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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 21st, 2009 - Part 1

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oiaohmSo browser compadiblity no .net is not better.Feb 21 00:00
oiaohmIf you mean intergration into ADS.Feb 21 00:00
oiaohmYes that is simpler.Feb 21 00:00
oiaohmIt is a addon block of code for PHP.Feb 21 00:00
oiaohmBasically python perl PHP all the open source web development platforms provide you with the means to simple control the html sent to clients directly.Feb 21 00:01
benJImanoiaohm: So does .netFeb 21 00:01
oiaohmReally.Feb 21 00:01
benJImanIn fact more easily.Feb 21 00:01
oiaohmPHP where html is directly emebed in its code.Feb 21 00:02
benJImanThere used to be at least difficulty doing using HTTP PUT with php for example.Feb 21 00:02
oiaohmFunny part need to use a different version of that for lynxFeb 21 00:02
benJImanMaybe you're doing it wrong :pFeb 21 00:02
oiaohmNo.Feb 21 00:03
oiaohmLynx some versions don't respond right.Feb 21 00:03
oiaohmto http put data.Feb 21 00:03
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benJImanEmbedding code in the html doesn't mean you have more control. Generally separation of concerns is better.Feb 21 00:03
oiaohmReally no it is not better.Feb 21 00:04
oiaohmReason you have two files you have to compare when working out a bug compared to 1.Feb 21 00:04
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oiaohmLeast numbers of files wins.Feb 21 00:04
Balrogcan't you do separation of code with PHP ?Feb 21 00:04
Balrog(I'm sure you can with some of the other open platforms available)Feb 21 00:05
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oiaohmYou can stack php on php yes.Feb 21 00:05
oiaohmBut when you get down to what is sent to browsers good coders will do all that code in combinde form.Feb 21 00:06
schestowitzSomeone has just told me: "this is not really an recognized authority. btw http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/200... "Feb 21 00:06
oiaohmJust due to the debuging time it saves.Feb 21 00:06
schestowitzThis is not good for SUSEFeb 21 00:06
schestowitzAnd the author is a buddy of Miguel, apparently.Feb 21 00:06
schestowitzMaybe just know to him and nothing more, who knows..?Feb 21 00:07
oiaohmLOL asp.net does not detect Linux.Feb 21 00:07
oiaohmIt tells me to install silverlight on debian.Feb 21 00:07
Balrogschestowitz: how would that be?Feb 21 00:07
Balrogsilverlight? there's moonlightFeb 21 00:07
Balrogdoesn't even work 1/2 the timeFeb 21 00:07
oiaohmIt says silverlightFeb 21 00:08
Balrogso it's useless for my purposesFeb 21 00:08
oiaohmNo mention of moonlight at all.Feb 21 00:08
Balrogyeah ... wonder if it detects iphoneFeb 21 00:08
schestowitz:-) http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/20... (UK boffin: Social networking causes cancer, heart attacks, lupus, dementia...)Feb 21 00:08
Balrog(which has no plugins)Feb 21 00:08
oiaohmNot a good sign when a site for building web sites cannot detect web browers correctly.Feb 21 00:08
Balrogor for that matter, push unnecessary pluginsFeb 21 00:09
schestowitzMore craziness. First nmap, now this.. State bill would turn RFID researchers into felons < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/20/... >Feb 21 00:09
Balrogplugins tend to be a great big security holeFeb 21 00:09
Balrogschestowitz: nmap? in Germany you mean?Feb 21 00:09
Balrogsecurity by obscurityFeb 21 00:10
BalrogterribleFeb 21 00:10
Balrogand in the US D:Feb 21 00:10
schestowitzWindows 7 on the (Too) Fast Track < http://www.pcworld.com/article/159941... >Feb 21 00:10
oiaohmYet you like using .netFeb 21 00:10
schestowitz"Is Microsoft cutting corners in the rush to market?"Feb 21 00:10
schestowitzBalrog: UK tooFeb 21 00:11
BalrogI'm no fan of .NETFeb 21 00:11
Balrogat allFeb 21 00:11
schestowitzopenbenJIman is a .net fanFeb 21 00:11
Balrogoh.Feb 21 00:11
BalrogI seeFeb 21 00:11
Balrogwhat about Java? Yes, it's overused, but it works and it's openFeb 21 00:11
twitterGlad to see you getting some use out of that image.Feb 21 00:11
Balrog(meaning Java server)Feb 21 00:12
benJImanBalrog: I prefer java.Feb 21 00:12
twitterJust sent you another one and it's parts.  Don't know if you need it, have fun.Feb 21 00:12
oiaohmJava is not the best but it can be aduited completely.Feb 21 00:12
Balrogit's easy to write ....Feb 21 00:12
benJImanoiaohm: What do you mean by that?Feb 21 00:12
oiaohmAlso you do have secoundary engines that will run java if the main one is broken.Feb 21 00:13
