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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: November 17th, 2008 - Part 2

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_dougre; iTWire: keywords: coterie, hobbyists, primitive, techno-zealots, tinority, zealotsNov 17 20:00
_doug"great white hope of the desktop Linux tinority, Ubuntu"Nov 17 20:01
_dougmy $insert_random_hardware doesn't work on Linux .. :)Nov 17 20:01
schestowitzWhy is Google even feeding this MS-generated FUD? http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/goog...Nov 17 20:01
schestowitzFormer Microsoft temployees/employees!! http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/16/... Nov 17 20:01
schestowitz UK identities sold for €£80 online < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7732569.stm >. But we need more DBsNov 17 20:04
_dougitWire: 'I fully expect to get the usual "How much did Microsoft pay you to write this drivel?" in the comments section'Nov 17 20:07
_dougWell no Stan, we are totally jaded by this disengenious trolling. Are you deliberatly trying to provoke people. I can't recall reading ITWire before, but I'm not impressed so far ..Nov 17 20:08
schestowitzGood news: Norway for OOo.. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art... ( Norway encourages use of open source software )Nov 17 20:12
schestowitz_doug: editors like proving. I wrote about my experiences with editors in http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/31/tr...Nov 17 20:13
schestowitzAnother thing is academic kickbacks... Microsoft paying for recommendation by voice/publicity..  (not that it applies to Stan): http://boycottnovell.com/2008/03/17/a...Nov 17 20:15
_dougitWire: "I get annoyed with some website developers who insist on optimising websites for their clients to run on Internet Explorer"Nov 17 20:16
_dougNo, msFrontPage is designed to make pages that only render correctly with Iexplorer .. the website developers don't have a say in the matter .. :)Nov 17 20:17
_dougA bit like your site not working in FF ..Nov 17 20:17
schestowitzStandards are not part of the law. So Microsoft can violate them.Nov 17 20:18
_doughttp://www.itwire.com/ 104 Errors, 11 warning(s) http://validator.w3.org/Nov 17 20:19
_doughttp://www.w3.org/ This document was successfully checked as XHTML 1.0 Strict!Nov 17 20:19
_dougSomeone with 25 years IT experience doesn't know why FF won't render some sites correctly or why his 3G card won't work ?Nov 17 20:20
_dougNever mind his grandmother :)Nov 17 20:21
_dougI try very hard to move to the ad hominem .. but that 'drivle' is designed to provoke .. isn't it ?Nov 17 20:22
schestowitzYesNov 17 20:22
schestowitzI checked some *nix sites to see if they feed it.Nov 17 20:23
schestowitzIf they do, I'll drop a word. They just ask for more of the same that way.Nov 17 20:23
_doug"If you want to beat Microsoft, you can forget about the desktop game, instead invent another another game. Just ask Google"Nov 17 20:25
schestowitzWhere from?Nov 17 20:26
schestowitzStan?Nov 17 20:26
_dougI totally agree, sell a total stack something like a Telecom company + hardware maker + a MultiMedia desktop + content provider..Nov 17 20:27
_doughttp://www.itwire.com/content...Nov 17 20:27
_doug"Of course you could track down a Linux specialist - but you'll probably find that they charge a lot more than your corner computer store"Nov 17 20:27
_doug???? .. how difficult is it to install an average desktop .. ?Nov 17 20:28
schestowitzTee hee. "Linux specialist"Nov 17 20:28
_dougWhat 'support' do you get when your Windows breaks, phone a call center who telsl you to reinstall ..Nov 17 20:28
_doug"The common refrain "I've got my grandmother using it with no problems" neglects to mention that the grandmother has her own personal Linux zealot supporting her system"Nov 17 20:29
schestowitzI've seen videos of 13 year olds installing Linux smoothly.Nov 17 20:30
schestowitzThey are no geeks, they just follow instructions.Nov 17 20:30
schestowitz"Zealot"?Nov 17 20:30
_dougThis is just so much insulting bullshit .. I am very disappointed in ITWire ..Nov 17 20:30
schestowitzI guess Stan doesn't talk about those "Windows zealots" that come and clean up people's 'computer' (viruses, Registry, etc.)Nov 17 20:31
schestowitzShould I write something about it?Nov 17 20:31
schestowitzI'm tempted.Nov 17 20:31
schestowitzI didn't read the 'article'... but they had many like these recently.Nov 17 20:32
