Revisionism with Stereotypes

Dr. Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-10 09:06:29 UTC
Modified: 2009-07-10 09:06:29 UTC

Summary: Burying the facts by discrediting their bearers, collectively

AS Microsoft turns to more aggressive tactics, independent Web sites like Groklaw provide succinct evidence of anti-competitive behaviour, especially in the realms of sub-notebooks [1, 2].

The post from one hour ago shamed the Guardian for pushing Microsoft talking points. This is expected when the likes of Microsoft Jack are put in charge of the paper's technology section [1, 2].

So despite clear evidence of Microsoft misbehaviour in sub-notebooks, the Guardian now lays issues where Microsoft wants them to be. They are trying to blame GNU/Linux, not kickbacks, intimidation, availability games and collusion with hardware companies that simply dread low-end equipment (and thus low cost). How much more transparent need it become?

Here is a complaint someone recommended to us regarding what ASUS did to GNU/Linux.

Having been on vacation for 5 weeks — with my Eee PC —, I only just became aware of your new site It's Better With Windows *), and the fact that you no longer sell netbooks with Linux. Unfortunately, you have not provided a way for your customers and potential customers to comment on this site, so I'm left with less-efficient means to publicly let you know what I'm thinking about this move. In short: You're making a big mistake!

Very recently we showed that LinuxInsider (now owned by ECT) was gently vilifying GNU/Linux, which is normal for this particular publication. We wrote about this when the same author who daemonised Mono opposition also wrote about the ASUS scandal and tried to dispel its existence using foul-mouthed people. Might it be the case that LinuxInsider is again attacking the character of GNU/Linux by putting forth stereotypes with the headline "How to Advocate for Linux (Without Coming Across as a Lunatic)"?

These headlines matter a lot and the latest example is suggestive -- insinuating that advocacy of GNU/Linux is lunacy. Remember how Microsoft evangelism formally works:

"Ideally, use of the competing technology becomes associated with mental deficiency, as in, "he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and OS/2." Just keep rubbing it in, via the press, analysts, newsgroups, whatever. Make the complete failure of the competition's technology part of the mythology of the computer industry. We want to place selection pressure on those companies and individuals that show a genetic weakness for competitors' technologies, to make the industry increasingly resistant to such unhealthy strains, over time."

--Microsoft, internal document [PDF]

As such, those who advocate GNU/Linux will see themselves coming under attempts to associate character with mental (or sometimes physical) deficiency. There are many real-world examples of this strategy.

“In layman's terms, it's a cheap shot and it is unprofessional because it only gives an illusion of balanced reporting.”On a separate note, people who want to bury our message/voice try to associate -- even falsely -- this Web site with someone who goes by the name "Mark Fink". He annoyed us too, as IRC logs have shown from the very beginning (few people bothered to fact-check beyond the cherry-picking and selective quoting from Mono proponents). "Mark Fink" is a zealous reader who makes us look bad. There are several others and it's hard to tell them off. They misrepresent and misinterpret, but they think they help. They only get quoted to discredit the Web site by association, capitalising on total lack of censorship.

So, it is not surprising that our critics who include Bruce Byfield (for the uninitiated) only bother quoting "Fink" as though it is a messenger but never quote reasonable arguments from the Web site they actually refer to. What we don't like is when defenders of Mono quote the likes of Pat Robertson (and "M$"-speak types, or hard-liners) to make Mono opposition look boorish, irrational, and aggressive. The same tactics are used in more political arenas. It makes for very weak argumentation. In layman's terms, it's a cheap shot and it is unprofessional because it only gives an illusion of balanced reporting. It symbolises weak journalism or punditry (see comments here). ⬆

Comments

aeshna23

2009-07-10 18:35:11

I hate to come back to this thread and its trolls, but I did look at David's link about Roy's letter. I'm assuming that Roy did write back to Mark Fink character without giving it much thought. It's more than a little strange the reasons that Mark Fink gave David Schlesinger for publicizing Roy's letter:

[David Schlesinger speaking] Then things got really weird. I got a private message from Mark Fink, claiming that he was scared that he'd gotten in over his head, and that Roy had in fact put him up to the whole thing. He included as evidence a digitally signed message from Roy--and I've verified the signature as being authentic--in which Roy tells Mark the following:

[omitted stuff]

I liked what you do, but try to distance yourself from the site to give it credibility. Make it look like a personal gripe while the site keeps it polite.

Exactly what would an obnoxious troll like Mark Fink have to be scared of? Someone mistaking him for having a serious argument? And Roy's reply clearly suggest that he did not Fink "up to the whole thing", but was only commenting afterwards. It seems to me that given Fink's behavior he's trying to discredit the anti-Mono movement, by being a fanatic about it, and trying to discredit Roy by publicizing his letter. I would urge Roy not to communicate with kooks in the future. The risk is just too great.

I'm rather reluctant about suggesting conspiracy theories, but sometimes conspiracies do happen. Some out of the air hunches should be aired, if only to be refuted. I think it rather interesting that an obnoxious troll like Mark Fink contacted an obnoxious troll like David Schlesinger. My hunch is that David knows who Mark Fink is and knows that Mark Fink is actually out to discredit the anti-Mono movement. I wouldn't even be surprised if David is Mark Fink.

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-10 19:00:41

One can only adore levels of paranoia this high.

Mr. Fink has disrupted a number of mailing lists to which I'm a contributor, including ubuntu-devel, desktop-devel and others, with anti-Mono rubbish, for a year or more. I've had things out with him in those contexts in the past.

So, your thesis is that I've been using an alter-ego, and planning things more than a year in advance, down to the point of exchanging flames with myself, purely so that I can send my own manager emails demanding that I be canned in order to enable myself to come here and pester Roy....?

Sorry, I'm not that convoluted, and I don't care one way or the other about Mono nearly enough to bother. If I've taken umbrage with someone, I'm extremely direct about it, as my posting here and on my blog.

I think you folks must have become so used to trolling and sockpuppetry (like Roy's other pal, "twitter") and lying and defaming that you assume that everyone behaves in the same psychotic fashion you all seem to favor here.

Jermelok

2009-07-10 19:36:17

Yeah you're that convoluted. They found you out. ou were a first class troll - now you're an also ran shill. Too bad. There were possibilities you could have been another TE.

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-10 19:39:12

Proof by blunt and unsupported assertion. Impressive.
Dominic Ringuet

2009-07-11 17:31:22

"... , you nominated yourself to become my hobby. No sane person wants to be my hobby, ..." "There are certainly better things to do, but having volunteered yourself as my personal chew-toy, ..." "...and that making an effort to disrupt their day-to-day lives is behavior that's gone well across the line into pathological."

Nothing to add.

