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05.06.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: May 6th, 2009 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 9:23 pm by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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_Hicham_ they were the first to support KMS May 06 02:05
oiaohm KMS is low level tech. May 06 02:06
oiaohm opengl is userspace tech. May 06 02:06
oiaohm Its having all the parts. May 06 02:06
_Hicham_ but KMS is affecting OpenGL, no? May 06 02:06
_Hicham_ if I activate KMS, OpenGL windows freeze the system May 06 02:07
oiaohm That sounds like DRI1 driver trying to operate with KMS. May 06 02:07
_Hicham_ yes May 06 02:08
oiaohm Or DRI 1 opengl trying to operate with KMS. May 06 02:08
_Hicham_ that won’t work? May 06 02:08
oiaohm Yep. May 06 02:08
oiaohm You need all DRI2 support parts to operate with KMS. May 06 02:08
oiaohm + KMS support in X11 server. May 06 02:08
_Hicham_ so I should upgrade to xserver 1.6? May 06 02:08
oiaohm Problem here last time I looked for ATI there was not a complete set of parts yet. May 06 02:09
oiaohm No matching opengl. May 06 02:09
oiaohm So 2d only worked. May 06 02:09
_Hicham_ what kernel was that? May 06 02:10
_Hicham_ 2.6.29? May 06 02:10
oiaohm opengl is a userspace part. May 06 02:11
oiaohm mesa3d project.  Still has not formully released the version required for DRI2. May 06 02:11
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_Hicham_ they have no release schedule? May 06 02:12
oiaohm 2.6.30 parts I have been looking at recently and its not released yet either.  Might have been in 2.6.29 May 06 02:12
oiaohm Middle of year was the planed release schedule May 06 02:12
oiaohm Basically you are early. May 06 02:12
_Hicham_ I must go to sleep May 06 02:15
_Hicham_ gn May 06 02:15
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oiaohm http://www.williannogueira.com.br/blog/wp…  << Ok someone must have been borred. May 06 02:17
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the_mad_hatter Roy, you there? May 06 02:23
the_mad_hatter Well nice work on the Intel patents article. May 06 02:24
the_mad_hatter Now, I have a big problem. I heard a rumor that is so wacky, that I’m hesitant to pass it on, but you’ve got better contacts than I do, and may be able to find out if it’s real, or if someone has done too much LSD. May 06 02:25
the_mad_hatter What I heard, is that a school board has forbidden mention of Creative Commons licenses. The Board in question is supposed to be in Maryland. May 06 02:26
the_mad_hatter I have no idea if this has really happened, or if it’s total bullshit. I think it’s bullshit myself, but life is stranger than fiction. May 06 02:26
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twitter http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p… May 06 07:38
twitter I need a $35,999,999 pillow so that Depression 2.0 does not intrude upon the lifestyle I would like to have. May 06 07:39
twitter ha ha, Intel is not really “caught up” to AMD on VMs after all http://news.cnet.com/8301-139… May 06 07:40
twitter so XP mode and Vista 7 really will have a “Vista capable” moment. May 06 07:41
schestowitz That’s the wrong number May 06 07:41
schestowitz $35,999,999,000 May 06 07:41
schestowitz BoA need to be made bankrupt May 06 07:41
schestowitz Let them fail May 06 07:41
schestowitz This is not capitalism if they can’t fail May 06 07:42
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schestowitz This is a system going bankrupt May 06 07:42
schestowitz So it makes the poorer suffer first May 06 07:42
schestowitz The fat cats just store up more reserves before the meltdown May 06 07:42
twitter Oh, I was being modest.  I don’t need billions, just millions. May 06 07:44
twitter I suppose I need to be greedier to get my bailout. May 06 07:44
twitter John C. Yoo and Jay S. Bybee attempt to get away with torture.   http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conten… May 06 07:45
twitter the argument against prosecution is ludicrous.  it essentially is, “the US government will cease to function if we punish those who broke the law in the sickest and most disgusting ways.” May 06 07:46
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twitter in reality, the US will cease to be the US if it’s officers are not bound by it’s laws. May 06 07:48
schestowitz The US is out of control May 06 07:55
schestowitz They just let those who corrupted it for ages get handed loans May 06 07:56
schestowitz Get money from China, give it to the rich and their enterprise May 06 07:56
schestowitz Guess who will need to be slaved to pay China back for decades…. May 06 07:56
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twitter I’m afraid your analysis is correct May 06 08:03
twitter that is bad news for everyone May 06 08:03
twitter that the US will sink beneath Chinese tyranny. May 06 08:04
iwmw http://bash.org/?40751 May 06 08:04
twitter the victory over Soviet communism lasted less than 20 years May 06 08:04
twitter heh, M$ does not have to pay for domain names.  every “typo” lands you on live search May 06 08:06
twitter this includes “incomplete” addresses, such as site.name.com instead of “http://site.name.com May 06 08:06
twitter the search result usually contains a link to the page you actually wanted. May 06 08:07
twitter how’s that for innovation? May 06 08:07
twitter twitter is sleepy, must rest.  gn May 06 08:07
schestowitz Microsoft: where crime meets computing May 06 08:09
schestowitz The story they love telling is that they are the responsible adults who will protect you, so if you don’t rescue them, then horrible things will happen. I heard this explanation before. May 06 08:15
MinceR geekings May 06 08:21
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oiaohm I really should do up a Map of the PR game. May 06 08:28
schestowitz That sorta exists May 06 08:32
schestowitz There are tools for that srot of stuff May 06 08:32
oiaohm I was not meaning a full map of the players.   A map of how the game is played. May 06 08:34
schestowitz Oh May 06 08:37
schestowitz I see… May 06 08:37
schestowitz Visualising it? May 06 08:37
schestowitz I can’t quite envision it May 06 08:38
oiaohm More of a simplified form so it can be envisioned. May 06 08:40
