04.02.09
IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 1st, 2009 – Part 1
To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.
| Balrog | rms had iceweasel on his system if I remember right, but then again, I didn’t pay close attention | Apr 01 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| Balrog | he said that X crashes a lot on his (beta hardware) system, that’s why he uses text mode | Apr 01 00:04 |
| Balrog | also text mode is more convenient | Apr 01 00:04 |
| _Hicham_ | text more is very efficient | Apr 01 00:05 |
| _Hicham_ | I am glad Linux didn’t turn out to be like Windows | Apr 01 00:05 |
| Balrog_ | most of the time it is. | Apr 01 00:05 |
| _Hicham_ | with a graphical shell only | Apr 01 00:05 |
| Balrog_ | I know people who find gui mode more efficient though | Apr 01 00:05 |
| Balrog_ | so I propose a dual system, with all features exposed through both modes | Apr 01 00:06 |
| Balrog_ | OS X does this quite well, but even they don’t do as good as it can be done | Apr 01 00:06 |
| schestowitz | IBM might buy Novell (NOVL): http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/31… | Apr 01 00:06 |
| Balrog_ | that would be good…. or would it? | Apr 01 00:07 |
| schestowitz | I got totally distracted, _Hicham_, sorry about that | Apr 01 00:07 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: I run one server… but hardly so | Apr 01 00:07 |
| Balrog_ | though this is apr fools I think | Apr 01 00:07 |
| schestowitz | Check first | Apr 01 00:07 |
| schestowitz | Don’t be so sure. | Apr 01 00:07 |
| Balrog_ | it’s clear after reading it  |
Apr 01 00:08 |
| schestowitz | OK, that’s good. | Apr 01 00:08 |
| Balrog_ | http://zdziarski.com/ is a good site | Apr 01 00:08 |
| Balrog_ | this is an iphone developer with some very clear opinions  |
Apr 01 00:08 |
| Balrog_ | take a look at this, for example: | Apr 01 00:11 |
| Balrog_ | http://zdziarski.com/papers/senate.html | Apr 01 00:11 |
| schestowitz | maybe OK for Apple stuff.. I dunno | Apr 01 00:14 |
| schestowitz | I’ll probably finish watching the RMS talk tomorrow morning. now I just work on assembling links | Apr 01 00:15 |
| Balrog_ | no, he’s pro jailbreak and criticizes apple a lot | Apr 01 00:15 |
| Balrog_ | how has that been so far (the talk)? | Apr 01 00:15 |
| schestowitz | Pretty OK. | Apr 01 00:20 |
| schestowitz | I know this talk. | Apr 01 00:20 |
| schestowitz | Portions of it | Apr 01 00:20 |
| schestowitz | He reuses lots | Apr 01 00:20 |
| Balrog_ | heh | Apr 01 00:22 |
| Balrog_ | the questions were interesting | Apr 01 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Haven’t got to them yet | Apr 01 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Did they bother him? | Apr 01 00:22 |
| schestowitz | They did ask questions during the talk | Apr 01 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Same guy | Apr 01 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Very distracting | Apr 01 00:22 |
| Balrog_ | someone called him out on not speaking about fair use | Apr 01 00:22 |
| Balrog_ | (that was me ) |
Apr 01 00:22 |
| schestowitz | At thew end? | Apr 01 00:23 |
| Balrog_ | except for that time when a guy asked what is software | Apr 01 00:23 |
| Balrog_ | yeah, there was Q/A at teh end | Apr 01 00:23 |
| Balrog_ | it was something of an argument (about him not talking about fair use, etc) | Apr 01 00:24 |
| Balrog_ | schestowitz: you’re looking? | Apr 01 00:25 |
| schestowitz | Not yet | Apr 01 00:27 |
| schestowitz | I’m doing links right now | Apr 01 00:27 |
| Balrog_ | ok. | Apr 01 00:27 |
| Balrog_ | I see. | Apr 01 00:27 |
| schestowitz | it’s paused for days | Apr 01 00:27 |
| Balrog_ | (why does RMS often reuse his talks?) | Apr 01 00:27 |
| schestowitz | I have extended the audio system to the bathroom, so I can listen to some stuff while showering. | Apr 01 00:28 |
| schestowitz | Kind of like radio | Apr 01 00:28 |
| Balrog_ | |
Apr 01 00:28 |
| schestowitz | But more interactive… YouTube talks | Apr 01 00:28 |
| Balrog_ | cool | Apr 01 00:28 |
| *oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell | Apr 01 00:49 | |
| _Hicham_ | wb oiaohm | Apr 01 00:52 |
| oiaohm | Hi _Hicham_ | Apr 01 00:52 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : can I use ur name on my website? | Apr 01 00:53 |
| _Hicham_ | ie create : www.oiaohm.com? | Apr 01 00:53 |
| oiaohm | oiaohm is a global unique handle for me. | Apr 01 00:53 |
| oiaohm | So unless its something I am doing I prefer other people not use it. | Apr 01 00:54 |
| _Hicham_ | is it a trademark? | Apr 01 00:54 |
| oiaohm | oiaohm is also part joke ie oiaohm=ok i am over here mate/man | Apr 01 00:54 |
| oiaohm | I really should trademark it. | Apr 01 00:55 |
| _Hicham_ | otherwise I will use it | Apr 01 00:55 |
| _Hicham_ | and we will have trademark issues | Apr 01 00:55 |
| oiaohm | Why need mine. | Apr 01 00:55 |
| _Hicham_ | it is already known | Apr 01 00:56 |
| oiaohm | It took me ages to work out how to invent them. | Apr 01 00:56 |
| _Hicham_ | it is good publicity | Apr 01 00:56 |
| oiaohm | Me good publicity lol. | Apr 01 00:56 |
| _Hicham_ | u r already well known | Apr 01 00:57 |
| oiaohm | People who know me expect a verry particular person. | Apr 01 00:57 |
| _Hicham_ | so, using ur name will attract a lot of customers | Apr 01 00:57 |
| _Hicham_ | yes, that is why I am gonna use ur name in my business | Apr 01 00:57 |
| oiaohm | Attract a lot of hate. | Apr 01 00:57 |
| oiaohm | As well. | Apr 01 00:57 |
| _Hicham_ | why? | Apr 01 00:58 |
| oiaohm | I am liked and hated. | Apr 01 00:58 |
| _Hicham_ | everyone is liked and hated | Apr 01 00:58 |
| oiaohm | You really have no idea the toes I have stepped on with this handle. | Apr 01 00:58 |
| _Hicham_ | how much time did it take? | Apr 01 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Project leads of most anti-virus companies to start off with. | Apr 01 00:59 |
| oiaohm | Don’t particularly like me. | Apr 01 00:59 |
| _Hicham_ | why? | Apr 01 00:59 |
| _Hicham_ | r u against antivirii? | Apr 01 00:59 |
| oiaohm | These days yes. | Apr 01 01:00 |
| oiaohm | Important note these days. | Apr 01 01:00 |
| _Hicham_ | so u r against clamav as well? | Apr 01 01:00 |
| oiaohm | I support clamav | Apr 01 01:00 |
| oiaohm | I am always for good design. | Apr 01 01:01 |
