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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 3rd, 2009 - Part 2



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DaemonFCwhat do you expect?Apr 03 12:10
DaemonFCThey elected John Howard how many times?Apr 03 12:11
DaemonFC:)Apr 03 12:11
DaemonFCthey want to say the US is screwed upApr 03 12:11
DaemonFCwe were smart enough to term limitApr 03 12:11
DaemonFCB-)Apr 03 12:11
mattparryroy, I think that you should kick everone who has not posted in the last 1/2 hourApr 03 12:12
DaemonFCthe qualifications for Australian Prime Minister are a pulse and repackaging the same lies every electionApr 03 12:12
DaemonFClolApr 03 12:12
DaemonFCthey have no freedom of speech or expressionApr 03 12:13
DaemonFCtheir internet is about to be censoredApr 03 12:13
DaemonFCjust like Iran'sApr 03 12:13
MinceRmost countries are screwed up in many waysApr 03 12:13
DaemonFCwhat is there to say about Australia?Apr 03 12:13
DaemonFCseriously?Apr 03 12:13
MinceRi thought they recently realized internet censorship is bad and were moving out of it?Apr 03 12:14
DaemonFCat least the US government could never be that bold about censoring free expressionApr 03 12:14
DaemonFCit's unconstitutionalApr 03 12:14
DaemonFCand there's no denying itApr 03 12:14
DaemonFCit's nice that the system works sometimesApr 03 12:15
mattparryok ttfn!!Apr 03 12:16
*mattparry has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Apr 03 12:17
oiaohmschestowitz: It will be interesting to see if the TPM artical gets any reponses.Apr 03 12:17
DaemonFCMinceR: Of course I find it amusing that the people in Australia put up with what they doApr 03 12:17
DaemonFCthey deserve it for electign and re-electing those politiciansApr 03 12:17
oiaohmYou really need to look at the Australian voting system its kinda rigged.Apr 03 12:18
DaemonFChere you use online tax software and it's freeApr 03 12:18
MinceRthey probably have a minority that suffers for these choices made by the majorityApr 03 12:18
DaemonFCyou can use any OS you wanyApr 03 12:18
MinceRjust like i suffer in hungaryApr 03 12:18
DaemonFC*wantApr 03 12:18
DaemonFCif you have a vote that counts jsut as much as anyonesApr 03 12:19
DaemonFCthen you have a fairly elected governmentApr 03 12:19
MinceRso the saying that "every country deserves its government" holds in general, but not for each individualApr 03 12:19
oiaohmProblem here is we have prefence voting.Apr 03 12:19
DaemonFCand nobody is to blame but the people of your countryApr 03 12:19
oiaohmSo the person who gets the most votes might not get the seat due to the way preferences work out.Apr 03 12:20
DaemonFCoiaohm: That's not a bad thing reallyApr 03 12:20
DaemonFChere we get two partiesApr 03 12:20
DaemonFCand they're both crooksApr 03 12:20
oiaohmIt is when you have 3 partiesApr 03 12:20
oiaohmAnd two are the same.Apr 03 12:20
MinceRsadly, we're moving to the "two parties, both crooks" model here, tooApr 03 12:20
oiaohmAny new party that trys to get up here will be put last on preferences.Apr 03 12:21
oiaohmPreferences is a really destructive system.Apr 03 12:21
DaemonFCthere's a lot of parties, but people will go with the Democrats (catch all liberal) or Republicans (catch all regressives/religious loonies/big business)Apr 03 12:21
DaemonFCand they're both just different kinds of badApr 03 12:21
oiaohmWe don't have a lot of parties here.Apr 03 12:22
oiaohmWe have 4.  (Lib Nat)basically the same.  Labor and green.Apr 03 12:22
oiaohmlibreral and Nat are so the same they don't even bother having different policies.Apr 03 12:23
DaemonFCthat's funnyApr 03 12:23
DaemonFCbut they still run candidates against the other?Apr 03 12:23
oiaohmGreens don't compete in every seat.Apr 03 12:23
oiaohmYes they do run candidates against each othr DaemonFCApr 03 12:23
oiaohmMeans working as one they stuff up the perferences system.Apr 03 12:24
DaemonFCdoesn't that jsut split the vote and give the other bastards more of a chance?Apr 03 12:24
DaemonFC:)Apr 03 12:24
oiaohmNot with preferences.Apr 03 12:24
DaemonFCoh ,rightApr 03 12:24
oiaohmReason why I say person should have to vote for 1 candate and 1 candate only.Apr 03 12:25
DaemonFCthen you end up with our systemApr 03 12:25
oiaohmThat might put the wrong person in but cannot be screwed with like agreements can.Apr 03 12:25
schestowitzConficker zombie botnet drops to 3.5 million < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04... >Apr 03 12:25
DaemonFCoiaohm: I don't even really look at who is on the ticketApr 03 12:26
DaemonFCI just tell the machine I want all DemocratsApr 03 12:26
DaemonFClolApr 03 12:26
oiaohmGets worse you only need to put 1 in a box and then the parties preferences get automatically applied.Apr 03 12:26
DaemonFCI push one button and vote for like a dozen people I don't knowApr 03 12:26
oiaohmSo a lot of people here are not aware that the preference system is even in effect.Apr 03 12:26
DaemonFC*and* ObamaApr 03 12:26
DaemonFCyayApr 03 12:26
DaemonFCit doesn't matter if I can't stand the Democrat running for that officeApr 03 12:27
DaemonFCmy only other choice is a Republican who should probably be shotApr 03 12:27
DaemonFCso what the hell?Apr 03 12:27
DaemonFCB-)Apr 03 12:27
DaemonFCso voting in American elections is just a recurring feudApr 03 12:28
DaemonFCI vote for whoever is wearing my team's jacketApr 03 12:29
DaemonFCand come back in another 2 yearsApr 03 12:29
oiaohmEveryone here has to vote.Apr 03 12:30
DaemonFCyeah, that's funnyApr 03 12:30
DaemonFCI don't want everyone to have to voteApr 03 12:30
DaemonFCif you're not motivated to get up and go voteApr 03 12:30
DaemonFCyou made your choiceApr 03 12:30
DaemonFC:PApr 03 12:30
DaemonFCactually, what's wrong is that we've let the biggest business of all tell people who to vote forApr 03 12:32
oiaohmTried that.Apr 03 12:32
DaemonFCthe Christian churchApr 03 12:32
oiaohmAustralians one complete area did not vote at all.Apr 03 12:32
DaemonFCthey take billions of dollarsApr 03 12:33
DaemonFCpay no taxesApr 03 12:33
MinceRyes, cults are another can of wormsApr 03 12:33
DaemonFCand control hundreds of millions of Americans mindsApr 03 12:33
oiaohmBasically here in australia if its not required to vote basically will not happen.Apr 03 12:33
oiaohmIn many areas.Apr 03 12:33
oiaohmWho is going to travel 150 kms just to vote.Apr 03 12:33
DaemonFCI always vote even if I know it won't do any goodApr 03 12:34
DaemonFCif there's no Democrat running, I vote LibertarianApr 03 12:34
DaemonFCif no Libertarian, I vote a write inApr 03 12:35
oiaohmHow far do you have to go to vote.Apr 03 12:35
DaemonFCif there's nothing but a RepublicanApr 03 12:35
oiaohmthis is the problem here.Apr 03 12:35
