To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.
| schestowitz | He also writes to Microsoft's main buddy, IDC | Mar 11 12:03 |
|---|---|---|
| oiaohm | Some are changing sides recently. | Mar 11 12:03 |
| oiaohm | Or at least trying to put themselves on netrual ground. | Mar 11 12:04 |
| oiaohm | Not all shills are complete idiots to the way the tide is going. | Mar 11 12:04 |
| Eruaran | I installed Linux Mint 6 KDE RC1 on our store demo today | Mar 11 12:04 |
| Eruaran | Customers were free to dual boot between Mint and Windows 7 (Beta 7000) | Mar 11 12:05 |
| Eruaran | It was Mint that stole the show | Mar 11 12:05 |
| Eruaran | I had one guy who asked, "how much will that be when it comes out ?" | Mar 11 12:06 |
| Eruaran | I said, "its free" | Mar 11 12:06 |
| Eruaran | He thought I was joking so I said, "no I'm serious, its free" | Mar 11 12:06 |
| Eruaran | There was a long pause and then he expressed how impressed he was with, "Bloody hell !" | Mar 11 12:08 |
| Eruaran | One comment on Windows 7 today, "looks like Vista" | Mar 11 12:08 |
| oiaohm | Thinking Linux is not at its most marketable yet. | Mar 11 12:10 |
| *tacit (n=andi@opensuse/member/AndreasStieger) has joined #boycottnovell | Mar 11 12:10 | |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: yes, they try to be seen as impartial | Mar 11 12:10 |
| schestowitz | It give their FUD more credibility | Mar 11 12:10 |
| schestowitz | They understand this | Mar 11 12:10 |
| schestowitz | Hi, Andreas | Mar 11 12:10 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: 12 months ago they would not have even bothered trying to seam impartial. | Mar 11 12:11 |
| tacit | Heya. | Mar 11 12:11 |
| Eruaran | oiaohm: When I put it on display, it markets itself | Mar 11 12:11 |
| Eruaran | hello tacit | Mar 11 12:11 |
| oiaohm | http://freeipa.org or equals formed up Eruaran Linux will hit its most marketable. ie targetable at business. | Mar 11 12:12 |
| Eruaran | Nothing breaks down barriers better than putting a system on display that people can play with | Mar 11 12:12 |
| oiaohm | Current state is only the tip of a huge iceberg coming for MS. | Mar 11 12:12 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: true, true | Mar 11 12:13 |
| schestowitz | But if you expose them, as Carla Schroder has, then they must do something | Mar 11 12:13 |
| schestowitz | This not only jeopardise their journalistic integrity | Mar 11 12:13 |
| schestowitz | It also leads them to losing their audience, who they want to hate Linux and Google. | Mar 11 12:13 |
| schestowitz | Gralla attacks Google a a lot as well | Mar 11 12:14 |
| schestowitz | It's a Microsoft mouthpiece | Mar 11 12:14 |
| Eruaran | I had a regular customer today who works at the local university looking at Linux Mint... he said he could see GNU/Linux making a serious dent in Microsoft's business over the next couple of years | Mar 11 12:14 |
| schestowitz | It hits their margins first | Mar 11 12:14 |
| oiaohm | The killer weapons are not out yet. | Mar 11 12:14 |
| oiaohm | Samba running ADS server. | Mar 11 12:15 |
| schestowitz | First this leads Mcirosoft to giving Windows gratis | Mar 11 12:15 |
| schestowitz | Then with incentives | Mar 11 12:15 |
| schestowitz | Remember MS' memos | Mar 11 12:15 |
| Eruaran | indeed | Mar 11 12:15 |
| oiaohm | Stuff like Freeipa providing central management. | Mar 11 12:15 |
| schestowitz | "Under NO circumstances lose to Linux" | Mar 11 12:15 |
| schestowitz | This means, "even pay people not to use Linux" | Mar 11 12:15 |
| schestowitz | But Microsoft is near debt/in debt | Mar 11 12:15 |
| oiaohm | KDE getting fully cross platform. | Mar 11 12:15 |
| schestowitz | It might be deep in debt now | Mar 11 12:15 |
| schestowitz | I can only say what Microsoft says | Mar 11 12:15 |
| oiaohm | Basically attacks are on all Sides of MS. | Mar 11 12:15 |
| schestowitz | No-one but the CTO knows the truth | Mar 11 12:16 |
| oiaohm | Who says the CTO knows the truth. | Mar 11 12:16 |
| schestowitz | The previous CFO fled | Mar 11 12:16 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: I meant CFO | Mar 11 12:16 |
| schestowitz | He's now in their proxy | Mar 11 12:16 |
| oiaohm | That does not mean they know the truth. | Mar 11 12:16 |
| schestowitz | Ignition Partners | Mar 11 12:16 |
| schestowitz | Many former Sofities are there | Mar 11 12:16 |
| schestowitz | They helped the hijack of Xen | Mar 11 12:16 |
| oiaohm | there are a lot of ways that you can stuff up forcasts. | Mar 11 12:17 |
| schestowitz | Xen was funded by them, 'poisoned' (MS GM), then sold to MS' partner | Mar 11 12:17 |
| schestowitz | Now Xen is pimping Windows | Mar 11 12:17 |
| oiaohm | Xen vs KVM | Mar 11 12:17 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: I wonder where MS' money comes from | Mar 11 12:17 |
| schestowitz | Only in a few countries people pay for Windows and Office | Mar 11 12:17 |
| schestowitz | Even govts in some countries don't pay for it | Mar 11 12:17 |
| oiaohm | Lot would come from Australia | Mar 11 12:18 |
| schestowitz | And Microsoft has many bad units | Mar 11 12:18 |
| schestowitz | Like XBox, Web... losing $billions each | Mar 11 12:18 |
| oiaohm | With the highest paid usage of MS products per number of poplulation. | Mar 11 12:18 |
| schestowitz | With Office being dumped at Aussie students, that can't be good for revenue | Mar 11 12:18 |
| schestowitz | They have a new gig | Mar 11 12:18 |
| schestowitz | Patents | Mar 11 12:18 |
| oiaohm | That was to stop openoffice getting into schools. | Mar 11 12:18 |
| schestowitz | They sign cross-licensing deads | Mar 11 12:18 |
| schestowitz | Then they have companies pay Microsoft for products Microsoft never made | Mar 11 12:19 |
| schestowitz | Welcome to the world of racketeering | Mar 11 12:19 |
| schestowitz | IV does the same thing. | Mar 11 12:19 |
| schestowitz | With Cisco for example | Mar 11 12:19 |
| schestowitz | Cisco paying tons of millions to some trolls | Mar 11 12:19 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft trolls | Mar 11 12:19 |
| schestowitz | Cisco ain't happy | Mar 11 12:19 |
| oiaohm | Remove the racketeering from the patent system and it works ok. | Mar 11 12:20 |
| schestowitz | It began using PostPath (??) to attack Microsoft's servers | Mar 11 12:20 |
| Eruaran | It only pushes more corporates to support Linux | Mar 11 12:20 |
| Eruaran | Cisco makes kernel contributions | Mar 11 12:20 |
| oiaohm | Linux is not fully ready to take control of the corporate desktops yet. | Mar 11 12:20 |
| oiaohm | When it is days of MS is numbered. | Mar 11 12:20 |
| Eruaran | I am speaking in broad terms | Mar 11 12:20 |
| oiaohm | They cycle | Mar 11 12:21 |
| oiaohm | School to Busines to Home. | Mar 11 12:21 |
| Eruaran | Doesn't have to be desktop | Mar 11 12:21 |
| oiaohm | That is the basic loop software. | Mar 11 12:21 |
| oiaohm | You control schools you effect business software usage that effects home usage that in turn effects school usage. | Mar 11 12:22 |
| oiaohm | OS needs to be good in all three markets to win. | Mar 11 12:22 |
| tacit | oiaohm: OS as in open source? | Mar 11 12:23 |
| Eruaran | Had someone come in today who said the college was using Vista and they had to be compatible with Vista... | Mar 11 12:23 |
| oiaohm | OS as in operating system. | Mar 11 12:23 |
| *_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.78.110) has joined #boycottnovell | Mar 11 12:23 | |
| _Hicham_ | Hi All! | Mar 11 12:24 |
| oiaohm | Look at all operating system that have had victoriest over time in desktop usage they were obeying those rules tacit | Mar 11 12:24 |
| tacit | oiaohm: Do you write any FLOSS software? | Mar 11 12:24 |
| oiaohm | Normally no. | Mar 11 12:24 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : how r u doing? | Mar 11 12:25 |
| oiaohm | Most of the stuff I write is very much one off stuff. | Mar 11 12:25 |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_: fine how are you. | Mar 11 12:25 |
| tacit | oiaohm: Well I do. And I don't to it to win. This is about the best system for me. I don't think anybody else should use it or should be persuaded to. If they don't want it, they are not ready for it. | Mar 11 12:25 |
| tacit | This whole market share talk is nonsense. | Mar 11 12:26 |
| oiaohm | You think your selections are 100 percent independant tacit? | Mar 11 12:27 |
| tacit | oiaohm: My selections of what? | Mar 11 12:27 |
