12.28.08
Gemini version available ♊︎Tha*k You Too, Joseph
“Know what? Fuck it, and fuck you. I’m done.”
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Diamond Wakizashi said,
December 28, 2008 at 11:13 am
Who will tell us about the joys of using Microsoft’s low quality vendor lock-in garbage?
Shane Coyle said,
December 28, 2008 at 11:13 am
I had visions of fixing the place up in the coming year, in terms of it’s credibility, but I think it’s safe to say at this point that it’s time for me to hop off the crazy-train too.
This all way-too-closely resembles "Fight Club" for me – when we had folks in India being arrested over Novell protests, or whatever that was, I really had to rethink where this was all headed.
I was recently invited to take a look through the archives, and frankly – more often than not – the "peanut gallery" was/is right. I haven’t spent nearly enough time here to properly guide the site in the direction I wanted.
Lately, it seems the program is to eradicate all contrary opinion, even those who are armed with facts, and to cajole and antagonize them – accusing them of astroturfing or worse, all the while ignoring their facts until they finally give up and leave, muttering to themselves.
I wanted to take part in intelligent discussions on the Microsoft-Novell deal and it’s subtle (yet severe) implications. Guess I’ll have to go to slashdot for that… So, just pull my pic from the front page – leave my articles for the archives, although I suppose this comment will not make it through the new censorship policy.
Have a happy New Year to all, I’m going away until after the 5th. After that, perhaps I will stop in to see what y’all have done with the place.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 28, 2008 at 11:35 am
Shane,
The Novell deal has always been a controversial one and to expect no backlash here is to also expect no backlash from a site like Groklaw. Because Novell was ‘closer’ to the community than SCO was prior to the act means that there are some folks who are not sure what to think.
If we were not on target, then we would not have one of the better-known pro-GNU/Linux sites list us among top blogs of 2008.
Josh Bell said,
December 28, 2008 at 11:37 am
I’m done too. What this site/blog has become is contrary to it’s stated mission. It moved beyond that a long time ago. So long Roy, hope you have a nice life.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 28, 2008 at 11:40 am
Josh,
You’ve always just heckled this Web site. it’s not as though you changed your mind.
Ian said,
December 28, 2008 at 11:50 am
I don’t blame him or you Shane. It seems to me, most of the people who disagree with many of the messages coming from Roy don’t seem to be necessarily pro Microsoft. Actually, some do more positive work for free software in general than anyone else here. The general sentiment seems to be to throw enough crap against the wall and see what sticks, and ignore whatever doesn’t. It’s wholly black and white attitude does nobody good and the only redeeming value, in my opinion, are the comments and the actual discussion no matter how fruitless it is.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 28, 2008 at 12:00 pm
They are not pro Microsoft, but by failing to recognise how Microsoft tries to weaken Free software (e.g. by changing the meaning of “open source”, demanding payments for patents, etc.) they allow themselves to be led to the point where they actually help Microsoft cause damage. They just don’t realise it yet. Remember that EEE comes in 3 phases. The first one is romanticism.
True, and we don’t censor comments, despite some readers’ suggestions that we do. Groklaw, on the other hand, does censor comments and PJ advised me to do the same here (but I don’t, because I’m no Beranger and I’m open to discussion).
There are some characters here who come only to attack readers and messengers. Their intention is to have others agonise and to make things unpleasant for everyone.
AlexH said,
December 28, 2008 at 12:03 pm
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; there are occasionally stories on here which warrant more attention, even if it’s just a retread of what an IT new site is running. Patents being an obvious example.
But there is so much dross and so many attacks on minorities in the free software community, I do wish that would stop. You can believe that Mono isn’t going to eat people’s babies without being a Microsoft “shill”.
I’m sad to see Shane go. I remember a number of recent converations we’ve had and I would have liked to see more articles from someone other than Roy. With just Roy reposting stuff, it is a blog which just tries to achieve quantity by reposting anything matching a few keywords. People can use Google Alerts and get the exact same stuff.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 28, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Where and when did I repost anything?