schestowitz Somone must have done it May 06 08:43
schestowitz A few textual section and diagrams May 06 08:43
schestowitz ownage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v… May 06 08:56
oiaohm The diagram shows something sad that the people putting the money in can be the very ones being attacked by it. May 06 09:00
oiaohm Something the PR world normally does not like to publish. May 06 09:00
schestowitz Yes, that’s a well known thing May 06 09:02
schestowitz People funding their coffins basically May 06 09:02
schestowitz In a metaphorical sense. May 06 09:03
schestowitz It’s more like the example of asking someone to dig a while that later becomes a grave May 06 09:03
schestowitz Or like Gates Foundary telling taxpayers to fund the pharmas that make money from their illness May 06 09:03
schestowitz In other case, it’s the people who pay to be deceived May 06 09:04
schestowitz it’s well understood that people fund PR May 06 09:04
schestowitz 20% of the cost of merchandise (estimated, in the US, on average) is for the very same marketing to leads us to products May 06 09:04
schestowitz Like brands May 06 09:04
oiaohm Donating to a charity could be Donating to a PR firm. May 06 09:06
oiaohm Now if you don’t have enough PR money yourself you sometimes make up some kind of sob story and hope a group with money buys it so you can attack your competion. May 06 09:07
oiaohm Level of evil in this mess is past what most people dream. May 06 09:07
oiaohm Yet its suprisng a simple diagram when you remove all the duplication May 06 09:13
schestowitz Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watc… May 06 09:23
schestowitz Yes May 06 09:23
schestowitz I recently learned about trade wars May 06 09:23
schestowitz Like daemonising foreign goods May 06 09:24
schestowitz Using labels and sob stories May 06 09:24
schestowitz With feel-good lab els May 06 09:24
schestowitz Microsoft has some anti-Google groups May 06 09:24
schestowitz Not the one we discussed yesterday May 06 09:24
schestowitz Wired exposed them May 06 09:24
schestowitz It’s usually privay oriented May 06 09:24
schestowitz Microsoft finds a vector for attacking Google May 06 09:24
schestowitz Then it created ‘charitable’ foundation to protect privacy May 06 09:25
schestowitz They spin in the press May 06 09:25
schestowitz and also daemonise Google among diplomats and in the press May 06 09:25
schestowitz Good documentary about PR: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis… May 06 09:26
schestowitz Apple power brick sparks lawsuit http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/0… May 06 09:30
schestowitz Clarke at the Reg is still boosting MS. Argh. May 06 09:33
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_Hicham_ Hi oiaohm May 06 09:51
MinceR _Hi cham_ May 06 09:51
schestowitz “I’ve been noticing that when I see references to this story, I’m likely to see an “Anonymous” poster claiming to be from Extremadura, post a statement to the effect that the FOSS developments in Spain has been so poorly managed that Windows will look good. But there’s never any details given, and it smells very astro-turfish — does anyone here know anything?” May 06 10:00
schestowitz http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_stor… May 06 10:00
schestowitz Spanish Government May be Breaking the Law with Microsoft. European Commission Should Investigate. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/06… May 06 10:00
_Hicham_ MS is helping out here May 06 10:01
_Hicham_ with “cheap” Vista licenses May 06 10:01
_Hicham_ and providing Visual Studio for free to professors May 06 10:02
oiaohm Problem is all these cheep give aways are directly hitting MS bottom line. May 06 10:03
_Hicham_ but I say to them : “Hey Billie, fuck you, I won’t even port my programs to your platform” May 06 10:04
_Hicham_ who want better software must switch to Linux May 06 10:04
_Hicham_ who want better hardware support must switch to Linux May 06 10:05
_Hicham_ closed source OSes are obsolete May 06 10:05
oiaohm Software development firm who cannot afford coders. May 06 10:05
oiaohm Is a dead firm. May 06 10:05
_Hicham_ Mr Stevie once said : “Developers, Developers,Developers” May 06 10:06
_Hicham_ after he said : “Advertisers, Advertisers,Advertisers” May 06 10:07
_Hicham_ now he is saying : “Please give some money” May 06 10:07
iwmw i’m pretty sure there were lawyers also May 06 10:07
_Hicham_ “I am begging you, don’t let us die” May 06 10:07
_Hicham_ but people are bringing out their dicks, not to fuck them, just to pee on them May 06 10:08
schestowitz “Dvorak was widely in print.  I no longer have access to old article May 06 10:10
schestowitz databases, but if you or other contacts have access it should be fairly May 06 10:10
schestowitz easy to dig up the original article with a bit of searching: May 06 10:10
schestowitz “Back in the mid-1990s, PC Magazine columnist John C. May 06 10:10
schestowitz Dvorak wrote something curious about this operating May 06 10:10
schestowitz system. He said he knew of an easter egg present in CP/M May 06 10:10
schestowitz in the late 1970s that caused Kildall’s name and a May 06 10:10
schestowitz copyright notice to be printed. Very early versions May 06 10:10
schestowitz (presumably before the 1.0 release) of DOS had this same May 06 10:10
schestowitz easter egg. This of course screams copyright violation.” May 06 10:10
schestowitz http://dfarq.homeip.net/article/935 May 06 10:10
schestowitz can anyone help? May 06 10:10
schestowitz “Developers, Developers,Developers” as before  “Advertisers, Advertisers,Advertisers” May 06 10:11
schestowitz *was May 06 10:11
_Hicham_ doesn’t matter May 06 10:12
_Hicham_ Devs do not do big efforts out there May 06 10:12
_Hicham_ they are stealing other people’s code May 06 10:12
_Hicham_ adding some crappy GUI of their own May 06 10:13
_Hicham_ and then throwing it to people May 06 10:13
_Hicham_ to make them enjoy BSOD May 06 10:13
_Hicham_ oh my beloved BSOD, when I am concentrated on sthg and you come out like a ghost May 06 10:16
_Hicham_ while I am enjoying lsass vulnerabilities and svchost May 06 10:16
_Hicham_ did u test firefox 3.1 out there? May 06 10:17
iwmw there’s 3.5b4 May 06 10:19
_Hicham_ did u test it? May 06 10:20
oiaohm BSOD is something MS got right. May 06 10:20
oiaohm Ok close to right. May 06 10:20