| oiaohm | Best system for you. | Mar 11 12:27 |
| oiaohm | The whole market effects selections of lots of people. | Mar 11 12:27 |
| tacit | I don't see why anybody should have an opinion about my system, either. | Mar 11 12:28 |
| oiaohm | If you have to do items for work tacit you end up requiring particular software at times. | Mar 11 12:28 |
| oiaohm | Not of your own choosing. | Mar 11 12:28 |
| oiaohm | off | Mar 11 12:28 |
| oiaohm | that is how business effects home. | Mar 11 12:28 |
| schestowitz | tacit: until they sue (TomTom) | Mar 11 12:29 |
| oiaohm | School effects business because if staff running there systems only know X Y and Z program that is normally what the business ends up with. | Mar 11 12:29 |
| oiaohm | Also home effects school because if people don't have that software at home its hard for students to do there work. | Mar 11 12:30 |
| tacit | The TomTom issue is a different thing. That's companies, not me. Any company using GPL'ed software is free to cease to do so if they want to sign a patent deal. | Mar 11 12:30 |
| schestowitz | Your system *is* better, thus they want to illegalise it or force you to pay *them* to use it. That's why they push so gard for sw patents in Germany | Mar 11 12:30 |
| schestowitz | *hard | Mar 11 12:30 |
| schestowitz | tacit: companies like TomTom build your system | Mar 11 12:30 |
| oiaohm | Its a self feeding loop that can push yourself to the edges but getting out of it is hard. | Mar 11 12:30 |
| schestowitz | I.e. you depend on their wiggling room. | Mar 11 12:31 |
| tacit | I don't see that as an issue at all. | Mar 11 12:31 |
| oiaohm | I currently running on Linux at home. I work on Linux servers at work. | Mar 11 12:31 |
| schestowitz | Threat and racketeering is starvation of development or funding | Mar 11 12:31 |
| oiaohm | So even I follow the normal. | Mar 11 12:31 |
| oiaohm | Of work effecting home. | Mar 11 12:31 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: that's good | Mar 11 12:31 |
| schestowitz | It'll spread | Mar 11 12:31 |
| schestowitz | When more people imitate you | Mar 11 12:31 |
| schestowitz | No harm, right? | Mar 11 12:31 |
| schestowitz | Well, someone's franchise is in jeopardy | Mar 11 12:32 |
| tacit | My home affects my work. Ever thought about that? | Mar 11 12:32 |
| schestowitz | And they don't sit idly | Mar 11 12:32 |
| schestowitz | To characterise us as "freetards" or criminals is the plan. | Mar 11 12:32 |
| oiaohm | Most cases boss has the power to tell you what to do in most cases tacit not the other way over. | Mar 11 12:32 |
| schestowitz | The former being a slur, the latter a legal term | Mar 11 12:32 |
| tacit | oiaohm: Why do you assume $BOSS is a MS fanboy? | Mar 11 12:32 |
| oiaohm | Of course there are some exceptions tacit but is normal. | Mar 11 12:33 |
| oiaohm | I did not tacit | Mar 11 12:33 |
| oiaohm | My boss is not a MS fanboy. | Mar 11 12:33 |
| tacit | If it is his decision, and he decides MS is a better platform, which is sometimes very well is, it's done. What's the deal about that? | Mar 11 12:34 |
| oiaohm | You are just effected by the software loop as any one else tacit | Mar 11 12:34 |
| MinceR | when is it very well so? | Mar 11 12:34 |
| oiaohm | I am talking about feed on effects tacit | Mar 11 12:35 |
| oiaohm | Boss selects that. You do work at home that much work so it has a feed on effect. | Mar 11 12:35 |
| oiaohm | Very little in this world happens alone tacit. | Mar 11 12:36 |
| oiaohm | much/must | Mar 11 12:37 |
| oiaohm | Lot of people personally hate me when I talk about how free will is not as free as most people try to make out. | Mar 11 12:38 |
| oiaohm | One of the fun things to do. Is put a deck of cards on a table and ask people one at a time without knowing what the others have done to turn the cards in a circle. | Mar 11 12:39 |
| tacit | Most people personally hate me when I note that I don't care about whether GNU/Linux (or [enter FLOSS project of your choice]) will be the dominant operating system (or [enter FLOSS project's application]) or not. | Mar 11 12:40 |
| oiaohm | Direction is set almost 100 percent of the time by if they are right or left handed. | Mar 11 12:40 |
| oiaohm | So much for free will. | Mar 11 12:40 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : what do u think is the best killer for TomTom and its OS? | Mar 11 12:41 |
| *tacit (n=andi@opensuse/member/AndreasStieger) has left #boycottnovell | Mar 11 12:41 | |
| oiaohm | TomTom is basically impoding. | Mar 11 12:42 |
| oiaohm | Due to lack of sales. | Mar 11 12:42 |
| oiaohm | So it really does not need a killer. | Mar 11 12:42 |
| _Hicham_ | but they make a lot of fuss about windows 7 | Mar 11 12:42 |
| oiaohm | MS is like any other preditor picking off the weak. | Mar 11 12:43 |
| oiaohm | And hoping the hurd don't beat the crap out of them. | Mar 11 12:43 |
| _Hicham_ | I seen a lot of laptops makers offers drivers just for Vista | Mar 11 12:43 |
| _Hicham_ | so a lot of users felt mistreated | Mar 11 12:44 |
| oiaohm | How many of those laptops have express gate or equal. | Mar 11 12:44 |
| _Hicham_ | what do u mean? | Mar 11 12:44 |
| oiaohm | On motherboard Linux _Hicham_ | Mar 11 12:44 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't understand ur question | Mar 11 12:45 |
| oiaohm | There is a realy evil way to make XP work on most of them. | Mar 11 12:45 |
| _Hicham_ | there is no way sometimes | Mar 11 12:46 |
| oiaohm | Linux running KVM with XP installed inside with PCI pass threw. | Mar 11 12:46 |
| _Hicham_ | as there is no drivers | Mar 11 12:46 |
| oiaohm | Qemu software emulation drivers. | Mar 11 12:46 |
| oiaohm | Very little is impossable _Hicham_ | Mar 11 12:46 |
| _Hicham_ | there is no open source drivers in Windows | Mar 11 12:46 |
| _Hicham_ | that is why there is no alternative | Mar 11 12:47 |
| oiaohm | Linux drivers | Mar 11 12:47 |
| oiaohm | Hidden from XP by qemu | Mar 11 12:47 |
| oiaohm | So yes OS ontop of a OS. | Mar 11 12:47 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : i dont think that this is a good solution | Mar 11 12:47 |
| _Hicham_ | virtiualization is not meant for everyday use | Mar 11 12:48 |
| oiaohm | It is still a solution _Hicham_ | Mar 11 12:48 |
| _Hicham_ | a last resort | Mar 11 12:48 |
| oiaohm | Why not _Hicham_ | Mar 11 12:48 |
| oiaohm | Server farms run it every day. | Mar 11 12:48 |
| _Hicham_ | servers | Mar 11 12:48 |
| _Hicham_ | not desktops | Mar 11 12:48 |
| oiaohm | XP is can be more power effective inside KVM. | Mar 11 12:48 |
| MinceR | it might be a good idea even on desktops | Mar 11 12:49 |
| MinceR | running legacy apps, segregating network apps (like browsers) | Mar 11 12:49 |
| _Hicham_ | legacy app's run fine in Wine | Mar 11 12:49 |
| oiaohm | Setting up the video card pass threw is the fun bit. | Mar 11 12:50 |
| oiaohm | Will get simpler by end of year. | Mar 11 12:50 |
| *ushimitsudoki (n=ushimits@p2132-ipad04yosemiya.okinawa.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #boycottnovell | Mar 11 12:50 | |
| oiaohm | Binary drivers that Windows uses say are great make XP death happen. | Mar 11 12:50 |
| _Hicham_ | a friend of mine asked me to find a driver for his lappy ( a Sony Vaio by the way ) for XP, i searched in sony's website, but i didn't find them | Mar 11 12:51 |
| _Hicham_ | they offer only vista drivers | Mar 11 12:51 |
| _Hicham_ | linux is not supported officially | Mar 11 12:51 |
| _Hicham_ | i tried omega drivers | Mar 11 12:51 |
| _Hicham_ | but those ones are unstable | Mar 11 12:52 |
| MinceR | not all legacy apps run fine in wine | Mar 11 12:52 |
| _Hicham_ | an example MinceR plz | Mar 11 12:52 |
| oiaohm | http://www.linux-on-laptops.com/sony.html << Would not be in that list by any chance _Hicham_ | Mar 11 12:52 |
| Eruaran | whats the driver for _Hicham_ | Mar 11 12:52 |
| MinceR | _Hicham_: Multi-Ripper 3.00 beta | Mar 11 12:53 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : linux run fine | Mar 11 12:53 |
| MinceR | tried it in wine, crossover and crossover games | Mar 11 12:53 |
| oiaohm | XP is not offically supported either. | Mar 11 12:53 |
| MinceR | nothing happened when i started it | Mar 11 12:53 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : i was talking about xp drivers, linux run without a small problem | Mar 11 12:53 |
| oiaohm | Why do you need hardware targeted drivers. | Mar 11 12:53 |
| oiaohm | qemu provides a wrapper from a generic audio drivers that all OS supports to current hardware. | Mar 11 12:54 |
