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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 12th, 2009 - Part 3


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oiaohmThis is where Bayesin and clamav (it has plushing detection kick in)Apr 12 12:47
_Hicham_but clamav is an antivirus scan engineApr 12 12:48
oiaohmIt also includes signatures to detect plushing.Apr 12 12:48
oiaohmclamav is a virus scanner with signatures particular for scanning of email.Apr 12 12:49
_Hicham_clamav can then be used in thunderbird to detect spam?Apr 12 12:50
oiaohm 12 12:51
oiaohmAnd others provide plushing signatures for clamav.Apr 12 12:51
oiaohmI wish thunderbird had clamav intergrationApr 12 12:51
oiaohm  You can really see tht clamav is kinda used a lot in email scanning.Apr 12 12:56
DaemonFCI've heard that ClamAV/ClamWin don't detect a lot of particularly nasty virusesApr 12 13:06
oiaohmNo anti-virus detects the all.Apr 12 13:10
oiaohmClamav engine is highly effective.Apr 12 13:11
oiaohmBesides getting around clamav engine will only get harder once it adds decomplier with code processing.Apr 12 13:16
oiaohm  Clamav is a mixture of signatures and hard algarothems.Apr 12 13:18
oiaohmSo its not weak DaemonFCApr 12 13:19
oiaohmProblem is no anti-virus is perfect.  Due to the design of windows anti-viruses you cannot run multiable to increase your detection rate.Apr 12 13:19
DaemonFCClamWin can't use real time scanningApr 12 13:20
DaemonFCso it should be fine to use along with another antivirus appApr 12 13:21
oiaohmIt isApr 12 13:22
oiaohmclamwin I do recommend for people to use in combination with other scanners for the stuff that will from time to time slip past there default.Apr 12 13:23
oiaohmWindows design real-time scanning really cripples people when we have these complex threats appear.Apr 12 13:25
oiaohmSometimes you will have 2 commerical antiviruses only detecting half a virus.Apr 12 13:29
oiaohmScanning machines then get nice and tricky.Apr 12 13:29
oiaohmProblem we have here is all anti-viruses are losing the war against viruses.Apr 12 13:35
oiaohmSimple fact there is a limit on how big of a signature and algo database you can have to detect viruses.Apr 12 13:35
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schestowitzMicrosoft cronies still push against odf : 12 14:34
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zer0c00lhiiApr 12 14:56
zer0c00lhey schestowitzApr 12 14:56
zer0c00lhappy easter :)Apr 12 14:56
MinceRhow do you keep firefox from moving to the current desktop and stealing focus if a new url is opened via the command-line ("firefox -new-tab ...")?Apr 12 14:58
MinceRkde3 window-specific settings can't keep it from doing thatApr 12 14:58
schestowitzzer0c00l: thanks!Apr 12 14:58
schestowitzMinceR: KDE?Apr 12 14:59
schestowitzApps focus stolen?Apr 12 14:59
schestowitzLike switching desktop too?Apr 12 14:59
MinceRi've configured kde to use firefox as the default web browserApr 12 14:59
schestowitzIt sometimes happens to me with Compiz+KDE3Apr 12 15:00
schestowitzFrom ThunderbirdApr 12 15:00
MinceRfirefox is one console, kmail is on anotherApr 12 15:00
schestowitzIf a part of Firefox intrudes another virtual desktopApr 12 15:00
MinceRclicking a link in kmail brings firefox to that desktop and gives it focusApr 12 15:00
MinceReven though i've changed the window-specific setting for firefox that ships with kde or kubuntu so that focus stealing prevention is Extreme on firefox windowsApr 12 15:00
MinceRand that it's forced to the original desktop i've put it onApr 12 15:01
schestowitzI think in Thunderbird you can change the command for the browserApr 12 15:01
schestowitzLike firefox &Apr 12 15:01
MinceRi've seen other browsers using Gecko doing this tooApr 12 15:01
schestowitzOr in KDE Control Centre[sic] -->Associations/File TypesApr 12 15:01
MinceRi thought it went away already yet now here i am, grappling with itApr 12 15:01
schestowitzIt's very annoying if you open many linksApr 12 15:01
MinceRhm, maybe the window class is set wrong in the window-specific setting and it doesn't matchApr 12 15:02
MinceRi think i've solved it :)Apr 12 15:04
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schestowitzIs Microsoft attacking daemonFC? 12 15:13
schestowitzMinceR: I don't think KDE4 has win/app-specific rulesApr 12 15:13
schestowitzIn fact, with Cmpiz enabled these options are disabled tooApr 12 15:14
MinceRi'll see, i guessApr 12 15:14
MinceRif all else fails, there's devilspieApr 12 15:14
MinceRthough that might not be able to keep constant watch on things like thisApr 12 15:14
schestowitzMinceR: they'll reimplment itApr 12 15:14
schestowitzThey restructure the thingApr 12 15:14
schestowitzThey can grated the old code back inApr 12 15:14
schestowitz*graftApr 12 15:14
oiaohm  Interesting that the source is comcastApr 12 15:31
schestowitz 12 15:35
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, I know they sold itApr 12 15:36
oiaohmTo who.Apr 12 15:36
oiaohmThat is the interesting question.Apr 12 15:37
oiaohmAlso comcast and microsoft has had many deals over the years.Apr 12 15:37
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trmancoGag to Internet: Digital rights and Internet rules & Co A real defense of the user, without putting the gag on the free flow of information: 12 15:59
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schestowitzMicrosoft shills on the tail of Vista7 critics: 12 18:27