_Hicham_ really? May 06 10:20
oiaohm You are not sitting there wondering if the machine has crashed or not. May 06 10:20
_Hicham_ u prefer it to kernel flashing lights? May 06 10:20
iwmw will test 3.5b4 at home May 06 10:20
oiaohm Its straight in your face. May 06 10:20
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oiaohm Linux kernel panic flashing lights on keyboard can be the only clue other than lack of movement. May 06 10:21
_Hicham_ will KMS offer a BSOD for Linux? May 06 10:21
oiaohm KMS is being added to Linux to give a BSOD like effect. May 06 10:21
iwmw what’s kms May 06 10:21
_Hicham_ great May 06 10:21
_Hicham_ now we can have a windowish experience inside Linux May 06 10:22
oiaohm Difference is Linux kernel is going to use closer to plain english so users standard a sporting chance to understand why it died. May 06 10:22
oiaohm KMS is a feature being added to the Linux kernel.  Kernel Mode Switching.   Basially controls what mode you video card is in iwmw May 06 10:22
oiaohm _Hicham_: BSOD was predated by the the amiga Guru Meditation. May 06 10:23
oiaohm Its not even a New MS feature. May 06 10:23
oiaohm Its mostly that X11 was basically hacked on to linux/unix/bsd that something equal did not exist for them _Hicham_ May 06 10:24
_Hicham_ because of compatibility issues with old Unix May 06 10:24
_Hicham_ Linux must stop being a clone of Unix May 06 10:25
oiaohm No./ May 06 10:25
_Hicham_ Unix compatibility should disappear May 06 10:25
oiaohm All remianing Unixs are picking up KMS alterations. May 06 10:25
_Hicham_ I don’t see that Linux should stay compatible with Unix May 06 10:25
_Hicham_ Linux should move away May 06 10:26
oiaohm Its a little hard not to. May 06 10:26
_Hicham_ and stop being a clone May 06 10:26
schestowitz Steve (Jobs): Developers, Developers, Developers… Get the Hell Out http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/06/a… May 06 10:26
_Hicham_ it is easier May 06 10:26
oiaohm Thinking that Linux syscalls are officaly Unix standard syscalls. May 06 10:26
schestowitz Can a BSOD BSDOD? May 06 10:26
oiaohm Currently its the other way _Hicham_ May 06 10:26
schestowitz I think it’s somrthing MS got right May 06 10:26
_Hicham_ Linux was following Unix because it was dominant May 06 10:26
schestowitz What if there’s an exception in BSOD and it crashes? May 06 10:27
oiaohm Unix is staying in line with Linux at moment _Hicham_ May 06 10:27
schestowitz That’s like a universe being sucked onto itself May 06 10:27
_Hicham_ now Linux is more powerful May 06 10:27
oiaohm Yep roles have reversed _Hicham_ May 06 10:27
oiaohm Who is following who has reversed in a lot of areas. May 06 10:27
_Hicham_ compatibility breaks shouldn’t be a problem May 06 10:27
_Hicham_ it is u who is saying that May 06 10:28
_Hicham_ ur own words May 06 10:28
schestowitz What if there’s an oops in kernel oops? May 06 10:28
_Hicham_ think of a new design of kernel and gcc May 06 10:28
oiaohm _Hicham_: there is a problem with breaking compadbility with a standard. May 06 10:28
oiaohm The ammount of stuff you would have to change. May 06 10:28
_Hicham_ Linux is the standard May 06 10:29
oiaohm Linux standard is based on posix standard. May 06 10:29
oiaohm Shared with all Unix’s and BSD’s. May 06 10:29
_Hicham_ POSIX is old May 06 10:29
oiaohm And windows API’s are somehow magically new. May 06 10:29
oiaohm POSIX was only updated a short time ago _Hicham_ May 06 10:30
_Hicham_ when? May 06 10:30
_Hicham_ Win32 API is fucking weird May 06 10:31
_Hicham_ and heavy May 06 10:31
_Hicham_ to open up a single window you have to write 70 lines of C code May 06 10:31
iwmw for sure May 06 10:31
_Hicham_ and MFC adds a big overhead May 06 10:32
iwmw what about wtl May 06 10:32
_Hicham_ you have to load mfcxx into memory May 06 10:32
_Hicham_ which will map to msvcrt May 06 10:32
oiaohm Last posix update was published was 2005 we are due another for 2010. May 06 10:33
oiaohm Note MS posix compadiblity is way before that. May 06 10:33
oiaohm Posix is not a standard set in stone it does change. May 06 10:33
_Hicham_ Linux must not be crippled by standards May 06 10:34
oiaohm Its not. May 06 10:34
_Hicham_ standards do not always meet coding requirements May 06 10:34
_Hicham_ sometimes we need to do lots of hacks just to meet standards May 06 10:35
_Hicham_ Linux must be the standard May 06 10:35
_Hicham_ I mean, Linux must set standards May 06 10:35
oiaohm There is a problem here.  With posix that is not normally true. May 06 10:35
_Hicham_ how? May 06 10:36
oiaohm posix defines base interfaces. May 06 10:36
oiaohm Does not forbid adding extras. May 06 10:36
oiaohm If you are building cross platform you will follow posix.   if not you may choose to use platform dependant code. May 06 10:37
oiaohm Linux Standard Base.  Contains a base of posix with a lot of extentions. May 06 10:37
_Hicham_ fuck cross platform code May 06 10:37
_Hicham_ it is crippling devs May 06 10:38
_Hicham_ we just need code for Linux May 06 10:38
_Hicham_ see Firefox’ example May 06 10:38
_Hicham_ it runs better on Windows May 06 10:38
oiaohm Good reason. May 06 10:38
oiaohm Gcc cannot optmise to save itself. May 06 10:38
MinceR ff targets windows primarily May 06 10:39
_Hicham_ we need to concentrate on Linux May 06 10:39
oiaohm And msvc on windows can optmise better than gcc. May 06 10:39
oiaohm We need to fix the complier. May 06 10:39
oiaohm for firefox to get better. May 06 10:39
_Hicham_ Intel is participating to gcc development May 06 10:39
oiaohm Hopefully the evils of gcc get fixed. May 06 10:40
oiaohm Cross platform between mac os x Linux BSD Solarias and other Unix’s is fairly simple due to the posix standard. May 06 10:40
oiaohm Porting to windows does cost a lot of work. May 06 10:41
MinceR except for osx using a completely different gui? May 06 10:41
MinceR toolkits help though May 06 10:41
oiaohm You can still use X11 on osx May 06 10:41
oiaohm Yes it looks shockly bad but it works. May 06 10:41
oiaohm Note firefox on windows runs better than firefox on OS X as well _Hicham_ .   Linux had a filesystem error that made Firefox run slow. May 06 10:43
_Hicham_ which filesystem? ext3? May 06 10:44
oiaohm Without cross platform the filesystem flaw could have went unnoticed. May 06 10:44
oiaohm ext3 and a few others. May 06 10:44
