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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 16th, 2009 – Part 3

Posted in IRC Logs at 3:16 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


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schestowitz Familiar VIsta7, but this one works: http://www.clububuntu.com/2009/04/10-… Apr 16 18:17
schestowitz Recession? What recession? System76: Ubuntu PC Maker’s Revenue Up 61 Percent < http://www.workswithu.com/2009/04/15/… > Apr 16 18:19
balzac I’ve been recommending people buy the Dell mini with Ubuntu preinstalled Apr 16 18:20
schestowitz richard dale (the mono hooks guy): http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3936 Apr 16 18:20
balzac People who are technically proficient, to them I recommend the asus eee Apr 16 18:21
schestowitz “Running KDE4 with KWin/Plasma compositing effects on the HP 2133 mini-note” Apr 16 18:21
balzac Some teenage girl on the subway asked me all about my computer Apr 16 18:21
balzac I recommended the dell mini with ubuntu for her Apr 16 18:21
schestowitz Did you tip her a fiver? Apr 16 18:21
balzac *teenage* Apr 16 18:21
schestowitz 19? Apr 16 18:21
balzac *subway* Apr 16 18:21
schestowitz I kid Apr 16 18:22
balzac I got some dirty looks though, from some jealous dudes Apr 16 18:22
DaemonFC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbJSuduTrPs Apr 16 18:22
DaemonFC lol Apr 16 18:22
balzac But I wasn’t going to deny her my expertise just because she was some hot jail-bait Apr 16 18:22
balzac meanwhile, I’m banned by the IRC Mall Cops in #ubuntu-ops Apr 16 18:22
schestowitz DaemonFC: posted here earlier Apr 16 18:23
schestowitz “I’m poor, but I’m not retarded” Apr 16 18:23
schestowitz He should have gotten Linux Apr 16 18:23
DaemonFC yeah Apr 16 18:23
amarsh04 is Richard Dale from .au schestowitz? Apr 16 18:25
balzac yep, the hot girls can’t get enough of my ubuntu Apr 16 18:28
balzac hot bartender – I hooked her up, ubuntu on her eee Apr 16 18:28
balzac random teen on subway – her too Apr 16 18:29
DaemonFC meh, if it comes to OS X or Windows, they’re both about the same to me Apr 16 18:29
DaemonFC just that I don’t have to buy a preassembled PC for 500% markup to get Windows :P Apr 16 18:29
schestowitz atang is ccrazzzy.. http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/35788 Apr 16 18:30
schestowitz amarsh04: might be Apr 16 18:30
amarsh04 if he is, he’d used to be active in Fidonet and running turbo pascal Apr 16 18:31
schestowitz I think he utahian[sic] Apr 16 18:35
schestowitz Utahn? Apr 16 18:35
schestowitz Not that it matters Apr 16 18:35
amarsh04 from Utah (-: Apr 16 18:35
Balrog DaemonFC: 500% markup is what MS wants you to believe :P Apr 16 18:35
schestowitz I’m just watching closely to see if Novell employee (paid by Microsoft) sneak Mono into KDE. Apr 16 18:36
schestowitz DaemonFC: Ext3 ‘data=guarded’ mode coming for Linux kernel 2.6.30? < http://rajeeshknambiar.wordpress.com/20… > Apr 16 18:38
schestowitz “In the light of recent “Ext3 fsync” problem related discussions happened in the Linux Kernel mailing list involving many experts in the field, there has been quite a few improvements.” Apr 16 18:38
Balrog Utah (-: Apr 16 18:40
Balrog 13:51 < Balrog> DaemonFC: 500% markup is what MS wants you to believe :P Apr 16 18:40
Balrog 13:51 <@schestowitz> I’m just watching closely to see if Novell employee (paid by Microsoft) sneak Mono into KDE. Apr 16 18:40
Balrog 13:53 <@schestowitz> DaemonFC: Ext3 ‘data=guarded’ mode coming for Linux kernel 2.6.30? < http://rajeeshknambiar.wordpress.com/200… > Apr 16 18:40
Balrog hrm sorry about that Apr 16 18:41
schestowitz Why do Linux games cost what they cost? < http://blog.linuxgamepublishing.com/2009/04/11… > Apr 16 18:42
schestowitz balzac once flooded by accident Apr 16 18:42
Balrog I see. Apr 16 18:44
schestowitz bergy on ballnux: http://beranger.org/v3/wordpr… Apr 16 18:51
schestowitz CMus Review – A Great ncurses Music Player < http://tuxarena.blogspot.com/2009/04/c… > GUI, who needs it? It’s got almost everything. Apr 16 18:53
schestowitz “The New York Times recently reported that Canonical’s annual revenue was about $30 million.” That’s new to me. Apr 16 18:56
Balrog …? Apr 16 18:56
balzac good news Apr 16 18:57
Balrog the value, or NYT reporting it Apr 16 18:59
Balrog ? Apr 16 18:59
schestowitz Hmmm… :-( http://www.jocuri-gratis.us/irc-boycott… Apr 16 19:01
schestowitz Balrog: as I understand it, they still operate at a loss Apr 16 19:02
schestowitz Try to estimate expenses Apr 16 19:02
schestowitz About 200 employees, free CDs, office space.. Apr 16 19:02