Balrogwhat I'm annoyed with is that it's pushed so much.Feb 21 00:13
schestowitz"Wake up, folks. It's all been a big lie." (Vista7)Feb 21 00:13
schestowitztwitter: add that Randall C. Kennedy piece to your profolioFeb 21 00:13
schestowitz"And as for the public "beta" charade, more than one person has accused Microsoft of using the threat of limited availability and a fixed cut-off date as a kind of PR stunt, a way to generate buzz by showing how much pent-up demand exists for their new baby."Feb 21 00:13
schestowitz"Development team responses like "won't fix" or "by design" seem to be the the norm for even serious issues, leading many testers to conclude that the product was feature complete (i.e. no longer subject to significant modification based on tester input) long before they received their first code drop."Feb 21 00:13
BalrogI saw that :(Feb 21 00:14
benJImanOf course that never happens with free software.Feb 21 00:14
Balrogwell, if it happens in free software, YOU can fix it yourself.Feb 21 00:15
Balrognot so with closed softwareFeb 21 00:15
benJImanQuite.Feb 21 00:15
benJImanWhich is why I use free softare :)Feb 21 00:15
Balrogit may be hard to do so, but it's interesting to note the number of patches to free software that Gentoo appliesFeb 21 00:15
Balrog(to fix various things)Feb 21 00:15
benJImanThey should be pushed upstream where sensible.Feb 21 00:16
Balrogyes.Feb 21 00:16
Balroga good number of the patches are fixes for the gentoo build systemFeb 21 00:16
Balrogbut many add functionality / fix stuffFeb 21 00:16
BalrogYou heard of the mess with the Ion window manager?Feb 21 00:17
Balrog(back in 07)Feb 21 00:17
oiaohmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coverity  benJIman tools like this can be run everywhere accross java.   There are other tools that run accross php python and perl as well.  Java still had the annoyance of .net you need the source code to scan it.Feb 21 00:18
benJImanoiaohm: Findbugs is pretty good for java and free.Feb 21 00:18
Balrogyeah. Java does run faster though...right?Feb 21 00:18
oiaohmDepends.Feb 21 00:18
oiaohmgcj or jit BalrogFeb 21 00:18
Balrog?Feb 21 00:19
oiaohmYou will find some java applications like on or the other.Feb 21 00:19
BalrogI see.Feb 21 00:19
Balrogthe newer jit uses HotSpot.Feb 21 00:19
oiaohmHotspot works will on predictable things.Feb 21 00:19
oiaohmgcj does nice general optimisation.Feb 21 00:19
oiaohmIe stuff that will be getting lots of random data feeds into gcj will win.Feb 21 00:20
BalrogI see.Feb 21 00:20
Balroggcj is tricky to set up in my experienceFeb 21 00:20
oiaohmYesFeb 21 00:20
oiaohmIt really comes down to how much you need performance.Feb 21 00:21
schestowitzTroubling times for OpenSUSE < http://www.itwire.com/content/view/23388/1090/ >Feb 21 00:21
schestowitzoiaohm: just don't cite Fortify (MS partner)Feb 21 00:22
Balrog...Fortify...?Feb 21 00:22
benJImanoiaohm: Oh really?Feb 21 00:22
benJImanoiaohm: In fact hotspot nearly always wins on all but very short lived things.Feb 21 00:23
Balroggcj is nice because you can get machine language code... but that's a different useFeb 21 00:23
benJImanSam Varghese has an interesting definition of truism.Feb 21 00:24
benJImanBalrog: So does hotspot, at runtime.Feb 21 00:24
benJImanJust in time compilers have more information to base optimisation on than ahead of time.Feb 21 00:25
Balrogwell, you may not have a JVM installed .... or you may not want to use it.Feb 21 00:25
Balrogit's extra code with extra (possible) bugsFeb 21 00:25
oiaohmhotspot can shot it self in foot trying to make optimisation match a random operation feed benJImanFeb 21 00:25
benJImanWell yeah it's useful for some embedded scenarios where it's not practical to run a jit.Feb 21 00:25
oiaohmOk this section of code has nto been called for a while it can be made slow.Feb 21 00:25
oiaohmbugger it just got called.Feb 21 00:25
benJImanoiaohm: I'm not sure you understand how it works ;)Feb 21 00:26
oiaohmIts really horses for courses.Feb 21 00:26
oiaohmI know how hotspot works.Feb 21 00:26
oiaohmthere are just some java programs that it don't get along with.Feb 21 00:26
oiaohmThe effect is performance improving and droping as it tries to improve the code.Feb 21 00:27
oiaohmNow for something you want running at a constant speed gcj wins.Feb 21 00:27
benJImanFor a constant speed of slow.Feb 21 00:27
Balroggcj is slower than equivalent c code....?Feb 21 00:28
benJImanBalrog: Depends what you mean by equivalent.Feb 21 00:28
