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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 12th, 2009 - Part 1


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taconeyou're our partner, we know you're good, you can do what you want on the system ('till you pay)Apr 12 00:00
*trmanco has quit ("ERROR: crap-talking overflow - Aborting")Apr 12 00:03
MinceRhttp://www.ctrlaltdel-online.c...Apr 12 00:08
DaemonFCschestowitz: Do you want the source or the downconvert?Apr 12 00:08
*DaemonFC sends the downconvertApr 12 00:09
DaemonFCdon't want to mail bomb anyoneApr 12 00:09
twitterLOL at M$'s bar cancellation.  Someone commented, " I guarantee this is Kevin Turner's doing. He once forced several Microsoft conferences to relocate from post-reconstruction New Orleans because he thought Microsoft should not be associated with such a sinful city."Apr 12 00:11
twitterThere's nothing wrong with the city and most of the people in it.  It's the visitors that cause problems as they "let loose" of their puritanical selves.Apr 12 00:12
*tacone observes a minute of silence for the troll tracker. anyone knows how did it end with the trial ?Apr 12 00:12
schestowitzDaemonFC: can do eitherApr 12 00:14
schestowitztacone: trial still goes on, I thinkApr 12 00:15
schestowitzBN holds a mirror of that blogApr 12 00:16
taconewow !Apr 12 00:16
taconereally ?Apr 12 00:16
schestowitzYupApr 12 00:16
schestowitzWe also have BillWatchApr 12 00:16
taconei still can read it on google reader i guessApr 12 00:16
schestowitzThe sites no longer existApr 12 00:16
schestowitzThe author offered it to meApr 12 00:16
taconebut i don't know how much will it last on google.Apr 12 00:16
schestowitzRoyBApr 12 00:16
schestowitztacone: why not?Apr 12 00:16
schestowitzGoogle hates patent trolls.Apr 12 00:16
taconewhy what ?Apr 12 00:17
schestowitzWhy would Google do anything?Apr 12 00:17
schestowitzIt's not something Rick is liable forApr 12 00:17
taconei mean it kept it in the cache of the readerApr 12 00:17
schestowitzIf the trolls like Niro want to take it up with me, they have no Cisco to drag into itApr 12 00:17
taconeyes it's still in the cacheApr 12 00:18
taconebut i didn't found any way to download it from the reader.Apr 12 00:19
taconewhere's the mirror ?Apr 12 00:19
taconefoundApr 12 00:21
taconegreat !Apr 12 00:22
schestowitz:-)Apr 12 00:23
DaemonFC 12 00:24
DaemonFCmy vid about Logitech and Windows 7Apr 12 00:24
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_Hicham_wb oiaohmApr 12 00:37
_Hicham_how r u doing?Apr 12 00:37
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DaemonFCschestowitz: Thoughts?Apr 12 00:38
schestowitzDaemonFC: will watch it in a moment. I'm finishing some links first (daily lump)Apr 12 00:39
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_Hicham_oiaohm is silent, weirdApr 12 00:47
seller_liarI was thinkingApr 12 00:47
seller_liarNovuel de Icaza compares GNU project with mono projectApr 12 00:48
seller_liarThis is wrongApr 12 00:48
oiaohmTalking to a friend _Hicham_Apr 12 00:48
seller_liarGNU Project is different to mono projectApr 12 00:48
seller_liarThe first difference is gnu project don t have a deal with AT&TApr 12 00:48
seller_liarGNU project reject  patents sometimesApr 12 00:49
seller_liarfor example gnu tar don t open z filesApr 12 00:49
seller_liarz files use LZW algorithmApr 12 00:49
_Hicham_schestowitz, since u r familiar with mono, what is the significance of the mono brand ( the picture containg some animal ) ?Apr 12 00:49
twitter"free software" and "open source" are different movementsApr 12 00:50
seller_liarGNU project is open to everyone , mono project is not.... (for example , only novell and m$ know abou monolight documentation)Apr 12 00:50
seller_liarGNU project uses alternative tecnologies , for example dot gnu don t use asp.netApr 12 00:51
seller_liardot gnu promotes a different web-app serverApr 12 00:51
_Hicham_why use .NET?Apr 12 00:51
_Hicham_better stick with pythonApr 12 00:51
oiaohmWhy use .net when we could copy apple.Apr 12 00:51
jumbopython is interpretedApr 12 00:51
oiaohmAnd update gcc to produce universal bytecode.Apr 12 00:52
seller_liarjumbo: but pypy can help in this caseApr 12 00:52
oiaohmThat on install gets converted to native binary.Apr 12 00:52