DaemonFCI leave that one blankApr 03 12:35
DaemonFCoh, I just walked a couple blocksApr 03 12:35
DaemonFCto the courthouseApr 03 12:35
oiaohmExactly simple.Apr 03 12:36
*tacone (n=tacone@93-32-186-60.ip34.fastwebnet.it) has joined #boycottnovellApr 03 12:36
taconegood afternoon.Apr 03 12:36
oiaohmSome of our areas that people have to center point vote in is over 400 km across DaemonFCApr 03 12:36
oiaohmHi taconeApr 03 12:36
DaemonFCdamnApr 03 12:37
DaemonFCno mail-in ballots?Apr 03 12:37
oiaohmThey restrict use of them.Apr 03 12:37
oiaohmSo if you had to go 200 km to vote each year would you be as likely to do it DaemonFCApr 03 12:38
DaemonFCprobably notApr 03 12:38
oiaohmThat is the problem here and some of the large areas without law they just would not vote that simple.Apr 03 12:38
oiaohmSo you would have a seat with no one voted in.Apr 03 12:38
oiaohmThat kinda causes all kinds of problems.Apr 03 12:39
MinceRit has a certain charm :>Apr 03 12:39
oiaohmParticularly the last time when it was the blance of power.Apr 03 12:39
schestowitzGoogle might buy Twitter: http://tech.yahoo.com/news/nm/200... Todd Bishop already talks about it. It would be more valuable than Digg.Apr 03 12:39
oiaohmNice nasty delock problem DaemonFCApr 03 12:40
DaemonFCanyway MinceR: The problem with XFS, the _only_ problem it has ever given meApr 03 12:41
DaemonFCit's horrendously slow when deleting thousands of small filesApr 03 12:41
DaemonFCotherwise, great file systemApr 03 12:41
MinceRwell then you were lucky with itApr 03 12:41
oiaohmI have had to data recover xfsApr 03 12:41
oiaohma few timesApr 03 12:41
MinceRiirc Andrew Morton said that it actually wouldn't be too difficult to implement data journaling for XFS and they might do it somedayApr 03 12:41
oiaohmNTFS is almost 1 a month.Apr 03 12:41
DaemonFCit can take XFS minutes to delete a kernel source folderApr 03 12:42
DaemonFCtakes Ext4 like 3 secondsApr 03 12:42
DaemonFCno, not kiddingApr 03 12:42
taconeNovell is getting such a bad rap this daysApr 03 12:42
MinceRall fs-es have their strong and weak pointsApr 03 12:42
tacones/this/theseApr 03 12:42
MinceRtacone: well deservedApr 03 12:42
oiaohmNovell wrap sheet for doing wrong is long.Apr 03 12:42
taconeis there anything they can do to recover ? even their ceo is so sorry about that.Apr 03 12:42
DaemonFCMinceR: YOu still never answeredApr 03 12:42
DaemonFCif Red Hat and Novell disappeared, and with them, half the work on the Linux kernelApr 03 12:43
oiaohmNovell used the law to destroy SCO taconeApr 03 12:43
DaemonFCwhat would be next?Apr 03 12:43
DaemonFCis that a good thing?Apr 03 12:43
taconeoiaohm: so ?Apr 03 12:43
MinceRDaemonFC: you mean, half the code of the kernel magically disappeared?Apr 03 12:43
MinceRDaemonFC: we'd rewrite itApr 03 12:43
taconewas SCO a good thing ?Apr 03 12:43
MinceRthings like that get rewritten eventually anywayApr 03 12:43
oiaohmNovell did the contract that tricked SCO into thinking they owned UNIX.Apr 03 12:43
DaemonFCno, I mean all of a sudden, several HUNDRED kernel developers could no longer work on itApr 03 12:43
DaemonFCwhat would happen?Apr 03 12:43
MinceRDaemonFC: others would continue the workApr 03 12:44
oiaohmSo the complete SCO mess was started and ended by Novell.Apr 03 12:44
DaemonFCotheres where?Apr 03 12:44
DaemonFCfrom a company?Apr 03 12:44
DaemonFCwhich one?Apr 03 12:44
taconeinstead it was SCO to be owned  :-)Apr 03 12:44
MinceRDaemonFC: and it would still be developed much faster than other kernels in the worldApr 03 12:44
DaemonFCno, Linux would fade awayApr 03 12:44
DaemonFCif not for companies that work on itApr 03 12:44
oiaohmSCO is not even the first company Novell has done that to.Apr 03 12:44
MinceRDaemonFC: which company did Linus work for when he started the kernel?Apr 03 12:44
DaemonFCtoday 76% of the kernel contributions come from paid software programmersApr 03 12:45
DaemonFCworking for a companyApr 03 12:45
MinceRand from that 76% percent you deduce that nobody would work on itApr 03 12:45
MinceRbrilliantApr 03 12:45
DaemonFCso you mean to say that with 24% of the current developers that Linux would thrive?Apr 03 12:45
MinceRyes, it wouldApr 03 12:45
MinceRand it would get more developersApr 03 12:45
DaemonFCwithout companies, Linux would not be where it isApr 03 12:46
DaemonFCIntel and AMD write drivers and firmwares for their boards and CPUsApr 03 12:46
DaemonFCwhat of that?Apr 03 12:46
MinceRand without certain companies you admire so much it wouldn't be threatened the way it isApr 03 12:46
DaemonFCwell, you wouldn't have Linux if not for themApr 03 12:46
MinceRDaemonFC: i think it's reasonable to expect hw vendors to write drivers for their stuffApr 03 12:46
DaemonFCso be grateful they gave it to youApr 03 12:47
MinceRhow else do you think those driver cd-s for hw with windows drivers on them appear?Apr 03 12:47
MinceRdo they grow on trees or something?Apr 03 12:47
MinceRDaemonFC: novell didn't give linux to meApr 03 12:47
DaemonFCIntel and AMD have no reason to care if your desktop works with LinuxApr 03 12:47
MinceRthey have more reason to care now than they did when they started supporting itApr 03 12:47
DaemonFCexcept that they compete with each otherApr 03 12:47
DaemonFCif they only made drivers for Windows, you would use WindowsApr 03 12:48
DaemonFCyou would have toApr 03 12:48
MinceRor i would use other hwApr 03 12:48
MinceRor i would write the drivers myselfApr 03 12:48
MinceRand i'd curse them for not doing it, rightlyApr 03 12:48
MinceRor an independent programmer would do itApr 03 12:48
DaemonFCyou don't have the resources they doApr 03 12:48
DaemonFCLinux could never thrive without commercial supportApr 03 12:49
oiaohmhttp://lwn.net/Articles/324046/  IBM and Novell not that big of numbers in the overall picture.Apr 03 12:49
MinceRit's funny how you keep claim things are impossible that have happened many times alreadyApr 03 12:49
MinceRs/laim/laiming/Apr 03 12:49
DaemonFCit would still be a broken mish mash of half implemented stuff that worked if you were luckyApr 03 12:49
MinceRDaemonFC: stop reiterating the same false crap over and over again, it's boringApr 03 12:49
MinceRyou're like a stuck recordApr 03 12:49
oiaohmLinux developers number in the thousands per release.Apr 03 12:49
DaemonFCyeah, that would be a hundred or soApr 03 12:50
DaemonFCif no commercial supportApr 03 12:50
oiaohmLoss of 1000 developers is not project destroying.Apr 03 12:50
oiaohmOk for the Linux kernel.Apr 03 12:50
oiaohmThinking there are over 1000 without any company support.Apr 03 12:50
DaemonFCGNU HURD is what you get with a community projectApr 03 12:50
DaemonFC25 years old and doesn't workApr 03 12:50
MinceRno, GNU HURD is what you get with a very difficult projectApr 03 12:51