oiaohmI have see one java application take 4 times long with hotspot to complete due to the stalls.Feb 21 00:28
benJImanThere are a lot of gross generalisations here.Feb 21 00:28
oiaohmgcc it self does have a annoying flaw.Feb 21 00:28
Balrogwhich is...?Feb 21 00:28
oiaohmNo link time optimisation.Feb 21 00:29
oiaohmThat works well.Feb 21 00:29
schestowitzWhy is Zonker so quiet?Feb 21 00:30
schestowitzSince the layoffs even.Feb 21 00:30
schestowitzNot a word.Feb 21 00:30
oiaohmhttp://llvm.org/Features.html  Using gcc releation llvm java hot spot does have problems.Feb 21 00:30
schestowitzPhoronix has new gcc benchmarks todayFeb 21 00:30
schestowitzhttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=art...Feb 21 00:30
BalroghehFeb 21 00:31
*benJIman has yet to see a phoronix benchmark that isn't hillariously flawed.Feb 21 00:31
Balrogwhen will they move to GCC4?Feb 21 00:31
Balrogtrue, but GCC3 is slowerFeb 21 00:31
Balrogit's like those comparisons of OS X on ppc harware back when they were using GCC2Feb 21 00:31
Balrogwhich has poor optimizations for PPCFeb 21 00:32
oiaohmGcc did something stupid internally.Feb 21 00:32
oiaohmAs well.Feb 21 00:32
benJImanAt least this is testing actually different software, instead of the let's test slightly different kernel revisions at i/o and cpu bound operations!Feb 21 00:32
oiaohmInformation about finally binary sections of it travels in independant structs.Feb 21 00:32
schestowitzThey defend BN..Feb 21 00:33
Balrog?Feb 21 00:33
schestowitzI totally missed that part (page 2)Feb 21 00:34
schestowitz"One must not forger the principle of cause and effect - the search for scapegoats must end at the company's executive suite."Feb 21 00:34
Balrogbut putting out flawed benchmarks isn't too good.Feb 21 00:34
schestowitzit's actually not much of an insult that they blame BN for the failures of Hovsepian and chumsFeb 21 00:34
oiaohmBalrog: ms has put out worse.Feb 21 00:35
Balrogcertainly they haveFeb 21 00:35
oiaohmLike comparing windows 2000 to redhat 7Feb 21 00:35
Balrogand bad studiesFeb 21 00:35
oiaohmyep redhat 9 was released.Feb 21 00:35
Balrog(saying that Windows is less expensive to maintain than Linux)Feb 21 00:35
BalrogI've seen that in printed mag adsFeb 21 00:35
benJImanIt really depends on the scenario.Feb 21 00:36
benJImanIt can be, you could easily prove either with a study.Feb 21 00:36
Balrogwell, I'm working part-time in IT at a universityFeb 21 00:36
Balrogand it's definitely not less expensive (time spent including) to maintainFeb 21 00:37
oiaohmIts like solarias vs Linux.Feb 21 00:37
benJImane.g if you have a microsoft-skilled workforce windows is going to be easier to maintain.Feb 21 00:37
oiaohmIf you are running many servers in one box solarias still wins.Feb 21 00:37
Balrogwell, solaris isn't that bad. True, you have to learn some extra stuff, but it's okFeb 21 00:37
oiaohmNow if its a single sever doing firewalling you would be basically nuts to use solarisFeb 21 00:38
Balrogthe way Sun does stuff bothers me .... they can't stick to openldap and try force you to use their ldap serverFeb 21 00:38
oiaohmTask vs OS.Feb 21 00:38
oiaohmSorry to say Sun LDAP server was designed first.Feb 21 00:38
schestowitzWatch the image at the bottom of this one. Microsoft.Feb 21 00:38
schestowitzhttp://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009...Feb 21 00:38
Balrogmaybe, but it sucks that it can't work cross platformFeb 21 00:39
BalrogI've seen a patch (to openldap) to make it work and it's only like 10 lines! (though that is for an older version)Feb 21 00:39
Balroghttp://www.bolthole.com/solaris/ldap_patch.txtFeb 21 00:39
schestowitzThis one's still hanging about: Cuba to United States: We'll Launch our own OS! < http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/cuba_u... > Bug WIN for GentooFeb 21 00:42
oiaohmMost OS's based of Gentoo end up migrating to something else.Feb 21 00:42
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Balrogoiaohm: why?Feb 21 00:43
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Balrogbecause it changes too often?Feb 21 00:43
oiaohmMostly its package management system.Feb 21 00:43
BalrogI think its package manager is very goodFeb 21 00:44
Balrogyeah, it's tricky to work with, but allows for total controlFeb 21 00:44
oiaohmTotal control bit.Feb 21 00:44
oiaohmMost users + that equals big problems lot of support calls.Feb 21 00:44
Balrogtrue.Feb 21 00:44
BalrogFedora or Debian are probably better choices to start withFeb 21 00:44
oiaohmNo centos not fedoraFeb 21 00:45