schestowitzThey accused Linux of being a religion a week ago... it's like part of a series of smears.Nov 17 20:32
schestowitzRed Hat amends share buyback program ( http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2... )Nov 17 20:34
_dougshould you write aboit it, well yea, give it a mention as a sample of trolling ..Nov 17 20:35
_dougwell, on the other hand, don't bother, it'll only bring hits to the site, which it's designed to do ..Nov 17 20:36
schestowitzHahah!Nov 17 20:37
schestowitz"Ubuntu offers a file browser, called Computer, which is similar to My Computer and Computer of Windows XP and Vista. " http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osr...Nov 17 20:37
schestowitzWindows has a file manager called "my computer"?Nov 17 20:37
schestowitzAnd Lunix has "computer" file browser.Nov 17 20:37
_dougRemind me again what buybacks are for ?Nov 17 20:37
schestowitzAnd that's the 'pres'Nov 17 20:37
trmancoLunixNov 17 20:38
trmancololNov 17 20:38
schestowitzTo elevate one's stock usually.Nov 17 20:38
schestowitz_doug: yeah, I'll pass. If they troll again (they do it very blatantly), I'll jump at it, but I need to give supportive sample, i.e. feeding).Nov 17 20:39
_doug"Shortcuts even have a different name; they're called Links in Ubuntu"Nov 17 20:39
schestowitz"Eric Geier is an author of many computing and networking books, including Home Networking All-in-One Desk Reference For Dummies (Wiley 2008) and 100 Things You Need to Know about Microsoft€® Windows Vista (Que 2007)."Nov 17 20:40
schestowitzI can see where he's coming from and to be fair the point of the article is to assimilate the two operating system, so simplification might be OK.Nov 17 20:40
_dougI know ..Nov 17 20:41
schestowitzHorowitz at CNET did something recently a while ago introducing people to "The Linux operating system" showing just Ubuntu. I guess it's repellent when jargon and attributions get removed.Nov 17 20:41
_dougFire it up and let them click ..Nov 17 20:42
schestowitzRMS commended the protest in Kerala (the Boycott Novell one)Nov 17 20:43
_dougRemind us, who organized the event, and who attended ?Nov 17 20:45
schestowitzI'm not sure.Nov 17 20:46
schestowitzI had nothing to do with it to be honestNov 17 20:46
schestowitzI think Anivar deserves much of the credit.Nov 17 20:46
schestowitzBN gets like 800,000 hits todayNov 17 20:47
_dougIn that slashdot article mentioning it, you were anonymously trashed .. again ..Nov 17 20:48
schestowitzBTW, I need alerts about BillJackSoft. If he is watched, then he will say the truth.Nov 17 20:48
schestowitz_doug: they already do this. I think it's one of the COLA Munchkins.Nov 17 20:49
_doughttp://yro.slashdot.org/y...Nov 17 20:49
_dougfo'get about it :)Nov 17 20:49
schestowitzDon't link to the libelNov 17 20:49
_dougnope ..Nov 17 20:50
schestowitzIt's almost like a cut and paste accumulative copy of previous smears that put forth false allegations for uncritical readers to believe.Nov 17 20:50
_dougyep, someone is puttign in a lot of overtime, else his tinFoil hat is leaking microwaves :)Nov 17 20:51
_douggtg ..Nov 17 20:51
*kapipi has quit (Remote closed the connection)Nov 17 20:52
schestowitzComputerWorld and InfoWorld reference (and ZDNet, Slashdot..) BN: http://weblog.infoworld.com/openresource/... and http://blogs.computerworld.com/anoth...Nov 17 21:12
schestowitzNew stream of negative F/OSS article from InfoWeek go into an issue. Typical "it's expensive", it's hard to use" chorus...Nov 17 21:30
schestowitzhttp://www.informationweek.com/news/infra... [ There's More To Open Source Net Management Apps Than Cost Savings ]Nov 17 21:30
schestowitzhttp://www.informationweek.com/news/software/... [ Open Source SOA Requires Expertise ]Nov 17 21:30
schestowitzhttp://www.informationweek.com/news/software/open_s... [ Open Source BI Still Fighting For Its Share ]Nov 17 21:30
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schestowitzOpen Source FUD, casting diversity as complexity: http://www.itworld.com/open-source/5752...Nov 17 21:52
schestowitzhttp://blog.internetnews.com/skerner/2... "The obvious question - is if Open Source Software (OSS) is so frustrating in Gartner's view - than how do they explain that 85 percent now and 100 percent within a year are using open source? "Nov 17 21:53
trmancohttp://www.linuxinsider.com/rssto...Nov 17 21:55