| oiaohm | Most anti-virus software of windows is poor design. | Apr 01 01:01 |
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| _Hicham_ | did u work on clamav? | Apr 01 01:01 |
| yuhong | On the matter of cloud lock-in, here is an article. | Apr 01 01:01 |
| yuhong | http://smoothspan.wordpress.com/2008/… | Apr 01 01:01 |
| oiaohm | Normally finding samples for clamav and being in some of the design planing groups _Hicham_ | Apr 01 01:02 |
| oiaohm | I am not a coder. | Apr 01 01:02 |
| oiaohm | I am mostly designer. | Apr 01 01:02 |
| yuhong | http://smoothspan.wordpress.com/2008/10/02/cl… | Apr 01 01:02 |
| _Hicham_ | but clamwin lacks real-time scanning | Apr 01 01:03 |
| yuhong | What do you think? | Apr 01 01:03 |
| _Hicham_ | or on-access-scanning | Apr 01 01:03 |
| oiaohm | I did design a on-access-scanning section of clamwin. | Apr 01 01:03 |
| oiaohm | That has not been fully coded out. | Apr 01 01:03 |
| _Hicham_ | why? | Apr 01 01:03 |
| _Hicham_ | lack of resources? | Apr 01 01:03 |
| oiaohm | Front end on clamwin has to be replaced. | Apr 01 01:04 |
| oiaohm | To support realtime scanning. | Apr 01 01:04 |
| oiaohm | So yes lack of resources | Apr 01 01:04 |
| oiaohm | The back ground engine works. | Apr 01 01:04 |
| _Hicham_ | u mean to bring the notification system on? | Apr 01 01:04 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Apr 01 01:04 |
| _Hicham_ | but it is just a matter of integration with the shell | Apr 01 01:05 |
| yuhong | smoothspan suggests separating virtual hardware from the rest to avoid lock-in. | Apr 01 01:05 |
| oiaohm | Front end interface of clamwin is writing in python. | Apr 01 01:05 |
| _Hicham_ | I know | Apr 01 01:05 |
| oiaohm | With no way of responding to messages. | Apr 01 01:05 |
| oiaohm | due to its design. | Apr 01 01:05 |
| _Hicham_ | there is no bindings? | Apr 01 01:05 |
| oiaohm | no bindings | Apr 01 01:05 |
| oiaohm | Yes it has to be reworked. | Apr 01 01:06 |
| _Hicham_ | in MFC or Win32API? | Apr 01 01:06 |
| oiaohm | front end is wxwidgets + python. | Apr 01 01:06 |
| oiaohm | Way its coded don’t support it. | Apr 01 01:07 |
| oiaohm | also eats lots of ram. | Apr 01 01:07 |
| _Hicham_ | the engine or the front-end? | Apr 01 01:07 |
| oiaohm | The front-end | Apr 01 01:07 |
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| oiaohm | The complete front-end needs to be rebuild on clamwin | Apr 01 01:07 |
| oiaohm | Then real-time scanning can be added. | Apr 01 01:08 |
| _Hicham_ | why didn’t they use MFC? | Apr 01 01:08 |
| oiaohm | The engine is sitting there ready to go. | Apr 01 01:08 |
| oiaohm | clamwin was first designed for Linux. | Apr 01 01:08 |
| oiaohm | Not for windows. | Apr 01 01:08 |
| _Hicham_ | u mean clamav | Apr 01 01:08 |
| yuhong | No one responded? | Apr 01 01:08 |
| _Hicham_ | clamwin is a port | Apr 01 01:08 |
| oiaohm | No clamwin it self. | Apr 01 01:08 |
| _Hicham_ | clamwin for Linux? | Apr 01 01:08 |
| _Hicham_ | to scan Windows partitions? | Apr 01 01:08 |
| oiaohm | the front end dates from when clamwin was a pure Linux project. | Apr 01 01:09 |
| oiaohm | It was ported to windows. | Apr 01 01:09 |
| oiaohm | very poorly ported to windows. | Apr 01 01:09 |
| _Hicham_ | but not the front-end | Apr 01 01:09 |
| oiaohm | The front-end | Apr 01 01:09 |
| _Hicham_ | the front-end should have been coded in MFC | Apr 01 01:09 |
| oiaohm | It was not. | Apr 01 01:09 |
| oiaohm | It was coded in wxwidgets. | Apr 01 01:09 |
| _Hicham_ | that is the best choice I think on Windows | Apr 01 01:09 |
| oiaohm | Not really. | Apr 01 01:10 |
| _Hicham_ | or better WTL | Apr 01 01:10 |
| oiaohm | These days redoing it you would most likely code in QT | Apr 01 01:10 |
| _Hicham_ | why Qt? | Apr 01 01:10 |
| schestowitz | Silence Making People Nervous in Impending IBM-Sun Deal < http://blogs.eweek.com/storage_stati… > | Apr 01 01:10 |
| oiaohm | QT more flexable that MFC and faster. | Apr 01 01:10 |
| _Hicham_ | Qt faster? | Apr 01 01:10 |
| oiaohm | MFC is not that fast really. | Apr 01 01:10 |
| _Hicham_ | and WTL? | Apr 01 01:10 |
| devq | wtl should be faster than mfc | Apr 01 01:11 |
| oiaohm | wtl is faster but feature lacking to QT. | Apr 01 01:11 |
| _Hicham_ | lacking what? | Apr 01 01:12 |
| _Hicham_ | give me some interesting features that WTL lacks | Apr 01 01:12 |
| oiaohm | Have you looked at everything included in the QT system. | Apr 01 01:12 |
| _Hicham_ | I have worked with it a little | Apr 01 01:12 |
| yuhong | In case you don’t see it, I will post this again. | Apr 01 01:12 |
| *TinyGrasshopper has quit (Client Quit) | Apr 01 01:12 | |
| yuhong | >On the matter of cloud lock-in, here is an article. | Apr 01 01:12 |
| yuhong | http://smoothspan.wordpress.com/2008/10/1… | Apr 01 01:12 |
| yuhong | http://smoothspan.wordpress.co… | Apr 01 01:12 |
| yuhong | What do you think? | Apr 01 01:12 |
| _Hicham_ | but WTL is way faster | Apr 01 01:13 |
| _Hicham_ | that is why google choosed it | Apr 01 01:13 |
| oiaohm | QT has every feature you need audio processing video web download manager… Basically. | Apr 01 01:13 |
| _Hicham_ | i agree with u on that | Apr 01 01:13 |
| _Hicham_ | Qt is complete | Apr 01 01:13 |
| oiaohm | MFC and WTL is not. | Apr 01 01:13 |
| _Hicham_ | but it is not optimized for Windows | Apr 01 01:14 |
| oiaohm | WTL also is very Windows OS touchy. | Apr 01 01:14 |
| _Hicham_ | that is why it is best | Apr 01 01:14 |
| oiaohm | QT is optimised for Windows. | Apr 01 01:14 |
| _Hicham_ | Qt optimized for Windows? | Apr 01 01:14 |
| _Hicham_ | haven’t heard that | Apr 01 01:14 |
| PetoKraus | oh guys | Apr 01 01:14 |
| oiaohm | Yes heavly. | Apr 01 01:14 |
| _Hicham_ | better than WTL? | Apr 01 01:14 |
| oiaohm | It uses templates to do the optimsiation. | Apr 01 01:14 |
| oiaohm | Just like WTL does. | Apr 01 01:14 |
| _Hicham_ | but WTL reuses a lot of Windows code | Apr 01 01:15 |
| oiaohm | Same with QT. | Apr 01 01:15 |
| _Hicham_ | Qt have its own set of code | Apr 01 01:15 |
| yuhong | schestowitz: What do you think about the Amazon cloud articles I just linked to? | Apr 01 01:15 |
| oiaohm | QT provides template wrappers over a lot of windows functions. | Apr 01 01:15 |
| _Hicham_ | to provide platform abstraction | Apr 01 01:15 |
| oiaohm | WtL is also abstraction. | Apr 01 01:15 |
| _Hicham_ | WTL is Windows only | Apr 01 01:16 |
