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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 2nd, 2008

*dsmith_ ( has joined #boycottnovellJul 02 00:29
[H]omerclearJul 02 01:41
tessier_ 02 02:21
tessier_schestowitz: You've probably seen that already but if it's true that xandros is buying linspire and xandros is a party to the Microsoft patent agreement it  could be interesting.Jul 02 02:21
tessier_I used to work for Michael Robertson. I'm not at all surprised that Linspire has turned out this way.Jul 02 02:21
tessier_ 02 02:27
tessier_That's interesting tooJul 02 02:27
dsmith_hehJul 02 02:28
dsmith_wow ubuntu beats everythingJul 02 02:30
dsmith_fedora, xubuntu, kubuntu...etc..Jul 02 02:30
dsmith_hmmmmJul 02 02:30
dsmith_ 02 02:30
dsmith_sadnessJul 02 02:30
schestowitztessier_, thanks. Yes, good URLs. It'll make it easier for me to track companies now (Linspire not required anymore), But that's just me being lazy or selfish. Either way, those who pay Microsoft for Linux set a dangerous precendence.Jul 02 05:35
dsmith_anyone know anything about CPU hardware?Jul 02 05:39
schestowitzI know just a little, why? By the way, dsmith_ , H-P will offer FreeDOS laptops.Jul 02 05:40
dsmith_HP?? oh eally?Jul 02 05:40
dsmith_really?Jul 02 05:40
dsmith_I habe to check that outJul 02 05:40
dsmith_i am looking for a pentium 4 1066fsb cpuJul 02 05:41
dsmith_lga775Jul 02 05:41
schestowitzNot yet though, dsmith_ . I was pleased yo find this out yesterday. They said that they intend to offer the lower-cost notebooks without SLED and Windows.Jul 02 05:41
dsmith_hmmmm are you talking about netbooks as oppossed to laptops?Jul 02 05:42
schestowitzI just got my AMD Athlon (dual core) yesterday afternoon), but haven't had the chance to stress-test it yet.Jul 02 05:42
schestowitzI'm not sure it's a netbook. It's a little more high-end, IIRC.Jul 02 05:43
dsmith_wow $1000 for a pentium 4 1066fsb cpuJul 02 05:44
dsmith_*sigh*Jul 02 05:44
schestowitzIs it for a server?Jul 02 05:44
dsmith_nahJul 02 05:46
dsmith_this is a board I bought some time agoJul 02 05:46
dsmith_ 02 05:46
dsmith_i am surpised that teh CPUs ares till way highJul 02 05:46
dsmith_hmmmmJul 02 05:46
*schestowitz Just followed the URL, still baffledJul 02 05:48
dsmith_its okJul 02 05:49
dsmith_I should just sell that one on ebay and get me a dual quad board insteadJul 02 05:49
schestowitzI have some obsolete hardware at home. The trouble is that it would be hard to find one to whom it's suitable.Jul 02 05:50
schestowitzI need to get a multiplier for my GPU this morning (if that's what it's called).Jul 02 05:51
*baijum (n=baiju@ has joined #boycottnovellJul 02 05:52
schestowitzMorning, baijum.Jul 02 05:54
baijumschestowitz: Good morning !Jul 02 05:55
schestowitzMicrosoft shills are at it again (just found )Jul 02 06:03
dsmith_schestowitz: when you find out about the HP deal, post itJul 02 06:22
dsmith_thxJul 02 06:22
schestowitzI saw it yesterday.Jul 02 06:22
schestowitzHave you been following link digests that I post? :-) Let me find it again...Jul 02 06:24
schestowitzI'm not sure it's a netbook yet... "... HP intends to offer the option of Vista Home Basic, FreeDOS or SuSE Linux Enterprise desktop."Jul 02 06:24
dsmith_typically I will skim thorough themJul 02 06:25
dsmith_must have missed this oneJul 02 06:25
schestowitzIt's not out yet, I think.Jul 02 06:25
dsmith_$900 seems higJul 02 06:26
schestowitzI haven't look closely, which is why I just scan the page for words (that's how I manage to go through lots of news).Jul 02 06:26
dsmith_*highJul 02 06:26
schestowitzIt's worrying that a lot of laptops run versions of Linux that Microsoft is paid for. Linpus has been a recent exception.Jul 02 06:27
dsmith_well everyone's machine that I touch for whatever reason I tell them about the advantages of linuxJul 02 06:28
schestowitzDespite the bad name, I've become relieved every time I saw Linpus because it's the way out from Microsoft tax for some simplified laptops. Are you preaching to people about freedom (terms to use are control, death switches, forced upgrades) or power and cost?Jul 02 06:29
dsmith_i tell them its free software to use, as in free speechJul 02 06:31
