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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: November 25th, 2008 - Part 2


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schestowitzIt would be good to show more evidence of their link to Microsoft before they disappear from this planet.Nov 25 16:19
_doug"For ninety (90) days from Your date of purchase, Novell warrants that (1) any media on which the Software is delivered is free from physical defects; and (2) the Software will substantially conform to the documentation accompanying the Software"Nov 25 16:19
_doug 25 16:19
wispygo for it roy :)Nov 25 16:19
schestowitz_doug: what's Windows like?Nov 25 16:19
_doug"Novell will at its sole discretion either resolve the nonconformity or refund the license fees You paid for the Software"Nov 25 16:20
_doug"This benchmark testing restriction applies to You"Nov 25 16:23
wispyroy, i g2g.  im going on vacation and won't be back until monday of next week.  see ya!  :DNov 25 16:23
schestowitzHave a nice time.Nov 25 16:23
wispythanks!  ^_^Nov 25 16:24
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schestowitz_doug: maybe we should deconstruct the EULA and slam it where appropriate (or inappropriate rather)?Nov 25 16:24
_dougVista Eula: "MANDATORY ACTIVATION.. The software will from time to time validate the software, update or require download of the validation feature of the software""Nov 25 16:25
_doug"During a validation check, the software will send information about the software and the deviceNov 25 16:25
_dougto Microsoft"Nov 25 16:25
_doug"When you download licenses for protected content, you agree that Microsoft may include a revocation list with the licenses. Content owners may require you to upgrade WMDRM to access their content"Nov 25 16:26
_doug"You may disclose the results of any benchmark test of those components, provided that you comply with the conditions set forth at"Nov 25 16:26
_doug"LIMITATION ON AND EXCLUSION OF DAMAGES. You can recover from Microsoft and its suppliers only direct damages up to the amount you paid for the software. You cannot recover any other damages, including consequential, lost profits, special, indirect or incidental damages"Nov 25 16:27
_doug"This limitation .. applies even if .. Microsoft knew or should have known about the possibility of the damages"Nov 25 16:28
_dougIF I was the Chief lawyer of a fortune500 company, what IP peace of mind is this legalese supposed to bring me ?Nov 25 16:29
_doug"REMEDY FOR BREACH OF WARRANTY. Microsoft will repair or replace the software at no charge. If Microsoft cannot repair or replace it, Microsoft will refund the amount shown on your receipt for the software"Nov 25 16:30
_dougThis one's strange ?Nov 25 16:31
schestowitzHeh. VistaNov 25 16:31
schestowitzNew feature in Vista: new EULANov 25 16:32
_doug 25 16:32
schestowitzDRM/DMCA?Nov 25 16:32
schestowitzMaybe that's why Microsoft takes CIOs out to dinner... they get drunk and sign such waivers.Nov 25 16:33
_dougWhere do any of these licenses protect me gainst getting sued from loss of confidential customer records ?Nov 25 16:33
schestowitzIt's not about rights.Nov 25 16:34
schestowitzIt's a waiver.Nov 25 16:34
schestowitzIt's about things you lose... rights you concede.Nov 25 16:34
_doughow valid is a license that uses URLs ?Nov 25 16:35
schestowitzReally?Nov 25 16:36
schestowitzNot slef containedNov 25 16:36
_doug"The right to disclose the results of any benchmark test of the Microsoft .NET Framework has been modified."Nov 25 16:36
_doug 25 16:36
_dougMS innovation, the retrospectivly changable contract .. :)Nov 25 16:37
_dougWhat does this mean in english ?Nov 25 16:39
_dougLET A = 'actual damages', B = 'reasonable reliance', C = 'essential purpose', Results = NULL ..Nov 25 16:41
_dougR = [NOT]C [OR]B [OR]A ..Nov 25 16:42
_dougtherfore R always defaults to ZERO .. yea .. I'm confused ... ;]Nov 25 16:42
schestowitzThey won't sueNov 25 16:42
schestowitzI think it's not enforceable and unconstitutional (in the US), but no-one challenged it, AFAIK.Nov 25 16:43
schestowitzDid Groklaw write anything about Microsoft's EULA?Nov 25 16:43
_dougSo it's $5.00 or your money back .. :)Nov 25 16:51
_dougHas any analysis of these EULAs been done elsewhere ?Nov 25 16:55
_dougI don't mean EnderleFUD, I mean in reference as to what 'protection' the enduser receives .. ?Nov 25 16:56
schestowitz_doug: yes, I know a simple English versionNov 25 16:56
schestowitz[H]omer has it in his site too.Nov 25 16:56
schestowitzGot it: 25 16:57
Omar87schestowitz: So, what's that Bilski case?Nov 25 16:57
_doug 25 17:08
schestowitzOmar87: it could end a lot of software patents.Nov 25 17:09
schestowitzIt's good precedence.Nov 25 17:10
schestowitzBilski is the name of the guy whose patent was challenged.Nov 25 17:10
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schestowitz ( Greenpeace names and shames top polluters )Nov 25 17:46
PetoKrauswho's alexH?Nov 25 17:47
PetoKrausexcept being douchebagNov 25 17:47
schestowitzForker of Novell HUlaNov 25 17:47
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schestowitzbblNov 25 17:56
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PetoKraushmm i am watching the w7 promo once againNov 25 18:37
PetoKrausman, that window management is gonna be messyNov 25 18:37
PetoKrausevery tab in IE displayed as a separate popup icon... DUHNov 25 18:37