oiaohmHURD is a prick.Apr 03 12:51
MinceRtell me one successful microkernelApr 03 12:51
MinceRone that really is a microkernel the way it's used.Apr 03 12:51
DaemonFCMINIX could beApr 03 12:51
MinceR_could_Apr 03 12:51
oiaohmHurd problem is crash loops.Apr 03 12:51
DaemonFCbut doesn't get the loveApr 03 12:51
MinceRit isn't.Apr 03 12:51
DaemonFCMINIX is a hell of a lot better example than HURDApr 03 12:51
DaemonFCat least MINIX worksApr 03 12:51
oiaohmSo by the time you know you have a problem you don't have the data that set off loop.Apr 03 12:51
MinceRi know, it isn't GNU so it must be perfect.Apr 03 12:52
*MinceR yawnsApr 03 12:52
oiaohmMinix logs crashes clearly.Apr 03 12:52
DaemonFCthe GNU people are hippiesApr 03 12:52
oiaohmHURD does not.Apr 03 12:52
DaemonFCcomplete with UNIX beardsApr 03 12:52
DaemonFCand that dazed Acid lookApr 03 12:52
MinceRDaemonFC: and communists!Apr 03 12:52
MinceRDaemonFC: so why don't you go back to your all-american microsoft products already?Apr 03 12:52
MinceRthey're so great and you admire m$ so much...Apr 03 12:53
oiaohmLinux did not have commerical support for all its life.Apr 03 12:53
DaemonFCmost work on Linux happens here tooApr 03 12:53
DaemonFCso it's goodApr 03 12:53
DaemonFC;)Apr 03 12:53
oiaohmYou have to cross a threshold to get commerial support.Apr 03 12:53
oiaohmIe where the code can make profit.Apr 03 12:53
DaemonFCRed HatApr 03 12:54
DaemonFCRed Hat has been around a long timeApr 03 12:54
oiaohmOne of the first commericalsApr 03 12:54
MinceRand they seem to be turning evil now.Apr 03 12:54
oiaohmLoss of them would be a far large problem than Novell.Apr 03 12:54
MinceRwell, not so recently actuallyApr 03 12:54
DaemonFCthey were really the only Linux worth giving a second look atApr 03 12:54
DaemonFCtil about 2004Apr 03 12:54
MinceRmore personal opinions.Apr 03 12:55
DaemonFCheheApr 03 12:55
DaemonFCnot reallyApr 03 12:55
DaemonFCDebian has always been a broken messApr 03 12:55
MinceRand red hat hasn't.Apr 03 12:55
DaemonFCRed Hat has generally workedApr 03 12:55
MinceRlolApr 03 12:55
DaemonFCand given you someone to call if it didn'tApr 03 12:55
MinceRlolApr 03 12:56
DaemonFCthat's like the anti-DebianApr 03 12:56
MinceRyou're hilariousApr 03 12:56
DaemonFCSeriously, Debian is like the crappiest distribution there ever has beenApr 03 12:56
oiaohmThere is way worse than DebianApr 03 12:56
DaemonFCif any software is under active development, it may change and is unfit for DebianApr 03 12:56
DaemonFCoh you can TRY and use Testing, but that's still not guaranteed to be new stuffApr 03 12:57
DaemonFCand there are bugsApr 03 12:57
*tacone (n=tacone@93-32-186-60.ip34.fastwebnet.it) has left #boycottnovell ("ERROR: crap-talking overflow - Aborting.")Apr 03 12:57
oiaohmDebian Testing is still way safter than Fedora.Apr 03 12:57
DaemonFCthat's what I meant by Ubuntu has made a credible Debian-like distroApr 03 12:57
oiaohmThe complete distribution model is wrong.Apr 03 12:58
oiaohmThe idea that a release has to contain all stuff from the same time frame.Apr 03 12:58
DaemonFCDebian is suitable for maybe a server or a workstation, but completely inappropriate for multimedia, gaming, cool stuffApr 03 12:58
oiaohmIs bassically wrong.  Don't care if more stable and safer stuff has been release we sticking with what as released in that time frame.Apr 03 12:59
oiaohmUbuntu is just as gulity of it.Apr 03 12:59
DaemonFCit is not an OS you want on your desktopApr 03 12:59
oiaohmI use debian as my desktop.Apr 03 12:59
oiaohmBecause I want stablity.Apr 03 12:59
DaemonFCmy condolencesApr 03 12:59
oiaohmI have had way less problems with it than ubuntus.Apr 03 12:59
oiaohmOr fedorasApr 03 12:59
DaemonFCthen their compiler in stable gets so old that new kernels refuse to build with itApr 03 13:00
DaemonFClolApr 03 13:00
oiaohmCome on who is the mad buggers in them who thinks pulseaudio is good.Apr 03 13:00
DaemonFCI use PulseaudioApr 03 13:00
oiaohmSorry that is not true.Apr 03 13:00
oiaohmI build 2.6.29 with default debian complier.Apr 03 13:00
DaemonFCyou can remove the blacklistingApr 03 13:00
DaemonFCbut that's not a good ideaApr 03 13:00
DaemonFC2.6.29 won't build with 4.1 or earlierApr 03 13:01
MinceRwhat do you recommend for audio over network? :>Apr 03 13:01
oiaohmPulseaudio has many creative ways to stuff up.Apr 03 13:01
DaemonFCI'm using Pulseaudio 0.9.15 with timer-based settingsApr 03 13:01
DaemonFCnot interrupt-basedApr 03 13:01
oiaohmThat can screw up.Apr 03 13:01
DaemonFCnot on my kernelApr 03 13:02
DaemonFCheheeApr 03 13:02
oiaohmkernel is not  the issue.Apr 03 13:02
DaemonFCyeahApr 03 13:02
DaemonFCit isApr 03 13:02
oiaohmPulseaudio screws it self up.Apr 03 13:02
DaemonFCnoApr 03 13:02
DaemonFCkernel settingsApr 03 13:02
DaemonFCit fucks up with dynamic ticksApr 03 13:02
oiaohmWine + Pulseaudio + right applications.Apr 03 13:02
DaemonFCroyallyApr 03 13:02
oiaohmIs dead man walking.Apr 03 13:03
DaemonFCryan@ryan-desktop:~$ uname -aApr 03 13:03
DaemonFCLinux ryan-desktop 2.6.29-git9-ryan1 #1 SMP PREEMPT Wed Apr 1 21:20:36 EDT 2009 x86_64 GNU/LinuxApr 03 13:03
oiaohmYep even with that kind of combination.Apr 03 13:03
MinceRso DaemonFC is basically saying pulseaudio is good except it fucks up with dynamic ticksApr 03 13:03
MinceRi'd say then it isn't good. :>Apr 03 13:03
DaemonFCdynamic ticks is fucking stupidApr 03 13:03
DaemonFCon a desktopApr 03 13:03
DaemonFC:)Apr 03 13:03
MinceRyes, and consuming low power is fucking stupid tooApr 03 13:03
DaemonFCpardon my frenchApr 03 13:03
oiaohmUserspace audio is stupid too.Apr 03 13:03
DaemonFCthe PSU uses about as much either wayApr 03 13:04
DaemonFCso you save nothingApr 03 13:04
MinceRmixing in userspace isn't necessarily stupidApr 03 13:04
MinceRDaemonFC: depends on the PSUApr 03 13:04
DaemonFCif you're on a battery (laptop) dynamic ticks makes senseApr 03 13:04
*MinceR is on a laptopApr 03 13:04
oiaohmPulseaudio has more problems than just dynamic ticks.Apr 03 13:04
DaemonFCwell you goApr 03 13:04
DaemonFC:)Apr 03 13:04
oiaohmIt hates hybernation as well.Apr 03 13:04
MinceRalso, your PSU isn't going to waste less just because your CPU is crunching away.Apr 03 13:04
MinceRand then we didn't even mention virtualized systems :>Apr 03 13:05
amarsh04I've transcoded video, and burned dvd's based on transcoded data that played fine on convention dvd players using Debian unstable with www.debian-multimedia.org repositories on this PII-266Apr 03 13:05
DaemonFCDynamic Ticks off, HZ=1000, CONFIG_PREEMPT=Y, preemptible RCUApr 03 13:05
oiaohmDo you know the one problem with CONFIG_PREEMPTApr 03 13:05
DaemonFCnopeApr 03 13:05
DaemonFCused it for yearsApr 03 13:06
oiaohmYou can screw X11 up from time to time because CPU time does not get to it.Apr 03 13:06