dsmith_ppl think 3-old machines are no godJul 02 06:31
dsmith_*goodJul 02 06:31
dsmith_use the the MS upgrade regimeJul 02 06:31
schestowitzIntel?Jul 02 06:32
dsmith_er..I meant they are used to the MS regimeJul 02 06:32
schestowitzI mean, Wintel's regime?Jul 02 06:32
dsmith_yeaJul 02 06:32
schestowitzStan Beer nonchalantly called Vista a Wintel project the other day. Very funny.Jul 02 06:32
schestowitzPeople are educated to think in terms of money.. It's an issue,, especially when people (even Novell) compromise others' goodwill for money.Jul 02 06:33
dsmith_money isn;t everythingJul 02 06:34
schestowitzThat said, by all means, people will realise the fear of computers as they gain more control over the user (kill switches, digital 'manners', DRM detonates entire music collection, etc).Jul 02 06:34
dsmith_i sorta despise the idea, getting out of bed chasing paper for a living, but thats another subjectJul 02 06:34
schestowitzRMS saw this early on.Jul 02 06:35
dsmith_I dont fear machines.... thats for sure..Jul 02 06:35
schestowitzI personally came to feel like I do a hobby. Even my jobs in the past few years (enough to almost make ends meet) were a breeze.Jul 02 06:35
dsmith_well the old saying goes.... Follow your bliss..Jul 02 06:36
schestowitzdsmith_, you might now worry about or fear computers but some enterprise should. They put valuable data under a platform where 40% of all PCs are estimated to be zombies (yes, part of a botnet). Security aside, the financial stake is a huge problem. They have no control whatsoever.Jul 02 06:37
dsmith_i knowJul 02 06:39
dsmith_I do alot of reading..Jul 02 06:39
dsmith_place where I work at has the same potential problemsJul 02 06:39
dsmith_i told certain ppl about installing recovery software and no one listening, so today someone calls me to tell me that thier laptop was stolenJul 02 06:40
schestowitzI have a friend (you might know him) who almost refuses to buy from shops that use Windows to process credit card details.Jul 02 06:40
dsmith_lol, thats a good thing to doJul 02 06:41
dsmith_how do you go about checking for thatJul 02 06:41
schestowitzData theft due to physical loss is another big issue.Jul 02 06:41
schestowitzSome people encrypt personal stuff like pr0n but when it comes to personal records of 50 million _other_ people, they can't care enough.Jul 02 06:42
dsmith_I know, I am amazed that compnaies are not fined heavily for thatJul 02 06:42
schestowitzdsmith_, if site extensions don't say enough, NetCraft might help. Anyway, this guy I talk about had an online brawl with the IT of the company concerned. They tried to explain (with excludes) that Windows does not run at 'the ends'.Jul 02 06:43
dsmith_hehJul 02 06:44
dsmith_online it..Jul 02 06:44
schestowitzConfrontation anyway. Schneier recently wrote about people feeling safe when they shop online (they shouldn't)Jul 02 06:45
dsmith_i dont feel safe, however I have yet to have a prblemJul 02 06:46
schestowitzSecurity cannot comes as a 'feature', 'addon' or afterthought. Some time ago a major chain lost hold of 50 million people's records. Wi-Fi was to blame, but you had to dig in to find this out. They always try to hide it and the Partner Group [sic] recently said that most data leaks are kept secret, never reported (one guy was fired for leaking'). Anyway, Windows had a known severe Wi-Fi/Bluetooth flaws for _years_. Microsoft didn't patch it.Jul 02 06:48
dsmith_tj max incident?Jul 02 06:49
schestowitzYes. I want to budge this a  little on topic, so bear in mind that Gates openly (but behind closed doors) explained what he knew about the severity of security issues. They meet the government too. Most Windows PCs will soon be zombies because it gets worse.Jul 02 06:50
schestowitzThen we have Microsoft's need to rescue Windows (the 7 thing is a mess and I don't tell you this in a fanboyish way). They need to redo things like Apple did years ago (OS X).Jul 02 06:51
dsmith_agreeJul 02 06:52
schestowitzAnd that's where Novell and the licensing come into play. Option 1: buy Novell or use it as a subsidiary while working as a _licensing_ company; Option 2: produce an O/S that combines the best of both platforms.Jul 02 06:52