MinceRwm5 already lists every opera tab as a separate window :>Nov 25 18:38
PetoKrauswm5?Nov 25 18:39
PetoKrauswindows mobile?Nov 25 18:39
PetoKrausisn't it cluttered?Nov 25 18:39
MinceRyes and yes it isNov 25 18:40
MinceRthough by default it doesn't ship with any actual window listsNov 25 18:40
twitterVista EULA, "Malicious Software Removal/Clean On Upgrade. Before installation of the software, theNov 25 18:50
twittersoftware will check and remove certain malicious software listed atNov 25 18:50
twitter (“Malware”) from your device. When theNov 25 18:50
twittersoftware checks your device for Malware, a report will be sent to Microsoft about anyNov 25 18:50
twitterMalware detected or errors that occurred while the software was checking for Malware."Nov 25 18:50
twitterBasically, they can remove any software they want.Nov 25 18:50
MinceRsounds like crApple to me.Nov 25 18:51
twitterIf it's like the XP EULA, they have also granted themselves permission to change the EULA at any time without notifying you.Nov 25 18:51
twitterAll non free software is like this.Nov 25 18:52
twitterControl of people is the purpose of hiding the workings of software.Nov 25 18:52
twitterVista EULA, "Use of Information. Microsoft may use the computer information, error reports, and MalwarNov 25 18:56
twitterreports to improve our software and services. We may also share it with others, such asNov 25 18:56
twitterhardware and software vendors. "Nov 25 18:56
twitterVista is spyware.  The above grants them an unlimited right to inspect and report the contents of your computer.Nov 25 18:57
trmancothis is a beauty -> 25 18:57
PetoKrausyou mean the 403?Nov 25 18:58
trmancohun?Nov 25 18:59
twitterah ha, the Vista privacy agreement is separate. 25 19:00
trmancoforbidden?Nov 25 19:00
PetoKraustrmanco: yupNov 25 19:00
trmancoPetoKraus, 25 19:01
twittermisdirection, privacy statement is here 25 19:01
trmancodon't know why, I just opened itNov 25 19:01
trmancoall working fine hereNov 25 19:01
twitter" The personal information we collect from you will be used by Microsoft and its controlled subsidiaries"Nov 25 19:02
twitter" Microsoft may disclose personal information about you if required to do so by law or in the good faith belief that such action is necessary to: (a) comply with the law or legal process served on Microsoft; (b) protect and defend the rights of Microsoft (including enforcement of our agreements); or (c) act in urgent circumstances to protect the personal safety of Microsoft employees, users of Microsoft software or services, or meNov 25 19:04
twitterUrgent circumstances exist all the time: 25 19:04
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twitterwhatever changes they decide to make, we can be sure that the "right" to sell your information will continue to be granted.Nov 25 19:06
kevin_hey guys, do you think microsoft is going to try and bring the concept of disposable non-transferrable OEM licenses to linux?Nov 25 19:06
twitterM$ will encumber free software anyway they can.Nov 25 19:07
kevin_that sort of thing really males me angry... it's like they're stealing back what you've paid forNov 25 19:07
kevin_makes*Nov 25 19:07
twitterfree software has provisions against that kind of theft.Nov 25 19:07
kevin_yepNov 25 19:08
twittercopy left insures you get the same rights as the OEM did.Nov 25 19:08
kevin_it would be like company x selling you a stereo and prohibbiting you from hooking the speakers up to company y's stereo when the receiver in x failsNov 25 19:09
twitterCreative, Apple and other hardware makers do that kind of thing.Nov 25 19:09
kevin_yep... so do the CD burner makersNov 25 19:10
kevin_i just don't understand why people aren't outraged by itNov 25 19:10
kevin_i guess it is because they don't know about it :)Nov 25 19:10
twitterbecause the conspirators are being careful to tighten the nose slowly.Nov 25 19:10
twitterdamage has been done to hardware sales.Nov 25 19:11
kevin_apparently they even tie the software to the BIOS in the machine to sabatoge peopleNov 25 19:11
twitterNo one wants to buy a large screen TV when they know about revocation lists and are unsure it will work.Nov 25 19:12
kevin_heh... i didn't know that can happen to TVs... i just thought it was blu-ray/hd dvd playersNov 25 19:12
twitterThis uncertainty helped destroy CompUSA and Circuit City.Nov 25 19:13
kevin_*remembers reading about divix and laughs*Nov 25 19:13
twitterAlmost every music rental service has failed besides satellite radio, and that is not doing as well as plain old CDs.Nov 25 19:14
twitterThe more difficult DRM makes legitimate content, the less they can sell.Nov 25 19:14
twitterEven plain old CDs are not selling well.Nov 25 19:15
kevin_even if I wanted to subscribe to a service like that, i wouldn't because they use Microsoft's WMA format and I would be locked in the OEM license game just to listen to my musicNov 25 19:15
kevin_i still buy cdsNov 25 19:16
kevin_it's the only legal way to have lossless files and not be tied to a specific OSNov 25 19:16
twitterUniversities abandoned the rental service because no one used them, even when they were provided for "free" (non voluntary, universal fees levied)Nov 25 19:17
kevin_they shouldn't be including stuff like that in university fees thoughNov 25 19:18
twitterThe US household average for music purchases is about $15/year.Nov 25 19:18
twitterMost people just don't buy canned music.Nov 25 19:18