balzac I thought they finally made a profit Apr 16 19:02
schestowitz this guy like to BN, but it’s in Spanish: http://www.fayerwayer.com/2009/04/microso… Apr 16 19:03
schestowitz Seems like some popular Spanish-speaking site Apr 16 19:04
Balrog I see. Though that hopefully will change :) Apr 16 19:04
balzac why do “linux” games cost what they cost? Apr 16 19:04
balzac because they’re non-free? Apr 16 19:05
schestowitz With 100,000+ French policemen on Ubuntu now, Canonical will have some more business in their hands Apr 16 19:05
DaemonFC Balrog: I’m sure I can build a PC to the same or better specs than the same Mac for several times less Apr 16 19:05
schestowitz balzac: Yes, but read the post Apr 16 19:05
DaemonFC even if I don’t look for the rock bottom deal on everything Apr 16 19:05
schestowitz It’s a comparison there Apr 16 19:05
schestowitz it’s also in http://blogografia.com/microsoft-respon… Apr 16 19:06
schestowitz If only the article was in English we could reference their analysis Apr 16 19:07
Balrog DaemonFC: then you’re on your own when it comes to support Apr 16 19:08
Balrog also it may not be very much related, but I’ve seen many broken HP systems lately Apr 16 19:09
Balrog and not only HP, but other cheap windows-based systems Apr 16 19:09
Balrog and can you build a laptop? Apr 16 19:09
DaemonFC So the difference in Support is? Apr 16 19:10
DaemonFC Name one PC maker that stands behind what they sell Apr 16 19:10
Balrog build yourself and you’re on your own Apr 16 19:10
Balrog not only support but quality as well, I meant Apr 16 19:11
Balrog non-geeks don’t want to fix their machines Apr 16 19:11
schestowitz You could build a laptop Apr 16 19:12
schestowitz Not a very well integrated one :-) Apr 16 19:12
Balrog true. Apr 16 19:12
schestowitz Factory components can’t be ordered off the shelf, either Apr 16 19:12
schestowitz I once fixed my Compaq  laptop Apr 16 19:13
schestowitz Went to RC electronics Apr 16 19:13
schestowitz Compaq wanted to change the whole monitor Apr 16 19:13
schestowitz $500 Apr 16 19:13
schestowitz I just bought some component and fixed the source of the issue Apr 16 19:13
Balrog of course. Apr 16 19:14
schestowitz it reminded me of Windows Apr 16 19:14
schestowitz What to do when it breaks? Apr 16 19:14
schestowitz Restart. Apr 16 19:14
schestowitz If Windows misbehaves or gets infected, what to do..? Apr 16 19:14
Balrog erase it + start over Apr 16 19:15
Balrog that’s what to do Apr 16 19:15
schestowitz Install Windiws. Same with the car industry and garages Apr 16 19:15
schestowitz You always need ‘replacement’ Apr 16 19:15
Balrog very time consuming and inconvenient Apr 16 19:15
schestowitz Esp. in Windows Apr 16 19:16
schestowitz Unless you ghost it Apr 16 19:16
schestowitz *Ghust{TM} it Apr 16 19:16
schestowitz They don’t like misuse of their name Apr 16 19:16
Balrog imaging doesn’t preserve new data Apr 16 19:16
schestowitz You can set that aside Apr 16 19:16
Balrog heh … their software has fallen behind lately Apr 16 19:16
schestowitz Like put it on external Apr 16 19:16
Balrog true… Apr 16 19:16
Balrog schestowitz: you’re ever stuck using windows? Apr 16 19:17
schestowitz Nope. Apr 16 19:17
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Balrog that’s good … many people are :( Apr 16 19:17
schestowitz Ryan Fester all the way from Indiana :-) Apr 16 19:17
schestowitz Balrog: I needed to use proprietary s/w though Apr 16 19:18
Balrog you mean matlab or other stuff? Apr 16 19:18
Balrog you said matlab is not that bad Apr 16 19:18
SteveBallmer` Fester? Apr 16 19:18
*DaemonFC has quit (Nick collision from services.) Apr 16 19:19
*SteveBallmer` is now known as DeamonFC Apr 16 19:19
schestowitz I was joking, st Apr 16 19:19
schestowitz Uncle Fester Apr 16 19:19
schestowitz http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/… Apr 16 19:20
schestowitz “On the contrary, Mark, we’d have said describing Steve as looking like Uncle Fester was true, and quite possibly in the public interest. But you decide – take a look at Steve Ballmer’s homepage and see what you think. “ Apr 16 19:20
schestowitz http://www.addamsfamily.com/adda… Apr 16 19:21
schestowitz Balrog: I have skype installed cause of friends, too Apr 16 19:21
Balrog I see. I dislike Skype, but friends use it :( Apr 16 19:24
Balrog it uses an annoying form of executable encryption Apr 16 19:24
trmanco Ekiga is cool Apr 16 19:24
Balrog (and on the iphone, seems to be doing that specifically to get around Apple’s API restrictions) Apr 16 19:25
Balrog Skype for iphone is using private API Apr 16 19:25
