Comments

• Needs Sunlight

  2008-06-13 09:35:53

  "Joe ‘Zonker’ Brockmeier, who is also the Community Manager of OpenSUSE." Hmm. That explains a bit. :(
  
  He's also an editor and author on several forums...

• Root

  2008-06-13 09:47:20

  He only signed up for the job of Community Manager on February 1st.

• Francis

  2008-06-13 12:15:53

  You are again insinuating something for which you have zero evidence for (and for which I know to be untrue as far as I can see): you are suggesting that some openSUSE people really have the time, effort, or cheek to create multiple accounts on the website. Perhaps thinking this offers you some consolation for the fact that a lot of individuals apparently really dislike the content and approach of this website?
  
  I could equally easily note that I've seen -- in countless places -- people suggesting that you create multiple accounts on many websites in order to do something similar. I wouldn't do this though, because I have no EVIDENCE for it. One person's wild idea isn't evidence, you know.
  
  Great to see the openSUSE stories being well-received on FSDaily. From the reaction of people's comments on there I see that they're more interested in hearing about open source SOFTWARE than ramblings and FUD (just what I've seen). For sure there will be a lot more submissions to there in the future I hope.

• Balzac

  2008-06-13 14:09:39

  Francis,
  
  Licensing issues are very important, not just the software its self. Microsoft is making arrangements to collect what amounts to a tax on software users, based on the threat of patent claims. Novell has become a vehicle for this strategy to tax us all. Look how Microsoft relates to Novell and Linspire:
  
  http://www.microsoft.com/interop/collab/linspire/customer_covenant.mspx
  
  Covenant to Customers Published: July 5, 2007 | Updated: July 5, 2007
  
  Microsoft, on behalf of itself and its Subsidiaries, hereby covenants not to sue a Customer of Linspire for infringement under Microsoft’s Covered Patents… … However, Client Offerings do not include (i) any portions of products that comprise or include … GPLv3 Software or Other Excluded Products
  
  http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/patent_agreement.mspx
  
  Patent Cooperation Agreement - Microsoft & Novell Interoperability Collaboration Published: November 2, 2006 | Updated: July 5, 2007
  
  Microsoft, on behalf of itself and its Subsidiaries (collectively “Microsoft”), hereby covenants not to sue Novell’s Customers and Novell’s Subsidiaries’ Customers for infringement under Covered Patents of Microsoft…
  
  So, I suppose the rest of us can look forward to the threat of lawsuits because we haven't made arrangements to pay Microsoft an arbitrarily imposed tax on ideas?
  
  Here's what Redhat did:
  
  http://technocrat.net/d/2008/6/11/43190
  
  Linux Vendor Red Hat Settles Patent Suits, Says It's Protecting the Open Source Community Bruce Perens
  
  Wed Jun 11 14:04:00 -0700 2008
  
  "This is very different from patent agreements made by Novell and other Linux distributions with Microsoft, which protect their own customers exclusively, excluding the Open Source community that develops their software."
  
  It's obvious to those who are paying attention what Microsoft is doing with Novell. Also, it's clear there is a close relationship between Novell and openSUSE.
  
  I am not supportive of the openSUSE project because I worry that Novell will get openSUSE to put code into their work which Microsoft will later claim belongs to them.
  
  I hope the Linux Kernel maintainers are watching any code offered up from openSUSE and Novell with great concern since the deal with Microsoft went down. I don't care how nice the software is, I don't want to be taxed by Microsoft!

• Victor Soliz

  2008-06-13 14:30:30

  So, you insist openSUSE is open source, did you happen to read their EULA?

• Balzac

  2008-06-13 14:46:42

  Francis,
  
  Licensing issues are very important, not just the software its self. Microsoft is making arrangements to collect what amounts to a tax on software users, based on the threat of patent claims. Novell has become a vehicle for this strategy to tax us all. Look how Microsoft relates to Novell and Linspire:
  
  http://www.microsoft.com/interop/collab/linspire/customer_covenant.mspx
  
  Covenant to Customers Published: July 5, 2007 | Updated: July 5, 2007
  
  Microsoft, on behalf of itself and its Subsidiaries, hereby covenants not to sue a Customer of Linspire for infringement under Microsoft’s Covered Patents… … However, Client Offerings do not include (i) any portions of products that comprise or include … GPLv3 Software or Other Excluded Products
  
  http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/patent_agreement.mspx
  
  Patent Cooperation Agreement - Microsoft & Novell Interoperability Collaboration Published: November 2, 2006 | Updated: July 5, 2007
  
  Microsoft, on behalf of itself and its Subsidiaries (collectively “Microsoft”), hereby covenants not to sue Novell’s Customers and Novell’s Subsidiaries’ Customers for infringement under Covered Patents of Microsoft…
  
  So, I suppose the rest of us can look forward to the threat of lawsuits because we haven't made arrangements to pay Microsoft an arbitrarily imposed tax on ideas?
  