kevin_all of the cds I've purchased in recent years were released over 20 years ago :)Nov 25 19:19
twitterYou can visit the internet archive or creative commons to find new music.  There are also several streaming music services.Nov 25 19:20
twitterOh dear, M$FT is back under $20 and falling with the rest of the market. 25 19:22
kevin_is that good or bad?Nov 25 19:22
twitterIt is good that M$ dies.  It is bad that everyone else suffers.Nov 25 19:23
twitteralmost everyone that is.Nov 25 19:23
twitterM$'s problems are long standing.Nov 25 19:23
kevin_are you talking about the people who indirectly work for ms?Nov 25 19:24
kevin_pc repair shops, tech support, etcNov 25 19:24
twitterThose people will all do better with software freedom.Nov 25 19:24
twitterThe sooner M$ dies, the better off everyone else in the industry will be.Nov 25 19:25
kevin_apparently they learned their lesson from vista though and 7 will have lower sysreqsNov 25 19:25
_douga falling market, will hot everyone. M$ does have a certain dollar value attached to it, from stock holders, investors etc ..Nov 25 19:25
twitterWindows 7 is still a pig according to benchmarks.Nov 25 19:25
twitterPeople who invest in monopoly greed will be screwed the same way customers, OEMs and employees are.Nov 25 19:26
PetoKraustwitter: i hope it'll remain so :)Nov 25 19:26
kevin_one of the reasons I refuse to get vista is because of stuff like PVP... but i bet that will be in the next version tooNov 25 19:27
PetoKrausi don't think they'll be able to pull of such a massive speed improvementNov 25 19:27
kevin_it would have to be for backword-compatibility's sakeNov 25 19:27
PetoKrausthe funny thing is, they tout, that W7 will be able to run on netbooks. BOLLOCKS i sayNov 25 19:27
twitterThey worked on Vista for six years.  I doubt they can fix it in two.Nov 25 19:27
twitterPerformance matters less than freedom, however.Nov 25 19:28
PetoKrausyeahNov 25 19:28
kevin_that is why i am greatful for wineNov 25 19:28
PetoKrauskevin_: i am not, to be honest. They did nice job, but it's way of bringing proprietary software to linuxNov 25 19:28
PetoKrausi don't like mixing apples with pearsNov 25 19:28
twitterDRM, patent and EULA encumbered Suse, for example, is not as good as distributions without those problems.Nov 25 19:29
twitterIt is good to be able to run non free software that you need in a free environment.Nov 25 19:29
kevin_i agree in part, but it doesn't bother me as much to run, say proprietary games because if they pull stunts like the above mentioned, my PC won't become a doorstopNov 25 19:29
PetoKrausevery distribution has its own problems, though. Beranger could talk craploadsNov 25 19:30
twittercraploadsNov 25 19:30
PetoKrauskevin_: well, games :)Nov 25 19:30
PetoKrausthat's the only case when I actually take my external sata HDD with XP installed for a walkNov 25 19:30
PetoKraushappened twice in last two years.Nov 25 19:31
PetoKrausthe culprit was Deus Ex (1&2)Nov 25 19:31
kevin_deus ex 1 can run great in wine... not 2Nov 25 19:31
PetoKrausyes, it can, but it's quite annoying...Nov 25 19:31
kevin_i play it all the timeNov 25 19:31
PetoKrausi used to use wine for gamesNov 25 19:31
PetoKrausbut then I switched to open-source ATI driverNov 25 19:31
PetoKrauspriority shiftNov 25 19:31
PetoKrausthere are nice Linux games, thoughNov 25 19:32
twitterI'd rather have games run native and free like ID does.Nov 25 19:32
kevin_oh... ouch... i used to use ATI and it was not funNov 25 19:32
PetoKrausNexuiz, OpenArena and WarSow being FPS examplesNov 25 19:32
PetoKrausDune Legacy and Ufo: Alien Invasion being great reworks of old RTS'sNov 25 19:32
PetoKrausand OpenTTD ;)Nov 25 19:32
PetoKrauskevin_: ATI is good now.Nov 25 19:33
twitterWhen it comes to games, I don't mind having a non free console - but I won't hook it up where it can spy on my network.Nov 25 19:33
PetoKrausyou get better, much better support for older hardwareNov 25 19:33
PetoKrausand decent support for the brand-new one (in fglrx only, though)Nov 25 19:33
twitterI don't have money to play games and music right now.  :'(Nov 25 19:34
twitterWhen I do have money, I'll make a mythTV box and hook it to a projector.Nov 25 19:34
PetoKrauswell musicNov 25 19:34
kevin_i stopped buying games because the last one put hidden drivers on my pcNov 25 19:34
kevin_but it's nice to be able to play all the old ones in linuxNov 25 19:34
PetoKrausi am sorry to say, that majority of my music collection is purely uhm, uhm legal....Nov 25 19:35
twitterIf mythTV does not satisfy my urge to play games, I'll get a wii or PS3Nov 25 19:35
twitterCreative Commons is both legal and ethical.Nov 25 19:35
PetoKrausyes...Nov 25 19:35
kevin_get a wii... don't support the company that put rootkits on peoples' machines :)Nov 25 19:35
PetoKrausconsoles are consolesNov 25 19:35
kevin_i have neither of them thoughNov 25 19:36
PetoKrausme neitherNov 25 19:36
PetoKrausi don't game that much. I used to be addicted, so :PNov 25 19:36
twitterThe inlaws beat me to getting a WiiNov 25 19:36
twitterit's funNov 25 19:36
twitterit also tells you to go play outsideNov 25 19:36
twitterI think I'll go do that now.Nov 25 19:37
twitterbblNov 25 19:37
PetoKrausour CS students are doing funny gameNov 25 19:37
PetoKrausit's based on wireless signalNov 25 19:37
PetoKrausbasically you run around Glasgow's west end and send pictures of stuffNov 25 19:37
kevin_coolNov 25 19:38
PetoKrausand receive pictures of stuff and you have to confirm the locationNov 25 19:38