oiaohm Case were with posix its not much work to be cross platform over all developer cost is not much.   Crossing to windows api and back is down right expensive. May 06 10:46
oiaohm posix world you can pick up more coders working on the application than the cost to be cross platform. May 06 10:46
oiaohm Just by supporting more platforms. May 06 10:46
oiaohm The idea that cross platform is bad in the posix worlds is more often than not wrong. May 06 10:47
_Hicham_ so you are saying that ntfs is not having this flaws? May 06 10:48
oiaohm OS X filesystem did not have the flaw. May 06 10:49
oiaohm Niether does BSD default. May 06 10:49
oiaohm Neither does ZFS under solarias. May 06 10:49
oiaohm Out of all the posix OS’s Linux has the slowest running Firefox. May 06 10:49
oiaohm Please note BSD and solarias can run Linux binaries. May 06 10:50
_Hicham_ does ext4 correct this? May 06 10:50
oiaohm There is a correction comeing for ext3 and ext4. May 06 10:50
oiaohm Order of operation and locking both are causing the slow down. May 06 10:51
_Hicham_ do u recommend using ext4? May 06 10:52
oiaohm Not until atleast 2.6.30 that is not released yet. May 06 10:53
oiaohm Lot of posix applications are called cross platform even that they don’t support Windows. May 06 10:55
_Hicham_ Windows shouldn’t be supported May 06 10:55
_Hicham_ we must kill Windows May 06 10:56
_Hicham_ instead of supporting it May 06 10:56
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oiaohm There is a place for cross platform. May 06 10:57
oiaohm Just they may not be a place for platforms that are complex to do cross platform support for  like Windows. May 06 10:57
_Hicham_ cross platforming to Windows is full of headaches May 06 11:01
_Hicham_ even with cross platform toolkits May 06 11:01
oiaohm Posix to posix is simple. May 06 11:01
_Hicham_ I think that we should cross platform the Destkop Environment as well May 06 11:02
_Hicham_ Gnome should follow KDE on this May 06 11:02
_Hicham_ and applications should depend on KDE Windows and Gnome Windows May 06 11:03
_Hicham_ that should ease the Windows execution May 06 11:03
_Hicham_ RedHat’s Cygwin is doing a great job May 06 11:03
_Hicham_ but it is not enough May 06 11:04
oiaohm Don’t prase Cygwin anywhere near me. May 06 11:04
oiaohm I have been threw it source code. May 06 11:04
oiaohm http://www.khronos.org/openkode/  Is another group going after a interface wrapper. May 06 11:04
_Hicham_ I know that it is not a good map between Unix calls and Windows calls May 06 11:05
_Hicham_ but it was the first initiative May 06 11:05
oiaohm Its not the mapping. May 06 11:05
oiaohm Its the lack of mapping. May 06 11:05
oiaohm So you endup with lots of code between you and the OS so you end up very slugish. May 06 11:06
oiaohm This is also partly gcc fault again. May 06 11:07
oiaohm If focus need to be put anywhere in the posix world in a hurry its gcc. May 06 11:07
_Hicham_ that is what is done now May 06 11:07
_Hicham_ Intel hopefully will speed up gcc development May 06 11:08
oiaohm Its not going to be fast. May 06 11:09
oiaohm Lot of bad things have happened inside the gcc code base. May 06 11:09
_Hicham_ more effort is going inside gcc nowadays May 06 11:10
_Hicham_ more corporate firms are supporting gcc May 06 11:10
_Hicham_ companies start to feel the urge to fix gcc May 06 11:10
oiaohm There are a lot of hacks to gcc that have to be fixed correctly. May 06 11:10
schestowitz Microsoft’s Latest Lie Attack Against GNU/Linux and ODF < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05… > May 06 11:11
_Hicham_ gcc can even be redesigned May 06 11:11
oiaohm Core design for gcc is not that bad. May 06 11:11
oiaohm Its all the code rot on top. May 06 11:11
oiaohm It had 1 major design error no link time optmisiation. May 06 11:12
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mib_0s7jfd what’s this? May 06 11:12
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_Hicham_ I think that multithreading optimization can be added May 06 11:13
_Hicham_ it is not that big May 06 11:13
_Hicham_ plus Intel will hopefully contribute from some of its icc code base May 06 11:13
oiaohm multithreading is pointless if you don’t have no link time optmisation to split the threads up accross the complete program. May 06 11:16
oiaohm Link time optimisation is very much a key stone to optimise programs correctly. May 06 11:17
oiaohm Without it you cannot. May 06 11:17
_Hicham_ hopefully it will be done in the next years May 06 11:18
oiaohm http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/LinkTi…  Its under way. May 06 11:18
oiaohm If lucky maybe end of year. May 06 11:19
oiaohm If not llvm might get there first. May 06 11:19
schestowitz “I have a nagging suspicion Microsoft might shoot down this trial balloon before it expands into a full-blown marketing disaster. Acer and Intel, for example, are already complaining that Windows 7 Starter Edition simply won’t sell.” http://www.bmighty.com/blog/main/… May 06 11:22
oiaohm Starter is going to be a disaster. May 06 11:23
oiaohm So far not one netbook maker has said they will ship it. May 06 11:23
oiaohm Most have said they will stay with XP. May 06 11:24
oiaohm Or go to Linux. May 06 11:24
oiaohm Even Windows 7 starter is too heavy on resources. May 06 11:24
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_Hicham_ why people stick to Windows? May 06 11:26
oiaohm Its what they know. May 06 11:27
oiaohm Most people are trained to fear anything different. May 06 11:27
_Hicham_ I try to make people use Linux in my classroom, but they do not want to May 06 11:29
_Hicham_ they can’t even seem to know how to browse their folders in Linux May 06 11:29
iwmw you better show them how cool linux is May 06 11:30
_Hicham_ which is really weird May 06 11:30
oiaohm It is not. May 06 11:30
iwmw they will migrate themselves May 06 11:30
_Hicham_ I already do May 06 11:30
oiaohm They are trained to fear. May 06 11:30
oiaohm Under windows do the wrong thing it BSOD’s. May 06 11:30
oiaohm exploring is punished. May 06 11:30
iwmw _Hicham_: then show them how in a better way you do smth that they do with windows May 06 11:30
_Hicham_ I tried times and times again May 06 11:31
oiaohm I normally break the fear on windows before introducing linux. May 06 11:31