oiaohmFedora too much lets test this and hope user don't suffer OS.Feb 21 00:45
Balrogwhy not fedora? moves too fast?Feb 21 00:45
oiaohmFedora is mostly used by redhat to test applicationsFeb 21 00:45
Balrogthe university uses fedora and it works wellFeb 21 00:45
oiaohmI have had all kinds of evil from fedoraFeb 21 00:45
oiaohmFrom ldap servers that don't run.Feb 21 00:46
oiaohmTo dhcp servers that loss track of IP handed out.Feb 21 00:46
oiaohmcentos is a sorted form of Fedora.Feb 21 00:46
oiaohmYep that broken dont ship that out.Feb 21 00:46
schestowitzBalrog: they use Entropy of sabayon)Feb 21 00:47
BalrogFedora 9 was a mess, I heardFeb 21 00:47
oiaohmAlso if you want to minorlly scare you self with warning messages.Feb 21 00:47
oiaohmBuild Fedora's kernel from source.Feb 21 00:48
BalroghehFeb 21 00:48
oiaohmThen build kernel.org version.Feb 21 00:48
Balrogwhat messy stuff do they do?Feb 21 00:48
Balrogyou mean with no patches?Feb 21 00:48
Balrogkernel.org is official right?Feb 21 00:48
oiaohmFedora kernel puts out about 20000 warning messages due to the patches they applied.Feb 21 00:48
schestowitzFor server, just go with centosFeb 21 00:48
BalroghehFeb 21 00:48
oiaohmYep poor quality control on included patches effect fedora badly.Feb 21 00:49
Balroginteresting. Where I'm at they use fedora (true, 7, not the latest) and it works wellFeb 21 00:49
schestowitzIt's a fast cycleFeb 21 00:49
schestowitz6 monthsFeb 21 00:49
schestowitzLet's see Apple or Microsoft do thisFeb 21 00:49
benJImanFedora has a strong emphasis on using the latest upstream without patching.Feb 21 00:49
Balrogtrue. Isn't Ubuntu 6-months?Feb 21 00:49
oiaohmFedora 4 was also stable.Feb 21 00:49
schestowitzNot just some service pack slapped together once in 1-2 yearsFeb 21 00:49
Balrogyeah they use 4 and 7Feb 21 00:49
schestowitzBalrog: yesFeb 21 00:49
schestowitzFedora 10 is goodFeb 21 00:49
schestowitzF11 seems to be going well tooFeb 21 00:49
oiaohm10 a few odd ball services are broken.Feb 21 00:50
schestowitzF9 was problematic all along at the time, but they pulled throughFeb 21 00:50
Balrogwhere I'm at, they do a lot of testing before deployingFeb 21 00:50
schestowitzI didn't try it, but I read many reviewsFeb 21 00:50
schestowitzI sometimes use FedoraFeb 21 00:50
schestowitzWorks VERY wellFeb 21 00:50
oiaohmHopefully at some point Fedora gets true quaility control.Feb 21 00:50
oiaohmNot lucky.Feb 21 00:50
schestowitzoiaohm likes to exaggerate issues :-)Feb 21 00:50
schestowitzAfter all, he runs a Linuxhaters site, so..Feb 21 00:50
oiaohmNo I don't run a Linuxhater site.Feb 21 00:51
schestowitzoiaohm: the newer oenFeb 21 00:51
schestowitz*oneFeb 21 00:51
oiaohmNopFeb 21 00:51
schestowitzThe original one is so yesterdayFeb 21 00:51
schestowitzNo?Feb 21 00:51
oiaohmI go there and pull there logic apart.Feb 21 00:51
schestowitzRedux, no?Feb 21 00:51
oiaohmRedux hates me.Feb 21 00:51
schestowitzOh, so who are you then?Feb 21 00:51
oiaohmSo far he has not put up a single thing that passes logic.Feb 21 00:52
schestowitzAlex the Wintroll said it was you.Feb 21 00:52
oiaohmI run bits on secuirty design and basic design issues.Feb 21 00:52
oiaohmI hate windows mac and Linux in places.Feb 21 00:52
Balrogno one is perfectFeb 21 00:52
schestowitzNokia To Stop Developing Qt Jambi < http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page... >Feb 21 00:52
oiaohmWindows lot more in secuirty.Feb 21 00:52
Balrogexcept that Windows is terribleFeb 21 00:52
schestowitzOh yeah... Nokia was 'good' news to QtFeb 21 00:52
schestowitzSo Qute...Feb 21 00:53
Balrogcome onFeb 21 00:53
BalrogQt is so usefulFeb 21 00:53
schestowitzPretty tooFeb 21 00:53
schestowitzI LOVE Qt -built GUIsFeb 21 00:53
schestowitzI used their IDE before... not much development as much as tweaking thoughFeb 21 00:54
oiaohmgcj cni interface you really don't need java wrappers to use QT from java.Feb 21 00:55
oiaohmYes a lot like .net native call feature.  Except cni is older.Feb 21 00:55
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schestowitzGTK neglected Java somewhatFeb 21 00:56
schestowitzMono and Novell don't help here.Feb 21 00:56
Balrogtrue.Feb 21 00:56
schestowitzThis is something we covered 'bout a year agoFeb 21 00:56
oiaohmMono lacks native call support.Feb 21 00:57
oiaohmReally I think that is very intentioanl.Feb 21 00:57
oiaohmIf they allows that on Linux it would fragment .net a way MS would not like.Feb 21 00:57
Balrogdoes java allow native calls?Feb 21 00:59
benJImanWith jni or jna etcFeb 21 01:00
oiaohmgnu version of it does for AOT built.Feb 21 01:00
