see why they would be)Feb 28 00:17
schestowitzIt has been like this for about a weekFeb 28 00:17
Balrogwell it works for meFeb 28 00:17
Balrogclear your cookies from novell.comFeb 28 00:17
schestowitzIt's fine elsewhere: http://browsershots.org/http://www....Feb 28 00:17
Balrogor better, clear allFeb 28 00:17
Balrogmaybe it's a messed up region cookieFeb 28 00:17
schestowitzCLearing the cookie did itFeb 28 00:19
schestowitzBut I don't know why it changed to begin withFeb 28 00:19
Balroglooks like the commenting on that article quieted down (I made it clear that I wasn't complaining about the software but about the attitudes of the group ... though the software may suck anyway)Feb 28 00:19
Balrogor some members of the group btw *Feb 28 00:19
Balrogdid you see this?Feb 28 00:20
Balroghttp://slashdot.org/article.p...Feb 28 00:20
schestowitzhttp://techdirt.com/article...Feb 28 00:20
BalrogyeahFeb 28 00:21
schestowitzCompyrights cartel is a diseaseFeb 28 00:21
Balrogthough it's actually from slateFeb 28 00:21
Balrog(the slashdot one)Feb 28 00:21
schestowitzI read techDirt but haven't reached it yet (today)Feb 28 00:21
schestowitzSlate is a MS siteFeb 28 00:21
schestowitzSold to Melinda gatesismFeb 28 00:21
zuzaOk, thanks for chat.Feb 28 00:26
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schestowitzFF3.1 delay: http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.pla...Feb 28 00:56
PetoKraushmmFeb 28 01:04
PetoKrauscareful, non-kde-4 approachFeb 28 01:04
PetoKraus:DFeb 28 01:04
PetoKrausgnFeb 28 01:05
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schestowitzYeah, I know..Feb 28 01:06
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schestowitzThis one's bound to piss off some people: Why [New] Linux Users Should Try Ubuntu First < http://codingexperiments.com/why-li... >Feb 28 01:17
Balrogumm what about linux mint, and the distros designed for new users?Feb 28 01:18
schestowitzHowto block DDOS attacks on Ubuntu < http://blogama.org/node/98 >Feb 28 01:18
schestowitzBalrog: they get ignoredFeb 28 01:18
Balrogand what about KDE4.2, which is much nicer than gnome ....Feb 28 01:19
schestowitzCanonical is also enforcing its "buntu" trademarks by asking projects to change their namesFeb 28 01:19
BalrogI think I heard of thatFeb 28 01:19
schestowitzBalrog: I think I'll use Fedora 11 nextFeb 28 01:19
Balrogmuch like Firefox vs. IceweaselFeb 28 01:20
schestowitzMaybe BLAGFeb 28 01:20
BalrogFedora 11 is not yet stableFeb 28 01:20
Balrogit's in alphaFeb 28 01:20
schestowitzNew headline: How to Kill a Running Process in Ubuntu (or any Linux distro) http://www.yeree.com/nw/002/index.p...Feb 28 01:20
BalrogsimpleFeb 28 01:20
schestowitzThis is wrong because they view it as "Ubuntu" (and "that other thing")Feb 28 01:21
Balrogkillall <process-name>Feb 28 01:21
schestowitzin Ubuntu?Feb 28 01:21
schestowitzOr GNU?Feb 28 01:21
Balrogany linuxFeb 28 01:21
Balrogor you can 'ps aux | grep <process-name>' and 'kill process-id'Feb 28 01:21
Balrogin solaris that's 'ps -ef'Feb 28 01:21
schestowitzHowto Play Music And Video In Fedora 10 < http://debaira.blogspot.com/2009/02/howto-... >Feb 28 01:22
Balrogthat's more specificFeb 28 01:23
schestowitzInterestngly, Mandriva does not have ALT+CTRL+ESCFeb 28 01:23
Balrogfew doFeb 28 01:23
schestowitzIt's rarely needed for processes to be killed thoughFeb 28 01:23
Balrogmany have ctrl-alt-F1 thoughFeb 28 01:23
schestowitzVanilla KDE has it (e.g. in Ubuntu)Feb 28 01:23
BalrogI believe all linux, for that matterFeb 28 01:23
Balrogwell you'd have to use Kubuntu for thatFeb 28 01:24
Balrog(or install it yourself, as I did with fedora :/ )Feb 28 01:24
schestowitzI don't understand these: http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/27801...Feb 28 01:24
schestowitzSome stupid proprietary software is piggybacking Ubuntu hypeFeb 28 01:25
schestowitzThey make hype out of nothing.. because it /can/ run on Ubuntu (Windows also)Feb 28 01:25
schestowitzWow! Major breaking news: http://mdzlog.wordpress.com/2009/02/26... Feb 28 01:25
Balrogschestowitz: how do you feel about the closed-source nvidia drivers?Feb 28 01:26
schestowitzSo many comments tooFeb 28 01:26
schestowitzBalrog: I use them nowFeb 28 01:26
schestowitzThey come with MandrivaFeb 28 01:26
Balrogbut about them being closed source ....?Feb 28 01:26
schestowitzMandriva also comes with FlashFeb 28 01:27
BalroghehFeb 28 01:27
schestowitzDebian comes with the open substitutesFeb 28 01:27
Balrogflash is so common :(Feb 28 01:27
schestowitzWhen I set up this machines dual-head OSS driver was only comingFeb 28 01:27
schestowitzgnash and swfdec (??) is also quite mature now.Feb 28 01:27
BalrogThe problem is, the open substitute for the nvidia driver has obfuscated code and really sucksFeb 28 01:27
Balrog(nv(Feb 28 01:27
Balrog(nv)*Feb 28 01:27
Balrogeven on older hardwareFeb 28 01:28
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schestowitzMandriva makes it too easy to leave it convenientFeb 28 01:28
schestowitzThis is why it ain't so good... Mint likewiseFeb 28 01:28
schestowitzIf people chooses blobs, they ought to make some effortFeb 28 01:28
schestowitzAnd be taught about the free stuff. Better yet -- have it PREINSTALLED.Feb 28 01:28
schestowitzWith Flash installed it feels like cheating.Feb 28 01:29
schestowitzPeople pushed me into installing Skype too after many years of refusing.Feb 28 01:29
schestowitzI tried to push them to EkigaFeb 28 01:30
Balroghm. Well at least nvidia's blobs work. unlike nv, which is partially free imo (obfuscated code)Feb 28 01:30
schestowitzBut the Windows client is not mature (not for me, for them)Feb 28 01:30
Balrogskype works. the TOS is annoying, but it worksFeb 28 01:30
schestowitzThe FSF works on a 'high priority ' subsFeb 28 01:32
Balrogexplain.Feb 28 01:32
schestowitzIssue is virility (other people use their own wares)Feb 28 01:33
BalrogI see...Feb 28 01:33
schestowitzhttp://www.fsf.org/campaigns/...Feb 28 01:33
benJImanEkiga just uses SIP. There are hundreds of clients for different platforms.Feb 28 01:33
benJImanI use a hardware SIP phone.Feb 28 01:33
schestowitz http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/prior... : Free software replacement for SkypeFeb 28 01:33
Balrogwell Skype is well encryptedFeb 28 01:33
benJImanBalrog: AhahahahahaFeb 28 01:34
schestowitzEU got off their bacFeb 28 01:34
schestowitzBackFeb 28 01:34
Balrogthough yes, I heard about thatFeb 28 01:34
schestowitzMoody reckons they found an eavesdropping methodFeb 28 01:34
Balrogso we don't know how long it will be soFeb 28 01:34
