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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 12th, 2009 - Part 2



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twitterit seems to work very wellApr 12 02:26
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oiaohmYou don't have the coders you cannot have maintaince.Apr 12 02:26
oiaohmYou don't have the coders you cannot have features.Apr 12 02:26
twitteryou only lack coders when no one is interestedApr 12 02:27
twitterthat's not really a problemApr 12 02:27
twitterit's a featureApr 12 02:27
oiaohmDepending on the complexity of feature or maintance some require full time coders.Apr 12 02:27
oiaohmInterest is generated.Apr 12 02:27
seller_liaroiaohm: it only one needs a coder for maintenanceApr 12 02:27
oiaohmLOLApr 12 02:28
oiaohmWhat is the problem with only 1 coder.Apr 12 02:28
seller_liaroiaohm:  only 1 coder can , fix bug one by oneApr 12 02:28
seller_liaroiaohm: features notApr 12 02:28
oiaohmLack of means to look at problem from different points of view and fix the problem in the most effective way.Apr 12 02:28
seller_liaroiaohm: features needs a lot of codersApr 12 02:28
twitterif only one person is interested in the software, the software is of little interest.Apr 12 02:29
oiaohmSo 1 coder you end up with a crap program in most cases.Apr 12 02:29
oiaohmdue to that coders lack of skill.Apr 12 02:29
seller_liaroiaohm: But sometimes we need to live this wayApr 12 02:29
oiaohmA project with one coder is not living its dieing.Apr 12 02:29
seller_liarIn fact free software existis to replace proprietary softwareApr 12 02:30
oiaohmNoApr 12 02:30
seller_liarAmarok to replace windows media playerApr 12 02:30
oiaohmFree software existed before proprietary software.Apr 12 02:30
oiaohmproprietary software is the latter invention.Apr 12 02:30
seller_liarIt windows media player or winamp don t exist , people don get interest to do a playerApr 12 02:30
oiaohmLOLApr 12 02:31
twitterfree software exists because people want to make their computers work and they want to do it with freedom and cooperationApr 12 02:31
oiaohmThere were media players before both of them.Apr 12 02:31
seller_liarSoory , bad ideaApr 12 02:31
seller_liarAgainApr 12 02:31
oiaohmCompanies use open soruce for cooperation with each other.Apr 12 02:31
seller_liarThe need for features in free software  exist because someone have created features in proprietary softwareApr 12 02:32
oiaohmSo they can have bigger coding teams and get better quality code with the features they need.Apr 12 02:32
twitterYou think people need to see a commercial player to want their computers to play music?Apr 12 02:32
oiaohmBlender has some features no proprietray software currently in production has.Apr 12 02:32
seller_liarIf some features don t exist in proprietray software , then the free software don t need to implement such featuresApr 12 02:32
oiaohmAnd those were added in the time of Open source.Apr 12 02:33
seller_liaronly and , if only , the coder wantsApr 12 02:33
oiaohmAnd those features come from commerical coders working for video prodution companies.Apr 12 02:33
oiaohmLike the Linux kernel 80 perent of it patches come from commerical coders.Apr 12 02:34
seller_liarFree software is not obligated to implement features , if the same features don t exist in proprietary softwareApr 12 02:34
oiaohmPeople don't understand most of great open source project is work by commerial coders.Apr 12 02:34
seller_liarbecause people don want features because these features does not even existApr 12 02:35
oiaohmFree software don't have to create features that exist in propriertay software eitehr.Apr 12 02:35
oiaohmLike blender is not going to copy some features of maya.Apr 12 02:35
oiaohmLike the maya scripting language.Apr 12 02:35
seller_liaroiaohm: maya is more popularApr 12 02:35
oiaohmLOLApr 12 02:36
oiaohmMaya and blender are equal on usage.Apr 12 02:36
seller_liaroiaohm: not because of scripting language ,but because another movie-tech featuresApr 12 02:36
oiaohmTo be correct blender is more used.Apr 12 02:36
oiaohmMain reason is the freedom to add features as needed.Apr 12 02:36
oiaohmMaya cannot do something you are basically stuffed.Apr 12 02:37
oiaohmBlender here coder make this for me.Apr 12 02:37
seller_liaroiaohm: But this causes serious problems to free softwareApr 12 02:37
oiaohmNo it does not.Apr 12 02:37
seller_liaroiaohm: because , it needs more coders to maintenance and implement featuresApr 12 02:37
seller_liaroiaohm: We don t implement features all the time if people don t needApr 12 02:37
oiaohmAnd they are simple to get.Apr 12 02:37
oiaohmProject who does not fear intergrating with commerical does not have problems.Apr 12 02:38
seller_liaroiaohm: Again , the big problem in free software is the featuresApr 12 02:38
oiaohmNoApr 12 02:38
seller_liaroiaohm: because it costs too muchApr 12 02:38
oiaohmNopApr 12 02:38
oiaohmCost is not the issue.Apr 12 02:39
seller_liaroiaohm: Yes , it isApr 12 02:39
oiaohmWhy can ammorok have full time coders and rymthombox cannot.Apr 12 02:39
seller_liarlook rhythmboxApr 12 02:39
oiaohmWhy can 1 have it and the other not.Apr 12 02:39
seller_liarTo implement a lot of featuresApr 12 02:40
oiaohmKDE does not fear working with commericalsApr 12 02:40
oiaohmTo be correct they go out of there way to get there.Apr 12 02:40
seller_liaroiaohm:But this causes dependancyApr 12 02:40
seller_liaroiaohm: We need to boycott novell because novell is crazyApr 12 02:40
oiaohmNot if you have enough competeting companies.Apr 12 02:40
seller_liarbut we don t because novell helps a lot of projectsApr 12 02:41
seller_liaryou see?Apr 12 02:41
seller_liarcommecial support creates dependencyApr 12 02:41
oiaohmGnome never went out of it way to get more than one sponscor.Apr 12 02:41