benJImanNot as easily as in .netFeb 21 01:00
oiaohmNiether jni or jna required.Feb 21 01:00
benJImanThat's not really java though.Feb 21 01:00
benJImanJNA is relatively easy to use.Feb 21 01:00
Balrogwell in any case, what to do to move away from this SilverLight junk?Feb 21 01:04
schestowitzA Novell Vay is angry about the bosses taking vacations... http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/02/18/novell-five...Feb 21 01:05
Balrogall the video capture software they're looking at uses it D:Feb 21 01:06
schestowitzGreat picture: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/...Feb 21 01:07
Balrogit's interesting that the 'notification' system proposed for 9.04 looks exactly like Sparkle for MacFeb 21 01:08
schestowitzGot a picture there?Feb 21 01:09
oiaohmOf course.Feb 21 01:09
oiaohmubuntu lead said copy MacFeb 21 01:09
schestowitzCanonical’s April 2009 Surprise: More Than Ubuntu 9.04 < http://www.workswithu.com/2009/02/19/canoni... >Feb 21 01:09
schestowitzoiaohm: he's obsessed with AppleFeb 21 01:10
schestowitzShuttleworth can sometimes be a PR disaster IMHOFeb 21 01:10
schestowitzHis remarks on Vista7 and OS X for exampleFeb 21 01:10
schestowitzBy being respectful to the competition he belittles not only Ubuntu but GNU/Linux as a wholeFeb 21 01:10
schestowitzHe's a bad salesman to tell you the truth because both Apple and Microsoft won't do thatFeb 21 01:11
schestowitzMicrosoft still talks about Vista like it's a wonderful productFeb 21 01:11
schestowitzInternally you see how they really feel (unsealed court docs)Feb 21 01:11
schestowitzApple ain't much better with their many defective projects at 1.0Feb 21 01:11
schestowitzBut they have an army of fans of evangelist (paid for, i.e. AstroTurfers) to cherish the DisneyWorld that's Apple.Feb 21 01:12
Balrogyeah, Apple did mess up with open source and allFeb 21 01:12
Balrogbut as a whole, they're doing much better than MSFeb 21 01:12
Balrogat least their software works much better then MS software :pFeb 21 01:12
oiaohmApple has aways been more of hardware company.Feb 21 01:12
Balrogwell, they haveFeb 21 01:13
schestowitzI think of Apple's marketing as "naked emperor" advertising.Feb 21 01:13
schestowitzBalrog: ms has 3rd-party apps going for themFeb 21 01:13
Balrogbut without software, their hardware would be run of the millFeb 21 01:13
oiaohmIpods ....  Really if Apple whent full open source.Feb 21 01:13
oiaohmMost likely they would stay in business.Feb 21 01:13
schestowitzThe what?Feb 21 01:13
Balroglike sony: pretty but not really worth itFeb 21 01:13
MinceRgnFeb 21 01:13
schestowitzThat's utter BFeb 21 01:13
oiaohmThere design guys do know how to make stuff look good.Feb 21 01:14
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schestowitzHi, avuton Feb 21 01:14
avutonHelloFeb 21 01:14
schestowitzoiaohm: not true.Feb 21 01:14
schestowitzIt's marketing peopleFeb 21 01:14
schestowitzDon't confuse the twoFeb 21 01:14
schestowitzThey assimilate imagery and productsFeb 21 01:14
schestowitzApple also polices how it's products are presented and photographedFeb 21 01:15
BalrogMarketing is too important these days. But if you don't do it, you're get behind pretty quickFeb 21 01:15
schestowitzIt's all about some kind of glorification of itemsFeb 21 01:15
Balrogwell before release, I'm sureFeb 21 01:15
schestowitzLike leaders whose people would always picture them from below to make them look mightierFeb 21 01:15
Balrogthe 'fans' actually complain a lot though.Feb 21 01:15
schestowitzLook at APple 'TV' effrotsFeb 21 01:15
Balrogdoesn't MS want that even more? though their products are terribleFeb 21 01:15
schestowitzNo marketing , no goFeb 21 01:15
schestowitzAlso a cr*p product with few featursFeb 21 01:16
Balrogthe ads?Feb 21 01:16
schestowitzLinuxMCE easts it for lunchFeb 21 01:16
Balrogor the TV?Feb 21 01:16
schestowitzAnd cheaper tooFeb 21 01:16
Balrogyeah, until you install the hackFeb 21 01:16
schestowitz:-)Feb 21 01:16
Balrogwhich is soo easy :)Feb 21 01:16
oiaohmto be correct apple spends a lot of time on case design.Feb 21 01:16
schestowitzMarketing alone of the Zune must have cost more than the revenueFeb 21 01:16
oiaohmIt would be nicer if they spent more on features.Feb 21 01:16
Balrogthere's boxee for apple TCFeb 21 01:17
BalrogTV *Feb 21 01:17
schestowitzWith development and production costs, I can imagine the Zune lost 100s of $millionsFeb 21 01:17
Balrogand XBMC.Feb 21 01:17
Balrogyeah definitelyFeb 21 01:17
schestowitzXBox lost over $5bnFeb 21 01:17