oiaohmBasically put enough load on pulseaudio and cry.Apr 03 13:06
DaemonFChttp://pastebin.com/d16b7d606Apr 03 13:07
DaemonFChave fun B-)Apr 03 13:07
MinceRisn't preempting about interrupting kernel code?Apr 03 13:07
*amarsh04 doesn't use pulseaudio, but does have CONFIG_PREEMPT=yApr 03 13:07
oiaohmIt about over riding BKL.Apr 03 13:07
oiaohmThere are sometimes you should not do that.Apr 03 13:08
DaemonFCCONFIG_PREEMPT_RCU=yApr 03 13:08
DaemonFCdon't forget thatApr 03 13:08
DaemonFCB-)Apr 03 13:08
oiaohmDaemonFC: I have run on those kinds of combinations.Apr 03 13:08
oiaohmthey don't save you from quite a few glitchs pulseaudio has.Apr 03 13:09
oiaohmpulseaudio is also a very old school design.Apr 03 13:09
DaemonFC# CONFIG_EXT2_FS is not set # CONFIG_EXT3_FS is not set # CONFIG_REISERFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_JFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_XFS_FS is not setApr 03 13:09
DaemonFClolApr 03 13:09
oiaohmIts going to cause major problems as containers in the Linux kernel gets more developed.Apr 03 13:10
DaemonFCCONFIG_EXT4_FS=yApr 03 13:10
oiaohmContainers allow applications to be suspended 1 at a time.Apr 03 13:10
oiaohmUnless they are hooked to something like pulseaudio.Apr 03 13:10
oiaohmSo everything hooked to pulseaudio will have to be supended at once.Apr 03 13:10
oiaohmNote DRI2 X11 provides the tech to avoid that problem from containers for X11.Apr 03 13:11
oiaohmThere is no place in modern OS design for a item Like pulseaudio.Apr 03 13:11
MinceRthere would be place for a network-transparent sound serverApr 03 13:12
DaemonFCI'm sure that's why they're making PulseaudioApr 03 13:12
DaemonFCcause they want to finish with a product that's obsoleteApr 03 13:12
DaemonFCright off the batApr 03 13:12
DaemonFCB-)Apr 03 13:12
DaemonFC /sarcasmApr 03 13:12
oiaohmLets list what containers have.  Means to transfer applications from machine to machine over network.Apr 03 13:13
oiaohmMeans to hibernate applications.Apr 03 13:13
oiaohmMeans to control access to most resources bar audio so far.Apr 03 13:13
oiaohmCluster filesystems are used with containers to make network movement simpler.Apr 03 13:14
oiaohmBasically audio should be done as a OS kernel container.Apr 03 13:14
oiaohmNot as a sound server.Apr 03 13:14
oiaohmTo make sure audio setting data and ques and the like can travel with applications when transfered.Apr 03 13:15
oiaohmor suspended.Apr 03 13:15
oiaohmBasically pulseaudio is old school the last in the line of a long line of sound servers that have failed.Apr 03 13:15
oiaohmAnd they are expecting out come to be different this time.Apr 03 13:16
MinceRwill that work over the network?Apr 03 13:16
oiaohmTo completely work over a network in every way you need containers anyhow MinceRApr 03 13:17
oiaohmWhat is the point of having a audio application stutter when another machine near you does not have load.Apr 03 13:17
MinceRi can give the sound server more priority if that's a problemApr 03 13:17
oiaohmFull network support need to include if required moving the application over network as well as transfering sound.Apr 03 13:17
oiaohmIf you have a application from server outputing sound on a client.Apr 03 13:18
oiaohmserver has load  client has none.  why the hell would you keep on running the application on the server.Apr 03 13:18
oiaohmOnly reason is that you cannot transfer it.Apr 03 13:18
oiaohmThe problem with pulseaudio it blocks transfering of applications.Apr 03 13:19
oiaohmPulseaudio is designed old school before over network transfering of applications existed.Apr 03 13:20
DaemonFCPulseaudio is transparentApr 03 13:20
DaemonFCeven stupid crap that asks for ALS or OSS gets Pulseaudio anywayApr 03 13:20
oiaohmI am not talking about transparent DaemonFCApr 03 13:20
DaemonFCand is not even awareApr 03 13:20
oiaohmIf you need transparnet you use gstreamer from an application developer point of view.Apr 03 13:21
oiaohmPulseaudio is nothing more than a middle man not designed to do the required tasks.Apr 03 13:22
oiaohmSending audio over network is only 1 part of the problem.Apr 03 13:22
oiaohmSending applications over network is the other half.Apr 03 13:22
oiaohmWho would not like if there desktop could follow them from machine to machine.Apr 03 13:23
DaemonFCPulseaudio handles mixing that ALSA is incapable of aloneApr 03 13:23
oiaohmWithout stopping.Apr 03 13:23
DaemonFCALSA by itself belongs in 1995Apr 03 13:23
oiaohmDid I say ALSA was good enough for this job.Apr 03 13:24
oiaohmNo I did not.Apr 03 13:24
DaemonFCPulseaudio is a band aidApr 03 13:24
DaemonFCmasking some of ALSA's pure shitnessApr 03 13:24
DaemonFCB-)Apr 03 13:24
oiaohmMixing Pulseaudio does can be done in ALSA with 1 minor hack.Apr 03 13:24
oiaohmStoring information about audio volume in a cgroup.Apr 03 13:24
DaemonFCmost Pulseaudio problems are caused by distributionsApr 03 13:24
oiaohmAnd replace dmix with something better.Apr 03 13:24
DaemonFCmisconfiguring itApr 03 13:24
oiaohmBULL.Apr 03 13:25
DaemonFCUbuntu Hardy is a PRIME exampleApr 03 13:25
oiaohmMost is caused by Pulseaudio trying to be a extrea middle layour.Apr 03 13:25
DaemonFCof dipshits tinkering with somethign they don't understandApr 03 13:25
oiaohmMore layers you stack the more problems you have.Apr 03 13:25
oiaohmIts like xcb vs xlib.Apr 03 13:25
oiaohmxcb less layours between you and the x11 server.Apr 03 13:25
DaemonFCDas Machine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren musten keepen das cotten-pickenen hands in das pockets - relaxen und watchen das blinkenlights.Apr 03 13:26
DaemonFC:)Apr 03 13:26
oiaohmSo runs nice and tidy on memory.Apr 03 13:26
oiaohmPulseaudio cannot operate on top of dmix.Apr 03 13:26
oiaohmDue to dmix causing too much lag.Apr 03 13:26
DaemonFCUbuntu's developers are fucking idiots ran by a braindead bureaucracyApr 03 13:26
DaemonFCit's all in the detailsApr 03 13:27
DaemonFCand they get those wrongApr 03 13:27
oiaohmYou cannot disable pulseaudio and use a lot of sound cards with wine due to no dmix.Apr 03 13:27
*MinceR suspects DaemonFC runs ubuntuApr 03 13:27
oiaohmBasically pulseaudio does not work right all the time yet.Apr 03 13:27
oiaohmYet it does not have a good fall back location.Apr 03 13:27
oiaohmBasically pulseaudio is picking on users.Apr 03 13:28
oiaohmYelling at projects like wine that you must build pulseaudio drivers.Apr 03 13:28
DaemonFCMinceR: With a LOT of customizations to restore sanity to ALSA and the kernelApr 03 13:28
DaemonFCI may as well just fork their shitApr 03 13:28
DaemonFCfix itApr 03 13:28
DaemonFCand host itApr 03 13:28
oiaohmSo a project like wine would have to maintain even more drivers.Apr 03 13:28
