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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 26th, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 4:41 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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schestowitz tessier, I saw that article earlier. Thanks. I posted it along with the latest links. Jun 26 06:05
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cozub morgen Jun 26 08:16
schestowitz Howdy, cozub. Jun 26 08:17
blackrabbit hi cozub schestowitz Jun 26 08:18
schestowitz Good news for Linux today. I’ll post links later, but… RHT’s results are a good start for the morning. Jun 26 08:18
tessier schestowitz: Morning? You are just waking up? You live in Australia or something? Jun 26 08:24
cozub UK, afaik Jun 26 08:26
blackrabbit hi tessier Jun 26 08:26
schestowitz I’ve been waking up around 5AM recently. It’s quite bright outside at that time. Jun 26 08:26
blackrabbit I didn’t see you here yesterday, nice to meet you tessier Jun 26 08:26
blackrabbit I didn’t see you here either cozub or did I? Jun 26 08:26
tessier blackrabbit: I’ve been here for a week or two. Nice to meet you too. Jun 26 08:26
cozub well, I’m mostly idling around and just reading stuff when I have the time Jun 26 08:26
blackrabbit :D Jun 26 08:26
cozub I’m not really keeping up Jun 26 08:27
cozub with the happenings here or @ BN Jun 26 08:27
blackrabbit cozub, if I have not spoken to you, nice to meet you :D Jun 26 08:27
cozub nj, nice to meet you too :) Jun 26 08:27
blackrabbit tessier, I suggested the creation of this channel via tor to schestowitz’s excellent site, to my surprise, he created it! Jun 26 08:27
blackrabbit tessier, I’ve been following schestowitz’s efforts online for a long time now, he really is a hero Jun 26 08:28
tessier Yeah, I’ve been following him for a few years too. Jun 26 08:28
blackrabbit tessier, unlike a lot of active websites, schestowitz actually reads user comments and appreciates them! Jun 26 08:28
tessier Mostly via c.o.l.a. Jun 26 08:29
blackrabbit tessier, he is great, isn’t he? Jun 26 08:29
schestowitz Thanjks, blackrabbit. Jun 26 08:29
tessier yep Jun 26 08:29
blackrabbit schestowitz, thank you :D Jun 26 08:29
blackrabbit tessier, oh, another newsgroup user? Jun 26 08:29
blackrabbit how do you filter all of the newsgroup spam? Jun 26 08:30
cozub does the l and a in cola stand for linux advocacy? :) Jun 26 08:30
cozub (pardon my ignorance) Jun 26 08:30
schestowitz cozub, yes, it’s comp.os.linux.advocacy Jun 26 08:35
schestowitz I only found out about it in 2005. Prior to this I was in technical newsgroups, including the SUSE one. Jun 26 08:35
cozub thx. I heard of that group… but it’s been some time since I stopped reading news; maybe I can give it another try Jun 26 08:37
schestowitz You would probably need filters. There are abusive trolls there. Speaking of abuse, I’ve just cleaned up BN spam. GNAA is still spamming us (N and F words all over the place, as usual). It’s not even comments. They flood the Web (inc. Slashdot) with automated self-promotion. It’s gross to read. Jun 26 08:41
blackrabbit schestowitz, I’ve tried filters but how do you stop them from filtering good information? Jun 26 08:45
tessier blackrabbit: Filter by author Jun 26 08:45
tessier The trolls never post good information Jun 26 08:46
blackrabbit thanks tessier I always filtered by content and it blocked a lot of good posts Jun 26 08:48
tessier You can probably reliably filter on swear words and racial words etc Jun 26 08:49
schestowitz Not all the trolls curse. Jun 26 08:52
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schestowitz OpenSUSE’s fans seem to be in a tizzy. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0… Jun 26 14:00
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schestowitz wb, moparx Jun 26 15:20
schestowitz Eruaran, , seen this yet? http://practical-tech.com/bus… Jun 26 15:32
Eruaran hi roy Jun 26 15:51
Eruaran I just sat down Jun 26 15:51
schestowitz Not the first rant from him (first it was about desktop icons). :-( Jun 26 15:52
Eruaran everybody knows 4.04 isn’t the stable release Jun 26 15:52
schestowitz Yes, I was surprised by this too. The 4.1 branch (testing) ought to be better. The last report from PolishLinux was OK. Jun 26 15:54
Eruaran Yes, the word I’m hearing is that 4.1 is set to be a big improvement and the release the KDE devs are comfortable with as the first stable release thats ready for general use. Jun 26 15:56