schestowitzMicrosoft uses F/OSS (other people's)... even the CIO admits it reluctantly... it's a known fact..... http://www.itworld.com/business/57926/to...Nov 17 21:56
schestowitzPaul Allen is in, Gates is outNov 17 21:56
schestowitzGates was a lawyer-spoliter type from an affluent family and 'connections'.... like Jobs he had a code monkey (think Woz) to do the coding while he did the stealing, the manipulation and the sabotage or rivals. It's good that they left Gates outta there.Nov 17 21:58
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*SubsonicB (n=chatzill@37.Red-88-9-90.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) has joined #boycottnovellNov 17 22:12
SubsonicBhi thereNov 17 22:12
schestowitzHey, SubsonicB. Long time, no see.Nov 17 22:13
SubsonicByeah quite busy at workNov 17 22:13
schestowitzBN is getting information out there, so good progress is made by this campaign.Nov 17 22:14
SubsonicBseen the news about the incidents in India at Novell conferenceNov 17 22:17
SubsonicBunbelievableNov 17 22:17
SubsonicBOT: For enjoyment of the channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX8yrOAjfKMNov 17 22:18
schestowitzIt caught me by surprise too. I then saw the photos.Nov 17 22:18
schestowitzCheck this...Nov 17 22:18
schestowitzhttp://weblog.infoworld.com/openresource/ar... "However, what I find more interesting are the calls to boycott Novell, Suse, and Microsoft products in India. "Nov 17 22:18
schestowitzOops.Nov 17 22:18
SubsonicBinteresting article...Nov 17 22:20
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/1...Nov 17 22:20
SubsonicBheheNov 17 22:20
SubsonicBbeen quite a while offlineNov 17 22:20
schestowitzYou didn't miss much.Nov 17 22:21
schestowitzThe market has slown down.Nov 17 22:21
SubsonicBseems like there is some maneouvers along the torpedo amendments at the EUNov 17 22:21
schestowitzCompanies like Google cancel plans to do things because it's too risky, long-term. Microsoft is the same. The consequence is that you haven't much happening in general.Nov 17 22:22
SubsonicBI am concerned about Sun as wellNov 17 22:22
schestowitzSubsonicB: I may have read it about it. Which one specifically? The MAFIAA wants money and control back.Nov 17 22:22
twitterinfoworld makes classic mistake, "The truth likely lies somewhere in between."Nov 17 22:22
schestowitzYes, Sun is important to defend. They mean well.Nov 17 22:22
schestowitztwitter: yes, I saw that.Nov 17 22:23
schestowitzI know the author... we corresponded before and he's from Kerala... he loves proprietary software, IMHO.Nov 17 22:23
twitterI don't know why credibility would be given to organizers who hid the participation of a sponsor.Nov 17 22:23
schestowitzHe encourages FOSS companies to go mixed and make money at the expense of code producers... but then again, that's the IBM mentality and he works for them.Nov 17 22:24
schestowitzIBM's vice president of open source mailed me today and I gave an almost rude reply.Nov 17 22:24
SubsonicBFOSS companies go mixed = EEENov 17 22:24
twitterOh, if he can make the mistake of liking non free software, he can believe anything.Nov 17 22:24
schestowitzWell, it's about money to him.Nov 17 22:25
SubsonicBI mean as soon as a FOSS company goes mixed it becomes most vulnerable to Extend+Embrace+ExtinguishNov 17 22:25
schestowitzNo offence intended, but money can be an afterthought as many FOSS developers showNov 17 22:26
twitterAs more than one professor corrected me, "If we believe that, anything is possible."  Non free software is about money, but none of it is for users.Nov 17 22:26
schestowitzDrupal, WorkdPress, Apache...Nov 17 22:26
schestowitzRe: "If we believe that, anything is possible." The press writes eulogies for Sun very prematurely and I can't help thinking about The Slog Doc.Nov 17 22:27
schestowitzhttp://www.itbusinessedge.co... <  Can Open Source Really Save Sun? >. They are linking to each other with dramatic headlines... Enderle/Lyons style...Nov 17 22:28
twitterYet the same authors ignore M$'s vanishing cash pile.Nov 17 22:29
SubsonicB"Well, it's about money to him": Due to a personal issue, a long-time worker at my place was fired. At some point these last week I reached the conclussion that most executives become brainwashed in their MBAs coursesNov 17 22:29
schestowitztwitter: that's because Salon and et al sell an imageNov 17 22:30
SubsonicBbrainwashed. trained in such a way that they subvert completely the natural value of scale and they put money topmostNov 17 22:30