tacone_Hicham_: mono is 'monkey' in some language.Apr 12 00:52
jumboit produces bytecode?Apr 12 00:52
MinceRwhy not use LLVM or Parrot?Apr 12 00:52
seller_liarpypy can convert to python to jvm ,clr , c, llvmApr 12 00:53
oiaohmYou know apples platform netural binaries ie binarys for x86 or ppc jumboApr 12 00:53
oiaohmAll in one.Apr 12 00:53
oiaohmThey use a part built state.Apr 12 00:53
MinceRafaik apple's binaries just contain 2 binaries (1 for each arch) in 1 fileApr 12 00:53
taconejumbo: google as an ongoing project to speed up python as they did with js.Apr 12 00:53
MinceRhardly innovative.Apr 12 00:53
seller_liarbut the big propblem of pypy is only python 2.4Apr 12 00:53
MinceRhow much of PyPy is completed so far?Apr 12 00:53
seller_liarbut pypy in svn  is usable in some casesApr 12 00:54
_Hicham_I think python is better than .NETApr 12 00:54
taconepypy has not great future imhoApr 12 00:54
oiaohmIntel is now sending a team into gccApr 12 00:54
seller_liarMinceR: I don t know ,I don t have tried top run django in pypyApr 12 00:54
oiaohmAfter the sort out work intel did on X11 it going to be interesting.Apr 12 00:54
MinceRafaik google wants to port python to LLVM or somethingApr 12 00:54
schestowitz_Hicham_: the Mono brand is not strongApr 12 00:55
schestowitzmany linux people hate otApr 12 00:55
schestowitz*itApr 12 00:55
MinceRgnApr 12 00:55
_Hicham_I don't see the utility of .NET in LinuxApr 12 00:55
tacone 12 00:55
_Hicham_at allApr 12 00:55
_Hicham_python is a great languageApr 12 00:56
_Hicham_easy to learnApr 12 00:56
MinceRtacone: that's the oneApr 12 00:56
taconeMinceR: i'm the one :PApr 12 00:56
_Hicham_and Google uses it a lotApr 12 00:56
MinceRwhatever, Mr. Anderson.Apr 12 00:56
taconeand that could help avoiding .net to spread.Apr 12 00:56
seller_liarI know Hicham,but novell enforces people to use mono apps and IDEsApr 12 00:56
taconei just looked at googleupdate code (win only) and it's not c#Apr 12 00:57
_Hicham_fuck C#Apr 12 00:57
_Hicham_fuck .NETApr 12 00:57
_Hicham_fuck MonoApr 12 00:57
_Hicham_vive PythonApr 12 00:58
taconeschestowitz: novell took on mono before ms dealApr 12 00:58
_Hicham_novell is just an open whoreApr 12 00:58
taconewere they already poisoned or was it a good will attempt ?Apr 12 00:58
_Hicham_tacone : they have been paid secretly ...Apr 12 00:58
oiaohmThe company that had mono had other great techs.Apr 12 00:58
_Hicham_that was the prostitution timeApr 12 00:58
oiaohmThat novell wanted.Apr 12 00:58
oiaohmNovell really did not buy Mono.Apr 12 00:59
_Hicham_oiaohm : Mono was bought?Apr 12 00:59
MinceRit was Ximian. what did Ximian have that novell wanted?Apr 12 00:59
oiaohmBefore MS getting involved with Novell some of the developer of Mono though it was going to be droped by Novell.Apr 12 00:59
taconewell, copyright can be bought, after allApr 12 00:59
seller_liarWhy miguel is so obssesive for use m$ tecnologies?Apr 12 00:59
oiaohmXimian run a lot of projects.Apr 12 01:00
taconeapple bought their unix printing systemApr 12 01:00
seller_liarseller_liar: Miguel love relationship with microsoft is before novellApr 12 01:00
taconeseller_liar: he's an evangelist imhoApr 12 01:00
seller_liar Miguel love relationship with microsoft is before novellApr 12 01:00
_Hicham_Miguel is having a great time in RedmondApr 12 01:01
oiaohmXimian Connector and Red Carpet were the two major things Novell were after.Apr 12 01:01
seller_liaryes because Miguel is exchanging a lot of confidential documents about mono and monolightApr 12 01:01
oiaohmRed Carpet is what the opensuse build system is based off.Apr 12 01:01
oiaohmSo yes a very important bit of tech to get.Apr 12 01:02
seller_liarmiguel is stupid .He needs to learn about mexican peopleApr 12 01:02
seller_liarMexican people(Icaza) is abused by american people (Bill gates)Apr 12 01:03
seller_liarThe good plan to prevent mono on gnome is to port all apps to python and /or C++Apr 12 01:04
_Hicham_there is no great mono dependencies yetApr 12 01:05
schestowitzIt seems like glyn moody had an effect on the OSI already: 12 01:05
oiaohmDon't forget ValaApr 12 01:05
seller_liarbut people uses apps based on monoApr 12 01:05
seller_liarand this creates dependency for mono appsApr 12 01:05