benJImanBalrog: So you're going to trust a blob that you know nothing about to encrypt/decrypt your traffic, when you do know that it phones home to skype servers and has the capability to send them the decrypted data?Feb 28 01:34
BalrogI don't use it, myselfFeb 28 01:34
BalrogI use Pidgin and Adium with OTR encrption (www.cypherpunks.ca/otr/)Feb 28 01:35
Balrogtext only for me :)Feb 28 01:35
schestowitzHmmmmm...... http://greentechgirl.com/open-sou...Feb 28 01:39
schestowitzShe couldn't get Flash on Mint? it's already there, no? Tough luck...Feb 28 01:40
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schestowitzhttp://www.itwire.com/conten...Feb 28 04:51
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mib_gr0w3sohFeb 28 04:54
mib_gr0w3sanybody here ?Feb 28 04:55
schestowitzYesFeb 28 04:56
schestowitzWhat's' up?Feb 28 04:56
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schestowitzhttp://news.zdnet.com/2424-95... (Sony reorganizes as president steps down)Feb 28 05:07
schestowitzSpam King Back in News Thanks to Facebook http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/02/27/s...Feb 28 05:12
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schestowitzCisco lays off 250 in first wave of cuts < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/0... >Feb 28 10:47
schestowitzWall Street Beat: Tech Forecasts Down Amid Market Tumult < http://www.pcworld.com/article/160333/wall_street_... >Feb 28 10:47
schestowitzIs that Linux at the bottom photo? http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/02/2...Feb 28 10:53
*amarsh04 clicksFeb 28 11:01
amarsh04not sure on that oneFeb 28 11:02
oiaohmhttp://www.xfce.org/images/abou...  I really suspect that laptop is running xfce.  I cannot be 100 percent sure becuase I am not perfectly sure if the first icon on the bar is a black mouse.Feb 28 11:15
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oiaohmxfce runs on linux bsd solaris basically anything running X11.  So cannot say it Linux.Feb 28 11:18
oiaohmThis is the problem with Linux people say show me a screen shot of lInux to be sure you have to have a distribution logo displayed.Feb 28 11:20
schestowitzhttp://techdirt.com/articles/20090226/1232003915.shtml Looks Like Australia's Plan To Censor The Internet Is Dead... Again... For NowFeb 28 11:39
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oiaohmMost likely they will wait until 2 am and push it threw then schestowitzFeb 28 12:18
schestowitzMaybe. They have "come this far"Feb 28 12:19
amarsh04abc news report on .au internet filtering is here: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/200...Feb 28 12:20
oiaohmhttp://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2009/02...  Let the cross breeding begin.Feb 28 12:24
MinceRgeekingsFeb 28 13:35
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seller_liarfhey royFeb 28 13:36
seller_liarfcan you give some link about melinda gates foundation fraud?Feb 28 13:36
seller_liarfI'm posting in another site and a m$ guard is attackingFeb 28 13:36
seller_liarfsomeone?Feb 28 13:38
schestowitzHeyFeb 28 13:39
MinceRfor lack of a better idea, http://eu.ixquick.com/do/metasear...Feb 28 13:39
schestowitzJust Melinda?Feb 28 13:39
*MinceR shrugsFeb 28 13:39
MinceRit seemed enough :)Feb 28 13:39
schestowitzNever trust the French?Feb 28 13:40
schestowitzAs in "Melinda French"?Feb 28 13:40
seller_liarfschestowitz: I need to know about bill african farmaco fraudFeb 28 13:40
seller_liarfschestowitz: and taxes evasionFeb 28 13:40
seller_liarfschestowitz: BN have links , but I don t remember where I findFeb 28 13:41
seller_liarfschestowitz: and posts tooFeb 28 13:41
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/31/bm...Feb 28 13:41
seller_liarfthanks mincer and royFeb 28 13:42
schestowitzSome on tax evasion: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/02/...Feb 28 13:42
MinceRnpFeb 28 13:42
schestowitzAfrica scam: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/14/...Feb 28 13:42
oiaohmhttp://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/colu...Feb 28 14:08
schestowitzNice, I saw thatFeb 28 14:10
oiaohmIts trueFeb 28 14:10
amarsh04I like the bizarre cathedral... they should sell small Debian dogsFeb 28 14:10
oiaohmThey do get kinda annoyed.Feb 28 14:10
oiaohmwhen you point out that the router is Linux particularly when they say they have no Linux.Feb 28 14:11
schestowitzThey fear the unknownFeb 28 14:11
oiaohmLinux the OS that is everywhere an nowhere at exactly the same time.Feb 28 14:12
oiaohman/andFeb 28 14:12
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schestowitzBehind the public looting: Weekly Radio Spin: Obama's Lobbying Stimulus < http://www.prwatch.org/node/8244 >Feb 28 14:26
schestowitzI hope that Novell's executives will undo their mistakes (maybe split the company). They are too important to lose, especially the open source component that Novell gradually sheds off. I'm glad to see Mandriva employees being picked up by Red Hat and it would be sweet revenge if Red Hat scooped SUSE's people too.Feb 28 15:02
schestowitzBack in 2006, shortly after the deal had been signed and before BN was even conceived I politely protested and asked SUSE to reconsider (many of us did). One Red Hat engineer contacted me off list and we both agreed that Novell should have ganged up with Red Hat (against Windows), but Novell thinks like a proprietary software company. Jaffe and Hovsepian came from IBM.Feb 28 15:03
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schestowitzThey grew up with a patent portfolio in their hands and silver spoons (budgets) in their mouths. Jaffe came from a research background and he too laid the foundations for all this. Red Hat bargained based on Microsoft's interests, which exclude the use of a dusty UNIX/Netware portfolio. Novell was bamboozled and it set up a path for Microsoft to claim that its patents must be honoured (based on precedence). Feb 28 15:03
schestowitzI've discovered that Red Hat might employ SUSE developer who got sacked.Feb 28 15:04
schestowitzBecause Novell was foolish enough to do this deal secretly, it was unable to foresee the ramifications. It could actually kill itself by firing SUSE employees, who will just WORK ON FEDORA or Ubuntu instead.Feb 28 15:05
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mib_5bb8ulhelpFeb 28 15:26
mib_5bb8ulneed a copy of xandros for eee901Feb 28 15:27
mib_5bb8uliso fileFeb 28 15:27
mib_5bb8ulany help?Feb 28 15:27
mib_5bb8uli have mis-placed mineFeb 28 15:27
schestowitzHeyFeb 28 15:27