PetoKrausit's based on SSID & GSM signal hashing, AFAIKNov 25 19:38
PetoKrausthey are developing the tech for third or fourth year now, it's one of the PhD's workNov 25 19:38
PetoKrausobviously, they get nice funding, so they can pay the folks playingNov 25 19:38
kevin_i think it would be a good idea to build a device like a tivo that has a usb port on the front and one can plug an ipod in and transfer video to itNov 25 19:39
kevin_that would make a lot of moneyNov 25 19:39
PetoKrauswellNov 25 19:40
PetoKrausmake it a round tableNov 25 19:40
PetoKrausand make it wirelessNov 25 19:40
PetoKrausSURFACE (tm)!Nov 25 19:40
kevin_that's the thing ms is building right? with the multi-touch screenNov 25 19:41
PetoKrauswell.... yesNov 25 19:41
kevin_i saw a video on youtube where someone was doing that with compiz fusionNov 25 19:41
PetoKraus 25 19:41
PetoKraustouchscreens are horridNov 25 19:41
PetoKrausi hate themNov 25 19:41
kevin_PetoKraus: are you a professor?Nov 25 19:43
PetoKraus:D not reallyNov 25 19:43
PetoKrausdo i sound like?Nov 25 19:44
kevin_no... but when you said "our CS students" it made me think soNov 25 19:44
PetoKrausah, yes... i meant CS students from my school...Nov 25 19:44
trmanco 25 20:25
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ReverseGTRgreetings ya'll, I have not been on here for quite awhile so can anyone shed some light on the curcumstances that created this court case and verdict? 25 21:04
ReverseGTRI see that it stemmed off from a lawsuit against IBM: 25 21:06
ReverseGTRwhat I don't get is how and why 2 companies heavily subsidized by M$ would get entangled like this and to whos benefit?Nov 25 21:07
_dougheavly subsidized, who IBM ?Nov 25 21:10
ReverseGTR_doug: SCO and NovellNov 25 21:10
ReverseGTR_doug: well M$ really only granted capital to them to help with legal and marketing expenses I assumeNov 25 21:11
_dougWell SCO is just a stalking horse for MS, and the Novell MS agreement is more recent ..Nov 25 21:11
_dougWell, if SCO owns Unix, then that means Novell don't own SuSE ..Nov 25 21:12
ReverseGTR_doug: but SCO didn't hold onto the copyright for the SRVX Unix codeNov 25 21:13
ReverseGTR_doug: they lost, badly, to Novell.Nov 25 21:13
_dougthat's what his honour said ..Nov 25 21:13
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ReverseGTR_doug: so your saying it may grant Novell to create their own updates and copyright them?Nov 25 21:14
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ReverseGTR_doug: where does the GPL come into this?Nov 25 21:14
_dougFor Novell? .. it doesn't ..Nov 25 21:15
_dougGPL 3 covers upstream patent issues ..Nov 25 21:15
_dougReverseGTR: Novell copyright what ?Nov 25 21:17
ReverseGTR_doug: so they are suffering from a Apple sindrome where they see those who market Linux and create their own repos as Canonical's Ubuntu the enemy, when they don't see the M$ infested zombie in the roomNov 25 21:17
_dougwhat license did Novell release SRVX source ?Nov 25 21:18
schestowitzhey, ReverseGTR. wbNov 25 21:18
ReverseGTR_doug: they seem to be the exclusive proprieters or licensees of it now, thanks to the court caseNov 25 21:19
ReverseGTRschestowitz: not much, just getting ready for the holidays... which include earning extra at a part time job above actually buying muchNov 25 21:19
schestowitzPetoKraus: rejects some browsers. You ain't using IE, right?Nov 25 21:20
PetoKraus:D ffxNov 25 21:21
_doug 25 21:21
PetoKrausit may be my ISPNov 25 21:21
PetoKrausAccess to this website has been blocked because your ISP is one known to be using Webwise.Nov 25 21:21
PetoKrausTo restore full access to this site, please move to a Phorm-free Internet Service Provider.Nov 25 21:21
_doug"there is also the significant portions of SVRx code base that are covered by BSD copyrights and public domain"Nov 25 21:21
PetoKraus[H]omer: honestly, man!Nov 25 21:21
ReverseGTR_doug: Berkley University should sue all the nix vendorsNov 25 21:23
_doug:)Nov 25 21:23
schestowitzkevin_: Vista 7 has the same reqs as Vista, if not worse [still catching us]Nov 25 21:23
ReverseGTRschestowitz: yippie and it looks more like OSX tooNov 25 21:24
PetoKrauswe shall see how it ends upNov 25 21:24
PetoKrausit's funny to see all this copyingNov 25 21:24
PetoKrausit's like - alright, Vista is clean rip off Mac Os XNov 25 21:24
schestowitzPetoKraus: yes, ATI is good now and we can reward them by buying AMD.Nov 25 21:25
PetoKrausKDE 4 is pretty innovative.... but some of the features are already implemented by E17 for years, and by Compiz as wellNov 25 21:25
PetoKrausE17 is quite a nice rip off of Mac Os X... or was it the other way around?Nov 25 21:26
PetoKrausat least the dock part is....Nov 25 21:26
_dougReverseGTR: Bell Labs sued Berkley .. and lost ...Nov 25 21:26
PetoKrausi though Berkley was university for artists. Duh :)Nov 25 21:26
schestowitzkevin_:Surface is just a peripheral. There's no real SDK yet. GNU/Linux could do it before Microsoft... several research groups did.Nov 25 21:26
schestowitzBut Microsoft is a marketing company, so hey! It wasn't invested until Microsoft muscled some journosNov 25 21:27
_dougReverseGTR: so SCO UNIX was actually line by line copied into BSDunix ..Nov 25 21:28
ReverseGTR_doug: brilliant is there a company out there that doesn't want to kill open software development?Nov 25 21:28
ReverseGTRfor their own benefitNov 25 21:28