oiaohmSo sound from them would be more usntable.Apr 03 13:29
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DaemonFCWine is not all that greatApr 03 13:29
DaemonFCI have to use the OSS driverApr 03 13:29
MinceRwhy do i get the feeling that DaemonFC finds the products he hates the most, made by the people he hates the most, uses them and then complains? :>Apr 03 13:29
oiaohmOnly team at the moment with common sence in the audio group is gstreamer.Apr 03 13:29
DaemonFCcause it demands a particular version of ALSA libsApr 03 13:29
oiaohmDaemonFC: Wine works perfectly fine with ALSA it self.Apr 03 13:29
DaemonFCor else it bitches and screamsApr 03 13:29
DaemonFCno it doesn'tApr 03 13:29
DaemonFCunless you use the version it expectsApr 03 13:29
oiaohmSorry it does.Apr 03 13:29
DaemonFCno, you only think it doesApr 03 13:30
oiaohmI am one of the support people for wine.Apr 03 13:30
oiaohmI know that section well.Apr 03 13:30
DaemonFCso riddle me thisApr 03 13:30
oiaohmMain reason pulseaudio does not work.Apr 03 13:30
MinceRriddle me thatApr 03 13:30
MinceRwho's afraid of a big black bat?Apr 03 13:30
DaemonFCerr:module:load_builtin_dll failed to load .so lib for builtin L"winealsa.drv": /usr/bin/../lib32/wine/winealsa.drv.so: symbol snd_pcm_forward, version ALSA_0.9.0rc8 not defined in file libasound.so.2 with link time referenceApr 03 13:30
oiaohmYes Ubuntu user.Apr 03 13:31
oiaohmSomeone enabled versioning.Apr 03 13:31
DaemonFCI'm using a newer ALSA libApr 03 13:31
oiaohmwhen it was built.Apr 03 13:31
DaemonFCthan comes with JauntyApr 03 13:31
oiaohmIts not a feature of the wine source code it self.Apr 03 13:31
oiaohmIts a added build flag.Apr 03 13:31
DaemonFCsee what I meanApr 03 13:32
DaemonFCwhy version check?Apr 03 13:32
DaemonFCyou know what your distro usesApr 03 13:32
oiaohmGo choke the package maker.Apr 03 13:32
oiaohmHe added a flag.Apr 03 13:32
oiaohmThe flag means all symbols used by application are versioned.Apr 03 13:33
oiaohmProblem is ALSA does not version all there symbols.Apr 03 13:33
oiaohmBuild the ALSA driver with versioned sysbols you cause that.Apr 03 13:33
DaemonFCI emailed Scott RitchieApr 03 13:35
oiaohmIt bit like debian building openssl with random disabled DaemonFCApr 03 13:35
DaemonFChehApr 03 13:35
DaemonFCthat's another act of blatant fucktardary on Debian's partApr 03 13:35
oiaohmUbuntu copedApr 03 13:35
oiaohmcopiedApr 03 13:35
DaemonFCyeah, Ubuntu is basically a refork of Debian Unstable every 6 monthsApr 03 13:36
DaemonFCnot completely, but mainlyApr 03 13:36
oiaohmYou would think checking important secuirty things would be wise when reforking.Apr 03 13:36
DaemonFCthey aren't smart enoughApr 03 13:36
DaemonFCthey have an automatic repo clone utilityApr 03 13:37
oiaohmSo human errors get missed.Apr 03 13:37
DaemonFCand some monkeys that know how to apply patches from DebianApr 03 13:37
DaemonFCvery few people at Ubuntu know their ass from next TuesdayApr 03 13:37
DaemonFCand anyone that does gets hired by Red HatApr 03 13:37
DaemonFC:)Apr 03 13:38
oiaohmDebian is patch insane.Apr 03 13:38
oiaohmLot of my debian has parts replaced.Apr 03 13:38
DaemonFCI can name one person in all of UbuntuApr 03 13:38
DaemonFCthat is competentApr 03 13:39
oiaohmWe will not update.Apr 03 13:39
oiaohmWe will patch.Apr 03 13:39
oiaohmSeams to be Debian and Ubuntu got it as well.Apr 03 13:39
DaemonFCScott James RemnantApr 03 13:39
DaemonFChe's fairly brightApr 03 13:39
oiaohmScott still over patches.Apr 03 13:39
DaemonFCprobably has a nice career at Red hat at some pointApr 03 13:39
oiaohmPast a particular point you should just upgrade that package.Apr 03 13:40
DaemonFCI knowApr 03 13:40
oiaohmPatch on top of Patch can create problems.Apr 03 13:40
DaemonFCI cringe when I see like "ubuntu9"Apr 03 13:40
DaemonFCI'm thinking "You fucking idiots!"Apr 03 13:40
DaemonFCmmhmApr 03 13:40
oiaohmSo we agree on that point.Apr 03 13:40
DaemonFCthey end up applying partial patchesApr 03 13:41
DaemonFCcause they depend on something that looks totally unrelatedApr 03 13:41
DaemonFCso they have to turn around and update that entire package againApr 03 13:41
DaemonFCthe next dayApr 03 13:41
DaemonFCB-)Apr 03 13:42
DaemonFCX Server in Ubuntu is particularly heinous about thatApr 03 13:42
oiaohmIts lack of understanding the point of no return.Apr 03 13:42
DaemonFCI won't even update it anymore unless I have reason to give a shitApr 03 13:42
oiaohmOne something is altered so much you are basically forking it.Apr 03 13:43
DaemonFCcause I have to rebuild my fucking Nvidia driuverApr 03 13:43
DaemonFCit's unreasonableApr 03 13:43
oiaohmSo items like Nvidia drivers screw up with it.Apr 03 13:43
oiaohmHow are they to know that 1.6.0,,,, is a hugely incompadible fork.Apr 03 13:44
DaemonFCif it upgrades xserver-xorg-core you need to remove and reinstall nvidiaApr 03 13:44
DaemonFCunless you're using their module on their kernelsApr 03 13:44
DaemonFC:PApr 03 13:44
oiaohmAlso not updated as often as it should be.Apr 03 13:45
DaemonFCI had to edit the Nvidia kernel interface sourceApr 03 13:45
DaemonFCto remove deprecated garbageApr 03 13:45
DaemonFCthat 2.6.29-git8 didn't likeApr 03 13:45
oiaohmI also only run stable version kernels.Apr 03 13:46
oiaohmUbuntu kernel is a fork off the main.Apr 03 13:46
DaemonFCI won't run theirsApr 03 13:47
DaemonFCunstable pile of shitApr 03 13:47
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oiaohmHmm ubuntu indepedant braches have not been touched since 2.6.26Apr 03 13:52
oiaohmSo they must have moved to taking from the front edge of the kernel without good testing.Apr 03 13:53
oiaohmUbuntu alphas are as bad as Fedora diving.Apr 03 13:53
schestowitzInquirer does TV now...  http://intruders.tv/inqtv/200...Apr 03 14:03
schestowitzMicrosoft To Officially Become a Monopoly in Russia < http://profy.com/2009/04/02/mi... >Apr 03 14:07
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mib_ln72p7hi allApr 03 14:10
mib_ln72p7please can someone help me with regards to not being able to open a fileApr 03 14:10
oiaohmHi mib_ln72p7Apr 03 14:10
schestowitzMicrosoft and Novell work as one: http://tirania.org/blog/archi...Apr 03 14:11
schestowitzMaybe that's what the "work as one" motto is aboutApr 03 14:11
schestowitzMicrosoft addicts developers to Windows and Novell addicts them to .NET and VSApr 03 14:11
schestowitzmib_ln72p7: which file?Apr 03 14:11
*DaemonFC rewrites schestowitz in a combination of C# with portions of message passing VB.NetApr 03 14:13
DaemonFC:)Apr 03 14:13
mib_ln72p7well im currently at college and did a 4000 word assignment last night yet wen i tried to open the file, it says its corrupt (its a microsoft Word document)Apr 03 14:14
DaemonFCprobably crashed before it got committed?Apr 03 14:14