dsmith_I just dont see them moving fast enoughJul 02 06:53
dsmith_I started setting up linux boxes at teh compnay, but our cfo halted that after he found outJul 02 06:53
dsmith_lolJul 02 06:53
schestowitzI ought to add: Microsoft sees Linux as a greater threat than Linux (it says so) because when you buy from Apple, you pay Microsoft. It's the swpatents model. Then, come to consider Remix, where Shuttleworth pays Microsoft for codecs, per unit.Jul 02 06:54
dsmith_...his line was...we need to stick to standards and MS is a standard for businessJul 02 06:54
schestowitzYou misspelled "was" :-)Jul 02 06:54
dsmith_i still rather stick with linux period..Jul 02 06:54
schestowitzSee this one I found half an hour ago: "CEO's Diary: Linux? [...]The big issue now is email management. If we can manage that and diary scheduling OK (which is a big question) the real issue is when some Linux platforms are now very stable and have long term support, why are we Microsoft based? "Jul 02 06:55
schestowitzI know people who share links with colleagues and managers to have them persuaded.Jul 02 06:55
dsmith_our office just deployed exchange 2003 over my commentsJul 02 06:55
dsmith_now they are complainging about itJul 02 06:55
schestowitzDowntime seems high. There's one Exchange  server where I am and its choas compared to my Linux-based mail server. It also caught some viruses before (yes, the server)Jul 02 06:56
dsmith_interestingJul 02 06:56
dsmith_heh, we are having he same problemsJul 02 06:57
dsmith_down timeJul 02 06:57
dsmith_maybe two a week the thing must be rebootedJul 02 06:57
dsmith_that is thier solution, just rebot itJul 02 06:57
dsmith_it hangs and they cannot remote inJul 02 06:57
dsmith_so they ask me to hard reboot itJul 02 06:57
schestowitzI mean, I hardly have messages ever routed from the server, but it bothers me when Thunderbird always has popups about downtime at that server. Hasn't happened for years on mine (, running on Red Hat)Jul 02 06:57
dsmith_I just yank the power cord out of the back and grinJul 02 06:58
dsmith_and turn it back still takes alot of time to come back upJul 02 06:58
schestowitzThe joys of Windows. Well, be aware that the Microsoft's beloved Yankee Group reports _WORSE_ downtime in subsequent versions of WS (03-08)Jul 02 06:58
schestowitzIt's the Vista of servers. ME 2.0.Jul 02 06:59
dsmith_2008?Jul 02 06:59
dsmith_2003 seems stable, I used that as my desktop OS for ahwile long agoJul 02 06:59
schestowitzYes. Bear in mind that this isn't just opportunistic Microsoft bashing. I try to tell you how much trouble they are in and why they strangle Linux with FUID, threat and other nasties. They envy FOSS.Jul 02 07:00
dsmith_i know.... MS seems painted itself into a cornerJul 02 07:01
schestowitzIn fact, recent MSFT acquisitions are all FOSS-based. It has become so embarrassing.Jul 02 07:01
schestowitzOver a  year ago, someone who had advocated Linux since the 90s saw the attacks coming (e.g. May 2007 FUD). He said that Microsoft won't give up without fighting like a bully. Later came bullying of Yahoo, ISO (for OOXML, etc. Microsoft is totally out of control sometimes.Jul 02 07:03
dsmith_stallman?Jul 02 07:04
schestowitzNo, Roy Culley.Jul 02 07:05
dsmith_MS should just focus on the OS and office softwareJul 02 07:06
dsmith_drop everything elseJul 02 07:06
schestowitzPardon the typos. Anyway, that's why Microsoft needs to be watched, not guarded. It should be on probation/parole, so to speak. I've lost sleep over the need to track OOXML abuses, in the sense that some days I had too many incidents to keep track ofJul 02 07:06
dsmith_hehJul 02 07:06
dsmith_alot of ppl dont care it seemsJul 02 07:07
dsmith_complacent amd MS abuses that and knows itJul 02 07:07
schestowitzdsmith_, these two products are among the few that are profitable (source: Wilcox, Microsoft Watch), but they lose that too because of SaaS.Jul 02 07:07
schestowitzdsmith_, the OOXML abuses are something we need as 'ammunition'Jul 02 07:08
dsmith_well isn;t the EU working them over now?Jul 02 07:08