AlexH said,
December 28, 2008 at 12:35 pm
You rarely research anything, Roy – most of what you post is a repost of something else in some smaller or larger amount; be it all repost (the links articles, the videos, the quote of someone else’s article) or minor repost (some small part of text in a wider piece of commentary and/or opinion). It’s clear to see that even from this article, which is just a repost.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 28, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Well, it’s not an article.
AlexH said,
December 28, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Oh yes, “blog post”, because that makes it ok.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 28, 2008 at 3:18 pm
The style is informal.
By the way, we’ve received so much comment spam recently (over 500 a day) and it took too long to check, so I disabled new comments for posts before Xmas. I hope Shane won’t mind.
G. Michaels said,
December 28, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Judging from what he just said, I don’t think he will. At all.
Is this the point where you start insinuating he might work for Microsoft, invoke glitzy-sounding quotes, call him a shill and a heckler and unleash your attack poodles on him, or does that come later? Funny red text cannot be far behind
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
Dan O'Brian said,
December 28, 2008 at 8:01 pm
I think it’s far more likely that you disabled comments on those posts because you were proven incorrect and decided you had to prevent any further embarrassment.
Dan O'Brian said,
December 28, 2008 at 8:02 pm
(FWIW, Shane’s comment above seems to align with what I’ve seen on this site as well – pretty amusing that Shane used to be on your side when he started this site – now even he thinks you’re a joke, Roy.)
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 28, 2008 at 8:17 pm
No, the comments were disabled because I spent almost an hour a week wading through spam.
As for Shane, he too was attacked by readers who cursed back in the early days. There is no way to run such a site with such a statement and name without a level of friction.
G. Michaels said,
December 28, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Yes well, that’s certainly one way to spin it.
I am left wondering though, why he didn’t do this through an email or some other sort of private communication instead of a very public statement?
I can almost picture you desperately pulling up the WP admin interface to check the IP address on that post and suddenly realizing your worst fear
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
twitter said,
December 29, 2008 at 12:43 am
Check the IP address? That’s a good idea because Shane’s post looks like a fake. I would have expected something more constructive than “the hecklers are right” from an editor of this site. You know, details about what they are right about. This bit is especially crazy:
Novell had people in India arrested, not Boycott Novell, of course. If that really is you Shane, shame on yourself for not paying enough attention to Roy to be able to understand him before condeming him. Roy has made this place a real resource and deserves better than this.
Todd Razuri said,
December 29, 2008 at 2:22 am
It must take a *lot* of nerve for you to come in here and presume to tell people about fakes and the like.
And I don’t see how that comment was condemning anything. You and Roy really need to get over yourselves. The credibility of this site is going down the drain fast, along with the traffic I’m sure.
stevetheFLY said,
December 29, 2008 at 7:26 am
twitter’s comment really proves Shane right. This site has been doing the cause it was started for a disservice for a long time. And Roy’s personality is to blame for that.
Note: comment has been flagged for arriving from an incarnation of a known (eet), pseudonymous, forever-nymshifting, abusive Internet troll that posts from open proxies and relays around the world.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 29, 2008 at 9:05 am
@Todd Razuri, twitter:
No, it’s not a fake. Shane and I will discuss it by E-mail.
Just some minor clarifications/corrections:
* There is no moderation policy and we never deleted comments (a few were delayed because they were in the filter).
* The protest in India had nothing to do with us. I didn’t even know about until after it had happened.
I understand that running this site comes with a degree of liability, so I can understand why Shane feels this way. If you look at Groklaw’s members-only post (in the front page), then you’ll see that PJ had similar concerns. She hasn’t posted in almost one month.
Shane Coyle said,
December 29, 2008 at 9:48 am
Running to airport, but some clarifications – firstly, my sense of humor doesn’t port well to text – it is very dry, the fight club / india protest things were tongue-in-cheek (and I never meant to imply that ‘we – BN’ had the people arrested, I sometimes poorly sentences construct.
Liability concerns aside, of which there are many, this post in particular seemed to exemplify how this site has degenerated more into personal attacks and arguments in both directions than substantive discussions on the issues.
