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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: August 21st, 2008 - Part III

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PetoKrausi don't give credit eitherAug 21 19:06
schestowitzseller_liar: the press takes attention away from him. It glorifies Linux. Been like this since "Linux" took off.Aug 21 19:07
PetoKrausthough i like himAug 21 19:07
schestowitzIt was easier without all that so-called "political" burdenAug 21 19:07
PetoKrausand he's one of the three fanpages i joined on facebook (with debian and gentoo)Aug 21 19:07
seller_liarI don like LF because this false only "technical illusion of world"Aug 21 19:07
PetoKrausLF?Aug 21 19:08
seller_liarLinux foundationAug 21 19:08
schestowitzTo be funded by Microsoft one day, I've always reckoned. Like SCO was pro-Linux back in the days.Aug 21 19:09
seller_liarAll credit goes to LF ,Aug 21 19:10
seller_liarLinus,Greg and Alan are the only other pieces of chessAug 21 19:10
schestowitzIBMers answer my question about Mono in Second Life now: 21 19:10
PetoKrausgreg and alan?Aug 21 19:10
seller_liarAll Linux foundation peopleAug 21 19:10
schestowitzCox and HartmanAug 21 19:11
seller_liaryesAug 21 19:11
schestowitzHe's with Novell (the latterAug 21 19:11
PetoKrausnever heard of'emAug 21 19:11
schestowitzShould quit. :-)Aug 21 19:11
seller_liarof course Ted tso and all other of LFAug 21 19:11
schestowitzGood point raised there: "So the question is, what does mono bring to the table that java doesn’t?"Aug 21 19:11
PetoKrausschestowitz: definitelyAug 21 19:12
schestowitzI'm tired of IBM's secrecy. Same with Dell. Whose side are they on?Aug 21 19:12
PetoKrauswell, the only thing would be - speedAug 21 19:12
schestowitzOn Dell and H-P: 21 19:12
seller_liarschestowitz: hey royAug 21 19:13
seller_liarschestowitz: dot gnu have patent problems?Aug 21 19:13
schestowitzOh, I forgot to answer that.Aug 21 19:13
schestowitz[H]omer suggests that it's wrong to support .NET, not just with Mono.Aug 21 19:14
seller_liarschestowitz: why fsf do this?Aug 21 19:14
schestowitzSome say Dot GNU is for porting /to/ Linux, but not development from scratch.Aug 21 19:14
schestowitzI don't know, seller_liar Aug 21 19:14
PetoKrauslet's ask thenAug 21 19:14
seller_liarschestowitz: only interoperabiltyAug 21 19:14
schestowitzI spoke to RMS a few times. He's not anti-Mono, but he doesn't want GNOME to depend on it.Aug 21 19:14
seller_liarschestowitz: who is the leader of gnome project? Icaza?Aug 21 19:15
schestowitz 21 19:15
schestowitzNo.Aug 21 19:15
schestowitzIcaza sneaked out when there was a storm over Mono last year. He left quietly.Aug 21 19:15
seller_liarschestowitz: but ,he  is a leader secretlyAug 21 19:16
schestowitzWatc Update #1 here: 21 19:17
schestowitzWathc Update #1 here: 21 19:17
PetoKrausschestowitz: will you type it third time? :PAug 21 19:18
PetoKrauscorrectly ^Aug 21 19:19
schestowitzOh oh.Aug 21 19:20
schestowitz"The concept, which Intellectual Ventures presented this summer to the American Nuclear Society, would reduce the need for costly uranium enrichment and reprocessing, cutting the risk of weapons proliferation. The firm has a team of 30 engineers and scientists refining the concept, not to mention a big-name backer: Bill Gates."Aug 21 19:20
schestowitz 21 19:20
schestowitzSo Mr. Gates is investing in patent trolls.Aug 21 19:20
schestowitzPetoKraus: oops, didn't notice the typo. :-)Aug 21 19:23
schestowitzHere's an article in English about the Poland situation we wrote about yesterday: 21 19:32
PetoKraus 21 19:34
PetoKrausin case you didn't knowAug 21 19:35
schestowitzOh, that's Grokla material.Aug 21 19:38
schestowitz*Groklaw  ; Thanks, anyway.Aug 21 19:38
schestowitz 21 19:39
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seller_liar 21 19:51
seller_liara good inoccent linux distributionAug 21 19:52
seller_liarsad, but it uses mono for package managementAug 21 19:52
seller_liarlook at version 1.14Aug 21 19:52
seller_liarmono develop 1.0 !Aug 21 19:52