_dougOnly the one ...Nov 25 21:28
schestowitzPetoKraus: *LOL* Phorm is crime.Nov 25 21:29
ReverseGTRPetoKraus: docks have been around before OSXNov 25 21:29
schestowitzIn the news today: 25 21:29
schestowitz"Is it really so hard to allow open discussion on such a topic? If BT believes that it's reasonable to use the technology, then why not explain why clearly, responding to the critics? The only reason to erase these discussions is if BT knows that what's it's doing is highly questionable, and BT would rather not have to explain itself."Nov 25 21:29
PetoKrausyes, but I'd like to see [H]omer's page ;)Nov 25 21:30
schestowitzBT:Bunch of Turds (and gagsters). Censor *THIS*, BT.Nov 25 21:30
_dougBT is blocking a Phorm blocking device ?Nov 25 21:30
PetoKrausand i kind of refuse to rape some japanese proxy to get there....Nov 25 21:30
_doug 25 21:30
ReverseGTRschestowitz: Bit Torrent's people would sell out its open sourced efforts and users to turn a tiny profit nowNov 25 21:31
schestowitzReverseGTR: Apple patented not the dock.Nov 25 21:31
schestowitzJust some stupid trivial extension.Nov 25 21:31
schestowitzJobs brainfrat [sic]Nov 25 21:31
ReverseGTRschestowitz: you mean like how the icons jump like little epaleptic maniacs when you click them?Nov 25 21:32
schestowitzPetoKraus: (u/p: open;proxy10)Nov 25 21:33
ReverseGTR_doug: what about a Chinese proxy?Nov 25 21:33
PetoKrausschestowitz: niceNov 25 21:33
PetoKrausthough that DOES count as raping someone's proxy ;)Nov 25 21:34
_dougChinese proxy ?Nov 25 21:34
ReverseGTR_doug: yea, like that Firefox extension doesNov 25 21:35
ReverseGTR_doug: it is pretty much suppose to give people the experience of surfing the web in the way people in China experience itNov 25 21:35
ReverseGTR_doug: like one giant AOLNov 25 21:36
schestowitzHow does one check if a site is blocked by the great firewall of China?Nov 25 21:37
ReverseGTRschestowitz: this: 25 21:38
schestowitz"Re: Nice political statement; but who would install it"Nov 25 21:38
ReverseGTRschestowitz: but it doesn't just Simulate like the page states, it literally hooks up your Firefox via proxy to an IP in Hong Kong. So be careful because the PRC will be tracking youNov 25 21:39
ReverseGTRschestowitz: curious usersNov 25 21:39
schestowitz*LOL*Nov 25 21:39
schestowitzWhat's the point of that?Nov 25 21:39
ReverseGTRschestowitz: to give people an idea what China blocks and appretiate the Uhmerican wayNov 25 21:39
schestowitzIs BN blocked? Can you check?Nov 25 21:40
schestowitzThe trolls put BN and GL on Websense, allegedly.. or maybe it's a coincidence.Nov 25 21:40
ReverseGTRschestowitz: nope your page is not blocked by the PRC authoritiesNov 25 21:41
ReverseGTRschestowitz: I don't really care because I know my IP or at least my ISP permits NSA easedropping :PNov 25 21:42
ReverseGTRschestowitz: I mean which major American ISP doesn't these daysNov 25 21:43
ReverseGTRI even know where the closest NSA easedropping point is about a 15 minute drive away from me, perhaps I should stop by and say hiNov 25 21:45
ReverseGTRto a bunch of machines, I hope I didn't effectively ostrasize myself from this channel for stating all that, cyaNov 25 21:45
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kevin_i just know i'm done paying for "licenses" that i can't move to a different pc... it's a scamNov 25 21:50
kevin_topNov 25 21:51
kevin_oopsNov 25 21:51
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schestowitzWhat is this article with BN in Japanese? 25 21:57
schestowitz"つまり,Novellにとってオープンソース・コミュニティ代表という役割は薄れたとうことだ。この提携を切っ掛けに登場したちっぽけなWebサイト「Boycott Novell」の運営者であるRoy Schestowitz氏は,「NovellとMicrosoftが自分たちの道を進むなら,Linuxはますますデータセンターの隅に追いやられるようなものだ。実質的に,Linuxは(WiNov 25 21:57
schestowitzndowsで動いているサーバー上の)ゲスト・マシンとして販売されるようになる。仮想化Windowsの有無にかかわらずLinuxサーバーとしては販売されない」と述べている。"Nov 25 21:57
schestowitzWhat does that say?Nov 25 21:57
schestowitzGoogle expanding or laying off?? Confusing... Google In Search Talks With Russian Social Network < >Nov 25 21:57
*GoblinRFD ( has joined #boycottnovellNov 25 22:04
_doug'The deal appeared on a tiny Web site: "Boycott Novell" under the management of Roy Schestowitz, which said, "Novell and Microsoft would pursue their own path with Linux increasingly relegated to corner of the data center (effectivly running as guest on the Windows server). The virtualized Linux server paying for Windows regardless'Nov 25 22:04
schestowitzWell, that's SLESNov 25 22:07
_dougDivX sues Yahoo over canceled ad agreement ..Nov 25 22:08
_doug 25 22:08
schestowitzYes, some days agoNov 25 22:09
schestowitzApple sued too just now,Nov 25 22:09
GoblinRFDHi Roy (and everyone else)Nov 25 22:11
schestowitzhey there.Nov 25 22:11
schestowitzI've just spotted some very annoying comment from the Monovellsoft trols.Nov 25 22:12
schestowitz_doug: proxy password modifiedNov 25 22:12
*kevin_ ( has joined #boycottnovellNov 25 22:12
schestowitzWoohoo!! Not. British police to be equipped with 10,000 Tasers < > My mate at the gym just told me it's 30k, not 10kNov 25 22:13
schestowitzIt was SHOCKING.Nov 25 22:13
GoblinRFD:)Nov 25 22:14
schestowitzCharge (up) the crooks.Nov 25 22:14
GoblinRFDIve got a new quote......Im quite proud of it (although I modified it from another quote by a chap called George Galloway)Nov 25 22:15
GoblinRFDhereNov 25 22:15
GoblinRFDit goes:Nov 25 22:15
schestowitzNew sadism toys for violent policemen.Nov 25 22:15