oiaohmThey are reducing.Apr 12 01:05
oiaohmSimple problem mono applications are slow.Apr 12 01:05
oiaohmUsers normally change to something else that has performance.Apr 12 01:06
silentivmyepApr 12 01:06
_Hicham_tomboy is being rewritten in C++Apr 12 01:06
silentivmI dumped Mono apps because of speedApr 12 01:06
seller_liaroiaohm: but miguel and novell is enhacing mono speedApr 12 01:06
seller_liaroiaohm: We dont wait!Apr 12 01:06
oiaohmSo is the gcc complier.Apr 12 01:06
taconespeed is not important for many applicationsApr 12 01:06
_Hicham_banshee is just a copy of rhythmboxApr 12 01:07
schestowitzit's not bad, eitgherApr 12 01:07
taconethe future of the desktop lies in scripting.Apr 12 01:07
schestowitzBTW, Novell is promoting the notion of Mono being fastApr 12 01:07
oiaohmMono also is really heavy on memory.Apr 12 01:07
schestowitzIts employees bash Java in their blogApr 12 01:07
seller_liaroiaohm: we need to port banshee because rhytmbox is not developed anymoreApr 12 01:07
schestowitzThey compare Mono in self-flattering waysApr 12 01:07
taconememory footprint is bad even nowadays.Apr 12 01:07
schestowitzLies, dman lies, and you know the rest...Apr 12 01:07
schestowitzseller_liar: why port?Apr 12 01:08
schestowitzPut it in the latarApr 12 01:08
schestowitz*altarApr 12 01:08
seller_liarschestowitz: noApr 12 01:08
schestowitzThere are good music players alreadyApr 12 01:08
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schestowitzNovell will purposely package Mono stuffApr 12 01:08
seller_liarseller_liar: banshee have a good codebase and featuresApr 12 01:08
schestowitzit's an simplicity obligation to MSicaza to ship patent trapsApr 12 01:08
_Hicham_sellar_liar : features?Apr 12 01:08
seller_liarschestowitz: And we don t need to write from scratchApr 12 01:08
schestowitzAnd to boost .NET in devs' minds, spread the MS formats, etc,.Apr 12 01:09
_Hicham_what features are u talking about?Apr 12 01:09
seller_liar_Hicham_: media player and good interfaceApr 12 01:09
MinceRwell, some people spread the idea of Mono being fast, other people spread the idea of Java being fast. ;)Apr 12 01:10
_Hicham_sellar_liar : rhythmbox is actively developedApr 12 01:10
oiaohm  << So never found  this seller_liarApr 12 01:10
_Hicham_sellar_liar : 12 01:10
seller_liar_Hicham_: But XUL is not a dependency of gnomeApr 12 01:10
oiaohmrhytmbox has been passed by in many ways.Apr 12 01:10
oiaohmWhy does a media player need dependancy on gnome.Apr 12 01:10
oiaohmIt don't it is a media player.Apr 12 01:11
seller_liar_Hicham_: Rhythmbox development is very slowApr 12 01:11
_Hicham_sellar_liar : participate to itApr 12 01:11
seller_liaroiaohm: I know ,but gnome devs needs a real alternative using gtk interfaceApr 12 01:11
_Hicham_that is how open source goesApr 12 01:11
seller_liar_Hicham_: I 'm not a experienced code and I like Java , not cApr 12 01:11
oiaohmEnd users don't seller_liarApr 12 01:12
oiaohmIt don't perform they don't use.Apr 12 01:12
seller_liaroiaohm: But , for example , ubuntu includes a player by defaultApr 12 01:12
seller_liaroiaohm: Rhythmbox is dying and the good candidate is bansheeApr 12 01:12
_Hicham_fuck bansheeApr 12 01:13
DaemonFC 12 01:13
oiaohmbanshee suxs.Apr 12 01:13
seller_liaroiaohm: But I don like bansheeApr 12 01:13
oiaohmThere are more than enough candidates to replace RhythmboxApr 12 01:13
seller_liaroiaohm: Exaile is a good candidate ,but it's very immatureApr 12 01:13
seller_liaroiaohm: Gtk ones?Apr 12 01:13
oiaohmReally gnome developers really need to ask if they really do need a media player.Apr 12 01:14
seller_liaroiaohm: Yes because people is listening all the timesApr 12 01:14
_Hicham_there is already rhythmboxApr 12 01:14
_Hicham_totemApr 12 01:14
seller_liaroiaohm: People uses Mobiles devices a lotApr 12 01:14
seller_liar_Hicham_: yes ,but gnome devs to put more and more features all the timeApr 12 01:15
oiaohmMobile devices you want something that peforms.Apr 12 01:15
taconeit's not immature. is crashy.Apr 12 01:15
oiaohmModile devices are normally low on ram and resources and cannot afford disk thashing.Apr 12 01:15
oiaohmSo there battery lasts.Apr 12 01:16
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oiaohmSorry .net + mobile is a invalid argument.Apr 12 01:16