PetoKrausaaaaaahAug 21 19:53
seller_liarbut is very good distroAug 21 19:53
PetoKraushow?Aug 21 19:53
PetoKrausi mean, what makes distro "good"?Aug 21 19:54
PetoKrausfor youAug 21 19:54
seller_liaris inoccent, The distro does not endorse m$-novellAug 21 19:54
schestowitzOh no.Aug 21 19:54
schestowitzI liked Paldo GNU/Linux.Aug 21 19:54
schestowitzIt's from Switzerland, IIRC. One developer.Aug 21 19:54
seller_liarthe distro developer is using valaAug 21 19:54
seller_liarnot monoAug 21 19:54
schestowitzHmmm..Aug 21 19:54
seller_liarvala will be a default language for upkgAug 21 19:55
seller_liarnot mono anymoreAug 21 19:55
PetoKrausahaAug 21 19:55
schestowitzI remeber buying my previous PC from Dabs. Now comes this: founder accused of attempted rape, drugs offences The founder of, David Atherton, has been charged with attempted rape and possession of Class A drugs.Aug 21 19:55
schestowitzAtherton, who sold his business to BT in April 2006 for €£30m, is in custody after appearing in court in Bolton earlier this week.Aug 21 19:55
schestowitzA spokesman for Manchester Police said: "A 50-year-old man has been charged after a woman was sexually assaulted.Aug 21 19:55
schestowitz 21 19:55
schestowitzSorry about the OT thing. Just noticed it.Aug 21 19:56
seller_liarPetoKraus: what?Aug 21 19:56
PetoKrausseller_liar: reading about vala.Aug 21 19:56
seller_liarPetoKraus: Vala it's mono anyway?Aug 21 19:56
PetoKraus 21 19:56
PetoKrausschestowitz: you know, this reminds me of reiser.Aug 21 19:57
schestowitzThere was another recent one I can't recall.Aug 21 19:57
schestowitzA founder of some company found dead after he had run naked and hugged some policeman. I can't remember which company.Aug 21 19:57
schestowitzAnd yesterday an executive from Vodafone (IIRC) was murdered in her house.Aug 21 19:58
schestowitz(it was reported yesterday, but happened before)Aug 21 19:58
seller_liarPetoKraus: like C# syntax ,but it'no mono frameworkAug 21 19:58
seller_liar*it's not mono frameworkAug 21 19:58
PetoKrausyesAug 21 19:58
PetoKrausit's not .NET port.Aug 21 19:58
schestowitzOn the other hand, a Microsoft manager was jailed for fraud last month.Aug 21 19:58
seller_liarschestowitz: who?Aug 21 19:59
PetoKrausschestowitz: shall we celebrate?Aug 21 19:59
schestowitzI await the day that naked emperor Microsoft is found to be Enron #2 (or something not quite as bad but still a phony).Aug 21 19:59
schestowitzseller_liar: it's older newsAug 21 19:59
schestowitzHold onAug 21 19:59
seller_liarschestowitz: I was thinking....Aug 21 19:59
schestowitz 21 19:59
schestowitzLots of links about the fraud here: 21 20:00
seller_liarschestowitz: Where are going the 90 bi which m$ lost?Aug 21 20:00
seller_liarschestowitz: ok thanksAug 21 20:00
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schestowitzLost market value. Investors lost it, including Microsoft shareholders. They now pump up the stock so it's rising artificially. Pump and dump.Aug 21 20:01
schestowitzI've got loads of things I want to post in I'll probably to to sleep very late today.Aug 21 20:01
seller_liarschestowitz:  push-pullAug 21 20:01
schestowitzMaybe it's true what ASUS said about shortages < >, but why restock/stock just Windows and not GNU/Linux? (will watch this closely now)Aug 21 20:09
PetoKrausno money left for linux licenses?Aug 21 20:11
PetoKraus:PAug 21 20:11
neighborleewth is this rand-z I hear being pushed by this..alternatealias on buntu forums ???Aug 21 20:12
PetoKraus?Aug 21 20:13
neighborleeI just replied to his..ahem post by finding one from someone, to whom alternatealias never seemed able to find a comeback for,,here is my post: 21 20:14
schestowitzneighborlee: no, no RAND-zAug 21 20:14
neighborleeah,,,Aug 21 20:14
schestowitzBTW, RAND means something worse than they have you believe.Aug 21 20:14
neighborleereasonable blah..Aug 21 20:14
neighborleeI notice whenever these moles cant find a arguement to back their claims,,they get nasty.Aug 21 20:15
neighborleego fig ;)Aug 21 20:15