mib_ln72p7so would i be able to restore it?Apr 03 14:15
DaemonFCI think Microsoft had a doc repair utility at one pointApr 03 14:16
DaemonFCI really have no idea thoughApr 03 14:16
mib_ln72p7oh ok thenApr 03 14:16
mib_ln72p7thanksApr 03 14:16
DaemonFCI think it truncated the fileApr 03 14:17
DaemonFCso you could save at least some of itApr 03 14:17
DaemonFC:)Apr 03 14:17
oiaohmtry openofficeApr 03 14:23
oiaohmIts more determined.Apr 03 14:23
oiaohmsame with abiword.Apr 03 14:24
oiaohmThey are more likely to open a part file than MS office.Apr 03 14:24
mib_ln72p7well ive tried to use a file repair and all that but still no joyApr 03 14:33
schestowitzWhat's in the file? Did you e-mail it to anyone prior to Word breaking it?Apr 03 14:37
oiaohmAt least you did not have what I fixed today.Apr 03 14:38
oiaohmA person laptop was pretending to be in fresh install state.Apr 03 14:39
oiaohmSo yep everything gone.Apr 03 14:39
oiaohmBar windows.Apr 03 14:39
schestowitzoiaohm: some comments on 2.6.30: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/...Apr 03 14:40
mib_ln72p7erm no i didnt email itApr 03 14:40
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schestowitzMicrosoft is banged by two superpowers in one day: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/03/mi...Apr 03 14:50
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schestowitzmib_ln72p7: if you renamed the file or move it around (less likely), then there is a meager chance if it being somewhere on the disc (recoverable)Apr 03 14:51
schestowitzOh, he leftApr 03 14:51
schestowitzMicrosoft Office has shown its great strengths just now. Ruining people's hard work and driving them to misery. Never happened to me with TeX or LyX in 8 years of use....Apr 03 14:52
MinceR(offtopic) (java) (addictive) http://andyslife.org/ga...Apr 03 14:52
schestowitzIn Soviet Russian, Microsoft finesApr 03 14:53
schestowitzIn Soviet Russian, Microsoft fines YOUApr 03 14:53
schestowitz*RussiaApr 03 14:54
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iwmwis there soviet russia nowadays?Apr 03 14:58
schestowitziwmw: it's a jokeApr 03 15:00
schestowitzReversalApr 03 15:00
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...Apr 03 15:01
schestowitzThe US seems to be letting MS control national security: Senate Legislation Would Federalize Cybersecurity < http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/c... >Apr 03 15:01
schestowitzHere is the post which summarises how Microsoft inherited DHS: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/...Apr 03 15:02
iwmwin soviet russia m$ pays YOUApr 03 15:03
iwmw^that's more likelyApr 03 15:04
oiaohmhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/03/...  Had to add a post TiVo-ization is more than just blocking root from editing stuff.Apr 03 15:04
oiaohmNormal selinux can do that.Apr 03 15:04
schestowitz"The MPAA says that box office attendance has been on the rise since the economy has tanked, with people looking to the "escape of the theater" to take their minds off more serious matters." < http://arstechnica.com/media/news... >Apr 03 15:06
schestowitzBeen a long time since we last discuses economics here. I spend time speaking about it face to face almost every day...Apr 03 15:06
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schestowitzI suffer from a common typo: /s/Russian/Russia/Apr 03 15:23
schestowitzMicrosoft Announces new Linux MVP < http://developingux.com/2009/04/01/mic... >Apr 03 15:28
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schestowitzOld article on the failure of security: http://www.securityabsurdity....Apr 03 15:34
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schestowitzASUS is still with GNU/Linux... this time on phones: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/...Apr 03 15:35
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schestowitzNew 'party line': The Open Source Enterprise Trap < http://www.h-online.com/open/The-Open-Source-E... >Apr 03 15:42
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schestowitzUS tells ships to clean up fumes or stay away < http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn... >Apr 03 15:43
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schestowitzRussia for Free software: http://neteffect.foreignpolicy.com/post... "While the rest of the world has been battling Bill Gates' empire for almost two decades, it's only now that Russia has waken up to the challenge and has placed the company on a government antitrust watchlist."Apr 03 15:47
schestowitzhttp://www.computerworlduk.com/communit... "So that just leaves poor old MIDs as Moblin's heartland. The fact that Moblin is moving to the Linux Foundation – not a bad move in itself – suggests to me that its sponsors have realised that things have moved on, and that Moblin has served its purpose of getting people thinking about this space."Apr 03 15:49
schestowitzIs Moblin simply giving up to ARM/Linux and other embedded combos?Apr 03 15:49
zer0c00luser Open source software and open standards for IT based health reforms http://www.hindu.com/2009/04/03/...Apr 03 15:50
schestowitzNice way of tracking politicians: http://ouseful.wordpress.com/200...Apr 03 15:51
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Omar87Hi guys.Apr 03 15:54
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Omar87I just HATE it when people talk to me about M$ as if it were the Lord of IT!!! ><Apr 03 15:55
Omar87It aches me!! It friggin' hurts me!!Apr 03 15:56
schestowitzYou can walk awayApr 03 16:02
schestowitzMicrosoft injured progress in computing, esp. on desktopsApr 03 16:02
schestowitzPredictable... when you sell Windows for $4: "Microsoft losing control of netbooks"  < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquire... >Apr 03 16:05
Omar87schestowitz: I know, but it really hurts.Apr 03 16:07
schestowitzApart from typos, look at the FUD thrown by NPD: "Return rates [on Linux netbooks] were pretty high and that's why you don't seem them any more," Stephen Baker, vice president for industry analysis at NPD Techworld, told InternetNews.com. Apr 03 16:07
schestowitzhttp://www.internetnews.com/bus-news... This confirms NPD's bais in favour of Microsoft. The return rates area actually the same based on ASUS and Dell.Apr 03 16:07
Omar87schestowitz: If you ever come to Jordan, and listen to those Microsoft dolls yapping bull crap about MS, you'll understand exactly what I'm talking about.Apr 03 16:08
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schestowitzWe have enough of these"dolls" here.Apr 03 16:08
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schestowitzJust in: Shuttleworth: Vista 7 an Opportunity for Linux < http://www.internetnews.com/hardware/arti... >Apr 03 16:11
