02.22.09

^{Gemini version available ♊︎}

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 21st, 2009 – Part 1

Posted in IRC Logs at 6:57 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

oiaohm	So browser compadiblity no .net is not better.	Feb 21 00:00
oiaohm	If you mean intergration into ADS.	Feb 21 00:00
oiaohm	Yes that is simpler.	Feb 21 00:00
oiaohm	It is a addon block of code for PHP.	Feb 21 00:00
oiaohm	Basically python perl PHP all the open source web development platforms provide you with the means to simple control the html sent to clients directly.	Feb 21 00:01
benJIman	oiaohm: So does .net	Feb 21 00:01
oiaohm	Really.	Feb 21 00:01
benJIman	In fact more easily.	Feb 21 00:01
oiaohm	PHP where html is directly emebed in its code.	Feb 21 00:02
benJIman	There used to be at least difficulty doing using HTTP PUT with php for example.	Feb 21 00:02
oiaohm	Funny part need to use a different version of that for lynx	Feb 21 00:02
benJIman	Maybe you’re doing it wrong :p	Feb 21 00:02
oiaohm	No.	Feb 21 00:03
oiaohm	Lynx some versions don’t respond right.	Feb 21 00:03
oiaohm	to http put data.	Feb 21 00:03
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benJIman	Embedding code in the html doesn’t mean you have more control. Generally separation of concerns is better.	Feb 21 00:03
oiaohm	Really no it is not better.	Feb 21 00:04
oiaohm	Reason you have two files you have to compare when working out a bug compared to 1.	Feb 21 00:04
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oiaohm	Least numbers of files wins.	Feb 21 00:04
Balrog	can’t you do separation of code with PHP ?	Feb 21 00:04
Balrog	(I’m sure you can with some of the other open platforms available)	Feb 21 00:05
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oiaohm	You can stack php on php yes.	Feb 21 00:05
oiaohm	But when you get down to what is sent to browsers good coders will do all that code in combinde form.	Feb 21 00:06
schestowitz	Someone has just told me: “this is not really an recognized authority. btw http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/200… “	Feb 21 00:06
oiaohm	Just due to the debuging time it saves.	Feb 21 00:06
schestowitz	This is not good for SUSE	Feb 21 00:06
schestowitz	And the author is a buddy of Miguel, apparently.	Feb 21 00:06
schestowitz	Maybe just know to him and nothing more, who knows..?	Feb 21 00:07
oiaohm	LOL asp.net does not detect Linux.	Feb 21 00:07
oiaohm	It tells me to install silverlight on debian.	Feb 21 00:07
Balrog	schestowitz: how would that be?	Feb 21 00:07
Balrog	silverlight? there’s moonlight	Feb 21 00:07
Balrog	doesn’t even work 1/2 the time	Feb 21 00:07
oiaohm	It says silverlight	Feb 21 00:08
Balrog	so it’s useless for my purposes	Feb 21 00:08
oiaohm	No mention of moonlight at all.	Feb 21 00:08
Balrog	yeah … wonder if it detects iphone	Feb 21 00:08
schestowitz	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/20… (UK boffin: Social networking causes cancer, heart attacks, lupus, dementia…)	Feb 21 00:08
Balrog	(which has no plugins)	Feb 21 00:08
oiaohm	Not a good sign when a site for building web sites cannot detect web browers correctly.	Feb 21 00:08
Balrog	or for that matter, push unnecessary plugins	Feb 21 00:09
schestowitz	More craziness. First nmap, now this.. State bill would turn RFID researchers into felons < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/20/… >	Feb 21 00:09
Balrog	plugins tend to be a great big security hole	Feb 21 00:09
Balrog	schestowitz: nmap? in Germany you mean?	Feb 21 00:09
Balrog	security by obscurity	Feb 21 00:10
Balrog	terrible	Feb 21 00:10
Balrog	and in the US D:	Feb 21 00:10
schestowitz	Windows 7 on the (Too) Fast Track < http://www.pcworld.com/article/159941… >	Feb 21 00:10
oiaohm	Yet you like using .net	Feb 21 00:10
schestowitz	“Is Microsoft cutting corners in the rush to market?”	Feb 21 00:10
schestowitz	Balrog: UK too	Feb 21 00:11
Balrog	I’m no fan of .NET	Feb 21 00:11
Balrog	at all	Feb 21 00:11
schestowitz	openbenJIman is a .net fan	Feb 21 00:11
Balrog	oh.	Feb 21 00:11
Balrog	I see	Feb 21 00:11
Balrog	what about Java? Yes, it’s overused, but it works and it’s open	Feb 21 00:11
twitter	Glad to see you getting some use out of that image.	Feb 21 00:11
Balrog	(meaning Java server)	Feb 21 00:12
benJIman	Balrog: I prefer java.	Feb 21 00:12
twitter	Just sent you another one and it’s parts. Don’t know if you need it, have fun.	Feb 21 00:12
oiaohm	Java is not the best but it can be aduited completely.	Feb 21 00:12
Balrog	it’s easy to write ….	Feb 21 00:12
benJIman	oiaohm: What do you mean by that?	Feb 21 00:12