schestowitzIt's not cheap bribing game sitesFeb 21 01:17
BalroghehFeb 21 01:17
Balrogso much for the high 'sales'Feb 21 01:17
schestowitzoiaohm: features?Feb 21 01:18
schestowitzNo wayFeb 21 01:18
schestowitzIn Apple world, 1 button is enoughFeb 21 01:18
schestowitzClick to switch on TVFeb 21 01:18
schestowitzClick again to switch off tv :-)Feb 21 01:18
schestowitzPinch to infinge patent :-)Feb 21 01:18
Balrogno, in the apple world, a trackpad with 10 functions is plenty :pFeb 21 01:18
oiaohmCatch you guys around lunch is callingFeb 21 01:18
Balrogthis whole patent thing is a messFeb 21 01:19
schestowitzOk, cool.Feb 21 01:19
Balrogdifferent people give different reportsFeb 21 01:19
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection)Feb 21 01:19
schestowitzOn same ideas?Feb 21 01:19
Balrogsome reports are that the patent is only on how two-finger scroll is determinedFeb 21 01:19
Balrogothers say that it has to do with the 'heuristics' that determine the user's intentFeb 21 01:19
schestowitzOh, I didn't look at the specificsFeb 21 01:19
Balrogyeah, would be a good idea tooFeb 21 01:19
Balrogto *Feb 21 01:20
schestowitzPrior art is usually an analogous action that's well... 'analog', not digital.Feb 21 01:20
schestowitzI guess people having sxual intercourse can be taxed by Apple too.Feb 21 01:20
schestowitzDid you see the Seinfeld episode the "Pinch"?Feb 21 01:20
Balrogwell, I'm sure their heuristics can be patented (like what tech they use to decide whether to scroll only up/down or scroll freely)Feb 21 01:20
schestowitzWhere George 'steals' Jerry's 'move'?Feb 21 01:20
*Balrog doesn't watch tvFeb 21 01:21
schestowitzI don't anymore, either, except a few times a week.Feb 21 01:22
BalrogI see.Feb 21 01:23
BalrogWell I'd look at the patent's specificsFeb 21 01:23
BalrogI've heard various reports. Some say it has to do with determining how to scrollFeb 21 01:23
BalrogAsus has two-finger scroll in the eeepcFeb 21 01:24
Balrogin any case, all the stuff I read is very mixedFeb 21 01:31
Balrogsome say it's "all-encompassing" while some say it's specificFeb 21 01:32
Balrogso it seems that reading the patent would be the best way to figure outFeb 21 01:32
schestowitzbrbFeb 21 01:37
schestowitzNovellers piss me off.Feb 21 01:37
schestowitz"distract" rather... attacks in the comments that need replying fastyFeb 21 01:37
schestowitz*fastFeb 21 01:37
twittersubmitted Kennedy.  Modded down, just like previous submission.  http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=vi...Feb 21 01:38
twitterhttp://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?...Feb 21 01:39
schestowitzSee http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/20/nove...Feb 21 01:42
Balrogsee http://i.gizmodo.com/5142445/disse...Feb 21 01:42
Balrogabout the patentFeb 21 01:42
Balrogof course, it may not be totally correct.Feb 21 01:42
Balrogor unbiasedFeb 21 01:42
Balrogfor that matterFeb 21 01:42
schestowitzThat post hit a nerve at NovellFeb 21 01:44
schestowitzApple's patent has hurt 2 Linux devicesFeb 21 01:44
Balrogmeaning Android?Feb 21 01:44
schestowitzAndroid reporrtedly rm-ed a feature and Palm was reprimanded.dFeb 21 01:44
BalrogI didn't hear that Palm was reprimanded directlyFeb 21 01:45
schestowitzI wrote about this in the patent roundups in BNFeb 21 01:45
BalrogApple just said they'd 'defend their IP from being ripped off'Feb 21 01:45
schestowitzJust in their meeting minutes or somethingFeb 21 01:45
schestowitzBut maybe there was also direct coversationFeb 21 01:45
schestowitzNobody knows..Feb 21 01:45
BalrogI don't know.Feb 21 01:46
schestowitzhttp://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry4019.html "These moves suggest to me that Apples fears competition, and I'm wondering why. If you put their products on an even playing field and let the buyer decide, in my opinion, Apple is going to win hands-down."Feb 21 01:46
Balrogwe'll see when it all pans outFeb 21 01:46
schestowitzMac fan by the wayFeb 21 01:46
Balrogby the way, about the Android, they'd better do multitouch right if they do it at allFeb 21 01:46
Balrogwe don't know all the circumstances of the decisionFeb 21 01:47
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Balrogmaybe it goes much deeper than we thinkFeb 21 01:47
Balrog(possibly google's multitouch sucked?)Feb 21 01:47
schestowitzHow can it suck?Feb 21 01:47
schestowitzIt's a simple ideaFeb 21 01:47
schestowitzIt's not even newFeb 21 01:47
Balrogdepending on how you implement itFeb 21 01:48
schestowitzCombining ideas is not innovationFeb 21 01:48