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-11 17:46:53

Dominic, you didn't have anything to say to begin with.

Roy supports trying to create trouble for people who disagree with him by having trolls mail their managers, simply because they've expressed an opinion different than his. He compunds this by proceeding to lie through his teeth about his involvement.

All I'm doing is posting comments to his web site, an activity the web site supports. Roy is free to drop his "no censorship" policy and ban me if he likes.

Sabayon User

2009-07-10 21:21:11

Well, that's certainly one way to spin it. From the RoyBoy yes men? No surprises here.

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-10 10:09:32

But Roy, you like what Mark Fink does, you said so (in a digitally signed email).

Were you lying then, or are you lying now?

aeshna23

2009-07-10 14:01:32

I've never met Roy. Though I have no proof, I suspect he's a decent person. But Roy is not the issue here. What matters is the ideas and values which Roy and BoycottNovell promote. Since you litter this website with nasty, cheap shots, I'm guessing that you have no arguments to refute the ideas and values promoted here.
twitter

2009-07-10 14:44:58

Roy is no more responsible for Fink than he is you, Lefty.

On the other hand, it is perfectly reasonable to blame you for the behavior of people like Eet and other lunatics here to make trouble. M$ has a long history of astroturf, documented in court, the ordinary media and here by Roy. They conceal their associations with the company and act like no normal person would. Your persistent, irrational attacks on this site and Roy are open to inspection. It would not surprise me at all to learn that you are just another nym working for the same people who act like Eet.

Sabayon User

2009-07-10 17:46:32

@Roy, I take it you approve of this comment?

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-13 07:17:35

By the way, the irony of your summary, "Burying the facts by discrediting their bearers" when juxtaposed with your defamatory statements, is excruciating.

Physician, heal thyself!

eet

2009-07-10 16:57:30

>ruin and disrupt

'Ruin and disrupt' is exactly what you do with this website, Roy. You are sowing the seed of hate.

And I find it repulsive how you lash out relentlessly at others and act like a helpless victim whenever you feel exposed yourself. :p
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-10 15:31:17

Roy is no more responsible for Fink than he is you, Lefty.

Roy's very own digitally-signed email says otherwise, sockpuppet-boi. You're probably the very last person who should be whning about "nyms", but I can imagine being banninated from Digg is probably making you a wee bit testy.

Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-10 15:36:19

What are you in this Web site for, David?

I'm asking sincerely. In IRC too we've had a flood from people whose sole goal is to ruin and disrupt. Surely there are better things to do with one's time in other people's Web sites, so I'm genuinely curious.

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-10 18:46:14

What are you in this Web site for, David?

Why, I thought I'd made that clear at the outset. When you and your little minions decided it'd be fun to try to screw (to no avail, of course) with my livelihood, you nominated yourself to become my hobby. No sane person wants to be my hobby, but if you're interested in it, who am I to say no?

It was an ill-considered move on your part. I gave you a fair chance to do the right thing, but when I discovered that you were in cahoots with the Fink-thing, that pretty much sealed the deal for me.

Fact is, I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Mono. I use Tomboy and F-Stop, but if, in the normal process by which such things are done, the Ubuntu team decided to remove it, I wouldn't weep. However, I despise a liar, I loathe people who rely on defamation when they should be resorting to reason, and I reserve a very special antipathy for those who have become so monomaniacally obsessed with their particular cause that they've utterly lost sight of the fact that, while people may hold different opinions than one would wish they did, those people are still human beings, and that making an effort to disrupt their day-to-day lives is behavior that's gone well across the line into pathological.

In case you were wondering, that's you I'm referring to, Roy.

So, whenever I have a spare moment, I take a look here. If I catch you in a lie, I'll expose it. If I see you defaming someone, I'll call you on it. If I see the sort of typical shoddy thinking that passes for "reasoning" around here, I'll tear it to shreds.

There are certainly better things to do, but having volunteered yourself as my personal chew-toy, I'm more than happy to indulge you.

Don't like it? Feel free to write the President of the Internet.

aeshna23

2009-07-10 19:11:04

You sound like one angry unhappy human being. Have you considered getting off the computer and making friends? If you do, here's a tip. You have to be nice to people for them to like you.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-10 19:18:05

I now see him attacking RMS too. At least his targets are consistent.

A friend has just mailed me this:

This tops it: Your groupie Schlesinger:

http://opensourcetogo.blogspot.com/2009/07/emailing-richard-stallman.html http://opensourcetogo.blogspot.com/2009/07/good-gcds-beginning-with-significant.html

What would Dr Freud tell us about the sexual connotations of GNOME?

How nice of him to post portions of text/E-mail to daemonise people whom he disagrees with (along with some storyline). I guess that Schlesinger's roots at Apple are still showing.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-10 19:29:16

I guess Roy needs to learn to read. Stallman's idea of "humor" is exactly the sort of thing that keeps the ratio of women to men at 1 to 20, and he badly needed to be called on it, something which, unaccountably, no one has ever done before.

No one is above criticism. Not me, and not Stallman. I work very hard to help make free and open source development open to anyone who wants to participate, regardless of their gender, religion, race or whatever. Stallman's "Saint IGNUcious" routine was offensive to many, many people in the audience here at the Gran Canaria Desktop Summit. The most positive thing any woman I spoke to had to say about it was that it made her "very uncomfortable".

There's a big elephant in the room, and it was well past the time that someone said something about it.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-10 19:37:12

You sound like one angry unhappy human being. Have you considered getting off the computer and making friends? If you do, here’s a tip. You have to be nice to people for them to like you.

That's actually the funniest thing I've ever seen posted on this site.

I'm here in Gran Canaria, enjoying one of the most beautiful places in the world, hanging out with literally hundreds of folks whom I consider my friends and who consider me to be one of theirs. I've had a terrific week, and my only complaints are a) that I'm tired from the back-to-back parties we had earlier in the week, b) that my voice is still a little hoarse from doing the vocals for our ad hoc pick-up band, "The Screaming Macaques", and c) that I underestimated the strength of the sun here and got a pretty good burn on my forearms.

So, that'd put your batting average at zero. Par for the course on this site. But thanks for the laugh!
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-11 15:42:21

Just to be clear, Roy, since you obviously object to my postings regarding Richard Stallman's comments during his keynote at the Gran Canaria Desktop Summit, would it be safe to say that you support marginalizing women and other similar behaviors which drive them away from participation in free and open source software development and keep the ratio of men to women at roughly 20 to 1?

You're going to need to pick one or the other. Either you're part of the solution here, or you're part of the problem. I'm very curious to hear where you stand on this.

SeemsToMe

2009-07-10 16:07:22

It seems to me Roy, that you have been caught lying with a PGP signed message.