schestowitzThey also 'punish' those who contradict the image.Nov 17 22:30
twitterThey will keep doing it till the money runs out.Nov 17 22:30
schestowitzA strong example of this if the Gates Fundation. When you criticise it even just a bit, an army of anonymous hyenas attacks.Nov 17 22:30
twitterThey will vanish with M$.Nov 17 22:31
twitterSee the closing price, under $20 again.Nov 17 22:31
schestowitzSubsonicB: I've know such people. I lived next to MBA students. My ex g/f studies for an MBA.Nov 17 22:31
SubsonicBI mean, they try to use the very same simple logic with every single aspect of lifeNov 17 22:32
schestowitzI've put a MSFT chart up to put things in perspective for readers to see.Nov 17 22:32
twitterOh my.  What's worse?  A spread in Forbes or Playboy?Nov 17 22:32
schestowitzA better chart would be accompanied with buybacks-deducted representation of some sort.Nov 17 22:32
twittercoolNov 17 22:32
SubsonicBthey cannot think beyond money and short-term profitsNov 17 22:32
twitterwhere's the chart?Nov 17 22:32
schestowitzForbes and Playboy--equally harmrful.Nov 17 22:32
SubsonicBlet me check that chart...Nov 17 22:32
schestowitzJust advocating other sorts of material things.Nov 17 22:33
SubsonicBDo you think the recen administration change will affect MSFT?Nov 17 22:33
twitterGlorification of people as objects, manipulation and other "sharp" practices.Nov 17 22:33
twitterWe can only hope for justice.Nov 17 22:34
schestowitzMark Cuban just got bustedNov 17 22:34
schestowitzhttp://www.forbes.com/business/2008/11/17/... "The commission charges defendant Mark Cuban with committing securities fraud by engaging in illegal insider trading."Nov 17 22:34
schestowitzLet him get some time in the chamberNov 17 22:34
schestowitzWater and crumbs... :-}Nov 17 22:35
schestowitzThey should go after the Microsoft VPs that do the same thing now.Nov 17 22:35
SubsonicBits "a pan y agua" in my country...Nov 17 22:35
schestowitzHow does one report or request an investigation?Nov 17 22:35
schestowitzI have evidence of Microsoft at least one vice president doing the same thing.Nov 17 22:36
schestowitzThe issue is, in America white-collar crime is almost being glorified and they treat rich people as though their crimes can never bad as bad as 'the small people's'Nov 17 22:36
SubsonicBI think it is very much the same around the world....Nov 17 22:37
schestowitzSame thing and same sort of hypocrisy when large countries go to war and call the small people who resist them "pirates" or "terrorists".Nov 17 22:37
schestowitzMicrosoft exec dumped stock prior to Red Ring announcement : http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/20...Nov 17 22:38
schestowitzMicrosoft's Bach sold more stock before Xbox news : http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/mic...Nov 17 22:38
SubsonicBDon't tell me, I am just reading "The Shock Doctrine"Nov 17 22:38
schestowitzSeeking Alpha: Insider Trading Hasn't Affect Microsoft Stock - YetNov 17 22:38
SubsonicBlook at citygroup layoffs...Nov 17 22:38
SubsonicBI don't think MSFT can escape the economic situation for long....Nov 17 22:39
schestowitzHere's something for NOVL and MSFT: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do...Nov 17 22:39
schestowitzSubsonicB: they already cannibalize their own speciesNov 17 22:39
twitterPeople are taught that white collar crime is wrong, but the laws only go after small fries.Nov 17 22:39
schestowitzIt terrifies them that they give Windows almost for free (Netbooks) and render Office obsolete with an online version.Nov 17 22:40
twitterThe truly wealthy are protected by a perception of virtue.Nov 17 22:40
schestowitzThey don't know how to make money and keep their scale, i.e. not have to downsize. And worse: they lose many customers to GNU/Linux/FOSS/Google and they panic to the point where they make bogus studies.Nov 17 22:40
schestowitzhttp://blogs.computerworld.com/an...Nov 17 22:41
schestowitz"Boycott Novell did some digging about this latest Microsoft study, and found, just underneath the dirt's surface that ClickStream's senior research analyst is also a former Microsoft Corporation researcher and strategist for the Office product."Nov 17 22:41
SubsonicBand many businesses are going to cut unnecesary expenses... I know officials in my region already looking for counsel about FOSS in order to help local business and local developmentNov 17 22:41
