06.19.09
Poll: 72% Say No to Mono in GNU/Linux (and Other Mono News)
Solang photo manager requires no Mono
Summary: Mono poll (monopol) and news about the subject
TUX Machines, which is an excellent GNU/Linux news site, has just conducted a little survey and the results — however inaccurate they may be — indicate that the large majority or respondents is not in favour of putting Mono in GNU/Linux. In fact, 72% say “no” to Mono. The latest episode of Linux Outlaws deals with this subject too. Skip to 13mins for a short debate on Mono & Fedora. A lot more starts around 49mins. LinuxToday readers too are quite clearly annoyed by inclusions of Mono by default. Tony Manco points out that Ubuntu even considers leaving the GIMP out due to space constraints while totally ignoring heaps of space which Mono and Mono-based applications consume. See this page for proof:
The GIMP
* rickspencer3 proposes pulling the gimp from the CD:
o It takes up a lot of space that we need for couchdb, etc…
o F-Spot has key features, like crop and red-eye removal
o It’s a power user tool, users shouldn’t stumble into it
* Discussion points brought up that
o The gimp currently uses 26 megs of space, 20 of which are documentation, which could be moved online
o The gimp, though not totally user friendly, is very useful, and does not require “importing” to edit
* The current plan of record is:
o Keep the gimp in the default install
o If we need the room, switch the gimp to online only documentation
o If we still need the room, kick it out altogether
Over in Launchpad, there is an itemised list attached to mononono and a new entry highlights the fact that the Mono patent covenant is considered discriminatory. It’s only good for Novell.
The patent covenant is probably to be considered discriminatory in reference to other programs.
What follow apparently means that use of covered technologies, such as Mono is to be considered unsafe (for covenant purposes) for developing parts of the software cited below.
read the patent covenant:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/…
Martin Kaba, a Free software advocate, recommends replacing Tomboy with GNote.
Here is where Gnote practically steps in. Gnote is a port of Tomboy to C++. No Mono, No Novell.
Even the press wrote about the subject, reminding readers that Fedora is already distancing itself from Mono and replacing Tomboy with Gnote.
Fedora feels it’s something to worry about, and that’s why there are plans on the table to exclude Mono from Fedora 12 — in part due to the fact that applications that would nominally require Mono are being swapped for others that don’t. A big part of it is unease about the licensing, but no small amount of unease comes from the fact that .NET itself is a Microsoft creation.
[...]
Should Fedora exclude Mono from Fedora? Sure, why not? It’s their distribution; they’re free to include or exclude whatever they like from it. There’s nothing stopping anyone from adding it on after the fact, or creating a whole derivative distribution that adds Mono back in.
When Tomboy is no longer part of the default ‘package’ or distribution (people are free to install whatever they wish afterwards), then at least in Ubuntu there is fspot to worry about. Three readers have just recommended a new replacement for fspot as well. Check out Solang, which makes a lot of headlines at the moment.
It currently runs on a up-to-date Fedora 10+ installation and Debian Sid (with Gdl patch applied).
Here is a better introduction and installation guidance for Ubuntu users. There is no lack of powerful libre applications that are independent from Novell’s Mono. █
the11thplague said,
June 19, 2009 at 7:40 am
Ok, may I say it ? F-spot SUCKS !
Well, as almost all the Gnome photo viewer (gthumb makes no exception)
Really, Gnome lacking some of the most BASIC programs that a common user needs. Some example ?
F-spot still doesn’t animate gifs
Network manager sucks. Until Ubuntu 9.04 it was unable to even keep an assigned IP.
there is no such thing as Paint (tuxpaint is not installed by default and cannot handles only fixed size images)
Yes, I like The GIMP, but I DO NOT like explaining my friends how to cut out a piece of photo.
So…The OS with the best kernel of the world won’t let you do the most common tasks. WTF ?!
Tip: if you need more space in your CD, strip Evoultion out, noone uses it.
btw if you something like paint for Gnome, please tell me. I seriously need it.
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 7:58 am
Gwenview handles videos too.
Tuxpaint is not intended for this purpose. For vector graphics, if GIMP is not something people are used to (not the same as being “difficult”), Inkspace, Xara and Krita are worth a shot. I mean, come on. You’re not claiming GNU/Linux suffers for not having paint.exe, right?
Is it so much easier in other programs? And if so, why? Habits acquired in schools that Adobe et al exploit for training?
What do Windows and OS X have (by default) that puts them ahead? Paint.exe? Windows Explorer (for photo management)? OS X is not much better off, either.
the11thplague Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
[quote]I mean, come on. You’re not claiming GNU/Linux suffers for not having paint.exe, right?[/quote]
Yes, I do. It sounded stupid to me too, but actually people keep asking me, and if you search on the net, A LOT of images with writings are modified using paint. Why ? Because it’s simple. Too simple ? Maybe. but at least you don’t have to search through right click SUB-menus to to that. It’s not training, it’s just having a big button in front of me to do what I need. Anything more complex is not easy enough.