seller_liaroiaohm: NoApr 12 01:16
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seller_liaroiaohm: People uses sound players only to import songs from mobile devicesApr 12 01:16
Balrog_java + mobile makes more senseApr 12 01:17
seller_liaroiaohm: People don t install banshee in your playersApr 12 01:17
oiaohmMore players these days have Linux bases.Apr 12 01:17
seller_liarBut , I don t like banshee ,I like atunes ,jajuk  ,songbird, amarok and exaileApr 12 01:17
seller_liarAtunes and Jajuk are java-swing based , but the look-n-fell is not so good like songbirdApr 12 01:18
_Hicham_better stick with mozillaApr 12 01:18
oiaohmsongbird could be enbeded in a device.Apr 12 01:18
_Hicham_what is wrong with songbird?Apr 12 01:18
oiaohmSimple fact after the tomtom case device makers are not going to want to touch .net with a ten foot pole.Apr 12 01:19
twitter"People uses sound players only to import songs from mobile devices"Apr 12 01:19
twitterreally?Apr 12 01:19
tacone?Apr 12 01:19
_Hicham_great citationApr 12 01:19
_Hicham_quoteApr 12 01:19
seller_liar_Hicham_: songbird uses XUL ,not gtk , is memory hungerApr 12 01:20
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twitterthe sellar_liar said itApr 12 01:20
oiaohmMain reason MS just has proved there open promise is not with crap.Apr 12 01:20
_Hicham_sellar_liar : XUL is a shared component in GNOMEApr 12 01:20
twitterI thought it was crazy, but what do I know?Apr 12 01:20
oiaohmXUL in firefox uses GTK.Apr 12 01:20
seller_liarBut xul is not included in gnome by defaultApr 12 01:21
oiaohmBut in embeded devices it can go direct.Apr 12 01:21
_Hicham_sellar_liar : it isApr 12 01:21
seller_liaris not default binding for gnomeApr 12 01:21
_Hicham_sellar_liar : it is used by yelpApr 12 01:21
seller_liaronly default bindings are , py-gtk, gtk# , gtkmm, gtk and java-gnomeApr 12 01:21
_Hicham_sellar_liar : yelp is gnome help systemApr 12 01:21
oiaohmXUL is not a binding.Apr 12 01:22
oiaohmIts a webengine rendering feature.Apr 12 01:22
seller_liaroiaohm: the interfaceApr 12 01:22
oiaohmNoApr 12 01:22
seller_liargnome does not use xul interfaceApr 12 01:22
oiaohmGnome does in places.Apr 12 01:22
oiaohmyelp is a big one.Apr 12 01:22
_Hicham_yelp for exampleApr 12 01:22
seller_liarfor rendering help pages , not intefacApr 12 01:23
oiaohmXUL you can embed and operate from a webpage.Apr 12 01:23
oiaohmThat is what it was desiged to do.Apr 12 01:23
oiaohmYou don't need extra binding other than the GTK to html bindings.Apr 12 01:24
seller_liarbut gnome devs only uses gtk  and nothing moreApr 12 01:24
oiaohmTo use it.Apr 12 01:24
oiaohmXUL is included in the GTK bindings.Apr 12 01:24
_Hicham_sellar_liar : do u use firefox?Apr 12 01:24
seller_liaroiaohm: But it 's not for interfaceApr 12 01:24
seller_liaryesApr 12 01:24
_Hicham_sellar_liar : it is pure XULApr 12 01:25
seller_liar_Hicham_: it's not gtkApr 12 01:25
_Hicham_sellar_liar : what is not gtk?Apr 12 01:25
oiaohmDo GTK developers use Glade.Apr 12 01:25
_Hicham_yesApr 12 01:25
seller_liarxul is not gtkApr 12 01:25
_Hicham_xul is not gtkApr 12 01:26
oiaohmSorry to say XUL and Glade scripts are equal.Apr 12 01:26
seller_liargnome devs uses only gtk interfaceApr 12 01:26
oiaohmXUL gets translated on fly into GTK interfaces.Apr 12 01:26
seller_liarIt's very hard to convince gnome devs to use songbird by defaultApr 12 01:26
oiaohmGlade gets translated on fly into GTK interfaces.Apr 12 01:26
taconeon the fly is the keyApr 12 01:26
_Hicham_sellar_liar : do not use firefox and thunderbird thenApr 12 01:26
oiaohmMost GTK applications use Glade.Apr 12 01:27
_Hicham_glade made developing GUIs easyApr 12 01:27
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seller_liarthe big problem is to find a good alternative to rhythmboxApr 12 01:27
oiaohmMozilla is also working on a XUL to GTK code translator.Apr 12 01:28
oiaohmFor performance reasons.Apr 12 01:28
oiaohmSo really XUL in time becomes nothing more than Glade with a different design.Apr 12 01:28
_Hicham_oiaohm : that would be really greatApr 12 01:28
oiaohmThis is why the argement against XUL is so much crap.Apr 12 01:29
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seller_liaroiaohm: I'm not againt XUL.I like XUL and mozilla et alApr 12 01:29