| _Hicham_ | MinceR : does this software rip things off a cd? | Mar 11 12:54 |
| oiaohm | Insane would be to try coding your own drivers. | Mar 11 12:55 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : it can be a pain to run big software on virtual machines | Mar 11 12:55 |
| MinceR | _Hicham_: nope, it rips files out of archive-like files like .uax, .wad and .grp | Mar 11 12:55 |
| Eruaran | ... | Mar 11 12:55 |
| MinceR | (even if the container file is of an unknown format) | Mar 11 12:55 |
| oiaohm | KVM is a processor supported virtual machine. | Mar 11 12:55 |
| oiaohm | It works with very little overhead really. | Mar 11 12:56 |
| oiaohm | The pain is getting direct X working. | Mar 11 12:56 |
| oiaohm | Other than that its straight forward. | Mar 11 12:57 |
| _Hicham_ | because directx is based on the COM technology | Mar 11 12:57 |
| oiaohm | KVM running invisable in background eats 128 megs of ram. | Mar 11 12:57 |
| oiaohm | Nothing to do with direct x tech. | Mar 11 12:57 |
| oiaohm | All to do with passing threw video card in a non inited state. | Mar 11 12:58 |
| oiaohm | So direct X can setup the video card and use it with windows native drivers. | Mar 11 12:58 |
| _Hicham_ | great | Mar 11 12:58 |
| _Hicham_ | i never tried kvm | Mar 11 12:58 |
| _Hicham_ | but qemu didn't work quite well for me | Mar 11 12:59 |
| oiaohm | There are lot of non main line patches and other muching around. | Mar 11 12:59 |
| _Hicham_ | i was trying it for reactos | Mar 11 12:59 |
| oiaohm | mucking aroudn. | Mar 11 12:59 |
| oiaohm | By end of year should be fairly simple hopefully. | Mar 11 12:59 |
| _Hicham_ | VMWare on windows run great | Mar 11 12:59 |
| oiaohm | VMWare running windows in Linux also works OK. | Mar 11 13:00 |
| MinceR | i've used vmware twice, both times it broke irrecoverably after a few upgrades | Mar 11 13:02 |
| schestowitz | UN climate chief: US carbon cuts could spark 'revolution' < http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/... > | Mar 11 13:02 |
| oiaohm | Hopefully link time optimisation lands in gcc some time this year. | Mar 11 13:03 |
| oiaohm | Performance boost to Linux world will stun people. | Mar 11 13:03 |
| oiaohm | New version of qemu was released recently _Hicham_ | Mar 11 13:06 |
| MinceR | how much is that performance boost? | Mar 11 13:07 |
| *ushimitsudoki1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Mar 11 13:07 | |
| oiaohm | Proper virtio support | Mar 11 13:08 |
| oiaohm | So yes avoiding emulating IDE controls and Network card is now do able MinceR | Mar 11 13:08 |
| oiaohm | That is kinda a nice big speed boost. | Mar 11 13:08 |
| MinceR | i mean, how much performance boost does link-time optimization provide? | Mar 11 13:14 |
| MinceR | i thought that's the boost you meant | Mar 11 13:14 |
| MinceR | i don't doubt that virtio is going to make a performance boost :) | Mar 11 13:14 |
| oiaohm | link-time optimisation depends on program. | Mar 11 13:16 |
| oiaohm | Lots of programs have code that could be solved out completely. | Mar 11 13:16 |
| oiaohm | at build time. Due to the code being in different object files its not sloved so cpu wastes a lot of time processing it. | Mar 11 13:17 |
| oiaohm | Basicaly anywhere between 0 and insane. | Mar 11 13:17 |
| schestowitz | http://blogs.computerworld.com/novel... "Second, always a smart move to lay off the developers and keep high paid executives! After all what can developers do, except make the products you sell. Why do you need them when you can have overpaid executives who have problems determining which is their posteriors and what is a hole in the ground?" | Mar 11 13:17 |
| schestowitz | "I was wondering in the wake of the recent patent lawsuit filed against TomTom by Microsoft, what would happen if SFLC would start looking into the GPL compliance of Novell Linux. Let's say somebody knocks at Novell's door asking to see how many GPLd pieces of code are being mentioned in their patent agreement with Microsoft." | Mar 11 13:18 |
| oiaohm | One case here over 50 percent of the binary size disappared when link time optimisation was done MinceR | Mar 11 13:18 |
| oiaohm | And it performance shot up past what any of us had been tweaking it could dream. | Mar 11 13:19 |
| MinceR | how much does that reduce the resident set size in runtime? | Mar 11 13:19 |
| MinceR | that's nice. | Mar 11 13:19 |
| oiaohm | Not allways the case of course. | Mar 11 13:19 |
| oiaohm | Its 100 percent program dependant. | Mar 11 13:19 |
| oiaohm | there is automatic threading optimistations coming as well. | Mar 11 13:20 |
| oiaohm | Ie where complier works out what sections of a program can be run side by side. | Mar 11 13:20 |
| oiaohm | Without coder having to worry about locks and the like. | Mar 11 13:20 |
| oiaohm | There are lots of programs out there not thread aware. | Mar 11 13:21 |
| MinceR | nice | Mar 11 13:22 |
| oiaohm | Basically this year lot of good things for gcc are being worked on. | Mar 11 13:22 |
| oiaohm | wine 64 bit should appear when the next gcc gets released too. | Mar 11 13:23 |
| _Hicham_ | I liked the fact that gcc got precompiled headers support in version 4 | Mar 11 13:28 |
| schestowitz | @trmanco : I wrote about what Microsoft is doing in Portugal again: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/11/pat... | Mar 11 13:29 |
| oiaohm | Personally Gcc has be stuffed at core for years _Hicham_ | Mar 11 13:29 |
| oiaohm | Reason why for lots of production work I have been forced to use like PGroups complier | Mar 11 13:29 |
| _Hicham_ | MSVC is still the most used one | Mar 11 13:30 |
| oiaohm | automatic threading and linktime optmistation is basically a requirement for top peforming work. | Mar 11 13:30 |
| oiaohm | Sorry MSVC is slower than Pgroup's. | Mar 11 13:30 |
| oiaohm | MSVC don't have automatic thread assignment. | Mar 11 13:30 |
| oiaohm | MSVC does have linktime optimisation. | Mar 11 13:31 |
| _Hicham_ | never worked with PGroup's compiler | Mar 11 13:31 |
| oiaohm | You have to pay for Pgroups | Mar 11 13:31 |
| oiaohm | Its not a free item. | Mar 11 13:31 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: I see in USENET that the trolls mislead again. Some people seem to be missing the point that Ecaudor as a whole (not just IRS) is intended to move to Free software after RMS' visits. I put this in the "recent:" references | Mar 11 13:33 |
| schestowitz | *Ecuador | Mar 11 13:33 |
| oiaohm | Also pgroup is one of the compliers that do C++ fully to standard. | Mar 11 13:33 |
| _Hicham_ | but it is not free as you said | Mar 11 13:33 |
| oiaohm | Gcc and MSVC either works fully to standard for C++ | Mar 11 13:34 |
| oiaohm | either neither | Mar 11 13:35 |
| _Hicham_ | I still prefer GCC, even if produces slow binaries sometimes | Mar 11 13:35 |
| oiaohm | Run llvm over your code sometimes _Hicham_ | Mar 11 13:36 |
| oiaohm | It will find lot of the link time optimisations gcc is missing and its open source. | Mar 11 13:37 |
| _Hicham_ | first time that i see it | Mar 11 13:38 |
| _Hicham_ | thanks | Mar 11 13:38 |
| Eruaran | How to send a true lover of Scotch single malt whiskey into convulsions | Mar 11 13:39 |
| Eruaran | 1. pour a dash of Glenfiddich 18 year old Scotch into a tumbler | Mar 11 13:39 |
| Eruaran | 2. Add ice | Mar 11 13:39 |
| Eruaran | (he should have started twitching by now) | Mar 11 13:39 |
| Eruaran | 3. Top up with Coca Cola | Mar 11 13:40 |
| Eruaran | 4. smile as you do it | Mar 11 13:40 |
| Eruaran | Your victim will now be fully convulsing on the ground... or unconscious with shock | Mar 11 13:40 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : what is ur preferred IDE? | Mar 11 13:42 |
| oiaohm | Ok add a touch of vodka for taste if he was not on the ground already Eruaran | Mar 11 13:42 |
| oiaohm | Kdevelop most of the time. | Mar 11 13:42 |
| *mib_2zrfik (i=4b45a4dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4d8f889f579f1fd1) has joined #boycottnovell | Mar 11 13:43 | |
| oiaohm | Its sometimes elispce it all depends on what I am coding. | Mar 11 13:43 |
| mib_2zrfik | jesus christ, just read about moonlight comtanimating a bunch of linux distros and freebsd | Mar 11 13:44 |
| mib_2zrfik | on planet gnome | Mar 11 13:44 |
| Balrog_ | which distros | Mar 11 13:45 |
| Balrog_ | freeBSD??????? | Mar 11 13:45 |
| mib_2zrfik | Mandriva, Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, and FreeBSD | Mar 11 13:45 |