oiaohm	Also you do have secoundary engines that will run java if the main one is broken.	Feb 21 00:13
Balrog	what I’m annoyed with is that it’s pushed so much.	Feb 21 00:13
schestowitz	“Wake up, folks. It’s all been a big lie.” (Vista7)	Feb 21 00:13
schestowitz	twitter: add that Randall C. Kennedy piece to your profolio	Feb 21 00:13
schestowitz	“And as for the public “beta” charade, more than one person has accused Microsoft of using the threat of limited availability and a fixed cut-off date as a kind of PR stunt, a way to generate buzz by showing how much pent-up demand exists for their new baby.”	Feb 21 00:13
schestowitz	“Development team responses like “won’t fix” or “by design” seem to be the the norm for even serious issues, leading many testers to conclude that the product was feature complete (i.e. no longer subject to significant modification based on tester input) long before they received their first code drop.”	Feb 21 00:13
Balrog	I saw that	Feb 21 00:14
benJIman	Of course that never happens with free software.	Feb 21 00:14
Balrog	well, if it happens in free software, YOU can fix it yourself.	Feb 21 00:15
Balrog	not so with closed software	Feb 21 00:15
benJIman	Quite.	Feb 21 00:15
benJIman	Which is why I use free softare	Feb 21 00:15
Balrog	it may be hard to do so, but it’s interesting to note the number of patches to free software that Gentoo applies	Feb 21 00:15
Balrog	(to fix various things)	Feb 21 00:15
benJIman	They should be pushed upstream where sensible.	Feb 21 00:16
Balrog	yes.	Feb 21 00:16
Balrog	a good number of the patches are fixes for the gentoo build system	Feb 21 00:16
Balrog	but many add functionality / fix stuff	Feb 21 00:16
Balrog	You heard of the mess with the Ion window manager?	Feb 21 00:17
Balrog	(back in 07)	Feb 21 00:17
oiaohm	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coverity benJIman tools like this can be run everywhere accross java. There are other tools that run accross php python and perl as well. Java still had the annoyance of .net you need the source code to scan it.	Feb 21 00:18
benJIman	oiaohm: Findbugs is pretty good for java and free.	Feb 21 00:18
Balrog	yeah. Java does run faster though…right?	Feb 21 00:18
oiaohm	Depends.	Feb 21 00:18
oiaohm	gcj or jit Balrog	Feb 21 00:18
Balrog	?	Feb 21 00:19
oiaohm	You will find some java applications like on or the other.	Feb 21 00:19
Balrog	I see.	Feb 21 00:19
Balrog	the newer jit uses HotSpot.	Feb 21 00:19
oiaohm	Hotspot works will on predictable things.	Feb 21 00:19
oiaohm	gcj does nice general optimisation.	Feb 21 00:19
oiaohm	Ie stuff that will be getting lots of random data feeds into gcj will win.	Feb 21 00:20
Balrog	I see.	Feb 21 00:20
Balrog	gcj is tricky to set up in my experience	Feb 21 00:20
oiaohm	Yes	Feb 21 00:20
oiaohm	It really comes down to how much you need performance.	Feb 21 00:21
schestowitz	Troubling times for OpenSUSE < http://www.itwire.com/content/view/23388/1090/ >	Feb 21 00:21
schestowitz	oiaohm: just don’t cite Fortify (MS partner)	Feb 21 00:22
Balrog	…Fortify…?	Feb 21 00:22
benJIman	oiaohm: Oh really?	Feb 21 00:22
benJIman	oiaohm: In fact hotspot nearly always wins on all but very short lived things.	Feb 21 00:23
Balrog	gcj is nice because you can get machine language code… but that’s a different use	Feb 21 00:23
benJIman	Sam Varghese has an interesting definition of truism.	Feb 21 00:24
benJIman	Balrog: So does hotspot, at runtime.	Feb 21 00:24
benJIman	Just in time compilers have more information to base optimisation on than ahead of time.	Feb 21 00:25
Balrog	well, you may not have a JVM installed …. or you may not want to use it.	Feb 21 00:25
Balrog	it’s extra code with extra (possible) bugs	Feb 21 00:25
oiaohm	hotspot can shot it self in foot trying to make optimisation match a random operation feed benJIman	Feb 21 00:25
benJIman	Well yeah it’s useful for some embedded scenarios where it’s not practical to run a jit.	Feb 21 00:25
oiaohm	Ok this section of code has nto been called for a while it can be made slow.	Feb 21 00:25
oiaohm	bugger it just got called.	Feb 21 00:25
benJIman	oiaohm: I’m not sure you understand how it works	Feb 21 00:26
oiaohm	Its really horses for courses.	Feb 21 00:26
oiaohm	I know how hotspot works.	Feb 21 00:26
oiaohm	there are just some java programs that it don’t get along with.	Feb 21 00:26
oiaohm	The effect is performance improving and droping as it tries to improve the code.	Feb 21 00:27
oiaohm	Now for something you want running at a constant speed gcj wins.	Feb 21 00:27
benJIman	For a constant speed of slow.	Feb 21 00:27
Balrog	gcj is slower than equivalent c code….?	Feb 21 00:28
benJIman	Balrog: Depends what you mean by equivalent.	Feb 21 00:28