trmanco...Apr 12 18:30
schestowitzIt's like a nice patternApr 12 18:30
schestowitzMicrosoft is super paranoid about Vista7 criticsApr 12 18:31
schestowitzGoogle Randall Kennedy for details.Apr 12 18:31
schestowitzCriticism is infectious. Remember the fable about the naked emperor (Denmark)Apr 12 18:31
trmancothey are desperateApr 12 18:34
schestowitzHmmmmmmmmm... hehe, funny name. "DarkBaboon (darkbaboon) is now listening to your notices on"Apr 12 18:38
schestowitzSounds self insultingApr 12 18:39
trmancoReport: Conficker worm bites University of Utah: 12 18:39
trmancoit isApr 12 18:39
schestowitztrmanco: they go down like fliesApr 12 18:39
schestowitzAt least it's not yet another British hospital (which is force shutdown). 3 that I know of so far due to Conficker. They try to hide it.Apr 12 18:39
schestowitz*forcedApr 12 18:40
trmancothat's badApr 12 18:42
schestowitzDNS was down yesterdayApr 12 18:43
schestowitzAnd this morning I lost the connection momentarily. This NEVER happensApr 12 18:44
trmancothat is bad tooApr 12 18:44
trmancobut everything is smooth hereApr 12 18:44
trmancoat least for nowApr 12 18:44
schestowitzSmooth like banana in a blender.Apr 12 19:04
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schestowitzI have some rotten plugin in Firefox. Any debugging tool for that?Apr 12 19:41
schestowitzEaster eggs in OOo. Yummy and seasonly :-)  http://uxopenofficeorg.blogspot...Apr 12 19:51
schestowitzThink about the ritual of eating eggs for a second. It's the eating of young , unborn, innocent animals... Don't get me going about turkeys... :-)Apr 12 19:53
schestowitzCool. PJ uses the alexbrown twits I send her to challenge him to admit the mistake.Apr 12 20:04
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schestowitzIs Steve Jobs really in charge? - < > No word from him..Apr 12 20:17
schestowitzPolice apologise for obstructing photographers at G20 protest < > RMS: "The apology is worthless unless it is accompanied by something to protect photographers from a repetition of the same abuse."Apr 12 20:20
schestowitzAlso from RMS: "Obama says that the Bush forces will leave Iraq by 2011, but generals are saying they will stay for 20 years. "Apr 12 20:20
schestowitzEDF Goes Nuclear on Greenpeace < >. The authurities try to crack their way into Greepeace's computers. They hopefully use Fedora or something.Apr 12 20:22
schestowitzG20 death: Police officer suspended < >. Not charged? The man whom he attacked died. I guess they can't take him to the police if you know what I mean.Apr 12 20:34
schestowitzHealth risks of shipping pollution have been 'underestimated' < >. Some restaurants in the UK are flying FOOD in.... in airplanes!Apr 12 20:36
schestowitzIan Tomlinson was attacked TWICE by the police: 12 20:37
schestowitz"Officers are alleged to have attacked Tomlinson twice; both times from behind and as he was walking away. Eight witnesses produced photographic evidence, time- and date-stamped, that corroborates their version of events. Three said they saw Tomlinson being assaulted by riot police. Here are their accounts."Apr 12 20:38
schestowitzPhoenix police raid home of blogger whose writing is highly critical of them < >Apr 12 20:40
schestowitzSocialism has failed. Now capitalism is bankrupt. So what comes next? < >Apr 12 20:41
schestowitzThe $1000000 question: 12 20:42
schestowitzVote distribution on BN articles: 61% of the time it's a 10 and I can't ever voteApr 12 20:48
schestowitzHmm.. is the "CJ" in Mr Collier?Apr 12 20:54
schestowitz "Intel show the dragon coming fast and spitting fire time ago and that's why they are hurrying up with Moblin. It's not that Intel suddendly loves Linux, it's that they are scared of ARM and asian 5$-MIPS CPUs."Apr 12 21:00
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schestowitzConficker worm hits University of Utah computers < >Apr 12 21:08
schestowitzWhats New in Fedora 11 < >Apr 12 21:09
trmanco<schestowitz> I have some rotten plugin in Firefox. Any debugging tool for that? -> disable all, enable one by one to see which on is the problematic pluginApr 12 21:10
trmancoone*Apr 12 21:10
schestowitzit's not a suddenly-arising issue. It's just that sometimes it needs restarting to free up memory. It used to work fine.Apr 12 21:13
trmancoI only use 1Apr 12 21:13
schestowitzIf only there was a way to display memory usage 'per' extension/processApr 12 21:13
trmanco 12 21:15
schestowitzI use man of theseApr 12 21:17
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schestowitzByfield claims to have evangelised FOSS, but I'm not sure he did. "Stepping away from evangelism" < >Apr 12 21:24
schestowitz 12 21:27
DaemonFCschestowitz: 12 21:28
zer0c00lgnApr 12 21:32
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schestowitzThe Exchange server at my work collapsed. *LOL*Apr 12 21:33
schestowitzThey insisted on this garbage and now they eat Easter downtimeApr 12 21:34
schestowitzI'll never forgot how this expensive rubbish caught a viruses and how much the admin spend maintaining the darn thing.Apr 12 21:34
schestowitz 12 21:42
schestowitz "My question for Dell is this: if you're going to sell a top-end machine with Linux pre-installed, don't you think it makes sense to ensure that every single component of the system works properly before it ships?"Apr 12 21:52