GoblinRFD"Leting MS into the opensource scene is like putting Count Dracula in charge of a blood bank"Nov 25 22:15
GoblinRFDand it takes pride of place with.....Nov 25 22:16
GoblinRFD"Computers are like air conditioning, open Windows and they dont work"Nov 25 22:16
schestowitz--LinusNov 25 22:16
GoblinRFDI got the second one from Gutsy GeeksNov 25 22:16
schestowitzUnoriginal then. :-)Nov 25 22:16
GoblinRFDand the first was modified from a comment George Galloway made about Tony Blair.Nov 25 22:16
GoblinRFDThe first is original....ishNov 25 22:17
schestowitzMicrosoft 'bribes' FOSS people to open gatesNov 25 22:17
schestowitzPatent disputes about chip technologies < >Nov 25 22:19
GoblinRFDSorry if Im disturbing any conversations, but here is an excellent short clip for any Startrek fans (its a BSOD joke)Nov 25 22:19
GoblinRFD 25 22:19
schestowitzApple Sued For Patent Infringement < > "An attorney for EMG, Stanley Gibson said U.S. Patent No. 7,441,196 is one of five patents for navigating the Internet on mobile devices and Internet Protocol Television. (IPTV)"Nov 25 22:19
schestowitzOh yeah... I have the GIFNov 25 22:20
kevin_hey wait a minute... last time i checked, my laptop is a mobile device :)Nov 25 22:20
GoblinRFDHave you read over on MS-Watch Joe thinks that there may be a branded MS phone.Nov 25 22:21
kevin_and PDA's have been around for a long long timeNov 25 22:21
schestowitzI'll the vid to the next batch of linksNov 25 22:21
GoblinRFDI have WM on an MDA Mail.Nov 25 22:21
GoblinRFDIt was the worst experience I ever had.Nov 25 22:21
schestowitzI hardly read Joe anymore... no original news there... just PR echoNov 25 22:22
schestowitzMicrosoft has just invented the phone.Nov 25 22:22
GoblinRFDI cant work Joe out, he sometimes prints articles overly pro and other times seems to poke fun at them.Nov 25 22:22
schestowitzI used to feed him with comments, but I stopped.Nov 25 22:23
schestowitzBetter to stay out of Microsoft turf... leads to trolling, annoyance and draws attention to them..Nov 25 22:23
GoblinRFDI think whatever he is, he is quite good at creating discussion.Nov 25 22:23
schestowitzHe's from JupiterResearch... Microsoft shills... Gartenberg and all... bunch of propaganda worse then Gartner.Nov 25 22:24
GoblinRFDHeres the MS comment of the day over on MSwatch " Microsoft is perfectly happy to partner with and support open source companies."Nov 25 22:25
GoblinRFDRoy, I meant to ask, do you have a list of apps that use Mono?  I believe Tomboy and Evolution do, but Im trying to find out all.Nov 25 22:26
schestowitzHaha.Nov 25 22:27
schestowitzAs long as they run on Windows and uses Microsoft's API that Microsoft controls.Nov 25 22:27
schestowitzIOW, Microsoft loves free labourNov 25 22:27
GoblinRFDThat comment was made by a confessed MS employee called Jess MeatsNov 25 22:27
schestowitzEvolution has plguins written in Mono, but the core is clean.Nov 25 22:27
GoblinRFDAh.Nov 25 22:28
schestowitzMicrosoft employee: "we nice and cuddly. Come, come,don't be afraid"Nov 25 22:28
GoblinRFDOr the proverbial clown from the film IT offering balloons to kids in the sewers.Nov 25 22:28
schestowitzMicrosoft management (meanwhile): "Linux violated 235 of our patents and we'll sue if vendors don't pay... and use our APIs"Nov 25 22:28
schestowitzIt's like approaching a clan of cannibals because the 10 year-old kids from there invite you... they ain't headhunters yetNov 25 22:29
GoblinRFD"They all float down here"Nov 25 22:31
*_doug has quit ()Nov 25 22:32
GoblinRFDDo you listen to Linux Outlaws?  Just listening to the latest ep.  Very good.Nov 25 22:33
kevin_yepNov 25 22:33
kevin_it's a good showNov 25 22:33
GoblinRFDgreat chemistry between the two presentersNov 25 22:33
kevin_funny... i'm listening to it tooNov 25 22:33
GoblinRFDlolNov 25 22:33
GoblinRFDIm 40mins into the latest show!Nov 25 22:34
kevin_that microwatch music reminds me of that song from the "80s, "safety dance" or something like thatNov 25 22:34
GoblinRFDHave you heard the Gutsy Geeks theme?  Its very good.Nov 25 22:34
kevin_yesNov 25 22:34
kevin_by bad religionNov 25 22:35
GoblinRFDis it? Ive been looking for it.Nov 25 22:35
GoblinRFDI thought it was something they made.Nov 25 22:35
kevin_i think they should interview someone from xiph.orgNov 25 22:35
kevin_i suggested it a month or so ago in factNov 25 22:35
GoblinRFDThat Bad religion song, do you know what its called?Nov 25 22:36
kevin_nopeNov 25 22:36
kevin_i'm sure you can find the name of it by searching for "bad religion computer song"Nov 25 22:36
GoblinRFDyepNov 25 22:37
GoblinRFD 25 22:37
GoblinRFDThat will be ringtone in a few minsNov 25 22:38
kevin_heheNov 25 22:38
GoblinRFDKevin, are you UK?  The reason I ask is that MS seem to be hammering UK tv with Im a pc ads.Nov 25 22:40
GoblinRFDhave you noticed? (if youre from the UK that is)Nov 25 22:41
kevin_those ads are SO annoyingNov 25 22:41
kevin_i'm in the USNov 25 22:41
GoblinRFDahNov 25 22:41
GoblinRFDThe wife doesnt understand them.Nov 25 22:41
GoblinRFDalthough that doesnt say alot.  She thought Ubuntu was written by Microsoft.Nov 25 22:41
kevin_i would like to see bumper stickers that say "i'm a PC and I'm not running windows"Nov 25 22:42
GoblinRFDI corrected her. I told here that was OpenSUSE.Nov 25 22:42
GoblinRFD*edit Here should read "her"Nov 25 22:42
schestowitzWelte vid (loooks like some win32 laptops among the audience): 25 22:44
kevin_is it just me, or are there more windows ads on tv than there were when xp came out?Nov 25 22:45