Eruaran The fact that there has not been a stable release yet seems to evade some of these people who write reviews. Nobody said it was stable. Jun 26 15:56
schestowitz Discussion here (just left a comment myself): http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/28092 Jun 26 15:59
schestowitz No, 4.2 might be needed for an 3.5-quality release. 4.2 _at the least_. Crashes/error versus user experience is the key At the end (very edn), it’s important to get the latter right. Jun 26 16:00
Eruaran This guys review is just plain stupid Jun 26 16:01
Eruaran He’s taking good features that KDE4 has and slagging off about it without good reason Jun 26 16:01
schestowitz My comment was short and I responded because they shoot the messenger, who is a bit of a friend. I wrote: “Trust Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols: I do trust the man, but watch what he’s reviewing (old version). He needs to be patient. I’m sure it’ll turn around.” Jun 26 16:01
Eruaran “the ‘icons’ have small controls so you can work with the icon itself. Ah… why? This isn’t a Mac, I have a right mouse button key and I’m not afraid to click it.” Jun 26 16:01
schestowitz You reckon he trolls? I never saw him doing that. Honest. Jun 26 16:02
Eruaran This guy is just a dick Jun 26 16:02
Eruaran yes Jun 26 16:02
Eruaran definately Jun 26 16:02
schestowitz The LinuxDevices people sometimes trolled. Jun 26 16:02
Eruaran I have not met a single person who has tried KDE 4 who didn’t like the little controls that light up on icons when you mouse over them Jun 26 16:02
schestowitz I’ll need to read it carefully. I read only the beginning. Jun 26 16:02
Eruaran My mum loves it because it makes sense to her (she doesn’t understand right clicking and holding down shift or ctrl) Jun 26 16:03
Eruaran My boss loves it, he just says, “thats hot” Jun 26 16:03
Eruaran And this guy is demonstrating he knows nothing about usability Jun 26 16:04
schestowitz Cool. By the way, is it true that KDE 3.5 isn’t on the OSUSE CD? Jun 26 16:04
Eruaran dunno Jun 26 16:04
Eruaran I don’t pay much attention to OSuse Jun 26 16:04
Eruaran I think its highly overrated Jun 26 16:04
schestowitz Susan is hyping it up (Tux Machines) Jun 26 16:05
Eruaran People always hype OSuse up… and yet I’ve never been overly impressed when I’ve tried it for myself Jun 26 16:05
Eruaran I don’t get it Jun 26 16:05
Eruaran Ubuntu has much better hardware support Jun 26 16:06
Eruaran “My smallest PC displays are 20.1” these days. There was never enough room on them for KDE 4″ – this is just rubbish Jun 26 16:07
schestowitz Ladislav too… Jun 26 16:07
Eruaran We have KDE 4.1 beta1 on a demo system at work with a 22″ widescreen (not much bigger) and its fantastic Jun 26 16:08
schestowitz I’m not sure about hardware support. I’ve tried both on several computers and both worked quite perfectly without any yinkering. Jun 26 16:08
schestowitz *tinkering. Jun 26 16:08
Eruaran OSuse doesn’t have bad hardware support Jun 26 16:08
Eruaran Just not as good as Ubuntu Jun 26 16:09
schestowitz Novell has the advantage which is those ‘marketing people they hire’. New guy BTW: Jun 26 16:09
schestowitz http://www.novell.com/prblogs/?p=480 Jun 26 16:09
schestowitz I call them Novell boosters because their role (paid for) is to change perception. That’s all. It comes from the term Microsoft booster. Microsoft is a marketing company. Same with Apple. Jun 26 16:10
Eruaran And why are fuddsters still reviewing KDE 4.04 when 4.1 beta2 is out ? Jun 26 16:10
schestowitz OpenSUSE. That’s why. Jun 26 16:11
schestowitz I can’t convince SJVN to skip or ignore the sellouts. Jun 26 16:11
Eruaran I would blame OpenSuse for that Jun 26 16:12
schestowitz He knows people from there. In fact, eWeek gave Xandros and Linspire a lot of publicity; without SJVN, they /still/ do. Jun 26 16:12
Eruaran If they’re pushing it as if its ready for prime time, thats their fault. Jun 26 16:12
schestowitz OpenSUSE also comes with FF beta, IIRC. Jun 26 16:12
schestowitz I don’t want to draw attention to SJVN’s alleged ‘trolling’, so I won’t do a post blaming OpenSUSE.. Jun 26 16:13
Eruaran I think these guys just don’t understand KDE’s development process Jun 26 16:13
schestowitz I think KDE could use marketing muscle. They should have never released 4.0 as though it’s a product but more as a developer’s ‘SDK’ Jun 26 16:14
Eruaran Aaron went to great lengths to explain it on his blog Jun 26 16:15