_Hicham_ I even give them pirated software that runs on Linux May 06 11:31
iwmw then they are just limited May 06 11:31
_Hicham_ commercial pirated software May 06 11:31
oiaohm Did you break there fear of crashing the machine _Hicham_ May 06 11:32
_Hicham_ for example : MATLAB May 06 11:32
_Hicham_ yes May 06 11:32
_Hicham_ as they always see me running Linux May 06 11:32
_Hicham_ for daily use May 06 11:32
oiaohm Where they exploring applicatiosn before you indroduced Linux. May 06 11:32
oiaohm Ie trying new applications on windows without fear. May 06 11:32
_Hicham_ some don’t even want to try Firefox on Windows May 06 11:33
_Hicham_ it is fucking weird May 06 11:33
oiaohm Exactly. May 06 11:33
_Hicham_ I just gave up on them May 06 11:33
oiaohm You have moved too far too soon. May 06 11:33
_Hicham_ Linux people should be more aggressive May 06 11:33
_Hicham_ and force Windows to go down May 06 11:33
_Hicham_ no more gentle way May 06 11:33
oiaohm If they will not try firefox or openoffice… abiword… May 06 11:33
oiaohm On windows. May 06 11:34
oiaohm When you get them on Linux they know nothing. May 06 11:34
oiaohm So they have strange interface. May 06 11:34
oiaohm and strange software. May 06 11:34
_Hicham_ they all stick to fucking MS Office 2007 May 06 11:34
oiaohm so they go back to fear. May 06 11:34
oiaohm And go back to what they know. May 06 11:34
oiaohm So you fail. May 06 11:34
_Hicham_ a professor was teaching us LaTeX with a pirated software May 06 11:35
_Hicham_ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????? May 06 11:35
oiaohm Its the same thing. May 06 11:35
oiaohm Fear. May 06 11:35
_Hicham_ that is why I say : Open Source should stop developing for Windows May 06 11:35
oiaohm That don’t help fight fear. May 06 11:35
_Hicham_ no more Open Source programs for Windows May 06 11:36
oiaohm So they will stick with commerical. May 06 11:36
oiaohm No win that path. May 06 11:36
_Hicham_ better focus on more important things than cross platforming May 06 11:36
oiaohm Its method. May 06 11:36
oiaohm I guess lot would not even use 7-zip May 06 11:36
_Hicham_ they will stay with commercial even with cross platforming May 06 11:36
_Hicham_ 7-zip have choosen the wrong way with MFC May 06 11:37
oiaohm You are not getting my question. May 06 11:37
_Hicham_ what is ur question? May 06 11:37
_Hicham_ please Steve Ballmer? May 06 11:37
iwmw _Hicham_: in university we were always taught with pirated software May 06 11:37
oiaohm If these people fear using different applications for different tasks. May 06 11:37
iwmw on every subject May 06 11:37
oiaohm There is no way for them to go to Linux. May 06 11:38
_Hicham_ “We want to see all of the Open Source innovation on our Platform” May 06 11:38
oiaohm You will find they are like stuck with 1 burning software. May 06 11:38
oiaohm 1 office suit. May 06 11:38
_Hicham_ that is not a solution May 06 11:38
oiaohm Basically 1 of everything including OS. May 06 11:38
_Hicham_ the radical solution is May 06 11:38
oiaohm People like that cannot be moved in there current mind state. May 06 11:38
_Hicham_ bribe computer vendors to ship Linux May 06 11:39
oiaohm There are particular things Openoffice can do faster and simpler than MS office. May 06 11:39
_Hicham_ FSF should be more aggressive May 06 11:39
_Hicham_ we shouldn’t explain to people May 06 11:39
oiaohm Just like firefox’s extentions let it do things IE cannot. May 06 11:39
_Hicham_ no explanations for people May 06 11:39
_Hicham_ we need actions May 06 11:39
oiaohm Breaking the fear requires the right approce. May 06 11:40
oiaohm Its like gimp vs photoshop. May 06 11:40
_Hicham_ we don’t have to break their fear May 06 11:40
iwmw you won’t break the fear with aggressive actions May 06 11:40
_Hicham_ it is all about forcing May 06 11:40
oiaohm Yes gimp does not beat photoshop everywhere but it does in some areas.. May 06 11:40
_Hicham_ like pushing hardware vendors to not support Windows May 06 11:40
oiaohm Once the fear is broken introducing Linux goes over well. May 06 11:40
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_Hicham_ what do u think if Nvidia and ATI stopped supporting Windows? May 06 11:41
oiaohm They will just explore and say I like that and I hate that and they will be talking about both OS’s. May 06 11:41
_Hicham_ what do u think if game developers stopped developing for Windows? May 06 11:41
_Hicham_ what do u think if adobe stopped developing flash for Windows? May 06 11:41
oiaohm Did Mac users leave just because there software droped. May 06 11:42
_Hicham_ tell me May 06 11:42
mib_o94uh2 “what do you think if pigs could fly?” May 06 11:42
oiaohm That line you are on will not work. May 06 11:42
_Hicham_ Mac users are more aware than Windows users May 06 11:42
oiaohm Fear will lock them in. May 06 11:42
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oiaohm Not all Mac users. May 06 11:42
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oiaohm You don’t understand the Fear that is the problem. May 06 11:42
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_Hicham_ there is no fear May 06 11:43
_Hicham_ people don’t even know what is an OS May 06 11:43
_Hicham_ it is not about fear May 06 11:43
oiaohm Will they use programs they have never used before. May 06 11:43
oiaohm If no they have the fear. May 06 11:43
_Hicham_ for new users, yes May 06 11:43
_Hicham_ a new user doesn’t know about OS May 06 11:43
oiaohm You will find over 90 percent of windows users will not. May 06 11:44
_Hicham_ or office suite May 06 11:44
oiaohm They have fear. May 06 11:44
oiaohm Don’t show it. May 06 11:44
_Hicham_ I am talking about first time users May 06 11:44
oiaohm In any other form than actions. May 06 11:44
oiaohm First time users with no windows experince at all take quite well to Linux. May 06 11:44
oiaohm Just there are almost none of them. May 06 11:45
oiaohm Most have minor windows experince more often enough to have the fear. May 06 11:45
_Hicham_ because of shipping Windows on machines May 06 11:45
oiaohm Human nature is to fear anything different. May 06 11:46
_Hicham_ bribing software vendors will help May 06 11:46
oiaohm That has to be broken before you can get anywhere. May 06 11:46
oiaohm Appling force just makes persons hidding fear worse. May 06 11:47
_Hicham_ to display a bios message like : “don’t use Windows, it is very dangerous!” May 06 11:47