Now, this is important because you *tried* to get out of the mess hours before by claiming you did not know the person in question.

Why is this relevant? Well, because this site mixes facts with a bag of lies.

So folks like Lefty are keeping you on check.
G. Michaels

2009-07-12 10:52:20

@David, don't fall into Roy's clever little thread drift game, which is another one of his omg-i'm-so-cornered tactics. While he might very well be incensed about your exchange with Stallman (and given that he considers the guy to be a deity, that's not saying much), and the beginning of that IRC log fragment he posted might be about that, the rest is just libelous speculative tripe about you inventing the Mark Fink episode to make him look bad, plus some of the usual clever "he might work for Microsoft" idiocy that's par for the course in the BoycottLair.

By the way, just in case Roy posting that IRC log isn't enough, if you require definitive proof of this "twitter" person's involvement at an editorial level with BN, as well as his meatspace identity, don't hesitate to contact me. My email address is on my piddly website.

jermerlok

2009-07-12 17:30:10

@Geraldine Michaels: You having fun being an instigator?

joo

2009-07-12 17:35:03

Says the guy who calls a man named Gordon "Geraldine".

jermerlok

2009-07-12 17:37:17

Sorry. Gordon it is.

eet

2009-07-12 10:09:04

For anyone interested: We already had that situation: Roy was on the brink of being sued for personal libel by a member of the GNOME board. When he realized he couldn't get out of it by wriggling, as he does usually, he very, very demurely shrank back from all his claims. As soon as real life barges in on his make-belief, virtual, paranoid world, he is just scared.

Yes, it was Jeff and Pia Waugh whom he accused of being bribed by Micrososft back then. Jeff is a very nice guy and really has to be driven to threat someone with a lawsuit, so he didn't follow it through.

I am thankful that David seem ready to do us all a favour and go through with it.

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 14:24:11

I know Jeff well. I'm not remotely as nice a guy as he is.

Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 15:34:54

Yes, and he can resolve disputes without resorting to legal means. We spoke on the phone.

Why don't you come to IRC (or give me your phone number) so that we can talk things through? The culprit in this whole thing is somehow being left off the hook ("Fink") when two of his victims waste each other's time arguing. It must be funny to him.

eet

2009-07-12 16:01:08

LOL. Wriggle, wriggle, weep...
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 17:12:10

Why don't you blow it out your ear, Roy?

With the high level of ethical behavior you've shown to date, you want me to give you my _phone number_? You must think I'm as dumb as you act. No, I don't need my contact information shared around with your sockpuppet pals.

By the way, I've seen the unedited IRC log. "Scummy man", hm?
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-13 07:11:47

Okay, Roy, I'm getting onto my flight home. If I don't see that apology and retraction by the time I get there, I'll be contacting legal counsel as well as anyone else whom i've seen defamed on this site.

This isn't about Fink, it's about your shoddy and libellous "reporting", so don't try that dodge. And don't suck up to me with nonsense about "let's reason together, so give me your phone number". You want to talk, you can give me yours. Don't try to paint defamatory statements as "editorials", after the fact. You post one thing here and say completely the converse in IRC, making it clear that you're duplicitous and not to be trusted. You may not enjoy what I say, but at least I have the virtue of consistency.

So, it's up to you, Roy. You can dig in your heels if you like, but if you do, count on me to do everything in my power to get it corrected to my satisfaction. And if that means taking it out of your hide, so be it.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-13 07:15:41

I'll post a retraction/clarification now, based on our discussion. I hope you'll find it satisfactory.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-13 07:32:38

I've just posted a correction. Please let me know if it requires modification.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-13 08:22:38

No, Roy, it's not satisfactory, since you neither retract the statements I objected to, nor do you apologize, nor do you even take any responsibility for any of this, attempting to foist the blame off on "some readers".

Since you evidently need to be led by the nose here, the following is what you need to say:

"I made statements that Mr. Schlesinger was attacking Richard Stallman over disagreements about Mono, rather than over Mr. Stallman's sexist remarks at the Gran Canaria Desktop Summit, as well as suggesting that he used false names. This was wrong of me. I retract these statements unreservedly and offer Mr. Schlesinger a full apology for having made them. I will endeavor to avoid making such irresponsible statements in the future."

if you want to settle this someplace other than inside a courtroom, that's how you're going to do it, Roy.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-13 08:28:23

I agree with the statement above and I'll add it the post.
eet

2009-07-13 12:22:19

"I will endeavor to avoid making such irresponsible statements in the future."

...and wouldn't we all like to believe (but can not) believe that.

Note: comment has been flagged for arriving from an incarnation of a known (eet), pseudonymous, forever-nymshifting, abusive Internet troll that posts from open proxies and relays around the world.

Mike Brown

2009-07-10 22:54:21

>> This is expected when the likes of Microsoft Jack >> are put in charge of the paper’s technology section

Microsoft Jack is not in charge of the Guardian's Technology section, Roy. Charles Arthur is.

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-11 07:22:38

Oh, don't confuse Roy with things like facts, Mike.

eet

2009-07-11 09:51:13

It is SO hilarious. There we have Roy, constantly defaming people whose opinions differ from his own, complaining about defamation... Roy not only defames people, without hard evidence, in the worst ways, tries to ruin their lives by working to get them fired, but when someone catches him with his hand in the cookie-jar (--> Fink) he accuses that person (Lefty) of trying to ruin other people lives and websites _without_reason!

This is about the lowest personal character I've come across in the FOSS community. And I sincerely don't understand that some ppl still manage to uphold their delusion that Roy and his website should be seen as merited in any way. It's a pith-hole full of snakes (Roy and his minions), that's what it is.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-11 15:44:02

Oh, and while we're at it, please point out specifically where I "demonized" Stallman. I reported the facts, and while I understand that's a notion with which you're not especially familiar, I'd be curious to know just what you're talking about here.
G. Michaels

2009-07-12 02:38:02

Ah, I see my comments are receiving special moderation now. Even if they contain a single link. You don't delete anything... right, you just sort of hold 'em for a few hours to avoid having them add to the discussion. Very nice.

joo

2009-07-12 04:10:34

What did he delete?

G. Michaels

2009-07-12 04:54:52

Well I posted two more comments since the one that's not showing up, so I'll take back my claim that I'm being singled out somehow. Maybe it was the amount of text in the comment rather than the number of links (I try to keep those to a max of two always). So it probably tripped the spam filter.

I can sympathize with the fight against spam, but posting something and not seeing it show up is not exactly encouraging.

Not difficult to fall into conspiracy theory mode here :)
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 08:03:47

Nothing was deleted. Akismet put it in moderation and I check the queue twice a day. It's approved now.