Balrog ekiga is a SIP client? Apr 16 19:26
trmanco yeah, it uses that protocol Apr 16 19:32
Balrog ok. Apr 16 19:34
schestowitz Where does Skype stand on SIP? Apr 16 19:36
schestowitz I ask because I’m not too familiar Apr 16 19:36
schestowitz That is to say, for voice alone, is there another access route to Skype users? Apr 16 19:36
schestowitz I abstained Skype for like 3 years (at least) despite requests from peers Apr 16 19:37
Balrog there may be Skype gateways Apr 16 19:37
Balrog can’t you run Skype in a VM? Apr 16 19:37
schestowitz What would be the point? Apr 16 19:38
Balrog if you don’t trust their code, that would help Apr 16 19:39
Balrog of course, you’d still want to treat skype convos as insecure Apr 16 19:39
Balrog just like email Apr 16 19:39
schestowitz The news speaks about rise in SPAM due to MSConficker Apr 16 19:48
schestowitz And my box is getting filled with lots of pesky spam I never get much of anymore Apr 16 19:48
schestowitz could be related. It’s a matter of statistics really. Apr 16 19:48
schestowitz Balrog: in China only (confessed Skype) they let the government read Skype IM Apr 16 19:49
schestowitz It’s more simple to scan/parse too Apr 16 19:49
Balrog yes I know. Apr 16 19:49
schestowitz “Is there a list anywhere of ex-MS employees, and/or partners, that now have government positions (in governments around the world, not just USA? “ Apr 16 19:49
Balrog email is totally insecure. I wouldn’t treat skype any better Apr 16 19:49
Balrog (well, email without encryption) Apr 16 19:50
schestowitz I think we must create such a list, but I lack the time at the moment. Later this year it’s very doable. Wiki is suitable for such things because they change over time. Apr 16 19:50
Balrog schestowitz: videos are up, can I pm URL’s? Apr 16 19:51
schestowitz Balrog: I encrypt my important mail Apr 16 19:51
schestowitz Videos? Apr 16 19:51
schestowitz Oh Apr 16 19:51
Balrog Stallman Apr 16 19:51
schestowitz RMS? Apr 16 19:51
schestowitz Yes Apr 16 19:51
schestowitz Yes, I can embed in BN for streaming Apr 16 19:51
schestowitz And spread in microblogging Apr 16 19:52
Balrog ok. Apr 16 19:53
schestowitz Sent to FSF Apr 16 19:54
schestowitz and others Apr 16 19:54
schestowitz is it cmu or temple? Apr 16 19:56
schestowitz venue Apr 16 19:56
schestowitz schmidt will speak at cmu graduation ceremony soon btw Apr 16 19:56
schestowitz he’s a former noveller, not just google ceo Apr 16 19:56
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/… Apr 16 20:02
schestowitz I just typed Pittsburgh Apr 16 20:02
schestowitz @Mark_Antony: I hear there are penguins in Antarctica :-) Apr 16 20:03
schestowitz Reply to someone pulling my leg about it…. never mind. Apr 16 20:03
Algyz hopefully in antarctica they are not using windows :) Apr 16 20:03
schestowitz Their parents might Apr 16 20:03
schestowitz Like Minus’ Apr 16 20:03
schestowitz *Linus’ Apr 16 20:04
Balrog schestowitz: Philadelphia Apr 16 20:04
Balrog fix it now Apr 16 20:04
schestowitz Oh Apr 16 20:04
schestowitz Fixed Apr 16 20:05
MinceR lol @ “Minus” Apr 16 20:05
schestowitz Yeah, I know Apr 16 20:05
Balrog not fixed in the title Apr 16 20:05
schestowitz Not even a typo related to tap disatcne Apr 16 20:05
schestowitz Two keys away in QWERTY Apr 16 20:05
Balrog ?? Apr 16 20:05
schestowitz Maybe cache Apr 16 20:06
Balrog schestowitz: doesn’t appear fixed to me Apr 16 20:06
Balrog yes. Can you clear that if you have wordpress cache running? Apr 16 20:06
Balrog ok, fixed Apr 16 20:07
Balrog thanks Apr 16 20:07
schestowitz No problem Apr 16 20:08
schestowitz Not intentional either Apr 16 20:09
schestowitz the PAs confuse me Apr 16 20:09
schestowitz Too many of them Apr 16 20:09
Balrog hopefully my server won’t get killed :P Apr 16 20:10
Balrog yes, lol Apr 16 20:10
schestowitz Not many people download Oggs. Apr 16 20:11
Balrog I know :/ Apr 16 20:12
Balrog though FF 3.1 / FF 3.5 will change that Apr 16 20:12
schestowitz Yes, I will then drop the Flash versions Apr 16 20:12
schestowitz Almost 70% of BN readers use FF Apr 16 20:12
schestowitz Mostly 3.0.x Apr 16 20:12
Balrog I see. Apr 16 20:12
schestowitz Remember this? http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/11/co… Apr 16 20:16
Balrog I just hope FF does ogg right. Apr 16 20:18
Balrog let me test it. Apr 16 20:18
schestowitz Microsoft’s results are out at the end of the month. They’ll cook the books but admit that $4 Windows XP kills em. Apr 16 20:18
Balrog heh yeah they will Apr 16 20:18
schestowitz They must admit the issue Apr 16 20:19
schestowitz Investors would sue otherwise Apr 16 20:19