oiaohmSingle entity commerial support creates dependancy.Apr 12 02:41
oiaohmProjects like the Linux kernel with many companies there is really not a dependency problem.Apr 12 02:42
seller_liaroiaohm: But only a few projects has more than one sponsorApr 12 02:42
oiaohmHave those projects tried to get more.Apr 12 02:42
oiaohmAs they should have.Apr 12 02:42
seller_liaroiaohm: It's not sooo easytApr 12 02:42
oiaohmSupprising it is.Apr 12 02:42
oiaohmAmmrok went from 0 to 15 in 1 month.Apr 12 02:43
seller_liaroiaohm: It dependsApr 12 02:43
seller_liaroiaohm: Some companies like microsoft put very constraints in novellApr 12 02:43
oiaohmso why deal with Novell.Apr 12 02:43
seller_liarIBM is very radical in Linux foundationApr 12 02:43
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seller_liarLinux foundation because of sponsor loses the interest in free softwareApr 12 02:45
oiaohmLOLApr 12 02:45
oiaohmLinux foundation why was it created.Apr 12 02:45
oiaohmIt was a solution to a bidding war to employ linus.Apr 12 02:46
seller_liaroiaohm: Linux foundation does not have interest in fsfApr 12 02:46
oiaohmWhy should it.Apr 12 02:46
seller_liaroiaohm: OpenSource sponsored does not change nothingApr 12 02:46
oiaohmIt exists to support Linux.Apr 12 02:46
oiaohmJust like the KDE foundation exists to support KDE.Apr 12 02:47
seller_liarYes , but sponsor interests is put in first priorityApr 12 02:47
seller_liarLike mono in gnomeApr 12 02:48
oiaohmLead coder has more effects than sponsorApr 12 02:49
oiaohmTPM support in Linux kernel is a good example of that.Apr 12 02:49
seller_liarhaha , do  you believe in such lie?Apr 12 02:49
oiaohmIBM patch was rejected may times.  sponsorship did not change the outcome of quality checks.Apr 12 02:50
oiaohmWhen sponsor appoints the lead coder then you have a problem.Apr 12 02:50
oiaohmGnome again.Apr 12 02:50
seller_liarOk you win!Apr 12 02:51
seller_liarBut I think the real problem in software is the lack of investiment in documentationApr 12 02:51
oiaohmYou don't get documtation while people are run of there feet fixing things.Apr 12 02:51
seller_liarnot only stupid doxyfiles , but a compllete explanation of software (development aspects ,algorithms, coding etc....Apr 12 02:52
oiaohmBecause documentation writers get pissed of at things changing.Apr 12 02:52
oiaohmAnd leave.Apr 12 02:52
seller_liaroiaohm: The solution is enforce to document every commitApr 12 02:52
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oiaohmMaintaince stable is key to documentation.Apr 12 02:52
oiaohmAll problems start from one point.Apr 12 02:53
oiaohmThe coders.Apr 12 02:53
seller_liarand documentation have a price, but it helps the obtains more codersApr 12 02:53
oiaohmRemember documentaiton that is valid cannot be formed without stable mainatince from the existing coders.Apr 12 02:54
oiaohmExisting coders can basically kill the project future.Apr 12 02:54
seller_liarof course , it like tests , but good documentation attract more devsApr 12 02:54
oiaohmValid documenation.Apr 12 02:54
oiaohmOk does not have to be great.Apr 12 02:54
oiaohmBut it must be correct.  Nothing is worse for a new developer following a document that is incorrect.Apr 12 02:55
oiaohmNo documentation is better than invalid.Apr 12 02:55
seller_liarIt's more better than undocumentedApr 12 02:56
seller_liarseller_liar: The problem is lack of accessible documentationApr 12 02:56
seller_liaroiaohm: We need to write very easy documentation for beginnersApr 12 02:57
seller_liardoxyfiles are not good documentation for beginnersApr 12 02:57
seller_liardoxyfiles helps only developersApr 12 02:57
seller_liarI hate doxyfiles!Apr 12 02:57
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seller_liarDo you have some idea to remove mono from ubuntu and all other distros?Apr 12 03:06
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joseschestowitz, for when you get back, here are two links. If you have them, no harm in repeating I suppose:Apr 12 03:48
josehttp://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald...Apr 12 03:48
josehttp://www.salon.com/opinio...Apr 12 03:48
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DaemonFC"I am not just a fanboy, my hatred of them runs deep and on many levels" -MeApr 12 06:38
DaemonFCB-)Apr 12 06:38
DaemonFC"them" refers to Apple and MicrosoftApr 12 06:38
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DaemonFCschestowitz: Someone from Microsoft emailed meApr 12 08:40
schestowitzOf courseApr 12 08:40
schestowitzOffered you somethingApr 12 08:40
DaemonFCtheir official line on the NTFS data corruption issue is a SATA bugApr 12 08:40
DaemonFCin Windows 7 build 7057Apr 12 08:40
schestowitzI heard about it beforeApr 12 08:40
schestowitzThey isolate dissentApr 12 08:40
schestowitzThey have agencies to track thisApr 12 08:40
DaemonFCno, they haven't offered me anythingApr 12 08:40
schestowitzWaggenerEApr 12 08:40
schestowitzDaemonFC: probably being polite to change one's opinionApr 12 08:41
schestowitzI read stories about how they workApr 12 08:41
DaemonFCschestowitz: I'd probably take the bribe then not do the positive retraction bitApr 12 08:41
DaemonFCB-)Apr 12 08:41
schestowitzIn other cases they offered giftsApr 12 08:41
schestowitzLike to CharlieD from The InquirerApr 12 08:41
schestowitzbecause he wrote scathing reports about VistaApr 12 08:42
DaemonFCschestowitz: "I'm writing this entry on the laptop Microsoft tried to buy me with, it runs Linux now, I still hate Windows but I appreciate the gift"Apr 12 08:42
DaemonFClolApr 12 08:42
schestowitzThe very fact that they contacted you is further confirmation of the Microsoft patrol for Vista7 defenseApr 12 08:42
schestowitzIt's a known thingApr 12 08:42