oiaohm That will not work. May 06 11:47
_Hicham_ hardware vendors are the key May 06 11:47
_Hicham_ why it won’t work? May 06 11:47
oiaohm Trying to create a new fear to distroy old now creates a person with 2 fears. May 06 11:48
oiaohm Instead of 1. May 06 11:48
oiaohm So going backwards. May 06 11:48
_Hicham_ better than letting him confident in Windows May 06 11:48
oiaohm Part of the problem most are not confident in there IT skills. May 06 11:49
oiaohm So fear can take hold of them. May 06 11:49
_Hicham_ Distros are now more user friendly May 06 11:50
_Hicham_ take for example Fedora,Ubuntu,Mandriva, OpenSuse May 06 11:50
oiaohm I still remember starting my mother off on a computer and bending the side of the case with foot.  Saying this machine is a junker if you don’t use I am putting it in the crusher anyhow. May 06 11:50
oiaohm So you really cannot break it any worse than I am planing. May 06 11:50
_Hicham_ what do u suggest to break the market lock-in? May 06 11:51
oiaohm user friendly is worthless if user has fear that blocks some from exploring and experiencing the user friendlyness. May 06 11:51
oiaohm First part is excepting the fear exists _Hicham_ May 06 11:52
oiaohm Secound part is taking it on in a positive way.   Like with feature demos that doing particular things you can do better in other programs. May 06 11:52
oiaohm Finaly leading up to that particular things are better in different OS’s. May 06 11:53
oiaohm This is a postive process you are providing users with faster/cheeper and better ways to get stuff down. May 06 11:53
oiaohm One of my normal Linux introductions is that windows has died and using a Linux livecd they can get there important files. May 06 11:54
uda sorry for a little off topic q, but i downloaded server08 trial to see what silverlight is all about, and suspect iso may be corrupt. anyone have crc/md5/sha for 6001.18000.080118-1840_x86fre_Se rver_en-us-KRMSFRE_EN_DVD.iso ? May 06 11:55
oiaohm uda I am not touching silverlight with a ten foot pole. May 06 11:55
oiaohm Notice somethign here _Hicham_ my Linux introduction is not about using it for everything it allowing them todo something they might need 1 day. May 06 11:56
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oiaohm Also if you are downloading from MS there are checksums on the download page uda. May 06 11:58
oiaohm uda so its really strange to be asking for checksums. May 06 11:59
uda oiaohm, not from this one for some reason May 06 11:59
uda http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/de… May 06 11:59
oiaohm Ok its one of those. May 06 12:02
oiaohm Its dated on download so unless 2 people download on the same day you cannot checksum. May 06 12:02
oiaohm all you can do is run a iso defect check. May 06 12:03
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_Hicham_ what do u think of deltarpms? May 06 12:14
oiaohm deltarpms most of the time will work. May 06 12:17
oiaohm There is always a risk of course of preexisting damage having side effects not expected. May 06 12:17
schestowitz Red Hat States Its Case Against Software Patents http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/… May 06 12:18
schestowitz Microsoft Moonlight Reaches New Milestone So Microsoft Crowd Rejoices http://boycottnovell.com/2009/… May 06 12:19
_Hicham_ I think that it is easy to implement May 06 12:19
_Hicham_ and wondering why linux lacked such an easy feature May 06 12:20
oiaohm Every check sum can fail _Hicham_ May 06 12:20
oiaohm In away that next check sum passes. May 06 12:20
_Hicham_ it is not related to checksums May 06 12:20
oiaohm It is. May 06 12:20
_Hicham_ checksums are download related May 06 12:20
oiaohm delta contains a form of checksum so it don’t patch wrong file. May 06 12:21
oiaohm It has been avoided on the point of view it was just wiser to replace the lot. May 06 12:21
schestowitz Ballmer’s bunker speech: http://vowe.net/archives/010470.html May 06 12:22
_Hicham_ it is about remanaging rpm database May 06 12:24
_Hicham_ schestowitz : I won’t get upset if RedHat patented a piece of software May 06 12:25
oiaohm delta cannot be patented. May 06 12:25
oiaohm Its too old. May 06 12:25
_Hicham_ im not talking about patenting delta May 06 12:25
oiaohm delta rpms May 06 12:26
oiaohm Is about reducing the storage of duplicate rpms by using delta May 06 12:26
_Hicham_ yes, i just answered schestowitz May 06 12:26
oiaohm There are side effects. May 06 12:26
_Hicham_ side effects can be managed May 06 12:27
oiaohm Hmm May 06 12:27
_Hicham_ basically delta rpms are very simple theoretically May 06 12:27
oiaohm Do you know that the side effect are. May 06 12:27
_Hicham_ u have rpm version 1, and rpm version 2 May 06 12:27
_Hicham_ then u need deltarpm2-1 May 06 12:28
_Hicham_ the downloaded delta will modify rpm database to provide rpm version 2 May 06 12:28
_Hicham_ so no rpm database corruption can occur May 06 12:28
oiaohm The delta is the diff between versions.  What if first version that delta is working on is damaged in a way you cannot detect. May 06 12:29
oiaohm Things kinda can go south badly. May 06 12:30
oiaohm Its not without its risks. May 06 12:30
oiaohm For a long time Linux developers have just avoided the path. May 06 12:31
oiaohm There are advantages to not patching a program over and over again and just putting in fresh versions. May 06 12:32
oiaohm Basically both ways have downsides and advantages. May 06 12:32
oiaohm You will learn for almost every advantage in IT _Hicham_ there is a downside. May 06 12:32
_Hicham_ patched software equals fresh version May 06 12:34
_Hicham_ in theory May 06 12:34
oiaohm Real world it don’t. May 06 12:34
oiaohm Most of the time yes. May 06 12:34
oiaohm But there are odd cases were it will not due to damage. May 06 12:34
oiaohm theory you are using its not allowing for real world damage to files _Hicham_ May 06 12:36
_Hicham_ that is QA May 06 12:36
_Hicham_ not concept related May 06 12:36
oiaohm Nop. May 06 12:36
oiaohm QA don’t help you nere. May 06 12:36
oiaohm here May 06 12:36
oiaohm Problem happens in the machine user end. May 06 12:36
oiaohm Not where you are developing the delta May 06 12:37
oiaohm Check sums are using with delta in rpm to try to prevent this event from happing. May 06 12:39