schestowitzHave you tried their site?Feb 28 15:27
schestowitzI think it's downloadableFeb 28 15:28
mib_5bb8ulhelp meFeb 28 15:28
schestowitzBetter yet --- put another distro on it, one that's betterFeb 28 15:28
mib_5bb8ulits for someone who has got use to xandrosFeb 28 15:28
mib_5bb8ulnever used other osFeb 28 15:29
mib_5bb8ulwhats a distro?Feb 28 15:29
schestowitzIt's one among many 'flavours' of LinuxFeb 28 15:29
schestowitzThere are other options that are similarFeb 28 15:29
schestowitzUse this one: http://wiki.eeeuser.com/mandiv...Feb 28 15:30
schestowitzThat's the one I use on my PC. It should work well on Eee PCs too.Feb 28 15:31
schestowitzThere is also this one: http://www.geteasypeasy.com/Feb 28 15:33
mib_5bb8ulwhere is iso? for Mandreeeva?Feb 28 15:35
mib_5bb8uli am sorry for being stuopidFeb 28 15:35
schestowitzHold on.Feb 28 15:37
schestowitzHere: http://wiki.eeeuser.com/mandriva_20...Feb 28 15:37
mib_5bb8ulseems complicated for meFeb 28 15:40
mib_5bb8uljust want a eee version of  xandrosFeb 28 15:41
mib_5bb8ulThe classic version what Asus shipFeb 28 15:42
schestowitzLet me lookFeb 28 15:42
mib_5bb8ullike i said its only for some who got use to the systemFeb 28 15:42
schestowitzDo you do torrent? http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4366...Feb 28 15:43
mib_5bb8ulwill this work for 901?Feb 28 15:43
mib_5bb8ulis there a direct link?Feb 28 15:45
schestowitzHmm. http://usa.asus.com/products.aspx?modelmen...Feb 28 15:45
schestowitzI don't know. But if you can't find the CD, then you might want to use another distro or re-order the CDFeb 28 15:45
mib_5bb8ulare they all standard?Feb 28 15:46
mib_5bb8ulcarry all drivers?Feb 28 15:47
mib_5bb8ulaccross the full ee range?Feb 28 15:47
schestowitzI can't tell for sure. Have you googled for answers on that one?Feb 28 15:48
mib_5bb8ulcan't find any os iso thereFeb 28 15:54
schestowitzLet me see..Feb 28 15:55
schestowitzhttp://thepiratebay.org/torrent/434...Feb 28 15:56
schestowitzThis one is in French: http://www.onlytorrents.com/torrent/ee...Feb 28 15:58
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mib_vj5ruostill can't find xandros for asusFeb 28 16:07
mib_vj5ruothats easypcFeb 28 16:07
schestowitzHave you tried Ubuntu easy peasyFeb 28 16:08
schestowitzIt's said to be betterFeb 28 16:08
schestowitzSome people wipe Xandros to have it (it's a Ubuntu variant)Feb 28 16:08
schestowitzShould be simple to install tooFeb 28 16:08
mib_vj5ruoi have intalled that but wifi is an issueFeb 28 16:08
schestowitzThere are like 10 distributions for Eee PCFeb 28 16:08
mib_vj5ruo?Feb 28 16:09
mib_vj5ruoit was my mistake in installing xpFeb 28 16:10
mib_vj5ruocost me 80 poundsFeb 28 16:10
mib_vj5ruobut the system is very unstableFeb 28 16:11
mib_vj5ruokeeps coming with too many errorsFeb 28 16:11
schestowitzGet a refund for XPFeb 28 16:11
mib_vj5ruoand have mis-placed dvd -xandrosFeb 28 16:11
schestowitzIf you canFeb 28 16:11
schestowitzI'm trying to find list of distros you can useFeb 28 16:12
schestowitzThere are about 10 of them.Feb 28 16:12
mib_vj5ruoMicrosoft is no goodFeb 28 16:12
schestowitzhttp://www.linux.com/feature/131070Feb 28 16:12
schestowitzhttp://wiki.eeeuser.com/howto:eeedoraFeb 28 16:13
mib_vj5ruospiffy operatingFeb 28 16:14
mib_vj5ruothats what i wantFeb 28 16:16
mib_vj5ruolarge icon based osFeb 28 16:17
schestowitzThere's Linpus tooFeb 28 16:18
schestowitzSearch YouTube for "Linpus Eee"Feb 28 16:18
schestowitzLinpus runs by default on Acer netbooksFeb 28 16:18
mib_vj5ruohttp://www.linux.com/feature/124240Feb 28 16:18
schestowitzIt's based on FedoraFeb 28 16:18
mib_vj5ruowhere can i get thisFeb 28 16:18
schestowitzhttp://isohunt.com/torrents.php...Feb 28 16:20
schestowitzhttp://www.nowtors.com/torrents/eee...Feb 28 16:20
mib_vj5ruotried all of themFeb 28 16:25
mib_vj5ruothe rsults r sameFeb 28 16:25
mib_vj5ruoeasypc 1Feb 28 16:25
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mib_8e53instill can't find itFeb 28 16:27
mib_8e53inits downloding easypc1Feb 28 16:28
mib_8e53inis that he Eee PC comes preloaded with a spiffy operating system based on Xandros Linux and running KDEFeb 28 16:29
mib_8e53in?Feb 28 16:29
mib_8e53inneed a copy of xandrosFeb 28 16:30
mib_8e53inspiffy operatingFeb 28 16:30
schestowitzHmmm..Feb 28 16:31
schestowitzDo they not ship replacement CDs?Feb 28 16:32
mib_8e53ini have this product more than a yearFeb 28 16:39
mib_8e53inmay be i should buy one identical asus, copy it on my flsh drive and return itFeb 28 16:41
mib_8e53inthen upload it on the internetFeb 28 16:41
schestowitzThat would explain "high return rates"Feb 28 16:41
schestowitzI'ms sure you can just download it if you look long enough.Feb 28 16:42
mib_8e53inwhat can i do the system is dead as a duck or "duff"Feb 28 16:42
schestowitzOr find someone who has the CDFeb 28 16:42
mib_8e53ininternet is a wide zone and nothing simple is availableFeb 28 16:43
amarsh04there must be some user forums for the eee where someone could offer to help you through a recovery process for the machineFeb 28 16:48
mib_8e53inall i need is the iso fileFeb 28 16:50
mib_8e53inwifi is the biggest issueFeb 28 16:51
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schestowitzmib_8e53in: maybe someone who has an Eee can send it to youFeb 28 16:52
schestowitzHe's goneFeb 28 16:52
*schestowitz not sure about #BN becoming a tech support channel anywayFeb 28 16:52
amarsh04you gave more help than most would, schestowitzFeb 28 16:57
schestowitzI liked the part where he said he had paid 80 pounds (about 120 US dollars) for XP, which turned out to be rubbish.Feb 28 17:00
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schestowitzbblFeb 28 17:17
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MrMidlandTuna Face how are you?Feb 28 19:01
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MrMidlandYou there Roy?Feb 28 19:03
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schestowitz:-D This one looks like it is *obligatory* for the whole public sector touse only FOSS: http://www.jhs-suositukset.fi/suomi/jhs169Feb 28 19:56
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schestowitzSupport a green recovery for Europe < http://cdn.avaaz.org/en/gr... >Feb 28 21:24
schestowitzObama Justice Department Misses Opportunity for Transparency < http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/200... >. Publicity stunt: In the war: A residual U.S. force will remain in Iraq < http://www.newsday.com/news/nation... >. So occupation essentially continues.Feb 28 21:25