schestowitzIt's progressFeb 21 01:48
Balrogyeah, pinch zoom and scroll and all that seem obviousFeb 21 01:48
Balrogbut the technology that makes it work is what mattersFeb 21 01:48
Balrogscroll and pinch and rotate to zoom are obvious IMOFeb 21 01:49
Balrogand can't be patented per seFeb 21 01:50
Balroghow you detect the user's intent (whether the user wants to click, scroll, etc) may be a different storyFeb 21 01:50
schestowitzsubpixel huntint too.Feb 21 01:50
schestowitz*hintingFeb 21 01:50
Balrogwell who has the patent on that?Feb 21 01:51
Balrognot MS?Feb 21 01:52
benJImanMS have some for cleartype and apple have others too.Feb 21 01:54
BalrogI see.Feb 21 01:54
schestowitzIt's stupid mathsFeb 21 01:55
twitterAnonymous and nO'Brain nit picking and libel, again.Feb 21 01:55
schestowitzAlso interpretation of fingers is something that's well... axiomatic almostFeb 21 01:55
schestowitzYou're blocking areas of scienceFeb 21 01:55
Balrogit's weird how people argue whether Apple or MS does better with font renderingFeb 21 01:55
schestowitzFencing against developmentFeb 21 01:55
schestowitzThat's why it's called intellectual monopoliesFeb 21 01:55
schestowitzIt impedes competitionFeb 21 01:55
Balrogheh. well we'll see what happens when the pre comes outFeb 21 01:55
schestowitzDo something and then block replication, even if totally independent because it's obvious.Feb 21 01:56
Balrogif it's obvious, it won't stand up in court.Feb 21 01:56
schestowitzThe fact that Palm is pressure with words is enough to show what cowards Apple areFeb 21 01:56
schestowitzThey shouldn't do thatFeb 21 01:56
schestowitzMicrosoft did this to Linux tooFeb 21 01:56
schestowitzMany times in factFeb 21 01:56
schestowitzThe dark clouds always over one's heads.Feb 21 01:56
schestowitzbenJIman know... his 'buddies' at Novell contributed to thisFeb 21 01:57
schestowitz*knowsFeb 21 01:57
twitterSoftware patents are always like that.Feb 21 01:57
Balrogsoftware patents are a mess.Feb 21 01:57
Balrog"After long arguments, the judge insisted on an analysis of specific GUI elements that Apple claimed were infringements. Apple came up with a list of 189 GUI elements; the judge decided that 179 of these elements had been licensed to Microsoft in the Windows 1.0 agreement, and most of the remaining 10 elements were not copyrightable—either they were unoriginal to Apple, or they were the only possible way of expressing aFeb 21 01:57
Balrogon the Apple vs. MS suitFeb 21 01:57
twitterthey should not exist.  software is not an invention, it's an expression of instructionsFeb 21 01:58
schestowitzWhen I implement something the last thing I think of is "hey, let's block others from doing this"Feb 21 01:58
schestowitzThe guy who invented the web cookie said it took him an hour to doFeb 21 01:58
schestowitzIt would take him weeks or months to get a silly pieace of paper on itFeb 21 01:58
BalrogyeahFeb 21 01:58
twitterThe first thing people who buy code think is "let's make sure this is ours and no one else's"Feb 21 01:58
schestowitzSo some other company obtained a patent on 'his' 'invention'... the Web cookieFeb 21 01:58
schestowitztwitter: you should see Miguel and MS interview..Feb 21 01:59
schestowitzThey say exactly that.Feb 21 01:59
schestowitzHold onFeb 21 01:59
twitterpeople who buy code have a tendency to think of it as something you can put in a box and sellFeb 21 01:59
Balrogunfortunately they do exist.Feb 21 01:59
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/19/eu...Feb 21 01:59
schestowitz"Also check out the bit (a few minutes later) where Carmine tries to redefine “open source” (”we recently open sourced the base-class libraries”), and later on protests (paraphrased) “Sometimes … you’ve got IP. It’s mine, it’s mine, I don’t want it to be yours. It’s my IP.”Feb 21 01:59
schestowitz"Feb 21 01:59
twitterthere are many injustices in the world.  they must be removedFeb 21 01:59
BalrogWell you can sell code. But if someone independently figures out how to do exactly the same thing, they should not be suedFeb 21 01:59
twitterexactly.Feb 21 02:00
schestowitzCarmine BTW is the Microsoft lackey.Feb 21 02:00
BalrogClosed-source has its place. But preventing someone from independently figuring out the same exact thing isn't exactly rightFeb 21 02:00
schestowitzMiguel is there too with them...Feb 21 02:00
schestowitzThe whole 'extended family' (Novell&Miguel&MS)Feb 21 02:00
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/u...Feb 21 02:01