schestowitztwitter: it's easier to catch 'small fries'Nov 17 22:41
schestowitzThey have no money for lawyers and the crimes are less complicated to showNov 17 22:42
SubsonicBwww.theyrule.orgNov 17 22:42
schestowitzJust watch how the MAFIAA relies on poor students settling with them instead of pulling a Tammy and blast them back for extortion, racketeering, malicious spying, eyc.Nov 17 22:42
twitterbanks and IT spending.  I read somewhere they make up 22% of M$ revenue.  http://slashdot.org/~twitter/jo...Nov 17 22:43
schestowitzIt's possible.Nov 17 22:43
schestowitzOne academic keeps telling me that "Microsoft's business is mainly buying and selling its own stocks"Nov 17 22:43
twitterGovernment spending is another big hit, http://slashdot.org/~twitter/jo...Nov 17 22:43
SubsonicBsorry, I meant: http://www.theyrule.net/2004/tr2.phpNov 17 22:44
twitterWith the Pentagon going GNU/Linux, M$ is going to run out of customers fast.  Even schools will dump them when big wigs do.Nov 17 22:44
schestowitzDramatising: http://blogs.computerworld.com/su...Nov 17 22:45
twitterbuying and selling M$ stock.  Is there a living in buying and selling grains of sand?Nov 17 22:45
schestowitztwitter: an important point you must stress over and over again is that Microsoft makes money in very few countries.Nov 17 22:45
schestowitzIn developing nations, not even the GOVERNMENT departments pay for Microsoft software.Nov 17 22:46
schestowitzIf Microsoft charges them, they'll run away to F/OSS. Microsoft understands it.Nov 17 22:46
schestowitzIf it were not for F/OSS, Microsoft would overcharge and rip of f the world like UNIX in the older daysNov 17 22:46
schestowitz.That's what makes GNU/Linux the #1 competition to Microsoft, say Ozzie and Ballmer (they don't name the reasons though)Nov 17 22:47
SubsonicBI think governments are the single major Microsoft customerNov 17 22:48
SubsonicBThat's why they fought so desperately for OOXML becoming ISO-izedNov 17 22:49
schestowitzWell, standards descend from govt.Nov 17 22:49
schestowitzIf the government moves to GNU/Linux (like in Holland), then business needs to follow, then homes.Nov 17 22:49
SubsonicBAnd now with netbooks there is a breach they are scared to death aboutNov 17 22:49
schestowitzIt's a top-down thing. To Sun, investments banks and the like were major clients, so they sufferNov 17 22:50
schestowitzSubsonicB: some sources say that Windows is now 'sold' for $0Nov 17 22:50
schestowitzNot just in developing countries ($3)Nov 17 22:50
schestowitzWindows revenue keeps declining despite the fact that more people gain access to computers.Nov 17 22:51
SubsonicBby now netbooks are no big deal but are a crack in the dam, a crack in their wholesale global strategy of lock-in and extorrtion to the OEMNov 17 22:51
schestowitz_A lot_ more people I should add.Nov 17 22:51
schestowitzWell, some say that sub-notebooks can overtake notebooks.Nov 17 22:51
schestowitzOEM lock-in is being cracked too.Nov 17 22:51
SubsonicBwhat they fear most it that netbooks can prove consumers and manufacturers alike that there is a VIABLE way to escape Windows and all its environment (Antivirus, pay-for add ons, cracks and serials, registration numbres, BSODs...)Nov 17 22:52
schestowitzI think it's about margins.Nov 17 22:53
schestowitzIntel is terrified too.Nov 17 22:53
schestowitzARM is now in this race also.Nov 17 22:53
SubsonicBquite rightNov 17 22:54
schestowitzThey can't just play the collusions routine with Microsoft anymore.Nov 17 22:54
schestowitzThere's competiton.Nov 17 22:54
schestowitzAMD, ARM, GNU..Nov 17 22:54
SubsonicBits a shame that the inferior CISC technology of intel prevailed in the PC-compatible marketNov 17 22:54
schestowitzBTW, I posted something about these collusions in the afternoon. BN FP should still have something.Nov 17 22:54
SubsonicBDo you remember the wintel duopoly?Nov 17 22:55
SubsonicBIts been ages since I am an AMD+Linux only userNov 17 22:55
schestowitzA reader from Brazil suggested that we should do more to expose the crimes of Intel.Nov 17 22:55
schestowitzThey could be a greater threat than Microsoft.Nov 17 22:55
schestowitzThey want a soung/GPU/Wi-Fi/CPU/SSD monopoly..Nov 17 22:55
SubsonicBI remember they wanted to crush VIA as well....Nov 17 22:55
schestowitzThey are in the business of crashing.Nov 17 22:56
schestowitzExtreme capitalism, as RMS calls it.Nov 17 22:56