schestowitzIt seems as though IBM will indeed be buying Sun and an announcement come within days.Apr 03 16:12
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Balrogyes, I've seenApr 03 16:13
Balroggood or bad?Apr 03 16:13
joseschestowitz, i have a quick question ..trying to remember a particular quote from the ms exec onesApr 03 16:14
schestowitzBBC headline: "Residents challenge Google camera" Compare to CNN: "Gang of villagers chase away Google car"Apr 03 16:14
iwmwis asus always linux compatible?Apr 03 16:15
iwmwi mean for desktopsApr 03 16:15
schestowitzBalrog: mostly bad, I think.Apr 03 16:15
schestowitzjose: how did the quote go?Apr 03 16:15
joseit's where an exec says something to the effect "once we give away a patent right we can't gain it back"Apr 03 16:15
schestowitziwmw: yes, pretty much. Locked down though. They say ASUS' new phone will come with full source code.Apr 03 16:16
iwmwniceApr 03 16:16
schestowitzjose: I can't recall such a quoteApr 03 16:16
schestowitzWHo said it?Apr 03 16:16
josedarnApr 03 16:16
schestowitzOne of the lawyers?Apr 03 16:16
schestowitzMicrosoft has lots of themApr 03 16:16
josean exec i thinkApr 03 16:16
schestowitzMicrosoft just buys companiesApr 03 16:16
iwmwmay be it's the first phone that i will buy in 4-5 yearsApr 03 16:16
schestowitzAnd then hires lawyersApr 03 16:16
schestowitzAnd peripheral agencies to shill, e.g. Edelman, LawMedia, W-E...Apr 03 16:17
schestowitziwmw: see http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/04...Apr 03 16:17
iwmwis skype opensourced?Apr 03 16:18
PetoKrausgood jokeApr 03 16:19
joseschestowitz, i think this http://meandubuntu.wordpress.co... is ushimitsudoki's websites and i saw it there.. let me checkApr 03 16:20
schestowitzjose: yes, it isApr 03 16:20
*iwmw is obviously not buying a phone based on skypeApr 03 16:20
iwmweven though it's linuxApr 03 16:20
schestowitzI want to go through it carefully at some stage. It has good picksApr 03 16:20
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_Hicham_Hi folksApr 03 16:22
schestowitzHiApr 03 16:22
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schestowitzConficker Conflunks < http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/... >Apr 03 16:24
schestowitzI.B.M. Reportedly Will Buy Rival Sun for $7 Billion < http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/03/techno... > PS: Ashlee quit The Register, which sinksApr 03 16:27
schestowitzApril Fool's for OLPC: http://www.olpcnews.com/countries/us...Apr 03 16:30
schestowitzThe very latest on TomTom (it gets boringly repetitive): http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?st...Apr 03 16:31
schestowitzBoycottNovell traffic now exceeds 6.5GB/per day, on average. We outgrew Groklaw.Apr 03 16:36
PetoKrausright guysApr 03 16:36
PetoKrauswho knows how to start your own companyApr 03 16:36
PetoKrausin UKApr 03 16:37
schestowitzTo /start/?Apr 03 16:37
PetoKrausyeahApr 03 16:37
PetoKrausi meanApr 03 16:37
schestowitzNot a good time to start oneApr 03 16:37
schestowitzNo VCApr 03 16:37
PetoKrauswhat sort of legalese there isApr 03 16:37
schestowitzNo moneyflowApr 03 16:37
PetoKrausVC?Apr 03 16:37
schestowitzVenture CapitalApr 03 16:37
schestowitzYou couldn't get investments to start it upApr 03 16:37
PetoKrausdon't worry, we're targeting good marketApr 03 16:37
schestowitzOr a loan from the bank evenApr 03 16:37
PetoKrauswe don't need muchApr 03 16:37
PetoKrausit's supposed to be support teamApr 03 16:37
schestowitzAnd even if you set up a business, few people spendApr 03 16:37
schestowitzMedicine is a strong areaApr 03 16:38
PetoKrausi mean something i do at work nowApr 03 16:38
schestowitzChemisty tooApr 03 16:38
PetoKrausbut just personal, between me and my workmateApr 03 16:38
schestowitzbecause these are scarcely affected by a depression. People's health can't be curtailed.Apr 03 16:38
PetoKrausthe idea is to provide help to people in the eveningsApr 03 16:38
PetoKraustarget studentsApr 03 16:38
PetoKrauslow pricesApr 03 16:38
schestowitzThat's possibleApr 03 16:38
PetoKrausyou get the thinkingApr 03 16:38
schestowitzMicrosoft likes it when people do it for freeApr 03 16:38
schestowitzSuppoting Windows free of chargeApr 03 16:39
schestowitzOr even for payApr 03 16:39
PetoKrauswell i am not microsoftApr 03 16:39
schestowitzIt's a Big ScamApr 03 16:39
PetoKraussoApr 03 16:39
PetoKrausdo you know what's needed to set up something like this?Apr 03 16:39
schestowitzThe scam is mentioned here about 1 hours into the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch...Apr 03 16:39
schestowitzPetoKraus: there's a standard procedureApr 03 16:39
PetoKrausyeahApr 03 16:40
schestowitzyou can't find something on GoogleApr 03 16:40
PetoKrausthat's what i'm looking forApr 03 16:40
PetoKrauswell, i don't know what to look forApr 03 16:40
schestowitzDepends on the coutnry, so try google.co.ukApr 03 16:40
_Hicham_schestowitz : we need IPApr 03 16:40
_Hicham_people have the right to gain some money from what they doApr 03 16:40
schestowitzPetoKraus: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...Apr 03 16:41
_Hicham_but IP shouldn't last more than 5 yearsApr 03 16:41
schestowitzFirst few results seem appropriateApr 03 16:41
schestowitzIP.. moving to IPv6 soon :-)Apr 03 16:41
schestowitzThe other IP is fictionaryApr 03 16:41
schestowitzfictitious I meanApr 03 16:41
schestowitzBundle for separate laws.Apr 03 16:42
schestowitz"Bureau of Labor Statistics this morning, which reported that companies in the United States chopped 663,000 jobs from their payrolls in March, boosting the unemployment rate to 8.5 per cent." http://www.channelregister.co.uk/20...Apr 03 16:42
schestowitzIt's a lieApr 03 16:42
schestowitzThe real unemployment would be around 14% (at least)Apr 03 16:42
_Hicham_Europe predicts than unemployment rate will hit 20%Apr 03 16:43
schestowitzThey count it differently for optimism. People who give up or whose time looking'expires' don't get counted. There are also unknown people who are left out from such surveysApr 03 16:43
schestowitzuk's real unemployment rate is a mysteryApr 03 16:43
schestowitzLike national debtApr 03 16:43
schestowitzPeople are told liesApr 03 16:43
schestowitzYesterday at the gym this guy thought it would be *gap* over 100bn next yearApr 03 16:44
schestowitzTotal unadulterated BS. It's more like 2tr alreadyApr 03 16:44
schestowitzReal unemployment rate at three million, Tories claim  < http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news... >Apr 03 16:44
_Hicham_that is liberal economyApr 03 16:45
schestowitzLast Updated: 6:43PM BST 18 Sep 2008 (much worse now)Apr 03 16:45
_Hicham_u have to deal with thatApr 03 16:45