| mib_2zrfik | yep, even freebsd | Mar 11 13:45 |
| Balrog_ | on the discs or in the repos? | Mar 11 13:45 |
| mib_2zrfik | not sure | Mar 11 13:46 |
| mib_2zrfik | the article doesn't say | Mar 11 13:46 |
| Balrog_ | the discs is what we're worried about | Mar 11 13:46 |
| Balrog_ | with the repos, you install at your own risk | Mar 11 13:46 |
| mib_2zrfik | even so, they are distributing moonshite | Mar 11 13:46 |
| mib_2zrfik | I can't believe people are so stupid to trust those monoers | Mar 11 13:46 |
| Balrog_ | is it ffmpeg-linked or not? | Mar 11 13:47 |
| Balrog_ | that's a big part (IMO) | Mar 11 13:47 |
| Balrog_ | if it's not ffmpeg-linked, it's bringing proprietary codecs into Linux | Mar 11 13:47 |
| Balrog_ | URL? | Mar 11 13:47 |
| mib_2zrfik | it's at the top of planet.gnome.org | Mar 11 13:47 |
| oiaohm | What about gnome and all its mono intergration. | Mar 11 13:48 |
| Balrog_ | use Xfce or KDE based distros then | Mar 11 13:48 |
| Eruaran | I don't trust gnome devs any more. Period. | Mar 11 13:48 |
| Balrog_ | and it's in the gentoo portage tree, but there's no choice to use proprietary codecs | Mar 11 13:49 |
| mib_2zrfik | ok | Mar 11 13:49 |
| Balrog_ | but the portage tree is broad ... it has a lot of non-free software, like vmware, etc | Mar 11 13:49 |
| mib_2zrfik | ah, didn't know that | Mar 11 13:49 |
| Balrog_ | parallels | Mar 11 13:49 |
| Balrog_ | other software that you have to pay for | Mar 11 13:49 |
| Eruaran | I'm using Kubuntu 9.04 atm... KDE 4.2.1, sweetest desktop I've ever had | Mar 11 13:49 |
| Balrog_ | xfce is nice too | Mar 11 13:50 |
| Balrog_ | in any case, moonlight 1 doesn't do what I need | Mar 11 13:50 |
| Eruaran | While the Gnome devs have been fiddling about with mono and moonlight and excuses, the KDE devs have been producing great software | Mar 11 13:50 |
| Balrog_ | heh yeah | Mar 11 13:50 |
| oiaohm | KDE 4.x has had its teething problems. | Mar 11 13:51 |
| mib_2zrfik | shame that kde devs are also fiddling with mono | Mar 11 13:51 |
| oiaohm | Nop | Mar 11 13:51 |
| Balrog_ | at least not many are | Mar 11 13:51 |
| Eruaran | nah | Mar 11 13:51 |
| mib_2zrfik | roy posted about it | Mar 11 13:51 |
| oiaohm | KDE developers want nothing to do with mono. | Mar 11 13:51 |
| Eruaran | some guy from Novell was pushing it | Mar 11 13:51 |
| _Hicham_ | Gnome can always be trusted | Mar 11 13:51 |
| oiaohm | Novell guy got kicked in teeth very badly. | Mar 11 13:51 |
| mib_2zrfik | richard dale works for novell now? | Mar 11 13:51 |
| who pushed the Winblows port? | Mar 11 13:51 | |
| Eruaran | no interest from the KDE community | Mar 11 13:51 |
| _Hicham_ | since it is backed by RedHat | Mar 11 13:52 |
| oiaohm | QT base of KDE was opened up for windows use. | Mar 11 13:52 |
| Balrog_ | kde-windows gets more publicity for kde and linux | Mar 11 13:52 |
| oiaohm | So developers are taking advantage of it. | Mar 11 13:52 |
| "opened up" is a funny name for a windows port | Mar 11 13:52 | |
| Balrog_ | it's LGPL too | Mar 11 13:52 |
| _Hicham_ | what I don't understand is that Debian is including mono in its repos | Mar 11 13:52 |
| who pushed that waste of time? | Mar 11 13:52 | |
| mib_2zrfik | oiaohm: who was the novell guy pushing mono on kde? | Mar 11 13:53 |
| oiaohm | There have been a few of the mib_2zrfik | Mar 11 13:53 |
| I remember noise about QT and Windows before Nokia ate QT | Mar 11 13:53 | |
| mib_2zrfik | I only knew about richard dale | Mar 11 13:53 |
| Eruaran | I can't remember the guys name | Mar 11 13:53 |
| Balrog_ | which repos in debian? | Mar 11 13:53 |
| oiaohm | Most of them are kicked in teeth because with java using gcj you don't need to use wrapper libs. | Mar 11 13:53 |
| Balrog_ | oiaohm: explain | Mar 11 13:53 |
| oiaohm | java build with gcj can interface with C++ interfaces. | Mar 11 13:54 |
| Balrog_ | yeah I know | Mar 11 13:54 |
| oiaohm | So developers don't need to waste time making interfaces. | Mar 11 13:54 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog : official ones | Mar 11 13:54 |
| oiaohm | Mono developers want the KDE developers to build interfaces for mono. | Mar 11 13:54 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog : the main repo | Mar 11 13:54 |
| Eruaran | The general response from KDE devs regarding mono has been: "why ?", "what for ?", "don't need it", "wont use it" etc... | Mar 11 13:54 |
| schestowitz | mib_2zrfik: you know who this is right? | Mar 11 13:54 |
| schestowitz | It's a Novell employee | Mar 11 13:54 |
| schestowitz | Jeffrey Stedfast | Mar 11 13:54 |
| mib_2zrfik | richard dale is? | Mar 11 13:54 |
| mib_2zrfik | oh | Mar 11 13:55 |
| oiaohm | What as basically been answered with added native call support to mono .net and piss off. | Mar 11 13:55 |
| schestowitz | And buddies like Miguel and Jo Shields | Mar 11 13:55 |
| schestowitz | Who lobby for Mono | Mar 11 13:55 |
| Balrog_ | yeah, Qt is very stable / works very well already | Mar 11 13:55 |
| mib_2zrfik | linux needs to kick assholes like them out | Mar 11 13:55 |
| Balrog_ | what happened to Qt-Jambi btw? | Mar 11 13:55 |
| oiaohm | QT-Jambi dead. | Mar 11 13:55 |
| _Hicham_ | Qt is pushed by Nokia | Mar 11 13:55 |
| oiaohm | Nokia offically killed QT-Jambi | Mar 11 13:56 |
| benJIman | Well they've stopped development. It is lgpled, someone might maintain it. | Mar 11 13:56 |
| Balrog_ | I sure hope so. | Mar 11 13:56 |
| Balrog_ | that would be a good alternative to mono, I hope | Mar 11 13:56 |
| schestowitz | mib_2zrfik: I don't think Dale works for Novell | Mar 11 13:57 |
| _Hicham_ | Qt is great, but it is not C++ compliant | Mar 11 13:57 |
| benJIman | oiaohm: There are already kde bindings for mono. | Mar 11 13:57 |
| Balrog_ | _Hicham_: explain | Mar 11 13:57 |
| schestowitz | There is one more guy who added c# binding to KDE (twice in a matter of months) | Mar 11 13:57 |
| oiaohm | Not offical benJIman | Mar 11 13:57 |
| benJIman | Jambi is also not java. | Mar 11 13:57 |
| mib_2zrfik | he seems to be a mono lover | Mar 11 13:57 |
| schestowitz | Jeffrey Stedfast works on moonlight now... it's forbidden from Fedora | Mar 11 13:57 |
| mib_2zrfik | yea, I remember you posted about him | Mar 11 13:57 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog : Qt has modified C++ to provide signals | Mar 11 13:57 |
| benJIman | oiaohm: Depends what you mean by official. rdale who works on them does the other kde bindings too. | Mar 11 13:57 |
| schestowitz | I've heard from someone in Red Hat.... he doesn't want Mono | Mar 11 13:57 |
| benJIman | It's only just getting to a releasable state. | Mar 11 13:57 |
| schestowitz | Even *they* know it's poison/danger | Mar 11 13:58 |
| mib_2zrfik | that's good | Mar 11 13:58 |
| Balrog_ | and it probably won't be integrated either | Mar 11 13:58 |
| _Hicham_ | Roy : RedHat doesn't want mono for sure | Mar 11 13:58 |
| Balrog_ | just an add-on | Mar 11 13:58 |
| _Hicham_ | but the applications built on top of it are a threat | Mar 11 13:58 |
| Balrog_ | _Hicham_: read this? http://doc.trolltech.com/4.4/templates.html | Mar 11 13:58 |
| Eruaran | The nicest thing I can say about Mono is that it years of effort wasted on an unworthy cause | Mar 11 13:58 |
| _Hicham_ | like gnome-do | Mar 11 13:58 |
| _Hicham_ | and banshee | Mar 11 13:58 |
| Balrog_ | Yes, but what about windows applications that I need to run on a non-windows machine....... | Mar 11 13:58 |
| benJIman | Because allowing .net developers to contribute to free software development is such a bad thing. | Mar 11 13:59 |
| Balrog_ | that are not necessarily foss | Mar 11 13:59 |
| mib_2zrfik | benji: it is, we don't want crap programmers writing crap code for linux | Mar 11 13:59 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: yes, but Red hat won't say it publicly | Mar 11 13:59 |
| schestowitz | It's possible that some people in Red Hat are cool with it | Mar 11 13:59 |
| schestowitz | Or maybe they don't want to start mono confrontations, I dunno.. | Mar 11 13:59 |
| Barlog, find the root of your problem and enlighten them about free software that works better | Mar 11 14:00 | |
| If you can't do that, let them provide you with a Winblows machine and the software they think you need. | Mar 11 14:00 | |
| _Hicham_ | Roy : RedHat have officially good relationship with Novell | Mar 11 14:00 |
| schestowitz | They must | Mar 11 14:00 |
| _Hicham_ | since they are both commercial companies | Mar 11 14:00 |