| oiaohm | Because no one have bothered porting it. | Apr 01 01:16 |
| _Hicham_ | but nonethless, it is abstraction in a certain way | Apr 01 01:16 |
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| _Hicham_ | port WTL? | Apr 01 01:16 |
| oiaohm | Or desining it so it can be ported. | Apr 01 01:16 |
| _Hicham_ | it would be insane | Apr 01 01:16 |
| mib_aai6yz | can the Conficker worm efeect my 360 if i play online? | Apr 01 01:16 |
| oiaohm | One of the projects around chrome is looking at porting it. | Apr 01 01:17 |
| _Hicham_ | porting WTL? | Apr 01 01:17 |
| oiaohm | Yep | Apr 01 01:17 |
| oiaohm | ATL under WTL is the bug bear. | Apr 01 01:17 |
| oiaohm | Not WTL itself | Apr 01 01:17 |
| _Hicham_ | Chrome on Linux will use GTK | Apr 01 01:17 |
| _Hicham_ | I have seen that on Chrome’s Website | Apr 01 01:17 |
| mib_aai6yz | So is there anything i can do to protect my 360 if i play online? | Apr 01 01:18 |
| oiaohm | Its really stupid really thinking most of the chrome rendering engine is in QT. | Apr 01 01:18 |
| _Hicham_ | they did use Qt? | Apr 01 01:18 |
| oiaohm | They used GTK. | Apr 01 01:18 |
| mib_aai6yz |  |
Apr 01 01:18 |
| _Hicham_ | for Linux, I know | Apr 01 01:19 |
| _Hicham_ | but no Qt | Apr 01 01:19 |
| oiaohm | Mostly because QT already has webbrowsers. | Apr 01 01:19 |
| yuhong | mib_aai6yz: Xbox 360 is not affected in any way from Conflicker to my knowledge. | Apr 01 01:19 |
| mib_aai6yz | ok man thnx | Apr 01 01:19 |
| *yuhong has quit (“ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]“) | Apr 01 01:19 | |
| oiaohm | Chrome head to head with QT browsers would have been a uphill battle. | Apr 01 01:19 |
| mib_aai6yz | |
Apr 01 01:19 |
| _Hicham_ | what Qt browsers do u talk of? | Apr 01 01:20 |
| _Hicham_ | Opera? | Apr 01 01:20 |
| oiaohm | That is 1. | Apr 01 01:20 |
| oiaohm | There are more. | Apr 01 01:20 |
| _Hicham_ | but not major browsers | Apr 01 01:20 |
| oiaohm | Most have not been ported to windows and mac. | Apr 01 01:20 |
| _Hicham_ | give me an example | Apr 01 01:20 |
| devq | _Hicham_, konqueror? | Apr 01 01:20 |
| _Hicham_ | other than Konqueror | Apr 01 01:20 |
| devq | other than konq… | Apr 01 01:20 |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_: safrii and konqueror both share common engine. | Apr 01 01:21 |
| devq | isn’t it kinda enough | Apr 01 01:21 |
| _Hicham_ | I know that | Apr 01 01:21 |
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| _Hicham_ | but Safari isn’t build with Qt | Apr 01 01:21 |
| _Hicham_ | it is Cocoa I think for Safari | Apr 01 01:21 |
| devq | arora | Apr 01 01:21 |
| oiaohm | Safari and itunes use QT on windows. | Apr 01 01:22 |
| oiaohm | Qt is used a lot more than most people know. | Apr 01 01:23 |
| _Hicham_ | Adobe also uses Qt | Apr 01 01:23 |
| oiaohm | Of course on apples own native plaform they use native interface Cocoa. | Apr 01 01:23 |
| _Hicham_ | Firefox is GTK | Apr 01 01:24 |
| oiaohm | Qt has been developed for Windows for a really long time. Major reason why gtk has any market share on Linux is that gtk had lgpl licence and qt had Gpl | Apr 01 01:24 |
| oiaohm | Firefox when it started could not use QT or it would have had to be under GPL. | Apr 01 01:24 |
| oiaohm | That is changed since QT has moved to LGPL. | Apr 01 01:25 |
| _Hicham_ | how can they compete with Firefox then on Linux? | Apr 01 01:25 |
| oiaohm | Firefox internally is crap. | Apr 01 01:25 |
| _Hicham_ | why? | Apr 01 01:25 |
| oiaohm | Memory leaks and other major poblems. | Apr 01 01:25 |
| _Hicham_ | Memory leak are less frequent | Apr 01 01:26 |
| oiaohm | webkit used by chrome konq and a lot of others don’t leak. | Apr 01 01:26 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not Gecko’s fault | Apr 01 01:26 |
| _Hicham_ | most of the time it is the plugins | Apr 01 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Gecko does leak in places. | Apr 01 01:26 |
| oiaohm | javascript is the worse offender of course. | Apr 01 01:26 |
| _Hicham_ | those places can be patched | Apr 01 01:27 |
| oiaohm | thinking that most of firefoxs interface runs on xul | Apr 01 01:27 |
| _Hicham_ | Javascript is one of the pillars of Gecko | Apr 01 01:27 |
| oiaohm | Leaks in gecko become a large problom. | Apr 01 01:27 |
| _Hicham_ | we can fix those Leaks | Apr 01 01:27 |
| oiaohm | Lot of work. | Apr 01 01:27 |
| oiaohm | But yes fixable. | Apr 01 01:28 |
| _Hicham_ | plus, there is a project for Gecko2 | Apr 01 01:28 |
| oiaohm | I know. | Apr 01 01:28 |
| _Hicham_ | it won’t be called Gecko though | Apr 01 01:28 |
| _Hicham_ | it will be called Mozilla2 I think | Apr 01 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Problem is by the time gecko2 gets done webkit most likely will be miles ahead. | Apr 01 01:28 |
| _Hicham_ | and it is gonna be redesigned from scratch | Apr 01 01:28 |
| _Hicham_ | webkit is still very young | Apr 01 01:28 |
| oiaohm | khtml what webkit started as is not that young. | Apr 01 01:29 |
| oiaohm | You are taking a birth in 1996 | Apr 01 01:30 |
| oiaohm | Its over 10 years old. | Apr 01 01:30 |
| _Hicham_ | khtml | Apr 01 01:30 |
| _Hicham_ | not webkit | Apr 01 01:30 |
| oiaohm | khtml was bound to the kde stack. | Apr 01 01:30 |
| _Hicham_ | I know that | Apr 01 01:31 |
| oiaohm | webkit is khtml unlocked from kde stack. | Apr 01 01:31 |
| oiaohm | Its basically the core engine of khtml. | Apr 01 01:31 |
| _Hicham_ | but Webkit doesn’t support plugins | Apr 01 01:31 |
| _Hicham_ | there is a work to make pluginnable | Apr 01 01:32 |
| oiaohm | WebKit supports two types of plug-ins, cross-browser plug-ins using an enhanced form of the Netscape plug-in API and WebKit plug-ins that are designed for use by embedded applications that need to display native OS X content integrated with the Web document. | Apr 01 01:33 |
| oiaohm | Someone don’t know there software. | Apr 01 01:33 |
| _Hicham_ | so it is as rich as Gecko? | Apr 01 01:34 |
| oiaohm | Webkit also supports pluginable javascript engines. | Apr 01 01:34 |
| oiaohm | More flexable than Gecko. | Apr 01 01:35 |
| _Hicham_ | but devs should be convinced to use it | Apr 01 01:35 |
| _Hicham_ | actually Firefox is the Plugins Leader | Apr 01 01:35 |
| oiaohm | Extention leader. | Apr 01 01:35 |
| oiaohm | Not really plugin leader. | Apr 01 01:35 |