schestowitzThey hire people in agencies like Edelman for thisApr 12 08:42
DaemonFCthey didn't say they were MSApr 12 08:42
schestowitzW-E gave laptop bribesApr 12 08:42
DaemonFCbut I traced the IP to a block MS ownsApr 12 08:42
DaemonFCso it was themApr 12 08:42
schestowitzAny sig?Apr 12 08:43
schestowitzMaybe one of their agencies.Apr 12 08:43
DaemonFCand the guy knew too much about Windows 7 to not work for themApr 12 08:43
DaemonFCwell, they seem to be using Comcast lines in MinnesotaApr 12 08:43
DaemonFCcause I got a lot of hatemail from other IP blocks belonging to Comcast in MinnesotaApr 12 08:44
DaemonFCit was different IPs, but there were all in Minnesota and they belong to ComcastApr 12 08:44
DaemonFCso I think MS is buying Comcast cable lines for these agencies to post comments withApr 12 08:45
DaemonFCthat way if they leave a comment on your blog it doesn't look like it's all coming from MSApr 12 08:45
DaemonFCit's pretty funny really, it's been everything from unintelligible cursing to "You were doing it wrong" to this latest responseApr 12 08:46
DaemonFCI think it's all one guy and he's a meat puppetApr 12 08:47
DaemonFCIf I was thinking more I would have saved themApr 12 08:48
DaemonFCbut it didn't occur to me how much of that I was getting til just nowApr 12 08:49
schestowitzThey hire for thatApr 12 08:49
DaemonFCso it will be interesting to see how much more I getApr 12 08:49
schestowitzMicrosoft employees blew the whistleApr 12 08:49
schestowitzBN gets comments from Novell employees tooApr 12 08:49
schestowitzIn disguiseApr 12 08:49
schestowitzThey got caughtApr 12 08:49
DaemonFChehApr 12 08:49
DaemonFCNothing like telling what you really feel about their productApr 12 08:49
schestowitzIt's like the MS StatsiApr 12 08:50
schestowitzNot sure about the spelling.. pronnounciationApr 12 08:50
DaemonFCif they paid programmers to fix Windows instead of street gangs to harass bloggersApr 12 08:50
schestowitzThey have you checked nowApr 12 08:50
DaemonFCmaybe this stuff would get fixedApr 12 08:50
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StaziApr 12 08:50
DaemonFCI know what that isApr 12 08:50
DaemonFCbut it seems like if they spent money on fixing Windows instead of advertising and trying to threaten and bribeApr 12 08:51
DaemonFCthen their product would be goodApr 12 08:51
DaemonFCand advertise itselfApr 12 08:51
DaemonFCI think Apple had an ad making fun of thatApr 12 08:51
DaemonFC:)Apr 12 08:51
schestowitzIt's the 'Homeland Security' of Germany at the time BTWApr 12 08:51
schestowitzDaemonFC: it's something like that with advertising, yes...Apr 12 08:52
schestowitzThey put 300/500m in the potApr 12 08:52
schestowitzBack around Mojava/Seinfeld daysApr 12 08:52
schestowitz*MojaveApr 12 08:52
DaemonFC$500 million would hire many programmers for many man hoursApr 12 08:52
schestowitzThese campaigns dfid not workApr 12 08:52
DaemonFCand could sort Windows out into a decent systemApr 12 08:52
DaemonFCand instead they hire SeinfeldApr 12 08:52
schestowitzPlan B was publicity stunts with betas and pre-betasApr 12 08:53
schestowitzOne person in ZDNet said half a billionApr 12 08:53
schestowitz"If you can't make it good, at least make it look good.” --Bill gatesApr 12 08:53
schestowitzDaemonFC: I jnow they could us eprogrammersApr 12 08:53
schestowitzBut it ain't enoughApr 12 08:54
schestowitzAlso, Vista 7 is developed in Bangalore AFAIKApr 12 08:54
DaemonFCwouldn't surprise meApr 12 08:54
DaemonFCIE isApr 12 08:54
DaemonFCschestowitz: IE 8 has gotten a lot better, unfortunately it was in the pits when they started actively developing it againApr 12 08:56
DaemonFCso it's still years behind the othersApr 12 08:56
DaemonFCI dunno, I'm using IE on that test system while I kick Windows 7 aroundApr 12 08:57
DaemonFCI don't see myself buying 7 tthoughApr 12 08:57
schestowitzIs it not a 'free' upgrade?Apr 12 08:59
schestowitzTo Vista victim (the first edition)?Apr 12 08:59
schestowitzAnother review of Vista 7: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/1...Apr 12 09:00
DaemonFCschestowitz: Vista was the last straw for meApr 12 09:10
DaemonFCI only checked out 7 cause the beta is freeApr 12 09:11
schestowitzI would not bother myselfApr 12 09:11
DaemonFCI didn't even buy Vista, I got a remanufactured PC and they said No OS, and left the last guy's Vista copy on thereApr 12 09:11
DaemonFChis data and allApr 12 09:11
schestowitzNew PCs will be saddled with Vista7Apr 12 09:11
DaemonFCso I figured since I had it, I'd use it for a few days and see if I liked itApr 12 09:11
schestowitzBut not many people buy PCsApr 12 09:11
schestowitzChina is the fastest growing economy nowApr 12 09:12
DaemonFCwell of courseApr 12 09:12
DaemonFCeveryone else in the world is buying crap from ChinaApr 12 09:12
DaemonFCand trying to be a country of IP ownersApr 12 09:13
DaemonFCthat's what the WTO is, they're the patent enforcement muscleApr 12 09:13
DaemonFCschestowitz: Basically, widespread unemployment was always going to be the result of thisApr 12 09:14
DaemonFCthe wealthy elite knew it 20 years ago, they didn't care cause they are the few that benefitApr 12 09:14
schestowitzYes, hence some secret summitsApr 12 09:18
schestowitzTopic: "how to cope with world power transition"Apr 12 09:18
DaemonFCschestowitz: Unemployment in this area is 10% or higher, and that's just what the government is admittingApr 12 09:19
DaemonFCsome areas of this state are at 15% or moreApr 12 09:19
DaemonFCpoliticians always know how to wedge in divisive social issues to take the focus off this stuffApr 12 09:20
DaemonFCand they always extend unemployment benefits in an election yearApr 12 09:20
DaemonFCpeople are conditioned by this society to want a quick fix and not a long term solution, they think in the term of today or this weekApr 12 09:21