schestowitz Distros that try to earn ‘cutting-edge’ merit (F9 too) are giving software that’s not necessarily good for all users just yet. Jun 26 16:15
Eruaran So did a couple of the other guys Jun 26 16:15
schestowitz Eruaran, blogs are not seen as widely. Jun 26 16:15
schestowitz I wrote about it too. Jun 26 16:15
schestowitz I had 3.9 running alongside 3.5 at one stage. Actually, it’s still installed. Jun 26 16:16
Eruaran well even less widely now that Aarons has gone private Jun 26 16:16
schestowitz :-) Jun 26 16:16
schestowitz Accident, no? Jun 26 16:16
Eruaran I noticed in the last couple of weeks that he lost patience with people Jun 26 16:17
Eruaran I think he’s just fed up with all the crap being thrown at him Jun 26 16:17
schestowitz Hans for example. Also SJVN… yes, they take it out on him.. Beranger went through the trouble of putting “Seigo” in cartoons. Jun 26 16:18
Eruaran I know myself that people just do not listen Jun 26 16:18
Eruaran And of course Microsoft would look at all this and be quite happy watching the community bleed itself Jun 26 16:19
schestowitz That’s what I was going to approach. Jun 26 16:20
schestowitz A friend of mine who is a professor has watch the BSDs and Linux for decades. He reckons Microsoft games it in subtle ways too. Jun 26 16:21
schestowitz *watched Jun 26 16:21
schestowitz He was also fascinated when I showed him this leak: http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf (Microsoft explains/is taught, among many things, that Microsoft should increase friction among rivals) Jun 26 16:22
Eruaran “KDE 4.1. Beta 2 is aimed at testers, community members and enthusiasts in order to identify bugs and regressions, so that 4.1 can fully replace KDE 3 for end users” Jun 26 16:34
schestowitz From KDE’s site? Jun 26 16:35
Eruaran yes Jun 26 16:35
Eruaran Lets see how many people who review it actually report it that way though… Jun 26 16:36
schestowitz Remember the kernel hacker’s petition? Just found this: http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=819 “nvidia.ko: The NVidia driver is the single component in a KDE4 / Free Operating system stack causing us most of the hard-to-solve problems. In other words, nvidia.ko has grave technical shortcomings.” Jun 26 16:36
Eruaran yes Jun 26 16:36
Eruaran And Aaron has taken a firm stand on that sort of thing Jun 26 16:37
schestowitz Ubuntu devs used to complain (hopping mad) at AMD for making eye candy by default impossible. Jun 26 16:37
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Eruaran The KDE devs are not going to hack about trying to fix something that is Nvidia’s fault Jun 26 16:37
schestowitz I know this because I was there approaching them along with others like Phoronix and those who filed bug  reports. Jun 26 16:38
schestowitz Looking at post AMD’s big announcement archives, I spouted out some serious s* about them, calling people never to touch their products (I have an ATI card on this machines). I was not alone. Jun 26 16:39
schestowitz hi, kentma! Jun 26 16:39
kentma hi schestowitz! Jun 26 16:39
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schestowitz Hi, PetoKraus. Jun 26 16:47
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benJIman schestowitz: firefox final was pushed out with an online update within a few hours from release. Jun 26 16:56
benJIman schestowitz: Also 3.5 is on the DVD, there is not a livecd installer for it. Jun 26 16:57
schestowitz Thanks, that’s what I suspected (about Firefox). As for KDE 3.5, I though the installer was universal and had 3 options (DEs). Jun 26 16:59
benJIman schestowitz: On the DVD yes. The livecds just dump the image onto disk like ubuntu. Jun 26 17:09
schestowitz Hmmm… I never had a DVD drive (let alone a CD burner). Don’t ask. :-) Jun 26 17:10
benJIman Netinstall or whatever would be the same as dvd. Jun 26 17:11
schestowitz Yes, I read about it the other day. I imagine not many people use it. The OpenSUSE site mentioned it only in a Lizard blog. Jun 26 17:11
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AlbertoP You wrote: “OpenSUSE aficionados and Novell sympathisers teased us a little by claiming that OpenSUSE 11.0 was well received. They urged others to believe that there were no negative reviews, but there are actually quite a few, most of which will be shared on Saturday.” Jun 26 20:06
AlbertoP could you provide a reference? Jun 26 20:06
AlbertoP I mean a link where someone opensuse related stated that Jun 26 20:06
schestowitz It was Francis, IIRC, who said this. Jun 26 20:07