SubsonicBmaybe through patents, can't quite rememberNov 17 22:56
SubsonicBdisaster capitalismNov 17 22:56
schestowitzImagine if we as humans behaves like companies in the US.Nov 17 22:56
SubsonicBpredatory capitalismNov 17 22:56
schestowitzWe'd kill each other for territory and also  scheme to screw people...Nov 17 22:56
schestowitzSubsonicB: RMS called it "extreme". I say predatory too. Watch what Oracle did to RHTNov 17 22:57
SubsonicBMySQL and SuSE used to be european companies, you know?Nov 17 22:57
schestowitzOr to MySQLNov 17 22:57
schestowitzThey bought companies they don't need just to stab MySQL.Nov 17 22:57
schestowitzSubsonicB: used to. They are still based there, no? Even the OOo team in mostly in Germany.Nov 17 22:57
SubsonicBYes, but now they depend on american decision-makersNov 17 22:58
SubsonicBAnd many american execs are like Warren Buffet: They buy companies and squeeze them to deathNov 17 22:58
schestowitzCan you tell me more about it?Nov 17 22:59
schestowitzMaybe links?Nov 17 22:59
SubsonicBAfterwards they get their golden compensations and go elsewhereNov 17 22:59
schestowitzWhen I speak to people about the super-welathy being super-corrupt I am countered with Bufet as an example. But I don't know enough about his dark side.Nov 17 22:59
schestowitzSlim is a monopolist in Mexico, AFAIK.Nov 17 22:59
SubsonicBThat's something always heard about W.B.: He is always looking for troubled companies, he is a investors in downwards marketsNov 17 23:00
schestowitzAnd then they say... "it's business" (IOW, these are the broken rules granting us the right to do so)Nov 17 23:00
SubsonicBWell, monopol is another added problem.Nov 17 23:00
schestowitzSounds like another IcahnNov 17 23:00
schestowitzThat man sickens me. Yahoo! labeled him a corporate agitators. He has done this for ages.Nov 17 23:01
SubsonicBJohn Kenneth Galbraith wrote that the current state of capitalism is anything but a free marketNov 17 23:01
schestowitzThey call his investor-activist... much like calling Al Qaeda trainers-activistsNov 17 23:01
SubsonicBwhere a handful of companies control completely large sectors of the economy fixing prices and avoiding to competeNov 17 23:01
schestowitzFree market is bad. It says nothing about a 'regularisation term'.Nov 17 23:02
schestowitzit's like letting bad animals loose in a cage... like cock fights.Nov 17 23:02
SubsonicBFree markets don't EXIST!Nov 17 23:02
SubsonicBnot anymoreNov 17 23:02
schestowitzEver/Nov 17 23:02
schestowitzOOps. Typos... Do you mean never did..?Nov 17 23:02
SubsonicB:-)Nov 17 23:02
schestowitzHistory gets rewritten too, you know.Nov 17 23:03
SubsonicByesNov 17 23:03
schestowitzPeople tend to see the more recent renditions of history.Nov 17 23:03
schestowitzJust watch what the press did when Gates retired. They did revisionism.Nov 17 23:03
schestowitzIndian genocide=Pocahontas.Nov 17 23:04
SubsonicBYes, they portrayed him as a benefactorNov 17 23:04
schestowitzHaha.Nov 17 23:04
schestowitzWell, he pays their bills.Nov 17 23:04
schestowitzLike Ziff/GatesNov 17 23:04
schestowitzLook.. open source blog.Nov 17 23:04
SubsonicBThat's ightNov 17 23:04
schestowitzBrought to you by Microsoft Windoss users: http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-so...Nov 17 23:05
schestowitzThe bias is telling.Nov 17 23:05
schestowitzZiff Davis GatesNov 17 23:05
SubsonicBopen source has lost any meaningful senseNov 17 23:05
schestowitzI know.Nov 17 23:05
schestowitzI escaped to Free software last year. I also stick with the FSF 'camp' now.Nov 17 23:05
SubsonicBThe term has been fagocitated (EEEd) by MSFT marketing machineryNov 17 23:05
schestowitzOther people like ESR and ORLY saw $$ and took advantage of those who didn't./Nov 17 23:06
schestowitzNot just Microsoft ruined it though.Nov 17 23:06
SubsonicBAnyway I agree with the opinion that the term "open source" was coined to make free software palatable to the old-minded type of businessmanNov 17 23:06
schestowitzIt was groupwork.Nov 17 23:06
schestowitzMany companies do the JEOO (Just enough open source) routine.Nov 17 23:06
schestowitzLook... here's some scrap of code.. go play with it... GOOD, you see? Now we're good open source citizens.Nov 17 23:07
SubsonicBI think we agreeNov 17 23:07
schestowitzNovell is the extreme case too.Nov 17 23:08
schestowitz"Mixed source"...Nov 17 23:08
SubsonicBthey look at freedom as a medium, a "bait" in order to make money, and not as an end in itself that will procure (freedom) them money as a side effectNov 17 23:08