Also, most people don’t even know what vectorial graphic is. In order to suggest such a program to my sister (for example) I should explain that too… They just don’t need vectorial programs.
BTW I have The GIMP installed on Win too, and I use it to cut out photos, because it allows for more precision than Paint, but com’on ! I don’t think GIMP was meant to do such a stupid task, it wouldn’t take so much time to load if it was meant for things like this. Not being able to find a simple photo editor for linux is really, really puzzling me. How can it be ?
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
What you might want is Nathive.
the11thplague Reply:
June 20th, 2009 at 12:39 am
Thanks, I’ll try it.
btw I can’t install gwenview’s deb package on ubuntu, gdebi says some dependencies are not satisfied “Error: … kdelibs5 (>= 4:4.2.4)”. The latest version I can get through Synapric is the 4.2.2. I’ll ask on forums later…
NotZed Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 10:30 am
“Really, Gnome lacking some of the most BASIC programs that a common user needs. Some example ? …”
The problem with a project like GNOME is that it’s only as strong as the people willing to contribute to it. As with many projects, people are pushed away because of politics and non-technical issues and that just hurts the entire effort. You end up with an ‘in-crowed’ ‘cabal’ who make all of the meaningful decisions, who have commercial and political interests calling the shots. This is never very healthy.
I must say however, that after having recently tried KDE … GNOME is still the only valid choice for any ‘desktop’ . Although personally I simply use a simple window manager with a manually configurable menu, and an xterm to run everything (else) I (ever) need. KDE is really … (surprisingly) awful. It’s worse than Microsoft Windows XP.
Although I no longer have (or wish) anything to do with it, I am a little sad that Evolution is no longer considered a valid email program by some people. I spent 6 years of my life ‘that i’ll never get back’ trying in vain to make it a competent and useful product, and in as much as possible (without getting fired, although i came close a few times) attempting to focus on performance and reliability over features or anything else. I was never happy that it was turned from being a ‘good email programme’ to being merely ‘a clone of microsoft outlook’ – you should’ve seen some of the code we had to dump because cloning outlook’s way of doing things was just rubbish. Unfortunately the ‘boss’ made the final decisions in the end, and we were too busy on top of that simply working around bugs in other (server) software to `go to the next leve’l (amongst other issues). Still, when I left it, it still did some stuff better than any desktop client i’ve ever encountered did (before, that is – i’ve only used an online service since), But I haven’t used it once since, and have heard some things haven’t been changed for the better. Anyway, I’m still pretty confident there is some following for it, and i’m pretty certain there are few if any alternatives in the same sphere even now.
PS ‘eet’ … you’re awesome, I haven’t laughed so hard in ages. Who ever said you Germans didn’t have such a great sense of humour was sadly mistaken!
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Thunderbird with extensions is a wonderful client.
max stirner Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 11:41 am
+1
the11thplague Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Sorry, I didn’t meant to say it was a bad program. It’s just that most people use web interfaces these days.
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Photoshop is going (partly) Web based. Google, I believe, has something similar.
eet said,
June 19, 2009 at 8:25 am
A survey with such an ill-defined question is worthless.
Mono will never get into Linux because Linux is the kernel, you dumbos! :p
Needs Sunlight said,
June 19, 2009 at 8:51 am
Part of it is Mono sucking. It’s not just a matter of sqashing M$ fake FOSS. It’s also a matter of restoring the quality and letting packages rise or fall based on technical merits, not how many shills any given company can hire or insert into the distro to advance inferior tools.
eet Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 8:59 am
No mono application without big demand from the user-side would stand a chance of becoming defaulted with a distro. You really think that Ubuntu’s thinking about switching to Banshee just because of some ‘shills’, a conspiracy to push Banshee down Mark Shuttleworth’s throat?
In that case, you are beyond help.
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 9:09 am
“The truth finally comes out!
“Brian Goldfarb of Microsoft said in part: “it is not limited just to Novell as Mono is.”
“This tells us everything. It says quite clearly that Microsoft does see Mono as infringing their patents and that the covenant between MS and Novell gives Novell’s users exclusive protection for using Mono specifically.
“Now what we have long known is clear to see for everyone.
“Mono is a potential MS target and after 4 years not even Novell or their users are immune.
“Now who can question the wisdom of steering clear of all things Miguel/Novell?”
http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-10535-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=47762&messageID=890012
eet Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 9:22 am
WHERE does a Mr Goldfarb say that? There is no source for the quote…
WHO is Mr Goldfarb and what does he do of Microsoft? I never heard of him.