DaemonFCnot what happens to them in 10 yearsApr 12 09:22
schestowitzThe state of Microsoft security this week: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/12/...Apr 12 09:22
schestowitzDaemonFC: not trueApr 12 09:22
schestowitzUnemployment is much higherApr 12 09:22
schestowitzThey deceive the American publicApr 12 09:22
DaemonFCschestowitz: I ran the numbers on the Conficker thing installing the fack antivirusApr 12 09:22
schestowitzThey changed the way they countApr 12 09:23
schestowitzit creats optimismApr 12 09:23
schestowitzAlso, it makes the numbers not comparableApr 12 09:23
DaemonFCif even 1% of users pay the $50 ransom, then the virus author makes $10 millionApr 12 09:23
DaemonFCassuming 20 million infected PCsApr 12 09:23
schestowitzLike, they not have an 'expiration' on unemployment statisApr 12 09:23
schestowitzSo that they can show disparity wrt The Great DepressionApr 12 09:23
schestowitzIt's a well known fact to those who /check/Apr 12 09:23
schestowitzAgreed about social issues. Clash of civilisation deflect the issuesApr 12 09:24
schestowitz*tionsApr 12 09:24
DaemonFCschestowitz: By my calculations, it's actually more profitable to write viruses for Windows than legitimate softwareApr 12 09:25
schestowitzDaemonFC: the economics of cybercrime are a brute-force thingApr 12 09:25
schestowitzAnd it triples by some criteria. Skilled engineers out of work and money lends to the problemApr 12 09:25
DaemonFCyou mean like "Microsoft laid me off, I know the ins and outs of Windows, I can make a ransomware virus that spreads unchecked."Apr 12 09:26
schestowitzThat tooApr 12 09:27
schestowitzI thought about itApr 12 09:27
schestowitzDisgruntled employees don't need to become crackersApr 12 09:27
schestowitzBut they can sell source codeApr 12 09:27
DaemonFCtrueApr 12 09:27
DaemonFCI saw the NT4/Windows 2000 source that leakedApr 12 09:28
DaemonFCyears backApr 12 09:28
DaemonFConly a portion of itApr 12 09:28
DaemonFCit got swiped off a system that belonged to a company that was using it to port Internet Explorer to UNIXApr 12 09:28
schestowitzIt's impossible to prevent uch leaksApr 12 09:29
schestowitzThe code must be assumed to have already be leakedApr 12 09:29
schestowitzMight as we go Free softwareApr 12 09:29
schestowitzSame with the music and gaming industry (DRM)Apr 12 09:30
schestowitzI can assure you there are WIndows source code leaks that DONT end up on the NetApr 12 09:30
schestowitzIt's enough to have a Microsoft employee with a stolen laptop. That too is a leakApr 12 09:30
DaemonFCyeahApr 12 09:31
DaemonFCwell, the shared source thing makes it worseApr 12 09:31
schestowitzHere in the UK there are many similar discussions about large database because they ALWAYS get leaked sooner or later. Not to the INTERNET... to people who can use this data to advertise, defraud, etc.Apr 12 09:31
schestowitz*databasesApr 12 09:31
DaemonFCcause then you have governments and other organizations with source codeApr 12 09:31
schestowitzhttp://twitter.com/_Goblin/s... "_Goblin Windows 7: "Driver trashes OS" - Whats to come when it hits the shelves? "Apr 12 09:32
schestowitzPhew. That was FAST.Apr 12 09:32
DaemonFC"How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a lightbulb? None. Their marketing team tells you to buy a new lamp." -MeApr 12 09:33
DaemonFC:)Apr 12 09:33
oiaohmReally its not that.Apr 12 09:35
oiaohmIts numbers of developers.Apr 12 09:35
DaemonFCthat was my pointApr 12 09:35
DaemonFCthe more people that have the code, the more the chance that someone leaks itApr 12 09:35
schestowitzoiaohm: maybe Microsoft will be shavedApr 12 09:36
schestowitzUntil the skin which is Windows and Office remainsApr 12 09:36
schestowitzNo Encarta, no MSN..Apr 12 09:36
oiaohmBasically Microsoft engineers and a light bulb fails its not important because they are too busy holding up the walls so the roof don't fall inApr 12 09:36
schestowitzMSN is still losing LOADS of moneyApr 12 09:36
schestowitzBut it's the only way Microsoft can hit Google in the pocketApr 12 09:36
schestowitzSo it's stratgic suicide to give up and stop the painApr 12 09:36
schestowitzThey rely on the Bartz/Icahn plants of theirs now.Apr 12 09:37
schestowitzTwo phony 'businesspeople'Apr 12 09:37
oiaohmMS has no option bar to do stratgic suicide and hope Windows 7 sells.Apr 12 09:37
DaemonFChow can you LOSE money when you sell people nothing for hundreds of dollars?Apr 12 09:37
schestowitzDaemonFC: chances of leaks increase because of offshoringApr 12 09:37
schestowitzVista 7 is developed in IndiaApr 12 09:37
schestowitzThe rules there might be differentApr 12 09:37
oiaohmHow much do you think it costs to develop a OS.Apr 12 09:38
schestowitzThe only way they 'control' leaks is by dividingApr 12 09:38
schestowitzThis costs in terms of qualityApr 12 09:38
oiaohmRemember UNIX's useless to sell at 3000 dollars a copy to recovery development costs.Apr 12 09:38
schestowitzThe WSJ confirmed that one employee will be given just one part of the systemApr 12 09:38
schestowitzNo access to other partsApr 12 09:38
oiaohmMS under cut now they are paying.Apr 12 09:38
schestowitzSo they can't integrate properlyApr 12 09:38
schestowitzThat's why Longhorn died when WSJ wrote about itApr 12 09:38
schestowitz "Code spaghetti"Apr 12 09:38
DaemonFCoh that's not important, if you sell tens or hundreds of millions of copies of it at hundreds of dollars for the cost of a CD and a box, you can make any costs upApr 12 09:39
oiaohmRemember Vista development costs were more than what it costs to go to the moon.Apr 12 09:39
schestowitzBSApr 12 09:39
schestowitzThat's what they sayApr 12 09:39
schestowitzIt makes people value itApr 12 09:39
schestowitzPerceived valueApr 12 09:39
schestowitzThey said 6 billiobApr 12 09:39