Maybe I just desperately need a vacation. See y’all on the 5th (and it is me ).
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 29, 2008 at 9:56 am
Shane, point well taken. This post was redundant in hindsight.
twitter said,
December 29, 2008 at 10:48 am
Coverage of the India protests was excellent and just the sort of thing this site should be about. Novell was caught deceptively subverting a free software conference and then the protesters were rough handled and arrested. Boycot Novell helped to embarrass those responsible by talking to those involved and documenting the events. The protesters also got useful information and artwork from Boycott Novell.
Have a good time on vacation Shane, I hope it gives you the reset you need to recognize the Slog against BN. When you come back, try hanging out in IRC where the real discussion and back and forth takes place. Hecklers get the boot there and the discusions are sane and friendly without them. You can look at the heckler histories to see that the abuse and nit pick to fact ratio is close to unity and from that you might understand Roy’s attitude. The more you read of Roy’s material, the better you think of his credibility. A casual observer is easily misled.
The solution to M$ heckling is not to shut down, it’s to publish more. The more sites there are, the more costly it is for M$ to spam them all. The defeat of Groklaw and Technocrat free those resources for attacks against Slashdot, Boycott Novell and other sites.
I can respect you not wanting to be involved in this Shane but I don’t think Fight Club jokes are funny. That is exactly the image M$ would like to project on Boycott Novell and free software advocates in general. Coverage of free software, the fight against software patents, OOXML and other corruption all point to the main thrust of Roy’s work and show that the site is positive reinforcement for the free software community. There’s no other site out there collecting as much useful information as Roy does. Why would you want to compare that to Fight Club – a hapless handfull of people beating the crap out of each other on the directions of an insane person? Because one or two professional hecklers say so?
twitter said,
December 29, 2008 at 10:50 am
correction: heckler signal to noise ratio is zero.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 29, 2008 at 12:18 pm
A few quick points:
1. I’ve just been told that PJ might permanently step out of Groklaw.
2. We don’t kick hecklers out of IRC. twitter was incorrect where he was suggesting this, but hecklers just don’t choose IRC as the medium for heckling.
3. I receive E-mails from very important people whom I can’t name. Although they never comment, they agree with what I publish here and commend it.
Here is is message I received half an hour ago. I don’t know how you’ll interpret it, but take it as it is.
“I read, first with alarm and then with relief, Shane’s recent posts on BN. His first post gave the impression that he no longer supports you and that he blames you for the seemingly endless threads which degenerate to insults. In that case, I would consider that an overreaction. It seems to me that someone probably wrote to him to complain, he scanned the archives and made an initial quick assessment that he thought your detractors were factually right on a frequent basis. His quick assessment may even be correct, but I personally haven’t kept track of that because it’s not important to me to keep any kind of score.”
“Overall, I consider that the hecklers sometimes make valid points but those points often do not invalid your overall argument. In those cases, it doesn’t hurt to concede their point. More often, they are only trying to convey their opinion and, when you don’t agree, they get frustrated and start repeated ad hominem attacks in hopes that some may be impressed by their sheer repetition and that you would lose credibility. They likely justify themselves by thinking that “the opposition is no better.” The trouble is that they cheapen their own arguments and they lose credibility themselves. You haven’t lowered yourself to their level, but their behaviour does cause a problem because it lowers the level of discourse on the forum.
“I wish I knew the proper responce. I was a bit heartened by Shane’s most recent post where he clarifies himself. I hope that, once he meditates on things some more, that he can have some constructive ideas on how to raise the level of discussion in the forum. The answer is not easy because there are some who only want to disrupt the forum and there are some others who have some vested interests and are not receptive to the ideas that Novell and Microsoft are behaving improperly, that contributing to Mono/go-oo is harmful, etc. Perhaps the answer is to continue to take the high road and leave the insults to others. Whatever you decide, I continue to support your effort.”
homburg-hansen said,
December 29, 2008 at 12:34 pm
As far as I’m concerend, these ‘important people’ might as well only exist as voices in your head. If they aren’t afraid to be associated with the stuff you write they should step forward and comment. If they are afraid the value of what they say equals zero.