schestowitzOpera 10 Beta ‘Turbo’ - Does It Still Have What It Takes? < > Would it gladly be used and recommended had it gone Free (GPL)?Apr 12 21:57
schestowitzUbuntu Needs To Monitor Consistancy - Not Appearance < > Fair point made, but it's already consistent. Compare this to Windows which comes with almost nothing  and each third-party application behaves differently and uses different libs.Apr 12 22:01
schestowitz "Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols has been writing about technology and the business of technology since CP/M-80 was the cutting edge, PC operating system; 300bps was a fast Internet connection; WordStar was the state of the art word processor; and we liked it! " :-)Apr 12 22:02
schestowitz"According to a former engineer at Area 51, the top-secret U.S. military facility in Nevada, the reported sightings of UFOs in the 1960s were really light flashes from extremely high-speed experimental jets and that aliens are not stored at the super-secret facility." 12 22:10
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schestowitzThe secret to having things work sometimes is avoiding Linux-hostile hardware...Apr 12 22:22
trmancotrueApr 12 22:27
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schestowitztrmanco: in the UK we have this shop called Novatech. Everything I throw on their PCs works. No Windows tax, either (deducted visibly)Apr 12 22:30
trmanco:)Apr 12 22:30
schestowitzI might use Fedora next. PCLOS looks temping too. Both are good with hardware, esp. the latter.Apr 12 22:31
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DavidGerardgood evening allApr 12 22:35
DavidGerardHOW DO I SHOT WIFIApr 12 22:35
schestowitzHowdyApr 12 22:35
DavidGerardor rather how do i shot ubuntu jauntyApr 12 22:35
DavidGerardpreferably through the headApr 12 22:35
schestowitzHow goes it?Apr 12 22:35
DavidGerardARGHApr 12 22:35
DavidGerardBETA HELLApr 12 22:36
schestowitzWhy beta?Apr 12 22:36
schestowitzDebian stableApr 12 22:36
schestowitzOr CentOSApr 12 22:36
DavidGerardI used to install the ubuntu next version a few months ahead, because interface bugs have 100% more chance of being fixed before releaseApr 12 22:36
schestowitzThe polish... cream of the crop. Possibly cleaner than XP and OS XApr 12 22:36
DavidGerardand i'd expect basic functionality to y'know being there since debian unstable does in fact pretty much workApr 12 22:36
schestowitzWhy upgrade?Apr 12 22:37
schestowitzI still use Mandriva current-1Apr 12 22:37
DavidGerardthis has not been true the last several versionsApr 12 22:37
DavidGerardbecause i like the latest app candyApr 12 22:37
schestowitzNaaa..Apr 12 22:37
schestowitzStable is sometimes goodApr 12 22:37
DavidGerardyeah, on serversApr 12 22:37
schestowitzBN ran on WordPress 2.0.11 until last monthApr 12 22:37
DavidGerardon my laptop i want CANDYApr 12 22:37
schestowitzThe upgrade was needed though, esp. for cachingApr 12 22:37
DavidGerardo_0 that's a good way to get 0wn3dApr 12 22:37
schestowitzI take the candy for granted nowApr 12 22:38
schestowitzThe other day I saw an XP desktopApr 12 22:38
schestowitzMy boss...Apr 12 22:38
schestowitzIt's so nastyApr 12 22:38
DavidGerardi am tempted by debian sid as i know how to unfuck an apt-based distro courtesy running ubuntu betas :-DApr 12 22:38
schestowitzThe windows stay all straight when they move.Apr 12 22:38
schestowitzWeird...Apr 12 22:38
DavidGerardman, ubuntu betas are an instant course in debian administrationApr 12 22:38
DavidGerardyeah.Apr 12 22:38
DavidGerardunix pwns xp for interfaceApr 12 22:39
schestowitzOpening PDF has this lag tooApr 12 22:39
DavidGerardubuntu has regarded mac as the target for many yearsApr 12 22:39
DavidGerardquite rightlyApr 12 22:39
schestowitzLike... you have some silly splash screen ans stuff.Apr 12 22:39
DavidGerardos x really is just that much better in every wayApr 12 22:39
schestowitzAnd there's one desktop for all the stuffApr 12 22:39
schestowitzOne monitor tooApr 12 22:39
DavidGerardin interfaceApr 12 22:39
schestowitz(he has an overhead projector)Apr 12 22:39
DavidGerardno, xp does multiple monitors quite smoothlyApr 12 22:39
schestowitzI knowApr 12 22:39
DavidGerardit's actualy pretty good at thatApr 12 22:40
schestowitzMany people don't use the functionalityApr 12 22:40
DavidGerardthe nvidia drivers - you know how crappy they are on linux?Apr 12 22:40
schestowitzIt's like people who insists that reading on paper is betterApr 12 22:40
DavidGerardthey're just as crappy on windersApr 12 22:40
schestowitzWishful thinkingApr 12 22:40
schestowitzSelf justifications are infiniteApr 12 22:40
DavidGerardat work we have xp with dual screen and nvidia cardsApr 12 22:40
DavidGerardnvidia blue screens are de rigeurApr 12 22:40
schestowitzMy parents stopped getting the paperApr 12 22:40
DavidGerardi have my monitors set up portraitApr 12 22:40
DavidGerardthat *is* niceApr 12 22:41
DavidGerardportrait >>> landscape for desktopsApr 12 22:41
schestowitzYes, but...Apr 12 22:41
DavidGerardweb browsing, email, you name itApr 12 22:41
schestowitzHow about a 8-side cube surrounding you?Apr 12 22:41
schestowitzWith widescreen-dual? ;-)Apr 12 22:41
DavidGerardit's like the late 80s when i was doing dtp on macsApr 12 22:41
DavidGerardhigh-end macs being 20mhz 68030Apr 12 22:41
DavidGerard1024 by 768 SUPER ULTRA HIGH RESOLUTIONApr 12 22:42
schestowitzWe have another Linux switcher: 12 22:42
schestowitzDavidGerard: not just a matter of pixelsApr 12 22:42