schestowitzJeff Flake is right < http://www.lessig.org/blog/200... > "But of course, one simple solution to this "problem" with earmarks would be to remove the corrupting connection -- to campaign finance. And the simplest way to do that would be to follow Teddy Roosevelt's other fantastic idea from 100 years ago -- Citizen Funded Elections."Feb 28 21:27
schestowitznFeb 28 21:32
trmancohttp://gtk.php.net/ - wow, didn't know that this existedFeb 28 21:50
schestowitzme neitherFeb 28 21:51
schestowitzoh wait.Feb 28 21:51
schestowitzI thought it red php.gtk.org :-)Feb 28 21:52
schestowitz*readFeb 28 21:52
*schestowitz started using FF3 a week ago. It's a fantastic upgrade.Feb 28 21:53
trmancowowFeb 28 21:54
schestowitzDid you install Vista?Feb 28 21:54
trmancow00t?Feb 28 21:54
schestowitzWhat was wow @?Feb 28 21:55
trmancothe php gtk thingyFeb 28 21:55
trmancoit looked pretty easyFeb 28 21:55
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trmancoat least more eye catching then C++ GTK bindingFeb 28 21:55
trmancobindings*Feb 28 21:56
trmancoschestowitz, you should try FF 3.1, FF 3.0 is getting oldFeb 28 21:56
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schestowitztrmanco: I thought about it. Will wait for "stable"Feb 28 21:57
trmancome tooFeb 28 21:58
schestowitzsame with Thunderbird which also keeps data in tact.Feb 28 21:58
schestowitzI miss doing Comes docs (will do some later this year). It's safe to come come to the conclusion that corporations can only be pressured for their mistakes if we identify people -- not brand names -- who are to blame for these unethical actions. I suppose you saw ACT/Zuck getting exposed earlier. That was fun.Feb 28 21:58
schestowitzBN helps even /me/ organise my thoughts and references that 'profile' Microsoft lackeys (shills). I've been explaining (or trying to explain) before that the convenience of linking by POST_ID is the reason many links are internal. It would take a long time to pull the external ones if many are included in posts, whereas with POST_IDs it takes just seconds. Internal links are based on multiple external ones (supportive evidence).Feb 28 21:59
schestowitzHeh. Google the term "ron hovsepian"Feb 28 22:03
schestowitztwitter: the press keeps dying: Good-Bye Computer Shopper < http://blogs.computerworld.com/good_by... >Feb 28 22:07
schestowitzTweet hackers reopen Twitter vuln http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/2...Feb 28 22:15
schestowitzYahoo Remodels the House Jerry and Terry Built < http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/adverti... >. Yahoo will hopefully not collude with the Vole.Feb 28 22:19
BalroghehFeb 28 22:20
Balrog""The truth of the matter is all the consumer market mojo is with Apple and to a lesser extent BlackBerry," Ballmer said. "And yet, the real market momentum with operators and the real market momentum with device manufacturers seems to primarily be with Windows Mobile and Android." "Feb 28 22:20
Balrog--arstechnicaFeb 28 22:20
Balrogwho's MS selling to? "operators" and "device manufacturers"Feb 28 22:20
BalrogWM7 sucks, I hear, anywayFeb 28 22:20
trmancohttp://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp... looks like it is not Gentoo's problemFeb 28 22:20
BalroghehFeb 28 22:21
trmancoping balzacFeb 28 22:21
Balrogthe gentoo people said that ... also it didn't appear to be Gentoo's problemFeb 28 22:21
Balrog(gentoo people said that it was likely a bug in Mono)Feb 28 22:21
schestowitzI saw another issue with Gentoo/Mono. Let me find it if I can.Feb 28 22:22
Balrogok.Feb 28 22:23
schestowitzOK< got it: http://groups.google.com/group/com...Feb 28 22:23
Balrogsome of Omni Group's apps are free now, not FOSS but freeFeb 28 22:23
schestowitzScroll down to Terry's message. Terry Porter is an ardent Gentoo supporter.Feb 28 22:23
schestowitzFull discussion @ http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux...Feb 28 22:24
schestowitzIgnore disruptors like "Miguel"Feb 28 22:24
trmanco.NET failFeb 28 22:25
Balrogheh ... well it is a released ebuild now, but there's a significant difference between the released ebuild and the beta ebuild: the ffmpeg use flag is gone.Feb 28 22:26
Balrogyou can't turn off ffmpeg linkingFeb 28 22:26
Balrog(in the released ebuild)Feb 28 22:26
schestowitzBergelt said, "The OIN, Software Freedom Law Center, and the Linux Foundation are unified in our view that it is an act of provocation. The people concerned about patent issues around open source are firmly allied and prepared to support TomTom." http://www.linuxdevices.com/news...Feb 28 22:26
schestowitzHere's a question:Feb 28 22:27
schestowitzIf this total garbage is all boiling down to codecsFeb 28 22:27
schestowitzThen what the heck not just encourage Ogg and THML5?Feb 28 22:27
BalrogCodecs are a problem, but it's not only codecs.Feb 28 22:27
schestowitzWhat Novell does it like Red Hat promoting Flash.Feb 28 22:28
schestowitzBalrog: Moonlight is needed for nothing but some silly videos to streamFeb 28 22:28
schestowitzMoonlight/Silver Lie is mostly a container for Web videoFeb 28 22:28
Balrogand some web appsFeb 28 22:28
schestowitzBalrog: not many that are crucialFeb 28 22:28
Balrogyes, true. But then why does it work with ffmpeg?Feb 28 22:28
schestowitzI never find anything even in Flash that's crucialFeb 28 22:29
Balrogif you can link to ffmpeg, there should be no codec problems.Feb 28 22:29
schestowitzBouncing objects are not Web formsFeb 28 22:29
schestowitzThe important stuff is typically Flash-free is the Web dev is saneFeb 28 22:29
Balrogbut they tell people you can't distribute an ffmpeg-linked copyFeb 28 22:29
schestowitzNovell's site is FILLED with FlashFeb 28 22:29
schestowitzThe SUSE people never liked itFeb 28 22:29
schestowitzThey think one way, Novell think another wayFeb 28 22:29
Balrogunfortunately, flash is so ubiquitous :(Feb 28 22:30
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/...Feb 28 22:30
BalrogI use clicktoflash hereFeb 28 22:30
schestowitzJust posted this an hour ago. Scrool down to where Novell admits it's not a FOSS company when it comes to SUSE.Feb 28 22:30
Balrog(like flashblock)Feb 28 22:30
BalroghehFeb 28 22:31
Balrogwasn't SUSE purchased from someone? (i.e. not Novell's own product originally)Feb 28 22:32
Balrogschestowitz: I've seen winforms-style stuff in Moonlight contentFeb 28 22:32
schestowitzThat sounds reasonable.Feb 28 22:33
BalroghehFeb 28 22:34
Balrogit came from slackwareFeb 28 22:34
Balroghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUSEFeb 28 22:34
Balrognovell got it in Nov. 2003Feb 28 22:34