oiaohm Try is the key word _Hicham_ May 06 12:39
oiaohm Remember I said they would work most of the time. May 06 12:40
oiaohm There will be the poor unlucky sods out there where it decides not to most likely 1 in 20 million or so. May 06 12:41
schestowitz Some artwork: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/… May 06 12:42
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oiaohm Ok what was the last line you got from me _Hicham_1 May 06 12:43
_Hicham_1 that deltarpms are not gonna be that good in practice May 06 12:43
schestowitz Red Hat should not patent software May 06 12:44
schestowitz I don’t agree May 06 12:44
schestowitz That opens the door to everyone and makes a patent minefield May 06 12:44
schestowitz What you say is, “give a gun to this one person” May 06 12:44
schestowitz Why|? May 06 12:44
oiaohm _Hicham_1 We are not talking large number here 1 in 20 million or less risk of deltarpms going south.   When you have 1000 + users hanging of a machine minor risks worry you. May 06 12:45
oiaohm Some of those would download files twice and compare them.   So bandwidth saving is not a issue to them. May 06 12:46
_Hicham_1 package quality is up to the maintainer May 06 12:46
_Hicham_1 also deltarpm quality May 06 12:46
oiaohm Problem is the defect is not maintainer side. May 06 12:46
oiaohm Its user machine side. May 06 12:46
_Hicham_1 what defect if it well tested? May 06 12:46
oiaohm Damage to files due to drives and controllers. May 06 12:47
_Hicham_1 schestowitz : RedHat need to make more money May 06 12:47
oiaohm It does happen. May 06 12:47
_Hicham_1 ah, I see now May 06 12:47
schestowitz The anti-Stallman crowd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?… May 06 12:47
_Hicham_1 ur thinking in term of data recovery May 06 12:47
schestowitz Posing as Linux May 06 12:47
oiaohm I am thinking since it a patch if what it is patch is screwed up but not detectable. May 06 12:48
oiaohm Patch will still apply giving a not working program. May 06 12:48
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oiaohm Also the file on the client end that has been on the drive all that time could be damaged. May 06 12:49
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oiaohm It comes down to if you detect the fault. May 06 12:49
oiaohm schestowitz: I guess you alreadly understood everything I was saying to _Hicham_ May 06 12:50
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oiaohm _Hicham_: it basically comes down how to you know when you should not apply the patch. May 06 12:50
_Hicham_ so the risk is hardware failure related? May 06 12:50
oiaohm Due to what you are lining up to patch is damaged but you cannot detect it. May 06 12:50
oiaohm Its hardware glitch releated. May 06 12:51
oiaohm Like a cable being bumped at the wrong time. May 06 12:51
oiaohm Not broken hardware as such. May 06 12:51
oiaohm Real world has such glitches. May 06 12:51
schestowitz New release of gnote (ping trmanco ) May 06 12:51
_Hicham_ Yes, I see now May 06 12:51
_Hicham_ so deltarpms are a bad idea then? May 06 12:52
oiaohm saving in bandwidth most likely worth it. May 06 12:52
oiaohm For most people. May 06 12:52
oiaohm But it is use with care. May 06 12:52
oiaohm And if you have ben deltarpm patching and a program goes strange. May 06 12:53
_Hicham_ only if u sure than u have no disk problems, include filesystem problems? May 06 12:53
oiaohm It might pay to download the full rpm and use that. May 06 12:53
oiaohm filesystem problems rarely cause a undetectable. May 06 12:53
oiaohm Basically nothing is magical. May 06 12:54
oiaohm Its how you manage the risk and being aware that you have the risk that X installed progroms might be damaged from the extreamally rare event. May 06 12:54
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schestowitz Weird headline in Schneier: “Security Considerations in the Design of the Human Penis” http://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv… May 06 12:55
schestowitz “I have been informed, multiple times, that sandals over socks are a revolting and unforgivable fashion sin.” http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200… May 06 12:57
schestowitz IDG advertises Windows: http://news.idg.no/cw/art.cfm?… May 06 13:00
schestowitz No Mac fans attacking this one yet? Slow day for them? http://news.idg.no/cw/art.cf… May 06 13:06
schestowitz Microsoft bought Massive just to lay off its employees: http://venturebeat.com/200… May 06 13:10
oiaohm Lot of MS staff must be praying it stops at 5000 May 06 13:14
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iwmw i suspect that there should not be Massive at all… like there should be no ads. especially in games May 06 13:23
schestowitz Microsoft’s Massive sheds off about 75% of its people: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/… May 06 13:27
schestowitz Labels Losing Money With iTunes Variable Pricing http://techdirt.com/articles/20… May 06 13:32
schestowitz What’s a “label”? :-) May 06 13:33
oiaohm Day MS shutdowns there seach engine we know they are in troubl. May 06 13:35
oiaohm trouble. May 06 13:35
schestowitz Yes May 06 13:36
schestowitz Giving up on the obsession May 06 13:36
schestowitz They could be in very deep debt had they bought Yahoo May 06 13:36
schestowitz Like $30bn in debt May 06 13:36
schestowitz And that’s BEFORE the fnancial meltdown May 06 13:36
oiaohm Exactly what information do you think that search engine spider gives them. May 06 13:36
schestowitz Personal or site-wise? May 06 13:36
schestowitz They tried Ad Centre (?) May 06 13:37
oiaohm From a PR point of view. May 06 13:37
schestowitz Now it’s being castrated (April 2009) May 06 13:37
schestowitz They needed it to spy on surfers May 06 13:37
schestowitz They also have IE7 and IE8 to spy on users May 06 13:37
schestowitz Like Google’s Toolbar May 06 13:37
schestowitz oiaohm: it’s not PR May 06 13:37
schestowitz It’s old Microsoft tacticvs May 06 13:37
oiaohm How do you think MS finds sites that make bad comments agaisnt them. May 06 13:38
schestowitz It’s the “suffocate competitor” tactic May 06 13:38
schestowitz “Tily into death spiral” or “house of cards” May 06 13:38
oiaohm Who is going to raise the eyes at a search engine spider. May 06 13:38
schestowitz If MS can steal GOogle’s revenue source then it limits Google’s ability to craql and maintain blacklists May 06 13:38