oiaohm	I have see one java application take 4 times long with hotspot to complete due to the stalls.	Feb 21 00:28
benJIman	There are a lot of gross generalisations here.	Feb 21 00:28
oiaohm	gcc it self does have a annoying flaw.	Feb 21 00:28
Balrog	which is…?	Feb 21 00:28
oiaohm	No link time optimisation.	Feb 21 00:29
oiaohm	That works well.	Feb 21 00:29
schestowitz	Why is Zonker so quiet?	Feb 21 00:30
schestowitz	Since the layoffs even.	Feb 21 00:30
schestowitz	Not a word.	Feb 21 00:30
oiaohm	http://llvm.org/Features.html Using gcc releation llvm java hot spot does have problems.	Feb 21 00:30
schestowitz	Phoronix has new gcc benchmarks today	Feb 21 00:30
schestowitz	http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=art…	Feb 21 00:30
Balrog	heh	Feb 21 00:31
*benJIman has yet to see a phoronix benchmark that isn’t hillariously flawed.		Feb 21 00:31
Balrog	when will they move to GCC4?	Feb 21 00:31
Balrog	true, but GCC3 is slower	Feb 21 00:31
Balrog	it’s like those comparisons of OS X on ppc harware back when they were using GCC2	Feb 21 00:31
Balrog	which has poor optimizations for PPC	Feb 21 00:32
oiaohm	Gcc did something stupid internally.	Feb 21 00:32
oiaohm	As well.	Feb 21 00:32
benJIman	At least this is testing actually different software, instead of the let’s test slightly different kernel revisions at i/o and cpu bound operations!	Feb 21 00:32
oiaohm	Information about finally binary sections of it travels in independant structs.	Feb 21 00:32
schestowitz	They defend BN..	Feb 21 00:33
Balrog	?	Feb 21 00:33
schestowitz	I totally missed that part (page 2)	Feb 21 00:34
schestowitz	“One must not forger the principle of cause and effect – the search for scapegoats must end at the company’s executive suite.”	Feb 21 00:34
Balrog	but putting out flawed benchmarks isn’t too good.	Feb 21 00:34
schestowitz	it’s actually not much of an insult that they blame BN for the failures of Hovsepian and chums	Feb 21 00:34
oiaohm	Balrog: ms has put out worse.	Feb 21 00:35
Balrog	certainly they have	Feb 21 00:35
oiaohm	Like comparing windows 2000 to redhat 7	Feb 21 00:35
Balrog	and bad studies	Feb 21 00:35
oiaohm	yep redhat 9 was released.	Feb 21 00:35
Balrog	(saying that Windows is less expensive to maintain than Linux)	Feb 21 00:35
Balrog	I’ve seen that in printed mag ads	Feb 21 00:35
benJIman	It really depends on the scenario.	Feb 21 00:36
benJIman	It can be, you could easily prove either with a study.	Feb 21 00:36
Balrog	well, I’m working part-time in IT at a university	Feb 21 00:36
Balrog	and it’s definitely not less expensive (time spent including) to maintain	Feb 21 00:37
oiaohm	Its like solarias vs Linux.	Feb 21 00:37
benJIman	e.g if you have a microsoft-skilled workforce windows is going to be easier to maintain.	Feb 21 00:37
oiaohm	If you are running many servers in one box solarias still wins.	Feb 21 00:37
Balrog	well, solaris isn’t that bad. True, you have to learn some extra stuff, but it’s ok	Feb 21 00:37
oiaohm	Now if its a single sever doing firewalling you would be basically nuts to use solaris	Feb 21 00:38
Balrog	the way Sun does stuff bothers me …. they can’t stick to openldap and try force you to use their ldap server	Feb 21 00:38
oiaohm	Task vs OS.	Feb 21 00:38
oiaohm	Sorry to say Sun LDAP server was designed first.	Feb 21 00:38
schestowitz	Watch the image at the bottom of this one. Microsoft.	Feb 21 00:38
schestowitz	http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009…	Feb 21 00:38
Balrog	maybe, but it sucks that it can’t work cross platform	Feb 21 00:39
Balrog	I’ve seen a patch (to openldap) to make it work and it’s only like 10 lines! (though that is for an older version)	Feb 21 00:39
Balrog	http://www.bolthole.com/solaris/ldap_patch.txt	Feb 21 00:39
schestowitz	This one’s still hanging about: Cuba to United States: We’ll Launch our own OS! < http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/cuba_u… > Bug WIN for Gentoo	Feb 21 00:42
oiaohm	Most OS’s based of Gentoo end up migrating to something else.	Feb 21 00:42
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Balrog	oiaohm: why?	Feb 21 00:43
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Balrog	because it changes too often?	Feb 21 00:43
oiaohm	Mostly its package management system.	Feb 21 00:43
Balrog	I think its package manager is very good	Feb 21 00:44
Balrog	yeah, it’s tricky to work with, but allows for total control	Feb 21 00:44
oiaohm	Total control bit.	Feb 21 00:44
oiaohm	Most users + that equals big problems lot of support calls.	Feb 21 00:44
Balrog	true.	Feb 21 00:44
Balrog	Fedora or Debian are probably better choices to start with	Feb 21 00:44