schestowitzThey count also Longhorn which was trashedApr 12 09:39
DaemonFCAnd at least the astronauts got to play golf.Apr 12 09:39
schestowitzAnd these numbers are as made up as the MPAA'sApr 12 09:40
schestowitzOr the BSA (they hire firms to cook the numbers)Apr 12 09:40
oiaohmAlso ms has to pay patents on every copy sold.Apr 12 09:40
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, that tooApr 12 09:40
schestowitzWhich is why, as we mentioned days ago, the 'piracy' issue is seriousApr 12 09:40
oiaohmXP in netbooks is basically zero profit.Apr 12 09:40
schestowitzMicrosoft can lose per copyApr 12 09:40
schestowitzSo when people pay zilch for Windows, Microsoft can be held liable for the costs of the patents involved.Apr 12 09:41
schestowitzoiaohm: assuming only that engineers who maintain XP cost nothingApr 12 09:41
DaemonFCHmmm, I never thought of that. If Microsoft is giving XP away free to dump it onto netbooks, but still have to pay to license things like MPEG by the copy, they can lose money.Apr 12 09:41
oiaohmCurrently its 25 dollars.Apr 12 09:41
schestowitzIf you sell something at a $5 margin, then you need to cut engineers too. Simple situation.Apr 12 09:41
oiaohmfor XP what is basically break even on patents.Apr 12 09:42
schestowitzoiaohm: less than thatApr 12 09:42
schestowitz$5 in ChinaApr 12 09:42
schestowitzFrom a fairly reliable sourceApr 12 09:42
schestowitzI saw $3 and $4 in other placesApr 12 09:42
oiaohmYep less than the cost of patents.Apr 12 09:42
schestowitzThey assemble these in ChinaApr 12 09:42
schestowitzThey get it for $5 as a drop-inApr 12 09:42
oiaohmSo MS is bleeding money.Apr 12 09:42
schestowitzThe OEMs are told to parrot other numbersApr 12 09:42
oiaohmFighting Linux.Apr 12 09:42
schestowitzMicrosoft DOES not want people to know the real priceApr 12 09:42
schestowitzIt devalues the OSApr 12 09:42
schestowitzLike selling a fancy meal for $5Apr 12 09:42
schestowitzWould you come the following week and pay $150 for the same meal?Apr 12 09:43
oiaohmYep basically -20Apr 12 09:43
oiaohmMS cannot aford to sell windows for 0 dollars.Apr 12 09:43
schestowitzIt's a marketing techniqueApr 12 09:43
schestowitzPut high price tagApr 12 09:43
schestowitzMake it look like a margainApr 12 09:43
oiaohmIt called offseting.Apr 12 09:43
schestowitzSo Microsoft wants people to think that OEMs pay $200 for WindowsApr 12 09:43
schestowitzAnd any low cost of the machine is then "magic"Apr 12 09:44
schestowitzReduced magically by 50%. Shopping channels harness this psychological technique pretty well.Apr 12 09:44
schestowitzPeople love to say what their stuff is worthApr 12 09:44
schestowitzNot what they paidApr 12 09:44
oiaohmHow much is it costing to develop windows 7.Apr 12 09:44
DaemonFCschestowitz: My mom is in the market for a netbookApr 12 09:44
schestowitzLike, "my iPhone is worth $600"Apr 12 09:45
oiaohmBecause that is also eating into the profit market.Apr 12 09:45
DaemonFCI was thinking a Dell Mini with Ubuntu?Apr 12 09:45
schestowitz[but... I bought it in eBay for $200... SHEESH]Apr 12 09:45
oiaohmApple still made a profit at tht.Apr 12 09:45
schestowitzDaemonFC: these are goodApr 12 09:45
oiaohmthat.Apr 12 09:45
DaemonFCHeh, my dad still uses OpenSuseApr 12 09:45
schestowitzwispy from this channel bought one for her momApr 12 09:45
schestowitzShe loves itApr 12 09:45
DaemonFChe got used to it before the MS deal, back when they were goodApr 12 09:45
DaemonFC*sigh*Apr 12 09:46
schestowitzoiaohm: Microsoft has alreadt admitted netbook lossApr 12 09:46
schestowitzThey know it would be worse if Linux was soldApr 12 09:46
schestowitzLinux sold =$0 to MicrosoftApr 12 09:46
schestowitzWindows sold =$0 to MicrosoftApr 12 09:46
oiaohmThey fear Linux will spreed up market.Apr 12 09:46
DaemonFCschestowitz: He had all his partitions in ReiserFS when a hard disk crashedApr 12 09:46
schestowitzWindows sold = more market share to MicrosoftApr 12 09:46
schestowitzLinux sold = less market share to MicrosoftApr 12 09:46
DaemonFCit wasn't fun trying to recover his dataApr 12 09:46
schestowitzSimple equationApr 12 09:46
schestowitzThey talked about it internallyApr 12 09:46
oiaohmReiserfs is evil.Apr 12 09:46
DaemonFChe got a new hard drive for it, I formatted it in XFSApr 12 09:47
DaemonFCwhich is what I useApr 12 09:47
schestowitz"under NO circumstance lose against Linux": http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/14...Apr 12 09:47
oiaohmYepApr 12 09:47
DaemonFCReiser is a son of a bitch to try to recoverApr 12 09:47
schestowitzThe cost (to MSFT) is the marginsApr 12 09:47
oiaohmYet by following that they are breaking the bank.Apr 12 09:47
schestowitzDevaluation of stuff... like drugs going genericApr 12 09:47
DaemonFCand if you try to rebuild the file system structure it can cause even more corruptionApr 12 09:48
oiaohmI do data recovery DaemonFCApr 12 09:48
schestowitzThe pharma cartel is being boosted by Melenda and Pearly by the wayApr 12 09:48
schestowitzVery evil stuffApr 12 09:48
oiaohmI have only had to do 60 raiserfs systems so far.Apr 12 09:48
schestowitzThey put price tag on health and then use taxpayers to pay for iApr 12 09:48
schestowitz*itApr 12 09:48
oiaohmI would take ext any day over it.Apr 12 09:48
DaemonFCoiaohm: I got used to XFS years agoApr 12 09:48
DaemonFCit can toss around monster files like nothingApr 12 09:49
DaemonFClove itApr 12 09:49
oiaohmI have had borked XFSApr 12 09:49
DaemonFC2.6.30 just got 61 patches relating to XFSApr 12 09:49
oiaohmTo be correct there is not a single filesystem I have not had borked yet.Apr 12 09:50
DaemonFCthat's more patches than in the last 20 kernel releases put togetherApr 12 09:50
oiaohmZFS borked is hell.Apr 12 09:50
oiaohmMakes reiserfs look simple.Apr 12 09:50
DaemonFCmeh, if it's on a hard disk, don't trust itApr 12 09:50