| Balrog_ | twitter: it's usually small stuff in that situation | Mar 11 14:00 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Mar 11 14:00 |
| oiaohm | benJIman: how many of those bindings that rdale makes ship with KDE. Answer none. | Mar 11 14:00 |
| Balrog_ | like CLI utilities | Mar 11 14:00 |
| If they won't do that, you don't need them. | Mar 11 14:00 | |
| Balrog_ | they write it in .NET because it's 'easy' | Mar 11 14:01 |
| schestowitz | That escapes an issue | Mar 11 14:01 |
| Balrog_ | twitter: I hope that were true | Mar 11 14:01 |
| _Hicham_ | .NET is not easy | Mar 11 14:01 |
| schestowitz | And their company, Novell, endorses sw patents | Mar 11 14:01 |
| mib_2zrfik | how hard is c? geez | Mar 11 14:01 |
| schestowitz | So they knowingly step on Microsoft's patents | Mar 11 14:01 |
| benJIman | oiaohm: Depends how you define ship. In KDE svn, tarballs on kde site... | Mar 11 14:01 |
| schestowitz | Which their employer 'respects' | Mar 11 14:01 |
| schestowitz | And pays for | Mar 11 14:01 |
| benJIman | I assume you're running /no software at all/ then if you're worried about infringing software patents. | Mar 11 14:02 |
| Balrog_ | _Hicham_: maybe it's not easy for you....but I hear different reports from others. :( | Mar 11 14:02 |
| Balrog_ | I'd be happy if they write in Java | Mar 11 14:03 |
| Balrog_ | maybe I should decompile the code and reimplement it in Java, then send them the reimplementation (if it's really important) | Mar 11 14:03 |
| mib_2zrfik | can you just write a program that automatically converts a program from c# to java? | Mar 11 14:04 |
| mib_2zrfik | that would be cool | Mar 11 14:04 |
| _Hicham_ | the .net should have been implemented in Wine | Mar 11 14:04 |
| Balrog_ | no, but there are decompilers for c# | Mar 11 14:04 |
| Balrog_ | so you decompile the c# app, figure out how it works, then implement it in something else | Mar 11 14:04 |
| mib_2zrfik | ah | Mar 11 14:04 |
| Balrog_ | (there are decompilers for java too) | Mar 11 14:05 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog : .NET modifies badly known languages | Mar 11 14:05 |
| Balrog_ | _hicham_: ? | Mar 11 14:06 |
| Balrog_ | 'badly known languages' | Mar 11 14:06 |
| oiaohm | Compare the two benJIman http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/KDE... and http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/K... | Mar 11 14:08 |
| oiaohm | Be aware both privide equal level binding coverage. | Mar 11 14:08 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog : I should have added punctuation to my phrase | Mar 11 14:08 |
| oiaohm | csharp one is broken a lot more often like to guess why. | Mar 11 14:08 |
| Balrog_ | heh. not surprising | Mar 11 14:08 |
| _Hicham_ | .NET modifies badly "known languages" ( known languages like C++, Pascal, and others) | Mar 11 14:09 |
| mib_2zrfik | probably because mono is crap and c# programmers are newbs | Mar 11 14:09 |
| _Hicham_ | .NET supports 24 languages | Mar 11 14:09 |
| oiaohm | The builder of that binding is a idiot. | Mar 11 14:09 |
| oiaohm | All the other binding use auto generation to create the binding. | Mar 11 14:09 |
| Balrog_ | heh. | Mar 11 14:10 |
| Balrog_ | and even Java | Mar 11 14:10 |
| mib_2zrfik | haha | Mar 11 14:10 |
| mib_2zrfik | told you c# programmers are morons :p | Mar 11 14:10 |
| oiaohm | KDE even provides a basic engine for build auto generation binding. | Mar 11 14:11 |
| Balrog_ | :/ | Mar 11 14:11 |
| oiaohm | C# gets a lot of why in hell are they this stupid. | Mar 11 14:11 |
| mib_2zrfik | one thing that I don't like about linux getting more popular is all these c# morons and stuff that it brings over | Mar 11 14:12 |
| mib_2zrfik | they are poluting linux's gene pool | Mar 11 14:12 |
| mib_2zrfik | and other windos losers | Mar 11 14:12 |
| oiaohm | To be correct 3 binding are crap. | Mar 11 14:12 |
| oiaohm | c# ruby and smoke all 3 are created by the same foolish developer. | Mar 11 14:12 |
| mib_2zrfik | linux should just be for smart people | Mar 11 14:13 |
| mib_2zrfik | ...like us ;-) | Mar 11 14:13 |
| mib_2zrfik | then we wouldn't have this mono nonsense | Mar 11 14:14 |
| Balrog_ | but then there wouldn't be market penetration | Mar 11 14:15 |
| mib_2zrfik | market penetration is poisoning linux | Mar 11 14:15 |
| mib_2zrfik | imho | Mar 11 14:15 |
| Balrog_ | don't we want linux to have more than 3%? | Mar 11 14:15 |
| benJIman | oiaohm: Depends whether you want to make an API that feels native to the target language or not. | Mar 11 14:15 |
| mib_2zrfik | well, the morons are poisoning linux | Mar 11 14:15 |
| mib_2zrfik | but they are only on linux because of market penetration | Mar 11 14:16 |
| Balrog_ | then don't let the morons infiltrate it | Mar 11 14:16 |
| benJIman | If you're not careful you end up with jambi which is not a java api at all. | Mar 11 14:16 |
| mib_2zrfik | balrog: how do we kick out the morons? | Mar 11 14:16 |
| Balrog_ | like they have with Gnome / Mono | Mar 11 14:16 |
| oiaohm | By trying to make it fell native benJIman you craete a problem you cannot avoid. | Mar 11 14:16 |
| oiaohm | Double defining of functions. | Mar 11 14:16 |
| oiaohm | That in the end equals sync errors. | Mar 11 14:17 |
| schestowitz | Novell's Jeffrey Stedfast calls Moonlight proliferation “Taking Over the World”: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/1... | Mar 11 14:18 |
| oiaohm | Generated takes way less work. benJIman. Its the reason why the java and falcon binding go months between alteration without breaking. | Mar 11 14:19 |
| oiaohm | Heck they are even the same binding source code between KDE 3 and KDE 4. | Mar 11 14:19 |
| Eruaran | No sense in reinventing the wheel | Mar 11 14:20 |
| oiaohm | rdale basically need to learn to stop reinventing the wheel. | Mar 11 14:20 |
| mib_2zrfik | it'sprobably a good thing he's a moron | Mar 11 14:21 |
| mib_2zrfik | prevents mono proliferation | Mar 11 14:21 |
| mib_2zrfik | crap, gonna be late for my statistics class | Mar 11 14:23 |
| mib_2zrfik | gtg, bye | Mar 11 14:23 |
| *benJIman suspects oiaohm hasn't actually tried to use the java bindings. | Mar 11 14:23 | |
| *mib_2zrfik has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") | Mar 11 14:23 | |
| benJIman | They don't actually work. Lots of issues with the garbage collection and qt signal/slot system. | Mar 11 14:23 |
| oiaohm | What java were you sing benJIman | Mar 11 14:24 |
| oiaohm | using | Mar 11 14:24 |
| oiaohm | Sun I bet | Mar 11 14:24 |
| benJIman | Of course. | Mar 11 14:25 |
| oiaohm | Yep dead in water. | Mar 11 14:25 |
| benJIman | If you suggest gcj/classpath I'm going to rofl. | Mar 11 14:25 |
| schestowitz | BT job cuts start to bite ahead of March deadline < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/0... >; AOL starts swinging the axe < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/10/aol... > | Mar 11 14:25 |
| oiaohm | Used different garbage collection engine. | Mar 11 14:25 |
| oiaohm | So you have major hell. | Mar 11 14:25 |
| oiaohm | openjdk build with the right garbage collection and it works. | Mar 11 14:26 |
| oiaohm | Nice little incompadidlity that drives people up wall. | Mar 11 14:26 |
| benJIman | There are several garbage collectors you can use. | Mar 11 14:26 |
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| benJIman | There's a new one in openjdk 7 now, not really relevant for this. | Mar 11 14:27 |
| oiaohm | I override it. | Mar 11 14:27 |
| oiaohm | To use the same as native C++ is using. | Mar 11 14:27 |
| benJIman | O_o | Mar 11 14:27 |
| oiaohm | The fault is nothing more than incorrect deallocation. | Mar 11 14:28 |
| *benJIman suspects ignoring oiaohm's nonsense is the best strategy and goes back to work. | Mar 11 14:28 | |
| oiaohm | benJIman: Finding the headache cause took a while. Fixing it correctly is another problem completely. Two different garbage collectors tracking the same section of memory and deallocating without telling the other causes all kinds of problems. | Mar 11 14:31 |
| schestowitz | "Google is pulling access to the XMPP API that allows third-party applications to send SMS messages with the Mountain View chocolate factory footing the bill, much to the annoyance of app developers." < http://www.theregister.co.uk/200... > | Mar 11 14:32 |
| schestowitz | Remember Erwin < http://blogs.sun.com/dancer/ent... > . He's poisoning the EU panel on OSS < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/27/mi... >. I've been hearing things... | Mar 11 14:33 |