schestowitzSee 21 20:16
schestowitzThey use jargon so as to have you confused and give us.Aug 21 20:16
schestowitz*upAug 21 20:16
neighborleebrbAug 21 20:16
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schestowitzThis is becoming a long discussion: As usual, the LXer community is the hardestAug 21 20:22
neighborlee;)Aug 21 20:23
schestowitzOn Mono:" Well there’s… Mono? Sure, Novell has access to Microsoft’s developers and documentation for re-implementing .NET on Linux, but Microsoft has hardly made a college try to help Novell actually FINISH Mono or commit programmers to the effort.  Hell, if Microsoft took one million dollars of that hundred million, and earmarked a few of its .NET developers as consulting staff to Novell for 3 years, you can bet they would Aug 21 20:24
schestowitzget to parity with the one on Windows, at least so it isn’t always broken with the latest implementation of whatever API. Now, I’m not blaming Microsoft for not being open with Novell — it’s not their implicit responsibility to build Open Source projects — Mono is a Novell sponsored, community effort. But if Microsoft really wants to see .NET running on literally every OS, then Mono is going to need more than just “hereAug 21 20:24
schestowitz’s our docs and call our guys and come on campus whenever you want when you need help, Miguel. Oh and by the way, have some free Diet Cokes and go use our Starbucks in the lounge.”"Aug 21 20:24
schestowitz 21 20:24
neighborleeyeah its clear we need to remember what ballmer said 2/28/2008,,,about who is M$'s biggest competitor..of course he said linux :)Aug 21 20:24
neighborleeand to think anyone wonders, why people want nothng to do with mono ? sheesh louizaAug 21 20:24
schestowitzWho's louiza? :-)Aug 21 20:26
neighborleeone of the biggets plus's for us, is redhat, not supporting mono and fedora coming latley to their senses.Aug 21 20:26
neighborleeoh sorry LOLAug 21 20:26
neighborleeits a english  saying :)Aug 21 20:26
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schestowitzI'm used to "yes charlotte"Aug 21 20:29
neighborlee 21 20:29
neighborleeschestowitz, lolAug 21 20:29
neighborleejust my way of avoiding cuss words, while remembering my dear grandmother, whose name was louise ;),,hey it works ;)Aug 21 20:31
schestowitzGod bless her.Aug 21 20:31
neighborleehehAug 21 20:32
neighborleeoh btw..what is this claim, that mono is in the OIN ,,I can not find it anywhere ..??Aug 21 20:32
schestowitzThat would be new to me. OIN has patents? ]sarcasm /]Aug 21 20:33
neighborleelolAug 21 20:34
schestowitzWe don't have patents. Also, see my earlier pointer to Gates' backing of trolls.Aug 21 20:36
schestowitzOIN is worthless against trolls. They laugh at it.Aug 21 20:36
neighborlee:)Aug 21 20:36
schestowitzTo put it mildly, I'm find a trend where Mac users (putting it mildly... not fans) praise every piece of Mac-only 'open source'. If it need the Apple blobs, which only run on super-pricey gadgets and PCs, what's so open about it?Aug 21 20:52
schestowitz*needsAug 21 20:52
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neighborleeschestowitz, yeah welll maybe intel macs will come to rescue for apple necessities who idea what their pricing isAug 21 20:54
schestowitzIt's less about the hardware and more about the stack. If it's OK to criticise Windows-only 'open faux', then it would be hypocritical to accept this term dilution from Mac software.Aug 21 20:55
schestowitzGads, I've got so much stuff to post about Novell. I've /so/ fallen behind.Aug 21 20:56
neighborleeId ont know where you find the time...such a champ ;)(Aug 21 20:57
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seller_liarSomeone have tried to talk about remove mono from gnewsense?Aug 21 21:05
schestowitzHi, _Doug Aug 21 21:06
schestowitzYes, seller_liar Aug 21 21:06
schestowitz[H]omer did.Aug 21 21:07
seller_liarandAug 21 21:07
_DougHey ..Aug 21 21:07
schestowitzWell... I'll get you some links.Aug 21 21:07
seller_liarbrian and paul did not acceptAug 21 21:07