schestowitzSince 2004 or so they have used this term..Nov 17 23:08
SubsonicBThere is no mixNov 17 23:09
schestowitzFree software->open source->mixed source->hybrid->Windows (with BSD stacks embedded therein)Nov 17 23:09
SubsonicBmix is not the word. The word is contamination.Nov 17 23:09
schestowitzTainting?Nov 17 23:10
schestowitzYou can't say that though.Nov 17 23:10
schestowitzCause that invited GPL FUD.Nov 17 23:10
SubsonicBpollution. legal encumberment €¿does encumberment exist in english?Nov 17 23:10
schestowitzThe 'zealots' of the GPL will come and shoot you down..Nov 17 23:10
schestowitzPollution means mixing.Nov 17 23:10
schestowitzThe connotation is often negative thouygh.Nov 17 23:10
SubsonicBThey attach legal requirement to the usage of free software in combination with their propietary products and the resulting whole is not free neither open anymoreNov 17 23:11
schestowitz"So here it comes - the official position vacant notice. DistroWatch is looking for a new editor of DistroWatch Weekly." http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?i...Nov 17 23:11
SubsonicBSaw that earlierNov 17 23:12
schestowitzLadislav is hanging the DWW towel. I guess that's fair. Other sites do his work better.Nov 17 23:12
SubsonicBHe did a tremendous job all this time anywayNov 17 23:12
SubsonicBLet me ask your opinion about OSNewsNov 17 23:12
SubsonicBI think it used to be much less microsoft-focused €¿don't you think?Nov 17 23:13
schestowitz"I don't intend to disappear from public life completely, but for the foreseeable future I'd like to go through my long and growing to-do list to improve the site and to implement some of the often-requested features."Nov 17 23:13
schestowitzGood. Time for a new theme. :-)Nov 17 23:13
schestowitzOSNews... I don't like it much.Nov 17 23:13
schestowitzThom annoys me a lotNov 17 23:13
SubsonicBNeither do I, but the fact is that I used toNov 17 23:13
schestowitzThey also cover less operating system and more 'toy' systems and vapourware.Nov 17 23:13
SubsonicBAnd now 1 out of 3 pieces of news is about MSFTNov 17 23:14
schestowitzPreoccupation with what's not technical if you know what I mean..Nov 17 23:14
schestowitzSomtimes it's more than a third.Nov 17 23:14
schestowitz*sometimesNov 17 23:14
schestowitzKeep an eye on who submits.Nov 17 23:14
SubsonicBEven when there is no news to report except some vaporware RC announcementNov 17 23:14
schestowitzIt was quiet there for a while, then redone, then they got new contributors.Nov 17 23:14
schestowitzThere are also Novellers commenting there.Nov 17 23:15
schestowitzDid you tell them?Nov 17 23:15
SubsonicBNopeNov 17 23:15
schestowitzI think we have important issues to explore.Nov 17 23:15
schestowitzTo map my mind as I go along.Nov 17 23:16
schestowitzOne thing that cannot be ignored is the relationship between some politics and technologyNov 17 23:16
schestowitz"Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone."Nov 17 23:16
SubsonicBThats rightNov 17 23:16
schestowitzSaid Richard Stallman. Especially now amid turbulance we have a big chance to tap minds.Nov 17 23:16
schestowitzWe need to not only expose but also to map shills and mouthpiecesNov 17 23:17
SubsonicBcant' quite follow youNov 17 23:17
schestowitzIt: 1) helps people know who to listen to; 2) pressure these people to be honest because they are watched.Nov 17 23:17
schestowitzGartner is being slammed now.Nov 17 23:17
SubsonicBSeems the evangelism-is-war is permeating ever more and more sitesNov 17 23:17
schestowitzI think BN had some effect in reducing trust in analysts. Some.Nov 17 23:17
SubsonicBI remember when ther was almost no web 2.0Nov 17 23:18
SubsonicBMost mainstream news sites just told news about MSFTNov 17 23:18
schestowitz"The obvious question - is if Open Source Software (OSS) is so frustrating in Gartner's view - than how do they explain that 85 percent now and 100 percent within a year are using open source? " http://blog.internetnews.com/skerner/2008/11/...Nov 17 23:18
SubsonicBand other proprietary companies (Lotus, IBM...)Nov 17 23:18
schestowitzAlso today: http://www.computerworlduk.com/community... "Gartner's negative spin on the inarguable facts of a massive and increasing open source uptake in companies is FUD, pure and simple. Ignore it."Nov 17 23:18
schestowitzSubsonicB: Mary Jo Foley cites Evanglism leak earlier today.Nov 17 23:19