  Here's what Redhat did:
  
  http://technocrat.net/d/2008/6/11/43190
  
  Linux Vendor Red Hat Settles Patent Suits, Says It's Protecting the Open Source Community Bruce Perens
  
  Wed Jun 11 14:04:00 -0700 2008
  
  "This is very different from patent agreements made by Novell and other Linux distributions with Microsoft, which protect their own customers exclusively, excluding the Open Source community that develops their software."
  
  I don't even like the idea of legitimizing software patents through defensive patent strategies to protect the public, much less an aggressive patent strategy like what Microsoft and Novell are doing. It makes me think it's time for more software civil disobedience.
  
  It's obvious what Microsoft is doing with Novell. Also, it's clear there is a close relationship between Novell and openSUSE. Is it true that a Novell employee is also community manager of openSUSE?
  
  I am not supportive of the openSUSE project because I worry that Novell will get openSUSE to put code into their work which Microsoft will later claim belongs to them.
  
  I hope the Linux Kernel maintainers are watching any code offered up from openSUSE and Novell with great concern since the deal with Microsoft went down. I don't care how nice the software is, I will not be taxed by Microsoft.

• RyanT

  2008-06-13 15:04:59

  Victor, I have read their EULA. All it is is the GPL and some stuff about any of the proprrietary/dodgy stuff you might use/install from the repositories. Roy here took a very specific sentence or two of it out of context.

• RyanT

  2008-06-13 15:28:34

  Just to clarify:
  
  "The Software is a collective work of Novell. You may make and use unlimited copies of the Software for Your distribution and use within Your Organization. You may make and distribute unlimited copies of the Software outside Your organization provided that: 1) You receive no consideration; and, 2) you do not bundle or combine the Software with another offering (e.g., software, hardware, or service). The term "Organization" means a legal entity, excluding subsidiaries and affiliates with a separate existence for tax purposes or for legal personality purposes. An example of an Organization in the private sector would be a corporation, partnership, or trust, excluding any subsidiaries or affiliates of the organization with a separate tax identification number or company registration number. In the public sector, an example of Organization would be a specific government body or local government authority.
  
  The Software is a modular operating system. Most of the components are open source packages, developed independently, and accompanied by separate license terms. Your license rights with respect to individual components accompanied by separate license terms are defined by those terms; nothing in this Agreement (including, for example, the "Other License Terms and Restrictions," below) shall restrict, limit, or otherwise affect any rights or obligations You may have, or conditions to which You may be subject, under such license terms."
  
  "OTHER LICENSE TERMS AND RESTRICTIONS
  
  The Software is protected by the copyright laws and treaties of the United States ("U.S.") and other countries and is subject to the terms of this Agreement. The Software is licensed to You, not sold.
  
  The Software may be bundled with other software programs ("Bundled Programs"). Your license rights with respect to Bundled Programs accompanied by separate license terms are defined by those terms; nothing in this Agreement shall restrict, limit, or otherwise affect any rights or obligations You may have, or conditions to which You may be subject, under such license terms.
  
  Novell reserves all rights not expressly granted to You. You may not: (1) reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Software except and only to the extent it is expressly permitted by applicable law or the license terms accompanying a component of the Software; or (2) transfer the Software or Your license rights under this Agreement, in whole or in part."
  
  All it defines is that whatever programme you use is subject to the individual licensing of that programme and not necessarily the same one you agree to with openSUSE when you first get it. The rest of it is bog standard legal speak (like any rights you do not have being reserved, as with every company) and clarifying certain things so they don't get bitten on the arse for something that is not necessarily their responsibility (again, bog standard stuff).
  
  The stuff about another service doesn't stop derivative distributions and the like as far as I can tell, it just states that you can't resell openSUSE itself as your own product (the same as the GPL as far as I know).

• RyanT

  2008-06-13 15:49:08

  Balzac:
  
  All the agreement does, again, as far as I can tell. is state that MS can't sue Novell customers for patent infringement (which in itself is right, but I'm guessing MS bullying convinced Novell that this was necessary), and that they shall respect and avoid any patents MS has.
  
  On it's own, the agreement is actually pretty agreeable, apart from exclusivity to the Novell customers. The critical part is whether those patents would have stood up if Novell hadn't either been seemingly bullied or given up quickly (to an extent the same with Red Hat), not the overall conspiracy that has come about with MS sneaking code in or this or that - I'm against Silverlight/Moonlight because of MS trying to get it's own web standard, but in themselves they really don't seem any different than the open implementations of Java or Flash. On their own, at least to me, they seem reasonable - we should be against them because of the potential standards that MS could get its hands on, not for some MS sneaking code in conspiracy.