seller_liaroiaohm: But is very hard to convinve gnome devs to use XUL by defaultApr 12 01:30
oiaohmBig thing gnome developers hate abotu XUL is it not locked to there platform.Apr 12 01:30
Balrog_but isn't Qt not locked to any particular platform?Apr 12 01:31
oiaohmQt is a platform.Apr 12 01:31
Balrog_hm.Apr 12 01:31
seller_liarI know , I know , But the real solution is help exaileApr 12 01:32
oiaohmexaile need google work on python.Apr 12 01:32
seller_liarExaile promotes python , pygtk and strenghens gnome apiApr 12 01:32
oiaohmUntil that is fixed up it will suck.Apr 12 01:32
seller_liaroiaohm: We can try to port exaile to pypyApr 12 01:32
seller_liarpypy is fastApr 12 01:33
oiaohmpypy is slow compared to what google is planing.Apr 12 01:33
seller_liaroiaohm: but is fast compared to cpythonApr 12 01:33
seller_liarand produces native code tooApr 12 01:33
oiaohmpython running at basically native speed.Apr 12 01:33
oiaohmTo be correct faster than current day gcc.Apr 12 01:33
seller_liaroiaohm: But google project in early stage .It takes 1 or 2 years to be usableApr 12 01:34
oiaohmRun pypy code out put though llvmApr 12 01:34
taconethey have js experience on their shoulders though.Apr 12 01:34
oiaohmNot that long.Apr 12 01:34
oiaohmgoogle is reusing lots of high performance code.Apr 12 01:35
taconei guess they're doing the same thing they did with v8Apr 12 01:35
oiaohmYep.Apr 12 01:35
seller_liaroiaohm: But we need urgent solution to remove mono!We cannot wait for googleApr 12 01:35
taconelolApr 12 01:35
taconelike a tomboy port ?Apr 12 01:36
taconemono is here to stay. we can just remove it from gnome.Apr 12 01:36
oiaohmLOLApr 12 01:36
seller_liarYes , but I don like c++.I Think python is better .But at the same time ,C++ was a good choice because of C# similarityApr 12 01:36
oiaohmComplete valaApr 12 01:36
taconepftApr 12 01:37
taconevala is not a threat to mono.Apr 12 01:37
oiaohmThat gives you a simple platform to migrate C# code to.Apr 12 01:37
oiaohmIt is a threat taconeApr 12 01:37
taconewe'll seeApr 12 01:37
oiaohmIt reduced ammount of work to port out.Apr 12 01:37
taconeit can help but that's not a threat.Apr 12 01:38
taconemono is not just linux.Apr 12 01:38
oiaohmNeither does Vala have to be.Apr 12 01:38
seller_liarthe good solution is....pythonApr 12 01:38
oiaohmVala can operate everywhere GTK can.Apr 12 01:38
taconeyes, but there's no interest to have vala anywhere else.Apr 12 01:38
taconeseller_liar: +1Apr 12 01:38
oiaohmMono applications for gnome use GTK.Apr 12 01:39
taconebut anyways i repeat, i think mono is here to stay.Apr 12 01:39
oiaohmSo really there is no point.Apr 12 01:39
seller_liartacone: I know , but we can reduce the dependencyApr 12 01:39
taconemono is getting used to make windows gamesApr 12 01:39
oiaohmIts go no more cross platform nature than GTK.Apr 12 01:39
taconeiphone gamesApr 12 01:39
taconeand so on.Apr 12 01:39
oiaohmso not following blender taconeApr 12 01:39
seller_liartacone: we can promote dot gnuApr 12 01:39
taconesure we can remove it from gnome.Apr 12 01:39
taconeat least that.Apr 12 01:39
oiaohmThank you MS for sueing tomtom.Apr 12 01:40
seller_liartwitter: we can help dot gnu project,Apr 12 01:40
schestowitzDaemonFC: good videoApr 12 01:40
taconeguys i'm going to bedApr 12 01:40
taconehave a good easter.Apr 12 01:40
oiaohmSo a far about 3 of those .net producing game companines are now looking at blender.Apr 12 01:40
seller_liartacone: we can help dot gnu projectApr 12 01:40
oiaohmMS fall out is incoming.Apr 12 01:40
tacone???Apr 12 01:40
taconewhat's the difference between dotgnu and mono ?Apr 12 01:41
oiaohmLicence taconeApr 12 01:41
oiaohmAnd funtionalityApr 12 01:41
tacone3?Apr 12 01:41
seller_liartacone: noApr 12 01:41
taconeso what ?Apr 12 01:41
seller_liardot gnu don t have a deal with microsoftApr 12 01:41
seller_liardot gnu is more open to people than monolightApr 12 01:42
taconeno one has to deal with microsoftApr 12 01:42
seller_liardot gnu is veryu confident with fsfApr 12 01:42
taconeyou can take mono source everytime.Apr 12 01:42
taconethe issue is patents.Apr 12 01:42
oiaohmProblem here .net  game companies are starting to work out its a problem.Apr 12 01:42
taconethat issue applies to dotgnu as mono.Apr 12 01:42