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schestowitz They already may sue anyway. Some of them mailed me. Apr 16 20:19
Balrog you mean Linux people may sue? or MS? Apr 16 20:19
schestowitz They found BN eye opening because of the articles it cites Apr 16 20:19
schestowitz Sue MS. Apr 16 20:19
Balrog I see. Apr 16 20:19
Balrog who sue MS? Apr 16 20:19
schestowitz If it lies to investors Apr 16 20:19
schestowitz Same with Dell Apr 16 20:19
Balrog ahh that. Apr 16 20:19
schestowitz When it accepted $1bn/annum bribes from Intel Apr 16 20:20
Balrog I see…. Apr 16 20:20
schestowitz I don’t think they sued Apr 16 20:20
schestowitz They live in a land where justice is optional Apr 16 20:20
*amd-linux has quit (Client Quit) Apr 16 20:21
Balrog schestowitz: this video is encoded with the experimental theora encoder Apr 16 20:21
schestowitz That’s fine Apr 16 20:21
Balrog their thoughts will betray them Apr 16 20:21
Balrog it may not play in old versions of VLC Apr 16 20:21
schestowitz RMS got the German authorities worried yesterday. He called for abolishment of EPO. Apr 16 20:22
schestowitz Signs of tender corruption? Government won’t say which companies competed: http://www.itwire.com/content/… Apr 16 20:23
Balrog yeah … explain Apr 16 20:23
schestowitz Balrog: see the video Apr 16 20:23
Balrog I am looking at it Apr 16 20:24
Balrog seems like it was encoded with the ‘stable’ theora codec … quality could be better Apr 16 20:24
amarsh04 schmidt was at sun before novell Apr 16 20:24
Balrog compare the 400kbps stream that I posted Apr 16 20:24
schestowitz amarsh04: yes, I know… Java Apr 16 20:28
schestowitz And now Novell is screwing with Java Apr 16 20:28
Balrog schestowitz: URL? Apr 16 20:28
Balrog for novell / java Apr 16 20:29
amarsh04 first page of the itwire article is at http://www.itwire.com/conten… – I prefer to get the first page of a story Apr 16 20:29
schestowitz amarsh04: accident Apr 16 20:29
amarsh04 no problem, just a personal preference schetowitz Apr 16 20:33
amarsh04 schestowitz rather Apr 16 20:34
schestowitz Aye :-) Apr 16 20:34
schestowitz I’ve noticed that BoycottNovell’s monthly traffic now exceeds 200GB Apr 16 20:36
Balrog wow. how do you pay for hosting? Do you have one of those ‘unlimited bandwidth’ accounts? Apr 16 20:36
Balrog looks like my server is getting some hits Apr 16 20:36
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schestowitz Balrog: Shane pays using the ads Apr 16 20:42
schestowitz In 2 days we’ll publish post #6000 Apr 16 20:43
Balrog I know. But I block nearly all ads, and definitely flash ads Apr 16 20:43
schestowitz Our limit is 500GB/month Apr 16 20:44
schestowitz It used to be a lot lower in 2007 Apr 16 20:44
Balrog there are these hosting companies that promise “unlimited space” and “unlimited transfer”. Is this true? Apr 16 20:45
schestowitz We have good endurance shelf life in the sense that old articles still get viewed a lot Apr 16 20:45
schestowitz Which is why I proofread super-carefully, which I wasn’t doing back in the days (2006) Apr 16 20:46
schestowitz Balrog: it’s bull Apr 16 20:46
schestowitz We got told off for too much CPU Apr 16 20:46
schestowitz There are hidden limits Apr 16 20:46
Balrog ahh. Apr 16 20:46
schestowitz Like CPU limits Apr 16 20:46
schestowitz Others have the same issue Apr 16 20:46
Balrog yes there are cpu limits :/ Apr 16 20:47
schestowitz Bob Sutor (IBM VP) and Rick Lerbaum/DeviceGuru for example Apr 16 20:47
schestowitz From them I actually heard it first hand Apr 16 20:47
schestowitz It’s like illness when you publish something important and people can’t listen Apr 16 20:47
schestowitz Like coming to deliver a speech  an hour too late or something Apr 16 20:47
schestowitz And if the host’s suspension is to blame, then it’s avoidable and obnoxious Apr 16 20:48
schestowitz In schestowitz.com I’ve not written anything new in years Apr 16 20:48
schestowitz it still does about 10k pages/day Apr 16 20:49
schestowitz BN is around 30k (awstats count) Apr 16 20:49
schestowitz It changes one’s perception of publishing in journals, presenting at conferences, or submitting news to editors (slow, cumbersome) Apr 16 20:50
schestowitz Another reason it’s addictive: shelf life Apr 16 20:51
schestowitz With news/journals, they cease to be read quickly (1-2 days for newspaper, one week for magazines, at most months//years for scientific journals). With Web sites it’s nothing like that; people use search facilities and judge by relevance, not age. Apr 16 20:52