schestowitzDepending on the user's eye sightApr 12 22:42
schestowitzSomething that took me a while to realiseApr 12 22:42
DavidGerardyeah, those were in black and white too ;-)Apr 12 22:42
schestowitzCause I always max up the resApr 12 22:42
DavidGerardand at 72dpi, not 96dpiApr 12 22:42
schestowitzOne of my monitors does over 2000px horizontalApr 12 22:43
DavidGerardmac late '80s. a PIXEL is a POINT, a POINT is a PIXEL!Apr 12 22:43
DavidGerardwe had a sun 21" until v recentlyApr 12 22:43
DavidGerardwe freecycled itApr 12 22:43
schestowitzSun was greatApr 12 22:43
DavidGerardor rather, chavcycled itApr 12 22:43
schestowitzThe workstationApr 12 22:43
DavidGerard(left it out the front until someone took it)Apr 12 22:43
schestowitzBut pricey and facing an aggressor.Apr 12 22:43
DavidGerardit was lovelyApr 12 22:43
DavidGerarddid up to 1600x1200 wellApr 12 22:43
schestowitzLooking Glass seems deadApr 12 22:43
DavidGerardbut took 300W power and WAY too much spaceApr 12 22:43
schestowitzMust suck to be a dev of itApr 12 22:43
schestowitzSo nice, so much work, so /dev/null worthy at the endApr 12 22:44
DavidGerarda 21" lcd is worth it purely in electricityApr 12 22:44
DavidGerardi use kde4Apr 12 22:44
DavidGerardkde4 is schweetApr 12 22:44
DavidGerardunfortunately, it's all but incomprehensible to xp converts in my experienceApr 12 22:44
schestowitzI might put 2009.1 (sure, Mandriva!) when it's outApr 12 22:44
DavidGerardthey cope very well with kde3 though, because it looks jsut like xp/2000 but worksApr 12 22:44
schestowitzI'll want to buy it... I hope Mandriva stays strong until MSFT goes under, not literallyApr 12 22:45
DavidGerardneed something, a theme package or whatever, to make kde4 work just like kde3 and they can unlock features as they are inspired to exploreApr 12 22:45
silentivmagreed, DavidGerardApr 12 22:45
schestowitzThe French police is among those in France that set the trend nowApr 12 22:45
silentivmlast time I tried KDE4, I didn't enjoy it at allApr 12 22:45
silentivmtoo fancy for meApr 12 22:45
DavidGerardi love itApr 12 22:45
silentivmI'd need a KDE3-like modeApr 12 22:45
schestowitzMandriva needs to pressure on them to buy Mandriva, not get free UbuntuApr 12 22:45
DavidGerardi can't stand kde3 any moreApr 12 22:45
DavidGerardbut i've been converting my gf's teenage daughters to ubuntuApr 12 22:46
DavidGerardone of them got a virus via msn the other week.Apr 12 22:46
schestowitzThemes..?Apr 12 22:46
DavidGerardwe burnt the machine to the ground and rebuiltApr 12 22:46
schestowitzToday: 12 22:46
schestowitzNice...Apr 12 22:46
silentivmbut for the time being, I'm happy with my Openbox setupApr 12 22:46
DavidGerardshe demands real msn, hates pidgin and trillianApr 12 22:46
silentivmso I'll stick to it until I feel like trying KDE4 againApr 12 22:46
schestowitzGive Ubuntu Jaunty An Apple Flavour < > But I thought "only Mac were pretty"...Apr 12 22:47
DavidGerardbut if she gets another virus she gets ubuntu and aMSN like it or notApr 12 22:47
DavidGerardkde 4 is really really gorgeousApr 12 22:47
DavidGerard4.2 is fit for humansApr 12 22:47
DavidGerard4.3 may be fit for n00bs or xp refugeesApr 12 22:47
schestowitzDavidGerard: heard os Utah?Apr 12 22:47
schestowitz*ofApr 12 22:47
DavidGerardwindows 7's interface is actaully very nice. like kde4 only not as extreme.Apr 12 22:47
DavidGerardnoApr 12 22:47
schestowitz 12 22:47
silentivmI didn't try Win7Apr 12 22:48
silentivmand it's likely I never willApr 12 22:48
DavidGerardi tried the beta in a vmApr 12 22:48
DavidGerardmostly to try wine on windows in it %-DApr 12 22:48
DavidGerardwine on interix almost compiles nowApr 12 22:48
DavidGerardit's great funApr 12 22:48
silentivmneatApr 12 22:48
DavidGerardthe public excuse is to run old apps on new windowsApr 12 22:49
DavidGerardthe real reason is to make wine more cross-platformApr 12 22:49
DavidGerardat present it works on linux, linux and maybe linuxApr 12 22:49
DavidGerardmac os is supported by codeweaversApr 12 22:49
silentivmWine runs on *BSD, doesn't it?Apr 12 22:49
DavidGerardfreebsd is clinging on by a patchsetApr 12 22:49
DavidGerardsolaris works when someone can be botheredApr 12 22:49
DavidGerardand those are the *officially supported* platformsApr 12 22:49
DavidGerardopenbsd compiles and nothing at all works, not even --versionApr 12 22:50
silentivm:(Apr 12 22:50
DavidGerardnetbsd probably compilesApr 12 22:50
DavidGerardreally, its crossplatform is presently dismalApr 12 22:50
DavidGerardnow, cygwin. that makes linux look like a normal unix.Apr 12 22:50
DavidGerardit's GNU software with a bit of linux /proc emulation and random crap copied form various BSDs as the whim takes them.Apr 12 22:50
DavidGerardliterally.Apr 12 22:50
DavidGerardit's not quite the mythical Weirdix but close.Apr 12 22:51
DavidGerardinterix is like unix in the 1990s, i.e. all the little annoyances that make GNU software such a relief of painApr 12 22:51
DavidGerardif microsoft saw money in getting a unix cert for windows, interix would need v little work to pass certApr 12 22:52
schestowitzDavidGerard: I've never used Wine for practical purposesApr 12 22:52
silentivmI use Wine to run a few apps I needApr 12 22:52
schestowitzMostly experimenting to see/validate some very old apps workApr 12 22:52
DavidGerardi use it mostly for my favourite sudoku game :-DApr 12 22:52