seller_liardot gnu don t use ,altough it can run asp.netApr 12 01:42
taconegoing to bedApr 12 01:43
oiaohmBlender game engine is being improved to the point that you will be able to create a fully funtional 3d game without a single line of code.Apr 12 01:43
taconegood byeApr 12 01:43
seller_liarbyeApr 12 01:43
twitterlaterApr 12 01:43
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oiaohmFlow chart programming is more compadible with artists.Apr 12 01:43
seller_liarfor destroying microsoft plans ,we need plan projectsApr 12 01:46
seller_liarRoy is an analyst , but we need projectistsApr 12 01:46
oiaohmNot exactly.Apr 12 01:46
seller_liarwhy?Apr 12 01:46
oiaohm  Blender is basically going to tech jump.Apr 12 01:47
oiaohmReason commerical companies worked out the problem.Apr 12 01:47
oiaohmSo now improving something not .net to do there job.Apr 12 01:47
oiaohmBlender also contains a python engine.Apr 12 01:47
seller_liaroiaohm: a good app which I like is art of illusionApr 12 01:48
seller_liaroiaohm: It uses a java engineApr 12 01:48
oiaohmBlenders core is c++Apr 12 01:48
seller_liar 12 01:48
oiaohmNot a game engine.Apr 12 01:49
oiaohmBlender is a combination game engine editor.Apr 12 01:49
seller_liaroiaohm: No it's notApr 12 01:49
oiaohmIt was first designed by a game company before it went opensource.Apr 12 01:50
seller_liaroiaohm: Game engine are purely in c and c++Apr 12 01:50
oiaohmSo is benders core engine.Apr 12 01:50
seller_liarthere are some java game engines like monkeyengineApr 12 01:50
oiaohmYou use the same engine in blender to edit in as final game.Apr 12 01:50
oiaohmSo its true what you see what you get game production.Apr 12 01:51
seller_liaroiaohm: Yes ,but I think people prefer to use another engineApr 12 01:51
oiaohmFor rapid development no.Apr 12 01:51
oiaohmCloser the engine and editor is intergrated the better.Apr 12 01:51
oiaohmBlender is also a 3d movie prodution tool.  So you cut seen videos can be done in it.Apr 12 01:52
oiaohmBlenders interface will be modernised its 3d engine will be modernised and we have MS to thank for the 3d engine update from using tomtom.Apr 12 01:53
oiaohmusing/sueingApr 12 01:53
oiaohmThe key is getting commerical companies in that can afford to pay full time programs to break mono hold.Apr 12 01:54
seller_liarThe only way to destroy these attacks is destroying microsoftApr 12 01:54
oiaohmNoApr 12 01:54
oiaohmNovell has a lot of power because it provides large numbers of full time programmers to mono.Apr 12 01:55
oiaohmThen those programmers work in gnome and other projects.Apr 12 01:55
seller_liaroiaohm: Novell prefers to invest in mono instead of ati driversApr 12 01:55
seller_liaroiaohm: the only way is porting mono apps to python!Apr 12 01:55
oiaohm kontact and the like are backed by commerical companies.Apr 12 01:56
oiaohmSo novell programmers cannot really attack them.Apr 12 01:56
oiaohmpython is pointless.Apr 12 01:57
seller_liaroiaohm:Microsoft can attack for novellApr 12 01:57
oiaohmmono can run python.Apr 12 01:57
seller_liaroiaohm: Of course ,It' s not cApr 12 01:57
oiaohmironpython.Apr 12 01:57
oiaohmSo novell developers can try to pull any code in python back to Mono.Apr 12 01:58
seller_liarI know , but gnome devs don t use ipythonApr 12 01:58
oiaohmGetting projects strong.Apr 12 01:58
oiaohmSupportedApr 12 01:58
seller_liarbut the difference is ,we can remove ipython and use python without the need the change the codeApr 12 01:58
oiaohmand out of reach is the true solution.Apr 12 01:58
oiaohmStrong depends on commerical support.Apr 12 01:58
oiaohmAmarok has a few full time coders of there own due to commerical support.Apr 12 01:59
seller_liaroiaohm:Features is not everything, ethics is more than powerApr 12 01:59
_Hicham_Novell contributes to GNOMEApr 12 01:59
_Hicham_there is EvolutionApr 12 01:59
_Hicham_NetworkManagerApr 12 02:00
seller_liarAnd ,we create mono-less ditrosApr 12 02:00
_Hicham_commercial support is greatApr 12 02:00
oiaohmNo matter how good ethics are if you don't have the programmers to maintain the code.Apr 12 02:00
_Hicham_the RedHat way !!!Apr 12 02:00
oiaohmThe program will bitrot and die.Apr 12 02:00
oiaohmThat is what has happen to rythmboxApr 12 02:01
seller_liaroiaohm: If people don t have interest , we don t need to codeApr 12 02:01