schestowitz The Internet is a wonderful thing. What’s more ‘wonderful’ is people who adamantly refuse to move to it (WSJ, scientists) and therefore get left behind, leaving all the readership to others.  It’s funny to see the RIAA/MPAA having the same crisis and not knowing how to handle it; they abuse artists Apr 16 20:54
Balrog wi3 Apr 16 20:58
Balrog sorry Apr 16 20:58
schestowitz the FSF was happy about the RMS videos. I told them it was located in Philadelphia, weeks ago. Apr 16 20:58
Balrog using irssi ;) Apr 16 20:58
Balrog …weeks ago? Apr 16 20:59
schestowitz Maybe they’ll graft it to their server Apr 16 20:59
schestowitz A month? Apr 16 20:59
schestowitz Anyway, their webmaster knows about it now Apr 16 20:59
DeamonFC heh, I still have yet to take Windows 2003 down Apr 16 20:59
Balrog you mean when I sent you the preliminary copy? Apr 16 20:59
DeamonFC if you cough, Windows Vista or 7 will blue screen Apr 16 20:59
schestowitz Balrog: yes Apr 16 21:01
Balrog ok Apr 16 21:01
schestowitz DeamonFC: will post that IE8 link aroudn Apr 16 21:02
schestowitz BTW, you misspell daemon on purpose? Apr 16 21:02
DeamonFC schestowitz: That’s just asinine, I even read them touting it as a feature of Windows Vista Apr 16 21:02
DeamonFC like it would take them any effort at all to give XP users Apr 16 21:02
schestowitz Damon Football Club Apr 16 21:03
DeamonFC schestowitz: They had a Q&A about why they didn’t backport more security features to XP and their reason was it would take massive architectural changes Apr 16 21:04
DeamonFC but here we have something so simple that every other browser has it Apr 16 21:04
schestowitz IE still loses share Apr 16 21:06
schestowitz They can’t reverse the trend for Windows, either. Apr 16 21:06
schestowitz They just dump it., Apr 16 21:06
schestowitz Microsoft is on a price war it can’t sustain. It tries to starve Linux vendors before it goes bankrupt. Apr 16 21:06
DeamonFC I think Opera 10 is my favorite Windows browser Apr 16 21:08
DeamonFC starting to grow on me for Linux now that they’ve made that version attempt to integrate better with the system Apr 16 21:08
schestowitz I tried it and it was good. But it’s not FOSS, so I wait until they change the licence. Apr 16 21:12
schestowitz They hurt themselves Apr 16 21:12
DeamonFC schestowitz: If they went open source they’d go under Apr 16 21:12
schestowitz If they were FOSS before (no download free anyway), Linux would have bundled Opera AGES ago Apr 16 21:13
DeamonFC because nobody would have any reason to pay them to have Opera Mobile Apr 16 21:13
schestowitz Opera was good in 2003 Apr 16 21:13
schestowitz But can’t be bundled due to licence Apr 16 21:13
schestowitz Then came Firefox 0.9 Apr 16 21:13
DeamonFC well, Firefox is mainly subsidized by cash infusions from Google Apr 16 21:13
DeamonFC and they themselves have a license Apr 16 21:14
DeamonFC unless you compile an unbranded version, you are bound by that Apr 16 21:14
schestowitz Is MPL formally OSI approved? Apr 16 21:19
DeamonFC probably, but then again, so is the MSPL ;) Apr 16 21:33
woofy someone from this channel Apr 16 21:33
woofy should type /join ##jswolfbot Apr 16 21:34
woofy and !join Apr 16 21:34
woofy in there Apr 16 21:34
DeamonFC schestowitz: Firefox itself is not just MPL Apr 16 21:34
DeamonFC you have to agree to the Firefox EULA Apr 16 21:34
DeamonFC schestowitz: http://www.dell.com/content/products… Apr 16 21:36
woofy what does it restrict you to, DeamonFC? Apr 16 21:36
DeamonFC the one with XP is only $20 more, but it has twice the space on the SSD Apr 16 21:36
DeamonFC so you could just buy the XP one and put Linux on it and you still got a better dead Apr 16 21:36
DeamonFC *deal Apr 16 21:36
DeamonFC I suppose MS is paying them to do tha Apr 16 21:36
DeamonFC so it encourages more XP sales and they can point to the numbers Apr 16 21:37
DeamonFC even if people ultimately use Linux Apr 16 21:37
woofy DeamonFC, m$ doesn’t encourage Apr 16 21:37
woofy it makes ultimates Apr 16 21:38
woofy ultimatums Apr 16 21:38
schestowitz Hey Apr 16 21:39
schestowitz DeamonFC: same story with OLPC Apr 16 21:40
schestowitz It’s supposed to make stories for them Apr 16 21:40
schestowitz BUT ALSO Apr 16 21:40
schestowitz They try to block ISV Support Apr 16 21:40
schestowitz Keeping Linux “at bay” Apr 16 21:40
DeamonFC I notice the ones with Windows tend to be the same price or not a lot more Apr 16 21:40
DeamonFC and usually double the RAM or storage or something Apr 16 21:40
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/14/no-c… Apr 16 21:40
schestowitz According to many respectable sources, Microsoft dried up almost all its savings Apr 16 21:44
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woofy nice to hear Apr 16 21:50