schestowitz *crawl May 06 13:38
schestowitz Google has good blacklists May 06 13:38
schestowitz I sent them some data too (Matt Cutts) May 06 13:38
schestowitz There’s loads of rubbish on the Web May 06 13:39
schestowitz If you don’t know which half (or two thirds) to flush, you’re a no-starter May 06 13:39
schestowitz oiaohm: re: “How do you think MS finds sites that make bad comments agaisnt them.” see W-E May 06 13:39
schestowitz They do this using their ‘methods’ May 06 13:39
schestowitz Like in Twitter May 06 13:39
*schestowitz gets link May 06 13:39
oiaohm W-E still has to be getting access to spider information. May 06 13:40
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/12/mi… May 06 13:40
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/25… May 06 13:40
oiaohm There are cases of them finding sites before many users visit. May 06 13:40
schestowitz The consequence: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/0… May 06 13:40
schestowitz They do lots of this for ODF now, I think. Pretending MS supports it. May 06 13:41
schestowitz They can create dummy accounts or whatever to spout out rubbish c(PR) May 06 13:41
schestowitz Twitter is FULL of rubbish May 06 13:41
schestowitz Like half the ‘users’ who make me a ‘friend’ are bots May 06 13:41
schestowitz Spammers or bots May 06 13:41
schestowitz oiaohm: like Surface May 06 13:42
schestowitz They pulled the review within less than a day May 06 13:42
schestowitz MS May 06 13:42
oiaohm Like the Surface case. May 06 13:42
schestowitz Maybe Waggener alerted them May 06 13:42
oiaohm There are many like that. May 06 13:42
schestowitz Becase that’s how it works May 06 13:42
schestowitz I’ll get you an example May 06 13:42
oiaohm Waggener is most likely getting access to MS search spider cache. May 06 13:42
schestowitz Read this: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/… May 06 13:42
schestowitz waggener edstrom ensures first Vista7 reviews are bribed for: waggener-edstrom May 06 13:43
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/… May 06 13:43
oiaohm That is only half there job. May 06 13:43
oiaohm The other half is detecting where problems are. May 06 13:44
schestowitz WE corrupts journalists: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/10/… May 06 13:44
schestowitz Or just MS in this case May 06 13:44
schestowitz Who knows May 06 13:44
oiaohm WE job is to corrupt media. May 06 13:44
schestowitz WE planted stories using Maureen Ogara May 06 13:44
schestowitz Probably for SCO too May 06 13:44
oiaohm Also monitor it. May 06 13:44
schestowitz To create fear May 06 13:44
oiaohm Nothing creates more fear in a person than the appearce of the hand of god. May 06 13:45
schestowitz MS and waggener edstrom ban reviewer from touching Vista7: waggener edstrom May 06 13:45
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/01/… May 06 13:45
schestowitz They prevented this guy from writiing about it May 06 13:45
schestowitz Why? May 06 13:45
schestowitz Cause they did intelligence May 06 13:45
oiaohm Yep May 06 13:45
schestowitz They say he wrote nagative things before May 06 13:45
schestowitz So they have dossiers May 06 13:45
schestowitz They got caught leaking dossiers May 06 13:45
schestowitz Then, they know which people to track and harrass May 06 13:46
schestowitz Mary Jo Foley told me about it May 06 13:46
schestowitz Journalists are being assigned ‘buddies’ by Microsoft May 06 13:46
schestowitz People who police you May 06 13:46
schestowitz Equivalent of some neo-Statsi May 06 13:46
oiaohm MS is not the only one in this kind of game. May 06 13:46
schestowitz I know May 06 13:46
schestowitz But show me this for other companies May 06 13:46
schestowitz You can’t May 06 13:46
schestowitz Like lobbying May 06 13:47
schestowitz Microsoft is BY FAR the dirtiest in this area May 06 13:47
schestowitz It built itself on it May 06 13:47
schestowitz Watch how much coverage they get May 06 13:47
schestowitz Compare to IBM May 06 13:47
schestowitz Soon you realise that MS is a marketing movement May 06 13:47
schestowitz Above most else May 06 13:47
oiaohm And some of MS operations exist just to hide what they are doing. May 06 13:48
schestowitz Twitter Shuts Down StatTweets < http://techdirt.com/articles… > May 06 13:48
schestowitz oiaohm: yes, covering one’s own tracks May 06 13:48
oiaohm Why else would have MS maintained a search engine department making loss after loss. May 06 13:48
schestowitz That too is PR May 06 13:48
schestowitz The PR of PR May 06 13:48
schestowitz Watching the watcher. Covering up for coverup May 06 13:48
oiaohm Also search engine losses always go up when a new OS is coming out too. May 06 13:49
oiaohm That is kinda sus. May 06 13:49
iwmw i don’t get it… does m$ have patents on opengl? May 06 13:49
schestowitz This new case discusses privacy: Supreme Court Justice Scalia Given Lesson In Internet Privacy http://techdirt.com/articles/2… May 06 13:50
schestowitz It is eerily similar to what they did to eEric Schmidt around 2006 May 06 13:50
oiaohm No Ms does not have any patents on opengl why iwmw May 06 13:50
schestowitz Do you think this case might have MS involvement? May 06 13:50
schestowitz MS overplays the “privacy” card by funding groups that attack Google May 06 13:50
schestowitz There are maybe 3 like these May 06 13:50
schestowitz Some are confirmed May 06 13:50
oiaohm Privacy card should be turned on MS. May 06 13:50
iwmw oiaohm: i just read http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/07… May 06 13:50
schestowitz Some were created by Microsoft, for a fact May 06 13:50
schestowitz oiaohm: yes, MS is worse privacy violator May 06 13:51
schestowitz Windows for example May 06 13:51
schestowitz IE May 06 13:51
schestowitz Live May 06 13:51
schestowitz MSN May 06 13:51
schestowitz Hotmail May 06 13:51
schestowitz Zune May 06 13:51
schestowitz (surveillance device) May 06 13:51
schestowitz The End Of The IPO Drought Is Coming < http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2009/05/t… >. Sounds far from plausible. The economic meltdown has not even begun yet. The nation is just borrowing more money. May 06 13:53
oiaohm That is a very old artical iwmw May 06 13:53
oiaohm MS for a while though they had. May 06 13:54
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