G. Michaels

2009-07-12 02:31:30

“CyberPhoenix” is another that comes to mind. It’s inciting people against us. And look at how it’s all presented; the innocent observers think these people run the site.

I don't believe that's quite the case. You see, I've been spending some time looking at this guy's posting patterns on Digg and Reddit (although his Digg account was recently deleted, second one so far). I think you're lying through your proverbial teeth. For a change... right.

For the uninitiated, CyberPhoenix/AstralKnight are accounts that are used to troll and spam Digg, Reddit, Mixx, Propeller and who knows how many other sites. I believe this person to also be the mythic "Mark Fink". although so far I have no definitive proof of that, so I might be wrong about that particular nym. This same person uses the "DiamindWakizashi" nym to post comments here exclusively.

(I'll keep the links to a minimum, use Google)

Now, since both of his Digg accounts are gone, we'll have to go by the others. If you see his Mixx page under the CyberPhoenix nym, all (and I mean *all*) his submissions point to BoycottNovell. On Reddit, under the AstralKnight nym, if you go back a few months you see an interesting progression. First, all the submissions are back to this blog. Then later he starts mirroring things posted here. E.g, Roy posts about some story about X with a primary backing link, AstralKnight then posts *that* link about X instead of just linking to BN. Using basically the same wording and slant Roy gives it. On the same day, etc. This goes on for a few weeks, and then all of the sudden he switches to submitting only links to Roy's crapflood posts on comp.os.linux.advocacy. Here's a screenshot of his activity in the past few hours. Every single one of those submissions point to a COLA post by Roy Schestowitz.

This is interesting. It's difficult to imagine someone like AstralKnight suddenly coming up with that brilliant idea by himself. He still gets the "message" out, but he cannot be accused of spamming, technically, because his submissions don't point directly to BN, which is a blog.

Now, this being the fulcrum of clever conspiracy theories, I can't help but think that, in a parallel to the Fink episode, AstralKnight/CyberPhoenix/DiamondWakizashi is getting some gentle guidance from the person(s) who most benefit from his spamming. A useful idiot, if you will. And said persons are "keeping it polite", as they say.

As I'm still unable to definitely prove a connection with Fink, I figured I'd present this as a bit of tantalizing insight into how Schestowitz' SLOG (as he calls it) progresses in the face of mounting setbacks for him and his cadre, with the "Slated" persona moving the strings behind the curtain in some cases.

Ideally, use of [Microsoft products] becomes associated with mental deficiency, as in, “he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and [Microsoft].” Just keep rubbing it in, via the [web sites, blogs], newsgroups, whatever. Make the complete failure of the competition’s technology part of the mythology of the computer industry. We want to place selection pressure on those companies and individuals that show a genetic weakness for competitors’ technologies, to make the industry increasingly resistant to such unhealthy strains, over time.

You know that bit don't you Roy? Yes you do.

joo

2009-07-12 15:23:11

He's made another Digg account under the name NastyMicrosoft.
joo

2009-07-12 15:24:09

NastyMicrosoft is on Reddit as well.

G. Michaels

2009-07-14 07:36:37

Yes indeed, that's him as well. Digg, Reddit and Twitter (the service). Interesting, isn't it? I also found another curious one on FSdaily called "komrad".

It's fascinating how this piddly blog has so many anonymous ardent supporters with strikingly similar behavior patterns. Just fascinating.

Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-11 23:19:17

From what I can gather, you're trying to set up and trip up people whom you don't like (such as RMS) and you might be using fake names to pretext.