| oiaohm | Webkit could be used same way gecko is for interface just everyone chooses not to. | Apr 01 01:36 |
| _Hicham_ | why they choose not to in ur opinion? | Apr 01 01:36 |
| oiaohm | Using QT interfaces and the like have less overhead. | Apr 01 01:38 |
| oiaohm | Reason why there are like pure GTK ports of gecko engine. | Apr 01 01:38 |
| oiaohm | None of the firefox extentions work on them but they take way less resources. | Apr 01 01:38 |
| oiaohm | Also due to the way webkit is designed to be plugined into applications with simple to drop parts you don’t want its way simpler than gecko to enmbed in applications. | Apr 01 01:39 |
| _Hicham_ | but people are used to Gecko | Apr 01 01:40 |
| _Hicham_ | I mean the devs | Apr 01 01:40 |
| oiaohm | Really. | Apr 01 01:40 |
| _Hicham_ | there will be a new learning curve for them | Apr 01 01:40 |
| _Hicham_ | which will take some time | Apr 01 01:40 |
| oiaohm | Most application developers use either MS active X IE or webkit. | Apr 01 01:40 |
| oiaohm | Web developers are not use to it. | Apr 01 01:41 |
| oiaohm | But most of the time they don’t need to know that its been rendered on webkit. | Apr 01 01:41 |
| oiaohm | Also the other problem with coping me is that my english writing style is uniquely stuffed. Anyone who knows me will work out someone trying to copy me very quickly. | Apr 01 01:42 |
| oiaohm | I changed my handle once to try to get away from my miss spent youth. It only took 4 months before my new handle was located. | Apr 01 01:43 |
| oiaohm | http://arstechnica.com/open-source/n… <<chrome qt clone already. | Apr 01 01:45 |
| oiaohm | No special code used. | Apr 01 01:46 |
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| yuhong | BTW, schestowitz, what do you think of this thread? | Apr 01 01:48 |
| yuhong | http://groups.google.com/group/c… | Apr 01 01:48 |
| schestowitz | Let me look | Apr 01 01:48 |
| schestowitz | Sorry about earlier | Apr 01 01:48 |
| schestowitz | Wasn’t here, didn’t ignore | Apr 01 01:48 |
| schestowitz | yuhong: it’s a troll thread | Apr 01 01:49 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Munchkins throwing FUD around | Apr 01 01:49 |
| yuhong | What about my links on cloud computing I posted earlier? | Apr 01 01:49 |
| schestowitz | Everyone there except one person is a Microsoft troll | Apr 01 01:50 |
| yuhong | Did you get them? | Apr 01 01:50 |
| schestowitz | Haven’t yet | Apr 01 01:50 |
| schestowitz | I’m working on links at the moment | Apr 01 01:50 |
| schestowitz | For BN post | Apr 01 01:50 |
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| _Hicham_1 | ur a great trademark | Apr 01 01:50 |
| yuhong | Why do you think they are MS trolls? | Apr 01 01:50 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm would bring a lot of money | Apr 01 01:51 |
| *_Hicham_1 (n=hicham@41.249.40.223) has left #boycottnovell | Apr 01 01:51 | |
| *_Hicham_1 (n=hicham@41.249.40.223) has joined #boycottnovell | Apr 01 01:51 | |
| devq | because if you’re m$ addicted and don’t understand what wrong with it and post smth about oses you’re a troll by default | Apr 01 01:52 |
| _Hicham_1 | who is the troll in here? | Apr 01 01:52 |
| yuhong | schestowitz: true or not? | Apr 01 01:52 |
| oiaohm | We get a few _Hicham_1 | Apr 01 01:52 |
| devq | it’s about the question “Why do you think they are MS trolls?” | Apr 01 01:52 |
| oiaohm | Lot of people try to call me one. | Apr 01 01:52 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm is not an MS troll | Apr 01 01:53 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm is one of the pillars of this room | Apr 01 01:53 |
| oiaohm | Linux troll MS troll Mac troll I have been called them all at different times. | Apr 01 01:53 |
| devq | … i was not even talking about those who are here | Apr 01 01:53 |
| _Hicham_1 | ok devq | Apr 01 01:53 |
| _Hicham_1 | there is no trolls in here | Apr 01 01:53 |
| yuhong | I know, even I was called a troll once, see the IRC logs. | Apr 01 01:53 |
| oiaohm | Big problem is people through the troll word around without base too. | Apr 01 01:53 |
| schestowitz | yuhong: because they are trolls | Apr 01 01:54 |
| devq | yeah, they always call me troll in ##windows | Apr 01 01:54 |
| schestowitz | I know the history | Apr 01 01:54 |
| schestowitz | It’s documented | Apr 01 01:54 |
| yuhong | Where? | Apr 01 01:54 |
| schestowitz | They are anonymous, nymshifying shills who post from zombie or honeypots | Apr 01 01:54 |
| yuhong | How did you tell? | Apr 01 01:55 |
| _Hicham_1 | I have called a troll in here too | Apr 01 01:55 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm is n o troll | Apr 01 01:55 |
| _Hicham_1 | I have been called a troll in here | Apr 01 01:55 |
| devq | and banned my subnet | Apr 01 01:55 |
| _Hicham_1 | schestowitz : am I a troll? | Apr 01 01:55 |
| oiaohm | I get mistaken for 1. Because some of the things I say seam so impossable. | Apr 01 01:55 |
| schestowitz | yuhong: I won’t tell you the whole story with hundreds of refs now | Apr 01 01:55 |
| oiaohm | When they are true. | Apr 01 01:55 |
| devq | even though in that subnet all the ips are static | Apr 01 01:55 |
| oiaohm | Like who would think that for data recovery of ntfs best tool for it was Linux before I said it. | Apr 01 01:56 |
| yuhong | Now, what about the cloud computing links I posted about Amazon? | Apr 01 01:56 |
| schestowitz | yuhong: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/02/gar… | Apr 01 01:56 |
| Balrog_ | I dislike dealing with trolls  |
Apr 01 01:56 |
| Balrog_ | especially those you can’t get rid of *sigh* | Apr 01 01:56 |
| schestowitz | yuhong: this is a aste of time | Apr 01 01:57 |
| oiaohm | Most people call a person a troll for saying something that seams impossable. | Apr 01 01:57 |
| schestowitz | You come here handing out libel from trolls | Apr 01 01:57 |
| Balrog_ | no, a troll is someone who tries to provoke trouble | Apr 01 01:57 |
| schestowitz | And then ask me for proof that there are trolls. | Apr 01 01:57 |
| *yuhong has quit (“ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]“) | Apr 01 01:57 | |
| Balrog_ | /me?/ | Apr 01 01:57 |
| schestowitz | No | Apr 01 01:57 |
| schestowitz | The yuhoung fool. | Apr 01 01:57 |
| oiaohm | Problem is a person who does not know much can provoke trouble without even trying. | Apr 01 01:57 |