oiaohm	No centos not fedora	Feb 21 00:45
oiaohm	Fedora too much lets test this and hope user don’t suffer OS.	Feb 21 00:45
Balrog	why not fedora? moves too fast?	Feb 21 00:45
oiaohm	Fedora is mostly used by redhat to test applications	Feb 21 00:45
Balrog	the university uses fedora and it works well	Feb 21 00:45
oiaohm	I have had all kinds of evil from fedora	Feb 21 00:45
oiaohm	From ldap servers that don’t run.	Feb 21 00:46
oiaohm	To dhcp servers that loss track of IP handed out.	Feb 21 00:46
oiaohm	centos is a sorted form of Fedora.	Feb 21 00:46
oiaohm	Yep that broken dont ship that out.	Feb 21 00:46
schestowitz	Balrog: they use Entropy of sabayon)	Feb 21 00:47
Balrog	Fedora 9 was a mess, I heard	Feb 21 00:47
oiaohm	Also if you want to minorlly scare you self with warning messages.	Feb 21 00:47
oiaohm	Build Fedora’s kernel from source.	Feb 21 00:48
Balrog	heh	Feb 21 00:48
oiaohm	Then build kernel.org version.	Feb 21 00:48
Balrog	what messy stuff do they do?	Feb 21 00:48
Balrog	you mean with no patches?	Feb 21 00:48
Balrog	kernel.org is official right?	Feb 21 00:48
oiaohm	Fedora kernel puts out about 20000 warning messages due to the patches they applied.	Feb 21 00:48
schestowitz	For server, just go with centos	Feb 21 00:48
Balrog	heh	Feb 21 00:48
oiaohm	Yep poor quality control on included patches effect fedora badly.	Feb 21 00:49
Balrog	interesting. Where I’m at they use fedora (true, 7, not the latest) and it works well	Feb 21 00:49
schestowitz	It’s a fast cycle	Feb 21 00:49
schestowitz	6 months	Feb 21 00:49
schestowitz	Let’s see Apple or Microsoft do this	Feb 21 00:49
benJIman	Fedora has a strong emphasis on using the latest upstream without patching.	Feb 21 00:49
Balrog	true. Isn’t Ubuntu 6-months?	Feb 21 00:49
oiaohm	Fedora 4 was also stable.	Feb 21 00:49
schestowitz	Not just some service pack slapped together once in 1-2 years	Feb 21 00:49
Balrog	yeah they use 4 and 7	Feb 21 00:49
schestowitz	Balrog: yes	Feb 21 00:49
schestowitz	Fedora 10 is good	Feb 21 00:49
schestowitz	F11 seems to be going well too	Feb 21 00:49
oiaohm	10 a few odd ball services are broken.	Feb 21 00:50
schestowitz	F9 was problematic all along at the time, but they pulled through	Feb 21 00:50
Balrog	where I’m at, they do a lot of testing before deploying	Feb 21 00:50
schestowitz	I didn’t try it, but I read many reviews	Feb 21 00:50
schestowitz	I sometimes use Fedora	Feb 21 00:50
schestowitz	Works VERY well	Feb 21 00:50
oiaohm	Hopefully at some point Fedora gets true quaility control.	Feb 21 00:50
oiaohm	Not lucky.	Feb 21 00:50
schestowitz	oiaohm likes to exaggerate issues	Feb 21 00:50
schestowitz	After all, he runs a Linuxhaters site, so..	Feb 21 00:50
oiaohm	No I don’t run a Linuxhater site.	Feb 21 00:51
schestowitz	oiaohm: the newer oen	Feb 21 00:51
schestowitz	*one	Feb 21 00:51
oiaohm	Nop	Feb 21 00:51
schestowitz	The original one is so yesterday	Feb 21 00:51
schestowitz	No?	Feb 21 00:51
oiaohm	I go there and pull there logic apart.	Feb 21 00:51
schestowitz	Redux, no?	Feb 21 00:51
oiaohm	Redux hates me.	Feb 21 00:51
schestowitz	Oh, so who are you then?	Feb 21 00:51
oiaohm	So far he has not put up a single thing that passes logic.	Feb 21 00:52
schestowitz	Alex the Wintroll said it was you.	Feb 21 00:52
oiaohm	I run bits on secuirty design and basic design issues.	Feb 21 00:52
oiaohm	I hate windows mac and Linux in places.	Feb 21 00:52
Balrog	no one is perfect	Feb 21 00:52
schestowitz	Nokia To Stop Developing Qt Jambi < http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page… >	Feb 21 00:52
oiaohm	Windows lot more in secuirty.	Feb 21 00:52
Balrog	except that Windows is terrible	Feb 21 00:52
schestowitz	Oh yeah… Nokia was ‘good’ news to Qt	Feb 21 00:52
schestowitz	So Qute…	Feb 21 00:53
Balrog	come on	Feb 21 00:53
Balrog	Qt is so useful	Feb 21 00:53
schestowitz	Pretty too	Feb 21 00:53
schestowitz	I LOVE Qt -built GUIs	Feb 21 00:53
schestowitz	I used their IDE before… not much development as much as tweaking though	Feb 21 00:54
oiaohm	gcj cni interface you really don’t need java wrappers to use QT from java.	Feb 21 00:55
oiaohm	Yes a lot like .net native call feature. Except cni is older.	Feb 21 00:55
*Casperin has quit (“Leaving”)		Feb 21 00:56
schestowitz	GTK neglected Java somewhat	Feb 21 00:56
schestowitz	Mono and Novell don’t help here.	Feb 21 00:56
Balrog	true.	Feb 21 00:56
schestowitz	This is something we covered ’bout a year ago	Feb 21 00:56
oiaohm	Mono lacks native call support.	Feb 21 00:57
oiaohm	Really I think that is very intentioanl.	Feb 21 00:57
oiaohm	If they allows that on Linux it would fragment .net a way MS would not like.	Feb 21 00:57