DaemonFCXFS is a fairly good balance of everythingApr 12 09:50
oiaohmLack of compression let XFS down.Apr 12 09:51
DaemonFCI don't need thatApr 12 09:51
oiaohmDoes become important when people are copying large files between drives.Apr 12 09:51
DaemonFCXFS has tremendously good performance in most casesApr 12 09:51
oiaohmSo it can happen quicker.Apr 12 09:51
DaemonFCdeleting tons of small files can be a problemApr 12 09:51
DaemonFCbut that's the only thing I've ran into reallyApr 12 09:51
oiaohmSome of the patches in 2.6.30 will fix that up.Apr 12 09:52
oiaohmPart of the problem with small files deleting is a locking issue.Apr 12 09:52
DaemonFCyeah, side effect of the changes to the kernel because they care about Ext4Apr 12 09:52
DaemonFCand XFS is being patched up to use the same facilitiesApr 12 09:52
oiaohmReally not.Apr 12 09:52
oiaohmLinux kernel is having a massive internal clean up.Apr 12 09:53
DaemonFCXFS used to have to use an ioctl in the XFS driver to preallocateApr 12 09:53
DaemonFCfor exampleApr 12 09:53
DaemonFCnow there's one in the kernel for Ext4 or any file system that does thatApr 12 09:53
oiaohmioctl number is the same.Apr 12 09:53
oiaohmJust renamed to a generic name.Apr 12 09:53
DaemonFCahhhApr 12 09:53
oiaohmSince XFS Ext4 and Btrfs will use it.Apr 12 09:54
oiaohmAnd hopefully more.Apr 12 09:54
DaemonFCYeah, XFS is less tempting with Ext4 availableApr 12 09:54
DaemonFCbut it's been debugged better, and it still has a few nice things Ext4 doesn'tApr 12 09:54
oiaohmExt4 has extents.Apr 12 09:55
DaemonFCyeah, there's thatApr 12 09:55
DaemonFCbut if you upgrade an ext3 fs you need to run e4defragApr 12 09:55
DaemonFCand that's not included with e2fsprogs yetApr 12 09:55
DaemonFCso most of your files will still be in the old formatApr 12 09:55
oiaohmThere is a way to run e4defrag from a proc call.Apr 12 09:55
oiaohmYes cat 1 > <rightfile>Apr 12 09:56
DaemonFConce e4defrag is out, upgrading from ext3 will make senseApr 12 09:56
oiaohmthe defrager is really in the kernel.Apr 12 09:56
DaemonFCoh?Apr 12 09:56
oiaohmext4 has online defraging.Apr 12 09:56
DaemonFCso does XFSApr 12 09:56
oiaohmYep.Apr 12 09:57
DaemonFCthrough xfs_fsrApr 12 09:57
oiaohmBasically all e4defrag does is push the right kernel switch.Apr 12 09:57
DaemonFChehApr 12 09:57
DaemonFCso you can use it without having e4defrag?Apr 12 09:57
oiaohmYepApr 12 09:57
DaemonFChow do you make it make a pass over every file on the disk?Apr 12 09:58
DaemonFCthat's worth posting somewhereApr 12 09:58
DaemonFChmmm, some of the changes in 2.6.30 sometimes make my system unstable after resume from S3Apr 12 10:00
DaemonFCone build will freeze up after a while, the next build won'tApr 12 10:00
DaemonFCit's been off and onApr 12 10:00
DaemonFCLinux ryan-desktop 2.6.30-rc1-git5-ryan1 #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Apr 11 23:03:42 EDT 2009 x86_64 GNU/LinuxApr 12 10:01
DaemonFChaven't tried it with this one yetApr 12 10:01
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oiaohmThey are working on that s3 issue.Apr 12 10:03
oiaohmIts preempt releated.Apr 12 10:03
DaemonFCfiguresApr 12 10:03
oiaohmIe section that should not be preempted is being.Apr 12 10:03
oiaohmdoes not only  effect s3Apr 12 10:04
oiaohmKVM had a nasty.Apr 12 10:04
oiaohmLeft CPU in a undefined state.Apr 12 10:04
DaemonFCjust preemptApr 12 10:08
DaemonFCor is it a RCU preempt issue?Apr 12 10:08
DaemonFCI think RCU preempt has been known to cause more problems, right?Apr 12 10:09
DaemonFCthat's why it is separate setting I thinkApr 12 10:09
DaemonFC(could be wrong)Apr 12 10:09
schestowitzWhen people say Microsoft is good for the US, show em this: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/...Apr 12 10:13
oiaohmpreempt was the kvm issue.Apr 12 10:13
oiaohmsection was not marked not be be preempted.Apr 12 10:14
oiaohmSection that is setting the cpu from now on settings for emulation.Apr 12 10:14
oiaohmNot a good thing ever to preempt.Apr 12 10:14
oiaohmAlso you would have noticed that XFS frease and thaw has now moved out of XFS to a generic filesystem feature.Apr 12 10:15
DaemonFCschestowitz: http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/200...Apr 12 10:30
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schestowitzhttp://www.gizmodo.com.au/2009/04/new_pc_ba...Apr 12 10:40
schestowitzThe angle on the Yahoo! story which the press somehow misses: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/0...Apr 12 10:51
MinceRj0Apr 12 11:01
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oiaohmYep windows seven is screwed.Apr 12 11:19
schestowitzNot yetApr 12 11:19
schestowitzIt doesn't existApr 12 11:19
schestowitzIt's marketing thingApr 12 11:19
oiaohmIts screwed.Apr 12 11:19
schestowitzAnd it floats on torrent for COMPUTER ENTHUSIASTS ONLY to useApr 12 11:19
oiaohmIf they don't fix the NTFS driver.Apr 12 11:20
oiaohmIt screwed truly.Apr 12 11:20
oiaohmNTFS driver was tried to speed up in windows 7 its now data loss central.Apr 12 11:20
schestowitzMaybe they'll change before release?Apr 12 11:22
schestowitzThere is lots they can do to spread coverage of it being 'thin'Apr 12 11:22
schestowitzChange FS parameters like latencies for quick boot, remove DRM temporarily, etc.Apr 12 11:22
schestowitzI heard that RC (not public) is worse than that touted betaApr 12 11:22
oiaohmAny form of non planed shutdown on NTFS under Windows 7 will result in damaged filesystem.Apr 12 11:23
schestowitzWhich means they may have cooked somethingApr 12 11:23
oiaohmI have the RCApr 12 11:23
schestowitzAhh...Apr 12 11:23
MinceRthey're copying ext4 nowApr 12 11:23
schestowitzBut they say it leakedApr 12 11:23
MinceR;)Apr 12 11:23
schestowitzWhich I thought was a Microsoft lieApr 12 11:23
oiaohmNo legally have it.Apr 12 11:23