| oiaohm | Remember the biggest idiot can ask a question the wisest person can never answer. | Apr 01 01:58 |
| schestowitz | I reckon he’s a shill: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/… | Apr 01 01:58 |
| schestowitz | He’s also trolling Roughly Drafted | Apr 01 01:58 |
| schestowitz | All the sites that expose Microsoft’s dark secrets | Apr 01 01:58 |
| schestowitz | He’s from Seattle | Apr 01 01:58 |
| Balrog_ | shestowitz: I know a person who’s a troll and doesn’t think he is | Apr 01 01:58 |
| Balrog_ | schestowitz * | Apr 01 01:58 |
| Balrog_ | basically, he causes problems for others and he believes he’s doing the right thing | Apr 01 01:58 |
| schestowitz | Just ingnore these | Apr 01 01:59 |
| Balrog_ | well I have to deal with him *in real life* | Apr 01 01:59 |
| oiaohm | Ok the relgiguous people Balrog_ | Apr 01 01:59 |
| Balrog_ | not religious | Apr 01 01:59 |
| oiaohm | Like GNU is great. | Apr 01 01:59 |
| _Hicham_1 | well, I don’t know if I am a troll or not | Apr 01 01:59 |
| oiaohm | Its not all the time. | Apr 01 01:59 |
| Balrog_ | ‘religious’ isn’t a problem for me, it seems | Apr 01 01:59 |
| _Hicham_1 | tell me people | Apr 01 01:59 |
| _Hicham_1 | am I a troll? | Apr 01 01:59 |
| Balrog_ | I don’t think so…. | Apr 01 02:00 |
| oiaohm | Everyone can be from time to time. _Hicham_1 it is human nature to dig your toes in and fight an argument without the facts in order. | Apr 01 02:00 |
| Balrog_ | yes but this person is a troll 99% of the time | Apr 01 02:00 |
| _Hicham_1 | who Balrog_? | Apr 01 02:00 |
| oiaohm | A person who is not a troll at all is aware of that fact. | Apr 01 02:01 |
| Balrog_ | someone I know personally | Apr 01 02:01 |
| Balrog_ | you won’t see him here | Apr 01 02:01 |
| oiaohm | And keeps it in mind. | Apr 01 02:01 |
| devq | lol, what was he talking about… “it’s okay for a exec manager to change companies as gloves” | Apr 01 02:01 |
| devq | we all know how harmful it is | Apr 01 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Best company troll argument I know. Is free cannot be good quality. | Apr 01 02:01 |
| oiaohm | It has no base in fact that prices makes better quality products all the time. | Apr 01 02:02 |
| devq | like m$ stole managers from borland and that’s why delphi was released long after it should’ve been | Apr 01 02:02 |
| oiaohm | We had a troll in here recently saying that KDE copied Vista. | Apr 01 02:02 |
| oiaohm | When the reverse is true. | Apr 01 02:03 |
| _Hicham_1 | Vista copied Gnome | Apr 01 02:03 |
| _Hicham_1 | not KDE | Apr 01 02:03 |
| _Hicham_1 | when I see Vista, I see every bit of Gnome | Apr 01 02:03 |
| oiaohm | They copied bits from KDE Gnome and Apple. | Apr 01 02:03 |
| devq | and win2000 copied vms | Apr 01 02:03 |
| oiaohm | There are memos and other notes that even back it up _Hicham_1 | Apr 01 02:03 |
| _Hicham_1 | they tried to implement Compiz, but they failed to | Apr 01 02:04 |
| devq | oh no… win nt even | Apr 01 02:04 |
| oiaohm | win nt is mach os rebuild. | Apr 01 02:04 |
| oiaohm | Not a vms | Apr 01 02:04 |
| Balrog_ | win nt was built by vms engineers | Apr 01 02:04 |
| oiaohm | please note mach os was a pure microkernel | Apr 01 02:04 |
| devq | oiaohm, from what i read they just took vms devs and copied vms with a bit of rework | Apr 01 02:05 |
| Balrog_ | yes, that’s what I heard | Apr 01 02:05 |
| devq | and later went into courts | Apr 01 02:05 |
| Balrog_ | also there were components from OS/2 | Apr 01 02:05 |
| oiaohm | vms lead developer took the chance to change OS and design a new OS. | Apr 01 02:05 |
| oiaohm | Parts of vms design are in NT. But what the vms developer started with was mach os. | Apr 01 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Yes your background effects your coding style. | Apr 01 02:06 |
| oiaohm | And you solution style. | Apr 01 02:06 |
| _Hicham_1 | true | Apr 01 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Yes you can see bits of OS/2 VMS and Mach in windows. But Mach os is the strongest. | Apr 01 02:07 |
| oiaohm | Most people don’t know mach so when they see bits of it they don’t even identify it. | Apr 01 02:07 |
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| devq | so now they faultly try to copy linux | Apr 01 02:07 |
| oiaohm | Most feature people think of as new NT features are from Mach. | Apr 01 02:07 |
| devq | and kde | Apr 01 02:07 |
| oiaohm | MS invents very little. | Apr 01 02:08 |
| devq | does it invent at all? | Apr 01 02:08 |
| oiaohm | Most of MS so called inventions are recreates of old items. | Apr 01 02:08 |
| _Hicham_1 | MS said that before | Apr 01 02:08 |
| _Hicham_1 | they don’t create | Apr 01 02:08 |
| oiaohm | Some things MS did event but there are a really short list. | Apr 01 02:08 |
| _Hicham_1 | they buy existing technologies | Apr 01 02:09 |
| oiaohm | event/invent. | Apr 01 02:09 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm : give some examples | Apr 01 02:09 |
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| oiaohm | mach was open source _Hicham_ | Apr 01 02:10 |
| oiaohm | So they did not even need to buy it opensource BSD licence. | Apr 01 02:10 |
| devq | oiaohm, can you mention some of m$ inventions? | Apr 01 02:11 |
| oiaohm | BSOD | Apr 01 02:11 |
| devq | XD | Apr 01 02:11 |
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| Balrog_ | don’t they have to credit CMU for mach, like Apple does? | Apr 01 02:11 |
| oiaohm | If you read the book by the designer of NT he does. | Apr 01 02:11 |
| _Hicham_1 | MS have no credit for OpenSource | Apr 01 02:11 |
| Balrog_ | no, in the final product | Apr 01 02:12 |
| oiaohm | Microsoft the main company does not want to own up to it. | Apr 01 02:12 |
| _Hicham_1 | MS have a long story with BSD | Apr 01 02:12 |
| devq | so they perverted that name with BSOD | Apr 01 02:12 |
| oiaohm | It would undermine there idea that closed source is good. | Apr 01 02:12 |
| Balrog_ | OS X shows ‘Mach kernel (C) CMU Mach’ as one of the first things in the boot process, if you boot verbose | Apr 01 02:12 |
| Balrog_ | or something like that | Apr 01 02:12 |
| dsmith_ | MS also buys out ppl | Apr 01 02:12 |
| oiaohm | Most things MS has invented is names. | Apr 01 02:13 |
| oiaohm | Or if they have been good ideas stuffed them up. | Apr 01 02:14 |
| _Hicham_1 | finally | Apr 01 02:14 |