Balrog	does java allow native calls?	Feb 21 00:59
benJIman	With jni or jna etc	Feb 21 01:00
oiaohm	gnu version of it does for AOT built.	Feb 21 01:00
benJIman	Not as easily as in .net	Feb 21 01:00
oiaohm	Niether jni or jna required.	Feb 21 01:00
benJIman	That’s not really java though.	Feb 21 01:00
benJIman	JNA is relatively easy to use.	Feb 21 01:00
Balrog	well in any case, what to do to move away from this SilverLight junk?	Feb 21 01:04
schestowitz	A Novell Vay is angry about the bosses taking vacations… http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/02/18/novell-five…	Feb 21 01:05
Balrog	all the video capture software they’re looking at uses it D:	Feb 21 01:06
schestowitz	Great picture: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/…	Feb 21 01:07
Balrog	it’s interesting that the ‘notification’ system proposed for 9.04 looks exactly like Sparkle for Mac	Feb 21 01:08
schestowitz	Got a picture there?	Feb 21 01:09
oiaohm	Of course.	Feb 21 01:09
oiaohm	ubuntu lead said copy Mac	Feb 21 01:09
schestowitz	Canonical’s April 2009 Surprise: More Than Ubuntu 9.04 < http://www.workswithu.com/2009/02/19/canoni… >	Feb 21 01:09
schestowitz	oiaohm: he’s obsessed with Apple	Feb 21 01:10
schestowitz	Shuttleworth can sometimes be a PR disaster IMHO	Feb 21 01:10
schestowitz	His remarks on Vista7 and OS X for example	Feb 21 01:10
schestowitz	By being respectful to the competition he belittles not only Ubuntu but GNU/Linux as a whole	Feb 21 01:10
schestowitz	He’s a bad salesman to tell you the truth because both Apple and Microsoft won’t do that	Feb 21 01:11
schestowitz	Microsoft still talks about Vista like it’s a wonderful product	Feb 21 01:11
schestowitz	Internally you see how they really feel (unsealed court docs)	Feb 21 01:11
schestowitz	Apple ain’t much better with their many defective projects at 1.0	Feb 21 01:11
schestowitz	But they have an army of fans of evangelist (paid for, i.e. AstroTurfers) to cherish the DisneyWorld that’s Apple.	Feb 21 01:12
Balrog	yeah, Apple did mess up with open source and all	Feb 21 01:12
Balrog	but as a whole, they’re doing much better than MS	Feb 21 01:12
Balrog	at least their software works much better then MS software :p	Feb 21 01:12
oiaohm	Apple has aways been more of hardware company.	Feb 21 01:12
Balrog	well, they have	Feb 21 01:13
schestowitz	I think of Apple’s marketing as “naked emperor” advertising.	Feb 21 01:13
schestowitz	Balrog: ms has 3rd-party apps going for them	Feb 21 01:13
Balrog	but without software, their hardware would be run of the mill	Feb 21 01:13
oiaohm	Ipods …. Really if Apple whent full open source.	Feb 21 01:13
oiaohm	Most likely they would stay in business.	Feb 21 01:13
schestowitz	The what?	Feb 21 01:13
Balrog	like sony: pretty but not really worth it	Feb 21 01:13
MinceR	gn	Feb 21 01:13
schestowitz	That’s utter B	Feb 21 01:13
oiaohm	There design guys do know how to make stuff look good.	Feb 21 01:14
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schestowitz	Hi, avuton	Feb 21 01:14
avuton	Hello	Feb 21 01:14
schestowitz	oiaohm: not true.	Feb 21 01:14
schestowitz	It’s marketing people	Feb 21 01:14
schestowitz	Don’t confuse the two	Feb 21 01:14
schestowitz	They assimilate imagery and products	Feb 21 01:14
schestowitz	Apple also polices how it’s products are presented and photographed	Feb 21 01:15
Balrog	Marketing is too important these days. But if you don’t do it, you’re get behind pretty quick	Feb 21 01:15
schestowitz	It’s all about some kind of glorification of items	Feb 21 01:15
Balrog	well before release, I’m sure	Feb 21 01:15
schestowitz	Like leaders whose people would always picture them from below to make them look mightier	Feb 21 01:15
Balrog	the ‘fans’ actually complain a lot though.	Feb 21 01:15
schestowitz	Look at APple ‘TV’ effrots	Feb 21 01:15
Balrog	doesn’t MS want that even more? though their products are terrible	Feb 21 01:15
schestowitz	No marketing , no go	Feb 21 01:15
schestowitz	Also a cr*p product with few featurs	Feb 21 01:16
Balrog	the ads?	Feb 21 01:16
schestowitz	LinuxMCE easts it for lunch	Feb 21 01:16
Balrog	or the TV?	Feb 21 01:16
schestowitz	And cheaper too	Feb 21 01:16
Balrog	yeah, until you install the hack	Feb 21 01:16
schestowitz		Feb 21 01:16
Balrog	which is soo easy	Feb 21 01:16
oiaohm	to be correct apple spends a lot of time on case design.	Feb 21 01:16
schestowitz	Marketing alone of the Zune must have cost more than the revenue	Feb 21 01:16
oiaohm	It would be nicer if they spent more on features.	Feb 21 01:16
Balrog	there’s boxee for apple TC	Feb 21 01:17
Balrog	TV *	Feb 21 01:17