*woofy will be glad to see win7 failure Apr 16 21:50
woofy because people will start to understand that drm is a failure Apr 16 21:51
woofy even for hardware Apr 16 21:51
woofy too bad it’s drm ready Apr 16 21:51
silentivm I guess Win7 will be the first version of Windows which I will not use at all. Apr 16 21:53
silentivm (I briefly tried Vista) Apr 16 21:53
DeamonFC I always at least wait for the first service pack Apr 16 21:57
DeamonFC that way it isn’t a total disaster Apr 16 21:57
DeamonFC in vista’s case though, I don’t think even the second SP will save it Apr 16 21:58
silentivm yep, but I don’t really care Apr 16 21:58
DeamonFC well, they rush the stuff out, it has thousands of bugs, then by the time they have the kinks worked out they retire it and start again Apr 16 21:59
DeamonFC but if you at least wait for SP1, all the really heinous stuff is usually fixe Apr 16 21:59
DeamonFC *fixed Apr 16 21:59
silentivm I hope so Apr 16 21:59
DeamonFC it’s not like people will stop making software that runs on XP soon Apr 16 22:00
DeamonFC and it will keep getting bug fixes for another 5 years or so Apr 16 22:00
silentivm exactly Apr 16 22:01
silentivm at the university where I study, all PCs still run XP Apr 16 22:01
silentivm brand-new machines with XP Apr 16 22:01
silentivm :) Apr 16 22:01
DeamonFC so I’d imagine that by the time they bury Vista and Windows 7 is on it’s first service pack, half of Windows users will still be on XP Apr 16 22:01
silentivm exactly Apr 16 22:01
DeamonFC I used Windows 2000 until XP SP1 Apr 16 22:02
silentivm Windows 2000? I’ve only ran it on a VM Apr 16 22:03
silentivm but I know some people which still use it Apr 16 22:03
DeamonFC Yeah, Windows 2000 wasn’t bad Apr 16 22:03
silentivm exactly Apr 16 22:03
DeamonFC no product activator, no fluff, fairly stable :) Apr 16 22:03
DeamonFC everything Vista isn’t Apr 16 22:03
silentivm :) Apr 16 22:03
silentivm I used Vista briefly, when it was still new Apr 16 22:04
DeamonFC I don’t know how Microsoft managed to fall so hard so fast Apr 16 22:04
silentivm enough for me deciding not to touch it anymore Apr 16 22:04
DeamonFC I got a load of Vista and had a major WTF moment Apr 16 22:04
DeamonFC it’s not that I even mind paying, but I don’t like things that intrude on me Apr 16 22:04
silentivm I don’t mind paying for goods tuff Apr 16 22:05
silentivm *good stuff Apr 16 22:05
silentivm but for a bloated OS? no, thank you very much Apr 16 22:05
DeamonFC you have to figure that theoretically you could buy a copy of XP in 2001 and still be using it several computers and 13 years later before it’s unsupported Apr 16 22:05
silentivm exactly Apr 16 22:06
DeamonFC nLite can even slipstream service packs for you Apr 16 22:06
silentivm yep, never tried it though Apr 16 22:06
schestowitz I know a lobbyist who says he likes Vista Apr 16 22:06
DeamonFC so it comes down to like a whopping $15 a year to use Windows Apr 16 22:06
DeamonFC in that case Apr 16 22:06
schestowitz It gives him more credibility as pro-FOSS advocate Apr 16 22:06
schestowitz If he says he likes Vista, he can’t be anti-MS, can he? Apr 16 22:06
silentivm I guess he can’t Apr 16 22:07
DeamonFC Microsoft doesn’t like that so they’re trying to get to where they can make you pay the same money or more, and then release a new Windows every 3 years or so Apr 16 22:07
DeamonFC that way they can raise the price over 450% and have it appear to be the same Apr 16 22:07
silentivm yep Apr 16 22:08
DeamonFC I love the people that where you tell them Windows Ultimate is $400 they tell you to get OEM for $275 Apr 16 22:11
DeamonFC but OEM can’t be reactivated on a new PC later Apr 16 22:11
DeamonFC so you end up paying $550 or $825 to get out of paying $400 Apr 16 22:12
DeamonFC if you go through 1 or 2 new computers in 10 years Apr 16 22:12
DeamonFC (likely) Apr 16 22:12
silentivm yes, this is why I avoid computers with preloaded Windows Apr 16 22:12
silentivm if I can’t reuse the license on another machine, then no, thanks Apr 16 22:13
DeamonFC that’s just a con game Apr 16 22:13
DeamonFC so the software is worthless and your money is wasted if that motherboard bites it Apr 16 22:13
DeamonFC or you need a newer system Apr 16 22:13
DeamonFC :) Apr 16 22:13
silentivm :) Apr 16 22:13
woofy i seriously don’t get it Apr 16 22:14
woofy why people buy windows Apr 16 22:14
DeamonFC I have a corporate license, so I’ve never seen the product activator Apr 16 22:14
woofy more than 50% of them buy it just as oem Apr 16 22:14
DeamonFC I just slipstreamed the serial number into the installer Apr 16 22:14
woofy may be Apr 16 22:14