schestowitzI still have things like ARJ.EXE on my HDDApr 12 22:52
DavidGerardalso for exactaudiocopyApr 12 22:52
silentivmI use it to run a few electronics appsApr 12 22:53
DavidGerard(really bad disks will tend to work in either EAC or cdparanoia)Apr 12 22:53
schestowitzI have Warcraft 1 and 2 as well.Apr 12 22:53
silentivmfor DOS games I use DOSBoxApr 12 22:53
DavidGerardit was also interesting trying windows firefox in it. it really does run that much faster under wine than native. same version.Apr 12 22:53
schestowitzSo.. does linux have Line?Apr 12 22:53
schestowitzLinux is Not an Emulator?Apr 12 22:53
schestowitzLike... can I run KNode in Windows?Apr 12 22:53
schestowitzIn a stable fashion?Apr 12 22:54
DavidGerardkde4 ahs been ported to windowsApr 12 22:54
DavidGerardcurrently "interesting alpha"Apr 12 22:54
schestowitzKDE4 is still experimental for Windows I suppose.Apr 12 22:54
DavidGerardi can't get ANYTHING to work in xpApr 12 22:54
DavidGerardi wanted amarok, doesn't workApr 12 22:54
schestowitzthat's OKApr 12 22:54
silentivmI have XP on my desktop, but it rarely sees any useApr 12 22:54
DavidGerardand all the symlinks in the start menu are wrokgApr 12 22:54
schestowitzIt means all is rightApr 12 22:54
DavidGerardwrongApr 12 22:54
schestowitzKDE devs don't waste their time on WindowsApr 12 22:54
schestowitzThey can fix bugs for apps on platforms that workApr 12 22:55
schestowitzXP is a mareApr 12 22:55
DavidGerardyeah. the point of kde on windows is that cross-platform means your app is more robustApr 12 22:55
schestowitzVista7 is a Vista to be... another PR fight for MicrosoftApr 12 22:55
DavidGerardit's for the app's benefit, not windows' benefitApr 12 22:55
DavidGerardwindows 7 feels nicer than vistaApr 12 22:55
schestowitzI'm not sure.Apr 12 22:55
DavidGerardit's fat but responsiveApr 12 22:55
schestowitz[About the port]Apr 12 22:55
schestowitzDavidGerard: it's nto finalApr 12 22:55
DavidGerardi knowApr 12 22:55
schestowitzWait until they change paramsApr 12 22:55
schestowitzLike the fileystsem letencyApr 12 22:55
schestowitzIt borks it easilyApr 12 22:56
DavidGerardvista betas were reportedly more responsive than finalApr 12 22:56
schestowitzMS wanted to show fast bootingApr 12 22:56
schestowitzAt /what expense/?Apr 12 22:56
DavidGerardthis is their last chanceApr 12 22:56
schestowitzNo DRM enabled? Overclocking in the coding sense?Apr 12 22:56
schestowitzDavidGerard: Vista wasApr 12 22:56
schestowitzNov2006 (RTM) Microsoft was low on fundsApr 12 22:56
DavidGerardi suspect even windows 7 is too late. it can't be as fast as xp, let alone faster.Apr 12 22:56
schestowitzAfter heavy buybacks alreadyApr 12 22:56
schestowitzVista 7=maybe 2010Apr 12 22:57
DavidGerardit'll suck less than vista, but that's a sad goalApr 12 22:57
schestowitzStill no SPApr 12 22:57
schestowitzAnd Microsoft uses its shill alreadyApr 12 22:57
DavidGerardotoh, i've been seeing well-backed-up predictions of ms's demise for many yearsApr 12 22:57
schestowitzTo say "don't wait for SP"Apr 12 22:57
schestowitzThey use Michel SilverApr 12 22:57
DavidGerardi'll believe it when it happensApr 12 22:57
schestowitzOne of the cheekiest nastiest shill they haveApr 12 22:57
schestowitzhe shills with a Gartner hatApr 12 22:57
schestowitzHas lunch with MSApr 12 22:57
schestowitzAnd attacks ODFApr 12 22:57
schestowitz*Michael Silver, not Michel (typo)Apr 12 22:58
DavidGerardwindows 7 will come out. it'll be less sucky than vista.Apr 12 22:58
DavidGerardit will be on machines by default. the interface won't be very horrible and will be reasonably responsive.Apr 12 22:58
DavidGerardconsumers will probably be reasonably pleased with it.Apr 12 22:58
DavidGerardbusinesses? who knows.Apr 12 22:58
DavidGerardat work we've been coming up with ways to stay off vistaApr 12 22:59
DavidGerardmake sure internal apps work on xp but are broken on vistaApr 12 22:59
DavidGerardroadblocks for being force-upgradedApr 12 22:59
DavidGerardothers in other companies have independently  been doing the same thingApr 12 22:59
DavidGerardhaven't tried them in wine ;-DApr 12 22:59
DavidGerardwe did the same trick with firefox, got it into the new standard desktop buildApr 12 23:00
DavidGerardone internal app 20 people use every day was broken in IE for 6 months with no-one noticingApr 12 23:00
DavidGerard"we need firefox for x x x app"Apr 12 23:00
DavidGerardwill become "we need xp for x x x app"Apr 12 23:00
DavidGerard"or wine on linux will do, but vista is broken. so sorry."Apr 12 23:01
silentivmyepApr 12 23:01
silentivmgood ideaApr 12 23:01
DavidGerardworked for usApr 12 23:01
DavidGerardi'm sure microsoft is keenly aware that the office drones are *actively* fighting vista to this extentApr 12 23:01
*DavidGerard makes mental note to see if said internal apps do work in wineApr 12 23:02
schestowitzHow about [O]ffice drones?Apr 12 23:02
schestowitzMSO07 is bad UIApr 12 23:02
DavidGerardwell, speaking as an Office droneApr 12 23:02
DavidGerard2003Apr 12 23:02
schestowitzFor the illusion of added value/changeApr 12 23:02
DavidGerardoutlook is irreplaceable.Apr 12 23:02
schestowitz"Buy the new version, it's........err.... deiffernet"Apr 12 23:02
DavidGerardnot as an email client, but as a meeting client.Apr 12 23:02
DavidGerardmanagement will not tolerate anything less.Apr 12 23:03
schestowitzSome people use GoogleApr 12 23:03
DavidGerardit really isn't comparable.Apr 12 23:03