schestowitz	With development and production costs, I can imagine the Zune lost 100s of $millions	Feb 21 01:17
Balrog	and XBMC.	Feb 21 01:17
Balrog	yeah definitely	Feb 21 01:17
schestowitz	XBox lost over $5bn	Feb 21 01:17
schestowitz	It’s not cheap bribing game sites	Feb 21 01:17
Balrog	heh	Feb 21 01:17
Balrog	so much for the high ‘sales’	Feb 21 01:17
schestowitz	oiaohm: features?	Feb 21 01:18
schestowitz	No way	Feb 21 01:18
schestowitz	In Apple world, 1 button is enough	Feb 21 01:18
schestowitz	Click to switch on TV	Feb 21 01:18
schestowitz	Click again to switch off tv	Feb 21 01:18
schestowitz	Pinch to infinge patent	Feb 21 01:18
Balrog	no, in the apple world, a trackpad with 10 functions is plenty :p	Feb 21 01:18
oiaohm	Catch you guys around lunch is calling	Feb 21 01:18
Balrog	this whole patent thing is a mess	Feb 21 01:19
schestowitz	Ok, cool.	Feb 21 01:19
Balrog	different people give different reports	Feb 21 01:19
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schestowitz	On same ideas?	Feb 21 01:19
Balrog	some reports are that the patent is only on how two-finger scroll is determined	Feb 21 01:19
Balrog	others say that it has to do with the ‘heuristics’ that determine the user’s intent	Feb 21 01:19
schestowitz	Oh, I didn’t look at the specifics	Feb 21 01:19
Balrog	yeah, would be a good idea too	Feb 21 01:19
Balrog	to *	Feb 21 01:20
schestowitz	Prior art is usually an analogous action that’s well… ‘analog’, not digital.	Feb 21 01:20
schestowitz	I guess people having sxual intercourse can be taxed by Apple too.	Feb 21 01:20
schestowitz	Did you see the Seinfeld episode the “Pinch”?	Feb 21 01:20
Balrog	well, I’m sure their heuristics can be patented (like what tech they use to decide whether to scroll only up/down or scroll freely)	Feb 21 01:20
schestowitz	Where George ‘steals’ Jerry’s ‘move’?	Feb 21 01:20
*Balrog doesn’t watch tv		Feb 21 01:21
schestowitz	I don’t anymore, either, except a few times a week.	Feb 21 01:22
Balrog	I see.	Feb 21 01:23
Balrog	Well I’d look at the patent’s specifics	Feb 21 01:23
Balrog	I’ve heard various reports. Some say it has to do with determining how to scroll	Feb 21 01:23
Balrog	Asus has two-finger scroll in the eeepc	Feb 21 01:24
Balrog	in any case, all the stuff I read is very mixed	Feb 21 01:31
Balrog	some say it’s “all-encompassing” while some say it’s specific	Feb 21 01:32
Balrog	so it seems that reading the patent would be the best way to figure out	Feb 21 01:32
schestowitz	brb	Feb 21 01:37
schestowitz	Novellers piss me off.	Feb 21 01:37
schestowitz	“distract” rather… attacks in the comments that need replying fasty	Feb 21 01:37
schestowitz	*fast	Feb 21 01:37
twitter	submitted Kennedy. Modded down, just like previous submission. http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=vi…	Feb 21 01:38
twitter	http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?…	Feb 21 01:39
schestowitz	See http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/20/nove…	Feb 21 01:42
Balrog	see http://i.gizmodo.com/5142445/disse…	Feb 21 01:42
Balrog	about the patent	Feb 21 01:42
Balrog	of course, it may not be totally correct.	Feb 21 01:42
Balrog	or unbiased	Feb 21 01:42
Balrog	for that matter	Feb 21 01:42
schestowitz	That post hit a nerve at Novell	Feb 21 01:44
schestowitz	Apple’s patent has hurt 2 Linux devices	Feb 21 01:44
Balrog	meaning Android?	Feb 21 01:44
schestowitz	Android reporrtedly rm-ed a feature and Palm was reprimanded.d	Feb 21 01:44
Balrog	I didn’t hear that Palm was reprimanded directly	Feb 21 01:45
schestowitz	I wrote about this in the patent roundups in BN	Feb 21 01:45
Balrog	Apple just said they’d ‘defend their IP from being ripped off’	Feb 21 01:45
schestowitz	Just in their meeting minutes or something	Feb 21 01:45
schestowitz	But maybe there was also direct coversation	Feb 21 01:45
schestowitz	Nobody knows..	Feb 21 01:45
Balrog	I don’t know.	Feb 21 01:46
schestowitz	http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry4019.html “These moves suggest to me that Apples fears competition, and I’m wondering why. If you put their products on an even playing field and let the buyer decide, in my opinion, Apple is going to win hands-down.”	Feb 21 01:46
Balrog	we’ll see when it all pans out	Feb 21 01:46
schestowitz	Mac fan by the way	Feb 21 01:46
Balrog	by the way, about the Android, they’d better do multitouch right if they do it at all	Feb 21 01:46
Balrog	we don’t know all the circumstances of the decision	Feb 21 01:47
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Balrog	maybe it goes much deeper than we think	Feb 21 01:47
Balrog	(possibly google’s multitouch sucked?)	Feb 21 01:47
schestowitz	How can it suck?	Feb 21 01:47