schestowitzSame with other big sites.Nov 17 23:19
schestowitzBN gets about 800 000 hits todayNov 17 23:19
SubsonicBAnd now most of the relevant nformation (I mean, not advertisements in disguise) comes from the FOSS campNov 17 23:19
schestowitzANyway, mapping forces of Freedom suppression is one thing.Nov 17 23:19
schestowitzThen you can also accumulate more supporters.Nov 17 23:19
SubsonicBThere is no spontaneous sites appearing to comment or to help on proprietary softwareNov 17 23:20
SubsonicBProprietary software cannot have a communityNov 17 23:20
schestowitzThe people in India I didn't know about, but they make many headline and people listen to their talk about freedom. Not ORLY-type "open source" BS...Nov 17 23:20
SubsonicBSo instead proprietary companies send their drones to infiltrate FOSS communities onlineNov 17 23:20
schestowitzProprietary sofwtare has whitepapers...Nov 17 23:21
schestowitzSee how all the major sites weave in stuff from those with $$ (from legacy mostly)Nov 17 23:21
SubsonicBThey hire, buy or blackmail those communities leaders in order to disrupt sincere and spontaneouscommunication inside those communitiesNov 17 23:21
schestowitzThis puts the whitepapers in search engines and helps them produce literature.Nov 17 23:21
schestowitzAs Ziff/Gates goes out of business and CNET sacks en masse, however, they lose this control.Nov 17 23:21
SubsonicBwhitepapers... yeah, yeah, but whitepapers have a problem: The public is trusting them less and lessNov 17 23:22
schestowitzSubsonicB: yes, they have marketing agencies to bribe bloggers too.Nov 17 23:22
SubsonicBThe internet has allowed thatNov 17 23:22
schestowitzAll proven fact, no hypothesis or conspiract,Nov 17 23:22
SubsonicBI mean, the internet has allowed a window of true free speech that have discovered mainstream press lies and conflicts of interests (with advertisers, e.g.)Nov 17 23:23
schestowitzI was taught by someone always to test people who are 'new'...Nov 17 23:23
schestowitzThere are known cases of 'spies' and disruptors being sent.Nov 17 23:23
schestowitzIncluding here.Nov 17 23:23
SubsonicBNow, big comanies, media and politicians are seeking for ways to close that free-speech windowsNov 17 23:23
SubsonicBwindowsNov 17 23:23
SubsonicBwindowNov 17 23:23
schestowitzThere was a Microsoft guy here who published a smear based on IRC... he's not here anymore.Nov 17 23:23
SubsonicBsorry for naming the MSFT productNov 17 23:23
schestowitzYes, that too.Nov 17 23:23
SubsonicBI meant window in a sense similar to "launch window"Nov 17 23:24
schestowitzWhich is why free speech (FFII, Digital Majority, Lessig, EFF) are equally importantNov 17 23:24
SubsonicBSomething limited in time and a chance you must takeNov 17 23:24
schestowitzACTA is coming. Yay!Nov 17 23:24
SubsonicBIt's all about the same as Free SoftwareNov 17 23:24
schestowitzYes, it is.Nov 17 23:24
SubsonicBFree Software is very much about free speech and freedom to acquire and share true and relevant knowledge, the same as Creative Commons and all the campaigns and orgs defending free speech onlineNov 17 23:25
SubsonicBlet me chack something I want to send youNov 17 23:26
schestowitzOKNov 17 23:27
SubsonicBhttp://www.freedomofexpression.us/book.htmlNov 17 23:28
SubsonicBI havent read it fullyNov 17 23:28
SubsonicBbut seems interestingNov 17 23:28
SubsonicBsays many things lessig already told us in "Free Culture"Nov 17 23:28
SubsonicBAnd adds a chapter about Free SoftwareNov 17 23:28
schestowitzCC?Nov 17 23:29
SubsonicByepNov 17 23:29
schestowitzI don't read book, but it's available for d/l I assumeNov 17 23:29
schestowitzLike Gilmore's stuff.Nov 17 23:29
SubsonicBhere: http://www.freedomofexpression.us/documen...Nov 17 23:30
schestowitzI got it bookmarkedNov 17 23:30
SubsonicBmust leave nowNov 17 23:30
SubsonicBas always it's a pleasure to conversate with youNov 17 23:31
SubsonicBHope I had a little more time to comment at BN...Nov 17 23:31
SubsonicBWish I had...Nov 17 23:31
schestowitzYou too.Nov 17 23:32
schestowitz[as always it's a pleasure to conversate with you]Nov 17 23:32
SubsonicBTake care and don't surrender to the trolls and shills... same for all good-hearted BoycottNovellers fighting for freedom!!!!!!Nov 17 23:33
SubsonicBbye!Nov 17 23:33
*SubsonicB has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092510]")Nov 17 23:33

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