My guess is, they are so utterly unimportant that you’d rather not tell.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 29, 2008 at 12:39 pm
There are many things that many people want to say but can’t. This site tells those things shamelessly, so they appreciate it.
homburg-hansen said,
December 29, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Yeah, I’m sure these ‘very important people’ are afraid that Bill Gates might round them up and shoot them or something…
‘Very important people’ and ‘afraid’ doesn’t go together well, does it?
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 29, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Discrediting by exaggeration. Well known troll tactic…
homburg-hansen said,
December 29, 2008 at 1:15 pm
By god, the reputation of this website is well-deserved. Everybody who disagrees with you is a troll, right? Well, good-bye to you and your website!
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 29, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Another clarification that ought to be made: In India, nobody was arrested. They were escorted out for a friendly non-violent protest where they used posters. That’s what made it so vexing. It’s about freedom of speech, not just freedom in general.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 29, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Well, I hardly believe you ever read the Web site because you never commented here before.
I also find it curious that many of those who come here with negativity are geographical neighbours of S.u.S.E (Germany).
Ian said,
December 29, 2008 at 1:39 pm
1. I’ve just been told that PJ might permanently step out of Groklaw.
The Eagles knocked the Cowboys out of playoff contention last night too. I don’t see how either are relevant.
At any rate, I don’t blame her. Groklaw had a focus and did a very good job at reporting on facts and deciphering much of the legal cruft for us layman. With SCO basically a smoldering heap and everything on that topic pretty much wrapped up or being tied off, I’d probably walk away too.
twitter said,
December 29, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Fake good byes are also a well known troll method.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 29, 2008 at 3:44 pm
ZOMG!!1 *everyone* is leaving.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)
“The key difference between a sockpuppet and a regular pseudonym (sometimes termed an “alt” which is short for alternate, as in alternate identity) is the pretense that the puppet is a third party who is not affiliated with the puppeteer.”
Chris said,
December 31, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Besides that the above comments show a lot about the state of this site, its “editor” and his shills, I consider it pretty funny that even your former colleagues seem to be fed up with the way you constantly bend or totally make up the truth while ignoring other parts just cause they don’t fit your argumentation.
But hey, you just annoyed one of “the regular hecklers” who dared to point out some incorrect claims and even tried to argue with you based on facts. No wonder he got totally fed up with that mission impossible. How the hell could he dare? Good job Boy!
Last but not least I had a good laugh when you pointed “twitter” to the sockpuppet definition. I mean, he is pretty much the inventor of sockpuppets. His trolling on slashdot is so notorious that every post about twitter (the service) has more replies talking about twitter (the troll)
See http://slashdot.org/~SockDisclosure/journal/214377 for details.
Will said,
January 1, 2009 at 11:56 am
When he comes back, will you publish Shane’s statement about why he withdrew his support from boycottnovell.com in full length?
C.J. said,
January 5, 2009 at 6:10 pm
I can understand Shane’s frustration. I’ve tried to have rational discussions with regulars on this blog and the tendency seems to be to rally behind anyone who hates “them” and supports “us.” If anyone asks why “we” hate “them” so much, they get censored, insulted, ridiculed, etc.
I think this site brings up some important points, but I think maybe there’s a little “aluminum hat” syndrome going on as well.
I hope Shane’s departure has a positive effect on the blog, but I have a feeling we’re in for more of the same…
Roy Schestowitz said,
January 5, 2009 at 6:16 pm
You know I’ve always welcomed feedback. Why pretend that you can reform Microsoft’s ways and it’s only those ‘zealous’ ‘Linux people’ who can’t behave?
Show me where I was rude to people who only come here to heckle endlessly. If I am doubtful about people who get their wage from Microsoft, who is to blame?
G. Michaels said,
January 5, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Have you noticed you have an unfortunate tendency to invariably respond to people with the wrong questions?
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.