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Forms "As of 13 May 2008, Mono's System.Windows.Forms 2.0 is API complete (contains 100% of classes, methods etc. in Microsoft's System.Windows.Forms 2.0); also System.Windows.Forms 2.0 works natively on Mac OS X."Feb 28 22:35
Balrogyes I know. .NET 3.0 isn't in Mono btwFeb 28 22:36
trmancohttp://fullcirclemagazine.org/issue-22/Feb 28 22:36
Balrogand Silverlight 2.0 uses itFeb 28 22:36
trmancoyetFeb 28 22:36
Balrogheh ... it's in the svn tree, that's why I was trying to build svn (very very hard)Feb 28 22:36
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F... Was he even in contact with SUSE?Feb 28 22:37
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schestowitzThe tomtom suit puts FAT under need for possible replacementFeb 28 22:38
schestowitzImagine having to replace monoFeb 28 22:38
schestowitzAPPS depend on it, thus the dangerFeb 28 22:38
Balrogthe only thing mono is good for is code already written in C# ... but C# is relatively new anywayFeb 28 22:39
schestowitzI wrote about this here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008...Feb 28 22:39
BalrogI don't see any use to write new code in C#Feb 28 22:39
schestowitzNovell dosFeb 28 22:39
Balrog(or that relies on Mono)Feb 28 22:39
schestowitz*does (because its ally does)Feb 28 22:39
Balrogthe compatibility part is useful though at timesFeb 28 22:39
Balrogbut if people didn't use it, we wouldn't need thatFeb 28 22:40
schestowitzdotgnu gave some compatibilityFeb 28 22:40
schestowitzstill, mono is excuse for "you steal out IP"-type attackFeb 28 22:40
schestowitzNovell is not worriedFeb 28 22:40
schestowitzIt's protected for a while.Feb 28 22:40
schestowitz_a while___...Feb 28 22:41
Balrogsimple. Don't include it with LinuxFeb 28 22:41
schestowitzNovell only..Feb 28 22:41
schestowitzBalrog: tell that to Mark Shuttleworth and othersFeb 28 22:41
schestowitzHeads in sandFeb 28 22:41
Balrogif people want to install it, they are liable, and they should know full well of the dangersFeb 28 22:41
BalroghehFeb 28 22:41
BalrogFedora doesn't have it ... neither Debian (I hear)Feb 28 22:41
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/02/22/mar...Feb 28 22:41
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schestowitztrmanco: got wine? http://www.winehq.org/announce/1.1.16Feb 28 22:43
BalrogMono should not be part of the core Linux system anyway. Rather a compatibility thingFeb 28 22:43
trmancoschestowitz, yesFeb 28 22:43
Balrogand not forced on peopleFeb 28 22:44
trmancosaw it this morningFeb 28 22:44
schestowitzBalrog: +1Feb 28 22:44
schestowitzBTW: Debian and MEPIS based on Debian) receive perfect reviews..  http://preacherpen.wordpress.com/2... This is important to GNU/Linux... Debian is the core of a lot of development (many key packages)Feb 28 22:45
Balrogeven Java isn't a core component of LinuxFeb 28 22:45
Balrogand it's FOSSFeb 28 22:45
schestowitzIt might beFeb 28 22:45
schestowitzFedora and Ubuntu might have it soon.Feb 28 22:45
schestowitzI can find you the links..Feb 28 22:45
Balrogwhy core? aren't there better ways to do things?Feb 28 22:45
schestowitztessier_ hates itFeb 28 22:46
BalrogIncluding Java is fine, but I should be able to tear it out and the system should still work fineFeb 28 22:46
schestowitzStudy: Java still top programming language < http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-... >Feb 28 22:46
schestowitzLet Java be in there just to suppress the Microsoft boostersFeb 28 22:46
Balrogof course it is. That's what they teach at the university I go thereFeb 28 22:46
BalrogI go to *Feb 28 22:46
schestowitzThe last think we need in a company that's suing Linux on our LIVE CDsFeb 28 22:47
Balrogbut it shouldn't be *core*, meaning something that core system software relies onFeb 28 22:47
schestowitzBalrog: I know. If you leave the MS boosters without 'babysitting', then they'll tell lies about Java being dead/dyingFeb 28 22:48
BalrogJava is nowhere near deadFeb 28 22:48
schestowitzI get those comments from MS fans in BN as well. They damage Java's repuattion for mindshareFeb 28 22:48
BalrogJava is probably the most used language aroundFeb 28 22:48
schestowitzMS: "Mind Control: To control mental output you have to control mental input.  Take control of the channels by which developers receive information, then they can only think about the things you tell them.  Thus, you control mindshare!" http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/...Feb 28 22:48
Balrogalso it's truly cross platformFeb 28 22:48
schestowitzMicrosoft tried to change thisFeb 28 22:49
Balrogyes, I rememberFeb 28 22:49
Balrogthe MS JREFeb 28 22:49
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/wiki/inde...Feb 28 22:49
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Balrogthere was at least one app that I had that required it (and wouldn't work with the Sun JRE)Feb 28 22:50
schestowitzI'll do some posts about that by the end of the eyarFeb 28 22:50
schestowitzCOOL! Massive Layoffs Hit The RIAA: Maybe Focus On Building Business Rather Than Suing Customers Next Time? < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090... >Feb 28 22:52
schestowitzhttp://radar.oreilly.com/2009/02/sta... How good this is as a reflectant on use, who knows? Sales of books != use.Feb 28 22:59
BalroghehFeb 28 23:00
Balrognot surprisingFeb 28 23:00
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Balrogheh ... C# is 1%Feb 28 23:05
Balrog(growth)Feb 28 23:05
Balrogbut "C# is now the largest programming language for all book sales, and that was the case for all of 2008"Feb 28 23:06
schestowitzI look forward to seeing how this works out < http://blogs.computerworld.com/red... >. I've just left a question in the blog of IBM's Linux chief. They sell Open Client with RHEl.Feb 28 23:06
schestowitzBalrog: /all/ books?Feb 28 23:07
schestowitzOr just ORLY books?Feb 28 23:07
BalrogORLY I thinkFeb 28 23:07
schestowitzIf ORLY et al publish more #c books (and they took MS employees), then..Feb 28 23:07
BalrogI think many people are using Safari Books Online more and moreFeb 28 23:07
schestowitzThey took Brady Forrest (??) into ORLY Radar... he worked for Microsoft beforehand.Feb 28 23:08
BalroghehFeb 28 23:08
schestowitzI wrote in the past about the MSFTisation of ORLY.Feb 28 23:08
BalrogI see. But don't they still have many good books?Feb 28 23:08
schestowitzHey, Tim, I'm getting the sense that Microsoft's influence on you is increasing.Feb 28 23:09
schestowitzTim: http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/orly.jpegFeb 28 23:09