schestowitz 21 21:07
schestowitzOops. I meant Gobuntu.Aug 21 21:08
schestowitz 21 21:08
seller_liarschestowitz: thanks! I do not know about this pageAug 21 21:08
schestowitzThey sort of join forces (not exactly), so it may be relevant. Shuttleworth does seem to mind Mono though (PJ disagrees with him too because he ignores the patent trolls): 21 21:09
schestowitzDoug, the troll came back yesterday (or the day before). Via Tor, got banned.Aug 21 21:10
_DougWell .. it figures ..Aug 21 21:10
schestowitzTime for a policy sooner or later. They play innocent while throwing insults.Aug 21 21:12
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schestowitzHow ironic is this headline:   They can make datacentres there, but they shred lots of evidence of Microsoft crimes over in Iowa. They also have some very questionable tax  rebates there. Possible misconduct or subtle bribe.. never  mind that though.Aug 21 21:13
_DougIowa, that's the place where the Court shreads its own documents .. :)Aug 21 21:14
_DougOr is it Utah ?Aug 21 21:15
schestowitzI can't find what I'm looking for.Aug 21 21:16
schestowitz There was another one with listing of some kind of rebate.Aug 21 21:16
schestowitz_Doug: see this: (El Reg reference at the top)Aug 21 21:16
_DougIt was new SCO that wnr backinto court and shreaded its own documents ..Aug 21 21:19
_Doug 21 21:20
schestowitzYes.Aug 21 21:20
schestowitzDid PJ cover this?Aug 21 21:20
_DougI would thin so ..Aug 21 21:21
schestowitzSee what you can make of this one: 21 21:23
schestowitzI thought about trying to ask Dell for answers, but they are too boiler-roomy, methinks.Aug 21 21:23
_Dougco-incidence .. :)Aug 21 21:23
schestowitzWhy Did Dell join in?Aug 21 21:26
_Doug"I have written confirmation that several hundred boxes have already been turned into paper mulch," said J. Harrison Colter, an attorney for the Canopy Group, which is now representing SCO/Caldera in the documents matter.Aug 21 21:27
_DougSee .. totaly coincidental ...Aug 21 21:27
_DougWhy Did Dell join in?: because MS stood on their nuts .. re OEM contracts ?Aug 21 21:28
schestowitzDoesn't say much about Dell.Aug 21 21:28
schestowitzYesAug 21 21:28
schestowitzThat's what I reckon, but what are the terms?Aug 21 21:29
_Dougthey're just the "delivery people"Aug 21 21:29
schestowitzDell already pays Microsoft for Ubuntu PCsAug 21 21:29
schestowitz 21 21:29
_Dougjoin in: what more recent developements are you refering to, if any ?Aug 21 21:29
seller_liarfor codecs?Aug 21 21:29
schestowitzThat's what happens when many companies can assemble parts and only one can sell Windows.Aug 21 21:30
schestowitzThat's why there was a stampede to Symbian too. Control.Aug 21 21:30
schestowitzYes, seller_liar, at the leastAug 21 21:31
_Dougcodecs: ahh .. well it's just  more of the same extend (IP protection) and embrace (ie pollute)Aug 21 21:31
schestowitzSame with their new 'Remix': 21 21:31
schestowitzAs you can see, even Shuttleworth confirmed this to us.Aug 21 21:31
schestowitzYes, then Mono and other stuff, eh?Aug 21 21:32
schestowitzUntil Windows is cheaper.Aug 21 21:32
_DougI see the light: it's all about poluting the codecs, nothing new to see here ...Aug 21 21:33
_DougWhat do Dell get out of it, their 'partner' agrees to not sue them ... !Aug 21 21:34
schestowitzWhere does H-P in this picture. They only preload SLED 10, which is polluted and paid for via Novell.Aug 21 21:35
neighborlee_Doug, haha as alwaysAug 21 21:35
schestowitzHad it not been for the Dell polls, they would probably go with SLED, which is what they offer in China.Aug 21 21:36
neighborleemaybe linus is right about 'release early and often', but I just cant see how a 6 mo. cycle for latest ubuntu release is going to give anyone the feeling of stability or security ?Aug 21 21:38
neighborleeatm I have mandriva installed, but due to their inclusion of mono, its about to be wipedAug 21 21:39
neighborleeand I really DO LOVE mandriva ..but mono nope, they can kiss my gritsAug 21 21:39