schestowitzIf a person from country X asks me how Microsoft has _recently_ abused him/her, then I can look it up and give examples. Of course, there's a lot more than just OOXML and  I have an extensive set of examples (Groklaw has a lot more).Jul 02 07:09
schestowitzYes, Microsoft has just sent the ACT and CompTIA shills over there: 02 07:09
schestowitzThe ACT shills confronted me two weeks ago. Also see remarks from GL (last night): 02 07:10
schestowitz[PJ: Yup.  The BSA and CompTIA are riding agin. Yippee-ki-yi-ay, it's a range war, and here comes the pr machine, and along with them dutifully ride some of the media. "The software industry" is expressing concerns?  IP is being "sacrificed"? Or is it some fronts for Microsoft expressing concern? Take your pick. I'm pretty sure Red Hat isn't complaining, and they are part of the software industry, after all....Jul 02 07:10
dsmith_bsa...Jul 02 07:12
dsmith_hmmmmmmm...Jul 02 07:12
schestowitzMicrosoft pays them, so they defend Microsoft. It's the 'ecosystem effect'. Same with OOXML. Microsoft +ecosystem versus the world...Jul 02 07:12
dsmith_ayeJul 02 07:12
dsmith_they protect adobe, autocad, symantec and a few othersJul 02 07:13
schestowitzYes, that's the BSA anyway. All of them have one thing in common too: proprietary. It's no surprise that the BSA has a FOSS-hostile past.Jul 02 07:14
schestowitzExamples here: 02 07:15
dsmith_lol....Example #2: Hypocrisy off the port bow!Jul 02 07:18
dsmith_hmmm I know Vista can be cracked, i did it one time to prove to someone..Jul 02 07:19
dsmith_but I wont even run itJul 02 07:19
dsmith_no needJul 02 07:19
dsmith_with the enconomy goign south, I can see the need for MS waning in my opinion..Jul 02 07:20
dsmith_well I am off to bedJul 02 07:20
dsmith_g'day or night....Jul 02 07:20
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schestowitzCharlie McCreevy is at it again, along with Microsoft's mouthpieces that claim to be speaking on behalf of SMEs: 02 07:37
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ZiggyFishheyJul 02 09:07
ZiggyFishschestowitz: are you thereJul 02 09:07
schestowitzHey buddy. How are you. I was just about to leave for a moment. I need to get something for my new PC. Maybe I'll set up a triple-head. :-)Jul 02 09:12
schestowitzI'll be back in half an hour.Jul 02 09:12
ZiggyFishkJul 02 09:12
ZiggyFishjust wanted to know some good linux news sourcesJul 02 09:12
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schestowitzZiggyFish, are you still there?Jul 02 11:24
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ZiggyFishyesJul 02 13:17
ZiggyFishI'll be back tomorrow nightJul 02 13:35
ZiggyFishc yaJul 02 13:37
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schestowitzHey, RogerBacon Jul 02 16:50
RogerBaconhiiiJul 02 16:50
schestowitzSorry about yesterday. I really had to leave. It's that new PC I got... driving me crazy how it works perfectly out of the box, but it's a lot of work and a distraction from what I normally do.Jul 02 16:50
RogerBacon*** The girls i as a crush on, i didn't see him in last 2 week on MSN :@Jul 02 16:50
RogerBaconno problem ;)Jul 02 16:51
schestowitzWhat's that about MSN?Jul 02 16:51
RogerBaconi dont have is phone numberJul 02 16:52
RogerBaconwas only talking to her on MSNJul 02 16:52
schestowitzOh, I see. I once met a special girl on ICQ. Back in the days. We're still in touch after so many years.Jul 02 16:53
schestowitzSome incognito reporter is boosting Mono. :-S (he must not heard of things like Java)Jul 02 17:22
RogerBaconjava is total crapJul 02 17:31
schestowitzHave you tried it?Jul 02 17:32
RogerBacondo you want the real answer ?Jul 02 17:33
RogerBacon 02 17:34
RogerBaconI love the canadian telco cartel ...Jul 02 17:34
schestowitzI know there's a battle of perception around Microsoft/Sun (Sun is an engineering company, Microsoft is a marketing company). Microsoft was caught gaming some .NET/Java polls, so don't be easily fooled by what you hear.Jul 02 17:36
schestowitzCartels are everywhere. it's hugely important to have them identified and the information publicly shared for those who are curious but cannot research.Jul 02 17:36
RogerBaconwe have telus, rogers, and bell in canada ...Jul 02 17:38
RogerBaconand the competitive bureau just autorised another merge ...Jul 02 17:38