schestowitzBalrog: yes, but it depends what they coverFeb 28 23:09
Balrogyeah.Feb 28 23:10
schestowitzIt smacks of fake surveys... like checking BN logs for OS usageFeb 28 23:10
schestowitzOr checking ENGLISH-ONLY books for P/LsFeb 28 23:10
Balrogwell safari books online allows the subscriber to read any book from ORLYFeb 28 23:10
schestowitzbear in mind that US and UK are in bed with MSFeb 28 23:10
BalrogonlineFeb 28 23:10
schestowitzCheck books on German.. see how many use MS techFeb 28 23:10
schestowitzEnglish is always biased in MS' favourFeb 28 23:10
schestowitzAlso log usage.. Don't. Check. Only. US sites.Feb 28 23:11
Balrogand many university libraries (including the one I go to) has a subscriptionFeb 28 23:11
schestowitzUS is one of the worst in terms of Linux adoption, but people at Apple and MS conveniently ingore thisFeb 28 23:11
schestowitzApple ignored the fact that like 150 of the world's nation know nothing about Apple and have no Apple products (or stores)Feb 28 23:11
schestowitz*nationsFeb 28 23:12
Balroginteresting that MS doesn't have an official .NET-style runtime for MacFeb 28 23:12
Balroginstead you use Mono for that (which isn't well supported)Feb 28 23:12
Balrogand a Mono-compiled program is a .exe by the wayFeb 28 23:14
schestowitz'Real' programmers will flock to the 'real thing' (Windows)Feb 28 23:16
schestowitzThat's the idea.Feb 28 23:16
schestowitzMake Windows premiumFeb 28 23:16
schestowitzMake devs on other platforms feel like suckers. And don't tell them about the "J" wordFeb 28 23:16
Balrog18:19 < Balrog> instead you use Mono for that (which isn't well supported)Feb 28 23:18
Balrog18:21 < Balrog> and a Mono-compiled program is a .exe by the wayFeb 28 23:18
Balrog18:22 <@schestowitz> 'Real' programmers will flock to the 'real thing' (Windows)Feb 28 23:18
Balrog18:22 <@schestowitz> That's the idea.Feb 28 23:18
MinceRit's an .exe because adding a new file type to the OS to handle is a task that's too great and difficult for m$ "developers"Feb 28 23:18
Balrogthose aren't 'real programmers'Feb 28 23:18
BalrogI find the best software is usually platform-independent, with a bit of OS-specific code for GUIFeb 28 23:19
MinceRi find the best software is platform-independent, with toolkit-specific (and OS-independent) code for GUIFeb 28 23:20
Balrogthat works for LinuxFeb 28 23:20
MinceRand it runs under windowsFeb 28 23:21
MinceRwhich is all one can ask forFeb 28 23:21
Balrogwith Mac, you really need to have some Cocoa code for a really great prograFeb 28 23:21
Balrogprogram ***Feb 28 23:21
Balrogsee AdiumFeb 28 23:21
Balrogor TransmissionFeb 28 23:21
MinceRthat's because the mac gui is a retarded, stupid pile of crapFeb 28 23:21
BalrogI disagree. But that's what I thinkFeb 28 23:21
MinceRand even then, qt and gtk apps will run on itFeb 28 23:21
BalrogQt better then GTK btwFeb 28 23:21
BalrogI find the Mac GUI superior to the Linux toolkits in many ways ... though the difference is becoming smaller as Linux GUI / toolkits mature.Feb 28 23:22
BalrogThe programming method is one big difference thoughFeb 28 23:23
schestowitzObjective C?Feb 28 23:24
schestowitzOr SDKs?Feb 28 23:24
schestowitzOr stupid Aqua themes? :-)Feb 28 23:24
BalrogBoth Obj-C and the Cocoa API'sFeb 28 23:25
schestowitzTrolltech has hugely powerful development tollsFeb 28 23:25
Balrogthe themes keep changingFeb 28 23:25
schestowitz*toolsFeb 28 23:25
Balrogtrue, Qt is getting betterFeb 28 23:25
schestowitzThe themes haven't changes much in OS X (ie. years). It might confuse Mac users :-DFeb 28 23:25
schestowitz*gedFeb 28 23:25
BalrogWhat about the themes?Feb 28 23:26
schestowitzSome people are impressed by visual aspects of GUIFeb 28 23:26
schestowitzNot how they are constructed and how many P/Ls are supportedFeb 28 23:26
schestowitzI will admit that I never used an Apple toolkitFeb 28 23:26
schestowitzA friend of mine did a big Cocoa project in 2001Feb 28 23:26
schestowitzI think he ported something to Linux, but I can't recall now because it's been agesFeb 28 23:27
BalrogApple's visual toolkit is better in a way ... probably the unified menubar and the whole application-based model (vs. document-based) are big timesaversFeb 28 23:27
BalrogIn 2001, Cocoa was in its infancy (on OS X)Feb 28 23:27
MinceRi find the mac gui inferior to just about all the other guis i've ever knownFeb 28 23:28
BalrogMinceR: explainFeb 28 23:28
Balroghave you used it for more than a few days?Feb 28 23:28
MinceRit's inflexible, can't be made to use mousefocus/sloppyfocusFeb 28 23:28
MinceRit wants to keep all the windows of one app on the same layer because of the hack with which multitasking was implemented in macos 6+Feb 28 23:28
BalrogI find mousefocus to be a nuisance.Feb 28 23:28
MinceRthe point here is giving the user a choiceFeb 28 23:29
MinceReven windows does that to some extentFeb 28 23:29
MinceRmacos doesn'tFeb 28 23:29
Balrogwindows in the same layer doesn't seem to be a problem anymoreFeb 28 23:29
Balroghow does Windows give users a choice?Feb 28 23:29
MinceRapple believes they're smarter than the user and don't miss an opportunity to make that explicitFeb 28 23:29
MinceRby having meaningful control panel optionsFeb 28 23:29
Balrogno, they don't want users to be annoyed by inconsistent behaviorFeb 28 23:29
MinceRunlike the ludicrous apple control panelFeb 28 23:29
MinceRi'm sure the dialog box button order, as specified by the apple hig is the pinnacle of consistencyFeb 28 23:30
MinceRit's consistent with idiocyFeb 28 23:30
Balrog??Feb 28 23:30
MinceRalso, macos even complicates switching between windowsFeb 28 23:30
Balrogno, simply press Cmd-~ for within app, and Cmd-Tap for between appFeb 28 23:31
Balrogsaves me lots of timeFeb 28 23:31
MinceRwhy are apps all that important there?Feb 28 23:31
BalrogHaving apps separate is a big timesaver. It's easier to keep track of what's going onFeb 28 23:32
MinceRi know i'd be annoyed to hell if my gvim windows were forced to be togetherFeb 28 23:32
BalrogI used windows for a few years.Feb 28 23:32
MinceRthat's what virtual desktops are forFeb 28 23:32
BalrogI find virtual desktops annoyingFeb 28 23:32
MinceRbtw, i find sloppyfocus to be indispensableFeb 28 23:33
Balrogin any case, the windows aren't strictly kept together but switching windows is grouped by appFeb 28 23:33
MinceRthat's not the story i've heard :>Feb 28 23:33
Balrogmeaning mouse focus? extremely annoying. Tried it and hated itFeb 28 23:33
Balrogwhat story did you hear?Feb 28 23:33