| schestowitz | "What key problems should I be aware of in regards to SAP? We have an outbreak locally and I know little other than it seems to be doing poorly right now, something to do with MS (at least Microsdf people are there) and it is appears to be an expensive burden to businesses. | Mar 11 14:33 |
| schestowitz | "Maybe SAP will improve. (Ha.) There's no real reason for SAP: < http://news.cnet.com/8301-1350... >. There are already a lot of leaner, meaner, more efficient CRM tools out there, most of which are already open source." | Mar 11 14:33 |
| schestowitz | Channel 4 fails to open archives to Mac, Linux fans < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/0... > yeah, another victim of Microsoft's lock-in tactics. | Mar 11 14:37 |
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| _Hicham_ | Roy : SAP is still dominating the market, at least here in Morocco | Mar 11 14:38 |
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| schestowitz | The two bullies (Ballmer and Tucci) plan to exploit VMware (now headed by Microsoft employees) in the same way: http://www.pcworld.com/article/161051/relation... | Mar 11 14:47 |
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| schestowitz | *LOL* Check out the comments here: http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/arch... "Go Microsoft! This is the way of the future. I foresee a return to profitability. " | Mar 11 14:54 |
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| schestowitz | This is amazing: Microsoft is trying to sell hardware now (apart from making money from patent deals): http://www.itwire.com/content/... | Mar 11 14:57 |
| _Hicham_ | Roy : Microsoft have been selling hardware for a long time | Mar 11 15:10 |
| schestowitz | I know | Mar 11 15:11 |
| schestowitz | But they do more of it now | Mar 11 15:11 |
| schestowitz | 1. Microsoft stores | Mar 11 15:11 |
| schestowitz | 2. XBox/360 | Mar 11 15:11 |
| schestowitz | 3. Zune | Mar 11 15:11 |
| schestowitz | 4. Surface | Mar 11 15:11 |
| _Hicham_ | Linux companies should do the same | Mar 11 15:11 |
| schestowitz | yes. | Mar 11 15:11 |
| schestowitz | Some have tried, I think | Mar 11 15:12 |
| _Hicham_ | who? | Mar 11 15:12 |
| schestowitz | Open Desktop from IBM is a complete certified box with RHEL | Mar 11 15:12 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: some smaller companies too have tried this. Very small ones.. | Mar 11 15:12 |
| _Hicham_ | was it a success? | Mar 11 15:12 |
| _Hicham_ | i mean openbox? | Mar 11 15:12 |
| _Hicham_ | because Dell deal with Ubuntu wasn't that good | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | Just in: | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | Dear community, | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 11:16:51PM +0100, Peter Poeml wrote: | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 08:58:14PM +0100, Peter Poeml wrote: | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | >> > > I'm sorry to say that download.opensuse.org will be unavailable for some | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | >> > > time. | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | >> > > | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | >> > > Its storage array broke down once again, and we have no backup. | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | >> > > (We are in need of hardware since ever; if anyone would be able to | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | >> > > sponsor some, we would be very glad about it.) | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | >> > > | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | >> > > This affects stage.opensuse.org as well (same box). | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | >> > > | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | >> > > I can't give a timeline yet, but expect it to be offline for one to | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | >> > > several days. | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | > > | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | > > download.opensuse.org has suffered severe, but constricted filesystem | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | > > damage. | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | > > | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | > > We are working on a replacement system and hope to have it in place as | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | > > soon as possible! | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | > > | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | > > Please refer to using a mirror in the meantime - see | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | > > http://mirrors.opensuse.org/. | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | a temporary solution is in place now. It knows all mirrors, does full | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | geographical redirection and is reachable at | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | http://download.opensuse.org/ as usual. | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | The broken disk array is being worked on while we speak. A time estimate | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | is hard to give. We are confident that the replacement will be ready | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | soon but the amount of time we need to get it finished depends on the | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | amount of damage on the storage. | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | Meanwhile, the workaround should be 98% functional -- so you should not | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | have to worry. | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | Thanks! | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | Peter | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | -- "WARNING: This bug is visible to non-employees. Please be respectful!" SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development | Mar 11 15:13 |
| schestowitz | Maybe they still use reiserfs ;-) | Mar 11 15:14 |
| schestowitz | Zonker: | Mar 11 15:16 |
| schestowitz | "The repository inconsistencies last night were caused by a missing | Mar 11 15:17 |
| schestowitz | configuration on the system, which caused it to redirect requests on | Mar 11 15:17 |
| schestowitz | metadata to mirrors, which are often outdated. That is now fixed." | Mar 11 15:17 |
| _Hicham_ | http://widehat.opensuse.org | Mar 11 15:17 |
| schestowitz | "In addition, we're re-examining the openSUSE.org infrastructure to | Mar 11 15:18 |
| schestowitz | ensure that we reduce the risk of overall and unscheduled downtime. | Mar 11 15:18 |
| schestowitz | This will be an ongoing process, and we will notify the community of | Mar 11 15:18 |
| schestowitz | progress here." | Mar 11 15:18 |
| schestowitz | Ivan Krstić. walks way: http://radian.org/notebook/las... | Mar 11 15:20 |
| schestowitz | http://www.irinnews.org/Report.as... (Iraqi women suffering “silent emergency”, survey finds) "Some 55 percent said that they were directly or indirectly victims of violence since the US-led invasion in 2003 that toppled the government of former president Saddam Hussein. " | Mar 11 15:22 |
| schestowitz | Amazon Rainforest Carbon Sink Threatened By Drought < http://www.sciencedaily.com/releas... > | Mar 11 15:23 |
| _Hicham_ | the horrors that the US have in Iraq are uncountable | Mar 11 15:24 |
| schestowitz | Massive success story for GNU/Linux: http://www.itwire.com/content/vie... | Mar 11 15:25 |
| _Hicham_ | Ubuntu is very accepted in France | Mar 11 15:28 |
| _Hicham_ | even the french parliament moved to Ubuntu | Mar 11 15:31 |
| zoobab01 | Even the french parliament can watch WMV and violate patents | Mar 11 15:33 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: was Sarko too migrated to Linux? | Mar 11 15:42 |
| _Hicham_ | Roy : Sarko migrated to Clara | Mar 11 15:43 |
| schestowitz | if (user="sarko") then {reboot;} | Mar 11 15:43 |
| _Hicham_ | Roy : have you tried swiftweasel? | Mar 11 15:43 |
| _Hicham_ | Sarko is a little puppet | Mar 11 15:44 |
| _Hicham_ | he just keeps playing | Mar 11 15:44 |
| _Hicham_ | that is why he was put there | Mar 11 15:44 |
| _Hicham_ | France doesn't need a true president | Mar 11 15:44 |