HOW does what you link relate? It’s just an odd comment to a derogatory article by the notorious hater Ms. Blankenzorn. And Ms B. doesn’t mention a Mr Goldfarb…
So, this is pure fantasy. And even if it wasn’t, I don’t give a shit about what Mr Goldfarb thinks – or Microsoft, for that matter…
eet Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 9:27 am
…and as I just saw, Ms B noticed that herself and replied to that strange comment you’ve linked to:
Blankenhorn:
“Straw man argument. I never said, or implied, that the use of Moonlight was limited to Novell distributions of Linux.”
How come you didn’t see that, Roy? Because you DON’T CARE whether a claim against Novell is true, as long as it is against Novell. Lousy (no) research, as usual…
You are quoting shit, as always.
saulgoode said,
June 19, 2009 at 11:28 am
eet Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
A COMMENTER to an article who just signed ‘Brian Goldfarb (Microsoft)?!?
Well, now serious, he’ll have to be an important man! (Not some troll who is trying to make himself interesting and stirr things up a bit).
Oh, boy! You are naive…
saulgoode said,
June 19, 2009 at 1:29 pm
You claimed there was “no source” for the quote. I was merely pointing out that there was one. You may ascribed whatever level of legitimacy you wish to the source; still your statement was erroneous and invited correction.
eet Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Ah – sorry, I meant Roy must be naive to attribute any importance to that source. I should have been more clear.
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 19th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Goldfarb is one of their main men in this area. The quote is very revealing.
John Hunt said,
June 21, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Is this FUD blog or something? Nobody is going to replace the gimp with f-spot, they’re entirely different programs (lightroom/photoshop.)
Mono has improved the linux desktop by allowing more programmers to write programs for linux. Nevermind if f-spot is any good etc..
By removing mono, choice is being removed. If you don’t like mono, just un-install it or use a different distribution. Choice is what makes linux great. Don’t remove it.
Oh, and also, Banshee fucking rules and beats all other music players on Linux.
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 21st, 2009 at 7:03 pm
You have ignored the two most important issues — that Mono helps Microsoft and also poses a patent threat.
Honest Injin Reply:
June 21st, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Ok, what has Banshee that isn’t in Amarok?
(I know Gnome/KDE, but ya did say "beats all other music players on Linux."
(asking honestly, maybe you can convert me… ;^ )
lachlan said,
June 21, 2009 at 7:51 pm
gpaint is pretty much the same as mspaint.
Shane Coyle Reply:
June 21st, 2009 at 7:58 pm
As is KolourPaint, except for alot more functionality than I recall in mspaint, like more formats than just bmp, image effects like emboss and such, but then again I haven’t touched winders since early 2000′s, so maybe paint.exe got more advanced?
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 21st, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Wine was created specifically to run ‘killer apps’ like paint.exe.
Shane Coyle Reply:
June 21st, 2009 at 8:07 pm
OK, is it me, or when you click on a comment in recent comments on the stories page, do you end up at the ‘top’ of the comments, instead of the actual comment itself (annoying because nested comments means that bottom comment does not necessarily mean latest comment)?
((FF 3.0.11, Slax 6.1.1 heavily hacked))
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 21st, 2009 at 8:19 pm
Indeed. There is something dodgy about the new IRC applet, which steals focus. Freenode is blocking access from mibbit.
Is there a hack for avoiding this (it’s an iframe)?
Shane Coyle Reply:
June 21st, 2009 at 8:37 pm
OK, I see that. If you right-click, and open in new tab, it seems to go to comment, not sure if this is the fault of firefox or wordpress, gonna try with opera and konqueror, let’s see…
Konq 4.2.4 works as expected, right to the comment, as does Opera 9.64 (my same Slax-6.1.1 based KDE4 computer).
Anyone else experiencing this on Firefox? Could you list version as well (specifically, anyone using 3.5???)
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 21st, 2009 at 8:41 pm
We may also have a slow scrolling issue in FF 3.5 (based on beta 2).
David "Lefty" Schlesinger said,
June 22, 2009 at 12:35 am
Same thing happens on the latest FF 3.5…
Penguin Pete said,
June 24, 2009 at 3:37 pm
There’s just one difference I see with regards to the Gimp: There’s about maybe 20 people breathing on the planet who do not have their craniums inserted up their nether passage when it comes to the Gimp. That’s the ten-member development team, me, and an estimate of a few others.
The way Microsoft tries to shoot down Linux pales in comparison to how legions of Adobe zealots try to shoot down the Gimp. Let F-Spot take the heat for a while!
Good, F-Spot can be the new target for all the Adobe fanaticism. And don’t forget! It must be an exact, pixel-perfect clone of Photoshop down to the logo, or else it is the greatest evil in history including the Holocaust, just like the Phtotrolls claim about Gimp now.
Finally! People will pick on some other program and leave those of us who appreciate the Gimp as being the greatest image editing application ever made, completely perfect and needing nothing changed, to use it in peace.
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 24th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
If only I knew how many “Photoshop guards” are PR agents and how many are just Photoshop users defending their territory, so to speak.