schestowitzMicrosoft doesn't want to mention the G word in this contextApr 12 23:03
schestowitzGives people 'dirty' ideasApr 12 23:03
schestowitzMobility tooApr 12 23:03
DavidGerardoutlook is really not too bad as a meeting arrangerApr 12 23:03
DavidGerardit's just a shitty email clientApr 12 23:03
DavidGerardand ms office 97->2003 is much nicer to use than openofficeApr 12 23:03
DavidGerardi hate using OOoApr 12 23:04
DavidGerardit feels like eating a bowl of sawdust with milk for breakfast every morningApr 12 23:04
DavidGerardmso is way smoother and mroe usableApr 12 23:04
DavidGerardof course, it's also way unstable and chokes ion bad documents and has completely unpredictable behavioor on large docs and all thatApr 12 23:04
DavidGerardbut it hurts less *at first*.Apr 12 23:05
DavidGerard(i feel it's very important to be clear on one's opponent's strengths. i am no fan of microsoft's odious behaviour, but their software has strengths that must be acknowledged to beat them.)Apr 12 23:06
DavidGerardmac office 2004 is sweet. it's ridiculously usable.Apr 12 23:06
DavidGerardand way more stable than the windows version.Apr 12 23:06
schestowitzWhat do you need it for?Apr 12 23:07
schestowitzFeature-wise?Apr 12 23:07
DavidGerardopenoffice core devs need macs with mac office 2004 to use.Apr 12 23:07
schestowitzCompatibility?Apr 12 23:07
DavidGerardit's not features.Apr 12 23:07
DavidGerardi use mso at work because it's what we're given.Apr 12 23:07
schestowitzHeard of LyX?Apr 12 23:07
silentivmI don't like anything Office-related, to sayApr 12 23:07
silentivmI need to learn LaTeX, urgentlyApr 12 23:07
schestowitzDavidGerard: that's no reason.... "what we're given."Apr 12 23:07
DavidGerardi tried installing OOo and it was just ... painful, in small ways.Apr 12 23:07
silentivmI have no problems using OOoApr 12 23:07
DavidGerardit's a subjective feel thing.Apr 12 23:07
schestowitzIt's like saying mushroom soup is great because it's what we're given.Apr 12 23:08
schestowitzIs it required?Apr 12 23:08
schestowitzMaybe it isApr 12 23:08
DavidGerardfor work? yesApr 12 23:08
schestowitzSome people need macros of MSOApr 12 23:08
DavidGerardas i said, i'd use OOo but it's not as nice to use at allApr 12 23:08
schestowitzDefine nice to useApr 12 23:08
schestowitzDoes it not make coffeeApr 12 23:08
schestowitzNo smiling Clippy?Apr 12 23:08
schestowitzSure, Clippy may look niceApr 12 23:08
DavidGerarduh, you're trying to define the problem away. that doesn't make it go away.Apr 12 23:08
schestowitzBut it's irrittating peopleApr 12 23:09
DavidGerardthat's a form of denial.Apr 12 23:09
DavidGerarddenial doesn't make the free world's stuff better.Apr 12 23:09
schestowitzI like OOoApr 12 23:09
schestowitzGets my themes :-)Apr 12 23:09
schestowitzDark shadesApr 12 23:09
DavidGerardi like it for its functionality, robustness and predictability.Apr 12 23:09
schestowitzInherits the 3d effects tooApr 12 23:09
DavidGerardit's also stuppidly fat and slow.Apr 12 23:09
schestowitzNo ODFApr 12 23:10
DavidGerardif i'm dashing off a document i'll tend to go to google docs.Apr 12 23:10
DavidGerardi'd actually rather that at work but we have the big enterprise licence etcApr 12 23:10
DavidGerardand stupid bluecoat filtering proxies that break googleApr 12 23:10
DavidGerardi bet ms is pleased with thoseApr 12 23:10
DavidGerardnot websearching, but login for gmail or docsApr 12 23:11
schestowitzI know how many people use their PCsApr 12 23:12
schestowitzLike familyApr 12 23:12
schestowitzThey don't use it for office purposesApr 12 23:12
schestowitzThey dash off as you sayApr 12 23:12
schestowitzQuick letter or opening some presentationApr 12 23:12
schestowitzI fail to see how the cost of $500 can be judtified for thisApr 12 23:12
schestowitzMicrosoft NEVER mentions OOoApr 12 23:12
schestowitzIts purpose if for people to go like, "what?? I could open all those thingie I get by E-mail for FREE??"Apr 12 23:13
schestowitzIt's the stage where, like Apple, the competition must not be mentionedApr 12 23:13
schestowitzSame with Java BTW... Novell knows...Apr 12 23:13
schestowitzYou will never find Microsoft employees like Miguel de Icaza mentioning JavaApr 12 23:14
DavidGerardoh absolutelyApr 12 23:16
DavidGerardi've seen openoffice on sale in the local poundshopApr 12 23:16
DavidGerard"PerfectOffice" in a big presentation boxApr 12 23:16
DavidGerardit was basically ooo 2 in a boxApr 12 23:17
DavidGerardincluded sources on the cd!Apr 12 23:17
DavidGerardcompletely licence compliantApr 12 23:17
DavidGerardand presumably everyone involved was ACTUALLY MAKING A PROFIT selling the final product at €£1Apr 12 23:17
DavidGerardgoogle docs is all the word processor almost anyone needsApr 12 23:18
DavidGerardif you use gmail it already offers to open .doc files in google docsApr 12 23:18
DavidGerardgmail is the best email client i've ever usedApr 12 23:18
DavidGerardi want thunderbird with (1) conversation threading (2) three-state (read/unread/archived) emailApr 12 23:19
DavidGerardthen i'd go back to itApr 12 23:19
DavidGerardi'm wondering how much of my work stuff would be suitable for google docsApr 12 23:19
DavidGerardmost of itApr 12 23:19
DavidGerardit's excel spreadsheets being used for data, not calculationApr 12 23:20
DavidGerarddoc files attached to emailsApr 12 23:20
DavidGerardthe irreplaceable element at present is outlook/exchangeApr 12 23:20