trmanco	http://natanyellin.com/2009/07/11/regarding-richard-stallman/	Jul 11 21:14
twitter	more of that stupid RMS is a sexist crap?	Jul 11 21:18
trmanco	yeah	Jul 11 21:19
twitter	I suppose that's all the mono people have, mudslinging.	Jul 11 21:19
twitter	It's going to go over about as well as the FU RMS from a week ago.	Jul 11 21:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] why_google_chrome_os_will_turn_gnu_linux_desktop_winner: http://is.gd/1v4De		Jul 11 21:25
schestowitz	"Shame on you, Stallman."	Jul 11 21:29
schestowitz	How 'dare' RMS say the truth about Mono?	Jul 11 21:29
schestowitz	See what the Microsoft fans do?	Jul 11 21:29
schestowitz	That "Lefty" guy is hardly a Linux guy	Jul 11 21:30
schestowitz	IIRC he uses a Mac and he worked for Apple	Jul 11 21:30
schestowitz	Just shows you how Trojanning works	Jul 11 21:30
twitter	Lefty works for a company called ACCESS right now. Does he still use a Mac?	Jul 11 21:31
twitter	I put as much as I could find in here last night.	Jul 11 21:31
*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@87.113.136.180) has joined #boycottnovell		Jul 11 21:32
schestowitz	That "Lefty" guy is hardly a Linux guy and he started this attack on RMS (and he trolls BN with hundreds of derogatory comments).	Jul 11 21:34
trmanco	http://news.cnet.com/8301-19882_3-10284282-250.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20	Jul 11 21:34
schestowitz	I didn't follow the Ubuntu mailing lists	Jul 11 21:34
schestowitz	But I wonder what led that "Fink" guy to attacking him	Jul 11 21:34
schestowitz	Can anyone check why?	Jul 11 21:34
schestowitz	IIRC he uses a Mac and he sure worked for Apple. He said something about Apple in the comments... so don't expect love for RMS. ACCESS is proprietary Linux AFAIK	Jul 11 21:36
schestowitz	The whole DRM party on Linux... like Android. The FSF is no fan of that.	Jul 11 21:36
twitter	ACCESS's main thing is software for mobile phones. When the browser on your cell phone is not as good as the free browsers you are used to, access may be why.	Jul 11 21:39
twitter	They have done browsers for Treo too.	Jul 11 21:39
twitter	ie, Palm OS.	Jul 11 21:39
twitter	I'm not ready to blame ACCESS or even the person by the same name for Lefty's comments.	Jul 11 21:39
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat")		Jul 11 21:50
twitter	I'll waste some time looking up "Mark Fink" in ubuntu.	Jul 11 22:04
twitter	Lefty's blogs all seem to attract 100 comments, as if they were written by sockpuppet factories in China.	Jul 11 22:05
twitter	I'm sure the search will be thick.	Jul 11 22:05
twitter	Here we have 117 hits http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=site%3Aubuntu.com+%22Mark+Fink%22&aq=f&oq=&aqi=	Jul 11 22:05
twitter	I don't see anything about Gnome development on the top.	Jul 11 22:06
twitter	Hmmm, ACCESS again https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008548.html	Jul 11 22:08
twitter	completely incoherent	Jul 11 22:09
twitter	but I have to agree, Lefty is a douchebag.	Jul 11 22:13
twitter	big troll thread https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/thread.html#8516	Jul 11 22:14
twitter	Lefty has been making trouble there too https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008517.html	Jul 11 22:18
twitter	ah ha, the original Mark Fink post. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008447.html	Jul 11 22:19
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twitter	I'm looking at the Mark Fink posts. Basically looks like a straw man to beat on BN and Roy.	Jul 11 22:41
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.69.173) has joined #boycottnovell		Jul 11 22:42
*Balrog (n=Balrog@pool-173-59-68-144.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Jul 11 22:43
schestowitz	Yes, looks bad.	Jul 11 22:44
*Balrog has quit (Client Quit)		Jul 11 22:44
schestowitz	I thought about joining the discussion when I first saw it	Jul 11 22:45
schestowitz	To distance myself from that guy or clarify at least	Jul 11 22:45
_Hicham_	was it a troll discussion schestowitz ?	Jul 11 22:45
schestowitz	It looked bad since the very first message. Looked bad for the site and for me. And people were angered, not persuaded	Jul 11 22:46
schestowitz	_Hicham_: you judge	Jul 11 22:46
schestowitz	I got Palined	Jul 11 22:46
twitter	I take it back, he's not so bad.	Jul 11 22:46
twitter	Certainly nothing like that ass Lefty made out.	Jul 11 22:46
_Hicham_	ignoring twitter	Jul 11 22:47
_Hicham_	schestowitz : who was that guy?	Jul 11 22:48
schestowitz	Which one?	Jul 11 22:49
schestowitz	I think that "Fink" is fake	Jul 11 22:49
schestowitz	Someone told me what the name may mean	Jul 11 22:50
ThistleWeb	bat fink?	Jul 11 22:50
twitter	Yes, the Fink looks fake.	Jul 11 22:51
twitter	It's hard to tell.	Jul 11 22:51
twitter	One thing both Fink and Lefty's blog have in common are giant troll threads with both of them in it.	Jul 11 22:51
twitter	That might tell you something.	Jul 11 22:51
twitter	We know Lefty is some kind of troll for his attack on RMS, a signature YHBT.	Jul 11 22:53
twitter	Basically, the whole thing has all the hallmarks of a Slashdot troll thread.	Jul 11 22:53
twitter	I've read 17 comments by this Fink character. I did not see any of the personal attack stuff Lefty talked about.	Jul 11 22:54
twitter	Mostly, I saw a bunch of "I hate BN and Roy" in the responses.	Jul 11 22:54
twitter	That too is a common sockpuppet attack. They pretend to argue but they all hate something in common.	Jul 11 22:55
twitter	They drown out reasonable conversation and poison the well with their bullshit.	Jul 11 22:56
*silentivm (n=renan@189.58.202.44.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br) has joined #boycottnovell		Jul 11 22:57
macabe_	"Fink" is slang for another slang term "stoolie" or "stool pidgeon"	Jul 11 22:57
twitter	In this case, they filled up the developer lists with 80 to 100 long troll posts filled with personal invective and crap instead of reasonable discussion.	Jul 11 22:58
twitter	We can be sure the ubuntu people are turned off by the whole thing.	Jul 11 22:59
twitter	and BN is libeled	Jul 11 22:59
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twitter	Lefty only shows up in the "shameful censoring of mono opposition" here. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/author.html#8447	Jul 11 23:00
twitter	In fact, Lefty does not show up anywhere all year except a couple of GPL (troll) posts in February. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-February/007031.html	Jul 11 23:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] looking for volunteers to legitimise software patents = FAIL http://ping.fm/n1QcP		Jul 11 23:09
schestowitz	Trolls: http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/07/linux_not_for_everyone.php?utm_source=mostactive	Jul 11 23:14
schestowitz	Co-ops ensure ubuntu http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1027751	Jul 11 23:14
twitter	Ah, if we go back a year we find Lefty right next to Shuttleworth in a June 2008 thread about "Making Deals with M$"	Jul 11 23:15
twitter	It seems that Lefty shows up for ugly threads that deal with M$.	Jul 11 23:16
twitter	ah ha, also libel for BN https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-June/004469.html	Jul 11 23:17
*Balrog (n=Balrog@pool-173-59-68-144.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Jul 11 23:20
twitter	does not seem to understand free software https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-June/004474.html	Jul 11 23:20
twitter	free means you can do things the way you want.	Jul 11 23:21
twitter	Ah, FUD control of value. Shuttleworth explicitly denies that there's any Ubuntu codec deal with M$ https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-June/004510.html	Jul 11 23:22
twitter	->" There is (again) absolutely no truth to the rumour that Canonical has done a deal with Microsoft for access to codecs - either in return for money, or for some other quid-pro-quo."	Jul 11 23:22
twitter	unfortunately, Shuttleworth thinks M$ and Canonical can have shared interests, but that's not what I'm researching here.	Jul 11 23:26
twitter	Based on a years worth of Ubuntu developer list readings, I can say that Lefty is a participant in epic troll treads once a year.	Jul 11 23:27
twitter	I think his timing has something to do with Ubuntu's release schedule - Don't they put out a stable release in September?	Jul 11 23:28
schestowitz	"> Maybe Roy should make a site www.boycottubuntu.com too.	Jul 11 23:32
schestowitz	"	Jul 11 23:32
schestowitz	It looks like intentional provocation	Jul 11 23:33
schestowitz	Posting such tripe in a Ubuntu developers list	Jul 11 23:33
schestowitz	And he speaks as though he represents us or something	Jul 11 23:33
twitter	It's all fake.	Jul 11 23:34
twitter	Here's the last piece of the puzzle, a complete mirror troll - casting M$ methods onto the free software community, http://opensourcetogo.blogspot.com/2009/06/when-zeal-becomes-zealotry-tawdry-tale.html	Jul 11 23:34
twitter	He claims Fink contacted his employer, the kind of thing M$ does as a matter of routine.	Jul 11 23:35
twitter	Then he goes on to claim that nyms polluting the list are there because they are afraid of Fink.	Jul 11 23:36
schestowitz	I think it's maybe an agent provocateur	Jul 11 23:36
schestowitz	Mind you, I contacted the "Fink" address because "lefty" told me to	Jul 11 23:36
schestowitz	I wasn't going to be in touch with that thing	Jul 11 23:37
schestowitz	He said that this guy harassed him and then told me to mail him	Jul 11 23:37
schestowitz	Then he got a copy of my message to him	Jul 11 23:37
twitter	Lefty is lying -> " Roy was contrite, but equivocally so, I felt. He claimed he'd never heard of Mark Fink before that very day. He apologized, but refused to post a specific disclaimer about the site not being associated with Mr. Fink or his actions."	Jul 11 23:37
twitter	I've seen you say Fink has nothing to do with you several times.	Jul 11 23:37
schestowitz	Will ChromeOS make Google more loved or hated in open source world? < http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=4477 >	Jul 11 23:38
schestowitz	It's too far fetched to assume Lefty is Fink	Jul 11 23:39
twitter	The only reasonable conclusion we can draw from this is that	Jul 11 23:39
schestowitz	And that the whole thing was a setup	Jul 11 23:39
twitter	no shit.	Jul 11 23:39
macabe_	IMO anything Roy would've done was not going to stop him	Jul 11 23:39
schestowitz	Goodbye Ubuntu 6.06 LTS Desktop Edition < http://news.softpedia.com/news/Goodbye-Ubuntu-6-06-LTS-Desktop-Edition-116229.shtml >	Jul 11 23:39
twitter	How else would Lefty get Fink's signed message, if indeed that's your message.	Jul 11 23:39
schestowitz	Hm.....	Jul 11 23:39
schestowitz	Why really was it signed?	Jul 11 23:40
schestowitz	If you forward a signed message or reply to it, does it maintain the signature blocks?	Jul 11 23:40
schestowitz	From what I got it seemed like Lefty was threatening to sue "Fink"	Jul 11 23:40
schestowitz	The person who posted threats against Amanda from the Linux Foundation in BN comments	Jul 11 23:41
twitter	Lefty talks about suing people a lot.	Jul 11 23:41
schestowitz	Lefty has connections with thre LF	Jul 11 23:41
twitter	so he says.	Jul 11 23:41
schestowitz	So the paranoid might say that someone is trying to turn the LF against BN as well	Jul 11 23:41
schestowitz	Temperamental	Jul 11 23:42
twitter	The letter is not dated, so Lefty presents the chronology any way he likes.	Jul 11 23:42
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schestowitz	And omits stuff	Jul 11 23:44
twitter	I'm sure. The man is a liar.	Jul 11 23:45
schestowitz	That would make him also a hypocrite	Jul 11 23:45
schestowitz	But never mind that	Jul 11 23:45
twitter	he tries to make himself look like an "Open Source" advocate, but he works for a non free software company.	Jul 11 23:46
schestowitz	Let's leave it at that. Remember it is HIM who dragged me into it.	Jul 11 23:46
twitter	and trashes on RMS.	Jul 11 23:46
twitter	If that's your letter, you might want to publish the entire thing.	Jul 11 23:46
twitter	If it's not, you need to disclaim it.	Jul 11 23:46
schestowitz	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/10/ebay_and_shill_bidding/ (Net sleuth calls eBay on carpet over shill bidding)	Jul 11 23:47
twitter	I'm relatively sure Fink and Lefty are nyms for the same troll.	Jul 11 23:47
schestowitz	"How can you be sure the price of your latest eBay buy wasn't shamelessly inflated by some faceless shill bidder?" It's not just an ebay issue.	Jul 11 23:47
schestowitz	twitter: I don't want to carry on discussion with this scummy man. it's him who keeps trolling BN for attention.	Jul 11 23:47
twitter	yes, he's using your site's ranking to inflate his own blog.	Jul 11 23:48
schestowitz	No-one paid attention to him, so he started provoking those who brought him attention	Jul 11 23:49
twitter	I think the whole thing was a set up from the start.	Jul 11 23:49
schestowitz	Remember: it is HIM who told me to mail that Fink E-mail address and it is him who pulled stuff I sent to that address and published portions	Jul 11 23:49
schestowitz	Like pretexting	Jul 11 23:49
twitter	he created the thing from start to finish	Jul 11 23:50
twitter	"Roy is destroying a free software advocate like me, trying to get me fired" ....	Jul 11 23:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Orange UK drops DRM < http://ping.fm/CYePi >. Apple still support DRM in many areas.		Jul 11 23:51
schestowitz	Is that a real quote?	Jul 11 23:51
twitter	No, I made it up, but that's basically what he says.	Jul 11 23:51
schestowitz	Well, that's the message he's trying to convey without proof anyway	Jul 11 23:51
twitter	He says this, " Mark and Roy and their friends are staking out, that someone who disagrees with you is fair game for victimization"	Jul 11 23:51
twitter	Funny, I thought one of the recurring themes here was how awful the M$ people are for doing just that.	Jul 11 23:52
twitter	Peter Guttman, Peter Quinn, Tim Bray and so on and so forth.	Jul 11 23:52
twitter	The guy who ran Boycott Microsoft	Jul 11 23:53
twitter	Like I said, this is a mirror troll. M$ tarring opposition with the worst of their own unethical conduct.	Jul 11 23:54