• Chris

  2008-06-13 16:26:26

  Dear Victor, just for you I will say it one more time:
  
  The reason for the paragraphs Roy and his fan boys try to base their case on were included into the BETA EULA because certain german magazines repeatedly distributed BETA releases as FINALS and thereby implied that the overall software quality was pretty bad.
  
  Here you can see the current 11.0 EULA (which will again change and probably included the paragraphs you guys try to base your case on as soon as 11.1 development starts): http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-OSS-factory/inst-source/EULA.txt
  
  Then the 11.0 EULA probably can be seen here: http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.0/repo/oss/EULA.txt
  
  And here is the 10.3 EULA: http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/10.3/repo/oss/EULA.txt
  
  Feel free to point out any possible restrictions you see in those FINAL EULAS!
  
  Last but not least I would like to say that I'm really amazed how brainwashed / paranoid some of you folks are. Some years ago Roy misunderstood some simple facts and started to build his case based on his assumptions. And since then there barely a single day goes by without him adding more "facts" based on earlier "facts" as proof to his house of cards made out of misinformation and FUD which is basically founded on one misunderstanding.
  
  Also, in Roys little world, it for sure can't be true that finally loads of people are sick of his site & his conspiracy theories / little pamphlets and it just has to be a single Novell employee who sits somewhere in the basement and gets paid to do nothing but create loads of accounts on digg & fsdaily to run a "smear campaign" against this site.
  
  SO GET REAL FFS!
  
  The problem is not the MS Novell deal cause this one is completely irrelevant for FOSS & Linux but simply the american patent law which is IMHO one of the most retarded laws in the world. So please stop to see a plot behind everything & concentrate on the real problem or get help.
  
  Thanks.

• Chris

  2008-06-13 16:29:50

  test

• Chris

  2008-06-13 16:30:50

  Dear Victor, just for you I will say it one more time:
  
  The reason for the paragraphs Roy and his fan boys try to base their case on were included into the BETA EULA because certain german magazines repeatedly distributed BETA releases as FINALS and thereby implied that the overall software quality was pretty bad.
  
  Here you can see the current 11.0 EULA (which will again change and probably included the paragraphs you guys try to base your case on as soon as 11.1 development starts): http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-OSS-factory/inst-source/EULA.txt
  
  Then the 11.0 EULA probably can be seen here: http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.0/repo/oss/EULA.txt
  
  And here is the 10.3 EULA: http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/10.3/repo/oss/EULA.txt
  
  Feel free to point out any possible restrictions you see in those FINAL EULAS!
  
  Last but not least I would like to say that I'm really amazed how brainwashed / paranoid some of you folks are. Some years ago Roy misunderstood some simple facts and started to build his case based on his assumptions. And since then there barely a single day goes by without him adding more "facts" based on earlier "facts" as proof to his house of cards made out of misinformation and FUD which is basically founded on one misunderstanding.
  
  Also, in Roys little world, it for sure can't be true that finally loads of people are sick of his site & his conspiracy theories / little pamphlets and it just has to be a single Novell employee who sits somewhere in the basement and gets paid to do nothing but create loads of accounts on digg & fsdaily to run a "smear campaign" against this site.
  
  SO GET REAL FFS!
  
  The problem is not the MS Novell deal cause this one is completely irrelevant for FOSS & Linux but simply the american patent law which is IMHO one of the most retarded laws in the world. So please stop to see a plot behind everything & concentrate on the real problem or get help.
  
  Thanks.
  
  PS I'm wondering why it doesn't show my comment also the test works?

• Chris

  2008-06-13 16:31:33

  Dear Victor, just for you I will say it one more time:
  
  The reason for the paragraphs Roy and his fan boys try to base their case on were included into the BETA EULA because certain german magazines repeatedly distributed BETA releases as FINALS and thereby implied that the overall software quality was pretty bad.
  
  Here you can see the current 11.0 EULA (which will again change and probably included the paragraphs you guys try to base your case on as soon as 11.1 development starts): http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-OSS-factory/inst-source/EULA.txt
  
  Then the 11.0 EULA probably can be seen here: http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.0/repo/oss/EULA.txt
  
  And here is the 10.3 EULA: http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/10.3/repo/oss/EULA.txt
  
  Feel free to point out any possible restrictions you see in those FINAL EULAS!

• zoltan

  2008-06-13 22:14:27

  The EULA is absolutely fine. I am also quite amazed to read that most people on this site don't seem to have any idea how big the contributions are that Novell makes to Linux and GNU projects. If you want to boycott Novell, don't forget to stop using Evolution and OpenOffice -- oh; and the Kernel, too, of course...

• Saul Goode

  2008-06-14 07:06:45

  RyanT wrote:

  On it’s own, the agreement is actually pretty agreeable, apart from exclusivity to the Novell customers.

  
  
  Translation: Aside from the fact that it's not Free, it's Free.