silentivm maybe because they think they HAVE to Apr 16 22:15
DeamonFC there are advantages and disadvantages of Windows Apr 16 22:15
DeamonFC but the advantages have been fewer and fewer lately Apr 16 22:15
silentivm exactly Apr 16 22:16
DeamonFC I think one analogy I heard about Linux was that it’s like living in a house that’s permanently under construction Apr 16 22:16
silentivm I’ve seen this one Apr 16 22:16
DeamonFC You’ll have issues that are there in one release and gone with the next Apr 16 22:16
DeamonFC and then you’re dealing with entirely new bugs Apr 16 22:17
silentivm yes Apr 16 22:17
DeamonFC that’s really the only thing good I can say about Windows, is that they don’t tend to add or trade bugs once it’s released Apr 16 22:18
DeamonFC so with Linux there tend to be two kinds of distributions, ones that release constantly and have lots of bugs, and ones that are “stable” and don’t have something you need Apr 16 22:19
silentivm exactly Apr 16 22:20
DeamonFC If Nvidia would release a x86-64 driver for FreeBSD, I’d like to go to that really Apr 16 22:20
DeamonFC I use it on my laptop and love it Apr 16 22:20
silentivm I never really got into BSDs Apr 16 22:21
silentivm maybe because Linux works extremely well on both my machines Apr 16 22:21
DeamonFC PC-BSD has a worthwhile BSD system for desktop users Apr 16 22:21
silentivm I know Apr 16 22:21
DeamonFC and it has ZFS too :) Apr 16 22:21
silentivm :) Apr 16 22:22
woofy silentivm, you’re rare Apr 16 22:22
silentivm I know Apr 16 22:22
silentivm :) Apr 16 22:22
DeamonFC but FreeBSD 8 will support Linux 2.6 system calls Apr 16 22:22
DeamonFC so suddenly a lot more Linux only stuff will work Apr 16 22:22
silentivm I guess I just got lucky with my hardware Apr 16 22:22
silentivm great Apr 16 22:23
DeamonFC that’s currently what you have to do to get Flash 10 working Apr 16 22:23
DeamonFC run it in the Linux Firefox :P Apr 16 22:23
silentivm hmm Apr 16 22:23
silentivm :) Apr 16 22:24
DeamonFC the reliance on just a few critical pieces of proprietary software can make an otherwise perfect system unusable if the vendor won’t support it Apr 16 22:24
silentivm yes Apr 16 22:24
DeamonFC look at how much stuff uses Flash and how many people have Nvidia cards Apr 16 22:24
DeamonFC between those two companies, they’ve crippled FreeBSD for many people Apr 16 22:25
silentivm exactly… I still hope that swfdec/gnash get to the same level as the official Flash plug-in Apr 16 22:25
DeamonFC yeah, Swfdec was catching up to Flash 9 Apr 16 22:26
silentivm I hope it catches up to Flash 10 someday Apr 16 22:26
DeamonFC but now Flash 10 does so many new things that Swfdec is that much further behind it Apr 16 22:26
DeamonFC then Adobe releases Flash 11 :) Apr 16 22:26
silentivm :) Apr 16 22:26
DeamonFC but I mean the benchmark of a good flash plugin used to be “it plays youtube” Apr 16 22:27
DeamonFC now it’s “Can I use my mic and camera” and “Is it GPU accelerated so it won’t eat my CPU?” Apr 16 22:27
silentivm yep Apr 16 22:27
DeamonFC that brings me to the instant messengers, Pidgin doesn’t support voice and video and likely won’t, and everytime aMSN and Gyachi catch up with MSN and Yahoo, MSN and Yahoo change the protocol Apr 16 22:29
DeamonFC so trying to voice conference on Linux becomes a pain because the sheer number of Windows users Apr 16 22:30
DeamonFC Yeah Ekiga works but nobody knows what it is or will download it just cause of you Apr 16 22:30
silentivm most of my Windows-using friends complain about lack of voice/video support on Pidgin Apr 16 22:31
DeamonFC so software is always standardized by the least common denominator Apr 16 22:31
silentivm yes Apr 16 22:31
DeamonFC not governments, industries, or self-appointed bureaucrats Apr 16 22:31
balzac That’s why you have to attack a brand Apr 16 22:32
balzac such as microsoft Apr 16 22:32
DeamonFC the ISO, the ECMA, the IEEE, the W3C, and the Open Group have all failed Apr 16 22:32
DeamonFC even when they define a standard, it leaves it open to interpretation or “extension” Apr 16 22:32
DeamonFC so there’s a million ways to contrive compliance without really having that mean anything Apr 16 22:33
DeamonFC Mac OS X is UNIX, so is Solaris, so that means I can run UNIX binaries on either? No it doesn’t. So that means I can port applications? Only with partial  rewrites or really trivial applications Apr 16 22:34
DeamonFC so the meaning of a standard just kind of breaks down Apr 16 22:34
*schestowitz watches http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUxI3r… Apr 16 22:34