Shane Coyle

2009-07-12 00:59:32

wow; just... wow.

you guys are nuts.

Mr. Lefty, for any part that you could consider me responsible for any of this (I started this site some time ago), I apologize. This was never what I intended.

Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 01:09:17

How come you don't comment on the false accusations from "Lefty"?

Shane Coyle

2009-07-12 01:35:27

Because I'm a nymshift of his, that he established all those years ago in order to set up this one comment.

Seriously, I've only been a cursory observer of all of this, but that last exchange - if I understood it right, was that the prevailing theory is that Mr Lefty invented Fink, peppered the site for some time with comments that cast a bad light on BN, then spammed his own mailing lists, emailed his own boss and tricked Roy into sending a PGP-signed email condoning the actions of the invented Mr. Fink, all in an effort to discredit BN.

Seems a bit out there, am I off-base? I admit, I am only an occasional visitor here, so I can certainly have missed something.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 01:44:37

No, that's the hypothesis brought forth by two people, but I reject it because I spoke to "Lefty" privately. It remains possible (IMHO) that "Fink" is some outsider who disparages BN. There are all sorts of names I can't keep track of and "Fink" is not alone with this zealotry that harms us. "CyberPhoenix" is another that comes to mind. It's inciting people against us. And look at how it's all presented; the innocent observers think these people run the site. Groklaw used to have similar issues (also pretexting and spying), so I should never have taken Lefty's advice (contacting "Fink"). He was there to cause trouble to everyone.
Andrew Macabe

2009-07-12 02:12:51

@Shane: I do may not agree with Roy on some things and I do agree on others. BN helps with perpective, that is, it gives you another point of view and you weigh it against others.

Yet, that doesn't give me the right to come into someone's soapbox and be critical to the point of being abusive. Many things could be ironed out also by private email or pm at IRC.

Lefty's nitpicking every little thing Roy does is not going to serve win him any credibility, it will only make him look stuffy and arrogant and maybe create open season for the abuse (judging from Jermelok's unsubstantiated comments-sounds like a comedian in training).