schestowitzTo create sense of (artificial) scarcityApr 12 11:23
schestowitzThey must give devs the impression that this one will succeedApr 12 11:24
schestowitzChicken and eggsApr 12 11:24
oiaohmWhat happens when you know a MS platuim partner.Apr 12 11:24
schestowitzIf Vista7 is seen as DoA, then it WILL beApr 12 11:24
schestowitzBecause it would lack compatibilityApr 12 11:24
oiaohmGave it to me for data recoverry assessment.Apr 12 11:24
oiaohmAs you can guess the report was not good.Apr 12 11:25
oiaohmMinceR worse than ext4 fault.Apr 12 11:26
oiaohmReally ext4 fault is nothing major.Apr 12 11:26
MinceRi know, i was jokingApr 12 11:26
MinceRwhat's the ntfs fault?Apr 12 11:27
oiaohmComplete obleteration of the MFT section of NTFS.Apr 12 11:27
oiaohmSo basically sections of filesystem disappear.Apr 12 11:27
oiaohmCause by dumb ness.  writing MFT interlink directions to blocks before all the data blocks of the MFT are written to disk.Apr 12 11:29
oiaohmAlso doing that to backup copy of MFT before the data is written to disk.Apr 12 11:29
oiaohmYes it saves a few clock cycles.Apr 12 11:30
oiaohmNTFS in vista would only loss a directory or two or 3 or 4.Apr 12 11:30
trmancointeresting -> http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story...Apr 12 11:31
DaemonFCschestowitz: This time Microsoft's goons are posting comments on that video suggesting that I have "downs syndrome"Apr 12 11:32
DaemonFCI removed that comment thoughApr 12 11:32
DaemonFCCan they think of nothing better to do?Apr 12 11:33
trmancoDaemonFC, what video?Apr 12 11:33
DaemonFCLogitech webcam software will destroy Windows 7Apr 12 11:34
trmancothat's coolApr 12 11:35
trmanconice feature btwApr 12 11:35
trmanco:-PApr 12 11:35
oiaohmThere is better.Apr 12 11:36
oiaohmTry installing nortons.Apr 12 11:36
DaemonFChahApr 12 11:36
DaemonFCno thanksApr 12 11:36
oiaohmIn windows 7Apr 12 11:37
DaemonFClast time I bought a Norton product was System Works '98Apr 12 11:37
DaemonFCits extensions to the Windows shell fucked Windows 98 beyond repairApr 12 11:37
DaemonFCand I took it back to Walmart and bitched til they refunded itApr 12 11:37
trmancoDaemonFC, where can I see that in action, the driver thingApr 12 11:38
DaemonFCI caught a picture of what happens every time you rebootApr 12 11:38
DaemonFCit never loads explorerApr 12 11:38
DaemonFCbut I got a picture of my monitor displaying the errorApr 12 11:38
DaemonFChttp://img391.imageshack.us/img3...Apr 12 11:39
oiaohmBasically Windows 7 is less secure than XP.Apr 12 11:39
oiaohmNormal user cannot not screw up XP login screen completely.Apr 12 11:39
trmancohahaApr 12 11:42
MinceRoiaohm: and pre-vista?Apr 12 11:44
MinceRi mean ntfsApr 12 11:44
trmancohttp://www.youtube.com/wa...Apr 12 11:46
trmancoheheApr 12 11:46
schestowitzNetscraft numbers are junk: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/0...Apr 12 11:47
schestowitztrmanco: identi.ca seems brokenApr 12 11:47
trmancoschestowitz, working here for nowApr 12 11:47
schestowitzOh, it's back nowApr 12 11:47
schestowitzDaemonFC: I heard that FUD beforeApr 12 11:48
schestowitzThe suggestion of atrophy of one sortApr 12 11:49
schestowitzIt can be all sort of things, like accusation of 'transgendered', gay, child molester, mentally ill, etc.Apr 12 11:49
DaemonFCI may just disable commentsApr 12 11:49
schestowitzThe shills tried all the above against me cause they can't fight the messagesApr 12 11:50
schestowitz""Ideally, use of the competing technology becomes associated with mental deficiency" --Microsoft < http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/... >Apr 12 11:51
schestowitz"We want to place selection pressure on those companies and individuals that show a genetic weakness for competitors' technologies, to make the industry increasingly resistant to such unhealthy strains, over time." --Microsoft < http://boycottnovell.com/wp-cont... >Apr 12 11:51
DaemonFCschestowitz: I'm turning comment moderation onApr 12 11:51
DaemonFCthat way I can stop their attacks from ever showingApr 12 11:52
trmancoDaemonFC, is that video yours?Apr 12 11:52
schestowitzDaemonFC: you're articulate, so they try to characterise this as a flawApr 12 11:52
schestowitzvery typicalApr 12 11:52
DaemonFCtrmanco?Apr 12 11:52
DaemonFCwhich one?Apr 12 11:52
schestowitzSome idiots used to say that because I am able to post at a rapid pace, then I must be mentally challenged: -)Apr 12 11:52
trmancothis one -> http://www.youtube.com/wa...Apr 12 11:52
schestowitztrmanco: yes, it's himApr 12 11:53
trmancoah, neatApr 12 11:53
schestowitzIt made the front page of FSDaily a moment agoApr 12 11:53
schestowitzWe'll see how far it goes. Some people twit it tooApr 12 11:54
trmancogenius -> http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/...Apr 12 11:55
trmancohahahApr 12 11:55
trmancosomething is wrong with identi.caApr 12 11:57
trmancoit's giving me 500 errors at send messageApr 12 11:57
MinceRFail Whale Emulation Enabled!Apr 12 11:57
trmancohttp://test.portertech.org...Apr 12 11:59
trmancoMinceR, it's just at send message, I can retrieve them perfectlyApr 12 11:59
MinceRicApr 12 11:59
DaemonFCschestowitz: I made a video explaining why ratings are turned offApr 12 12:00
DaemonFC:PApr 12 12:00
DaemonFChehApr 12 12:00
trmancoit works againApr 12 12:01
schestowitztrmanco: yes, identica's bas behaviour is erratic and random.Apr 12 12:01
schestowitzSome PHP errors tooApr 12 12:01
schestowitzFatal error: Call to undefined function xmlrpc_encode_request() in /var/www/identi.ca/plugins/LinkbackPlugin.php on line 124Apr 12 12:01
schestowitzDaemonFC: ignore themApr 12 12:02
schestowitzThey try to embarrass and humiliate critics. Oldest trick in the book.Apr 12 12:02
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/search?q=s...Apr 12 12:02