schestowitzUse KDE MandrivaAug 21 21:40
neighborleeI cantAug 21 21:40
neighborleeits against my  ethicsAug 21 21:40
_DougYou don't have to upgrade, it's not as if the new stuff will stop working with the old 'stuff'Aug 21 21:40
neighborleesorry to be anal, but thats just me ;(Aug 21 21:41
neighborleeok nvm, im not sorry :)Aug 21 21:41
neighborleeim firm in my resolve ;)whewAug 21 21:41
schestowitzKDE against your ethics or MonoAug 21 21:41
schestowitz?Aug 21 21:41
neighborleebothAug 21 21:41
neighborleegtk vs qtAug 21 21:41
neighborleeeven though I really am annoyed what gtk/gnome is doing to free softwareAug 21 21:42
neighborleeeven so,I can always fork if I wishAug 21 21:42
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schestowitzQt would go BSD probably had Trolltech dissolved in Nokia.Aug 21 21:43
neighborleehmAug 21 21:43
schestowitz 21 21:43
neighborleekewl thxAug 21 21:43
_DougWhat's Dell paying MS in royalties ?Aug 21 21:44
schestowitzNobody knows.Aug 21 21:44
_DougWhat's Dell paying MS in royalties for the codecs?Aug 21 21:44
schestowitzAsk Fluendo for starter, then ask Dell what that stupid deal was about.Aug 21 21:44
schestowitzDell and Canonical do it via Fleundo, Spaiin.Aug 21 21:45
_DougLike the Novell deal, it just gets Dell to put on paper that they acknowledge MS patent claims ..Aug 21 21:46
schestowitzI just got mentioned in ComputerWorld.Aug 21 21:46
schestowitz 21 21:46
neighborleeah icAug 21 21:47
_Doug"Users of GNU/Linux and Solaris operating systems have previously lacked solutions which enabled them to license and use popular media formats such as Windows Media, MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 in accordance with the laws of their country"Aug 21 21:47
schestowitzYes, _Doug, there's a group of them signing a paper suggesting that Linux is 'tainted.Aug 21 21:47
_Doug 21 21:47
neighborleeah yes..the dreaded takers overs/consolidations..I saw this comingAug 21 21:47
_DougSo it isn't a technical problem ..Aug 21 21:47
schestowitzNo need to show evidence. Just sign away. It's like SCO.Aug 21 21:47
_DougI do know that most distros, distributed from the US, had the codecs missing, you had to download these from a third country.Aug 21 21:48
_DougWhat a pity some people didn't sgow more backbone !!!Aug 21 21:48
_Dougshow = sgowAug 21 21:48
schestowitzYes, but you needn't buy a Dell for GNU/Linux. It's chicken and egg...Aug 21 21:50
schestowitzScenario 1: People refuse to pay Microsoft by buying Ubuntu from Dell, then Dell takes Linux off mass marketAug 21 21:51
schestowitzScenario 2: everyone accepts Microsoft tax, buys Ubuntu from Dell, then Microsoft essentially owns the GNU.Aug 21 21:51
schestowitzGreat, ain't it?Aug 21 21:51
_DougAll we're seeing is the balkanization of Open Source ..Aug 21 21:52
_Dougpurr of evil .. :)Aug 21 21:52
_DougMS prints Ubuntu coupons .. :)Aug 21 21:53
_Dougwe haven't even got to IP violations in the er .. IP protocols .. :)Aug 21 21:54
schestowitzWell, not exactly.Aug 21 21:54
schestowitzprotocols IP you mean?Aug 21 21:54
_DougThat'll keep for 2012 ...Aug 21 21:55
_DougIntellectual Property violations in 'our' Internet ProtocolsAug 21 21:55
schestowitzThey have Apache now.Aug 21 21:56
_DougIP violations in the IP stack .. it's a pun .. :)Aug 21 21:56
_DougApache ?Aug 21 21:56
schestowitz 21 21:56
schestowitzNot excctly though.Aug 21 21:57
schestowitzBruce Perens and his community reckon they'll try to change HTTP or HTML.Aug 21 21:57
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trmanco_great :|Aug 21 22:20
schestowitzSpecifically...?Aug 21 22:20
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trmanco_my twinAug 21 22:21
neighborleelolAug 21 22:21
schestowitzSpookyAug 21 22:21
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trmancogoodAug 21 22:21
trmancoI'm back and authedAug 21 22:21
schestowitzI wonder if we should speak to the OSIAug 21 22:21
schestowitzThey sure seem to be more concerned now about Novell's role.Aug 21 22:22
schestowitzAha!! 21 22:38