MinceRmouse focus except the root window isn't focusedFeb 28 23:34
Balrogthat's sloppy focus?Feb 28 23:34
MinceRthat if you switch to a window, all windows belonging to that app will also come to the topFeb 28 23:34
MinceRyes, that's sloppyfocus in fvwm termsFeb 28 23:34
Balrogwell "if you switch to a window, all windows belonging to that app will also come to the top" doesn't happen for meFeb 28 23:34
BalrogI have a finder window, the terminal, and another finder window in that exact orderFeb 28 23:35
MinceRalso, i find having the menu at the top of the screen extremely annoyingFeb 28 23:35
BalrogI find that very useful. But that's about tastesFeb 28 23:35
MinceReven beyond the fact that it just doesn't work with mousefocus/sloppyfocusFeb 28 23:35
schestowitzMS nervous about Linux servers: "Microsoft Partners: New Windows Server Aimed At Linux"  http://www.crn.com/software/215600097Feb 28 23:35
MinceRwell, kde lets you decide whether you want it that way or notFeb 28 23:36
MinceRiirc it's even possible with gtkFeb 28 23:36
MinceRbut with apple, it's jobs' way or the highwayFeb 28 23:36
Balrogexcept that programmers make it harder ... having something unified keeps sloppy / lazy programmers from doing things like they wantFeb 28 23:36
Balrogjobs' way? you should see NeXTSTEP ... that's Jobs' softwareFeb 28 23:37
Balrogyou'd hate it vehemently (the ui)Feb 28 23:37
Balrogwell it's not around anymore as it wasFeb 28 23:37
schestowitzIn Apple, copy and paste is not allowed eitherFeb 28 23:37
schestowitzSomeone added this functionalityFeb 28 23:37
Balrogohh you mean in the finder?Feb 28 23:37
schestowitzS/he got bannedFeb 28 23:37
schestowitzThe app got sumpedFeb 28 23:37
MinceRhow much is nextstep like windowmaker?Feb 28 23:37
schestowitz*dumpedFeb 28 23:37
Balrogor the iphone?Feb 28 23:37
Balrogwell I hear they were going outside the app's sandboxFeb 28 23:37
Balrogillegal behaviorFeb 28 23:37
MinceRlolFeb 28 23:37
Balrog(according to the rules)Feb 28 23:38
MinceRyes, it's illegal to have useful apps on iphonesFeb 28 23:38
BalroghehFeb 28 23:38
MinceRthat's why i got a real pda/phone insteadFeb 28 23:38
Balrogmost of the apps are usefulFeb 28 23:38
MinceR(also because i'm not sure if iphones where invented back then)Feb 28 23:38
Balrogback ... when?Feb 28 23:38
Balrog(oh ... wasn't apple the first to have real copy/paste?)Feb 28 23:38
MinceR2007 or 2008, i thinkFeb 28 23:38
Balrogwhat pda/phone do you have?Feb 28 23:39
Balrogthat horrible palmos?Feb 28 23:39
MinceR(wasn't xerox the first to have real copy/paste?)Feb 28 23:39
MinceRi have a qtek 9100Feb 28 23:39
MinceR(also known as htc wizard 200)Feb 28 23:39
MinceRit eats the jesusPhone for breakfastFeb 28 23:39
BalrogXerox was the first to do a lot of stuff.Feb 28 23:40
Balrogyeah, they did copy-paste, but didn't integrate it into the UI that wellFeb 28 23:40
BalrogI rarely use copy-paste ... having spring-loaded folders (missing from Windows) makes it not that criticalFeb 28 23:41
Balrog(well copy-paste in Finder)Feb 28 23:41
Balrogwait ... I remembered they DO have COPY just not CUTFeb 28 23:42
Balrogworks here :)Feb 28 23:42
MinceRwell, the jesusPhone doesn't have copy/pasteFeb 28 23:42
BalroghehFeb 28 23:42
MinceRand when someone tried to implement it, apple prevented them from doing soFeb 28 23:43
BalrogI don't call it that, because it's just a phoneFeb 28 23:43
MinceRwell, some idiots consider it to be the second comingFeb 28 23:43
Balrogmore like phone/OSX-pda hybridFeb 28 23:43
MinceReven though it's just a locked-up featurephone sold for the price of a pda/phoneFeb 28 23:43
Balrogeven the G1 is locked-upFeb 28 23:43
MinceRyes, sadlyFeb 28 23:43
Balrogapps are stuck in java sandboxesFeb 28 23:43
MinceRwell, wm5 isn't locked up that badlyFeb 28 23:44
MinceRneither is palm os 5Feb 28 23:44
Balrogbut WM sucks big-timeFeb 28 23:44
Balrogand palmos sucks as wellFeb 28 23:44
MinceRyes, they suckFeb 28 23:44
BalrogI've worked with a palmFeb 28 23:44
MinceRbut they don't suck nearly as much as the jesusPhone os sucksFeb 28 23:44
BalrogOS X on iphone doesn't suck as much at allFeb 28 23:44
MinceRor androidFeb 28 23:44
MinceRexcept the whole stuff that would make it a pdaFeb 28 23:44
MinceRyou know, open platform, letting you write your own apps, copy/paste, stuff like thatFeb 28 23:45
Balrogonce you jailbreak the device and play around with the software on it, you see that it's quite goodFeb 28 23:45
schestowitzPalm is quite hackableFeb 28 23:45
BalrogI'd like to see stuff like copy/pasteFeb 28 23:45
Balrogiphone is extremely hackableFeb 28 23:46
schestowitzYet secureFeb 28 23:46
schestowitzTo Apple, "security" means controlFeb 28 23:46
schestowitzg1 has some nice YouTube featureFeb 28 23:46
Balrog(and secure too ... not by "control" btw).Feb 28 23:46
schestowitzCan watch videos on the phone (on demand) while waiting. Nothing innovative, but useful for sure.Feb 28 23:46
MinceRonce you jailbreak the device, you lose warrantyFeb 28 23:46
Balrogyoutube is in iphoneFeb 28 23:46
MinceRalso, apple is trying to make that illegalFeb 28 23:46
MinceRjust to show you how much they care about the usersFeb 28 23:46
schestowitzIt already hasFeb 28 23:46
schestowitz(made it illegal, AFAIK)Feb 28 23:47
BalrogMinceR: how do you lose warranty? you just un-jailbreak by restoring the deviceFeb 28 23:47
MinceRalso, the next upgrade is likely to turn your jailbroken jesusPhone into a jesusBrickFeb 28 23:47
BalrogApple hasn't made it illegal BTW ... they want it NOT to be declared legal under the DMCAFeb 28 23:47
MinceRBalrog: and then they prove you did tamper with itFeb 28 23:47
schestowitzNot Brickphone?Feb 28 23:47
MinceRand you're screwedFeb 28 23:47
MinceRiBrick, BrickPhone, whatever worksFeb 28 23:47
MinceRexcept it doesn't work ;)Feb 28 23:47
schestowitzYou run away too far from the original name.Feb 28 23:47
MinceRwell, they've cleverly co-opted the iBrick nameFeb 28 23:48
BalrogThe iphone hackers have found that it's impossible to brick an ipod touch (there's a burned-in-ROM recovery mode) and it's similar with the iphoneFeb 28 23:48
MinceRi used to call the jesusPhone iBrickFeb 28 23:48
schestowitzI know.Feb 28 23:48
MinceRalso, they probably block music uploads to the device in the same way they do with ipodsFeb 28 23:48
Balrog'block music uploads'?Feb 28 23:49
MinceR(which was cracked and then they brought out the dmca-hammer)Feb 28 23:49
Balrogahh thatFeb 28 23:49
twitterwho needs a waranty?Feb 28 23:49
Balrogwell the EFF is behind that so we'll seeFeb 28 23:49
MinceRhttp://yro.slashdot.org/article.p...Feb 28 23:49