_Hicham_u can't even do some protectionism nowApr 03 16:45
_Hicham_coz it is oldApr 03 16:45
_Hicham_so u can't face ChinaApr 03 16:45
schestowitz"Chris Grayling, the party's work and spokesman secretary, said that around 12.4 per cent of the workforce - nearly five million people - were "under-employed" because they could find only part-time work or were stuck on benefits."Apr 03 16:45
schestowitzThat was before the collapse of Wall Street and UK banksApr 03 16:45
schestowitzSept 30 (ish)Apr 03 16:46
_Hicham_China's products will kill Europe/US economyApr 03 16:46
_Hicham_and there is nothing to do about itApr 03 16:46
schestowitz"Will"?Apr 03 16:46
schestowitzThe US has been relying on Chinese merchanise for agesApr 03 16:46
schestowitzSame here in the UKApr 03 16:46
schestowitzWho do you think made the monitors that I use ATM? or the keyboard?Apr 03 16:47
_Hicham_I am talking about other productsApr 03 16:47
_Hicham_not tech productsApr 03 16:47
schestowitzThe big mistakes is to characterise some jobs as "knowledge workers" (ugly term)Apr 03 16:47
schestowitzWhich means "We sit there pushing paper in WTC while kids in Vietnam make Nike shoes"Apr 03 16:48
_Hicham_yesApr 03 16:48
_Hicham_and there is nothing to do about itApr 03 16:48
_Hicham_no one can face ChinaApr 03 16:48
schestowitzhttp://regmedia.co.uk/2008/11/...Apr 03 16:48
schestowitzChina defeated pricingApr 03 16:49
schestowitzLike price-fixing overApr 03 16:49
_Hicham_China have more than 40 millions of prisonersApr 03 16:49
schestowitzThey lower wages and working conditions (hours)Apr 03 16:49
_Hicham_all of them are workersApr 03 16:49
schestowitzSo you match that cost or perishApr 03 16:49
schestowitzChina does to 'us' what FOSS does to Microsoft/WindowsApr 03 16:49
_Hicham_they don't pay them sometimes (prisoners)Apr 03 16:49
_Hicham_so FOSS is communism?Apr 03 16:50
schestowitzNo.Apr 03 16:50
schestowitzCommunism is something elseApr 03 16:50
schestowitzOne form of socialismApr 03 16:50
schestowitzGlobalisation could now change things radicallyApr 03 16:50
schestowitzIt's worse than the name suggests --GlobalisationApr 03 16:51
schestowitzThink of "rendition" or "enhanced interrogation"Apr 03 16:51
schestowitzGlobalisation can be more like slaveryApr 03 16:51
_Hicham_it is already a slaveryApr 03 16:51
_Hicham_we are slaves to the USApr 03 16:51
schestowitzIn most places -- yesApr 03 16:51
schestowitzyes to the formerApr 03 16:52
_Hicham_we can't get compiled without the US headersApr 03 16:52
schestowitzThe anomaly was bound to endApr 03 16:52
schestowitzEconomical imbalanceApr 03 16:52
schestowitzDisparity in working conditionsApr 03 16:52
_Hicham_gcc - c shestowitz.c -I ./USApr 03 16:53
_Hicham_gcc shestowitz.o -L ./USApr 03 16:53
_Hicham_no one can escape the USApr 03 16:53
_Hicham_but if it collapses, that would be another problemApr 03 16:54
_Hicham_the transition will be very hardApr 03 16:54
schestowitzHere in the UK MPs are not concerned about availability of drug to students: http://www.theregister.co.uk/...Apr 03 16:54
_Hicham_do u do drugs Roy?Apr 03 16:55
schestowitzThe funny thing is that people are taught not to drink or smoke but at the same the same time assumed that they'll do it anyway... not the same with copyright infingement.Apr 03 16:55
schestowitzNo, never done drugsApr 03 16:55
schestowitzJust the 'alcohol' drug.Apr 03 16:56
schestowitzAlcohol too is a drugApr 03 16:56
_Hicham_ah, so u drink?Apr 03 16:56
schestowitzSo the question should be whether one did /illegal/ drugs. That too depends on location.Apr 03 16:56
_Hicham_Alcohol is a drugApr 03 16:56
_Hicham_Cigarettes are drugApr 03 16:56
schestowitzcokeApr 03 16:56
schestowitzBut all of these are legalApr 03 16:57
schestowitzAnd lethalApr 03 16:57
_Hicham_everything that u can get addicted to is a drugApr 03 16:57
schestowitzCoke a little lessApr 03 16:57
schestowitzMore addictive than harmfulApr 03 16:57
_Hicham_hashish is legal in NetherlandsApr 03 16:57
schestowitz_Hicham_: yes, but some addictives have side effects that are harmfulApr 03 16:57
schestowitzSome do notApr 03 16:57
_Hicham_like for instance?Apr 03 16:57
_Hicham_give me a drug that it is not harmful?Apr 03 16:58
schestowitzMany habitsApr 03 16:58
schestowitzCollecting stamps can be addictiveApr 03 16:58
schestowitzIt's a spychological dependencyApr 03 16:58
_Hicham_it is not a drugApr 03 16:58
_Hicham_it is an addictionApr 03 16:58
schestowitzIt's an addictive habitApr 03 16:58
schestowitzNot a cdrugApr 03 16:58
schestowitzBut it can stimulate the brain in certain waysApr 03 16:58
_Hicham_we can add to this ur addiction to MSApr 03 16:58
schestowitzTo induce drugs/hormones/whateverApr 03 16:58
_Hicham_it is an addictionApr 03 16:58
_Hicham_ur r addicted to MSApr 03 16:59
schestowitzJust like women have periodsApr 03 16:59
schestowitzOr exercise affects the mindApr 03 16:59
schestowitzBecause of chemical the body releasesApr 03 16:59
schestowitz*calsApr 03 16:59
schestowitz_Hicham_: maybe dependency or lockinApr 03 16:59
schestowitzLess to do with addiction in MS' caseApr 03 16:59
schestowitzYou could say that love is a similar trait to addictionApr 03 17:00
schestowitzIn the same that in both cases you have the element of yearningApr 03 17:00
_Hicham_u should call oiaohm to optimize the dependencyApr 03 17:00
schestowitzAnd physical/mental impulses.Apr 03 17:00
schestowitz_Hicham_: you got a man.crush() on oiaohm?Apr 03 17:00
_Hicham_I like to tease u bothApr 03 17:01
_Hicham_:DApr 03 17:01
schestowitz\OKApr 03 17:01
schestowitzFriendlinessApr 03 17:01
schestowitzNothing wrong with thatApr 03 17:01
_Hicham_do u have kids?Apr 03 17:01
iwmwschestowitz: all addictives have harmful effectsApr 03 17:01
schestowitzChina may lead the way (a little scary): http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02... (China Vies to Be World's Leader in Electric Cars)Apr 03 17:02
schestowitz_Hicham_: Not yetApr 03 17:02
_Hicham_India made a $2000 carApr 03 17:02
iwmwhow does it look?Apr 03 17:02
schestowitzNow would also be a bad time to start families. One friend of mine abstains from having kids with his partner because of the economy.Apr 03 17:03
schestowitzI don't think she and him have enough job security to i'nvest' in something for the next two decadesApr 03 17:03
schestowitz_Hicham_: good for IndiaApr 03 17:03
iwmwis it a girl that he doesn't want to have a kids with?Apr 03 17:04
schestowitziwmw: no idea what it looks likeApr 03 17:04
schestowitzChina will probably copy designs from the westApr 03 17:04
schestowitziwmw: what does that mean?Apr 03 17:04
_Hicham_http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/23/ta...Apr 03 17:04


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