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neighborleeschestowitz, I like part of that, except the part where he mentions his faith in novel for helping spread foss LOLAug 21 22:55
schestowitzNovell has money ties with KDEAug 21 22:56
schestowitzThey have just sponsored Akademy, so he must suck up to them. Mind you, this is one of the top KDE developersAug 21 22:56
schestowitzHe's almost man #1 in terms of recognition in KDE.Aug 21 22:56
neighborleeah didnt knowAug 21 22:57
schestowitzIOW, he need to keep his mouth shut. Watch how he ends the post apologetically. He also CLOSED COMMENTS.Aug 21 22:57
neighborleeok, thats sad then, knowing that.Aug 21 22:57
neighborleeI noticed that yesAug 21 22:58
neighborleewhimp majorAug 21 22:58
schestowitzThe message Novell sends Aaron: "you just keep developing. Be a good volunteer. We'll sell coupons for "peace of mind", i.e. we won't blow your mates' kneecaps"Aug 21 22:59
schestowitzThey should stand up and demand change. It's amazing how much they put up with as volunteers. Novell stomps on their GPL -- their butter and bread for success.Aug 21 23:00
neighborleeyes and so the world turns ;)Aug 21 23:11
neighborleeI guess we all choose how our story is written ;)Aug 21 23:11
schestowitzI hope that the devs will become more vocal, but they can't because of friends and colleagues.Aug 21 23:11
schestowitzLinus has colleagues from Novell, which funds the LF.Aug 21 23:11
schestowitzKDE has support from Novell (which at the same time screwing the devs)Aug 21 23:12
neighborleethey best be caefulAug 21 23:12
neighborleecarefulAug 21 23:12
neighborleeI have  very good friends, who are almost ready to DUMP ubuntu for *BSDAug 21 23:12
schestowitzBSD? Why?Aug 21 23:13
schestowitzThey have similar DEs (GNOME, KDE, etc.)Aug 21 23:13
neighborleeI suppose the licenseAug 21 23:13
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schestowitzLicences are not the problem./Aug 21 23:14
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neighborleeunhappy with mono intrusion, etc.Aug 21 23:14
schestowitzBSD will break loose on the desktop when GNU/Linux does.Aug 21 23:14
schestowitzneighborlee: they inherit the same s*Aug 21 23:15
schestowitzSee my point about them using the same top layer of the stackAug 21 23:15
schestowitzThe kernel does not make all that much of a difference in this contextAug 21 23:15
neighborleeyeah I am not sure of his reasonAug 21 23:16
neighborleeI can askAug 21 23:16
schestowitzIt's possible to dance between kernels. The software stays largely the smae.Aug 21 23:17
neighborleemostly yesAug 21 23:17
schestowitzI've seen BSD users who complain about the same issue. They should help us.Aug 21 23:18
neighborleehm interesting had no idea,but yeahAug 21 23:19
schestowitzFreedom is not a popularity contest. As some GNUs would say, there's no point to compromising freedom for market share.Aug 21 23:19
MinceRBSD is even more susceptible to attacks from the enemies of FLOSS.Aug 21 23:19
schestowitzYes.Aug 21 23:21
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seller_liarthe big problem of BSD developers are elitism and "I'm the best"Aug 21 23:24
schestowitzTalk about Linus... though he too accuses them of this.Aug 21 23:25
Bobosame goes for Linux except they replace best with efficientAug 21 23:25
seller_liarfor exampleAug 21 23:25
seller_liarlook how many bsd distro have and how many GNU linux distros haveAug 21 23:26
seller_liar5 vs 500Aug 21 23:26
seller_liarwhy?Aug 21 23:26
schestowitzLinux has 5 'major' ones. :-)Aug 21 23:26
seller_liarLinus should not be considered, because he works for companies,not to desktop is much important for himAug 21 23:27
schestowitz1 kernel, 2 main DEs (also shared with BSDs), etc.Aug 21 23:27
neighborleeI think having so many does  cause fracturing of a otherwise solid base thoughAug 21 23:27
seller_liarschestowitz: BSD people is very bastardAug 21 23:27
neighborleeI always have thought so,,, considering the weak 'ish  releases of the major brands, I think im prob. about right on thatAug 21 23:27