MinceRwell, have fun trying to get around restrictions apple puts on their productsFeb 28 23:49
MinceRmeanwhile, i'll do some useful work and actual entertainmentFeb 28 23:50
Balrogthere's nothing they can do about OS XFeb 28 23:50
Balrogby the way Fairplay has been crackedFeb 28 23:50
MinceRindeed, osx is beyond salvationFeb 28 23:50
MinceRwell, all kinds of DRM get crackedFeb 28 23:50
Balrogmeaning they can't prevent me from messing with OSX however I wantFeb 28 23:50
twitterI would not want an iPhone unless I could liberate it.Feb 28 23:50
MinceRthe only people it inconveniences are the typical users who don't know enoughFeb 28 23:50
Balrogand the crack is open-source btwFeb 28 23:50
schestowitzGah! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29410010/ Funambol is helping binaryPhones now...Feb 28 23:50
twitterThe major thing preventing liberation is the telco.Feb 28 23:51
MinceRso guess what, apple screws its own paying customers first and foremostFeb 28 23:51
Balrogthey sent the people who wrote it a DMCA notice, so it moved to freenet :)Feb 28 23:51
schestowitzBalrog: Mozilla is behind it as well.Feb 28 23:51
schestowitzAnd other companiesFeb 28 23:51
MinceRi wouldn't want an iphone even then, eitherFeb 28 23:51
MinceRbecause it has no keyboardFeb 28 23:51
schestowitzEven the Mac fans who work at Mozilla are against AppleFeb 28 23:51
MinceRhaving my palm pda taught me that nothing can substitute a real keyboardFeb 28 23:51
Balrogkeyboards are a reliability problemFeb 28 23:51
twittereh, MinceR, Graphiti works better than a keyboardFeb 28 23:51
Balrogtoo many moving partsFeb 28 23:51
MinceRtwitter: lolFeb 28 23:51
twitterto each his own.Feb 28 23:52
MinceRtwitter: hint: i've used graffiti (however it's spelled)Feb 28 23:52
MinceRit's a total pain in the ass to useFeb 28 23:52
BalrogMANY Mac fans complain about appleFeb 28 23:52
BalrogI complain about some of the things they doFeb 28 23:52
MinceRin the end i've ended up using messagease but even that was painfulFeb 28 23:52
Balrog(like this 'ipodhash' thing, for example)Feb 28 23:52
schestowitztwitter: not true.Feb 28 23:52
MinceRthe keyboard of the qtek 9100 was a real reliefFeb 28 23:52
schestowitzI have a foldable keyboard for my Palm and it's full sizeFeb 28 23:52
MinceRBalrog: and then you go back for a second helping of the screwage they deliverFeb 28 23:53
twitterdid you use the real graphiti or that horrid "handwriting recognition" that lawsuits forced on everyone?Feb 28 23:53
MinceRBalrog: and how are keyboards a "reliability problem" exactly?Feb 28 23:53
Balrogbecause their stuff works better than the competition, at least nowFeb 28 23:53
Balrogdirt in keyboard.....Feb 28 23:53
Balrogcrumbs ......Feb 28 23:53
MinceRlolFeb 28 23:53
Balrogcan't happen with a touchscreenFeb 28 23:53
twittereventually, keyboards failFeb 28 23:53
MinceRhow do you use your gadgets?Feb 28 23:53
schestowitztwitter: I use graffiti1Feb 28 23:53
MinceRdo you alternately dip them in lard and mud?Feb 28 23:53
MinceRor what?Feb 28 23:53
schestowitzXerox sued, no?Feb 28 23:54
schestowitzBastardsFeb 28 23:54
schestowitzhelping 'innovation'Feb 28 23:54
twitterXstroke works almost as well.Feb 28 23:54
Balrogschestowitz: xerox?Feb 28 23:54
MinceRBalrog: not even the jesusPhone is hermetically sealedFeb 28 23:54
MinceRso it will fail if you treat it that wayFeb 28 23:54
schestowitzWho would have thought...?Feb 28 23:54
schestowitzDraw a lineFeb 28 23:54
BalrogI didn't say hermetically sealedFeb 28 23:54
schestowitzit makes an 'i'Feb 28 23:54
schestowitzDraw a circle, it's make an 'o'Feb 28 23:54
schestowitzCavemen fogured it outFeb 28 23:54
Balrogwith keyboards, it often occurs that you need to press harder for a key to workFeb 28 23:55
MinceRi think what they patented was the single-stroke design of the more complex lettersFeb 28 23:55
BalrogI've seen it *many times(Feb 28 23:55
twitterreduced stroke set was a great idea.  Was it really Xerox that sued.Feb 28 23:55
Balrogtimes*Feb 28 23:55
MinceRbecause they couldn't manage to recognize them with multiple strokesFeb 28 23:55
MinceRit took the developers of Jot to do thatFeb 28 23:55
schestowitzMinceR: yes, patentedFeb 28 23:55
schestowitzNot inventedFeb 28 23:55
twitterit's an obvious ideaFeb 28 23:55
schestowitzIt's obviousFeb 28 23:55
MinceRand strangely enough, palm licensed Jot laterFeb 28 23:55
schestowitzBecause they are stupid.. in a stupid systemFeb 28 23:55
MinceR(well, a dumbed-down version)Feb 28 23:55
schestowitzPassing costs to usersFeb 28 23:56
MinceRBalrog: i suspect you're using some of the worst keyboards in the worldFeb 28 23:56
twitterXstroke works still and I think it's free softwareFeb 28 23:56
MinceRBalrog: are they from apple?Feb 28 23:56
schestowitzNow they have the hipsters from Apple claiming ownership of two fingersFeb 28 23:56
BalrogMinceR: no, Apple keyboards work quite well for me. Nokia and Motorola keyboards have been quite nastyFeb 28 23:56
MinceRapple claims ownership of all kinds of ideas, including ones they didn't invent in the first placeFeb 28 23:56
BalrogI don't see how this patent will hold up in court if they try to claim it's so broadFeb 28 23:57
MinceRBalrog: what a pity the jesusPhone doesn't happen to have one of those wonderful apple keyboards then.Feb 28 23:57
MinceRi think they hope not to have to take it to courtFeb 28 23:57
twittergraffiti worked well for field notes and other PDA type stuff.Feb 28 23:57
MinceRlike microsoft, apple uses patent FUD heavilyFeb 28 23:57
MinceRsee the case when they tried to intimidate palm.Feb 28 23:57
MinceRtwitter: yes, but not for longer textsFeb 28 23:58
Balrogheh. On such a small device, a keyboard wouldn't add as much value as on a laptop or desktopFeb 28 23:58
twitterfor console work, I preferred the mechanical keyboard on Zaurus.Feb 28 23:58
MinceRBalrog: actually it wouldFeb 28 23:58
BalrogI've tried that keyboard. Still slow.Feb 28 23:58
MinceRwhich one?Feb 28 23:58
MinceRand slow compared to what?Feb 28 23:58
BalrogSL5500 I thinkFeb 28 23:58
Balrogcompared to a decent touch-based systemFeb 28 23:59
twitterthat is the most popular modelFeb 28 23:59
MinceRphone keyboards, graffiti, messagease, desktop keyboards?Feb 28 23:59
MinceRlolFeb 28 23:59
BalrogI need a batteryFeb 28 23:59
Balrog(for it)Feb 28 23:59
MinceRdecent touch-based systems don't existFeb 28 23:59
MinceRdecent systems require tactile feedbackFeb 28 23:59
Balrogcapacitive, like in iPhone, are quite decentFeb 28 23:59
MinceRit's a pity zaurus diedFeb 28 23:59

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