When Lefty said to disavow any relationship with Fink publicly, Roy did, but he said "too late should've done it sooner". That attitude leaves suspicion in place, i.e. no matter what Roy would've done, it would not have been enough.
G. Michaels

2009-07-12 04:43:45

No, that’s the hypothesis brought forth by two people, but I reject it

You reject it yet you posted it here. You prefaced it with this:

From what I can gather, you’re trying to set up and trip up people whom you don’t like (such as RMS) and you might be using fake names to pretext.

My reading comprehension is off on weekends sometimes, but it seems to me that your intention was to accuse David of something and you pasted your IRC log to back up that accusation.

By the way, I don't see how you can expect anyone to trust your friend "twitter" any further than they can throw him. As with other instances where he has lied, attacked and smeared people here and elsewhere on your behalf, and lacking evidence of you ever correcting or publicly disavowing his comments and actions (where in fact there's plenty of evidence for the exact opposite), one has to conclude that you approve of everything he says and does here. Starting with the fact that you actually had the gall to post that.

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 03:53:47

I don't hold you responsible here, Shane, this seems to be all on Roy's doorstep. By the way, Roy, when you talk to your legal counsel, ask what the ramifications of portraying yourself as a "journalist" are with regard to all this.
eet

2009-07-12 10:11:21

Shane has honour. I wish he had remained the main editor of this website. It could have been a forum for serious debate and a boon to the community.

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 03:26:15

Okay, Roy, you want to be very careful here. The defamation laws in the UK are very friendly to the defamed. I'm on my way to the airport to head home from Gran Canaria now, but I'd like to see a full retraction and a full apology by the time I make it home. That gives you a few hours less than a day to consider your next move.

I'd suggest that you make this consideration a very careful one. If you have legal counsel, this would be a good moment to avail yourself of it.

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 03:32:36

Oh, and that retraction and apology needs to be right on the front page, not buried somewhere, and it needs to stay up there for, let's say, a week, minimum.

Thanks in advance for your speedy cooperation.

Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 08:01:31

You are the one falsely accusing me.

Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 08:06:40

I shall wait for an apology from you for suggesting -- despite contrary proof -- that I had something to do with that "Fink" guy. Because I didn't.

You seem to be better at threatening than reasoning.

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 08:21:53

Call your lawyer, Roy. The ice you're treading on is getting a lot thinner. If you force me to follow through on this, I will ask the court to transfer this domain to me, at which point I might fill it with photos of kittens saying, "I (heart) Mono". I will additionally seek both my court costs and damages commensurate with the "millions of hits a day" which you claim this site receives.

As I said, you want to give this all very careful consideration, and you're off to a pretty poor start.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 08:24:51

From the very start of this whole thing I've been a victim, accused of things I had nothing to do with because some crazed reader. So now you intimidate because you don't like your scapegoat?
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 08:53:32

No, Roy. Now I object, strenuously, to you defamatory statements about me. My reputation is my livelihood, and I'm not putting up with being smeared by the likes of you. Quit playing the victim here, no one held a gun to your head and forced you to libel me.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 08:57:55

Likewise. I first had that zealot harm the reputation of this site and then I had you too doing it by making bogus accusations. How does one prove not being associated with someone? It's like trying to prove the inexistence of something (say a God) when the burden of proof in on the other side. I've told you the truth all along, as well as I was aware because memory does not always serve (for example, I didn't remember "Fink" leaving comments here).

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 08:14:49

Oh, Roy: while we're batting around the subject of your flagrant disregard for the truth, I did _not_ "tell you" to contact Mark Fink. You _asked_ me whether I wanted you to do so, and I specifically told you that I didn't care, that he was "more your problem than mine". A simple review of the comments will substantiate that.

You may be interested to learn that, in circumstances such as we find ourselves, "journalists" (soi disant) are held to a much higher standard of truthfulness than an ordinary Joe on the street.

Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 08:20:03

Oh, Roy: while we’re batting around the subject of your flagrant disregard for the truth, I did _not_ “tell you” to contact Mark Fink.

How else could I do anything to help? The way I remember it, you asked me to try and stop this guy. I didn't even know what to say.

Also watch the IRC channel logs to see our first reactions to what this guy did in the Ubuntu mailing list (trmanco was the first person who noticed). We never liked it because it was damaging to us and I thought about posting to the mailing list to dissociating myself from it.

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 08:24:43

That's all completely immaterial, sonny. I didn't ask you to help, and to say that you contacted him at my urging or instigation is (another) outright, bald-faced lie.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 08:28:12

Let me look at that first thread again (when you came here). The way I remember it you came here asking for a way to stop the troublemaker (whom I have nothing to do with, despite your accusations). Maybe I don't remember this correctly, so let me recheck what you wrote.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 08:32:09

I've just found the thread and you are right. I remembered incorrectly.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 08:47:02

Gosh, really? Imagine that! You're one heckuva "journalist", Roy.

Full retraction. Full apology. On the front page. For one week, minimum.

By _tomorrow_. Do not make the error of thinking I'm just kidding around here: I am in complete earnest.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 08:52:25

You wrongly accuse me, then you constantly harass me, and then -- to top it all off -- you threaten to sue (yeah, like SCO sued IBM for 'stolen' code to just trouble IBM with frivolous lawsuits).

Apology for what? For being tricked into flames? I'd gladly retract the statement which was based on wrong recollection -- that you asked me to contact "Fink". Be specific what you want me to clarify so that we can both set the record straight once and for all. The guilty party is not even here -- it's the person who started this whole mess by flaming Ubuntu.

I think we would both benefit by laying out this story correctly, both it takes collaboration. I can't read minds.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 08:57:21

Roy, you've libelled me in this very entry. You libel me further by posting that IRC log. As editor of this "journalistic" site, you are wholly responsible for its content.

Fix this, or you will force me to fix it.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 08:59:53

Let me know what in the post you think is incorrect and I will happily post a correction. For the comments I have less time for fact-checking (IRC too, obviously).
G. Michaels

2009-07-12 09:10:28

yeah, like SCO sued IBM for ’stolen’ code to just trouble IBM with frivolous lawsuits

Focus Roy, this is real life, not your make-believe fairy world of "evangelism" and opinionated idiocy on your chat room that turns magically into fact just because you want it to.

I recommend taking Schlesinger seriously at this point, if that has not crossed your mind by now.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 09:51:10

I'm losing patience, Roy. You're a grad student, playing dumb is unbecoming. The following statement is libellous:

From what I can gather, you’re trying to set up and trip up people whom you don’t like (such as RMS) and you might be using fake names to pretext

The content of the IRC chat is likewise libellous. I demand a full retraction and a full apology, as I've described to you. And get it right the first time, you won't get a "do-over". If you're unclear on what this entails, call a lawyer.