| _Hicham_ | neither america | Mar 11 15:44 |
| _Hicham_ | who has tried swiftweasel? | Mar 11 15:45 |
| _Hicham_ | who? | Mar 11 15:45 |
| _Hicham_ | no one is in here | Mar 11 15:45 |
| *schestowitz goes through zoobab01's good links | Mar 11 15:49 | |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: I haven't tried it | Mar 11 15:49 |
| schestowitz | Swiftfox related? | Mar 11 15:49 |
| _Hicham_ | yes | Mar 11 15:52 |
| _Hicham_ | it is a project that derived from swiftfox for licensing issues | Mar 11 15:52 |
| _Hicham_ | i dont know why mozilla doesnt provide optimized binaries for linux | Mar 11 15:53 |
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| schestowitz | _Hicham_: yes, I remember the licensing brouhaha | Mar 11 15:57 |
| schestowitz | Swiftfox got some very bad press | Mar 11 15:57 |
| Balrog_ | by the way, Moonlight 1.0 does *NOT* rely on mono | Mar 11 15:58 |
| Balrog_ | it doesn't work with much though (a lot of silverlight stuff is SL 2.0) | Mar 11 15:58 |
| Balrog_ | Moonlight 2.0 (sl 2.0 compatible) **WILL** require mono | Mar 11 15:59 |
| schestowitz | "Jeffrey Stedfast | Evolution Hacker - Ximian, Inc." http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-devel@l... | Mar 11 15:59 |
| schestowitz | Oh, I see now...... | Mar 11 15:59 |
| schestowitz | He's been in the Microsoft cloning camp since the very early day | Mar 11 15:59 |
| Balrog_ | so yes, I can have moonligh [1.0] without mono | Mar 11 15:59 |
| Balrog_ | though it's not very useful | Mar 11 15:59 |
| schestowitz | He joined Novell as part of the acquisition of Ximian | Mar 11 15:59 |
| Balrog_ | moonlight * | Mar 11 15:59 |
| schestowitz | That ought to explain it | Mar 11 15:59 |
| schestowitz | Balrog_: yeah, like Moon Lie without the codecs | Mar 11 16:00 |
| schestowitz | Isn't Microsoft video (codec) what Silver Lie was mostly about? | Mar 11 16:00 |
| schestowitz | It has always been about media | Mar 11 16:00 |
| Balrog_ | but can't it be linked to ffmpeg? | Mar 11 16:00 |
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| _Hicham_ | Balrog : why not? | Mar 11 16:01 |
| schestowitz | Balrog_: it can. | Mar 11 16:01 |
| Balrog_ | I hear that ffmpeg 0.5 is out, with support for current WMV/WMA formats | Mar 11 16:01 |
| Balrog_ | and current Real formats | Mar 11 16:01 |
| schestowitz | Balrog_: a lot of what comes from Novell these days will be mono basd | Mar 11 16:01 |
| schestowitz | They make Mono Develop | Mar 11 16:01 |
| Balrog_ | http://tech.slashdot.org/article... | Mar 11 16:01 |
| Balrog_ | I know :( | Mar 11 16:01 |
| schestowitz | So they east their own dogfood, as the saying goes | Mar 11 16:01 |
| schestowitz | It's in Novell's interests to spread Mono | Mar 11 16:02 |
| schestowitz | It owns Mono | Mar 11 16:02 |
| schestowitz | It make PR from ito | Mar 11 16:02 |
| schestowitz | it's also in Microsofgt's interests | Mar 11 16:02 |
| schestowitz | And the bridges are people like de Icaza, Justin Steinman, etc. | Mar 11 16:02 |
| Balrog_ | certainly ... get people to use .NET which is poorly supported anywhere except Windows | Mar 11 16:02 |
| Balrog_ | I think the mac has a part to play here .... Mono for OS X *sucks*...no one uses it | Mar 11 16:02 |
| schestowitz | Heh. | Mar 11 16:02 |
| schestowitz | Does Apple have x-licensing for .NET? | Mar 11 16:03 |
| Balrog_ | therefore if programmers want to target mac as well, they can't really use mono | Mar 11 16:03 |
| Balrog_ | not AFAIK | Mar 11 16:03 |
| Balrog_ | they have their own Obj-C and Cocoa which isn't going anywhere anytime soon | Mar 11 16:03 |
| Balrog_ | (look at GNUStep...too bad the community is so small :( ) | Mar 11 16:04 |
| schestowitz | http://www.archivum.info/comp.os.linux... | Mar 11 16:04 |
| Balrog_ | what about that? | Mar 11 16:05 |
| schestowitz | Just found it along the way | Mar 11 16:05 |
| Balrog_ | oh. | Mar 11 16:06 |
| schestowitz | From the early days before I knew him. | Mar 11 16:06 |
| Balrog_ | I see. | Mar 11 16:06 |
| schestowitz | He entered the conversation in USENET | Mar 11 16:06 |
| Balrog_ | Also I really think apple isn't interested in .NET | Mar 11 16:06 |
| schestowitz | I didn't remember this because I didn't recognise his name back then (2007) | Mar 11 16:06 |
| Balrog_ | I see. | Mar 11 16:06 |
| MinceR | well, osx gets the official .net crap, doesn't it? | Mar 11 16:07 |
| Balrog_ | nope. | Mar 11 16:07 |
| MinceR | or only silver lie? | Mar 11 16:07 |
| Balrog_ | you can download and install mono or silverlight | Mar 11 16:08 |
| Balrog_ | but it doesn't include either | Mar 11 16:08 |
| MinceR | silver lie does include the .net framework in some form, doesn't it? | Mar 11 16:08 |
| Balrog_ | in some form, some scaled down version | Mar 11 16:08 |
| Balrog_ | but you need to dl it from MS and install it yourself | Mar 11 16:08 |
| Balrog_ | MS doesn't want to lock out 5-8% of computer users from SL-only sites :/ | Mar 11 16:09 |
| Balrog_ | if they did lock out mac users, SL adoption would be much lower | Mar 11 16:10 |
| balzac | I dropped a little stinger of a comment on fsdaily.com | Mar 11 16:11 |
| balzac | http://www.fsdaily.com/Business/Nove... | Mar 11 16:11 |
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| schestowitz | :-) | Mar 11 16:13 |
| schestowitz | Stinger about the Stinker | Mar 11 16:14 |
| _Hicham_ | Silverlie is all about .NET | Mar 11 16:15 |
| _Hicham_ | I attended a conference about it | Mar 11 16:16 |
| Balrog_ | sure it is | Mar 11 16:16 |
| balzac | I dropped a little stinker on them | Mar 11 16:17 |
| Balrog_ | I saw it | Mar 11 16:18 |
| Balrog_ | I just pulled out mono from my gentoo install | Mar 11 16:18 |
| balzac | dang, even gentoo has it? | Mar 11 16:20 |
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| balzac | what is the deal? | Mar 11 16:20 |
| balzac | what about debian? slackware? | Mar 11 16:20 |
| _Hicham_ | debian has it | Mar 11 16:21 |
| balzac | mono is a contagious pathogen passed on by physical contact | Mar 11 16:21 |
| balzac | who are the morons who decide these things? | Mar 11 16:21 |
| _Hicham_ | i dont know about slackware | Mar 11 16:21 |
| Balrog_ | gentoo has it if you set the 'mono' use flahg | Mar 11 16:21 |
| Balrog_ | flag * | Mar 11 16:21 |
| balzac | yeah, lets embrace a trojan horse, filled with patent threats... | Mar 11 16:22 |
| Eruaran | KPackageKit has started working :) | Mar 11 16:23 |
| balzac | I don't want to use such a harsh word as "morons", but really, it seems the safer choice not to use it, considering the ill-intent of the people funding its development. | Mar 11 16:23 |
| _Hicham_ | Linux are just concerned with compatibility with windows | Mar 11 16:23 |
| balzac | building bridges of compatibility seems to lead to dangerous compromises | Mar 11 16:25 |
| balzac | I think civil disobedience is called-for because of ridiculous laws like the DMCA and the mis-application of patent law to software. | Mar 11 16:26 |
| balzac | I don't think you beat these irrational opponents by engaging them, but by defying them | Mar 11 16:26 |
| balzac | it's like the "drug war" or the civil rights struggle. they are wrong and civil disobedience is the answer. | Mar 11 16:27 |
| balzac | the pirate bay guys in sweden have it right | Mar 11 16:27 |
| balzac | of course you also use clever licensing to subvert them - a very important field of work | Mar 11 16:27 |
| Eruaran | I think bending over backwards to be compatible with all things Windows can weaken the FOSS ecosystem since instead of building an independent and strong ecosystem of its own, FOSS may spend too much time trying to work with the Windows ecosystem | Mar 11 16:28 |
| balzac | i agree | Mar 11 16:28 |
| balzac | I was thinking that somebody ought to take a binary of the flash player or directx and then hack it and release a modified version. | Mar 11 16:30 |
| balzac | that's software civil-disobedience | Mar 11 16:30 |
| Balrog_ | the whole problem is that many programmers are too lazy to not use Mono | Mar 11 16:30 |
| Balrog_ | balzac: or release a binary-patch :) | Mar 11 16:30 |
| _Hicham_ | Balzac : better develop open source alternatives | Mar 11 16:31 |
| Balrog_ | yeah, that would be a good idea | Mar 11 16:31 |
| Eruaran | Even if there were no license or patent concerns I've never seen the point of Mono | Mar 11 16:31 |
| Balrog_ | but adobe can change flash as they wish. | Mar 11 16:31 |