schestowitz	It’s a simple idea	Feb 21 01:47
schestowitz	It’s not even new	Feb 21 01:47
Balrog	depending on how you implement it	Feb 21 01:48
schestowitz	Combining ideas is not innovation	Feb 21 01:48
schestowitz	It’s progress	Feb 21 01:48
Balrog	yeah, pinch zoom and scroll and all that seem obvious	Feb 21 01:48
Balrog	but the technology that makes it work is what matters	Feb 21 01:48
Balrog	scroll and pinch and rotate to zoom are obvious IMO	Feb 21 01:49
Balrog	and can’t be patented per se	Feb 21 01:50
Balrog	how you detect the user’s intent (whether the user wants to click, scroll, etc) may be a different story	Feb 21 01:50
schestowitz	subpixel huntint too.	Feb 21 01:50
schestowitz	*hinting	Feb 21 01:50
Balrog	well who has the patent on that?	Feb 21 01:51
Balrog	not MS?	Feb 21 01:52
benJIman	MS have some for cleartype and apple have others too.	Feb 21 01:54
Balrog	I see.	Feb 21 01:54
schestowitz	It’s stupid maths	Feb 21 01:55
twitter	Anonymous and nO’Brain nit picking and libel, again.	Feb 21 01:55
schestowitz	Also interpretation of fingers is something that’s well… axiomatic almost	Feb 21 01:55
schestowitz	You’re blocking areas of science	Feb 21 01:55
Balrog	it’s weird how people argue whether Apple or MS does better with font rendering	Feb 21 01:55
schestowitz	Fencing against development	Feb 21 01:55
schestowitz	That’s why it’s called intellectual monopolies	Feb 21 01:55
schestowitz	It impedes competition	Feb 21 01:55
Balrog	heh. well we’ll see what happens when the pre comes out	Feb 21 01:55
schestowitz	Do something and then block replication, even if totally independent because it’s obvious.	Feb 21 01:56
Balrog	if it’s obvious, it won’t stand up in court.	Feb 21 01:56
schestowitz	The fact that Palm is pressure with words is enough to show what cowards Apple are	Feb 21 01:56
schestowitz	They shouldn’t do that	Feb 21 01:56
schestowitz	Microsoft did this to Linux too	Feb 21 01:56
schestowitz	Many times in fact	Feb 21 01:56
schestowitz	The dark clouds always over one’s heads.	Feb 21 01:56
schestowitz	benJIman know… his ‘buddies’ at Novell contributed to this	Feb 21 01:57
schestowitz	*knows	Feb 21 01:57
twitter	Software patents are always like that.	Feb 21 01:57
Balrog	software patents are a mess.	Feb 21 01:57
Balrog	“After long arguments, the judge insisted on an analysis of specific GUI elements that Apple claimed were infringements. Apple came up with a list of 189 GUI elements; the judge decided that 179 of these elements had been licensed to Microsoft in the Windows 1.0 agreement, and most of the remaining 10 elements were not copyrightable—either they were unoriginal to Apple, or they were the only possible way of expressing a	Feb 21 01:57
Balrog	on the Apple vs. MS suit	Feb 21 01:57
twitter	they should not exist. software is not an invention, it’s an expression of instructions	Feb 21 01:58
schestowitz	When I implement something the last thing I think of is “hey, let’s block others from doing this”	Feb 21 01:58
schestowitz	The guy who invented the web cookie said it took him an hour to do	Feb 21 01:58
schestowitz	It would take him weeks or months to get a silly pieace of paper on it	Feb 21 01:58
Balrog	yeah	Feb 21 01:58
twitter	The first thing people who buy code think is “let’s make sure this is ours and no one else’s”	Feb 21 01:58
schestowitz	So some other company obtained a patent on ‘his’ ‘invention’… the Web cookie	Feb 21 01:58
schestowitz	twitter: you should see Miguel and MS interview..	Feb 21 01:59
schestowitz	They say exactly that.	Feb 21 01:59
schestowitz	Hold on	Feb 21 01:59
twitter	people who buy code have a tendency to think of it as something you can put in a box and sell	Feb 21 01:59
Balrog	unfortunately they do exist.	Feb 21 01:59
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/19/eu…	Feb 21 01:59
schestowitz	“Also check out the bit (a few minutes later) where Carmine tries to redefine “open source” (”we recently open sourced the base-class libraries”), and later on protests (paraphrased) “Sometimes … you’ve got IP. It’s mine, it’s mine, I don’t want it to be yours. It’s my IP.”	Feb 21 01:59
schestowitz	“	Feb 21 01:59
twitter	there are many injustices in the world. they must be removed	Feb 21 01:59
Balrog	Well you can sell code. But if someone independently figures out how to do exactly the same thing, they should not be sued	Feb 21 01:59
twitter	exactly.	Feb 21 02:00
schestowitz	Carmine BTW is the Microsoft lackey.	Feb 21 02:00
Balrog	Closed-source has its place. But preventing someone from independently figuring out the same exact thing isn’t exactly right	Feb 21 02:00
schestowitz	Miguel is there too with them…	Feb 21 02:00