kevin_truth be told i'm not a big TV watcher thoughNov 25 22:45
schestowitzI see lots of XBox ads... and WiiNov 25 22:46
MinceRnice songNov 25 22:46
schestowitzFunny lyricsNov 25 22:47
schestowitzJust got this msg: "Here has published an advertisement dressed as an article and featuring an MS talking point recently being spread around the net: If the editors can't admit their mistake, I'd have to say that's the end for  But maybe that was the goal? "Nov 25 22:49
GoblinRFD"but its inability to properly display documents created in the proprietary Microsoft Office formats hinders its widespread acceptance in multi-OS business environments with many legacy .doc and .xls files."Nov 25 22:51
GoblinRFDNot exactly a coding nightmare to fix thoughNov 25 22:51
Omar87lol, guys, you know Paltalk?Nov 25 22:51
kevin_are those rumors about incorporating ads legit?Nov 25 22:51
schestowitzI think so.Nov 25 22:52
schestowitzOmar87: what about it?Nov 25 22:52
Omar87Here's something hilarious about it. :)Nov 25 22:52
Omar87 25 22:52
GoblinRFDI use AbiWord anyway.  I have no need of all the open office features.Nov 25 22:52
Omar87A very old comment for a guy/girl who contacted Paltalk asking for a version for Linux, just read what told him/her. :)Nov 25 22:53
kevin_couldn't somebody just fork it?Nov 25 22:53
kevin_and remove the adsNov 25 22:54
schestowitzLegit Q: Is It McDonald's Responsibility To Stop Nude Photos From Getting Online? < >>Nov 25 22:55
schestowitzoe ewilcox@buckeye-express.comNov 25 22:57
kevin_depends on if the nude photos were illegal... and... touch to decide one way or the otherNov 25 22:57
kevin_tough*Nov 25 22:57
schestowitz"Sounds to me as if they are confusing stable with popularity. I'll bet the real reason they support Windows and not Linux is the roughly 90% Windows market share."Nov 25 22:57
schestowitzUbiquity != popularityNov 25 22:57
schestowitzWindows is unpopular, even among its own usersNov 25 22:57
schestowitzThat's like saying  "flu is popular" in winterNov 25 22:58
kevin_i remember reading an article where ms tried to say that if someone wanted to be "plays for sure" certified, they would only be able to support ms's media formatsNov 25 22:59
kevin_that didn't fly thoughNov 25 22:59
MinceRi like the flu analogyNov 25 23:00
GoblinRFDCan I just ask out of interest.  What distro are people running?  Im Ubuntu 8.10Nov 25 23:01
MinceRalso, FailsForSure. ;)Nov 25 23:01
kevin_sameNov 25 23:01
MinceRubuntu 7.10 (getting ready to upgrade to 8.10)Nov 25 23:01
MinceRmy desktop has 8.04, iircNov 25 23:01
GoblinRFDRoy?Nov 25 23:01
MinceRand the work machine has 8.04Nov 25 23:01
kevin_i was on 8.04, but had to upgrade to get my wifi card to workNov 25 23:01
MinceRand my server is way behind but it's tricky to upgradeNov 25 23:01
MinceR(the boot partition is too small and it breaks kernel upgrades so i'll have to save the whole thing, repartition and copy it back)Nov 25 23:02
schestowitzMandriva here, Ubuntu at home (2 machines) and at work.Nov 25 23:02
MinceR(but that server is also the home router)Nov 25 23:02
schestowitzFedora at the lab though.Nov 25 23:02
MinceRwell, actually this is kubuntuNov 25 23:02
GoblinRFDIve been very happy since upgrading 8.04 - 8.10 - no issues at all.Nov 25 23:02
schestowitz screenieNov 25 23:03
MinceRall my machines have kubuntu except the work machine started out as ubuntu and then i put kubuntu-desktop on itNov 25 23:03
MinceRand the server has ubuntu server on itNov 25 23:03
MinceRand there's an old pc around with win98se because the scanner i inherited only works with it :/Nov 25 23:03
GoblinRFDIve used NimbleX 2008 to bring back to life a few old machines, with great success aswell.Nov 25 23:03
schestowitz2 of my machines are ubuntu w/ kde-desktop (not kubuntu-desktopNov 25 23:03
schestowitzMandrive 2008.1 is betterNov 25 23:04
kevin_slax is pretty coolNov 25 23:04
MinceRhow is it better?Nov 25 23:04
MinceRthere's also fedora 8 on my laptop (on another partition) but it isn't as polished as kubuntuNov 25 23:04
MinceRi used it today while backing up the root filesystem thoughNov 25 23:04
GoblinRFDUbuntu - Satanic Edition is very good/funny aswell.  Ive converted a few metallers to Linux with it!Nov 25 23:05
MinceR:)Nov 25 23:05
kevin_i laughed when i saw it, but haven't installed it on anything yetNov 25 23:06
neighborleeschestowitz, have they reversed position on livecd I wonder  that or its the dvd who knows, but I can easily find least they default to prompting you for the livecd,,either way at least debian is steering clear of mono in default gnome install in lenny.Nov 25 23:06
GoblinRFDbtw if anyone wants that bad religion song, you can download the mp3 from here: 25 23:06
GoblinRFDcant find an OGG though :(Nov 25 23:07
MinceRthxNov 25 23:07
schestowitzneighborlee: no decision changes that I know of..Nov 25 23:07
neighborleekNov 25 23:07
neighborleeill find out soon enough ;)Nov 25 23:08
schestowitzneighborlee: search for new screenie.. see if you spot Tomboy.Nov 25 23:08
kevin_I'm thinking about putting a distro on a 16 gig sdhc card... that'd be sweetNov 25 23:08
neighborleeschestowitz, well its on the main site screenshot at top of page, but no idea if its livecd or dvd or whatrNov 25 23:09