_Hicham_I like how RedHat contributes to LinuxApr 12 02:01
oiaohmInterest + Time seller_liarApr 12 02:01
seller_liaroiaohm: Rythmbox lacks of independent coders , we don t need support from companiesApr 12 02:01
oiaohmCommerical support allows coders with interest to work full time on the projects.Apr 12 02:02
schestowitzThis is a recommended talk: 12 02:02
oiaohmSo making project strong from attack.Apr 12 02:02
oiaohmThe more companies you have in the mix the better.Apr 12 02:02
oiaohmSo you don't end up with Novell and Gnome were they are the dominate full time programmer provider.Apr 12 02:03
seller_liaroiaohm: Are you sure?Apr 12 02:04
oiaohmBasically gnome is not heathly from a support side.  This lead to the heavy mono code base.Apr 12 02:04
oiaohmLead of Mono was the lead of the Gnome project at one point seller_liarApr 12 02:04
_Hicham_oiaohm : GNOME is hosted by RedHatApr 12 02:04
seller_liaroiaohm: NovuelApr 12 02:04
seller_liaroiaohm: The problem of rythmbox is the use of a bad language to code a playerApr 12 02:06
oiaohmLook at the code history of rythmboxApr 12 02:06
oiaohmHow many full time coders have it had.Apr 12 02:06
oiaohmYou need them to keep good quality code.Apr 12 02:06
seller_liaroiaohm: And the second : rhythmbox authors is not capable to attract more peopleApr 12 02:07
oiaohmYep bit rotting project.Apr 12 02:07
seller_liarthe project page is sooo uglyApr 12 02:07
seller_liarand outdatedApr 12 02:07
oiaohmYep.Apr 12 02:07
oiaohmbit rotApr 12 02:07
seller_liarand the use of c language for a player is a not good thingApr 12 02:08
oiaohmYou need commericals to prevent taht.Apr 12 02:08
seller_liarwe need more documentation to help beginner coders to codeApr 12 02:08
seller_liarnot ewveryone know to programApr 12 02:08
seller_liardocumentation is more important than featuresApr 12 02:09
oiaohmWhere does good documentation come from.Apr 12 02:09
oiaohmNormally commericals.Apr 12 02:09
seller_liarand c languafe don t help codersApr 12 02:09
seller_liaroiaohm: noApr 12 02:09
seller_liarauthors can spend timeApr 12 02:09
seller_liarauthors only thinks in features, but not in documentationApr 12 02:10
oiaohmBecause the commerical coders document there code.Apr 12 02:10
oiaohmvery well because they are required to.Apr 12 02:10
seller_liareveryone with good skill can documentApr 12 02:10
seller_liaroiaohm: Not all the timeApr 12 02:10
oiaohmIf the source code is well documented.Apr 12 02:10
seller_liaroiaohm: Some features can posponedApr 12 02:10
oiaohmCreating good documents on top of that is simpler.Apr 12 02:11
seller_liaroiaohm: Not only source code ,but we need to explain the archictecture, description of algorithms and a lot moreApr 12 02:11
oiaohmYesApr 12 02:11
seller_liaroiaohm: For me doxygen docs helps nothing!Apr 12 02:11
oiaohmblender works on proposals system.Apr 12 02:11
oiaohmSo to add features you have to write proposals.Apr 12 02:12
oiaohmThat describe what you are doing.Apr 12 02:12
oiaohmBlender was a commerical designed program and has ran like one after it changed to open source.Apr 12 02:12
seller_liaroiaohm: but we need to explain the algorithms  in a easy wayApr 12 02:12
seller_liaroiaohm: a good startup is to explain EVERY commit done, in a easy languageApr 12 02:13
seller_liarand after join all commits descriptions in a easy bookApr 12 02:13
oiaohmLinux kernel also runs very well.Apr 12 02:13
oiaohmSince it taken on the commerical ways.Apr 12 02:13
oiaohmNon descriptive commits don't get to enter the Linux kernel.Apr 12 02:14
oiaohmNot creating user documenation also equals patch being rejected.Apr 12 02:14
seller_liaroiaohm: Yes , but apart off all discussionApr 12 02:14
oiaohmNot really.Apr 12 02:14
DaemonFC"The reason they're trying to push Windows 7 out is cause there's a lot of issues with Vista, and uhhh, people don't like Vista" - Logitech SupportApr 12 02:14
DaemonFC:)Apr 12 02:14
seller_liaroiaohm: We need to explain for all society what is important is ethics not featuresApr 12 02:15
oiaohmThat only started happening in Linux after Linus become a full time paid programmer to look after linux.Apr 12 02:15
oiaohmPart time maintainers really don't have the time to enforce the rules effectively.Apr 12 02:15