I'm through discussing this with you. It's your move now, Roy.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 10:09:57

Let's get this straight. You accuse me wrongly, then abuse me, then you cherry-pick opinions from blog comments and threaten to sue?

Is that right?

My interpretation of what you did with RMS still stands. It is my opinion that you do not like RMS because of his views on software, so you went quote-mining (so-to-speak) to publish a smear. That's my opinion which I expressed in a comment. Don't like it? That's called "debate".
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 10:26:15

It's not stated as am opinion, Roy, it's based on "what you gathered." Remember, you're a "journalist" and the editor of this site. When you post something, if it's not clearly identified as an editorial, that makes it reporting. Since you, the "journalist"/editor posted those statements, you're standing behind them as being factual.

Too bad you seem unfamiliar with the law here.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 10:30:34

The facts seem to support the claim that you disagree with RMS' philosophy. Is this correct or not correct?

My opinion, which is based on intuition, is that you sought to discredit RMS (e.g. using "sexism") because of his views on software.

Without expression of opinions we would still believe the Sun revolves around the Earth.
Shane Coyle

2009-07-12 10:43:05

Without expression of opinions we would still believe the Sun revolves around the Earth.

Well, without some reproducible mathematical and scientific experiments and the subsequent proof, I'd still be unswayed...

I think the easiest way to explain this is that RMS doesn't need Mr Lefty's help in looking foolish, he does a great job on his own.

His comments were inappropriate, insensitive and sexist, he needs to learn that he is the spokesperson for his movement and as such should refrain from alienating entire groups of potential supporters.

As a public speaker, he should (in my opinion) keep all of the 3x5 cards that have any off-color jokes (race, sex, gender, culture, nationalism, politics) in the inner pocket of his dashiki until cocktail hour after the conference.

Just my $0.02
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 10:53:18

His comments were inappropriate, insensitive and sexist, he needs to learn that he is the spokesperson for his movement and as such should refrain from alienating entire groups of potential supporters.

Yes, he is very outspoken; disagreements will always crop up where expression is superfluous.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 14:15:29

Roy, Stallman wasn't "outspoken", he was offensive. It's a safe bet he'll never be asked to speak at the Desktop Summit again. I'm still waiting to hear where you stand on this: are you in support of Stallman's comments, and maintaining the 50-to-1 ratio of men to women in FLOSS development, are do you want to make things better?
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 14:21:29

I disagree with many of his views, but the debate alone proves fruitful. For example, see Chris Hitchens and how he dares to say the unthinkable. This leads to good discussions.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 14:33:12

Singling out women for denigrating jokes during a keynote speech is not "debate", Roy.

It seems you're taking the position that the current climate, as typified by Stallman's comments, and which actively drives women away from involvement in FLOSS is one you support.

For shame, Roy.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 14:40:03

I don't agree with Stallman on this subject, but I do agree on the subject of free speech.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 15:09:10

A transparent dodge, Roy. Stallman is free to spout whatever sexist dopiness he likes, but a keynote speech, at a major technical conference, to which he's been flown, and housed, and fed, and paid, is an utterly inappropriate venue for him to be doing it in.

The so-called "leader of the free software movement" should not be driving people away from involvement in free software based on their gender. Do you think that's a debateable proposition?
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 15:20:10

The so-called “leader of the free software movement” should not be driving people away from involvement in free software based on their gender. Do you think that’s a debateable proposition?

As much as I disagree with Stallman on this subject, I strongly believe he deserves his rights, including free speech. The debate that I speak about is us with him. Our goal is to convince him he was wrong. Imagine what if we denied people's right to speak rather than use it as a remedial opportunity to change their thoughts, not expression. In other words, rather than gag Stallman, let's try to persuade him. Without him speaking openly, how would we know his mistakes?

eet

2009-07-12 10:16:35

Roy's trying to wriggle out of it by talking his head off. That's his usual tactics; he's hoping David will return to talking instead of taking serious steps.

Forget it Roy, I don't think David is going to fall for this tactic.

David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 14:19:49

No, I'm completely serious about this. While I'm at it, I'll be contacting Jimmi Hugh, the journalists whom Roy's accused of "taking bribes", and others he's defamed--and continues to defame--on this site. They may be interested in joining in.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 14:23:28

It is heartwarming to see people who disagree with me resort to bullying rather than rational discussions.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 14:27:15

Stop playing the victim, Roy. You libelled me; my responding to it does not constitute "bullying".

Have you sought competent legal counsel yet?
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 14:33:14

It is you who libeled me by suggesting a connection that does not exist and then harassing me by posting many comments that repeat that same libelous accusation. Do not be a hypocrite.

The difference between me and you is that I don't run to lawyers to bully those who I disagree with (even those who libel me by endlessly saying I am "transgendered", a "child molester", etc).
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 14:39:18

If you think I've libelled you, Roy, you welcome to try top prove it in front of a judge. I'll show my evidence, and you can wave your hands and "explain".

I don't put good odds on your chances.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 14:45:10

I, unlike you, don't believe in policing speech through litigation. Maybe it's something in the US mentality which makes lawyers and their clients so trigger-happy.

Watch this nice video (5 parts) on how much was lost, e.g. in the inquisition days, by impeding speech and criminalising for it.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger

2009-07-12 15:00:22

Libel is not protected speech, Roy, not anywhere (and particularly not in the UK). While the courts are a remedy of last resort, if that's the only remedy you leave me, then that's the one I'll be forced to use. And if you make me use it, rest assured, I'll use it as punitively as I can.

Now, I've given you an easy way to resolve this, and I've told you what the hard way will be. It's up to you whether you want to do the right thing now, and get on with what passes for a life as far as you're concerned, or make me take the route that will be much more unpleasant for you, and for a much longer duration, not to mention at vastly greater cost.
Roy Schestowitz

2009-07-12 15:14:22

What have you to gain from legal harassment? Intimidation is for the feeble and litigation is for the impulsive.

If you want me to retract statements that are not correct, please let me know which ones are not correct and I will gladly retract in public. I'm not here to fight or mislead.
eet

2009-07-12 15:17:43

Yes, here is the good, old pattern...

To quote myself: >When he realized he couldn’t get out of it by wriggling, as >he does usually, he very, very demurely shrank back from >all his claims. As soon as real life barges in on his >make-belief, virtual, paranoid world, he is just scared.

AngryReader

2009-07-12 16:31:03

My lawyers will be contacting all the preceding posters. The dribble from this thread flowed down onto my keyboard causing it to malfunction. I have enlisted the services of the prestigious law firm Martin, Barton & Fargo. Expect to hear from them soon. Henceforth, forthwith the afore mentioned to whom it may concern ! Yours Sincerely, Sue Yahassov.

Revisionism with Stereotypes

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