twitterdenying people the 0th software freedom is about as wrong as laws can be.Feb 21 02:02
schestowitzBalrog: it's not just that. Sometimes patents stand in the way of merely making two thing work together... hence the danger of patent/s-encumbered standards (even RAND)Feb 21 02:02
twitteryou have the right to make your computer do your tasksFeb 21 02:02
twitterno one should be able to tell you what you can't do with your own codeFeb 21 02:02
Balrogyeah that's really bad. but if what I said was true (you can figure out how to do something, say reverse engineer a file format without 'inside knowledge) that holdsFeb 21 02:03
twitteryou should be able to do things with your files and offer your code to others who would like to do the same or similar thingsFeb 21 02:03
schestowitzCase of point (found in news a minute ago): http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articles/2009/02/...Feb 21 02:03
Balrogor withhold your code if you want. But NOT prevent reversingFeb 21 02:04
Balrogthis < http://farm4.static.flickr.com/303... > is a classic poster hanging in the server room :)Feb 21 02:05
Balrogor a photo of itFeb 21 02:05
Balrogin any case, it wasn't good back then, isn't much better todayFeb 21 02:05
Balrog(isn't any better, really)Feb 21 02:05
Balrogcould say it's worse todayFeb 21 02:06
schestowitzDoes this video work for you? New one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgPeO7IR-UQFeb 21 02:06
schestowitzFirefox doesn't load them out for no reason (never happened before)Feb 21 02:06
Balrogworks hereFeb 21 02:06
twitterclive is getting themFeb 21 02:07
twitterhmph, looks like Adobe has some holes in pdf.  I'm more used to flash blowing things up.Feb 21 02:10
twitterhttp://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?s...Feb 21 02:10
BalrogI heard. Adobe can't even write code that works with a case sensitive FS D:Feb 21 02:10
Balrogwell I'm out.Feb 21 02:10
*Balrog has quit ()Feb 21 02:10
twitterIck, why did you want to watch that Novell advertisement on YouTube.  The main dude was a Windows user, or his computer looked an awful lot like like W2K or XP with "classic" GUI.Feb 21 02:15
twitterNice buildings, beautiful people, butt ugly GUI.  One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does not belong.  Can you guess ....Feb 21 02:16
twitterhmmm, Saab is bankrupt.  http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b6e794...Feb 21 02:22
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Feb 21 02:26:52 2009
*Now talking on #boycottnovellFeb 21 02:26
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: "Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications" [publicly logged]Feb 21 02:26
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Sun Oct 5 19:20:28 2008Feb 21 02:26
-ChanServ-You are not authorized to perform this operation.Feb 21 02:26
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channelFeb 21 02:26
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzFeb 21 02:27
schestowitzAhhhh,.... I see...Feb 21 02:30
schestowitzAs I suspected, Google breaks YouTube for use with certain pluginsFeb 21 02:30
schestowitzThe last time they did this, it took me like 2 hours (!!) to spot the source of the issueFeb 21 02:31
schestowitzThis time it was fasterFeb 21 02:31
schestowitzIt worked on Konqueror, so I knew it was a pluginFeb 21 02:31
schestowitzDisabling FLashblock did the trickFeb 21 02:31
schestowitzAnd earlier today I did read about YouTube making some changes, I just couldn't recall what they involved.Feb 21 02:31
schestowitzSaab goes sub... (sub-crime?) GM must be dependent on you taxpayers now... looted by so-called "stimulus" (Orwellian term)Feb 21 02:34
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schestowitz Yahoo buys something < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquir... >  "SEARCH engine Yahoo which has been in the doldrums for a year after failing to take Microsoft's offer of a buy out, has bought Softbank's IDC outfit."Feb 21 02:38
schestowitzWhy the USA Economy is failing…  http://webhostedservices.com/blog/?p=51   ("Something called GREED.")Feb 21 02:47
schestowitzOuch! http://www.aforgenet.com/ "AForge.NET is a C# framework designed for developers and researchers in the fields of Computer Vision and Artificial Intelligence - image processing, neural networks, genetic algorithms, machine learning, robotics, etc."Feb 21 02:50
schestowitzWhy was this in FP of FSD?Feb 21 02:50
schestowitzhttp://www.lessig.org/blog/2009/02/from_...Feb 21 03:03
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