DavidGerardthat's the heart of the monopolyApr 12 23:20
DavidGerardnearly good enough is not good enoughApr 12 23:20
DavidGerarda replacement for one or both has to be Perfect.Apr 12 23:21
DavidGerardand more than that - Better.Apr 12 23:21
schestowitzDavidGerard: thunderbird has thatApr 12 23:21
schestowitzBuilt in evenApr 12 23:21
DavidGerardwhat, 3-state and conversation threading?Apr 12 23:21
DavidGerardi moved from thunderbird 1.x to gmailApr 12 23:21
schestowitzIt does a lot more, even without extensions. When did you last try it?Apr 12 23:21
DavidGerard1.x daysApr 12 23:21
schestowitzTry 2.0Apr 12 23:21
schestowitzOr wait for 3.0Apr 12 23:22
schestowitzComing soon.Apr 12 23:22
DavidGerardhrmmmmmApr 12 23:22
schestowitzI think I use Thunderbird more than I use my Web browserApr 12 23:22
DavidGerardspeaking of replacing exchangeApr 12 23:22
schestowitzI probably use Thunderbird like 40% of my timeApr 12 23:22
DavidGerardthere are things an o/s replacement could do that *would* be better than exchangeApr 12 23:22
schestowitzRecently I've used xchat a lot too, but there you goApr 12 23:22
DavidGerarde.g. not crapping itself on huge mailboxesApr 12 23:22
DavidGerardyeah, xchat is the best irc client i've ever usedApr 12 23:23
DavidGerardon mac and windows too!Apr 12 23:23
schestowitzCool.Apr 12 23:23
DavidGerardnot hanging the client whenever it's thinkingApr 12 23:23
schestowitzMy basis for comparison is mereApr 12 23:23
schestowitzI used mirc when I was 14 or youngerApr 12 23:23
DavidGerardexchange is very bad at ahh actually managing dataApr 12 23:23
DavidGerardmirc is horrible.Apr 12 23:23
schestowitzI used xchat briefly in 2005Apr 12 23:23
DavidGerardi went back to bitchx at the command line.Apr 12 23:23
silentivmI used mIRC for quite a whileApr 12 23:23
DavidGerardi'm using xchat now.Apr 12 23:23
silentivmused to script for it, evenApr 12 23:24
DavidGerard3.8.6.Apr 12 23:24
silentivmmoved to XChat as soon as I moved to LinuxApr 12 23:24
DavidGerard2.8.6 i meanApr 12 23:24
schestowitzDavidGerard: our Exchange Server crashed todayApr 12 23:24
schestowitzvery typicalApr 12 23:24
schestowitzNever happens to my Linux serverApr 12 23:24
DavidGerardyeah, i just found it in Ubuntu HoaryApr 12 23:24
DavidGerardthe story of me converting to Ubuntu:Apr 12 23:24
DavidGerardwife played frozen bubble at a friend's houseApr 12 23:24
DavidGerardsaid "i want that on my system! can i have ubuntu on my laptop?"Apr 12 23:24
DavidGerardso, frozen bubble got a convertApr 12 23:25
silentivmthe story of me migrating to Linux: someone told me "Linux doesn't crash, is free and is good for programming", I was interested in programming, I requested a free Ubuntu CD as I had dial-up at the time. done, another Linux convertApr 12 23:25
DavidGerardi shifted my own laptop to ubuntu because freebsd 5's laptop hardware support wasn't so goodApr 12 23:25
DavidGerardi far prefer unix administration on bsdApr 12 23:26
DavidGerardbut linux supprots more hardwareApr 12 23:26
silentivmI never used BSD except on virtual machinesApr 12 23:26
DavidGerardand apt-based packaging and repositories ... shits all over the freebsd ports system.Apr 12 23:26
DavidGerardthe bsds are very niceApr 12 23:26
DavidGerardthey are lovely pure unixesApr 12 23:26
DavidGerardlinux is actually ahh useful ;-pApr 12 23:26
DavidGerard(man, bsd fans are gonna lynch me for that)Apr 12 23:27
*DaemonFC ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 12 23:27
DavidGerardi used synaptic in ubuntuApr 12 23:27
DavidGerardafter having way too much pain with freebsd portsApr 12 23:27
DavidGerardand my jaw droppedApr 12 23:27
schestowitzI never used Synaptic I thinkApr 12 23:27
silentivmyepApr 12 23:27
schestowitzOn Ubuntu I use apt-getApr 12 23:28
silentivmI used itApr 12 23:28
DaemonFCit's better than mostApr 12 23:28
DaemonFCit's fastApr 12 23:28
DavidGerardand i emailed freebsd questions with "dudes. go look. try it. this is how it's done."Apr 12 23:28
schestowitzOn all machines of mine that run UbuntuApr 12 23:28
schestowitz3 of them....Apr 12 23:28
DavidGerardi look forward to debian-kfreebsd coming out of experimentalApr 12 23:28
schestowitzBut I use Mandriva mainlyApr 12 23:28
silentivmI use Arch mainlyApr 12 23:28
DavidGerardbecause it really is so much easier to administer at the kernel levelApr 12 23:28
DavidGerardi really, really hate linux sysadmin.Apr 12 23:28
schestowitzDaemonFC: assuming you know package nameApr 12 23:28
silentivmstill, I'd like to see Arch with a BSD kernelApr 12 23:28
DavidGerardi'd rather administer solaris than linux, at the close-to-the-kernel levelApr 12 23:29
DavidGerardi've been a solaris admin for 8 years and i freely admit it's horrible, and it's still less horrible than linuxApr 12 23:29
DavidGerardgnu is great, linux is horribleApr 12 23:29
DavidGerard(all software sucks, all hardware sucks)Apr 12 23:29
DavidGerardkde has adept, which is ... an epic interface failApr 12 23:30
DavidGerardsynaptic is far easier to useApr 12 23:30
DavidGerardthey really shoulda just ported synaptic to QtApr 12 23:30
DavidGerardinstead they reinvented the wheelApr 12 23:30
DavidGerardfoolish humansApr 12 23:30
DavidGerardcomputers are stupid, annoying and don't workApr 12 23:31
schestowitzMicrosoft shills are being exposed badly: 12 23:31
MinceRwell, kde4.2 is disappointing -- i think i'll try switching to compiz.Apr 12 23:31