schestowitz	The whole ‘extended family’ (Novell&Miguel&MS)	Feb 21 02:00
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/u…	Feb 21 02:01
twitter	denying people the 0th software freedom is about as wrong as laws can be.	Feb 21 02:02
schestowitz	Balrog: it’s not just that. Sometimes patents stand in the way of merely making two thing work together… hence the danger of patent/s-encumbered standards (even RAND)	Feb 21 02:02
twitter	you have the right to make your computer do your tasks	Feb 21 02:02
twitter	no one should be able to tell you what you can’t do with your own code	Feb 21 02:02
Balrog	yeah that’s really bad. but if what I said was true (you can figure out how to do something, say reverse engineer a file format without ‘inside knowledge) that holds	Feb 21 02:03
twitter	you should be able to do things with your files and offer your code to others who would like to do the same or similar things	Feb 21 02:03
schestowitz	Case of point (found in news a minute ago): http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articles/2009/02/…	Feb 21 02:03
Balrog	or withhold your code if you want. But NOT prevent reversing	Feb 21 02:04
Balrog	this < http://farm4.static.flickr.com/303… > is a classic poster hanging in the server room	Feb 21 02:05
Balrog	or a photo of it	Feb 21 02:05
Balrog	in any case, it wasn’t good back then, isn’t much better today	Feb 21 02:05
Balrog	(isn’t any better, really)	Feb 21 02:05
Balrog	could say it’s worse today	Feb 21 02:06
schestowitz	Does this video work for you? New one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgPeO7IR-UQ	Feb 21 02:06
schestowitz	Firefox doesn’t load them out for no reason (never happened before)	Feb 21 02:06
Balrog	works here	Feb 21 02:06
twitter	clive is getting them	Feb 21 02:07
twitter	hmph, looks like Adobe has some holes in pdf. I’m more used to flash blowing things up.	Feb 21 02:10
twitter	http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?s…	Feb 21 02:10
Balrog	I heard. Adobe can’t even write code that works with a case sensitive FS D:	Feb 21 02:10
Balrog	well I’m out.	Feb 21 02:10
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twitter	Ick, why did you want to watch that Novell advertisement on YouTube. The main dude was a Windows user, or his computer looked an awful lot like like W2K or XP with “classic” GUI.	Feb 21 02:15
twitter	Nice buildings, beautiful people, butt ugly GUI. One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does not belong. Can you guess ….	Feb 21 02:16
twitter	hmmm, Saab is bankrupt. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b6e794…	Feb 21 02:22
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Feb 21 02:26:52 2009
*Now talking on #boycottnovell		Feb 21 02:26
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: “Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications” [publicly logged]		Feb 21 02:26
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Sun Oct 5 19:20:28 2008		Feb 21 02:26
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schestowitz	Ahhhh,…. I see…	Feb 21 02:30
schestowitz	As I suspected, Google breaks YouTube for use with certain plugins	Feb 21 02:30
schestowitz	The last time they did this, it took me like 2 hours (!!) to spot the source of the issue	Feb 21 02:31
schestowitz	This time it was faster	Feb 21 02:31
schestowitz	It worked on Konqueror, so I knew it was a plugin	Feb 21 02:31
schestowitz	Disabling FLashblock did the trick	Feb 21 02:31
schestowitz	And earlier today I did read about YouTube making some changes, I just couldn’t recall what they involved.	Feb 21 02:31
schestowitz	Saab goes sub… (sub-crime?) GM must be dependent on you taxpayers now… looted by so-called “stimulus” (Orwellian term)	Feb 21 02:34
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schestowitz	Yahoo buys something < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquir… > “SEARCH engine Yahoo which has been in the doldrums for a year after failing to take Microsoft’s offer of a buy out, has bought Softbank’s IDC outfit.”	Feb 21 02:38
schestowitz	Why the USA Economy is failing… http://webhostedservices.com/blog/?p=51 (“Something called GREED.”)	Feb 21 02:47
schestowitz	Ouch! http://www.aforgenet.com/ “AForge.NET is a C# framework designed for developers and researchers in the fields of Computer Vision and Artificial Intelligence – image processing, neural networks, genetic algorithms, machine learning, robotics, etc.”	Feb 21 02:50
schestowitz	Why was this in FP of FSD?	Feb 21 02:50
schestowitz	http://www.lessig.org/blog/2009/02/from_…	Feb 21 03:03
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