RogerBaconwe have one GSM provider :SJul 02 17:38
RogerBacondid you see the canadian iPhone price ?Jul 02 17:39
RogerBaconthat's disgusting :/Jul 02 17:39
schestowitzI can imagine. The regulatory bodies are easy to influenc3e (corrupt) tooJul 02 17:40
schestowitzToday in the MSBBC: (Google Yahoo ad deal faces probe)Jul 02 17:40
RogerBaconanyway, does java is open source now ?Jul 02 17:41
schestowitzI still opine, as I said in a post a few hours ago, that the Corel/Microsoft deal (and the same for Novell) should have been stopped. Microsoft builds a Trust (as in Anti-Trust)Jul 02 17:41
schestowitzYes. 100% pretty soon. GPL, which means you can run your stuff nicely under you control even 20 years from now.Jul 02 17:42
schestowitzIt's awful when you write open-source (and Free) code that relies on a proprietary stack. I made this mistake with MATLAB.Jul 02 17:43
RogerBaconwell, java seem harder to learn firstJul 02 17:46
RogerBacondid you have tryed eclipse ?Jul 02 18:03
schestowitzNo, I've just had it installed. Some application I used required it (test build). It's a very fast-growing phenomenon.Jul 02 18:06
schestowitzWhatever you do, remember that when you bet on .NET, you bet on Microsoft as a future leader (yet none of the SaaS stream really cares for .NET). Microsoft tries to spread itself to other places using Mono in order to benefit itself, but don't see that as an acknowledgement that .NET is better.,Jul 02 18:08
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schestowitzTThere's an increase in a nonchalant attitude towards Microsoft's abuses ( ). How quickly journos forget...Jul 02 21:10
PetoKrausthat article is bullshitJul 02 21:23
schestowitzThere's another one: (several more out there)Jul 02 21:24
PetoKrauswell, i don't know much about PDFJul 02 21:24
PetoKrausis it really open?Jul 02 21:24
schestowitzHeh. Well, Adobe takes the lead with Acrobat, which is proprietary software. They should really just break it apart and open it up. They make profit from composition tools, not the viewer.Jul 02 21:25
PetoKrausthe acrobat reader is useless...Jul 02 21:27
PetoKrauswhen you get things like evinceJul 02 21:27
PetoKrauswhat i was asking was - is PDF really open, or just some poorly documented open-alike hidden binary blob?Jul 02 21:28
schestowitzAcrobat is bloated and I typically have very little RAM. Either way, expect Microsoft and ECMA to shove a GPL-hostile XPS down ISO's throat.Jul 02 21:28
PetoKrausDisplayLikePDF1.0 :PJul 02 21:28
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schestowitzI don't enough about it. Either way, there's a big difference between standardising light bulbs and turning reference source code to specs after a decade of development.Jul 02 21:29
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PetoKraussureJul 02 21:30
PetoKrausbut it's still a good thing, isn't it?Jul 02 21:30
PetoKrausi mean, i know we are talking about ISOJul 02 21:31
schestowitzISO lost its reputation. But I think they'll ruin IEEE too because they grew closer. The whole thing appears to be industrialised to the point where a standard can be bought. What on earth if ECMA anyway? What is it? Think about it.Jul 02 21:32
PetoKraus"Question: What exactly was supposed to be the point of having an international document standard if the standards committee can't keep their legs closed, so to speak? What am I supposed to do with this three-headed baby? Which two should I lop off?"Jul 02 21:33
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schestowitzMSFT 4:00PM ET 25.88 Down 0.99 Down 3.68%Jul 02 21:57
schestowitzWow!Jul 02 21:57
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jul 2 22:28:23 2008
*Now talking on #boycottnovellJul 02 22:28
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications (publicly logged)Jul 02 22:28
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Wed Jun 4 09:34:16 2008Jul 02 22:28
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schestowitzJust needed to refresh KDE for the first time in weeks. If there's a message I missed while offline, please report. Thanks!Jul 02 22:29

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