neighborleeschestowitz, its the reguar installer it looks like..which is odd considering they default to  installable livecd on download page so maybe this got up by accident who knows...very inconsistent behavior here. ( and I dont buy that its only a space issue as it was there in 8 ? and not in 9> shrug),,,but anyway that debian wont ship it to me is very key so maybe long as they hold out, others may follow we'll seeNov 25 23:13
neighborleewhich is why debian testing is what im using.Nov 25 23:14
neighborleelennyNov 25 23:14
PetoKrausdohNov 25 23:15
PetoKrausi am listening to the linux outlawsNov 25 23:15
PetoKrausgodnessNov 25 23:15
PetoKraus"Debian ported to G1"Nov 25 23:16
PetoKrausit's NOT A FUCKING PORT you MORONSNov 25 23:16
GoblinRFDJust finished listening to Outlaws.  Great show as always.Nov 25 23:16
PetoKrauswell, i guess we may agree to disagreeNov 25 23:17
schestowitzPetoKraus: It can be customisedNov 25 23:17
schestowitzSame with e17Nov 25 23:17
PetoKrausit's NOT A PORTNov 25 23:17
schestowitzfor EpenMonoNov 25 23:17
MinceROutlaws can be customised? :>Nov 25 23:17
PetoKrausport means you take the code and compile it for different platformNov 25 23:17
schestowitz*OpenMoko.. or Debian for Eee PCNov 25 23:17
PetoKrausand take the code of all the apps, and compile & fix them for different platformNov 25 23:18
PetoKraussince debian already runs on arm, it's not a portNov 25 23:18
schestowitzPorting might involve recoding.Nov 25 23:18
MinceRiirc google did some support for this particular arm cpu thoughNov 25 23:18
neighborleePetoKraus, your caps key is getting stuck <wink>Nov 25 23:18
PetoKrausneighborlee: iT's ThE bLoOdY sHiFt, sOrRy ;PNov 25 23:19
neighborlee:)Nov 25 23:19
*GoblinRFD has quit (Remote closed the connection)Nov 25 23:23
schestowitzShift? Move to automatic.Nov 25 23:24
PetoKrausnah, you get better performance with manual transmissionsNov 25 23:24
PetoKrausyou didn't play racing games much, did you :PNov 25 23:24
schestowitzCheney and other extremists would be proud of their accomplishments:  Amid bankruptcy fears, mood is subdued at L.A. Auto Show <  >Nov 25 23:25
schestowitzPetoKraus: I played too much.Nov 25 23:25
*neighborlee_ (n=neighbor@unaffiliated/neighborlee) has joined #boycottnovellNov 25 23:25
schestowitzOh gads... This Is Change? 20 Hawks, Clintonites and Neocons to Watch for in Obama's White House < >Nov 25 23:26
PetoKrauswell obviouslyNov 25 23:26
PetoKrausdohNov 25 23:26
schestowitzMore sweatshop treaty advocates... well... it could be worse... with Palin in power there would be slaughtering! :-)Nov 25 23:26
PetoKrauswho did actually expect change?Nov 25 23:27
PetoKrausschestowitz: nah, just pr0nNov 25 23:27
schestowitzGIMPedNov 25 23:27
PetoKraus:)Nov 25 23:27
PetoKrauswell, that's unusually good pun ;)Nov 25 23:27
schestowitz*LOL* "The Bush forces generals say that withdrawing the Bush from Iraq is impossible because it would take too much time to pull out all the expensive equipment they have put in place." < >Nov 25 23:27
MinceRautomatic frees your attention to things that actually matterNov 25 23:28
PetoKrausMinceR: like scenery?Nov 25 23:28
MinceRlike trafficNov 25 23:28
schestowitzMinceR: That's why Linux rules.Nov 25 23:28
schestowitzWindows = dysfunctional wizards (stick shift)Nov 25 23:28
PetoKrausMinceR: you just ignore the traffic. Especially in burnout ;)Nov 25 23:28
MinceRif you can afford a tank, yesNov 25 23:29
MinceRbut i don't think performance is much of an issue thenNov 25 23:29
PetoKraushahNov 25 23:29
PetoKrausi guess i should try playing UFO:ai tomorrowNov 25 23:29
*MinceR wants a tank with a serial hybrid engineNov 25 23:29
neighborlee_change is bush gone and obama in..thats all the change we need to know ;)Nov 25 23:30
schestowitzBinIAA is in too.Nov 25 23:31
schestowitzBiden &$& MAFIAANov 25 23:31
*GoblinRFD ( has joined #boycottnovellNov 25 23:32
PetoKraushmm this is weird butNov 25 23:34
PetoKrausi don't think multicultural, or, multiracial society really helpsNov 25 23:34
PetoKrausmy attitude towards different cultures went actually quite down since I came here first time. Maybe it's caused by unpleasant experienceNov 25 23:37
MinceRthe main problem is that they're all humanNov 25 23:37
PetoKrausyes they obviously areNov 25 23:37
PetoKrausit's just, in slovakia, i'd be actually happy to talk to someone differentNov 25 23:38
PetoKrausit happened to me few times, i even abandoned my route and guided some indian guys to the place they were looking forNov 25 23:38
*schestowitz thinks that Matt Peckham guy from PC World seems to be doing lots of MS boostingNov 25 23:39
PetoKraushere, in britain, it's too messy though... it ceases to be funny when you wanna seriously shout at someone because your internet is not working or your gas bill is to highNov 25 23:39
PetoKrausand you can't understand a thing what they are saying!Nov 25 23:40
PetoKrausi mean, I have no problems understanding scotsmen after a year, for goodness sakeNov 25 23:40
PetoKrausi hope it's just temporal....Nov 25 23:40
*neighborlee has quit (Connection timed out)Nov 25 23:43
PetoKrausi guess someone is filtering my traffic and punishing me for my opinions by 4sec lagNov 25 23:43
schestowitzApple Sued Over iPhone Browser < >Nov 25 23:44
PetoKrausoh godNov 25 23:45
PetoKraussoftware patentNov 25 23:45
schestowitzLinuxToday is teh br0ken Nov 25 23:53
schestowitz 25 23:53
schestowitzOh, wait... it;s bad and it's super-slow.Nov 25 23:54
MinceRgnNov 25 23:56
*tacone ( has joined #boycottnovellNov 25 23:59

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