trmancoidenti.ca is taking an easter breakApr 12 12:04
schestowitz:-)Apr 12 12:10
schestowitzI'm gonna take a break myself. Back in a few hours, it's sunny outside..Apr 12 12:10
trmancookApr 12 12:10
DaemonFChttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTJcHHqfLeQApr 12 12:11
trmanco;)Apr 12 12:13
trmancothey are starting to attack you like they do with schestowitzApr 12 12:13
MinceRit would have been better as textApr 12 12:17
trmancoMinceR, can't play it?Apr 12 12:18
MinceRi couldApr 12 12:18
trmancoahApr 12 12:18
MinceRbut it took a lot more time this wayApr 12 12:18
MinceRspeech is slower than text :)Apr 12 12:19
trmancoyepApr 12 12:19
DaemonFChttp://www.youtube.com/watch?...Apr 12 12:19
DaemonFCuggghApr 12 12:19
trmancololApr 12 12:22
MinceR:)Apr 12 12:22
DaemonFCI liked the "Matrix on Windows XP" one betterApr 12 12:23
DaemonFCthey have some funny stuffApr 12 12:23
DaemonFCMinceR: You know why they names it XP right?Apr 12 12:23
DaemonFCtilt your head to the leftApr 12 12:24
MinceR:)Apr 12 12:24
MinceRi've heard that oneApr 12 12:24
PetoKraushmmApr 12 12:25
DaemonFChttp://www.youtube.com/watc...Apr 12 12:26
PetoKrausi'm looking at the Australian censored sites listApr 12 12:26
PetoKrausat wikileaksApr 12 12:26
PetoKrausit's... inspiring.Apr 12 12:26
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_Hicham_Hi oiaohm!Apr 12 12:36
oiaohmspammers will spam anything http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/4/12/23Apr 12 12:36
oiaohmHi _Hicham_Apr 12 12:36
_Hicham_have u  been spammed before oiaohm?Apr 12 12:36
oiaohmYesApr 12 12:36
oiaohmI have also generated a 1 tb + spam into a email account before showing a server error.Apr 12 12:37
_Hicham_is there any effective spam filter?Apr 12 12:37
oiaohmthere is no such thing as a 100 percent effective filter.Apr 12 12:38
oiaohmspamassisian and its releation do a good job.Apr 12 12:38
_Hicham_what about bayesian ones?Apr 12 12:38
oiaohmhttp://wiki.apache.org/spam...Apr 12 12:39
oiaohmSoApr 12 12:40
MinceRSpamAssassin with score BAYES_99 5Apr 12 12:40
MinceRis pretty goodApr 12 12:40
MinceRonce you train the bayesian filter, of courseApr 12 12:40
oiaohmSpamassassin is one of the oldest main filtering techs.Apr 12 12:41
oiaohmit does not just depend on one trick _Hicham_Apr 12 12:42
oiaohmIt has black lists white lists Bayesin.Apr 12 12:42
oiaohmhttp://wiki.apache.org/spamas...  Trust pathsApr 12 12:43
oiaohmBasically single trick against spam is usless.Apr 12 12:43
_Hicham_so u have to mix filters to be effective?Apr 12 12:46
_Hicham_effective/efficientApr 12 12:46
oiaohmTrust path is highly effective.Apr 12 12:46
oiaohmSince it cuts out fake addresses.Apr 12 12:46
oiaohmyet then you get people who have got themselves infected.Apr 12 12:47
oiaohmSo mail coming on a valid path and they are on the whitelist.Apr 12 12:47
DaemonFCActually the funny thing about arguing with me over who is at fault in Windows 7 is that you're wrong either way, if it's something in the kernel, then it's signed by Microsoft, making it a Windows bug, and if it's something outside the kernel that makes the kernel screw up, it's a Windows bug, because the kernel has veto power. -MeApr 12 12:47


Recent Techrights' Posts

[Video] Microsoft's Attack on Education
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Microsoft Windows Used to Have Nearly 100% in China and Now Google Has 50% (With Android)
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full posting history in RedHat.com
 
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[Meme] Money In, No Money Out (Granting Loads of Invalid European Patents)
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Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Monday, May 20, 2024
IRC logs for Monday, May 20, 2024
[Video] Just Let Julian Assange Go Back to Australia
Assange needs to be freed
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Reprinted with permission from Cyber|Show
Gemini Links 20/05/2024: CMSs and Lua "Post to midnight.pub" Script Alternative
Links for the day
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Transcript included
Links 20/05/2024: Protests and Aggression by Beijing
Links for the day
Can an election campaign succeed without social media accounts?
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
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Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
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Links 20/05/2024: Microsoft Layoffs and Shutdowns, RTO as Silent Layoffs
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Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
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[Meme] Bullying the Victims
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Ian.Community Should be Safer From Trademark Censorship
We wish to discuss this matter very quickly
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Over at Tux Machines...
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IRC Proceedings: Sunday, May 19, 2024
IRC logs for Sunday, May 19, 2024
Gemini Links 20/05/2024: Updated Noto Fontpacks and gemfeed2atom
Links for the day
GNU/Linux in Georgia: Looking Good
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Take note of the Julian Assange case
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Links 19/05/2024: Microsoft Investigated in Europe
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4 Old Articles About Microsoft/IBM SystemD
old but still relevant
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Winning Streak
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Links for the day
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Over at Tux Machines...
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Links for the day