| _Hicham_1 | so they didn’t invent anything? | Apr 01 02:14 |
| oiaohm | Blue scren of death designed to provide debuging information to make what failed unstandable. | Apr 01 02:14 |
| oiaohm | Very good idea. | Apr 01 02:14 |
| oiaohm | Then they make it not readable by most humans. | Apr 01 02:14 |
| devq | was it really theirs? | Apr 01 02:14 |
| devq | or their invention is “blue” in that sod | Apr 01 02:15 |
| oiaohm | All other crash screens before BSOD ware like kernel panic. | Apr 01 02:15 |
| oiaohm | No debuging information. | Apr 01 02:15 |
| oiaohm | Or apples bomb… | Apr 01 02:15 |
| oiaohm | The list goes on. | Apr 01 02:15 |
| oiaohm | It was a good invention. Every time MS does a good invention they find a way to screw it up. | Apr 01 02:16 |
| _Hicham_1 | true, they invented BSOD | Apr 01 02:16 |
| _Hicham_1 | BSOD is one of their greatest inventions | Apr 01 02:16 |
| _Hicham_1 | who else can invent such a clever page? | Apr 01 02:16 |
| _Hicham_1 | full of hintful information? | Apr 01 02:16 |
| _Hicham_1 | and very human readable? | Apr 01 02:16 |
| _Hicham_1 | and very pleasant to the eye? | Apr 01 02:17 |
| _Hicham_1 | who can deny that? | Apr 01 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Latter Linux kernel panics got more readable information. But gets blocked from view by the GUI. | Apr 01 02:17 |
| _Hicham_1 | it is really a pleasure to have a BSOD | Apr 01 02:17 |
| _Hicham_1 | Linux kernel panics should generate messages | Apr 01 02:17 |
| oiaohm | First generation kernel panics were just 1 line. | Apr 01 02:18 |
| oiaohm | No message. | Apr 01 02:18 |
| oiaohm | Yes curse and swear item. | Apr 01 02:18 |
| Balrog_ | interestingly, OS X kernel panics do generate messages | Apr 01 02:18 |
| _Hicham_1 | i a talking about a graphical warning | Apr 01 02:18 |
| Balrog_ | they get dumped to NVRAM then written to a log on next reboot | Apr 01 02:18 |
| _Hicham_1 | like MSVCRT ones | Apr 01 02:18 |
| oiaohm | That is the OS X invention. | Apr 01 02:18 |
| oiaohm | 100 percent for sure readable kernel panics. | Apr 01 02:19 |
| NeonFloss | FOSS sucks ass | Apr 01 02:19 |
| oiaohm | No mater how the system screws itself. | Apr 01 02:19 |
| _Hicham_1 | we can do that with Linux | Apr 01 02:19 |
| _Hicham_1 | we just have to generate message/events | Apr 01 02:19 |
| NeonFloss | april fools | Apr 01 02:19 |
| oiaohm | You need hardware to do that _Hicham_1 | Apr 01 02:19 |
| _Hicham_1 | catchable by the GUI | Apr 01 02:19 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm : why hardware? | Apr 01 02:20 |
| _Hicham_1 | but kernel panics sometimes block the UI | Apr 01 02:20 |
| oiaohm | KMS support is required so Linux gets a bluescreen of death. | Apr 01 02:20 |
| oiaohm | equal. | Apr 01 02:20 |
| _Hicham_1 | great idea | Apr 01 02:20 |
| oiaohm | Or the kernel cannot render anything to screen due to the video card being in the wrong mode. | Apr 01 02:20 |
| _Hicham_1 | Linux with BSOD | Apr 01 02:20 |
| oiaohm | Linux did something really evil. | Apr 01 02:21 |
| oiaohm | You know the flashing lights you get when Linux kernel panics. | Apr 01 02:21 |
| oiaohm | Its morse code. | Apr 01 02:21 |
| _Hicham_1 | why not | Apr 01 02:21 |
| oiaohm | Who knows morse these days. | Apr 01 02:21 |
| devq | i don’t remember | Apr 01 02:21 |
| oiaohm | That is Linux invention. | Apr 01 02:21 |
| _Hicham_1 | are talking seriously? | Apr 01 02:21 |
| oiaohm | morse code kernel panic messages. | Apr 01 02:22 |
| _Hicham_1 | is it morse code? | Apr 01 02:22 |
| *devq forgot morse code right after he learned it | Apr 01 02:22 | |
| _Hicham_1 | are u serious? | Apr 01 02:22 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Apr 01 02:22 |
| _Hicham_1 | well, it is not that evil then | Apr 01 02:22 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel developers had to be able to get the error message some how. | Apr 01 02:22 |
| _Hicham_1 | the BIOS still uses them | Apr 01 02:22 |
| _Hicham_1 | it is like BIOS | Apr 01 02:22 |
| _Hicham_1 | so either use sound or image | Apr 01 02:23 |
| oiaohm | Each OS invented something unique | Apr 01 02:23 |
| oiaohm | For error handling. | Apr 01 02:23 |
| oiaohm | We just really need the best merged. | Apr 01 02:23 |
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| oiaohm | http://online.wsj.com/articl… Interesting. | Apr 01 02:26 |
| *schestowitz resumes RMS CMU tralk | Apr 01 02:27 | |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm : how much time is left for Microsoft? | Apr 01 02:30 |
| oiaohm | It depends how Windows 7 goes. | Apr 01 02:30 |
| _Hicham_1 | and how do u see Windows 7? | Apr 01 02:31 |
| oiaohm | How Windows 7 sells or does not sell | Apr 01 02:31 |
| oiaohm | Windows 7 fails to sell well MS could be in big trouble very quicky. | Apr 01 02:32 |
| devq | enforcing drm and other crap barely people like win7 | Apr 01 02:32 |
| _Hicham_1 | did u test its beta? | Apr 01 02:32 |
| oiaohm | They are currently cutting away all unrequired departments. | Apr 01 02:32 |
| *devq is not installing windows until it’s at least sp1 | Apr 01 02:32 | |
| oiaohm | Google is going to make a strong push into th netbook market. | Apr 01 02:32 |
| devq | and i didn’t even install vista even to check | Apr 01 02:33 |
| oiaohm | MS many not have the time to wait until sp1 of windows 7 and still be in good shape. | Apr 01 02:33 |
| oiaohm | They spent more money making vista than sending a man to the moon. | Apr 01 02:33 |
| oiaohm | They are having been spending huge everywhere. | Apr 01 02:33 |
| devq | man to the moon… | Apr 01 02:33 |
| oiaohm | Now they have to get use to being broke again. | Apr 01 02:34 |
| devq | they actually spent very little to make that up (sending a man to the moon) | Apr 01 02:34 |
| oiaohm | Vista total construction cost was over 400 billion devq | Apr 01 02:34 |
| _Hicham_1 | 400 billion? | Apr 01 02:35 |
| oiaohm | Lot of wasteful spending in there. | Apr 01 02:35 |
| devq | yeah, and filming a fake landing didn’t cost even 1 billion | Apr 01 02:35 |
| oiaohm | You have to remember all the exermental projects that were intented for vista and never made it like winfs _Hicham_1 | Apr 01 02:36 |
| _Hicham_1 | I remember that well | Apr 01 02:36 |
| devq | will win7 have winfs? | Apr 01 02:36 |
| _Hicham_1 | they are going to death | Apr 01 02:37 |