schestowitz Others, IIRC, sort of rode on his remarks. Jun 26 20:07
AlbertoP well, link it or the post has zero value Jun 26 20:07
schestowitz Hold on. Jun 26 20:07
AlbertoP plus calling “reviews” review is an insult for real reviewers… Jun 26 20:08
AlbertoP they’re opinions at best Jun 26 20:08
schestowitz You are very assertive. I’ve just had a quick look, but I can’t find it quickly enough. Do a search for the recent OpenSUSE posts and you’ll see it. It’s one of the critiques. Jun 26 20:11
AlbertoP no offence of course, but a review is a scientific process where you examine all the details, compare with others and write your conclusions… Jun 26 20:11
AlbertoP what we read, as I wrote in a comment, are “experiences” Jun 26 20:12
schestowitz Oh, I found one example. Jun 26 20:12
AlbertoP good Jun 26 20:13
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008… (it’s from the troll borgermaster, not Francis) Jun 26 20:13
schestowitz AlbertoP, I agree about the use of the word review, but nowadays people even call a quick tour ‘a review’, so I don’t know anymore. Jun 26 20:13
schestowitz Blogging lowered the barrier to publishers, so reviews can also consist a few paras. Jun 26 20:14
AlbertoP well, the point is the value given to the review Jun 26 20:15
AlbertoP a review on a blog is not scientific at all Jun 26 20:15
AlbertoP most of the times they’re not detailed enough even to reproduce them Jun 26 20:15
AlbertoP and the accuracy is under the soil Jun 26 20:16
schestowitz Yes, if you’re being pedantic… word by word… Jun 26 20:16
AlbertoP it’s not being pedantic, it’s being honest Jun 26 20:16
schestowitz I wouldn’t have bothered with that last post if it wasn’t for remarks from OpenSUSE’s anonymous pos[t]ers. Jun 26 20:16
AlbertoP a review should point out good and bad Jun 26 20:17
AlbertoP with indications to reproduce the problems met Jun 26 20:17
AlbertoP if this is not done, well, the review is, at best, a personal opinion Jun 26 20:17
AlbertoP maybe reliable and honest, but not scientific Jun 26 20:18
schestowitz Okay, are you done ranting about terminology? Jun 26 20:18
AlbertoP no Jun 26 20:18
benJIman “x.1: Bugfix to x.0 to get back to x-1.3 quality/support/compatibility.” is just laughable when you consider 10.1 Jun 26 20:18
AlbertoP I’m just saying that your post about opensuse not being “well received” is simply unsupported Jun 26 20:18
benJIman It’s not necessarily unsupportable, just you havn’t supported it. Jun 26 20:19
AlbertoP and the statement “there are bad reviews when suse guys said the opposite” is unsupported as well, considering you didn’t link to anything Jun 26 20:19
AlbertoP exactly benJIman :) Jun 26 20:19
AlbertoP and well, usually ranting is done using other tones ;-) Jun 26 20:20
schestowitz AlbertoP, fine then. Later I’ll post a heap of OpenSUSE 11.0 rant, some of which are extensive. That’ll make you happier. Jun 26 20:21
AlbertoP well, if supported, I’ll consider them helpful Jun 26 20:22
AlbertoP so suse guys will fix the issues Jun 26 20:22
schestowitz No problem. :-) Jun 26 20:24
AlbertoP all this people should really use bugzilla :) Jun 26 20:25
schestowitz Yes, I know. I don’t post bad reviews. Jun 26 20:28
AlbertoP well, a bad review, but with explanations, is _a_lot_ more useful than a good one Jun 26 20:30
AlbertoP it tells you “hey! we did it wrong, we must fix it bad” Jun 26 20:30
AlbertoP anyway, back to work Jun 26 20:31
schestowitz Yes, agreed. But some people rant if they get angry or waste time. Susan Linton never does this; Beranger does this all the time. Jun 26 20:31
AlbertoP oh well, I’m hypercritical with opensuse myself all the time, but well, there’s a distinction between “the problem I have” and “the whole quality of the distribution” Jun 26 20:32
AlbertoP and this rarely appears in reviews Jun 26 20:32
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schestowitz AlbertoP, especially for you, buddy: http://boycottnovell.com/20… . They are instrutive. Jun 26 21:24
AlbertoP thansk Jun 26 21:25
AlbertoP thanks* Jun 26 21:25
schestowitz No problem. I’m off to bed now. Jun 26 21:25
AlbertoP good night Jun 26 21:26
RogerBacon give a break to open suse guy’s Jun 26 21:42
RogerBacon ;) Jun 26 21:42
AlbertoP RogerBacon, actually that post just says opensuse is good in about 90% of the reviews ^^ Jun 26 21:53
AlbertoP but well… Jun 26 21:53
AlbertoP I’m the one who likes a “distribution with no directions”, because it takes the one I want >:) Jun 26 21:54
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