| balzac | deface the flash player's identification info so that when you right click it says "flash is a parasite and it cause popups in firefox" | Mar 11 16:31 |
| Eruaran | Seems like a huge waste of time and human resources chasing after .NET | Mar 11 16:32 |
| Balrog_ | yes, unfortunately :( | Mar 11 16:32 |
| Eruaran | When the FOSS world has great cross platform tools already | Mar 11 16:32 |
| Balrog_ | like java | Mar 11 16:32 |
| balzac | even if you have popup blockers installed, if you have this little binary parasite, the flash player from adobe, your interface to the web is compromised. use it if you must, but know that you're being messed with. | Mar 11 16:32 |
| Balrog_ | even C/C++ is cross platform | Mar 11 16:32 |
| Balrog_ | what about Qt? | Mar 11 16:32 |
| Eruaran | yes | Mar 11 16:32 |
| Balrog_ | I use flash block | Mar 11 16:32 |
| Eruaran | Qt 4.5 LGPL | Mar 11 16:32 |
| balzac | well, I still want the content which may be available through the flash player | Mar 11 16:33 |
| Balrog_ | the flashblocker for safari is interesting. It uses a plugin that loads before the flash plugin and gives you a button | Mar 11 16:33 |
| balzac | so my best idea is not gnash, but to deface the adobe player and release the modified version | Mar 11 16:33 |
| Balrog_ | so the flash plugin itself is never run, until you click the button | Mar 11 16:33 |
| Balrog_ | much like flashblock for firefox, but implemented in a different way | Mar 11 16:33 |
| Balrog_ | many people feel that flash == ads | Mar 11 16:33 |
| balzac | Balrog_: that's probably a good idea for me. | Mar 11 16:33 |
| balzac | but I don't use safari | Mar 11 16:34 |
| Balrog_ | if you have firefox, use flashblock | Mar 11 16:34 |
| Balrog_ | looks the same to the end user | Mar 11 16:34 |
| _Hicham_ | svg seems to be a future alternative to flash | Mar 11 16:34 |
| Balrog_ | https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/f... | Mar 11 16:34 |
| Balrog_ | I sure hope it will get somewhere | Mar 11 16:34 |
| schestowitz | head of OSI in BN :-) http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/11/moonl... | Mar 11 16:34 |
| balzac | what do you think about defacing binaries and re-distributing them through file-sharing networks? I'm sure it breaks copyright law and maybe DMCA laws. | Mar 11 16:34 |
| Balrog_ | make a patch | Mar 11 16:35 |
| _Hicham_ | some interesting sample of svg have been done by mozilla | Mar 11 16:35 |
| _Hicham_ | very interesting work | Mar 11 16:35 |
| _Hicham_ | and very promising | Mar 11 16:35 |
| balzac | Michael Tiemann really let Microsoft have it the other day | Mar 11 16:35 |
| Balrog_ | I saw it | Mar 11 16:35 |
| balzac | I have more respect for the OSI as a result | Mar 11 16:35 |
| balzac | maybe they're not a vestigial institution after all... | Mar 11 16:35 |
| _Hicham_ | why chase flash? | Mar 11 16:36 |
| balzac | Balrog_: you just have to release your patch with an md5 checksum and build your reputation as a trusted source | Mar 11 16:36 |
| _Hicham_ | better create an alternative | Mar 11 16:36 |
| Balrog_ | yes. | Mar 11 16:36 |
| balzac | _Hicham_: don't chase it, deface it. | Mar 11 16:36 |
| Balrog_ | Flash is used too much | Mar 11 16:36 |
| Balrog_ | the iphone and other embedded browsers are helping kill it though | Mar 11 16:36 |
| _Hicham_ | defacing is not very polite way | Mar 11 16:37 |
| Balrog_ | (well embedded devices) | Mar 11 16:37 |
| _Hicham_ | we should be more civilised | Mar 11 16:37 |
| _Hicham_ | and not go to that level | Mar 11 16:37 |
| balzac | Put a user warning into the binary and re-distribute. That would be the lazy programmers way of protesting flash's hostile technology. | Mar 11 16:37 |
| balzac | brb | Mar 11 16:37 |
| Balrog_ | or create new platforms without flash | Mar 11 16:37 |
| _Hicham_ | yes balrog | Mar 11 16:37 |
| Balrog_ | (like iphone and android) | Mar 11 16:37 |
| _Hicham_ | i totally agree | Mar 11 16:37 |
| balzac | both | Mar 11 16:38 |
| balzac | don't forget civil disobedience | Mar 11 16:38 |
| balzac | breaking the law is important | Mar 11 16:38 |
| Balrog_ | then reverse the adobe drm scheme used in flash | Mar 11 16:38 |
| Balrog_ | not good enough? | Mar 11 16:38 |
| Balrog_ | pdf encryption has already been reversed | Mar 11 16:38 |
| Balrog_ | DRM ** | Mar 11 16:38 |
| Balrog_ | in the US that would be breaking the law :P | Mar 11 16:39 |
| _Hicham_ | we should build alternative steaming technologies | Mar 11 16:40 |
| _Hicham_ | and do a marketing campaign | Mar 11 16:40 |
| Balrog_ | yeah ... whatever happened to embedded-in-web-page video? | Mar 11 16:40 |
| _Hicham_ | like Mozilla's one | Mar 11 16:40 |
| Balrog_ | like what apple does with mp4, and what's appearing with ogg? | Mar 11 16:40 |
| Balrog_ | (in firefox) | Mar 11 16:40 |
| _Hicham_ | one Firefox takes over the web, Mozilla can put down any technology | Mar 11 16:41 |
| Balrog_ | yes. | Mar 11 16:41 |
| _Hicham_ | imagine that 90 % of web surfers uses Firefox | Mar 11 16:42 |
| Balrog_ | how does ogg compare to h.264/mpeg-4 quality-wise? | Mar 11 16:42 |
| _Hicham_ | and one day Mozilla decided to stop supporting Flash | Mar 11 16:42 |
| _Hicham_ | just imagine that | Mar 11 16:42 |
| Balrog_ | except that flash is an external plugin | Mar 11 16:42 |
| Balrog_ | people will keep using the version of firefox that supports flash | Mar 11 16:42 |
| _Hicham_ | I know | Mar 11 16:42 |
| _Hicham_ | there is infinite ways to block plugins | Mar 11 16:42 |
| Balrog_ | how does quality compare between ogg and mpeg4/h.264? | Mar 11 16:42 |
| _Hicham_ | and make theme useless | Mar 11 16:43 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog : ogg is just a container | Mar 11 16:43 |
| Balrog_ | ah. | Mar 11 16:43 |
| Balrog_ | then vorbis is the codec? | Mar 11 16:43 |
| _Hicham_ | yes | Mar 11 16:43 |
| _Hicham_ | but it is not the only one | Mar 11 16:43 |
| PetoKraus | well, not many people use speex | Mar 11 16:44 |
| Balrog_ | well then how do the codecs supported by ogg compare to h.264? | Mar 11 16:44 |
| balzac | I'm excited about HTML 5 and FF3.1 | Mar 11 16:44 |
| balzac | There's an "illegal" app store for iphone users | Mar 11 16:44 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog : i didnt do a comparison | Mar 11 16:45 |
| balzac | we should be maintaining repositories of modified media players | Mar 11 16:45 |
| Balrog_ | yeah I know | Mar 11 16:45 |
| Balrog_ | it's not really 'illegal' | Mar 11 16:45 |
| Balrog_ | at least, in my definition of legality | Mar 11 16:45 |
| Balrog_ | though it may be in violation of DMCA | Mar 11 16:45 |
| Balrog_ | but then again, it may not | Mar 11 16:45 |
| balzac | DMCA is bullcrap | Mar 11 16:45 |
| Balrog_ | sure it is. | Mar 11 16:46 |
| Balrog_ | anti-reverse-engineering? that terribly stifles innovation | Mar 11 16:46 |
| Balrog_ | btw, iphone-dev team is very careful about copyright | Mar 11 16:46 |
| Balrog_ | they don't distribute any apple code, just patches | Mar 11 16:46 |
| balzac | why not redistribute their binaries? | Mar 11 16:47 |
| Balrog_ | apple's? | Mar 11 16:47 |
| balzac | yeah | Mar 11 16:47 |
| Balrog_ | you can get apples binaries from their own web site | Mar 11 16:48 |
| balzac | modified versions with user warnings | Mar 11 16:48 |
| PetoKraus | well | Mar 11 16:48 |
| PetoKraus | i don't care about codecs, as long as they are 1) standardized 2) have free implementation | Mar 11 16:48 |
| PetoKraus | h.264 has -> i have got no problem with that | Mar 11 16:48 |
| PetoKraus | patents? carry on, sue me. | Mar 11 16:48 |
| Balrog_ | yes, h264 has patents | Mar 11 16:49 |
| PetoKraus | well it's important to say | Mar 11 16:49 |
| schestowitz | it's more complicated, PetoKraus | Mar 11 16:49 |
| PetoKraus | has patents IN THE US | Mar 11 16:49 |
| schestowitz | They can sue a vendor | Mar 11 16:49 |
| Balrog_ | I use x264 anyway...much better quality then the official ones | Mar 11 16:49 |
| schestowitz | Like one that prepackages binaries | Mar 11 16:49 |
| schestowitz | Like TomTom | Mar 11 16:49 |
| schestowitz | So if you get no codec <x>, then you have no playback | Mar 11 16:50 |
| schestowitz | And you can't hack on the device, either | Mar 11 16:50 |
| PetoKraus | well sure | Mar 11 16:50 |
| PetoKraus | but there are two approaches to the problem | Mar 11 16:50 |
| Balrog_ | some h.264 patents by qualcomm were already declared unenforcable | Mar 11 16:50 |
| Balrog_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264#Pat... | Mar 11 16:50 |