schestowitzI have no idea who this German poster is, but it's rather evealing.Apr 12 23:32
schestowitzMinceR: did you try it?Apr 12 23:32
MinceRyesApr 12 23:32
schestowitzWhen?Apr 12 23:32
MinceRi'm using it right nowApr 12 23:32
MinceRi've upgraded to intrepid yesterdayApr 12 23:32
schestowitzLess options, eh?Apr 12 23:32
schestowitzThey pulled an Apple on you.Apr 12 23:33
MinceRsort ofApr 12 23:33
MinceRi expected it to present the full feature set of compiz, but it doesn'tApr 12 23:33
DavidGerardintrepid is 4.1 by default, barely usable by humansApr 12 23:33
DavidGerard4.2 for intrepid is only via ppaApr 12 23:33
MinceRi'm pretty sure i have 4.2 :>Apr 12 23:33
DavidGerard4.2 is in jaunty by defaultApr 12 23:34
MinceRkde apps say they're running on 4.2 and i've tried some features that are new in 4.2Apr 12 23:34
DavidGerardhave you got the wallpaper with all the white circles in a pleasing aesthetic design? that's 4.2Apr 12 23:34
DavidGerardthen you ahve 4.2 :-)Apr 12 23:34
MinceRi did get thatApr 12 23:34
DavidGerardwell, matter of tasteApr 12 23:34
DavidGerard4.1 was not ready for humans#Apr 12 23:34
DavidGerard4.2 is close to ready for humansApr 12 23:34
MinceRthe new panel wastes space as if it had the whole screen to it or somethingApr 12 23:34
DavidGerarduh? i tweaked it to stay outa my faceApr 12 23:35
DavidGerardit actually autohides properly in 4.2Apr 12 23:35
MinceRthe task list icons are xbox huegApr 12 23:35
*DavidGerard bounces the panel up and down a bitApr 12 23:35
MinceRthe desktop activity switcher expands incredibly unless i give it its own panelApr 12 23:35
MinceRyes, working autohide is niceApr 12 23:36
DavidGerardi use coverflowApr 12 23:36
DavidGerardbrbApr 12 23:36
MinceRalso, it's crash-happyApr 12 23:37
schestowitzDavidGerard: any lucene mono connection? I just found 12 23:38
MinceRi'm playing around with a second, auto-hiding panel to hold the space-hungry appletsApr 12 23:40
DavidGerardconnection? dunno about connectionApr 12 23:41
DavidGerardas i said, wikimedia used to run a c# lucene when java wasn't realy free at allApr 12 23:41
DavidGerardthey switched back to java when it was free enough and promptly doubled performance!Apr 12 23:42
DavidGerardreally. with an increasingly free java, there is NO REASON for c# or .NET to existApr 12 23:42
MinceR:)Apr 12 23:42
silentivm:)Apr 12 23:42
DavidGerardsomething to compile c# to java bytecode would be all the conversion tool neededApr 12 23:42
DavidGerardcrash-happy?Apr 12 23:45
DavidGerardi haven't had any crashes of kde 4.2 stuff, which surprises meApr 12 23:45
DavidGerardexcept amarok 2 which is terribly unstableApr 12 23:45
DavidGerardi'm actually back to amarok 1.4 just to play my damn musicApr 12 23:45
MinceRi've had a solid freeze alreadyApr 12 23:46
MinceRa couple ctrl+alt+backspaces gave me control over the machineApr 12 23:47
MinceR(obviously i've lost the session)Apr 12 23:47
silentivmnever had KDE4 crash hard hereApr 12 23:47
silentivmjust sometimes stuff like plasma decides to die randomlyApr 12 23:47
silentivmI will wait for KDE 4.3 to see what givesApr 12 23:48
DavidGerardhuhApr 12 23:48
DavidGerardwhat distro?Apr 12 23:48
DavidGerardoh, intrepidApr 12 23:48
DavidGerardweirdApr 12 23:48
*twitter ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 12 23:49
MinceRi'll see of compiz works better for meApr 12 23:50
MinceRs/of/if/Apr 12 23:50
MinceRi'll mostly need good widgets for the widget layer :)Apr 12 23:50
silentivm:)Apr 12 23:50
MinceRthe kde guys kept telling me kde4 will finally handle desktops and workspaces correctly (and separately)Apr 12 23:51
MinceRit doesn'tApr 12 23:51
MinceRit still has desktops only and wants to arrange them into rowsApr 12 23:51
twittercan you fix it?Apr 12 23:51
DavidGerardhmApr 12 23:52
MinceRi can'tApr 12 23:52
MinceRi know very little about window management programmingApr 12 23:52
twitterbummerApr 12 23:53
DaemonFCschestowitz: That's what the Add/Remove applet it forApr 12 23:53
DaemonFCthat lits the most common things people wantApr 12 23:54
DaemonFCthe rest is listed in Synaptic and it provides more options for package maintenanceApr 12 23:54
*DavidGerard is off nowApr 12 23:54
DavidGerardnite allApr 12 23:54
schestowitzDavidGerard: regardign Java, exactlyApr 12 23:54
*DavidGerard has quit ("Leaving")Apr 12 23:54
schestowitzThat's why MS hired a shill in NovellApr 12 23:54
schestowitzOh, he's goneApr 12 23:54
DaemonFCafter that you drop to the terminal and use dpkg or apt if you need to use a FORCE flag or somethingApr 12 23:54
DaemonFCschestowitz: The only really stupid thing Debian's package manager does is that it doesn't know that x86-64 is backwards compatible with x86-32Apr 12 23:55
DaemonFCso you have to use --force-architectureApr 12 23:55
schestowitzI won't go there.Apr 12 23:56
schestowitzComplexity that's not requiredApr 12 23:56
MinceRthere's a bug that makes kwin tint the area behind the window with some random color i'm not sure the origin of (window title/border color?) if it's set to have no borderApr 12 23:57
DaemonFCx86-64 runs practically all user mode applications that x86-32 can, plus its ownApr 12 23:57
DaemonFCit's an extension, not a totally new archApr 12 23:58
DaemonFCDpkg acts like you're trying to install MIPS software or something B-)Apr 12 23:58
MinceR(though compiz isn't exactly bugfree either)Apr 12 23:58

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