| _Hicham_1 | if they enforce drm | Apr 01 02:37 |
| oiaohm | To make something like a Linux distrobution normally is about 10 billion in development time. | Apr 01 02:37 |
| devq | they actually do it already | Apr 01 02:37 |
| oiaohm | Of course that is split over many commanies. | Apr 01 02:37 |
| oiaohm | So its not much money from each party. | Apr 01 02:37 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm : from scratch? | Apr 01 02:37 |
| oiaohm | From scratch. | Apr 01 02:37 |
| _Hicham_1 | Vista was the worst seller ever | Apr 01 02:38 |
| oiaohm | Vista basically cost 40 times more than a Linux distribution to make from scratch. | Apr 01 02:38 |
| _Hicham_1 | people were asking for machines with Windows XP | Apr 01 02:38 |
| oiaohm | That massive spend hit MS bottem line. | Apr 01 02:38 |
| devq | and got none | Apr 01 02:38 |
| oiaohm | Then you have the netbook plague | Apr 01 02:38 |
| oiaohm | that reduced there OS income. | Apr 01 02:39 |
| oiaohm | Basically MS is suffering. | Apr 01 02:39 |
| _Hicham_1 | netbooks fucked MS | Apr 01 02:39 |
| oiaohm | One of there main money streams is damaged. | Apr 01 02:39 |
| _Hicham_1 | they didn’t expect that | Apr 01 02:39 |
| oiaohm | Yep so they were spending like no tommorw. | Apr 01 02:39 |
| oiaohm | Problem is tommow is here. | Apr 01 02:39 |
| _Hicham_1 | Windows XP was almost complete | Apr 01 02:40 |
| _Hicham_1 | they just made things worse | Apr 01 02:40 |
| oiaohm | If windows 7 is another flop expect to see MS dropping more departments. | Apr 01 02:40 |
| _Hicham_1 | they should have sold Service Packs | Apr 01 02:41 |
| oiaohm | Price of closed source development will also start bitting MS like it bit apple. | Apr 01 02:41 |
| _Hicham_1 | instead of a new OS | Apr 01 02:41 |
| _Hicham_1 | they made a bad move here | Apr 01 02:41 |
| _Hicham_1 | it was too risky | Apr 01 02:41 |
| oiaohm | OS X has a open source core mostly because maintaining OS 9 was too expensive. | Apr 01 02:41 |
| oiaohm | Remmber OS 9 has limited hardware it has to support. | Apr 01 02:41 |
| oiaohm | I would not really like to be MS with Windows overheads. | Apr 01 02:42 |
| _Hicham_1 | but OS X now runs on Intel Architecture | Apr 01 02:42 |
| oiaohm | OS X core is based of freebsd | Apr 01 02:42 |
| oiaohm | of/off | Apr 01 02:42 |
| oiaohm | so porting to x86 was simple. | Apr 01 02:42 |
| oiaohm | Not much effort at all. | Apr 01 02:43 |
| _Hicham_1 | I agree on that | Apr 01 02:43 |
| oiaohm | If arm based laptops come through. | Apr 01 02:43 |
| oiaohm | MS has major battles ahead of them. Major reason why MS is trying to get all applications coded in .net | Apr 01 02:43 |
| oiaohm | The failure to do that is also MS problem. | Apr 01 02:44 |
| _Hicham_1 | why .NET? | Apr 01 02:44 |
| oiaohm | Remember OS X has a generic executable format that is cpu netural as well. | Apr 01 02:44 |
| _Hicham_1 | .NET is ported to arm? | Apr 01 02:44 |
| oiaohm | .net is ported to arm by Novell. | Apr 01 02:44 |
| oiaohm | The deal between MS and Novell is not just a one way street. | Apr 01 02:45 |
| oiaohm | MS needs Novell to live just as much as Novell needs MS. | Apr 01 02:45 |
| _Hicham_1 | so Novell is MS savior in a certain way? | Apr 01 02:46 |
| oiaohm | Both are trying to be each others savior | Apr 01 02:46 |
| oiaohm | MS and Novell are both on a path to failure. | Apr 01 02:46 |
| _Hicham_1 | so they are drowning together? | Apr 01 02:47 |
| oiaohm | Basically. | Apr 01 02:48 |
| oiaohm | Novell saw MS as a way to save there falling Linux sales. | Apr 01 02:48 |
| oiaohm | MS saw Novell as way to solve there cpu lock in problems. | Apr 01 02:48 |
| oiaohm | Neither is turning out that great. | Apr 01 02:49 |
| _Hicham_1 | Novell took the wrong way | Apr 01 02:50 |
| schestowitz | RMS the auctioneer….. | Apr 01 02:50 |
| _Hicham_1 | why didn’t they do like RedHat? | Apr 01 02:50 |
| oiaohm | Novell deals like that had worked for them in the past. | Apr 01 02:52 |
| oiaohm | And made them lots of profit. | Apr 01 02:52 |
| oiaohm | This time it did not work. | Apr 01 02:52 |
| _Hicham_1 | examples of such deals plz | Apr 01 02:53 |
| oiaohm | netware deal with MS _Hicham_1 | Apr 01 02:54 |
| oiaohm | Made Novell stacks. | Apr 01 02:54 |
| oiaohm | Time pases what worked in the past many not every work again for you in business. | Apr 01 02:54 |
| _Hicham_1 | but netware deal has nothing to do with .NET deal | Apr 01 02:55 |
| oiaohm | netware deal was another shared tech deal. | Apr 01 02:55 |
| oiaohm | .net deal was all about getting the server side deals with MS. | Apr 01 02:56 |
| oiaohm | MS marketing Novell like they did with netware of the past. | Apr 01 02:56 |
| oiaohm | This time around competition lot stronger so stunt failed big time. | Apr 01 02:56 |
| schestowitz | *ping* Balrog | Apr 01 02:57 |
| _Hicham_1 | who would bother to use .NET on a Linux Server? | Apr 01 02:57 |
| _Hicham_1 | what would be the benefit? | Apr 01 02:57 |
| oiaohm | Why do you use java on a Linux server. | Apr 01 02:57 |
| oiaohm | .Net is about basicallly allowing MS .net asp applications to be pinched. | Apr 01 02:58 |
| oiaohm | So gaining market share. | Apr 01 02:58 |
| oiaohm | Its all about the applications. | Apr 01 02:58 |
| oiaohm | Something the Linux world will have to focus on once the base techs are stable. | Apr 01 02:59 |
| _Hicham_1 | there is (almost) no interesting MS tech on the server side for Linux | Apr 01 03:00 |
| _Hicham_1 | except interoperability | Apr 01 03:00 |
| oiaohm | exactly interoperablity. | Apr 01 03:01 |
| oiaohm | The means to rip out a windows server transfer it apps and keep on going. | Apr 01 03:02 |
| _Hicham_1 | that would benefit Linux Servers | Apr 01 03:02 |
| _Hicham_1 | no? | Apr 01 03:02 |
| _Hicham_1 | and make Linux Server bigger | Apr 01 03:03 |
| oiaohm | That is novells idea. | Apr 01 03:04 |
| oiaohm | As I say it has not worked out that way. | Apr 01 03:04 |
| oiaohm | Turns out lots of companies are running like php java and mysql on there windows servers. | Apr 01 03:04 |
| oiaohm | So there are not really enough .net applictions out there. | Apr 01 03:05 |
| _Hicham_1 | is it a good idea to run php on a windows server? | Apr 01 03:05 |
| oiaohm | Really no | Apr 01 03:06 |
| _Hicham_1 | why do people do it then? | Apr 01 03:06 |