DeamonFC Microsoft isn’t standardized by anything other than their own specs, but they’re the only ones that can tell you what Windows NT is Apr 16 22:35
MinceR if osx is unix, so is android :> Apr 16 22:35
DeamonFC so people see them as a safer bet Apr 16 22:35
DeamonFC now if there was a dozen operating systems by a dozen vendors with only a vague core NT specification, you could easily fall into the UNIX trap Apr 16 22:36
balzac ^_^ Apr 16 22:36
DeamonFC cause they’d all add or remove or botch things in their own ways Apr 16 22:36
DeamonFC just like UNIX Apr 16 22:37
MinceR i don’t see NT avoiding botches ;) Apr 16 22:37
DeamonFC MinceR: My point is there is one NT, and there are dozens of “UNIX” Apr 16 22:38
DeamonFC but the UNIX systems are so far off from each other that they are all their own system Apr 16 22:39
DeamonFC it’s confusing, it’s hard to support, and if a hardware or software maker gets something that works on one of the dozen, they only have 11 more versions to deal with or write for Apr 16 22:40
trmanco http://www.defectivebydesign.org/impe… Apr 16 22:40
DeamonFC but there would have to be a mass reunification or die off in the UNIX world and some real solid specs with penalties for violating them Apr 16 22:42
DeamonFC for any sort of real standard to emerge Apr 16 22:42
balzac DeamonFC: nothing I know has been discovered to replace money as an organizing principle Apr 16 22:43
DeamonFC money is what’s causing UNIX incompatibility Apr 16 22:44
balzac yeah, well money is the solution to that problem Apr 16 22:44
DeamonFC if Solaris, Mac OS, AIX, HP-UX, etc died off Apr 16 22:44
schestowitz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa-… Apr 16 22:44
schestowitz Takes the piss of out Bush Apr 16 22:44
DeamonFC Linux and FreeBSD are similar enough that they could develop some binary compatibility both ways Apr 16 22:45
schestowitz balzac: watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0… and skip to 3:00 Apr 16 22:48
MinceR DeamonFC: this sounds like the usual stupid “too many distros” argument Apr 16 22:48
MinceR it would constrain innovation Apr 16 22:49
MinceR and stop linux/unix from being what makes it great Apr 16 22:49
MinceR perhaps there should be a programmatically testable specification Apr 16 22:49
MinceR you could run it and it would tell you whether whatever you’re running it on conforms to some standard Apr 16 22:50
DeamonFC meh, there are an asinine number of distribution Apr 16 22:50
MinceR (it would probably need a vm) Apr 16 22:50
DeamonFC forked over the dumbest reasons Apr 16 22:50
MinceR certifications are only good for showing off you have money Apr 16 22:50
MinceR so, does the number of distros cause you physical pain or something? Apr 16 22:51
MinceR should distros like gobolinux and nixos be forbidden by law? Apr 16 22:51
*mib_2glfpu (i=8258be83@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b8ef927e8599be9f) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 16 22:51
MinceR should people be forbidden to change the default theme in ubuntu and make a livecd of it for personal use? Apr 16 22:51
MinceR anyway, who would decide which distros get to stay? Apr 16 22:52
DeamonFC changing the theme doesn’t make it incompatible Apr 16 22:52
*mib_2glfpu has quit (Client Quit) Apr 16 22:52
DeamonFC forking Debian made them incompatible in some cases Apr 16 22:52
DeamonFC if they were a permanent fork you’d get RPM-distro syndrome Apr 16 22:52
*mib_244mwb (i=8258be83@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-efb63c89a3a6e145) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 16 22:52
*trmanco has quit (“ERROR: crap-talking overflow – Aborting”) Apr 16 22:53
MinceR the symptom of rpm-distro syndrome is that the distro uses rpm, right? :> Apr 16 22:58
schestowitz LMAO http://www.defectivebydesign.org/imp… Apr 16 22:58
*mib_244mwb has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”) Apr 16 23:00
MinceR gn Apr 16 23:16
silentivm gn Apr 16 23:16
*DeamonFC has quit (“Leaving”) Apr 16 23:21
*Algyz has quit (“Leaving.”) Apr 16 23:26
*PeterKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection) Apr 16 23:26
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 16 23:28
schestowitz Could this be related to Mono backlash following Microsoft’s lawsuit? http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/16/jo-re… Apr 16 23:57
schestowitz I asked some people about Wikipedia’s licence and thanked them for clarifying re: Wikipedia licence leaving the GNU, potentially. If RMS approves, then all is good. Turns out he’s cool with that,. Apr 16 23:59
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