seller_liarI prefer a free software than powerfulk proprietary softwareApr 12 02:15
oiaohmFree software needs commerical support to function well.Apr 12 02:16
seller_liaroiaohm: No ,Apr 12 02:16
oiaohmDoes not need to go propriertaty.Apr 12 02:16
seller_liaroiaohm: Free software SOMETIMES needs commercial support to fight proprietary softwareApr 12 02:17
oiaohmNoApr 12 02:17
schestowitzOk, I'm done for now... 12 02:17
oiaohmit a maintainership issueApr 12 02:17
seller_liaroiaohm: NoApr 12 02:17
oiaohmWithout full time maintainersApr 12 02:17
oiaohmCode quality will degrade.Apr 12 02:17
seller_liaroiaohm: Maintenance is not a problemApr 12 02:17
schestowitzHow prophetic for 2004.. he was right and now it shows a lot betterApr 12 02:17
seller_liaroiaohm: Features are the problem ,Apr 12 02:18
seller_liaroiaohm: Maintenance is manageable using bugzilla and other toolsApr 12 02:18
oiaohmAdding features without maintenance ends up without a program that works.Apr 12 02:18
seller_liaroiaohm: If coders don t have time ...Apr 12 02:18
oiaohmcommerical support cures the time issue.Apr 12 02:19
seller_liaroiaohm: Is always better a software which works than bugged softwareApr 12 02:19
oiaohmYou can run a bugzilla but if you have no full time coders to target complex problems.Apr 12 02:19
oiaohmcomplex problems will remain unfixed for extreamly long times.Apr 12 02:20
seller_liaroiaohm: But the bugs are finite , and needs only a coderApr 12 02:20
oiaohmSo a project with full time coders will be able to provide more features look better and basiclaly kill the project.Apr 12 02:20
oiaohmThat is what has happened to rythmbox vs bansheeApr 12 02:21
seller_liaroiaohm: Free software need full time coders for fight proprietary softwareApr 12 02:21
oiaohmNoApr 12 02:21
oiaohmFree software needs full time coders to stay alive even against other open source.Apr 12 02:21
seller_liaroiaohm: If windows media player and other proprietary players don t exist,thenApr 12 02:21
twitterfree software can have full time coders, why not?Apr 12 02:21
seller_liarpeople don t need more and more featuresApr 12 02:21
twitterRMS worked as full time as he couldApr 12 02:22
oiaohmOpen source media players would compete with each other.Apr 12 02:22
oiaohmProprietray is not requred at all.Apr 12 02:22
schestowitzgnApr 12 02:22
twitterfree software does not compete so much as it solves separate goalsApr 12 02:22
twittergnApr 12 02:22
seller_liarpeople wants more and more features because these people look good features in proprietarey players and people want the same in opensource playersApr 12 02:22
oiaohmSame as between open source vs open soruceApr 12 02:23
twitterlol, features move from free to non free, not the other way aroundApr 12 02:23
seller_liarproprietary players forces features in free softwareApr 12 02:23
oiaohmPeople use ammork then want some of ammork features in other players.Apr 12 02:23
seller_liarnoApr 12 02:23
twitterAmarok has been ahead of the field for yearsApr 12 02:23
seller_liartwitter: features like stupid install shield have started in monopolysoftApr 12 02:23
oiaohmAll software competes with everything in it class.Apr 12 02:23
twitterinstall shield?  who needs that?Apr 12 02:24
seller_liartwitter: The amarok case is to destroy windows media playerApr 12 02:24
oiaohmThere is no real competition divide between proprietarey and open soruce.Apr 12 02:24
seller_liartwitter: Amarok have won the batlle and more , amarok surpassed the enemyApr 12 02:24
twitter?  Amarok is for playing mediaApr 12 02:24
seller_liartwitter: windows media player tooApr 12 02:24
oiaohmFor project to stay alive they have to wake up they are not above rules of software development just by being open source.Apr 12 02:25
twitterWindows media player is for extracting money from users, musicians and recording companies.  Different goals, different results.  The only thing WMP has in common with free software is that it sometimes plays musicApr 12 02:25
seller_liaroiaohm: yes , but the real problem in opensource is the features , not mainteinanceApr 12 02:25
twitterfree software is making it's own rulesApr 12 02:26
oiaohmFeatures and mainteinance is linked.Apr 12 02:26
_Hicham_gnApr 12 02:26

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