Bobohold on Boycott Novel's Java chat sucksAug 21 23:27
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neighborleelol ok ;0- ;)Aug 21 23:28
seller_liarschestowitz: "oh my god ,my system works in a toaster"Aug 21 23:28
seller_liarschestowitz: "oh my god , my system do clustering over the internet!"Aug 21 23:28
neighborleeI think it also leads to some confusion of new users coming to LINUXAug 21 23:28
neighborleeoops linuxAug 21 23:28
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neighborleeie:omg, which one do I chooose ?Aug 21 23:28
ReverseGTRBobo hereAug 21 23:28
neighborlee lolAug 21 23:28
seller_liarschestowitz: "oh my god , my system is so paranoic whiche even can not install"Aug 21 23:29
ReverseGTRanyway you have to be a bit arrogant to design software which makes barely to no capital and is open for anyone to changeAug 21 23:29
seller_liar"oh my god, my system is more fast in servers than linux ,but no one looks for me"Aug 21 23:29
ReverseGTRie = open source means arrogant developers. Arrogance is not always a bad thing.Aug 21 23:29
neighborleewell ;)Aug 21 23:30
neighborleeit should not be so howeverAug 21 23:30
seller_liarIt's a shame for a donated kernel ,only help companiesAug 21 23:30
schestowitzHey, BoboAug 21 23:30
ReverseGTRschestowitz: yeaAug 21 23:30
schestowitzDon't forget that BSDers share lots od drivers with us.Aug 21 23:30
schestowitzOpenSSH too...Aug 21 23:30
seller_liarBSD people does not worry with "normal users"Aug 21 23:30
neighborleeyes much is sharedAug 21 23:30
schestowitzLet's not bark up the wrong tree :-) :-)Aug 21 23:31
ReverseGTRneighborlee: because both BSD and Linux users have a common social effortAug 21 23:31
ReverseGTRhow they go about it in detail differsAug 21 23:31
neighborleeyesAug 21 23:31
neighborleeI've read some on this issue, though not tonsAug 21 23:31
seller_liarBSD people is very crazy , M$ uses a lot of code from Bsd licenseAug 21 23:31
neighborleewellAug 21 23:32
neighborleeim not sure how that makes them crazy ;)Aug 21 23:32
schestowitzAfter the Reiser thing, I don't know if it's fair to call them crazy. Aug 21 23:32
schestowitzHans Reiser is a shame to many of us, a disgrace.Aug 21 23:33
ReverseGTRseller_liar: that is because their license allows anybody no matter indivisual or corporate body to utilize code without the end result necessarily being obligated to uphold the same requirementsAug 21 23:33
seller_liarreiser is a poor guymAug 21 23:33
neighborleevery sad yes, about reiserAug 21 23:33
neighborleewhat a shame he was so good at programming, yet so bad at social issues ;()Aug 21 23:33
ReverseGTRGNU on the other hand very vehamently disallows thatAug 21 23:33
seller_liarReverseGTR: yesAug 21 23:34
neighborleewellAug 21 23:34
neighborleeyou can argue bsd is therefore more freeAug 21 23:34
seller_liarBSD someday will acess the desktop?Aug 21 23:34
neighborleeyou take our freedom, ane chooose what you do with itAug 21 23:35
seller_liarlibertinous licenseAug 21 23:35
neighborleeyesAug 21 23:35
seller_liarlibertinity is not good, it's more useful on specific casesAug 21 23:35
ReverseGTRneighborlee: both can be exploited though, there is no way to avoid itAug 21 23:35
neighborleeI nowAug 21 23:35
neighborleeI know ;(Aug 21 23:35
neighborleebut that is how people make choices ;)Aug 21 23:36
neighborleeyou follow path of good,, or greedAug 21 23:36
neighborleethat defines who we are.Aug 21 23:36
seller_liarI do not knowAug 21 23:36
seller_liarButAug 21 23:36
ReverseGTRneighborlee: or you just implement or distribute your software the best way you thinkAug 21 23:36
seller_liarThe BSD people must change the focusAug 21 23:36
ReverseGTRsome businesses go opensource because they know they do not have infastructure to support all their users on their ownAug 21 23:37
ReverseGTRor that charging for support is their prerogativeAug 21 23:38
seller_liarUbuntu bsdAug 21 23:39
schestowitzSome of them iust latch onto others (Oracle)Aug 21 23:39