| _Hicham_1 | lack of knowledge about Linux? | Apr 01 03:06 |
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| oiaohm | Lack of funds _Hicham_1 | Apr 01 03:10 |
| oiaohm | Sometimes you can only aford 1 server. | Apr 01 03:10 |
| oiaohm | So it has to do everything. | Apr 01 03:10 |
| oiaohm | Linux lacks active directory and a few other key windows network controlling techs. | Apr 01 03:10 |
| _Hicham_1 | why not virtualize on Linux? | Apr 01 03:11 |
| oiaohm | Again lack of funds. | Apr 01 03:11 |
| oiaohm | You have to be aware lot of these companies are still running windows 2000 servers. | Apr 01 03:11 |
| oiaohm | Before Linux was good at virtualisation. | Apr 01 03:11 |
| oiaohm | And they cannot kinda take servers off line. | Apr 01 03:12 |
| oiaohm | So ok php on windows not great. | Apr 01 03:12 |
| oiaohm | But it was better than nothing. | Apr 01 03:12 |
| oiaohm | The virtualisation on Linux is what is happening now _Hicham_1 | Apr 01 03:13 |
| oiaohm | Old 2000 servers are hitting the end of there optional cycles. | Apr 01 03:13 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: speaking of win2k, watch http://valhenson.livejournal.com/359… | Apr 01 03:13 |
| _Hicham_1 | window 2003 is not used very much? | Apr 01 03:13 |
| oiaohm | 2003 is also come to the end of its cycle. | Apr 01 03:18 |
| oiaohm | 2008 is not used much. | Apr 01 03:18 |
| _Hicham_1 | what is the most secure webserver? | Apr 01 03:19 |
| _Hicham_1 | FreeBSD? | Apr 01 03:19 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: Yes person found the item I was forgeting. MS is risking another 1998 time frame problem. Fire the wrong people basically cripple there complete operations. | Apr 01 03:21 |
| oiaohm | Most secure is really hard to define _Hicham_1 | Apr 01 03:21 |
| oiaohm | BSD guys try to claim it. | Apr 01 03:22 |
| oiaohm | You might have a secure OS. | Apr 01 03:22 |
| oiaohm | If you use a inscure webserver it still can be rendered useless. | Apr 01 03:22 |
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| oiaohm | A secure webserver is made by the correct selection of parts to build it _Hicham_1 | Apr 01 03:24 |
| oiaohm | Kernel can be Linux Freebsd or solarias. | Apr 01 03:24 |
| _Hicham_1 | but not Windows? | Apr 01 03:24 |
| oiaohm | There are ways to privilage exscape in windows even out of guest accounts. | Apr 01 03:25 |
| oiaohm | OS X you can also build a secure OS on. | Apr 01 03:25 |
| oiaohm | Normally too expensive so freebsd Linux and solaris get used instead. | Apr 01 03:25 |
| schestowitz | 4am, gn | Apr 01 03:26 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel has privilage excape problems but by custom building kernel without particular features you remove lots of them. | Apr 01 03:26 |
| _Hicham_1 | gn Roy | Apr 01 03:26 |
| oiaohm | Other key thing to a secure webserver is the means to audit anything if needed. | Apr 01 03:27 |
| _Hicham_1 | can we escape privileges in Linux Kernel? | Apr 01 03:27 |
| oiaohm | If particular features are enabled. | Apr 01 03:27 |
| oiaohm | Like your user having the means to write anywhere in memory _Hicham_1 | Apr 01 03:27 |
| oiaohm | Remove that also breaks X11 using DRI 1 | Apr 01 03:28 |
| _Hicham_1 | does DRI 2 resolves this? | Apr 01 03:28 |
| oiaohm | Yes | Apr 01 03:28 |
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| oiaohm | Linux will become a very secure desktop OS. | Apr 01 03:29 |
| yuhong | I agree. | Apr 01 03:29 |
| oiaohm | Its just not that secure at the moment. | Apr 01 03:29 |
| yuhong | http://www.computerworld.com/action/arti… | Apr 01 03:29 |
| oiaohm | Hard bit for MS supports to get is for many years most of Linux did not give a crap about the desktop. | Apr 01 03:30 |
| *amarsh04_ is now known as amarsh04 | Apr 01 03:30 | |
| yuhong | I know. | Apr 01 03:30 |
| oiaohm | There was more money elsewhere. | Apr 01 03:30 |
| oiaohm | As the Linux army of coders turn on building a desktop it will improve. | Apr 01 03:30 |
| yuhong | Remember when I was talking about why MS became Goliath? | Apr 01 03:30 |
| yuhong | I just found this that might be interesting. | Apr 01 03:31 |
| yuhong | http://www.computerworld.com/action/arti… | Apr 01 03:31 |
| oiaohm | Remember how I said history is repeating a while back. | Apr 01 03:31 |
| oiaohm | This is some of it I was refering to. | Apr 01 03:31 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm : is there anyway to create an infrastructure for installing drivers on Linux like Windows? | Apr 01 03:31 |
| oiaohm | Linux is different to windows. | Apr 01 03:32 |
| _Hicham_1 | I mean by means of the *.inf files and so on | Apr 01 03:32 |
| _Hicham_1 | I know | Apr 01 03:32 |
| yuhong | I once said that MS’s business tactics were causing MS to become Goliath. | Apr 01 03:32 |
| _Hicham_1 | but is there any way to do so? | Apr 01 03:32 |
| oiaohm | Userspace drivers like printer and scanners there are universion installallers. | Apr 01 03:32 |
| oiaohm | Under linux. | Apr 01 03:32 |
| yuhong | And it seems you agree. | Apr 01 03:32 |
| oiaohm | Linux is taking the place of david these days yuhong | Apr 01 03:33 |
| yuhong | I know. | Apr 01 03:33 |
| _Hicham_1 | one thing that prevent drivers from being easily installed is the ever changing Linux Kernel | Apr 01 03:33 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel has no goals about have a stable internal abi. | Apr 01 03:33 |
| yuhong | What I was asking was why MS became Goliath. | Apr 01 03:33 |
| _Hicham_1 | so we have to compile | Apr 01 03:33 |
| oiaohm | There are disadvantages to both methods. | Apr 01 03:34 |
| _Hicham_1 | and relink | Apr 01 03:34 |
| yuhong | I once said that MS’s business tactics were causing MS to become Goliath. | Apr 01 03:34 |
| oiaohm | By having a stable driver abi you can not remove design defect from kernel. | Apr 01 03:34 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel is introduction userspace driver support. | Apr 01 03:34 |
| yuhong | I talked about this with oiaohm and it seems that he agrees, right? | Apr 01 03:34 |
| _Hicham_1 | that would be great | Apr 01 03:35 |
| oiaohm | I agree with Ms becomes Goliath | Apr 01 03:35 |
| _Hicham_1 | is it available in 2.6.29? | Apr 01 03:35 |
| yuhong | I agree, I am talking about why. | Apr 01 03:35 |
| oiaohm | Greed. | Apr 01 03:35 |