ReverseGTRschestowitz: they have the support, but lack the infastructure to develope protocols and apps on their ownAug 21 23:40
ReverseGTRif you want a even greater former software pioneer turned M$ shill there is SCOAug 21 23:41
ReverseGTReven there there isn't really a need for a Boycott SCO website since their systems are not widely used anymore anywayAug 21 23:42
MinceR003838 < neighborlee> you can argue bsd is therefore more freeAug 21 23:44
MinceRarguing won't make it true ;)Aug 21 23:45
schestowitzSCO got some positive coverage from their local press.Aug 21 23:45
MinceRgpl protects the freedom of the code, bsd doesn'tAug 21 23:45
neighborleeMinceR, hehAug 21 23:45
neighborleeI think thats a matter of opinion isn't itAug 21 23:46
neighborleeI mean they are both coming from freedom loving peopleAug 21 23:46
neighborleecreate, and shareAug 21 23:47
neighborleeand hope make better ;)))Aug 21 23:47
neighborleeI get that part yes ;)Aug 21 23:47
ReverseGTRMinceR: sure, it gives more freedom to the one who developed it but then they in turn can make it close to impossible to change it.Aug 21 23:47
MinceRit gives more freedom to users tooAug 21 23:48
MinceRit guarantees that the code will be available and will be legal to useAug 21 23:48
schestowitzSustainability question.Aug 21 23:48
schestowitzBSD is liberal, GPL protective of freedom. It's philosophy anywayAug 21 23:49
ReverseGTRMinceR: or in other words makes people automatically oblidged to obey whatever contractual obligations the developer set forth once opened. Which may include the inability to examine or change certain files thus making any other version pushed by someone else different if not inferiorAug 21 23:49
neighborleeschestowitz, yupAug 21 23:50
ReverseGTRlike schestowitz states, neither are betterAug 21 23:50
ReverseGTRit should be all up to the developer to decideAug 21 23:50
MinceRthe obligations it makes people obey are restricted to the ones set in the GPLAug 21 23:51
MinceRi wish we could get to the point where those protections won't be necessary any moreAug 21 23:51
schestowitzGPL's?Aug 21 23:52
MinceRbut today they're needed because of bastards like microsoft and appleAug 21 23:52
MinceRyesAug 21 23:52
neighborleeMinceR, indeed,,thats the ideaAug 21 23:52
schestowitzThey are already circumvanted with TiVo and swpatsAug 21 23:52
schestowitz*circumventedAug 21 23:52
ReverseGTRbut companies can also utilize the GPL to create a rift between their open source and closed distributions: 21 23:52
MinceRthat's why we need to use GPLv3Aug 21 23:52
neighborleetotally indeedAug 21 23:53
*MinceR readsAug 21 23:53
MinceRthat looks like they're violating the GPLAug 21 23:55
MinceRat least according to the article someone posted here earlierAug 21 23:55
ReverseGTRalso Google was caught handing out their latest and thus more complete SDKs to their 2nd Tier partners while leaving every other developer in the dark, eventually only to be found out after a Google employee screwed up in forwarding emails: 21 23:55
MinceRand i don't see how this is the GPL's faultAug 21 23:56
ReverseGTRMinceR: either way the rift in MySQL will happenAug 21 23:56
neighborleeReverseGTR, eek ;)Aug 21 23:56
MinceRwell, android isn't going to be open unless they support native codeAug 21 23:56
ReverseGTRMinceR: GPL can enable the main developer along with whoever they are partnered with to severly limit the open sourcecode to the point that anyone who developes from that can end up creating apps that are incapadible with the main string.Aug 21 23:58
*trmanco has quit ("I just hit the close button :)")Aug 21 23:58
MinceRso could they with BSDAug 21 23:58
ReverseGTRMinceR: but there is nothing legally binding the latterAug 21 23:59
MinceRthe license won't really keep the copyright holder from closing the codeAug 21 23:59
ReverseGTRMinceR: in order for them to do the same thing under BSD would be for them to openly admit they closed itAug 21 23:59

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